“Historically however, no society has reversed a fertility rate below 1.9. In Singapore’s case, where our fertility rate is a mere 1.3, the situation is practically intractible. That is why the Government is trying to welcome foreigners into Singapore, to artificially boost the falling birth rate. But the consequences for the social fabric of our nation can be deep and longlasting.”

if our fertility rate is falling, and baby bonus is not working, what should we do?
it is not a matter of “growth at all cost”, where we are being greedy and wanting more. No, the reality is SIngapore is hemorrhaging slowing with the dependency ratio of elderly:working people increasing.

Options we have:
1) Reduce the number of older people
2) Increase the number of working people.

Since option one is a inhumane choice, we will have to increase the number of working people.

The qns: is there a better way of increasing working population?
or increasing foreigners is the best way, but it has negative side effects.
so the govt needs to mitigate the negative side effects.

up till now, no country has better soln other than increasing foreigners.

This is to say… Like the DODO Bird, the Original true-blue Singaporean will be extinct in the next 11 years.

[...] Read the full article at TOC: A nation of foreigners in 11 years [...]

“The qns: is there a better way of increasing working population?
or increasing foreigners is the best way, but it has negative side effects.
so the govt needs to mitigate the negative side effects.

up till now, no country has better soln other than increasing foreigners.”

so thats it? no need work on increasing local birth rate?? just take the easy way out? then why pay millions when any body can come out such a simple solution?

did they think why the locals are not reproducing?
with so much competition, financial obligations and other stress brought on by our ‘kind’ govt, most working guys nowadays don’t even have the mood to ‘rise up to the occasion’.

anyway its simple for me at least. if pap don’t stop importing foreign trash, they have lost my vote.

just came back from little china today
many chinese ahmas and maids asked me
it is true singapoor have the pot of gold waitin for us
the new chinese immigrants?
is it true that we can earned 5 times or even 10 times our present chinese wages?
i replied politeLEE
off course its TRUE
as lon as you want to be a street walker in geylargs
or a conman in hdb voidecks…
than again
you can alway open a peitu mam massage shop in a hdb centre districts….

Let face it, there is no original true-blue Singaporean? We are all descendant from immigrant from all over the world. What we need are people who are willing to sink their root in this little island and make it succeed like our forefather did.

I have been working with people of different nationality and races. It the human quality that count.

Trash or Gem is in the eye of the beholder. We need to filter the our gem out from the lot, some of the trash will move on to other country.

Somebody need to clear the trash we generate. We don’t care whether it a white cat or black cat, as long as it catch the mice, it a good cat…..

The population is more complex than just the “stop at 2 policy”.

Let face it, once we get married and had kids, our living standard drop. Not many Singaporean men/women have the courage to cross this threshold. During our parent time, we have a lower standard of living, and the drop in living standard is not as great as today.

In our generation, we had to serve the army for 2.5 years. It difficult to get to the local university when you are labeled as trash. We had to swim against the current to get a decent education and work on our career. When you get married, the HDB mess up big time. It took to long for young couple to get housing. By the time you have kids, oops the ovary expiry date is up. How many kids can you have? That was the Singapore middle class problem. We need the bigger middle class to regenerate the country. That where the miss it.

The country current situation is just the reflection of the past policy. We need to address this for the current and future generation. It not going to be easy, but our children and grandchildren depend on our decision today.

Frankly, It going to cost us maybe $500,000 to bring a child to adult hood. You could import a fully working adult at no cost to the country!

The elderly of tomorrow will not be the same as the elder of present, we are better educated than our parent were and will make more different to our grandchildren.

Let leave the past behind and move forward for our children sake. Next time we see a fellow Singaporean, ask them “How many generation your family been here?”

i think the perception that government policy as pro-foreigner is in part xenophobic, and in part self-interested. the reality is is that the singapore government is stricter than most in its treatment of foreigners. for example, even PRs pay a higher rate for publicly subsidised healthcare, whereas in britain, NHS benefits are extended to foreign students and workers with the appropriate visa. the govt has been very selective in extending rights of settlement and employment, and citizenship, to foreigners, although i feel that its selectiveness is misguided. for example, it admits a disporpotionate ammount of chinese workers on the assumption that its in the best intersets of singapore and the maintenance of the social fabric to sustain what they think is the racial ratio, even though that is highly problematic as people from china face the same problems of social integration as any other foreigner.

to make your argument more persuasive, it would be useful to cite evidence to show that wages at the bottom end of the economic spectrum are depressed by teh presence of cheap foreign labour, and to show that its in the interests of society at large that we exclude such foreigners. one might argue that in keeping wages low it affords middle class singaporeans the ability to enjoy services at a far lower cost than elsewhere in the developed world. perhaps the solution is not to artificially raise wages by limiting the market, but instead to ensure that singaporeans who earn less than a living wage get welfare benefits to ensure that they are not excluded from the benefits of prosperity. this would involve changing middle class attitudes towards property and taxation, and to create a culture where the better off in society feel an obligation to help those less fortunate.

4) reader

“did they think why the locals are not reproducing?
with so much competition, financial obligations and other stress brought on by our ‘kind’ govt, most working guys nowadays don’t even have the mood to ‘rise up to the occasion’.”

>>
maybe that is true. but maybe it is also the preference of people change when they reach development. most developing countries even the welfare paradises of europe also has this problem.

I applaud SG’s govt to import more foreigners, especially those who work in the service sector. I feel that those foreigners, e.g. Filipinos, Indonesians, Malaysians, Myanmese, etc are a lot more service-oriented and customer-oriented, compared to local Singaporeans.
Let’s face it! Local Singaporeans don’t know what the word “customer service” means! Locals never smile when they serve you, they’re not patient, some even yell at you (the paying customer! can you imagine!?), they just want your money and want you to get out of their face the sooner the better.

Let’s just face it guys, “service” is not really Singaporeans’ key strength.
That’s why I prefer to patronise shops manned by foreign service staff (e.g. Filipinos, Indonesians, etc) because by nature they are friendlier and more service-oriented. And therefore, I support SG’s govt decision to import those foreign talents for better service and teach local-born Singaporeans a thing or two about “service”.

Dear I Love Singapore on June 22nd, 2009 8.20 am

Could you kindly ask the gov to abolish National SERVICE since the locals are so terrible?

