10″Personally I am not a transsexual so I do not wish to speak for them.” Seth

Are you a lesbian? Please don’t answer if you feel uncomfortable.

11″But more so for the GLBT community.’.. Curious

“Yes, and so your reaction is to hate and discriminate them?” Seth

NO, I don’t hate the GLBT, but they, like all Singaporeans, must obey the law.

12Let me paint this hypothetical situation: “.. seth (deleted. See above for full theory)

ALL drink-drive drivers are dealt with in the same way under the law.

But by formulating your theory it shows that you did not take a maths tutorial. If Group B forms only a very TINY portion of the hypothetical society and its drink drive accidents exceed Group A’s by 10,000% is it not true that its hell-bent lifestyle is to be blamed?

13″It is discrimination to put all the fault on the GLBT community for HIV infection rates when the mainstream community causes more HIV infections.”

In the US, 55% of the Aids victims came from just 2% of the gay population as shown by a CDC study for the period from 2003 to 2007.

14″ Disproportionate or not, the mainstream community still forms the majority of the HIV problem when more HIV cases stem from heterosexuals.

See above. In Singapore the percentage of gay Aids victims exceeds the percentage of hetero Aids victims by 800% and lesbian Aids victims by 21,000%

15″Besides, lesbians are a low risk group.”

Incest also forms the lowest risk and animal sex has no known Aids cases, so by your silly argument why not allow incest and animal sex too?

16″You are seriously filled with hate against homosexuals, aren’t you? There’s no need to guise your hatred under labels of “love” or “concern” when your hate is apparent for all to see.”

NO I don’t hate you. It’s you who are filled with hate and anger because I don’t support your nefarious cause. Get a reality check.

5″ There is no harm done to others when two men or women who love each other get married.”..Seth

This a fallacy that is promoted by the GLBT community. I can also ask you : where is the harm if a woman is allowed to marry her dog and have sex with it?

6″But when the percentage of gay Aids victims exceeds the percentage of lesbian Aids victims by 21,000%, it is the “smoking gun”… Curious

“Then the problem ought to be recognized and dealt with, not pushed underground. The government cannot endorse or sponsor campaigns that push for safer gay sex if gay sex is banned in the first place.”

The govt is taking the initiatives to promote safe sex to the community. It is the GLBT which continues to ignore this and hence we see the 21,000% smoking gun above.

7″Homophobia includes the “discrimination of homosexuals”. You may not fear homosexuals, but you most certainly do discriminate against them.”

How do I do that when I don’t make the law?

8″By your assessment this must include the repeal 377A and allow same sex marriage? No way, Jose!” Curious

“Yes.” ….Seth.

Then you have to wait till Hell freezes over.

9″Do not conflate homosexuals with transsexuals. Gay men identify as men, and lesbian women identify as women. There is no identity crisis or disorder here.”

If gay men identify themselves as men why do they prefer to have sex with men and marry them? Ditto for lesbians?

To be continued….

Your gay community will know where they stand with the general public during the process of reaching out, starting with Hong Lim Park.

I believe that good governance includes enacting good laws even if they are unpopular ones.

As it stands, 377A does nothing but to oppress a particular group of people. Repealing 377A does not cause harm to anyone, but alleviates some oppression from the marginalized group of people. In fact, having 377A is detrimental as it drives gay sex and the problem of HIV infections underground and makes it impossible for the government to manage.

It may not be a popular move to lift 377A, and I say may not because I believe there is a large bulk of Singaporeans who wouldn’t care either way, but it is certainly the right thing to do.

If gays want special rights to practice gay sex and same sex marriage , then should the law also give kleptomaniacs the same rights to steal as they too claim they cannot help themselves from stealing.

Not recognizing homosexuals to be a minority group is by itself a discriminatory act.

It is equitable to accord homosexuals with the right to marry and have sex with the person they love (ie member of the same sex). You cannot argue that it is fair for homosexuals to be denied the right to marry someone of the same sex because they are free to marry someone of the opposite sex.

It is akin to saying that it is fair to ban Halal food, and then say that it is fair for Muslims because they are free to eat non-Halal food like non-Muslims.

These are not special rights we are asking for. We are asking for equitable rights. We are not asking for the right to marry multiple partners. We are just asking for the right to marry the person we love.

