No, Josie and minions of the FM, GET THIS STRAIGHT

They hated you not because you were pro-family. MANY parents stood up and spoke FOR the CSE and against you.

They hate you because of your high-handedness. They hated you for your extravagance. They hated you for ruling an NGO like a corporation. They hated you for your behavior of exclusion. They hated you because you tarnished the name of feminism.

GET THIS STRAIGHT. Your voices were the voice of the minority. Because the majority are good decent NORMAL honest folks who just want to live in peace and harmony with each other. If you’re feeling you’ve been persecuted, maybe it’s time to take a cold hard you at yourselves in the mirror. This is exactly how it feels like to be marginalized and unfairly treated.

Go forth and sin no more.

Maureen Ong shouldn’t be addressed as Honorary Treasurer anymore.

The out-voted exco did not think they were part of a conspiracy?? Ok, maybe not conspiracy but how about an orchestrated plan to install new leadership? A coup??

@Zefly: I understand that you might have strong feelings for Aware and this case, but I felt there’s no need to target the people personally and use such hateful language. I hope you apologise for your strong language and name calling.

#4 joshua wong,

are the cleaner after josie & gang’s mess? cause i saw in your other posting you urged the public not to aggressively pursue the matter of josie & gang’s over spending.

by the way, i happen to have some feeling about josie & gang, but it is not hate, i simply despise them.

is despise better for you? no hateful language.

After being ousted, I do not think it s wise for Josie & Gang to continue to serve and hold key area for the next one year. Very simple reason, they should be under thorough investigation why they broke the constitution of spending more than $20000 within a month without soughting member’s approval. If they have committed an offense, they should be barred from accessing all AWARE’s affairs until they are properly charged.

4) Joshua Wong on May 3rd, 2009 10.39 am

Josh, my dear boy, the problem with Zefly’s post is not that it has hateful language – there is none except for the use “hate” and hey, you used that yourself in your earlier post in another thread, where you were wringing your hands and asking “Why do people hate Josie”. Well you’ve got your answer.

No, the problem with Zefly’s post and it is indeed a very serious problem indeed and one that I am very concerned about myself, is that it is all FACTS. People with good intentions (I’m trying to be kind here) but with no sense at all on the issues facing our society, worry me (yes, and like all those instant “angry parents over CSE” out there, I am worried for my children too.

So, Josh, my boy, please…do some thinking about what is right and wrong. And Zefly should not apologise – after all he didn’t tell you to “Shut Up and Sit Down!”

Dear jos, there is no need for anyone to apologise. i agreed with his post.

#5,7,8

Thanks for sharing your opinions. I was just wondering, which other post of mine were you referring to?

As far as I can recall, I only posted elsewhere in the comments to http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/05/aware-members-demand-“account-for-our-money”/

And I do feel that calling the new guard minions and his judgmental tone was a bit too harsh still.

Dont worry . The battle is lost but not the war. Continue to monitor them and engineer another takeover when they cross the lines. The positive side is you have made us all aware what was happening at AWARE. Hope the majority know what they are supporting. Dont give up!

9) Joshua Wong on May 3rd, 2009 12.26 pm

Whoops! Sorry, wrong Joshua (that was Joshua Lung). My apologies for the mistaken identity. Still, can’t agree with your views – not sure if you were at the EGM – the depth of feeling was certainly there. As for the tone, I actually think Zefly was being kind.

10) socrates on May 3rd, 2009 12.36 pm

Go suck an egg. Or better, suck some sour grapes.

#socrates,

yes dont give up!

so that the likes of FM, josie & gang can be exposed, questioned, booed by the public.

and supporters like you must also not give up, continue to urge them out, so that we can wipe them out just like what we did in the EGM.

please, please dont give up!

5) JL on May 3rd, 2009 10.50 am

There is no way that the over expenditure can be glossed over. I was at the EGM and heard angry members use very strong language, and this matter will have to be pursued and resolved.

The constitution is very clear – the spending limit is $20k a month. Even if we split into two calendar months, that’s a maximum of $40k for March and April. They spent “about” $90k. AWARE has to pursue this otherwise they themselves will be in trouble with the Commissioner of Charities as well as answerable to the members. It’s not a question of being magnanimous or vindictive – its simply the procedural thing to do – the new president and her committee would have no choice but to pursue this otherwise they themselves will be investigated for covering up an offence.

So expect Socrates and his like to continue to wring their hands and moan about persecution – that’s what they love…the martyr complex (along with their many other complexes such as sex obsessive). Well, if you want to play with fire, prepare to get burned. Man, there’s got to be a conservative family value in there.

What Josie & gang did is indeed despicable. Nobody can be faulted for despising them, they were the ones brought it on to themselves as soon as they elected themselves in covertly through the AGM.

However, I believe in forgiveness and redemption for those who are truly sorry for their own actions. Intelligent people make mistakes and believe in stupid things all the time. That is why we must speak out and tell them that they are wrong.

Of course, truly incompetent people never apologize and never see the light because they are not competent enough to even see that they were wrong in the first place.

supporters like you must also not give up, continue to urge them out, so that we can wipe them out just like what we did in the EGM.

IMHO, there is enough space in civic society even for Josie and team’s views. Afterall, their church stand did not advocate exterminating GLBTs. No need to wipe them out for they have as much a right to their views in their personal space (however illogical it may be to us) as we have ours.

To hahaha

If you believe that, then pigs could probably fly…

With all their twisting and turning and economy with the truth, you think we still have faith (pun unintended) in their words?

Somemore want to contribute. OMG. Really like someone say, it will survive even after a nuclear explosion.

#15 xtrocious on May 3rd, 2009 2.41 pm

Yes, I sincerely believe that there is no reason to wipe out this group. I believe in “inclusiveness” which IMHO means allowing this group to state their views even if ridiculous. As long as they do not impeach on others’ freedom — e.g. others’ right to exist and others’ right to their opinions and others’ right to personal choice — they too should be granted the same rights.

1) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on May 3rd, 2009 9.42 am

1″Go forth and sin no more.”

Below is a reply I sent to sllim and I think it applies here as well :

“Everyday when I wake up I thank the heavens for little mercies that Singapore is not ruled by “crazies” like you and your ilk and there are still voices of reason .

Lest you forget you and your ilk belong to the lunatic fringe and are the minority.

The mainstream values will ALWAYS prevail as the majority view in Singapore, as espoused by the MOE, when it comes to sex education in our schools.

Gay anal sex and same sex marriages violate Singapore laws!

No one has a monopoly on knowledge not even you. The fringe lunatic lifestyle that you and your ilk are dicing with, will only lead to death and destruction by exotic and deadly diseases, because as the saying goes, “those who live like Hell will end up there” as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow.

And when you vilify the voices of reason please do not to forget that those from the lunatic fringe who scratch their asses should never bite their fingernails.”

See Link from Dr Frank Joseph that mortified you and your ilks and have therefore predictably labelled it as satanic. Saving lives is not satanic but destroying lives is.

http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/a02rStatistcs.html

Btw Dr Joseph’s statistics have not been proven wrong by anyone in this thread or elsewhere. In fact I have proven that he is absolutely right on his statistics on the Aids and Hepatitis scourge in the USA. See below:

Dr Frank Joseph states:

1 “Even today, homosexuals account for well over 50% of the AIDS cases in the United States, which is quite a large number considering that they account for only 1-2% of the population”

According to the CDC, HIV infection and AIDS have had a tremendous effect on men who have sex with men (MSM). MSM accounted for 71% of all HIV infections among male adults and adolescents in 2005 (based on data from 33 states with long-term, confidential name-based HIV reporting.)

See Link : http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/msm/resources/factsheets/msm.htm

According to the CDC , the percentage of cases of AID from 2003 to 2007 (cumulative) in fact confirms what Dr FJ stated. The CDC figure was at 55% for msm and msm with injection drug use.

Dr FJ said “well above 50% !!” He is spot on!!

See Table 4 here

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/resources/reports/2007report/table4.htm

2″“Homosexuals account for a disproportionate number of hepatitis cases: 70-80% in San Francisco, 29% in Denver, 66% in New York City, 56% in Toronto, 42% in Montreal, and 26% in Melbourne.”

According to the CDC website on “Viral Hepatitis And Men Who Have Sex with Men” the msm are at ELEVATED risk for certain sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), including hepatitis A, hepatitis B, HIV/AIDS, syphilis, gonorrhea, and chlamydia.”

Approximately 15%–25% of all new hepatitis B virus (HBV) infections in the United States are among MSM. IMO this is a serious epidemic as the gay population is only about 2% in the USA.

See link : http://www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/Populations/msm.htm

See Table 2 at the Link here on the 2% of gay population in the USA.

http://www.law.ucla.edu/williamsinstitute/publications/GayDemographics.pdf

For those who wish to educate themselves on the types Hepatitis please go to:

http://www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/index.htm

So be warned.