BTW are you aware that in most developed countries, the service sectors pays a decent salary to their sales staff and waitress that allows them a decent standard of living? How do you smile and give 100% when you earn 1100 to 1200 (without TIPS and commission) before CPF?

The foreign imports, can be happy, because they will be on a flight back in years to come to a detached house in their homeland and their retirement taken care of because of the strength of the Sing dollar. Where can the locals go to?

You obviously have no sense of perspective when u are so ready to share your 2 cents worth.

Have to agree with #9 on the quality of FT service staff — even those who can’t speak English.

Sad.

Adding to 8#, not always true that only higher standard of living leads to lower birth rates — S’pore govmin reason for local population not breeding.

Do you know that in animal kingdom, animals living in poor quality habitats breed less to conserve energy? And studies have shown that human populations in poor quality enviroment, or under threat of extinction, breed less.

Surprised that MM who reads a lot doesn’t draw conclusions from these alternative facts. But then that would show that he didn’t do such a gd job.

Dear Roy (#10),

It’s still not a justification to yell at your customer. Ever visited Thailand or Indonesia? Even there, where their pay is a tiny fraction of your S$1100 to 1200, they still SMILE to you and give you their best and warmest service, without fail!

I am sorry to hear about the lack of “decent” salary for Singaporean service sector and the astronomical high cost of living.
Maybe time to talk to your government about these grievances?

But again, the reality of life remains that SERVICE is not local-born Singaporeans’ strength.

I recommend this interesting article:

http://www.indonesiamatters.com/5445/smiling-smiley/

And of course Thailand too, the land of smiles. :-)

Cheers,

I Love Singapore (though the Singaporeans hardly smile) :-)

Dear I Love Singapore on June 22nd, 2009 8.20 am

I did a mini-research over last weekend at Toa Payoh. I just covered 3 blocks of shops in Toa Payoh Central and this is what i observed:

70% of the shops have atleast 1 foreign worker. All of which are from China. Only 10% of these 70% can speak BASIC-but broken english. The rest cannot even understand the word “how much”, “new”, “nets”, “cash”, “colours” etc etc etc… Now let us face the fact that Singapore is a multi-racial country (it is even reflected in our pledge) and we have a policy of English as first language. Also we have english speaking tourist shopping in Singapore.

Let us ponder…

Hi All,

Singapore citizens and PRs should not be classified as 1 group but to be separated.

It does not make any sense if the PR is just making good money in Singapore before he/she decides to return to Malaysia or India to buy a big plot of land for retirement.

They are not doing any form of National Service and have no voting rights either.

Obviously the problem will be a big thorn in the eye, that is why these 2 groups have to be lumped together.

I won’t be surprised the fall of PAP lies in the hands of foreigners. Nope, they won’t be given another term to rule this country like Singaporeans don’t exit.

With people increasing their productive age by working well beyond
55, they are no longer dependent on the “younger ones” So the fear
of having a higher dependency ratio does not hold.

However, if we keep importing foreigners into our shores, even if our
old ones want to work, they will not stand a chance of being employed
as SMEs and retail will hire younger foreigners, even for the same wage.
Then it will become a self fulfilling prophecy, that we have to support the
elderly, when in the first place, they can support themselves if only they
are given a shot at work.

Why do we need 6.5 million in SIngapore?
For whose benefit is it?
What is in it for the man-on-the-street when we achieve the 6.5 million
target?
Do people enjoy living in even more crowded conditions then presently?

As far as I know, I prefer less crowded conditions. Economic growth is
only good up to a certain point. Thereafter, we seek other things in life.
Surely we do not spend our entire life solely in pursuit of wealth as an end.

I would say that at present only around 60% of the people living in Singapore are Singaporeans ie born in Singapore. All the PRs are obviously foreigners. Of the 3.1 million citizens, probably around two to three hundred thousand are living overseas anyway. The trend of more and more “quitters” will continue, even accelerate, which will exacerbate the situation even more. All depends on what your view of life is, and your status in Singapore society, as to whether the current Government policies and strategies are sustainable/desirable or not.

Long term populations will be 6 millions. Imagine another 1 millions added to the working populations and now even local degrees holders can’t find jobs.

Reason is simple, is cheaper to employer FTs cause no extra liability like CPF, NS and you can contract FT for 2 year and need not waste time recuritments!

It will reduce the exist local 2.8 millions populations and by law of elimination, in 2030. Local Singaporeans is just a liability to the country!
Better think of way to escape from Singapore like Austrialia before age 45yrs!
After 40 yrs, it is useless to be a Singaporean even you are so or so Managers,
nobody want to employ you with a decent salary unless you in ruling class!

Look far 2030 is very soon! Another 20 year time! Escape is best option!

I laugh at the govt’s attempt to integrate foreigners from over 10 countries. Impossible.

This is called policy of mass destruction – destroying Singaporeans national identity, destorying the root of our forefather, destroying our pink IC value, destroying the sovereign of our state, destroying 33% of the opposing populations and still increasing, destroying the loyalty of our NS men, destroying jobs meant for local, destroying a place for university for local, destroying the peace and tranquility of this nation, destroying the value of equality….etc War has started as we saw Singaporeans became refugees in our own land all waiting to be send to JB or Batam when the time comes to depart with our credit buried deep in forgotten underground while one man still remains and called himself god of the land with his name crafted in steel for future rememberance.. Then we asked ourselves, what was the reward for being a Singaporean and all the past struggle to build this nation? was it for ourselves or for someone else? Do we want to see our children following our steps again?

@9) I Love Singapore

Don’t know how old this person is, but sure talk like a young pappie with VERY shallow life experiences, or a real A-Kisser. True-blue Singaporeans of old HAD grace, courtesy, values and service-mindedness (maybe not in the formalized forms of today) – they do greet next-door neighbours, help someone that has fallen on the streets, etc. Unfortunately, much is diluted DIRECTLY because of our past & foreign import policies as:

1) the 2-is-enough policy brought about a breed of super brats. This is also experienced in China where they are having a generation of “little emperors/empresses” from their similar 1-is-enough ruling.