Kleptomaniacs are punished because they cause monetary damage to others. If they “steal” from a “consensual party”, nobody will punish them. Likewise, homosexuals ask for the right to be joined in consensual union and are not forcing themselves on unwilling parties. There is no harm done to others when two men or women who love each other get married.

Still, it goes to show that it is not exclusively a gay problem…Seth
But when the percentage of gay Aids victims exceeds the percentage of lesbian Aids victims by 21,000%, it is the “smoking gun”.

Then the problem ought to be recognized and dealt with, not pushed underground. The government cannot endorse or sponsor campaigns that push for safer gay sex if gay sex is banned in the first place.

This is the trick that gays tries to pull on society. A phobia is an irrational fear and is therefore considered a mental illness. So gays are accusing people who don’t support their cause to have an irrational fear and therefore a mental illness.
This is a fallacy other wise if any woman who don’t support raping of women would be labelled a rapophobe and someone who don’t support gambling will be called a gamblingophobe.
Repetition does not make the fallacy go away. I don’t fear gays at all, so don’t call me a homophobe.

Homophobia includes the “discrimination of homosexuals”. You may not fear homosexuals, but you most certainly do discriminate against them.

By your assessment this must include the repeal 377A and allow same sex marriage? No way, Jose!

Yes.

It is when a man removes his reproductive organs and dresses like a women or when a woman removes her mammary glands so that she looks more like a man or when a man cannot distinguish between a man and a woman to have sex. Maybe it should be called a gender identity crisis if that is not a disorder.

Do not conflate homosexuals with transsexuals. Gay men identify as men, and lesbian women identify as women. There is no identity crisis or disorder here.

Personally I am not a transsexual so I do not wish to speak for them.

But more so for the GLBT community.

Yes, and so your reaction is to hate and discriminate them?

Let me paint this hypothetical situation:

In Society X, there are Groups A and B of people. If Group A drinks moderately and causes 1000 drink-drive accidents per year and Group B drinks a lot and causes 100000 drink-drive accidents per year, shall we only punish Group B for drink-drive accidents?

It is discrimination to put all the fault on the GLBT community for HIV infection rates when the mainstream community causes more HIV infections. Disproportionate or not, the mainstream community still forms the majority of the HIV problem when more HIV cases stem from heterosexuals. Besides, lesbians are a low risk group.

You are seriously filled with hate against homosexuals, aren’t you? There’s no need to guise your hatred under labels of “love” or “concern” when your hate is apparent for all to see.

Josie’s teeam must show that they are sincere 1st by returning the money spent in that month alone. another issue that Dana Lam’s team should note is that while 1 seeks to embrace former adversaries, 1 should not forget the ill that was done in the past.

with Aware’s money still not “recovered” & Josie’s team still not sincerely apologetic to the very last minute (the EOGM day at Suntec) of their short tenor, to embrace them would be folly.

“In Singapore they are free to live a happy life except that the same sex cannot marry and the gays must be mindful of 377A. “….Curious

“Unfortunately one can only be so happy when his basic rights are limited by inequitable laws.”..Seth

All gays enjoy the same constitutional and human rights as the non-gays in Singapore. But homosexuality is not a human rights issue nor is it a “minority” rights issue as there is no such thing as a “sexual minority under Singapore law.

If gays want special rights to practice gay sex and same sex marriage , then should the law also give kleptomaniacs the same rights to steal as they too claim they cannot help themselves from stealing.

2 “(deleted) …But the percentage of gay Aids victims exceeds the percentage of lesbians Aids victims by a whopping 210 times or 21,000% in Singapore !!”..Curious

Still, it goes to show that it is not exclusively a gay problem…Seth

But when the percentage of gay Aids victims exceeds the percentage of lesbian Aids victims by 21,000%, it is the “smoking gun”.

“Homophobia is uncalled for.”..Seth

This is the trick that gays tries to pull on society. A phobia is an irrational fear and is therefore considered a mental illness. So gays are accusing people who don’t support their cause to have an irrational fear and therefore a mental illness.

This is a fallacy other wise if any woman who don’t support raping of women would be labelled a rapophobe and someone who don’t support gambling will be called a gamblingophobe.