To the voices of reason in this thread like singaaware, untilproven, leihoma, concerned, Peace, brainwave, vincesgp, Eddie and Old BC, et al I say never forget that you are on the right side of the equation and to you I salute and take pleasure in dedicating this AV presentation on “Why Life is Beautiful”.

http://www.greatdanepromilitary.com/Life/index.htm

Disclaimer : This AV was sent to me by a friend. Though it is from a pro-military website, I am not pro-war. I am pro-peace but will not hesitate to fight for the Truth, because “Truth enlightens man’s intelligence and shapes his freedom.”

To those from the lunatic fringe who dice with death and destruction I shall quote only this verse from Alfred Tennyson’s poem “Charge of the Light Brigade” :

“Forward, the Light Brigade!” (Read GLBT)
Was there a man dismay’d?
Not tho’ the soldier knew
Someone had blunder’d:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.”

Lastly, though the lunatic fringe may have won the battle at Suntec City yesterday with mob rule, death threats and storming of the “Bastille”,it has not yet won the war and never will so long as the mainstream values in Singapore remain intact.”

Josie & fiends should be barred at least 5 years from Exco positions for the damage they have done. they also should not be allowed o stay in Aware, who knows if they go around spying?

Josie & fiends should set up SPYware! lol… ^.^

There’s so much satisfaction to see the group represent majority sentiments win in the AWARE saga. I wish the general election can be equally democratic that eventually best & most qualified people get elected to hold MP posts.

19) mice is nice on May 3rd, 2009 3.41 pm

“Josie & fiends should set up SPYware! lol… ^.^”

Or maybe they should also set up ADware ( Accommodation for Dysfunctional Women And Restless Eves.)

re post #21) Curious on May 3rd, 2009 3.57 pm

pray hard they use their own money… -.-”

“When I joined,” said Ms Ong, “I was simply only answering Constance Singam’s call for new blood.”
She could not understand what caused this reversal in AWARE’s attitude.

Oh my… my dear Maureen… I do not understand how thick your skull can be? You were simply answering Constance Singam’s call for new blood, or were you answering to the Grand Demented Feminist Dementor’s call to ’steeplejack’ AWARE for your own sinister agenda? (who by the way, were “charmed” when her name was mentioned on page 73… get this, she was “charmed”… what a total deludenoid).

All I can say now is, good riddance to bad rubbish!

Yay to Singapore’s principle on secularism!

Josie and all her ilk are a scary bunch, so full of self-righteousness that they simply couldn’t tell what they’d done was wrong. Thinking people rejected their agenda and actions and they were rightfully skewered (in my opinion, they asked for it) at the EGM. Yet they can wonder why and believe that they’ve been victimised! It’s beyond logic. Is it because these folks do not have their heads firmly and squarely sitting on their shoulders? I find this extremely perturbing. How many such people are in our midst? The battle at AWARE was won and control wrestled away from this bunch. But I can’t help thinking that battles like this will have to be fought again and again in future…

3) mice is nice on May 3rd, 2009 4.02 pm

“pray hard they use their own money… -.-”

That they have aplenty, don;t worry. It is the mob rule, death threats and storming of the Bastille tactics that they lack.

And in case you don’t yet know its not the color of the cat that counts but whether it can catch mice!

So better watch out because a better mouse trap will be coming out soon (thanks to Josie and her team) when the MOE investigates the old guard’s CSE.

Wow, full of hate, unforgiveness, wickedness and the animals don’t behave like all of you . The animals are laughing at all of you.
You are worse than them. They thought that birds and bees don’t have anal sex or oral sex. The animals are confused too not just the children. They have distinct division. Their sex organs are for procreation with a little pleasure thrown in to motivate. Human beings….. what has happened. Maybe in the future the sexual organs are for sensual pleasure only and not for procreation. Maybe cloning is the answer. Soon cloning factories will spring up to let you clone your kids. The gay and lesbain couple can have kids by cloning..The future inhabitants are clones. The sexual organs will evolve into pleasure organs.

Please, just go. And while you’re at it, shut the door on the way out.

As Tom Petty sang “don’t come around here no more!”

re post #25) Curious on May 3rd, 2009 4.27 pm

i worried cos even they have more than enough money, they will rather use other people’s money.

our govt not so dumb, they can just tell of those unconcerned parents that they themselves failed as parents that’s why the CSE program was born. & stop pointing fingers, why not use their time to communicate more with their precious little 1s.

in S’pore, most cats are so well taken care of, they do not bother catching mice. there are mice sacrificed for the good of all, many dead during early developements of new drugs & are just tossed into bins. where’s the tribute to The Glorious Dead” mice day?

re post #24) Hg on May 3rd, 2009 4.22 pm

////But I can’t help thinking that battles like this will have to be fought again and again in future…////

i think your fear could very well come true. Josie & fiends are the “pioneers”. lol…

I thought Josie & her team conducted themselves in a real dignified manner. Even after losing the votes, they were gracious and professional. What a contrast to the old guards and their unruly mob of supporters. I guess when the homosexuality issue is on hand, the gays & lesbians are all out to regain their territory. Shocking behaviour!

Look at the big picture……..Did Josie Lau and her exco and their advisor Dr Thio lose everything including their faces last night?
No way! Their main grouse of the old Aware’s shocking teaching of pro-lebianism to secondary students is now the talk of the town. Even MOE is now awakening and having a second look (assuming they had a first look). Would they have achieved this expose through another way?I don’t think so.
So keep your chins up ladies…….you all did good for S’pore . MOE is now likely to discard the parts which promote lesbianism proactively and they have Dr Thio and Josie Lau to thank for. Not forgetting the other brave/decent ladies!
PS: You are one articulate pretty lady, Josie, I predict you will go far….maybe even in the political field?

re post #32) observ on May 3rd, 2009 5.44 pm

i dunno lying can be dignified wan woh….

*clap clap clap*

To #32 observ on May 3rd, 2009 5.44 pm:

Were you there? I was. IMHO, one of the reasons how Josie & her team has the upper hand in coming across as “dignified” was that they cut-off the microphones whenever the person speaking does not agree with them. This agitated the people from the other camp.

See http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/05/aware-victorious-and-rejoice/
Last video titled “Josie Lau and team admit defeat and step down” at 1:00 minute for an example of how Lois Ng did it, even at their self-declared “gracious” resignation.

Sure, on the surface they were dignified. In reality, their dignity is supported by undignified tactics.

To curious @ 20),

Thanks for posting the info and sharing your thoughts with all readers. Please include other relevant data on crime as well.

Hope you can forward the data to MOE and AWARE…..even MOH.
This should be included in CSE from the very beginning.

I don’t think Josie’s gang should be allowed into the AWARE centre anymore. No one knows what other damage she’ll cause. She’ll probably object to everything and hold up projects. And she’ll want to use only negative words in connection with homosexuality in the CSE program – like unnatural, sin, etc. since she disagrees with using neutral words. She probably thinks she can catch Aids just by being in the same room with a gay person. Can someone tell her this is the 21st century and tell her to return to her own planet?

Josie lau and lackeys thought AWARE is DBS and thought money rained from the sky.

Joshua Wong,

I’ve thought about it the whole day. I agree with you. I should apologize.

I’M SORRY.

The crowd don’t hate the minions of FM. After waking up today, we all realized we really loved them.

We LOVE them for how they had helped put AWARE on the national spotlight. Now AWARE has 3000 members. We LOVE them for helping AWARE upgrade its security system. which they will most likely pay for. We LOVE them for rallying their righteous flock to contribute an additional $28,000 (700++ x40) to the coffers to help promote the oh-so-insiduous gay agenda. We LOVE them for making the people recognize AWARE’s past 25 years of contributions… the unsung heroines are now household names. Thank you, thank you. Thank you Dr Thio. Thank you Pastor Hong. What sweet, sweet sweet poetic justice. :P

quote{The team also criticised the discrimination against people with “pro-family” views, citing the just-concluded meeting as an example.}

wolf crying wolf. josie and team anyhow discriminate the gays and people who don’t agree with their religious teachings (means even people who take neutral stance towards gays and lesbians). now they come say other people discriminate their unorthodox pro-family values. so how you feel now josie? have a taste of your own medicine? you can go back to your high-tea buffets and golf courses and facials. because you are inept. why don’t sooc church help the poor and disabled people instead?

39) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on May 3rd, 2009 9.47 pm ,
enough to hire Annabel Chong an as EXCO member to take charge of the CSE syllabus? She is very expereinced expert on sex and can help to author the CSE.
And Sasha Grey as the trainer and model. She can role play with the students of any gender.