2) our high living cost forced many women to work to supplement the take-home income. This directly led to the foreign maid industry and its associated issues. Kids growing up with maids are generally rude, disrespectful towards authority, lack respect for anyone of “lower” status, lack value guidance from early stage, alpha-adult dependant, etc… They are programmed to DEMAND to be served but have no concept of serving. Perhaps learnt from their parents — see money thrown to make them happy, so in their adult lives, also think money will solve everything.

3) It is known that a leader has a wider span of influence – either positively or negatively – i.e. the actions of a leader influence 10-15 others. 10-15+ years back, there weren’t that many FT managers so working environments were quite cordial. But from experience even one lousy FT manager can spread havoc to a working environment. THey are “kiasu” (yes, our Kiasuism is much imported) and are “foreignly educated in scheming ways” (e.g. concept of EQ – again for good or for evil); unfortunately Singaporeans soon pick up such behaviours. Have at least 3-4 FTs in an organisation, and you have real politics, Pronto! Most are open about leaving on first boat out of Spore if anything happens. Really degrade those that had served NS. Think, where is the motivation is your boss sucks?

4) Society is conditioned by “collective learning” – you see daily 2-3 people rushing to help someone on the streets, you have the urge to help also. Now, in a crowd, say 50% are FT/Fws who have are not compelled to be involve in “local” affairs (e.g. if you were in Thailand, would you have joined their street demons.?), you see left/right nobody stepping forward, so would ‘9)I Love Singapore’ stand up? Someone may point to incidences where FT/FW help someone, but on the balance, is this the rule or exception to the molding of our society?

5) You highlight the smiling faces of FTs/FWs. For sure one NTU lecturer who was slashed & another GF who gotton pushed into path of an MRT train ain’t sharing your views. And these are by top-seed, foreign scholars! In fact, most of the gruelsome murders in recent years her are by FT/FWs. So, do we prefer non-smiling but non-violent Sporeans or smiling psychopaths?

6) Maybe instead of considering the ratio of FT/Fw to “Singaporeans”, TOC should consider the ratio of those that had served NS to those that have not. Now, THIS is gonna to be even more depressing! Basically, and I think many echo this viewpoint: “WHAT IS THE VALUE OF HAVING DONE NS TO A MALE SINGAPORE IN OUR ECONOMIC ENVIRONMENT?” Retire to a JB nursing home? Oh, service better over there lah!?

PS. Very patroitic nomer ‘I Love Singapore” ? If a shooting war breaks out, will you be statistically/determistically be the third person to be KIA in an operation? Simple YES/NO, pls.

At first father made a mistake to stop at 2 and now the son make another mistake to import and procreate to 6.5 mil ppl. We will see later that S’pore overpopulated with foreigners with housing, jobs, social problems etc rising.

I’ve received good and bad customer services from both locals and foreign imports. So its ridiculous to generalize.

But frankly, the Govt barely hides its disdain for the heartlanders, whom are generally less educated, and it considers most of them as liabilities. Exceptions are those who made it rich (of course lah!) in businesses. After all, these plebian heartlanders don’t contribute a lot of cash to the Govt even in their prime, and the Govt is trying to find means of how NOT to spend money on these people when they become old and useless. Delay their medical treatment via long waiting times so they would die quickly? Push them over to Malaysia to get their healthcare? Or perhaps encourage large scale euthanasia (the ‘exciting’ latest alternative)?

On the other hand, the Govt also differentiates the foreigners it considers of economic value vs those who are merely providing labour. The latter are welcomed to join the existing elite ‘patricians’. The latter are sent back after they made their money. If the latter stay back in Singapore, they will join the ranks of the plebian heartlanders and suffer the same fate. But for these, sometimes it is considered preferable to what they would face back in their homeland.

Hmm. We are getting to be more and more like the Roman Republic, consisting of those who have rights, and those who don’t. What Asian values???

this is what’s all about in singapore situation regarding what they say is true…..?

i have been in the business of contruction industry for almost 30 years now which just ‘O’ level education, but i excelled to my discretion of self learning and hard work in term of specialities in this particualarly industry. i knew of professionals who have no choice but stick to their dignity and remained to work on merely enough wages just to float due to competition from foreigners who flooded in the same industry. i too often struggling to sustain the business and family of 5 (3 kids) just to survive (to pay for inhuman rising costs here) as i can only get not more than $1,500.00 if i have to work for other company. i see myself to work stil the day i cant move unless nature call for.

they are lot of borned singaporean like me (50 years old) who stil strong and hungry for work and entrepreneur spirits for next 20 years to come.

i have many times questioning actually what the hell is the government having doing all these years for which i have voted them and i damn disappointed of their performance.

i can only pray for God Blessed!

At the rate we import PRC low life and convert theminto instant citizens, we’ll become Chinapore in no time. Just look at the massage joints filled with China women. They’re more of them than 7-Eleven stores.

For the Lee’s to Hold Power for another 50 years is a Real Problem!

We are not like North Korea with homogenous society, where the Kim can hold power for another 50 year! Father to Son to GrandSon!

FTs like PRC are not so simple, they are brought in a very competitive environment and dare to challenge Authority if you insults their dinity!
Look at Liu GuDong challenge Lee Bee Wah!
Do Singaporean dare to do that ,no cause we had no base unless you want to JB

So look for a Base in Austrialia or Elsewhere elsewhre before too late! Never Consider Singapore your Home! This is just a Company! Use and Dispose!

#12 I Love Singapore on June 22nd, 2009 9.30 am

I work in a service industry dominated by foreigners. I have personally seen foreign staff scolding elderly clients. I have also seen foreign staff providing sub-standard professional care to elderly clients. Most of the time, the victims are the non-English speaking local elderly. Is it because they deem the non-English speaking elderly clients unable to complain of their poor service? I do not know.

As for the fake smiles, yes, there are lots. The pay is enough for some foreign staff to be hypocritical. I have seen them all smiles to the customer, but in the staff room out-of-view, some would viciously curse the customer and their families (who are not involved in the incident). While Singaporeans may whine a lot, I have not seen such viciousness in the local born-and-bred Singaporeans.

From my personal observations that foreign staff DO NOT equate better service. Yes, there are good foreign staff and bad ones. Just like there are good local staff and bad ones.