Repetition does not make the fallacy go away. I don’t fear gays at all, so don’t call me a homophobe.

“What Singapore needs to do is to tackle the problem, not drive it underground”…Seth

By your assessment this must include the repeal 377A and allow same sex marriage? No way, Jose!

3″I agree with you on the behavior and I always say that we must respect those with gender identity disorder.”..Curious.

“Again, it is not a disorder. It has been widely recognized by medical authorities worldwide that homosexuality is not a disorder.”..Seth

It is when a man removes his reproductive organs and dresses like a women or when a woman removes her mammary glands so that she looks more like a man or when a man cannot distinguish between a man and a woman to have sex. Maybe it should be called a gender identity crisis if that is not a disorder.

4″Thank you. The facts are irrefutable and if only the GLBTs will adopt safe sex it will not only prolong their lives but avoid the excruciating pain when Aids raises its ugly head or when Hepatitis B and C destroy their livers or Syphilis destroys their brains. The choice is yours and yours alone.”..Curious

“The same is true for heterosexuals as well.” ..Seth

But more so for the GLBT community.

Note : The rest about Hong LIm was posted by “87) getting bolder” on May 6th, 2009 12.16 am .

The support for this govt comes from the various communities, comprising of Chinese, Malays, Indians, Eurasians, etc.
Now ask yourself whether this govt will accept your GAY proposals of
same sex marriage and repeal of S377A penal code if majority from those communities I mentioned are against such ideas. Can they also embrace the CSE programme for their children ?

Remember I said the various communities have a stake in S’pore and good governance means looking after their interests.
Your gay community will know where they stand with the general public during the process of reaching out, starting with Hong Lim Park.

BTW, Aware has changed its Vision to “Gender equality for all”. It is no longer about women per se. Was this changed at the last EGM?

Unfortunately one can only be so happy when his basic rights are limited by inequitable laws.

The same goes for those who live like hell as they will too end there!
The facts from the MOH show that they do get Aids and their percentage exceeds that of the percentage of lesbians Aids victims by 8 times or 800%.
But the percentage of gay Aids victims exceeds the percentage of lesbians Aids victims by a whopping 210 times or 21,000% in Singapore !!
If anyone cannot see this distinction then his brain must be engaged in neutral all the time !

Still, it goes to show that it is not exclusively a gay problem. Homophobia is uncalled for. What Singapore needs to do is to tackle the problem, not drive it underground.

I agree with you on the behavior and I always say that we must respect those with gender identity disorder.

Again, it is not a disorder. It has been widely recognized by medical authorities worldwide that homosexuality is not a disorder.

Thank you. The facts are irrefutable and if only the GLBTs will adopt safe sex it will not only prolong their lives but avoid the excruciating pain when Aids raises its ugly head or when Hepatitis B and C destroy their livers or Syphilis destroys their brains. The choice is yours and yours alone.

The same is true for heterosexuals as well.

May I suggest you organize a speech together with the gay community at Hong Lim Park to convince, garner support for same sex marriage and repeal of S377A of the penal code.

Worth trying , don’t you think so, rather than convincing only those visiting cyberspace ?

Yes I might consider that, but already there is going to be a gay event on the 16th May at Hong Lim. I will be there to show my support.

Personally, I feel that the government should do the right thing and repeal 377A. Like they always say, they are here to make right decisions even if they are unpopular ones.

In any case, I don’t quite get what you are getting at by saying that I should convince the various ethnic groups about gay rights. Mind elaborating?

“the rights of minorities should not be left to the majority to decide”

May I suggest you organize a speech together with the gay community at Hong Lim Park to convince, garner support for same sex marriage and repeal of S377A of the penal code.

Incidently, we live in a multi racial society and it is prudent and courteous to seek opinions of other nationalities that have a stake in this country.
And I am certain you are AWARE the racial breakdown consists of Chinese, Malays, Indians, Eurasians etc.

Try and see if you can convince the various communities to accept the ‘GAY’ proposals.

Worth trying , don’t you think so, rather than convincing only those visiting cyberspace ?

1″Aren’t you self-righteous? Know-it-all, saviour of all mankind?”

No. If I am I won’t be here debating with angry folks! I will be in Nirvana.