“…..but the only reason they stepped down was really “for the sake of AWARE.”

“When I joined,” said Ms Ong, “I was simply only answering Constance Singam’s call for new blood.” ”

The thing that bothers me is how they still keep sprouting these lies.

For the sake of aware – I call bs to that. They didn’t care for aware, they felt that there was something wrong with aware and so they came in to fix it.

Maureen Ong claims she joined aware because she admired Constance Singam due to an article in ST. But again and again, she had defamed these people she claims to admire and later even said outright the reason she joined because she’s a concerned parent who feels teenagers shouldn’t hear about anal sex, oral sex, experimenting with pills and so on.

Come on, I don’t believe they don’t see the inconsistencies in their feelings and the words they sprout.

For this behaviour, I can only come to the conclusion that they are unrepentant and only keeping up the good intentions facade.

36) truth hurts on May 3rd, 2009 7.37 pm

1″To curious @ 20), Thanks for posting the info and sharing your thoughts with all readers. ”

You are most welcomed. Truth only hurts those who are in a denial mode.

Please do society at large a service.Be my guest and send the CDC statistics to as many parents and young people as possible.

2″Please include other relevant data on crime as well.”

I think the Home Team at the MHA has all the statistics.

3″Hope you can forward the data to MOE and AWARE…..even MOH.”

Those who read this and know the folks at the MOE can please do us favor and email them the CDC statistics. The MOH is already in touch with the CDC at Atlanta, Georgia. I am not sure new old-Aware will be receptive. So let the MOE take care of them after the investigation.

4″This should be included in CSE from the very beginning.”

Yes I agree with you absolutely. We must take 3 further actions:

1 We must make sure that lesbians and gays are not listed as “trainers” of sexuality in our schools as they cannot be expected to be objective on the mainstream values of over an est 98% of people in Singapore.

2 Tell our children that the lunatic fringe is only a small percentage in Singapore and they don’t need to join them. But they don’t need to despise or fear them.

3 Make sure that same sex marriage laws are not passed and the Penal Code 337A is not repealed. See Link below:

http://statutes.agc.gov.sg/non_version/html/homepage.html

Click the alphabet “P” on top of the page and then scroll down to the Penal Code and look at section 377A.

39) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on May 3rd, 2009 9.47 pm

Hi Zefly, it was great, wasn’t it?

And Watchman, I admit it, I went there to give the fundies a hard time. And it was FUN! The mob rules. If you can’t take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

Were you there? Ha ha. In your face. Annabel Chong? Sure. no problem. let me have her number. Bwa Ha Ha!

to Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang)

if you are for the old guard, they have already won. it is not a must, but it would reflect well for the old guards and their supporters to be gracious about it.

attacking the people who have lost and crowing and being snarky about the win.. does not reflect well on you or anyone else who did.

neutral party

Hi Neutral,

With all due respect, I ask for your understanding.

This isn’t a soccer match, where we’re mere spectators who can cheer the losing team because they put up a good fight. Since you are ‘neutral’ you would have very little idea the outrage we feel. What they did, the whole hijack, how they nearly ran AWARE to the ground, how they also tried to hijack the EOGM was indecent… and that was putting in mildly. Even now, Josie and gang, and Dr Thio showed absolutely no remorse for what they did. Aunties, Neutral Party, aunties voted against Josie’s team. You can’t get more ‘conservative’ than that already, and yet, they are turning this into a liberals vs, conservative issue?

Where is the apology?

I agree with you that we could have been bigger people. In time we would see them as misguided people who make mistakes just like us. But i would be lying now to say that forgiveness is in our mind. We strive to be better than our old selves most of the time, but we’re only human.

If they really want to heal the ‘rift’ it would only be gracious of them to apologize for all the pain and trauma they’ve put everyone through for the past one month.

Peace.

Voted out but still willing to contribute?

can any members of that team be trusted on even the most simple task? would women who need help want them to? they have done such a major damage to Aware, is it a good to have them around?

if “the trust is gone”, please just go. but if Josie & fiends need Aware’s help, extend your helping hand.

(43) Curious
Curious should change his nick. cos he sounds definitely uncurious about listening to alternative views.

Curious keeps calling people lunatic fringe.. come on la. Josie and her voters are in the fringe, stop calling her lunatic. she’s lost, and she’s got her lunatic fm, that’s bad enough oredi.

i see Curious has a very strong campaign to make starve people different from him. heng ar, he doesn’t sound like my mp.

but i think Curious is actually a very humane and caring person. cos the only reason why i can think of that he’s so upset abt anal sex is his assumption that it hurts. well, guess what, it’s not ur anus at stake, Curious, so get out of the lunatic fringe and relak a bit.

41) Watchman

Watchman, you really proved yourself to be no.1 Annabel Chong FANBOY! and Whoever GREY! Who is she???? why u keep posting their names everywhere? r u the PR manager? stop advertising for free leh!

If there is a dismissal clause – sack Josie Lau and her gang(sters) After they pay up all the exuberant expenses.

Also, DBS, where are you ? JL is a bad, toxic asset. Why keep her ?

Is there a dismissal clause in Aware’s Constituition ?

The most stupid thing of all is that people still think that homosexuality can be “taught”.

By all means, remove all references of homosexuality and let ignorance reign. Some people think that by playing ostrich and burying their heads in the ground, things will just disappear.

I grew up in a heterosexual environment, with heterosexual parents, heterosexual friends, and a fiercely homophobic school, and did not know what gay meant until long after I had attractions for someone of the same sex.

You can outlaw homosexuality, you can discriminate against homosexuals, you can disallow children to be taught that it is okay to be different, but guess what? We will not disappear.

Simple as that. So, be it Thio Li Ann or Thio Su Mien or some other ostrich-ignoramus, you can keep your straws and page 73 rhetoric because we are queer, we are here, and we are forever.

Frankly speaking, the right thing for Josie and gangto do now is to totally quit from AWARE. They have brought a lot of mess to this association and they should be held responsible and accountable for it. Due to this Christian fundamentalists, a lot of damage has been done.

They should be dignified enough to quit immediately. They have lost the trust of the members, they have lost the confidence of the members and they have totally lost their pride and self respect.

They should be sent back to school and be educated on what secularism is all about and be drilled that they shouldn’t mix religion and politics in a secular society like Singapore. And for their “feminist mentor”, for goodness sake, don’t you have any shame at all???

(10) socrates

stop insulting socrates! u dun think like socrates and u certainly dun even show the intellectual capacity! please kindly choose another nick.. this is really too much… it’s almost equivalent to defamation of the world’s no.1 philosopher…. pls pls dun do this, u r sabotaging urself… ur kids may end up reading socrates and question the hell out of ur dogmatic mind.

(10) socrates (pls revise ur nick!)

i think i’ve the perfect nick for u.. wat abt ’saint paul’? both of u r more similar than socrates and u.

‘mencius’ oso can.. both of u whine as much.

33) Max Chew on May 3rd, 2009 6.10 pm

So keep your chins up ladies…….you all did good for S’pore . MOE is now likely to discard the parts which promote lesbianism proactively and they have Dr Thio and Josie Lau to thank for. Not forgetting the other brave/decent ladies!
PS: You are one articulate pretty lady, Josie, I predict you will go far….maybe even in the political field?

lol… oh please Dr Thio. stop getting your secretary to post such things for you. it’s embarrassing to even read it.

didn’t MOE post an official statement on the appropriateness of the programs AWARE had in the schools? jeez. stop blowing your own trumpet. self-indulgence at its best. being articulate without the PR element…

how are you going to get far in politics? LEARN from michelle obama and stop being a sarah palin. you will just make a great stand-up comedian

#20 Curious

I can see where you draw your inspiration from. Your idol, Dr Frank Joseph, is an ultra right-wing conservative who can’t seem to stop writing hate-filled articles about the gay community and pro-choice advocates. Yes, his statistics are not wrong. But the same site that validates his numbers also has this very interesting bit of information:

Globally, around 11% of HIV infections are among babies who acquire the virus from their mothers; 10% result from injecting drug use; 5-10% are due to sex between men; and 5-10% occur in healthcare settings. SEX BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN ACCOUNTS FOR THE REMAINING PROPORTION – AROUND TWO THIRDS OF NEW INFECTIONS. (source: http://www.avert.org/worlstatinfo.htm).

Mr Curious, I’m sorry to have to break it to you, but your Dr Frank Joseph’s selective use of statistics to support his arguments is kinda, well… dishonest… don’t you think?

Just thought I’d point that out since you’re such a champion of truth.

of course they said they’re still willing to contribute, to say otherwise will just show that they’re the sore losers, rite or not ;)

hi curious,

your listing of all those health statistics do nothing. you still fail to understand what seth has said above, homosexuality is not something that is taught. in fact gay communities around the world today are fighting against all these problems, advocating safe sex et al. So what’s the issue here? In fact homosexuality should be normalized so that all these issues can be handled in a more open manner with state support.

