And may I add, even though you’re a Christian, don’t for a moment think that you’re not on the hit list as well. If you don’t conform to their hicksville brand of what they pass off as religion, they’re likely to come gunning for you as much as gays. As one famous retard of similar mentality said, “You are either with us or against us”. And see where that brand of stupidity brought the world to.

but regarding the groups you mentioned, are they doing any good at all from a secular perspective? are they helping people in any way? there are other organisations with a non-religious slant that you could approach for help. lets say you have family problems. If you approach an organisation like focus on the family which is i think overtly Christian, shouldn’t you expect Christian themes to surface? If that’s something you’re not comfortable with, go and ask a group like AWARE for advice and help. These groups are here to cater to the different beliefs and needs of individuals. Let’s keep that plurality if we can.

hey HT. i don’t think there’s anything in your post i disagree with. as a Christian i’m also rather embarrassed at the way this saga has unfolded. there are issues which remain unresolved, like you mentioned, and accountability is paramount. i think Josie and co have to be much more candid about many things. of course theres the issue of the 90K EGM.

Yes, I am angry. Angry at the dangers posed to our society by a bunch of far right extremists hiding behind religion. Angry at the crude sneaky way that they crept into a perfectly innocuous if somewhat sleepy organisation and steeplejacked it for their own ends. Angry that they attempted to justify their acts (and tell outrights lies – that’s a fact – Josie and Maureen lied on national TV) and used a perfectly innocuous (I’m beginning to like this word) CSE program to vilify and defame the old AWARE people who had never done any thing to them as well as normal people working in the MOE and elsewhere, who will no doubt be affected adversely by the witchhunt over the CSE. Angry that they are callously willing to drag our society into a larger conflict (which fortunately did not materlaiise) to further their stupid agenda. Angry that editorials like the one I highlighed to you glibly argue that such nutcases had the right to do what they did coz their intentions were good which is diametrically opposed to what the Archbishop and various ministers have said, and yet no one takes them to account. Angry that posters like Curious and Watchman continue to push their brand of bigotry and hatred without any regard for the consequences.

The consequences are there? Should there not be an accounting? Held resposible for one’s actions? No. I can’t make up (even without the kissing).

I am not so philosophical to argue about truths and interpretations. But I do know the facts when they are staring at me right in the face.

“there are proper channels and venues for religious teaching.”

Yes. And if you and I can understand that, why is it so difficult for the unrepentant Pastor, the Great FM and their devout followers to understand that?

It was never a homosexual issue – it was never a pro-gay issue – it was never a CSE issue – it was never a 377A issue. These lies were cynically pushed and manipulated. Many people, myself included, don’t care about gay rights and are more worried about what our kids see on the internet than the CSE. For the more basic amongst us, it just offends the sense of fair play when we see an obvious steeplejacking. For the more cerebral amongst us, disquiet arises on understanding the true agenda of the perpetrators, the hardline stance taken and tactics used by their supporters. For the more religious amongst us, it is an affront to their values and I daresay this even includes Christianity itself (don’t tell lies and don’t bear false witness). For the more secular amongst us, why on earth does one take over a secular civic group by stealth if you don’t agree with what they are doing?

But you may disagree with me that the CSE program was innocuos – you may even argue that it was *gasp” pushing an alternative lifestyle. So what do you do? Duh, you bring it up. You go to the top of the church tower and shout out “We, this group of people, feel that this program is wrong and should be reviewed”. That is what a truly concerned parent / lawyer / law professor / law faculty dean / pastor / nutcase can write to the press, write to the MOE, get up a petition, whatever. That would be appropriate and also easy.

I mean, are they stupid or are they stupid? But if they are not stupid, then what does it make them? The alternative is scary indeed.

“anyway i hope you don’t end up thinking that everybody who disagrees with you is deluded. deluded is quite a strong word to use, handle with care.”

Point taken. I do apologise for the strong language (full repentant apology and not just mumbling “stand corrected” through gritted teeth becoz Mr Archbishop is squeezing my nuts). Making up? Not any time soon. Not until the danger to our society is over which I fear is sometime away. Not until religious extremists and their apologists learn to practice their faith within themselves and their community and stop trying to push their views on the rest of us (the editorial mentioned in my earlier post is enlightening) coz “that’s the right thing to do”. Seriously. And this is truly for the sake of our children.

Of course forgiveness does not require repentance on the transgressor’s part (though I believe Christians believe otherwise, in which case, there is even a stronger case for us not moving on!)