2″What about gay and lesbian couples in loving monogamous relationships? They do not spread diseases and are very much capable of living their lives together as their heterosexual counterparts do.”

In Singapore they are free to live a happy life except that the same sex cannot marry and the gays must be mindful of 377A. I did not legislate 377A, so don’t pour your scorn on me.

3″What about heterosexuals who engage in risky and promiscuous sexual behavior?”

The same goes for those who live like hell as they will too end there!

The facts from the MOH show that they do get Aids and their percentage exceeds that of the percentage of lesbians Aids victims by 8 times or 800%.

But the percentage of gay Aids victims exceeds the percentage of lesbians Aids victims by a whopping 210 times or 21,000% in Singapore !!

If anyone cannot see this distinction then his brain must be engaged in neutral all the time !

4″Condemn the behavior, not the identity of the person.”

I agree with you on the behavior and I always say that we must respect those with gender identity disorder.

83) Seth on May 5th, 2009 10.45 pm

1″In essence, I can agree with Curious that homosexuals have higher risk of being infected with HIV. ”

Thank you. The facts are irrefutable and if only the GLBTs will adopt safe sex it will not only prolong their lives but avoid the excruciating pain when Aids raises its ugly head or when Hepatitis B and C destroy their livers or Syphilis destroys their brains. The choice is yours and yours alone.

See this AV presentation on “Why Life is Beautiful” here :

http://www.greatdanepromilitary.com/Life/index.htm

Disclaimer : This AV was sent to me by a friend. Though it is from a pro-military website, I am pro-peace but will not hesitate to fight for the Truth, because “Truth enlightens man’s intelligence and shapes his freedom.”

Aren’t you self-righteous? Know-it-all, saviour of all mankind?

What about gay and lesbian couples in loving monogamous relationships? They do not spread diseases and are very much capable of living their lives together as their heterosexual counterparts do.

What about heterosexuals who engage in risky and promiscuous sexual behavior?

Condemn the behavior, not the identity of the person.

In response, we should take steps to reduce unsafe sex and promiscuity in the gay community.

Unsafe Sex

Unsafe sex can be battled through education. Authorities cannot have campaigns to educate about safer homosexual sex when homosexual sex is banned in the first place. Banning homosexual sex is also not effective in battling HIV infection, since homosexuals will still engage in sex regardless of whether the ban is in place or not.

Banning homosexual sex to fight HIV infection within the gay community is like burying your head in sand in hopes that the problem will disappear. It will not. Singapore has to repeal 377A in order to start fighting HIV infections within the gay community.

Promiscuity

I would say that promiscuity is more of a men’s problem than a gay problem. It is exacerbated in the gay community because, well, it is an all-male group. I think from the statistics it is quite clear HIV is a bigger problem for men than women. In fact, lesbians are often considered a low risk group for HIV due to the nature of their sexual intercourse. I wish to see Curious state why lesbianism is a bad thing then then.

Marriage promotes fidelity. Same-sex marriage will reduce promiscuity within the community. Sure, it will not eradicate promiscuity completely, but it will help a bit at least. Coupled with gay couple adoption, it will provide for a family structure that promotes monogamy. It allows homosexuals to form family units that are the building blocks of society.

It’s called GID or gender identity disorder which can be “contagious” like fads are contagious..

Your condition is called homophobia, which is the symptom of bigotry and ignorance. Both of which are contagious.

Most sufferers of GID don’t know it until the hormone hits the fan.

Most homophobes don’t know that they are ignorant and bigoted, sometimes for life.

Yes, that’s true and the mainstream values hope that you will live your life to the fullest but please don’t ask for repeal of 377A and approval for same sex marriage.

The rights of minorities should not be left to the majority to decide.

If you don’t believe in same-sex marriage or homosexual sex, don’t engage in homosexual sex and same-sex marriage! Besides, wouldn’t allowing same-sex marriage promote monogamy and thus reduce promiscuity and HIV infection rates? 377A is just a toothless law that makes a mockery out of our penal code.

Canada and some parts of the USA approve them. Why don’t you check them out?

Because we are Singaporeans as much as heterosexuals are.

Those who live like Hell will end up there, for sure.