What you are doing is just cherry picking statistics to support your perverse claim. by the very same token, in the US, there is also a disproportionate number of crimes committed by blacks. should we then kill all of them off coz based on the statistics they seem to have tendency to commit crimes? or discriminate agsnt them?

what im saying is yes, this minority might have a problem, but does it warrant any form of discrimination agsnt them? and of course you might argue that homosexuality is a choice and not something you are born with. but then that’s something thats being studied isnt it and most scientists would say that its a combination of factors including genetic and environmental factors.

The point is why discriminate when the only basis of your discrimination is your religion.

To Curious @ 43)

Thanks for the response and the link to Penal code 377A.
I fully concur with your suggestions to proceed with 3 additional actions.

I believe the horrific data on Aids and Hepatitis is mostly to do with male homosexuals and so is the data on crime that was posted in another thread.
I noted Penal code 377A does not cover women. Probably for physiological reason ? Not possible really for woman to rape another.

After this AWARE fiasco, I think it is worth the while to forward the data and suggestions to those at the helm, to ST and all relevant govt organizations.
The response from AWARE will indicate to the general public where they stand.
I believe many of the silent majority have been aroused. cheers !

Perhaps it is not too late for Josie and gang to actually get involved in AWARE’s activities, starting from the bottom. Learn about what AWARE actually is about and what it does by actually participating. Get respect and confidence from AWARE members by actually earning it. Then if you are still convinced AWARE went the wrong way, you have the respect of everyone to voice and contest for change.

@ Curious, #20:

The stats for Aids + gays that you listed are for the US.

To claim Aids is a disease linked to gays is sadly misguided. Are you for real??

If you bothered to go to S’pore’s MOH site for real stats, you could have discovered that:

1. 60% of Singaporeans who contracted Aids were heterosexuals.

2. 30% of Singaporeans who contracted Aids were gay

3. Remaining 10% who contracted Aids were bisexual (3%), from intravenous drug use (1%), perinatal, etc.

http://www.moh.gov.sg/mohcorp/statistics.aspx?id=246#table1

Just in case, you don’t know how to read the stats:
The number of straight Singaporeans who have Aids are TWICE that of gays.

Please feel free to call MOH to double check cuz for all you know, the MOH is filled with libertarian gays that skew the results.

The issue here is EDUCATION on Aids, and not blaming the disease on gays, which might I remind you are HALF of heterosexuals.

to curious#27,
you got yr stuff wrong. read the papers- no complaints from parents on CSE according to MOE. Are you not believing MOE too? and can you go ask your ‘charmed pg 73 for the fact and not groundless claim on the complaints. I would like the MOE to investigate old mentor feminist egostic @ pg 73 for her goundless claim.

watchman, – are u Dr Axxxx -that somebody in disguise. identify yourself. why do you keep talking about sex.. there’s a lot more things to look into . the whole fiasco is not about sex- raised by your idol @page 73. it’s about diversity, it’s about secular..

btw, wonder if my guess is right that both of you are attending the same church- fellow bros and sis..

josie n her team are just not sincere and they are not truthful about their motives in joining AWARE. it’s unacceptable that they hijacked an organisation. they’ve been there for a month, and yet they dont understand the constitution. – did they ever read, else how could they agrreviate the matter further by spending in excess outside of consitution. did i hear someone say they are rich, then pay back, why use the hard-raised funds! i hope the commissioner of charities and the relevant authorities can look into this matter. they need to be responsible.
josie and team – what a bunch of – to hijack a NGO and within a month spend so much! they created shit and left shit. – so what are they??!! full of shit

they shouldn’t just be barred from AWARE, they should be barred from every NGO.

to #curious & watchman – accept the fact.

re post #63) april song on May 4th, 2009 6.36 pm

////they shouldn’t just be barred from AWARE, they should be barred from every NGO.////

i agree with you on that!!

Josie & fiends are not some small kids, they adults for goodness sake. be responsible for what they have done.

sorry not enough.

http://dogemperor.newsvine.com/_news/2009/04/24/2729992-a-steeplejacking-of-a-womens-ngo-in-singapore-a-rare-glimpse-at-how-joels-army-groups-work-in-practice

Brainwave, THIS IS TRULY ALARMING although I dunno if it could be verified. Everyone should go and read it and decide for themselves.

62) kooky on May 4th, 2009 3.18 pm

A”@ Curious, #20: The stats for Aids + gays that you listed are for the US.

Yes, that is correct.

“To claim Aids is a disease linked to gays is sadly misguided. Are you for real??”

The CDC statistics show that 55% of the Aids victims came from 2% of the population and that is a very catastrophic epidemic.

B”If you bothered to go to S’pore’s MOH site for real stats, you could have discovered that:

1. 60% of Singaporeans who contracted Aids were heterosexuals.
2. 30% of Singaporeans who contracted Aids were gay”
3. Remaining 10% who contracted Aids were bisexual (3%), from intravenous drug use (1%), perinatal, etc.

http://www.moh.gov.sg/mohcorp/statistics.aspx?id=246#table1

Just in case, you don’t know how to read the stats: The number of straight Singaporeans who have Aids are TWICE that of gays.”

Hey Kooky its you who cannot do the math because you just take the raw figures and compare the Aids victims. You conveniently left out the population of the two samples. It was like comparing chalk and cheese!

Consider this assumption as I don’t know the actual gay pop in Singapore:

a) Let say the gay population is 2% in Spore as in the USA, then with a population of 4 mil the gay population is 80,000. The percentage of gay Aids victims is therefore 130 divided by 80,000 or 0.162 %

b) The heterosexual percentage is 255 divided by 3,920.000 = 0.0065%

The percentage of gay Aids victims in Spore exceeds the heterosexual victims by 25 times or by an INCREDIBLE 2500% in Singapore.

NOW if that is not a tragic eye-opener I don’t know what is !

C”Please feel free to call MOH to double check cuz for all you know, the MOH is filled with libertarian gays that skew the results.”

No need to bother them. The results above show that those who live like hell will end up there!

D”The issue here is EDUCATION on Aids, and not blaming the disease on gays, which might I remind you are HALF of heterosexuals.”

Tell your friends that the percentage of gay Aids population exceeds that of the heterosexual by 2500% and see if they believe in statistics or your myths?

60) truth hurts on May 4th, 2009 12.04 pm

1″To Curious @ 43), Thanks for the response and the link to Penal code 377A.
I fully concur with your suggestions to proceed with 3 additional actions.”

You are welcomed. Also please get as many concerned parents as possible to sign the petition to the MOE here to ask for an answer. Its free if you don’t make any comments.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/parents_sex_ed_appeal/signatures.html

2″After this AWARE fiasco, I think it is worth the while to forward the data and suggestions to those at the helm, to ST and all relevant govt organizations.

I agree. Also please study my post at “66) Curious”. you will see that the number of gay Aids victims in Singapore exceeds the heterosexual Aids victims by 25 times or by 2500%. What other proof does anyone want?

3″The response from AWARE will indicate to the general public where they stand.
I believe many of the silent majority have been aroused. cheers !”

The biggest battle will come when the GLBTs ask for 377A to be repealed and for same sex marriages to legalized. That won’t happen until Hell freezes over!

Hmmm I got a feeling in a few months time, the 3000 odd members will be down to 500 or less active ones…..IF only we were that active for general elections….

62) kooky on May 4th, 2009 3.18 pm

If wat u say is correct, then it is alarming….cos gays are like 1-2%(??) or less in singapore’s population and accounts for 30% of the AIDS cases. Obviously the RISK rating for gays to get AIDS is much higher.

I think Zefly is right – Nobody is against Josie Lau. She did bring some good changes to AWARE

1. More members joined Aware and there are higher exposure of Aware activities.
2. It highlighted some issues that concern parents about the lesbian programmes in School.
3. It highlighted the flaw in the AGM where new members can come in en mass and take over an organization.

The minus point:
1. The new administration seemed to have lied about a number of things.
2. The new administration does not seems to respect others – firing people without thank you for their services, not heeding the advice of advisers etc, “shut up and sit down”, not including the old guards etc.
3. The new administration does not understand what the organization they coup stands for and a result, encountered vast resistance to change.
4. There seems to be a lack of direction, vision, communication by the new administration.
5. They seems to exclude people from help if the people are gay.

Personally, for me, initially, I was rooting for the new guards, feeling that the old guards are a bunch of sore losers. Then when the new guards does not have an aim or vision nor do they communicate their plans, my support for them wavered somewhat. I think that the new guard should quickly inform the old guards about their mission and vision, and communicate to all members about it – but they opt to remain silent. In my opinion, a new head should map out the directions and plans they have and communicate the vision, but they failed to do that.