27) Hahaha on June 22nd, 2009 12.06 pm ,

i concur with you totally. sometime, i wonder, why not the million dollar ministers go for such a short course in disguise, say, for 3 months to get the first hand feel about what is actually happening in these foreigners behaviours and not relying on thier assistance who provide nothing but lies and cover ups.

[...] Strangers in a Strange Land – TOC: A nation of foreigners in 11 years [...]

i would say that the govt need to pay more attention in strengthening our national identity.. something that we can connect culturally and emotionally and makes us feel more proud to be a singaporean.

Too many people have migrate to other countries, no official statistics have be revealed but i reckon that is a figure that is just as astonishing.

By bringing foreign “quitters” to our country and boost our economy simply worsen the already fragile social fabric that is much more important to strengthen the country in times of adversities.

Personally, I’m very disappointed with the porous and permeable singapore citizenship. Looking at the frequent ceremonies of PRs and foreigners collecting their pink ICs, It just makes me wonders how much really are our citizenship are worth. Are we the same as the new citizens?? Well, I would say new citizens are better without the responsibilities of some of the true blue singaporeans.

NSF and NSmen and Regular out there do u feel sometimes the land u are protecting is getting more and more distant and foreign to you? All the sentry, prowling duties plus defence missions in the jungles and urban missions are no longer for your families and friends but more of the foreign expats and new citizens.

Majulah singapura.

If PRs are grouped together with the foreigners, is Singapore already a nation of foreigners ?

What if newly minted (i.e. less than 5 years old) Singapore Citizens are also grouped together with the foreigners? Is Singapore already a nation of foreigners (i.e. less than 50% are born-and-bred locals)?

I walk around my HDB town central and I hear foreign languages/accents more often than local accents.

# 30 paradox on June 22nd, 2009 12.22 pm

“All the sentry, prowling duties plus defence missions in the jungles and urban missions are no longer for your families and friends but more of the foreign expats and new citizens.”

No lah, red herring there. NS is to protect the assets of the nation. Only thing not openly defined is “who/what are considered assets of the nation?” Elites? White horses and their families? Or the heartlanders?

i may quite concerned about youngers nowaday including my daughter who so apathing and lack of country’s future interest. in fact, i just reminded her yesterday that unless they are serious and focus on their future with full heart and fight for rights otherwise in 5 to 10 years time she is going to regret and remember what i had said.

i concur with your article that if control is not in place, by then the reality is damn real.

#7

What talk you?

“to make your argument more persuasive, it would be useful to cite evidence to show that wages at the bottom end of the economic spectrum are depressed by teh presence of cheap foreign labour”

Prominent S’pore econmist proved this in 1990s. As solution, he proposed something like Workfare. As Workfare was introduced in 2006, govmin has accepted his thesis, after rubbishing him.

I remembered back in the 80s. Our streets were almost spotless.

That I believe was inculcated into us how not to litter. Its all about personal pride and being proud to be SIngaporean. Till today, as a middle age person, I will still keep the sweet wrapper in my pocket only to be discarded when am home.

Today, if you were to observe carefully. The streets are no longer spotless. HDB units are looking more like slums. Useless mails and flyers are strewn all over the floor next to our mailboxes. I didn’t understand why it was so bad until I realized that there heaps of ‘NEW SIngaporeans’ living in HDBs. Who do you think could be the culprit?
(Only the locally born Singaporean will understand where I am coming from)

At the age of 18, we were drafted into the NS. 3 months BMT, in Terror Camp, Sembabwang.
Another 3 months in SISL, SAFTI, plus another 3 months undergoing Guards conversion course and then finally to the unit to train men for another 3 months.

Finally, we were ready and operational. Brothers in arms, equipped with knowledge, strength, to handle M16, GPMG, SAW, Grenade Launcher and etc. we are ready to defend the country.
(Only the locally born Singaporeans will understand where I am coming from)

Do you reckon the ‘NEW SINGAPOREAN’ will pick up arms to defend SINGAPORE.

Guess they are only economic migrants, seeking their pot of fortune and will not hesitate to pack up, swipe their ass and head back to their little hometown to seek refuge and enjoy the Sing$ conversion.

#28 mike on June 22nd, 2009 12.14 pm

Yes, even when the ministers ride on public transport or go on their walkabouts, everything is pre-planned. A particular public transport carriage is reserved for their use, so no crowd. The path along the HDB estate is extra-cleaned beforehand. Their shoe-polishers go in advance to suss out the pro-PAP residents/businessman, so that the entourage will stop and speak only with the locals with “good news”.

I would like to urge Singaporeans to be more tolerant to our FTs. We should not blame people for wanting to better their lives. The true blame should lie with our own politicians, who are selling us out and devaluing our citizenship. Serving NS to protect FT jobs is especially galling.

Suggestion:
How about all FTs should pay a NS tax, which will go towards increasing our NS allowance? C’mon, they don’t have to go through this shit, so to be fair, they should be glad to pay us to do it :p

Has the Govt asked itself why are S’poreans so sensitive about the issue?
Is it because we failed miserably in nation building that everyone in so insecure?
Is it because we lack national identity and only see ourselves as kiasu and kiasi?
Sadly, we are a very exclusive society, excluded from many rights and liberties that could have bonded us with our leaders and trusted them to do what is in our best interest.

It’s been 50 years and we are still finding ourselves. Imagine a 50 year old adult feeling this way? You’d have every right to ask what have the parents been doing???

Dear Government,

I really do not understand why do you want to increase the population to 6.5M. At current 4.8M, me as a local Singaporean is already feeling the stress, strain and over-crowdedness. Price of resale HDB has went up tremendously, the undersupply of BTO new flats are always oversubscribed by at least 5 times. I just got married, but has to stay with my family due to a lack of new flats and inexpensive resale flats. My colleagues are mostly foreigners, Filipinos, Indonesians, China, Malaysians and many of my friends are losing their jobs to the cheap foreign talents. These made us feel really lost and “untalented” and we often wonder what is our identity and benefits as true Singaporeans who have born, bred up and served our national services here.

If you are really working towards the well-being of Singaporeans, please stop the influx of foreigners. Economy progression at a rate of 7%, yet jeopardizing the welfare and well-being of us true Singaporeans are not what we desired for. I would rather settle for a less crowded, less competitive, less GDP progression, more self identity, more true Singaporeans and happier nation.