I don’t believe in Hell, but I’m not surprised you do. If there truly is a Hell, there surely is a special place reserved for people filled with hate like you.

I think they found this by talking to them in an anonymous interview. This was an assumption I used as in the USA, in the absence of data. Do you know how many of you are out there?

You think I thought who confirm? In any case, I don’t think the size of a minority matters when it comes to minority rights.

Not if you compare apples with apples and not chalk with cheese. The stats show that in the USA 55% of the Aids population came from 2% of the
population and that 2% is gay. If there is any perception that could come from the stats.

Yes, and because of the “gay disease” perception, there is a disproportionately larger number of gay men testing themselves, and thus a disproportionate higher rate of HIV infections discovered within the gay community.

That’s good if they comply and don’t go bare-backing or bug-chasing or rimming!

Heterosexuals too engage in unprotected sex, bug-chasing and anilingus.

That’s is true, maybe it’s because gays live hell.

The depth of your intelligence is shown in this nonsensical statement. You assert that gays represent a disproportionate number of HIV cases compared to heterosexual men. It is also quite clear from the statistics that men represent a disproportionate number of HIV cases compared to women. So what now? Ban males from having sex?

Yes, 377A of the Penal Code takes care of that.

What about the men who go to prostitutes and Batam and catch all kinds of diseases? They are as responsible for HIV infections as much as promiscuous homosexuals are.

The law says yes. See 377A. By the MOH advising them to use the ABC doctrine. They can’t because you guy won’t listen.

They can’t teach about safer homosexual sex because homosexual sex is illegal.
377A exacerbates the problem of HIV infection within the gay community by driving it underground.

They just want guys like you to keep away from their children

Do not conflate pedophiles with homosexuals.

If it so fundamental why are you guys in the very tiny tiny minority?

I don’t know. Why are left-handers in the very tiny tiny minority?

They will be treated with respect but they will be in a tiny tiny minority like you.

Respect is not telling them that they are an abomination and will burn in hell.

Singapore is not Iran or you will not be here to justify your GID.

I don’t need to justify my sexual orientation. I am who I am. You are justifying your hate for people you don’t understand.

And as for HIV statistics, you’ve stated more than a few times that gays give a disproportionately higher number of HIV cases. Fair enough. From the statistics, it can be seen that straight men give a disproportionately higher number of HIV cases compared to straight women. Please proceed and condemn masculinity.

@Zefly,

Bigots feel empowered in groups. It’s mob mentality.

Tolerance is never the defining trait of humankind. People usually hate and discriminate people they don’t understand and are different from them. It stems from ignorance. Of course, they would claim that they are anything but ignorant and are instead very knowledgeable about the matter, but they often give themselves away when they start to say anything regarding the matter.

1″Wow Curious, Isn’t it great, hiding behind the safety of a nick and typing out all these hate and venom? ”

Not true. What I am doing is to bring the light to those who have been in the dark ages. That is not hate. Saving lives is not hate. Saving lives is “love”, pal.

2″I mean, imagine if the gay people whom you describe as being friends and having no problem whatever-so with their orientation knows who is actually behind all these rantings… what would they do?”

I hope they would look at the facts, change their lifestyle and live a full, happy and LONG lives. If I can convince even one then it’s worth it.

But remember, those who will not change and who live like hell will end up there!

1″#20 Curious, I can see where you draw your inspiration from. Your idol, Dr Frank Joseph, is an ultra right-wing conservative who can’t seem to stop writing hate-filled articles about the gay community and pro-choice advocates. Yes, his statistics are not wrong. ”

Not true. His statistics match those from the CDC in Atlanta, Georgia. Why kill the messenger? See links that shows that from 2003 to 2007 cumulative the msm and msm with injection drug use and infected with Adis were 55%, See Table 4 here:

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/resources/reports/2007report/table4.htm

Dr FJ said “well above 50%” and so he was correct and spot on !!

2″But the same site that validates his numbers also has this very interesting bit of information: Globally, around 11% of HIV infections are among babies who acquire the virus from their mothers; 10% result from injecting drug use; 5-10% are due to sex between men; and 5-10% occur in healthcare settings.