The first turning point is when Josie give what I think is a dumb answer to the question “what will you if a female client who is discriminated at work due to her sexual orientation approach you for help?” on TV — the question is paraphrased into my own words– If she has said “of course, we will help her to the best of our ability – AWARE does not discriminate against anyone on any basis of sexual orientation, race nor religion”, it should appease many of the members. But instead, she seems to have screw it up big time by saying something about “consulting the others Exco”.. Is there a need to think about helping a woman in need? That is the purpose of AWARE isn’t it? To help ALL women in need. Not exclude some people..

The second turning point is when the AWARE new guard seems to fire a lot of staff without thanking them or what I perceived to be valid reasons for termination. It shows they are power hungry and does not know how to work with people – then how do they work with their clients (or people who need help) – fired them or discharge them or tell them “until you have changed your sexual orientation you are not eligible for help”? This is more evident when during the meeting, the infamous ’shut up and sit down’ remark was made. Their attitude is what drove the majority of people who initially supported them away. If they were more approachable, and seeks to work with the staff and more patient, they would have encountered a lot less resistance to change, and the old guard will have a harder time regaining power. But no, they screwed it up for themselves big time without consulting anyone (they did not consult any one for free legal aid, revenues booking, maximum amount the Exco can spend in a month etc) and made all the decisions… This is a major turn off and result in my switching camps..

The next biggest turn off is that they seems to have lied, in that their actions are opposite to what they say. Have they worked with the old guard and instead adopt an attitude of learning from the old guard, they would not encounter so much resistance to change. But no, their attitude could not allow that.. *sigh*

Overall, I think the AWARE saga is a good learning point for organization behaviour, management and leadership case studies – and will be talking point in debates in universities as they seek to analyze what went wrong.. ;)

The above is my personal opinion only and should be seen as such.

@Curious

Ahh, HIV statistics.

1) One must question the accuracy of such results.

Firstly, how does MOH know who are homosexual and who are heterosexual?

Secondly, how can you assume that only 2% of the population are homosexual?

Thirdly, results are likely to be skewed as a result of self-selection. It is true that there is a perception that AIDS is a “gay disease”. I would say that there is larger HIV awareness within the gay community whose members are more willing and likely to go for testing and hence give a disproportionate number of HIV cases.

2) Talking about disproportionate cases of HIV infections from the gay community, do you not realize that HIV infected males far outnumber HIV infected females?

In fact, lesbians are of a lower risk of getting HIV due to the non-penetrative nature of their sexual intercourse.

Shall we then ban men from having sex then? Perhaps teach our children it’s not okay to be male? Hahahaha!

3) Even if it is true that homosexuals account for many HIV cases, what is the approach that we take? Do we ban homosexual sex? How does the government educate homosexuals on safer sex then?

They can’t. If you ban homosexual sex, you can’t have programs to teach about safer homosexual sex. You are just burying your head in the sand like an ostrich and hoping the problem will disappear.

It will not.

As for education, I really think parents are just being paranoid and misguided. For crying out loud, homosexuality can’t be taught. You can argue till the cows come home, but one’s sexual orientation is so fundamental it cannot be changed. Sure you can teach our children to be ignorant about sexual orientation. Guess what? There will still be gay kids who will turn into gay teens who will turn into gay adults.

You can be be as homophobic as Iran and execute homosexuals for all you want. It is a force of nature as much as you want to claim it to be unnatural.

An example of Curious’ fuzzy math at work:

a) Let say the male population is 50% in Spore as in the USA, then with a population of 4 mil the male population is 2 mil. The percentage of male Aids victims is therefore 392 divided by 2 mil or 0.000196 %
b) The female percentage is 31 divided by 2,000,000 = 0.0000155%
The percentage of gay Aids victims in Spore exceeds the heterosexual victims by 12.6 times or by an INCREDIBLE 1260% in Singapore.
NOW if that is not a tragic eye-opener I don’t know what is !

Time to ban male sex and teach our young that being male is NOT okay!

An example of Curious’ fuzzy math at work:
a) Let say the male population is 50% in Spore as in the USA, then with a population of 4 mil the male population is 2 mil. The percentage of male Aids victims is therefore 392 divided by 2 mil or 0.0196 %
b) The female percentage is 31 divided by 2,000,000 = 0.00155%
The percentage of male Aids victims in Spore exceeds the female victims by 12.6 times or by an INCREDIBLE 1260% in Singapore.
NOW if that is not a tragic eye-opener I don’t know what is !
Time to ban male sex and teach our young that being male is NOT okay!

52) Seth on May 4th, 2009 1.09 am

1″The most stupid thing of all is that people still think that homosexuality can be “taught”.”

It’s called GID or gender identity disorder which can be “contagious” like fads are contagious..

2″I grew up in a heterosexual environment, with heterosexual parents…and did not know what gay meant until long after I had attractions for someone of the same sex.”

Most sufferers of GID don’t know it until the hormone hits the fan.

3″We will not disappear.”

Yes, that’s true and the mainstream values hope that you will live your life to the fullest but please don’t ask for repeal of 377A and approval for same sex marriage.

Canada and some parts of the USA approve them. Why don’t you check them out?

4″because we are queer, we are here, and we are forever.”

Those who live like Hell will end up there, for sure.

72) Seth on May 5th, 2009 1.32 pm

1″@Curious, Ahh, HIV statistics. 1) One must question the accuracy of such results. Firstly, how does MOH know who are homosexual and who are heterosexual?”

I think they found this by talking to them in an anonymous interview.

2″Secondly, how can you assume that only 2% of the population are homosexual?”

This was an assumption I used as in the USA, in the absence of data. Do you know how many of you are out there?

3″Thirdly, results are likely to be skewed as a result of self-selection.”

Not if you compare apples with apples and not chalk with cheese.

4″ It is true that there is a perception that AIDS is a “gay disease”.

The stats show that in the USA 55% of the Aids population came from 2% of the
population and that 2% is gay. If there is any perception that could come from the stats.

5″I would say that there is larger HIV awareness within the gay community whose members are more willing and likely to go for testing and hence give a disproportionate number of HIV cases.”

That’s good if they comply and don’t go bare-backing or bug-chasing or rimming!

6″ do you not realize that HIV infected males far outnumber HIV infected females?”

That’s is true, maybe it’s because gays live hell.

7″Shall we then ban men from having sex then?

Yes, 377A of the Penal Code takes care of that.

8″ Even if it is true that homosexuals account for many HIV cases, what is the approach that we take? Do we ban homosexual sex?”

The law says yes. See 377A.

9″How does the government educate homosexuals on safer sex then?”

By the MOH advising them to use the ABC doctrine.

10″They can’t”

They can’t because you guy won’t listen.
.
11″As for education, I really think parents are just being paranoid and misguided. ”

They just want guys like you to keep away from their children

12″but one’s sexual orientation is so fundamental it cannot be changed.”

If it so fundamental why are you guys in the very tiny tiny minority?

13″Sure you can teach our children to be ignorant about sexual orientation. Guess what? There will still be gay kids who will turn into gay teens who will turn into gay adults.”

They will be treated with respect but they will be in a tiny tiny minority like you.

14You can be be as homophobic as Iran and execute homosexuals for all you want. It is a force of nature as much as you want to claim it to be unnatural.”

Singapore is not Iran or you will not be here to justify your GID.

Wow Curious,

Isn’t it great, hiding behind the safety of a nick and typing out all these hate and venom? I mean, imagine if the gay people whom you describe as being friends and having no problem whatever-so with their orientation knows who is actually behind all these rantings… what would they do?

74) Seth on May 5th, 2009 1.38 pm

1″An example of Curious’ fuzzy math at work: Let say the male population is 50% in Spore as in the USA, then with a population of 4 mil the male population is 2 mil. The percentage of male Aids victims is therefore 392 divided by 2 mil or 0.0196 %. The percentage of male Aids victims in Spore exceeds the female victims by 12.6 times or by an INCREDIBLE 1260% in Singapore. Time to ban male sex and teach our young that being male is NOT okay!”

Nonsense. Your maths are as fuzzy as Kooky’s.

People get confused because of selective amnesia. Like Kooky you carelessly left out the vast differentials in the gay and non gay population !

You must compare apples with apples. You must state what is the gay population in the 2 millions of male citizens vs how many are non gay!

Since you don’t have the data I shall use 2% as in the USA . See Link below.
Table 2. Its not perfect but that the data I have. If you have other data, post them.

http://www.law.ucla.edu/williamsinstitute/publications/GayDemographics.pdf

So 25 gays population is 40,000 and 98% for non gays is 1,960,000.