Why all the gripes ? Leave if you are not happy. No body in Singapore is indispensable nor irreplaceable. Be he the prime minister or a pauper. The door is always open for you to leave. And be assured that no one will mourn or that an earth quake will erupt if you leave. There are many countries waiting only with open arms to welcome you after all you are literate-, Australia, New Zealand, US ,UK Malaysia, Indonesia ,Timor Leste and many other countries.
Singaporeans by nature are arrogant ,complaining, cowardly money minded and always think highly of themselves. They do not want to get married and when they do, they don’t want children and if they have children they expect the government to provide them with housing but always complaining that the cost of housing and everything else is too expensive.
High time we import more and more of these foreigners who should be able to teach us many things, to be a bit kinder and more gracious not only to our immediate neighbours but also to animals

That’s how great “kingdom” or “empire” falls. They “stop” listening. PAP has passed its’ prime and the “alternate” voices have been “silent” by the current policies and laws. The future for singapore is “bleak” indeed. How “fast” or “hard” Singapore will fall is anybody’s guess.

For heartlanders, it’s either get “in” (be a part of the elite class), or get “out” (leave the country and become “elite” somewhere else). There are no quitter in the current economic model, there’s only successes or failures; i.e. either you make it or you don’t.

Dear E-Jay,

I have been observing your articles and posts in the blogosphere and forumosphere and even Offline at HLP.

I hereby would like to seek your help to RUN FOR ELECTION under the opposition team.

I BEG You to give them a run for the money. Beg is a strong word in my dictionary.

We need people like you who HAVE stepped forward – you are on the radar screen liao. People know you.

On my part, I offer full support for your campaign , should you answer the call.

I urge the people to put this guy into the parliament and speak up for us!

To be honest, I have no 100% confidence in this model of growth-at-all-cost.

why is singapore economy in such a state for the last 1 year?

to be fair, it has been this model for a long time.

but we must compare apple with apple.

compare obama salary with their salaries. They are not the highest only. They are the highest top 30 at least. TOP 30 in the world. All gold medals so-2-speak.

I think Obama is clean. Who has proof he is not or done something wrong? You know there is no proof.

Obama is the person who will/have to save the world. His salary?

Losses are unavoidable sometimes. But it still depends on the nature of the Losses incurred. How did it lose? Abu windfall leh. Who knows the truth? Trust?
What have you done? silent.

High pay is also not entirely a bad thing. This thing is what to Expect out of this. What have you expect? Did you expect or demand some kind of Transparency and performance and Integrity?

Is it fair if we demand performance non Mediocre AND higher than Obama’s performance? How many jobs have he generated or going to? What pressure is he under? What responsibilities he has?

What is the future going to be like based on this model which has proven what it can do and it cannot do?

#40 Holland C is right!

For those who can you have the option of starting afresh elsewhere. It will not be too different form staying behind as you’ll be the minority here.

You see, many of those I know have plans to leave. So locals staying behind will really be in a land of foreigners; except that you’ll be living with them in one of the most expensive places in the universe. On the treadmill, you’ll have to run doubly fast just the stay in the same spot. Getting out of the “rat race” will certaintly stay a life-long dream for many.

For those staying, social, political and economic norms will definitely change. The compliant culture of local born and raised singaporeans will be history. You’ll have to put up with more demanding and vocal foreigners who will be less law abiding and docile.

Leaders will need to pacify a group of foreigners who “joint” at the best of times. Any deterioration of living standards will be frowned upon and not amicably as born and bread singaporeans do in the past. So don’t expect the same peace and tranquality of life that you’re used to know.

Imagine another 50 years of getting a nation together? The choice is yours folks!

Most of the foreigners is from Malinland China? What about us? The Real blooded Singaporeans?

They going to dump us in eleven years and we wont allowed that to happen, its totally insane. Singapore is more likely to become another ’small’ China.

More and more singaporeans born in the 50’s, 60’s,70’s are voicing up their concern about job security and retirement .

Initially, during singapore’s early days in the 60’s, 70’s and even 80’s and 90’s, most supported strongly and even based on TRUST.

Over the years, as shown by the weaker than before performance in the polls, this support base appears to be weakening. 33% has officially shown their displeasure or disapproval or wanting more change in a faster manner.

Compare the olden days and the current days.

New immigrants who could easily come from the FW / FT or expat community, come from poorer large countries which are 3rd worlds in general. Comparing 3rd world living environment with 1st world environment is of course an UNFAIR one if not convincing one based on concept of Apple-Apple comparison.

With hundreds of thousands of these ALREADY occupying jobs and living spaces here, if not operating businesses here and investing here, its a good move in my opinion to have an open arm policy to attract those who want to live here. This could indirectly or directly mean more new citizens who may support the existing policies.

For a tiny population of a few million, already hundreds of thousands composed of FT, FW, new immigrants are already in our midst.

Well done. sure to work.

I Applaud the policy!

I am an employer and support more FT and FW to help me lower business cost. If the overall salary is lowered, I would clap with both legs too.

25% foreigners only?

what a joke. that figure obviously doesn’t include PRs. throw those into the pot and the true(er) figure’d stand at 40% foreigners.

bet some people don’t want this leaked. so they put out an 11-year horizon to desensationalize our reactions to time.

The genocide of Singapore’s true Singaporean has begun. This holocaust is really well-planned by the father & son Co.

Economically speaking, I do understand why the influx of more people into Singapore is a good thing but beyond the dollars and cents, the stress on our social fabric is worst off. I am sure many of us here can attest to the overcrowding over many places in Singapore, on the road, on the mrt trains at non peak hours, etc. It is just showing us prove that our system cannot cope. It will be a matter of time, the system will break and fail.

The situation will not be pretty then. remember the story of the locust, when they have fed enough or when there is no longer food for them, they will move off. I liken this to happen to Singapore and like many great cities of the past, as soon as our ‘golden’ era pass, many will come to leave.

Wake up your Idea!

For Economic Progress, we need Land(limited), Labour(influx of FTs) and Innovation/Technologies(We lacking compare Korea, Taiwan)

Wake up you Idea! If no FTs, HDB prices will drop and better sell before FTs go home! That why Singaporean so immersed in Properties cause Limited!

Thank to Mah Boh Tan for making HDB so expensive!