You are being selective in your maths. The 5 to10% of Aids victims globally is proportionately VERY high as the number of gays in the world is a tiny fraction of the world population. If globally the gay population is only say 2% of worldwide population then a 10% of Aids in them is catastrophic!

3″SEX BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN ACCOUNTS FOR THE REMAINING PROPORTION – AROUND TWO THIRDS OF NEW INFECTIONS. (source: http://www.avert.org/worlstatinfo.htm).”

But the heterosexual population is closed to 6 billion so the percentage number of Aids is relatively lower than those for MSM as the msm population is very low indeed. This is what is ironically called the “economy of scale.” The higher your population, on a per capita basis, the incidence of Aids is very low.

Using the same website you listed here it says that “Today, although there are more high-risk groups, MSM still account for around two-thirds (66.7%) of HIV diagnoses among male adults and adolescents.” and it gave the CDC website as a reference for the data in the United States of America.

So see yr own link here for the USA : http://www.avert.org/america.htm

Then see the confirmation in Table 19 of this CDC website:

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/resources/reports/2007report/table19.htm

The msm takes up 44% of the Aids victims and if you add in those that do injection of drugs the figure rises to 67% for 2007.

4″Mr Curious, I’m sorry to have to break it to you, but your Dr Frank Joseph’s selective use of statistics to support his arguments is kinda, well… dishonest… don’t you think?”

No it’s not me who is suffering from selective amnesia. I am sorry to have to break it to you, Lynn that those who are in a denial mode and live like hell will end up there.

5″Just thought I’d point that out since you’re such a champion of truth.”

As opposed to you who are a champion of the fringe lunatics and nihilism ?

I am not surprised because some people won’t recognize the truth even if it turns around and bite them in the gluteus maximus.

if this fiasco never happen the parents also wont question the CSE, people will not flood there minds about anal sex, & HIV. cos tomorrow is just another day lah, so don’t talk like (some of) you so concern.

Aware is not that big a nanny, cannot be everywhere & take on every issue 1 has beef with.

Please amend this “So 25 gays population is 40,000 and 98% for non gays is 1,960,000.” to “So 2% gays population is 40,000 and 98% for non gays is 1,960,000.”

1″An example of Curious’ fuzzy math at work: Let say the male population is 50% in Spore as in the USA, then with a population of 4 mil the male population is 2 mil. The percentage of male Aids victims is therefore 392 divided by 2 mil or 0.0196 %. The percentage of male Aids victims in Spore exceeds the female victims by 12.6 times or by an INCREDIBLE 1260% in Singapore. Time to ban male sex and teach our young that being male is NOT okay!”

Nonsense. Your maths are as fuzzy as Kooky’s.

People get confused because of selective amnesia. Like Kooky you carelessly left out the vast differentials in the gay and non gay population !

You must compare apples with apples. You must state what is the gay population in the 2 millions of male citizens vs how many are non gay!

Since you don’t have the data I shall use 2% as in the USA . See Link below.
Table 2. Its not perfect but that the data I have. If you have other data, post them.

http://www.law.ucla.edu/williamsinstitute/publications/GayDemographics.pdf

So 25 gays population is 40,000 and 98% for non gays is 1,960,000.

MOH said the number of gay Aids victims was 130 in 2007.For heterosexuals it was 255.

If the gay pop is say 40,000, then the percentage of gay aids victims in that population was 0.325% The heterosexual percentage of Aids victims was 0.013%.

Therefore the gay Aids victims exceeds the heterosexual Aids victims still by 25 times, same calculated before or 2500% more then non gay aids victims.

Now lets compare them with the percentage of female Aids victims which was 31 divided by 2,000,000 = 0.00155%

The gay male Aids victims exceeded the female Aids victims by 210 TIMES!

The heterosexual Aids victims exceed the female Aids victims by only 8 times.

The figures shows without a doubt why anal gay sex should continue to be banned in Singapore under Penal Code 377A.

2″NOW if that is not a tragic eye-opener I don’t know what is !”..Seth.

You said it. Better get a reality check and a maths tutorial.

See more statistics Links from the CDC website in Atlanta, Georgia below”

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/msm/resources/factsheets/msm.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/Populations/msm.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/resources/reports/2007report/table4.htm

And Dr Frank Joseph’s statistics below :

http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/a02rStatistcs.html