MOH said the number of gay Aids victims was 130 in 2007.For heterosexuals it was 255.

If the gay pop is say 40,000, then the percentage of gay aids victims in that population was 0.325% The heterosexual percentage of Aids victims was 0.013%.

Therefore the gay Aids victims exceeds the heterosexual Aids victims still by 25 times, same calculated before or 2500% more then non gay aids victims.

Now lets compare them with the percentage of female Aids victims which was 31 divided by 2,000,000 = 0.00155%

The gay male Aids victims exceeded the female Aids victims by 210 TIMES!

The heterosexual Aids victims exceed the female Aids victims by only 8 times.

The figures shows without a doubt why anal gay sex should continue to be banned in Singapore under Penal Code 377A.

2″NOW if that is not a tragic eye-opener I don’t know what is !”..Seth.

You said it. Better get a reality check and a maths tutorial.

See more statistics Links from the CDC website in Atlanta, Georgia below”

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/msm/resources/factsheets/msm.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/Populations/msm.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/resources/reports/2007report/table4.htm

And Dr Frank Joseph’s statistics below :

http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/a02rStatistcs.html

74) Seth on May 5th, 2009 1.38 pm

Please amend this “So 25 gays population is 40,000 and 98% for non gays is 1,960,000.” to “So 2% gays population is 40,000 and 98% for non gays is 1,960,000.”

where is the initiative, why wait till this Aware fiasco then suddenly got so many issues?

if this fiasco never happen the parents also wont question the CSE, people will not flood there minds about anal sex, & HIV. cos tomorrow is just another day lah, so don’t talk like (some of) you so concern.

Aware is not that big a nanny, cannot be everywhere & take on every issue 1 has beef with.

57) Lynn Lee on May 4th, 2009 7.58 am

1″#20 Curious, I can see where you draw your inspiration from. Your idol, Dr Frank Joseph, is an ultra right-wing conservative who can’t seem to stop writing hate-filled articles about the gay community and pro-choice advocates. Yes, his statistics are not wrong. ”

Not true. His statistics match those from the CDC in Atlanta, Georgia. Why kill the messenger? See links that shows that from 2003 to 2007 cumulative the msm and msm with injection drug use and infected with Adis were 55%, See Table 4 here:

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/resources/reports/2007report/table4.htm

Dr FJ said “well above 50%” and so he was correct and spot on !!

2″But the same site that validates his numbers also has this very interesting bit of information: Globally, around 11% of HIV infections are among babies who acquire the virus from their mothers; 10% result from injecting drug use; 5-10% are due to sex between men; and 5-10% occur in healthcare settings.

You are being selective in your maths. The 5 to10% of Aids victims globally is proportionately VERY high as the number of gays in the world is a tiny fraction of the world population. If globally the gay population is only say 2% of worldwide population then a 10% of Aids in them is catastrophic!

3″SEX BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN ACCOUNTS FOR THE REMAINING PROPORTION – AROUND TWO THIRDS OF NEW INFECTIONS. (source: http://www.avert.org/worlstatinfo.htm).”

But the heterosexual population is closed to 6 billion so the percentage number of Aids is relatively lower than those for MSM as the msm population is very low indeed. This is what is ironically called the “economy of scale.” The higher your population, on a per capita basis, the incidence of Aids is very low.

Using the same website you listed here it says that “Today, although there are more high-risk groups, MSM still account for around two-thirds (66.7%) of HIV diagnoses among male adults and adolescents.” and it gave the CDC website as a reference for the data in the United States of America.

So see yr own link here for the USA : http://www.avert.org/america.htm

Then see the confirmation in Table 19 of this CDC website:

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/resources/reports/2007report/table19.htm

The msm takes up 44% of the Aids victims and if you add in those that do injection of drugs the figure rises to 67% for 2007.

4″Mr Curious, I’m sorry to have to break it to you, but your Dr Frank Joseph’s selective use of statistics to support his arguments is kinda, well… dishonest… don’t you think?”

No it’s not me who is suffering from selective amnesia. I am sorry to have to break it to you, Lynn that those who are in a denial mode and live like hell will end up there.

5″Just thought I’d point that out since you’re such a champion of truth.”

As opposed to you who are a champion of the fringe lunatics and nihilism ?

I am not surprised because some people won’t recognize the truth even if it turns around and bite them in the gluteus maximus.

77) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on May 5th, 2009 3.26 pm

1″Wow Curious, Isn’t it great, hiding behind the safety of a nick and typing out all these hate and venom? ”

Not true. What I am doing is to bring the light to those who have been in the dark ages. That is not hate. Saving lives is not hate. Saving lives is “love”, pal.

2″I mean, imagine if the gay people whom you describe as being friends and having no problem whatever-so with their orientation knows who is actually behind all these rantings… what would they do?”

I hope they would look at the facts, change their lifestyle and live a full, happy and LONG lives. If I can convince even one then it’s worth it.

But remember, those who will not change and who live like hell will end up there!

@Curious

It’s called GID or gender identity disorder which can be “contagious” like fads are contagious..

Your condition is called homophobia, which is the symptom of bigotry and ignorance. Both of which are contagious.

Most sufferers of GID don’t know it until the hormone hits the fan.

Most homophobes don’t know that they are ignorant and bigoted, sometimes for life.

Yes, that’s true and the mainstream values hope that you will live your life to the fullest but please don’t ask for repeal of 377A and approval for same sex marriage.

The rights of minorities should not be left to the majority to decide.

If you don’t believe in same-sex marriage or homosexual sex, don’t engage in homosexual sex and same-sex marriage! Besides, wouldn’t allowing same-sex marriage promote monogamy and thus reduce promiscuity and HIV infection rates? 377A is just a toothless law that makes a mockery out of our penal code.

Canada and some parts of the USA approve them. Why don’t you check them out?

Because we are Singaporeans as much as heterosexuals are.

Those who live like Hell will end up there, for sure.

I don’t believe in Hell, but I’m not surprised you do. If there truly is a Hell, there surely is a special place reserved for people filled with hate like you.

I think they found this by talking to them in an anonymous interview. This was an assumption I used as in the USA, in the absence of data. Do you know how many of you are out there?

You think I thought who confirm? In any case, I don’t think the size of a minority matters when it comes to minority rights.

Not if you compare apples with apples and not chalk with cheese. The stats show that in the USA 55% of the Aids population came from 2% of the
population and that 2% is gay. If there is any perception that could come from the stats.

Yes, and because of the “gay disease” perception, there is a disproportionately larger number of gay men testing themselves, and thus a disproportionate higher rate of HIV infections discovered within the gay community.

That’s good if they comply and don’t go bare-backing or bug-chasing or rimming!

Heterosexuals too engage in unprotected sex, bug-chasing and anilingus.

That’s is true, maybe it’s because gays live hell.

The depth of your intelligence is shown in this nonsensical statement. You assert that gays represent a disproportionate number of HIV cases compared to heterosexual men. It is also quite clear from the statistics that men represent a disproportionate number of HIV cases compared to women. So what now? Ban males from having sex?

Yes, 377A of the Penal Code takes care of that.

What about the men who go to prostitutes and Batam and catch all kinds of diseases? They are as responsible for HIV infections as much as promiscuous homosexuals are.

The law says yes. See 377A. By the MOH advising them to use the ABC doctrine. They can’t because you guy won’t listen.

They can’t teach about safer homosexual sex because homosexual sex is illegal.
377A exacerbates the problem of HIV infection within the gay community by driving it underground.

They just want guys like you to keep away from their children

Do not conflate pedophiles with homosexuals.

If it so fundamental why are you guys in the very tiny tiny minority?

I don’t know. Why are left-handers in the very tiny tiny minority?

They will be treated with respect but they will be in a tiny tiny minority like you.

Respect is not telling them that they are an abomination and will burn in hell.

Singapore is not Iran or you will not be here to justify your GID.

I don’t need to justify my sexual orientation. I am who I am. You are justifying your hate for people you don’t understand.

And as for HIV statistics, you’ve stated more than a few times that gays give a disproportionately higher number of HIV cases. Fair enough. From the statistics, it can be seen that straight men give a disproportionately higher number of HIV cases compared to straight women. Please proceed and condemn masculinity.

@Zefly,

Bigots feel empowered in groups. It’s mob mentality.

Tolerance is never the defining trait of humankind. People usually hate and discriminate people they don’t understand and are different from them. It stems from ignorance. Of course, they would claim that they are anything but ignorant and are instead very knowledgeable about the matter, but they often give themselves away when they start to say anything regarding the matter.

In essence, I can agree with Curious that homosexuals have higher risk of being infected with HIV.

In response, we should take steps to reduce unsafe sex and promiscuity in the gay community.