If I don’t have any offspring, I do not have to worry about their future in Singapore. Thank god, I really don’t have any children.

Better Leave Before 2030- 20 years from now.

It is a disaster to stay here! Very few youngs to support the many Olds!
FTs just want their money and won’t call this home and will leave if something wrong!

LKY may get up from his grave to save Singapore! Hope So!

Hello folks, don’t forget our childrens do face similar compeition from foreigners’ students. Nowadays, there isn’t time to relax and enjoy stuyding except Paper Chase. Poor kids as from K1 to Uni.

I came across a student fr China able to get a PR even she just landed here at a very short while. Maybe she has a UNI paper from oversea that enable her get it so quickly without much of contribution to our nation.. She admit that she leave here for better place for oversea work after completing her MBA course.

What she want is a S’pore pasport and education cert easily for her find a job elsewhere. Many are just using us as a spring board for own interest. There isn’t any attachment or loyalty to S’pore and I do not understand how our government can allow this to happen by easily issue PR to them.

Our poor children will be prepare to face more challenges ahead as all this influx foreigners’ childrens come in to steal the seats from us.

Let’s see how much money will need to spend on this coming NDP celebrations!!!! Any Answer fellow ????

PRs should not be classified as “locals” because of the fact that it is very easy to obtain PR status here. If you check ICA website, there is no minimum period of stay (unlike in all other developed countries) and there is no minimum set of criteria for potential S’pore PR to satisfy. This is deliberate because our govt is aiming for more foreigners to become PRs, so that statistics such as unemployment rate can be further clouded….because PRs are classified together with S’pore citizens as “locals” or “residents”.

In aggregate, PRs are foreigners made up 35% of the population at end December 2008!! How many developed countries have that level of foreigners?

#15) David on June 22nd, 2009 10.01 am
‘I won’t be surprised the fall of PAP lies in the hands of foreigners.’
……………………………………………………..

One generation after 1981 the opposition parties cannot even get more than 2 MPs into parliament because the loyal citizens are ‘kiasi’ to vote against the PAP. These future-citizen foreigners are different. They dare to protest at the MOM to get their unpaid wages while no Singaporeans dare to do so.They can always return to the countries of origin when the situation is bad here.

Why is the government so desperate to increase the influx of foreigners so rapidly? It is like the country is running out of time. This reminds me how fast the government cleared out all the farms until there are so much empty land that people are invited to tender for them for farming again.

E-Jay,
You have brought up an important issue and you are right about the need for “A more sustainable model of economic management that recognizes the long term limitations of our nation’s growth rate”.

The “GDP growth at all costs” model is not suitable. GDP growth as an end itself will get us into serious trouble as it’s doesn’t take account of those things that are not measured in money terms like environment, health, space, harmony, and happiness. Hence policies that promote GDP have to be examined holistically taking account of the impacts on these non-monetised aspects.

The government is pursuing growth by implementing policies that grow the population and simultaneously increase the percentage of those of productive age. The first is giving rising concern about the limitations and resources, and the second about the dilution of the natives (borned and bred in Singapore). These concerns raises the question if it is the right course to take. The undelying drivers for pursuing growth, I believe , is a genuine concern that if we do not grow we will be left behind and the aging population.

I shall deal with the growth issue another time and take on the aging one here.

Many developed nations appears to face the same aging issue. Some got there by not understanding the implications of social trends brought about by increasing choices of ordinary people which were made possible by changes in policies, social attitudes, and technological changes. Singapore made it worse by not adjusting its population target until it very late. This lever needs a very long lead time as population takes a long time to correct. Also the population mix has to be managed which also takes a long time to correct. But both are not rocket science stuff if one knows what one wants and adjust early.

Having ended in the early or mid 2000’s with a population and a mix less than what is deemed appropriate (debatable) for a certain target (debatable) economy size, our government thinks the solution lies in importing certain types of people. Indeed it is the fastest way to correct marginal imbalances but like all things if used too much it turns out to be bad. For our case, your figures suggest that the natives of Singapore may well end up eventually like the red Indians of America with a twist that there will be a springling of rich and aging Singapore natives dispersed around hospitable parts of the world. We need to know from our leaders what the Singapore natives represent in the national economic and population targets our leaders are setting for us 5 or 10 years out. After that we have clarity and can debate meaningful about the choices.

For one reason or another, no use , the people will continue to accept whatever policy in place or to be inpace, based on personal analysis and historical evidence. See, no one voicing up at HLP. Very good and quite park for playing freezbie and line dancing or watch oldies movie. these activities help us forget about bad times as we can feel good when dancing or watching oldies.

We are singaproeans, remember that. We Trust and support for half century. non-stop. Whatever the hikes, we eventually get used to it.

So, we shall continue to support. and take the bitter medicine that is said to be good for us!

So, I am in full support of the policies. I am an employer. Singaporeans wage demands are just too high for me. How can I profit more or survive if I cannot lower the labor cost? I got family to support you know? People should be counting their lucky stars instead as foreigners help you keep your job!

I hope my views can be tolerated.

#51) Yang on June 22nd, 2009 4.53 pm
‘What she want is a S’pore pasport and education cert ………………….. Many are just using us as a spring board …………………. I do not understand how our government can allow this to happen …………………………..’
…………………………………………….

It was reported in the media that LKY said that if 3 out of 10 foreigners remain and become citizens it is good enough. So, the government is allowing this to happen. Very simple explanation.

Edward on June 22nd, 2009 5.34 pm

#51) Yang on June 22nd, 2009 4.53 pm
‘What she want is a S’pore pasport and education cert ………………….. Many are just using us as a spring board …………………. I do not understand how our government can allow this to happen …………………………..’
…………………………………………….

It was reported in the media that LKY said that if 3 out of 10 foreigners remain and become citizens it is good enough. So, the government is allowing this to happen. Very simple explanation.

Hi Edward,

I can attest to this fact, I personally know a few of these ‘foreign talents’…

1. PRC chinese…came to singapore to study in NUS, graduated and worked in a big US MNC…her sights were set on europe..so she worked and got her PR status in Singapore..a year or two later, using this PR status a platform, she leapfrog to Brussels, Belgium…and live there ever since…

2. Filipino Couple…from the same MNC I used to work, worked hard while they were here..got pink passports even..of course under the radar, kept looking for opportunities to work in canada, got it..and renounce their citizenship and settle down nicely in Vancouver.