‘But when they attempt to drive rifts in our society, by polarising sections of our society by religion and by fearmongering against a minority group, the dangers are obvious’

Agreed. Insofar as this has been done, it has been detrimental to the cohesiveness of our society. As many of the voices on TOC have demonstrated, this event has left its scars. But we need both sides to make moves to heal the rift, and I think we are doing this now. We are disagreeing in an agreeable manner. Talking things out reasonably is a good way to proceed.

‘If you don’t think so, frankly you’re either deceptive or deluding yourself.’

If only we could organise a survey amongst the Singaporean Masses to see just what the broader public feels about this. Well I can tell you sincerely that I’m not being deceptive when I say I think this incident is somewhat innocuous (not totally of course). As for being deluded, well, the very fact that I’m here trying to discuss the situation rationally does take some of the ‘concertedness’ out of the ‘movement’ doesn’t it ? anyway i hope you don’t end up thinking that everybody who disagrees with you is deluded. deluded is quite a strong word to use, handle with care.

the person who says ‘there are no truths, only interpretations’ is liable to be asked ‘is that a truth, or just an interpretation?’. In that sense I am in agreement with the article. I’m a Christian, of course I believe in moral absolutes. I am entitled to believe in them as much as you are entitled to think that I am deluded for doing so. But of course, our secularity entails that I should not be imposing my beliefs on you, and vice-versa. and i don’t like the part when they accorded credibility to Josie’s accusation that “It has now become a single-objective organisation’. On channel newsasia, she mentioned in her interview that AWARE had become too diversified; these are two contradictory statements.

I believe the goal of secular education is to equip people with the critical skills needed to succeed in the world that we live in now. so i agree with you that there shouldnt be proselytizing in the classroom. there are proper channels and venues for religious teaching.

i’m not asking people to kiss and make up. im just asking them to make up.
i’m not asking you to sit down and shut up, i’m asking you to sit down and type on your keyboard. Silence will only exacerbate the rift. I’m glad we are having a discussion. But you are very angry apparently, and if I were in your shoes I would probably be wary too. There is really nothing I can do in my individual capacity to change how you feel, nor would i want to. you can make your own decisions and choices independently. All I can do is offer my take on this matter and hope that it contributes positively to conflict resolution.

It would be unfair to ascribe a motive to you but I certainly do not agree with you that we should “move along”. Sounds too similar to “shut up and sit down”. Serious damage has been done to our society. An enormous amount of AWARE’s money has been spent without authorisation. The careers of many at the MOE have been jeopardised by the baseless allegations of the non-existent pro-homosexual agenda. A perfectly good progam to help educate children has been tarred. Moderate Christians have been hurt by the accusations and secularists have been labelled as immoral, pro-gay and evil. Fearmongering abounds. Derek Hong has crossed the line and when forced to, ground out a statement of regret (that he failed) and not even a proper apology. All of us, pro and against Josie have spent much time, efforts and costs in our respective efforts.

In my view, the people responsible must be brought to justice. Not divine justice but secular justice in accordance with the laws of Singapore. Like all concerned parents, I am amazed that the authorities have been so lenient with all these crackpots in our midst.

I am also a concerned parent. I am concerned that my children when they go to school are faced with such extremists proselytising their radical brand of religion, hatred and bigotry. I know this sounds more boring than claims of “pro-gay” and “anal sex” but I think its a lot more dangerous.

They must reap what they have sowed and I for one am in no mood to kiss and make up. After all the religious right may complain that kissing and making up is yet another immoral activity.

Innocuous? Sorry, I don’t think so. Our great FM herself has as much as said that it was a concerted effort. If you don’t think so, frankly you’re either deceptive or deluding yourself.

377A? Sorry, not an issue – don’t make it one. For the record, I don’t care whether 377A is repealed or stands. But its not an issue now.

Examples to substantiate? Astonishing! Isn’t what happened at AWARE staring at us all in the face? Influencing the PAP? Fortunately that doesn’t appear likely. But certainly they may take civic organisations and use such platforms to pressure the passive majority.

Finally, take a look at the so-called editorial at this link which is instructive as a sample of holier than thou hypocritical pontificating. I would even say it is seditious and in breach of several laws in Singapore. Your views would be interesting.

http://sg.christianpost.com/dbase/editorial/453/11|19/1.htm

A Christian right would not be a danger in the sense they could not, for example, mount an armed campaign like say the IRA. But when they attempt to drive rifts in our society, by polarising sections of our society by religion and by fearmongering against a minority group, the dangers are obvious. I am certainly AWARE (pun fully intended) now of the threat and intend to be watchful.