Unsafe Sex

Unsafe sex can be battled through education. Authorities cannot have campaigns to educate about safer homosexual sex when homosexual sex is banned in the first place. Banning homosexual sex is also not effective in battling HIV infection, since homosexuals will still engage in sex regardless of whether the ban is in place or not.

Banning homosexual sex to fight HIV infection within the gay community is like burying your head in sand in hopes that the problem will disappear. It will not. Singapore has to repeal 377A in order to start fighting HIV infections within the gay community.

Promiscuity

I would say that promiscuity is more of a men’s problem than a gay problem. It is exacerbated in the gay community because, well, it is an all-male group. I think from the statistics it is quite clear HIV is a bigger problem for men than women. In fact, lesbians are often considered a low risk group for HIV due to the nature of their sexual intercourse. I wish to see Curious state why lesbianism is a bad thing then then.

Marriage promotes fidelity. Same-sex marriage will reduce promiscuity within the community. Sure, it will not eradicate promiscuity completely, but it will help a bit at least. Coupled with gay couple adoption, it will provide for a family structure that promotes monogamy. It allows homosexuals to form family units that are the building blocks of society.

Not true. What I am doing is to bring the light to those who have been in the dark ages. That is not hate. Saving lives is not hate. Saving lives is “love”, pal.
I hope they would look at the facts, change their lifestyle and live a full, happy and LONG lives. If I can convince even one then it’s worth it.
But remember, those who will not change and who live like hell will end up there!

Aren’t you self-righteous? Know-it-all, saviour of all mankind?

What about gay and lesbian couples in loving monogamous relationships? They do not spread diseases and are very much capable of living their lives together as their heterosexual counterparts do.

What about heterosexuals who engage in risky and promiscuous sexual behavior?

Condemn the behavior, not the identity of the person.

84) Seth on May 5th, 2009 10.59 pm

1″Aren’t you self-righteous? Know-it-all, saviour of all mankind?”

No. If I am I won’t be here debating with angry folks! I will be in Nirvana.

2″What about gay and lesbian couples in loving monogamous relationships? They do not spread diseases and are very much capable of living their lives together as their heterosexual counterparts do.”

In Singapore they are free to live a happy life except that the same sex cannot marry and the gays must be mindful of 377A. I did not legislate 377A, so don’t pour your scorn on me.

3″What about heterosexuals who engage in risky and promiscuous sexual behavior?”

The same goes for those who live like hell as they will too end there!

The facts from the MOH show that they do get Aids and their percentage exceeds that of the percentage of lesbians Aids victims by 8 times or 800%.

But the percentage of gay Aids victims exceeds the percentage of lesbians Aids victims by a whopping 210 times or 21,000% in Singapore !!

If anyone cannot see this distinction then his brain must be engaged in neutral all the time !

4″Condemn the behavior, not the identity of the person.”

I agree with you on the behavior and I always say that we must respect those with gender identity disorder.

83) Seth on May 5th, 2009 10.45 pm

1″In essence, I can agree with Curious that homosexuals have higher risk of being infected with HIV. ”

Thank you. The facts are irrefutable and if only the GLBTs will adopt safe sex it will not only prolong their lives but avoid the excruciating pain when Aids raises its ugly head or when Hepatitis B and C destroy their livers or Syphilis destroys their brains. The choice is yours and yours alone.

See this AV presentation on “Why Life is Beautiful” here :

http://www.greatdanepromilitary.com/Life/index.htm

Disclaimer : This AV was sent to me by a friend. Though it is from a pro-military website, I am pro-peace but will not hesitate to fight for the Truth, because “Truth enlightens man’s intelligence and shapes his freedom.”

@ seth 82)

“the rights of minorities should not be left to the majority to decide”

May I suggest you organize a speech together with the gay community at Hong Lim Park to convince, garner support for same sex marriage and repeal of S377A of the penal code.

Incidently, we live in a multi racial society and it is prudent and courteous to seek opinions of other nationalities that have a stake in this country.
And I am certain you are AWARE the racial breakdown consists of Chinese, Malays, Indians, Eurasians etc.

Try and see if you can convince the various communities to accept the ‘GAY’ proposals.

Worth trying , don’t you think so, rather than convincing only those visiting cyberspace ?

People make mistakes. HIV can infect anyone, even your goody husband that sleep beside you later in the bed or that auntie who served you coffee everyday in the morning. It does not belong to only the gay. Once someone ask if i can become a murderer. I say NO way, but he gave me enough scenarios to start agreeing with him. Therefore, don’t say no becos I think 1 day 1 situation when you are faced with a deadly choice between use a condom or please don’t do it. A large % will choose to use condom(Sorry, i based on my own assumption). Everyone will agree that the condom has done alot of good in our society. The guy who inverted this should deserve a international award, equivalent to the invention of the aircon. Therefore, as a practical approach in life, I think the CSE should include how to wear a condom properly. It save life and many broken family. Any violent objection ? If not i want to sent in the petition to MOE liao.

In Singapore they are free to live a happy life except that the same sex cannot marry and the gays must be mindful of 377A. I did not legislate 377A, so don’t pour your scorn on me.

Unfortunately one can only be so happy when his basic rights are limited by inequitable laws.

The same goes for those who live like hell as they will too end there!
The facts from the MOH show that they do get Aids and their percentage exceeds that of the percentage of lesbians Aids victims by 8 times or 800%.
But the percentage of gay Aids victims exceeds the percentage of lesbians Aids victims by a whopping 210 times or 21,000% in Singapore !!
If anyone cannot see this distinction then his brain must be engaged in neutral all the time !

Still, it goes to show that it is not exclusively a gay problem. Homophobia is uncalled for. What Singapore needs to do is to tackle the problem, not drive it underground.

I agree with you on the behavior and I always say that we must respect those with gender identity disorder.

Again, it is not a disorder. It has been widely recognized by medical authorities worldwide that homosexuality is not a disorder.

Thank you. The facts are irrefutable and if only the GLBTs will adopt safe sex it will not only prolong their lives but avoid the excruciating pain when Aids raises its ugly head or when Hepatitis B and C destroy their livers or Syphilis destroys their brains. The choice is yours and yours alone.

The same is true for heterosexuals as well.

May I suggest you organize a speech together with the gay community at Hong Lim Park to convince, garner support for same sex marriage and repeal of S377A of the penal code.

Worth trying , don’t you think so, rather than convincing only those visiting cyberspace ?

Yes I might consider that, but already there is going to be a gay event on the 16th May at Hong Lim. I will be there to show my support.

Personally, I feel that the government should do the right thing and repeal 377A. Like they always say, they are here to make right decisions even if they are unpopular ones.

In any case, I don’t quite get what you are getting at by saying that I should convince the various ethnic groups about gay rights. Mind elaborating?

How Aware embraces Josie and party would demonstrate how true it embraces diversity and inclusiveness. To do otherwise is sheer hypocrisy. Let’s watch and see how Dana and team stands true to their values and beliefs.

BTW, Aware has changed its Vision to “Gender equality for all”. It is no longer about women per se. Was this changed at the last EGM?

@ Seth 88)

The support for this govt comes from the various communities, comprising of Chinese, Malays, Indians, Eurasians, etc.
Now ask yourself whether this govt will accept your GAY proposals of
same sex marriage and repeal of S377A penal code if majority from those communities I mentioned are against such ideas. Can they also embrace the CSE programme for their children ?

Remember I said the various communities have a stake in S’pore and good governance means looking after their interests.
Your gay community will know where they stand with the general public during the process of reaching out, starting with Hong Lim Park.

89) Seth on May 6th

“In Singapore they are free to live a happy life except that the same sex cannot marry and the gays must be mindful of 377A. “….Curious

“Unfortunately one can only be so happy when his basic rights are limited by inequitable laws.”..Seth

All gays enjoy the same constitutional and human rights as the non-gays in Singapore. But homosexuality is not a human rights issue nor is it a “minority” rights issue as there is no such thing as a “sexual minority under Singapore law.

If gays want special rights to practice gay sex and same sex marriage , then should the law also give kleptomaniacs the same rights to steal as they too claim they cannot help themselves from stealing.

2 “(deleted) …But the percentage of gay Aids victims exceeds the percentage of lesbians Aids victims by a whopping 210 times or 21,000% in Singapore !!”..Curious

Still, it goes to show that it is not exclusively a gay problem…Seth

But when the percentage of gay Aids victims exceeds the percentage of lesbian Aids victims by 21,000%, it is the “smoking gun”.

“Homophobia is uncalled for.”..Seth

This is the trick that gays tries to pull on society. A phobia is an irrational fear and is therefore considered a mental illness. So gays are accusing people who don’t support their cause to have an irrational fear and therefore a mental illness.