3. PRC, same MNC…Can’t even speak proper english…worked in Singapore, transferred from China…worked and then opportunity came, gave up her PR for Toronto.

From the examples, you can see…I am sure there are many cases more.

i have been dealing with FTs so often that i hardly see any real singaporean in charged in my course of business. where are the singaporean fellows – dead, shadow by FTs and totally retired??

even the malaysian PRs who worked here for many years dont even consider singapore in future. they literally told me once it is done, off they go. the true is, almost all FTs i dealt with said the same thing. the saddest thing you have in mind when you heard these – they are here for only education, money exchange, fairness competition for enchancement of their survival and make as much as they can and in the end back to their motherland when time comes. poor borned singaporean………….

so GOVERNMENT, do you really know or chose not to know about it??

Authentically born-in-Singapore live-in-Singapore work-in-Singapore play-in- Singapore hold-only-Singapore-passport parents-slogged-for-Singapore children’s future-are-uncertain TRUE-BLUE Singaporeans, we should demand for exclusive long term welfare programs for ourselves and family members.

Won’t you guys agree?

hi Notalone,

i totally agree with what you mentioned in post #59.

During the good times, FT flourished, and guess what… they are still here during the bad times .. They worked and send back her remittance back to their homeland to buy land, build businesses and beautiful mansion. Jobs generating from big oversea businesses (setting up in SG), as well as MNC, do generate jobs for the local however, in professional position, there is quite a high percentage of hese goes these FT.

These big businesses and MNC chose SG strategically because of its location and stability. Contribution made to SG government by form of taxes and promised of jobs creation in SG… jobs to Singaporeans? I’m working in a financial institution (MNC), and in my department (of about 80), i dare say that 40-50% of the jobs goes to “FT”. There’re no quota/ restriction in employing “FT” because the HR or recruitment can claim that they had “exhausted” all resources to find “suitable” local candidates, and have no choice but to “employ” the “FT”. Even the HRs are “FT” themselves…

I am a local, served my dues to the national by performing NS and be called anytime to protect my countries. If there’s a war, i’ll be called to serve the nation and protect my family here in SG. If there’s a war, where will the huge, what are the million foreign nationals stand? Fight for their country.. SG? or go back to their homeland?

Complain as much as you like.
The government does not consider your opinion and WILL continue what they perceived as BEST for this country. As they mentioned, they are not elected to make popular decisions and you all have gave them the mandate so stop complaining. Even next election, i foresee the present party will beat the oppostion HANDS DOWN. I will love to eat back my words but sorry, i really don’t see it happening.

I, as a Singaporean, as a father, always ponder what will become of my country, my family, my children and me in distance future. Am i fated to lie in bed waiting for my death in a small HDB room, like my grandfather did? My grandfather was a policeman until he pensioned, and he lost the ability to walk, he was in the room most of the time.

Do my daughters have to compete with the “FT” for jobs? They will living and retiring in country know as having a high standard of living? They will be competing with “FT” are here to hit (earn) and run.. (retired, living a good life in their homeland).

Pink IC/ Blue IC… What’s the difference? Blue ICs can purchase HDBs too (only not new one, btw, majority of the HDB are resale), no baby-bonus, no NS tax relief… What else…..? hmmm.. Ok, no vote in election… Is that all?

> As a 61-year old S’pore Citizen (by birth), I was amongst the first batches doing full-time NS.
WHAT THE HECK did I do NS for?
To protect/defend these so-called FTs?
FT = really Foreign Talent or mostly Foreign Trash?

> Our women folk (grandmother/mother/aunties/wife/sisters/daughters/nieces) should hire a big-time UK Queen’s Counsel to “sue” the PAP for “defaming” them:

— as “baby-machines” [ Last time, press right button STOP AT TWO. Now, press left button HAVE 3 OR MORE KIDS. ]

— as “maids” [ Without the PAP and, of course, million-dollar salaries, "Singapore will sink into NOTHINGNESS and your women will become maids in foreign countries" ]

> A reporter once asked MBT: How to “squeeze” in 5 to 6 million people in Little Red Dot Singapore?
His simplistic reply: Just build flats higher, lor!
How Pathetic And Pathetic (PAP) — a $2m Minister who don’t even know the meaning of the term “Quality of Life” !!!

Our youths are not stupid, they know these are coming… When they graduated and start to work (or struggling to get a job), they will look around to see lots of the “FT” in offices, malls, parks etc. They are young, smart, educated and have voting power… a dangerous combination. Or unless the Government draws up a bill to allow PR to vote too… hehehe…

FTs can squeeze 4 persons into 2 double decker bed in 1 bed room. Can we?

More and more China PRs not taking citizens. Even Thais also not swopping citizenships. Only Rich indonesians and FTs from Burma etc and India/Pakistan.

juz a small comment: the picture for this article should include white collar executive foreigners also lest people conveniently say that these jobs singaporeans dont want to do anyway.

Without the FTs, where does our Gov get their Worker Levy!

How many FTs are here to created Jobs for Singaporean except to push up HDB prices!

Got money buy properties as it is a sure bet because of 6 million populations but remember to look out for exit strategies before 2030yr.
Sure HDB will drop some day!

64) DavidSeeLeongKit on June 22nd, 2009 9.21 pm
“”— as “baby-machines” [ Last time, press right button STOP AT TWO. Now, press left button HAVE 3 OR MORE KIDS. ]“”

ya hor, I also find it strange that last time they never seen this coming.
If only we had not stopped at 2. sigh…..maybe today we no need or see so many foreign Talent here. I mean they nice but why depend on FT if we got our own?

It reminds me, why worry about Malaria and Dengue IF the Mosquitoes were controlled to pre-infestation level?

See where I am drifting?

@66) IMS on June 22nd, 2009 9.33 pm

Can you? If each are earning $3000 per month – Comparison between foreigner and Singaporean :-

1) FT : -
1 HDB room =$400-$700 (divided by 4-8), travelling expenses= $300?, Food = $300? Rest = $??? send back home to buy land and build a big home (FH) in their homeland. For PR – Give up PR and got a lump sump from CPF for retirement.

Objective : 5-10yrs – Objective met. Home, land, business and CPF money to retire.