You shouldn’t blow Josie&Gang’s actions out of proportion. They should be criticised because of the high-handed way in which they dismissed the contributions of the old guard and assumed control. But remember, she obtained the presidency by being elected and she sort of muddled her way into that position instead of going directly for it. Of course not everything that is done through legal channels should receive our approval, but all I’m saying is that I think you are making a very big issue of something that is really quite innocuous. They thought too highly of themselves, got into a sticky situation, and have been humiliated. Can’t we just forgive them and move on? In another time and place, some of the people hurling abuse at Josie Lau might find themselves in a similar position. Perhaps it’s easy for me to say this because I’m a Christian too. So is there any non-Christian reading this who agrees with my conciliatory stance? Your contribution would go a long way in defusing the situation.

if the 377a episode and the AWARE episode have shown anything, it’s that Singaporeans will speak up when they feel their way of life is being threatened.
I don’t think a Christian Right, even if it did exist in Singapore, would pose much of a threat to national security. If anything, hardcore Christians are merely an annoyance to the general public. A threat to national security? Come on, I don’t think that’s fair. Perhaps you could offer some examples to substantiate this claim?

I think right now Singapore has much more pressing concerns than the ‘threat’ of the Christian Right.

and don’t worry about my interpretation of the bible. For example, I think you’ve given me ample opportunities to practice ‘turning the other cheek’. i hope that’s what ive been doing so far. To some extent, that’s what I think at least some of the new-guard supporters were trying to do in the midst of all the chaos during the EGM. It’s tough though, because it hurts when people are mean. Is being mean to others essential to our humanity?

Hey HT, yea totally agree. its very disconcerting to see how people are so angry with christians. but it’s actually not limited to singapore. i once attended a debate at edinburgh uni between an atheist prof and a christian prof. atheist prof totally badgered christian prof all the way. lots of people in the uk getting un-baptised etc. i’m glad you don’t see this as one religious group versus another, i think that’s one of the first things we have to recognise before we can move on from this episode.

One strident comment made by a Muslim lady at the EGM spoke volumes. She said in ringing tones “For the first time in my life, I am frightened of Christians.” That comment can be interpreted at many levels. But it speaks volumes of the depth of feeling that has risen out of this saga.

Interesting to and fro you guys have had – very informative.
A major part of this AWARE saga was the attempt to paint the dispute as one between Christian and non-Christian. This was played up by some and others fell onto the bandwagon, consciously or otherwise. But Christians should note the depth of anti-Christian feeling that came up in the postings which can statistically be said to be by the English educated (yeah I know, some of you will dispute the use of the word educated) which one would assume would be more sympathetic to the Christian cause.

This truth. as revealed on the internet (where people seem to express themselves more freely), should be thought-provoking to the Christian at large as to why they excite so much anger amongst the non-Christians.

By putting humanity on a pedestal, he’s showing an inordinate amount of faith in the goodness of humans. to put it in another way, it’s a very pride-ridden way to think. if Nietzsche had been around during the Holocaust would he still have had so much confidence in the intrinsic goodness of humanity? Looking at the ‘victory of the old guard’, how can we really consider it a victory when it was marred by so much ugliness. I think while this has been a victory in some senses, in other ways, no one has come out of this fiasco spotless. EVERYONE has been implicated in some manner. Sally Ang telling people to sit down shut up, hordes of old guard supporters heckling Josie Lau, so much ugliness all around, how to be uber? When Braema or whoever it was told the supporters to give the new exco a clap after everything was over, i actually felt that was quite hollow. If she had contributed to telling them to quieten down during the actual proceedings so we could hear Josie Lau properly I would be more convinced of her sincerity.

Haha yes Jesus is my hero too. But the difference between me and Nietzsche is that I see more than the man in him. I take it that all Nietzsche sees in Jesus is his humanity?

i’m sorry that this episode has had such an negative impact on your views of religion, but i’m not here to convert you. i am only, like you said, trying to heal the rift.

has hate been spewed towards davin? i was not aware of it. well, for my part, I understand that Jesus came to Earth precisely to help the marginalised and downtrodden. nb ‘the meek will inherit the earth’. if we as christians have in any way failed to live up to these values then you are right in pointing them out and we should examine ourselves to see where we’ve gone wrong.

and on your point about this not being just the work of five christian women and their church, well…im quite sure there isn’t an organised christian conspiracy to oppress homosexuals so if that’s what ure worried about, then pls dont feel that way. that’s why im bothering to post responses. to tell everyone that you don’t have to distrust us. many christians supported them only because they were christians too. if they had thought about the actions undertaken by the new exco, perhaps they might have realised they were not performed in a very christlike manner.

Your disowning of the seven of your Christian brethren is quite amusing. What do you think, you would’ve said should those seven have won and imposed their medieval ideas upon Singapore? Of course, it is not as if Singapore isn’t already mired in such a stupendous and ambiguous idea of a set of so-called “Asian values” that may include unswerving loyalty to a nation’s leader.