This is a fallacy other wise if any woman who don’t support raping of women would be labelled a rapophobe and someone who don’t support gambling will be called a gamblingophobe.

Repetition does not make the fallacy go away. I don’t fear gays at all, so don’t call me a homophobe.

“What Singapore needs to do is to tackle the problem, not drive it underground”…Seth

By your assessment this must include the repeal 377A and allow same sex marriage? No way, Jose!

3″I agree with you on the behavior and I always say that we must respect those with gender identity disorder.”..Curious.

“Again, it is not a disorder. It has been widely recognized by medical authorities worldwide that homosexuality is not a disorder.”..Seth

It is when a man removes his reproductive organs and dresses like a women or when a woman removes her mammary glands so that she looks more like a man or when a man cannot distinguish between a man and a woman to have sex. Maybe it should be called a gender identity crisis if that is not a disorder.

4″Thank you. The facts are irrefutable and if only the GLBTs will adopt safe sex it will not only prolong their lives but avoid the excruciating pain when Aids raises its ugly head or when Hepatitis B and C destroy their livers or Syphilis destroys their brains. The choice is yours and yours alone.”..Curious

“The same is true for heterosexuals as well.” ..Seth

But more so for the GLBT community.

Note : The rest about Hong LIm was posted by “87) getting bolder” on May 6th, 2009 12.16 am .

re post #89) Duh on May 6th, 2009 10.08 am

Josie’s teeam must show that they are sincere 1st by returning the money spent in that month alone. another issue that Dana Lam’s team should note is that while 1 seeks to embrace former adversaries, 1 should not forget the ill that was done in the past.

with Aware’s money still not “recovered” & Josie’s team still not sincerely apologetic to the very last minute (the EOGM day at Suntec) of their short tenor, to embrace them would be folly.

All gays enjoy the same constitutional and human rights as the non-gays in Singapore. But homosexuality is not a human rights issue nor is it a “minority” rights issue as there is no such thing as a “sexual minority under Singapore law.

If gays want special rights to practice gay sex and same sex marriage , then should the law also give kleptomaniacs the same rights to steal as they too claim they cannot help themselves from stealing.

Not recognizing homosexuals to be a minority group is by itself a discriminatory act.

It is equitable to accord homosexuals with the right to marry and have sex with the person they love (ie member of the same sex). You cannot argue that it is fair for homosexuals to be denied the right to marry someone of the same sex because they are free to marry someone of the opposite sex.

It is akin to saying that it is fair to ban Halal food, and then say that it is fair for Muslims because they are free to eat non-Halal food like non-Muslims.

These are not special rights we are asking for. We are asking for equitable rights. We are not asking for the right to marry multiple partners. We are just asking for the right to marry the person we love.

Kleptomaniacs are punished because they cause monetary damage to others. If they “steal” from a “consensual party”, nobody will punish them. Likewise, homosexuals ask for the right to be joined in consensual union and are not forcing themselves on unwilling parties. There is no harm done to others when two men or women who love each other get married.

Still, it goes to show that it is not exclusively a gay problem…Seth
But when the percentage of gay Aids victims exceeds the percentage of lesbian Aids victims by 21,000%, it is the “smoking gun”.

Then the problem ought to be recognized and dealt with, not pushed underground. The government cannot endorse or sponsor campaigns that push for safer gay sex if gay sex is banned in the first place.

This is the trick that gays tries to pull on society. A phobia is an irrational fear and is therefore considered a mental illness. So gays are accusing people who don’t support their cause to have an irrational fear and therefore a mental illness.
This is a fallacy other wise if any woman who don’t support raping of women would be labelled a rapophobe and someone who don’t support gambling will be called a gamblingophobe.
Repetition does not make the fallacy go away. I don’t fear gays at all, so don’t call me a homophobe.

Homophobia includes the “discrimination of homosexuals”. You may not fear homosexuals, but you most certainly do discriminate against them.

By your assessment this must include the repeal 377A and allow same sex marriage? No way, Jose!

Yes.

It is when a man removes his reproductive organs and dresses like a women or when a woman removes her mammary glands so that she looks more like a man or when a man cannot distinguish between a man and a woman to have sex. Maybe it should be called a gender identity crisis if that is not a disorder.

Do not conflate homosexuals with transsexuals. Gay men identify as men, and lesbian women identify as women. There is no identity crisis or disorder here.

Personally I am not a transsexual so I do not wish to speak for them.

But more so for the GLBT community.

Yes, and so your reaction is to hate and discriminate them?

Let me paint this hypothetical situation:

In Society X, there are Groups A and B of people. If Group A drinks moderately and causes 1000 drink-drive accidents per year and Group B drinks a lot and causes 100000 drink-drive accidents per year, shall we only punish Group B for drink-drive accidents?

It is discrimination to put all the fault on the GLBT community for HIV infection rates when the mainstream community causes more HIV infections. Disproportionate or not, the mainstream community still forms the majority of the HIV problem when more HIV cases stem from heterosexuals. Besides, lesbians are a low risk group.

You are seriously filled with hate against homosexuals, aren’t you? There’s no need to guise your hatred under labels of “love” or “concern” when your hate is apparent for all to see.

The support for this govt comes from the various communities, comprising of Chinese, Malays, Indians, Eurasians, etc.

Your gay community will know where they stand with the general public during the process of reaching out, starting with Hong Lim Park.

I believe that good governance includes enacting good laws even if they are unpopular ones.

As it stands, 377A does nothing but to oppress a particular group of people. Repealing 377A does not cause harm to anyone, but alleviates some oppression from the marginalized group of people. In fact, having 377A is detrimental as it drives gay sex and the problem of HIV infections underground and makes it impossible for the government to manage.

It may not be a popular move to lift 377A, and I say may not because I believe there is a large bulk of Singaporeans who wouldn’t care either way, but it is certainly the right thing to do.

94) Seth on May 7th, 2009 12.06 am

5″ There is no harm done to others when two men or women who love each other get married.”..Seth

This a fallacy that is promoted by the GLBT community. I can also ask you : where is the harm if a woman is allowed to marry her dog and have sex with it?

6″But when the percentage of gay Aids victims exceeds the percentage of lesbian Aids victims by 21,000%, it is the “smoking gun”… Curious

“Then the problem ought to be recognized and dealt with, not pushed underground. The government cannot endorse or sponsor campaigns that push for safer gay sex if gay sex is banned in the first place.”

The govt is taking the initiatives to promote safe sex to the community. It is the GLBT which continues to ignore this and hence we see the 21,000% smoking gun above.

7″Homophobia includes the “discrimination of homosexuals”. You may not fear homosexuals, but you most certainly do discriminate against them.”

How do I do that when I don’t make the law?

8″By your assessment this must include the repeal 377A and allow same sex marriage? No way, Jose!” Curious

“Yes.” ….Seth.

Then you have to wait till Hell freezes over.

9″Do not conflate homosexuals with transsexuals. Gay men identify as men, and lesbian women identify as women. There is no identity crisis or disorder here.”

If gay men identify themselves as men why do they prefer to have sex with men and marry them? Ditto for lesbians?

To be continued….

94) Seth on May 7th, 2009 12.06 am

10″Personally I am not a transsexual so I do not wish to speak for them.” Seth

Are you a lesbian? Please don’t answer if you feel uncomfortable.

11″But more so for the GLBT community.’.. Curious

“Yes, and so your reaction is to hate and discriminate them?” Seth

NO, I don’t hate the GLBT, but they, like all Singaporeans, must obey the law.

12Let me paint this hypothetical situation: “.. seth (deleted. See above for full theory)

ALL drink-drive drivers are dealt with in the same way under the law.

But by formulating your theory it shows that you did not take a maths tutorial. If Group B forms only a very TINY portion of the hypothetical society and its drink drive accidents exceed Group A’s by 10,000% is it not true that its hell-bent lifestyle is to be blamed?

13″It is discrimination to put all the fault on the GLBT community for HIV infection rates when the mainstream community causes more HIV infections.”

In the US, 55% of the Aids victims came from just 2% of the gay population as shown by a CDC study for the period from 2003 to 2007.

14″ Disproportionate or not, the mainstream community still forms the majority of the HIV problem when more HIV cases stem from heterosexuals.

See above. In Singapore the percentage of gay Aids victims exceeds the percentage of hetero Aids victims by 800% and lesbian Aids victims by 21,000%

15″Besides, lesbians are a low risk group.”

Incest also forms the lowest risk and animal sex has no known Aids cases, so by your silly argument why not allow incest and animal sex too?

16″You are seriously filled with hate against homosexuals, aren’t you? There’s no need to guise your hatred under labels of “love” or “concern” when your hate is apparent for all to see.”

NO I don’t hate you. It’s you who are filled with hate and anger because I don’t support your nefarious cause. Get a reality check.