Indeed, should that batch of exco members stayed on by vote during that EOGM, you could’ve proclaimed the emergence of a “Moral Majority” that cared for the invasion of the morality of the decent Singaporeans. I’ve seen enough of that asinine stupidity in the American South, and I don’t think Christian Singaporeans would have been unable to turn out the same way, after being encouraged by a success in this area.

For someone most possibly being “educated” (with the word used in no small amount of irony) in Singapore, you do not seem to be too proficient with reading comprehension. Or has the true intent of Nietzsche evaded you so much that you have misinterpreted his text? If you are unable to interpret Nietzsche soundly, I fear for your interpretation of the Bible.

You wanted Nietzsche to be wrong, and with that intent chiefed by your religion you have interpreted Nietzsche to be self-worshipful and sneer at him for “worshipping Man” in the same themes of discussion where “The God-fearing man worships God, and the prideful man worships Man”.

Since you have brought up the oft-misinterpreted “God is Dead” phrase, I will have the pleasure of mocking you for being part of the masses who have erred (worry not, for you are not alone!), and educating you in the suggestion of rethinking your interpretation of that phrase. eh’s Point #3 has been quite effective in his explanation.

Quite frankly, the moment that Anglican imam spewed his verbal diarrhoea of bigotry against homosexuals, he was already in my eyes, no different from the legions of Islamist imams crying out for jihad whilst mired in their medieval ideas.

Another big score hit for PAP, if we have such normal citizens in our midst. I even thought this Josie Lau was some big charismatic woman….she turns out to be such a disappointment.

I think her DBS job will be impacted surely. Negatively.

i’m glad to see some sane christians replying. finally, after all the hate rhetoric of some purported christians on the forum this is such a relief.

while i dun agree with davin on his generalisation, u have to agree that this is not just the work of five christian women and their church. truth is, almost all of the christians around me were pretty much defensive re this issue and in support of josie lau. if our gahmen never step in, i shudder to think wat would have happened.

a few things here;
1. it is very hard to leave religion and our personal experiences of it out of this issue, since a particular church played the most pivotal role in this whole saga. so if u find emotions overrunning, as moderate christians, i suggest u focus on healing the rift caused by ur brethen’s thoughtless actions. personally i find it hard to trust organised religion even before this, and this saga has sort of put a full stop to the role organised religion will ever play in my life.

2. the vehemence shown by davin in his post is hardly comparable to the hate spewed towards davin and marginalised people in our society. this range from migrant workers to racial, religious and gender groups. as people from the mainstream, don’t u think a civilised, moral group would stop campaigning against such minorities and choose to give them the space due to them, to live a good life as they deem as long as they do not break the social contract?

3. Nietzsche is not worshipping himself. ‘God is dead’ is a very laden concept – if we do not have God, or a super being who governs our rewards/ punishments in life and after, will we still be able to be moral. his pt is that only the ubermensch will be able to do it, someone who sets his own morals and beliefs and do not need divine justification. this is a very contextual aphorism, don’t misuse it please. btw, on of Nietzsche’s greatest heroes is Jesus, who he hailed as the ubermensch.

You really don’t get it. Let me further add to Kenneth Teo’s point.

You are entitled to your views on Christianity. However, your choice of wording is inappropriate. For example, you mentioned that “That aside, I was filled with utter revulsion when I heard of such a takeover bid by Christians”. Please note that whilst the 7 new [or should I say, old?] exco members are all Christians, this does not make them representative of ALL the Christians in SG. This is just a dishonest, uncivil act of 7 women who happen to be Christians.

Furthermore, you mentioned that “I can certainly understand the rose-tinted veil of religious zeal that distorts the perception of reality that I saw displayed in many, many churches and Christians during my time as a Christian, ” Many people assume that all Christians are blind in faith and subscribe to dogma. Many like you also assume that Christians are anti-homosexuals. ["Satan-spawn"] Not true. Just becaue there are Christians who believed that way does not mean you can conflate this group of Christians with the the rest of the Christian Community.

You may have your reasons for wanting to leave the religion. But there is really no link between the AWARE incident and your self-justification for leaving your religion. This AWARE incident, contrary to your belief, does not “support” your view “the rose-tinted veil of religious zeal that distorts the perception of reality that I saw displayed in many, many churches” because Josie Lau and her team does not represent the Christian Community at all. This must be duly emphasized; in fact, many Christians disagree with the hostile takeover. The stand taken by the Dr John Chew, Anglican Archibishop, that religion should not be extended to secular realms, and the pulpit should not be used in this AWARE SAGA for religious agenda, further confirms the fact that many Christians understand the value of secularity.