2) Singaporean :-
Buy HDB (99 years). Servicing Housing loan, exhaust CPF, spend on education for children. Children = Expenses for school transportation, expenses, allowances (kindergarten to university).

Age 45yrs : Children graduate, and working (have their own family). However, parents have little saving… Need to work to drop 65yrs old. No CPF but have a HDB flat (for remainder of HDB tenure)

Last time, people retire and enjoy life at 45 – 55.
Now time, people asked to work longer.
To be fair, they say it makes you less chance senile or more active.
To be fair, having said the above, to enjoy life need not mean have to work (especially work for little if not pittance). And to stay mentally active need not mean slog at fast food restaurants. Lets get this straight and clear once and for all. And I for one does not believe working for low wage will not make elders feel bad in one way or another. Especially when they are working to Service singaporeans and foreigners and anyone. or when they have to clean this or that, sweep this or that thrash.

If foreigners increase even further, and if it lowers wage to certain low level, in the long run , till we reach retirement age, I wonder how many would have to defer their retirement?

But what is the point of complaining? The people still accept right? Not like they ever rejected anything? Well, that what I feel anyway.

I will rather prefer a Singapore with moderate but sustainable GDP growth, with less dependence on foreign trash and exports, happier and less stressed environment, which will be more conducive to bringing up children, and some unemployment insurance so that when we get retrenched these insurance company can give these retrenched workers several months salary at a percentage of last drawn pay to tide over the crisis. As for standard of living, I certainly do think that Singapore with 3 million people will provide higher standard of living than 6 million people as I have mentioned earlier. We will see more flats with 15 people in a room like those rental hostel in Pearl Center and Tiong Bahru. If the PAP don’t re-examine themselves about the foreign trash problem, it will only lead Singapore to chaos, the foreign trash will set up strikes and riots in Singapore in time to come.

I travel a lot as a result of my job and the other day when I was in an mrt train, i felt that I was in another foreign country and not my own cos looking around me there were more foreigners than singaporeans!

I felt alone and an alien in my own country. Is it a good or bad thing. Well time will tell but perhaps many of our ministers wont be around to see the results of this influx of foreign talent and labour. It will be the foreigners who will be voting the PAP government into power cos the government gave them citizenship and this will be the payback to the government and thats the PAP way!

hi Eureka,

////… it will only lead Singapore to chaos, the foreign trash will set up strikes and riots in Singapore in time to come.////

our govt’s unwillingness to enforce the law against them will only embolden them to act in larger numbers.

let the FWs lead to way, i say. :P

We need foreigners because Singaporean has lost basic survival skill.

We needed water and luckily we have Oliva Lam from Ipoh to come and save us.

We lost our top class bride Fann Wong & Lee Jia Wei to foreign bridegroom, what happen to Singaporean men? They all love to wear pink.

Singaporean say the health ministry is best managed, the head was a Malaysian from Penang.

The best Chief Justic so far? CJ Yong… agree? He was born and raised in KL.

Our President was born and raised in Muar, we love Otak Otak and can I say SG is in theory headed by a “Foreigner”?

A Singaporean friend bought a two storey terrace house of 2500 square feet with a small plot of land to plant a few trees and park two cars at about SID$85 K and it is freehold at the Iskander Development in JB.

Many here should be able to afford such an offer which is opened to Singaporean buyers. Give it some thought and plan to consider for your future.

patriot

The Gahmen should compensate the families being fined foe having >2 children. My wife whom family got 4 children was fine a few hundred dollars (A large sum by last time standard) by our then PM Lee KY gahmen. Not only this policy was unfair, it also caused her’s and many families to disqualified for many rebates and “gahmen’ freebies.

Dunno the Chinese saying “Father’s debt to be paid by son” applies in this case? I will think so because then PM Lee KY’s son is now PM Lee SL.

[i]40) Holland C on June 22nd, 2009 2.05 pm Why all the gripes ? Leave if you are not happy. No body in Singapore is indispensable nor irreplaceable. Be he the prime minister or a pauper. The door is always open for you to leave. [/i]

i liked you
ALOT
livin in holland road must be damn cool for you
RIGHT?
you sink song in titanic 3 har?
who you think you are?
just because you LIFT in holland road
entitled
YOU to a permanent stautue of liberty?
you must be dreamin
the holland road district sunray must be radiatin your bloomin bloody mind
or your braincell is infected with minatures mines…………..
people who lived in bukit timah district 9 with a bungalow ownerships also cannot suka suka migrate to australia
you think you are the only person in singapore to qualify for a special green card to any other countries?
READ
all the
FINE prints
before you asked people to migrate……………..

by the way
i do HOLD a british permant residentship
i LEAVED in london for 9 bloomin years
and hold 15 credit cards
with a gold amex with my owned named in it
not a sub card
today?
i hold no cards
only a debit card
i still LIFT in singapoor
not because the pap government is kind to me
i am here
for only 1 reason
i am born in singapore
i would liked to die in singapoor as well
and hoped to be buried in holland road cementry
as though i can afford to be buried there in the 1st place…..
china and chinese girls including cebu pinoys want me to migrate to be a volcano farmer
i says
NO
simply because i ain’t no farmer……
catch the drift?
mr HOLLAND road?

Every Singaporean wants their children to be doctors or lawyers, every children ended up choosing to work in air-con enviroment and have time to spend their money be it cash or credit card.

No Singaporean today would want to spend their 1st 10 years working in a car repair workshop, coffee shop, hair saloon, kitchen, backery etc etc., so if you do not know the A to Z of a trade you won’t be owning the business in the next 20 years of your career and in no time all this small establishment would be owned by foreigners who are willing to spend their 1st 10 years learning the A to Z of the trade and when they do they would need to employ the jobless Singaporean in their 40s and 50s who are willing to take up any job.

#79 chilli crab :
“We needed water and luckily we have Oliva Lam from Ipoh to come and save us.”

From which country is the technology come from?
Do not forget to mention this.

Aren’t we all a Nation of Foreigners?

How many are actually descendents from those who came from the Malay Archipelago? Less than 10% I think, considering even the so-called Malay population has a large number of mixed bloods…………Indian, Arab, Chinese etc.

@48) hitachi on June 22nd, 2009 3.27 pm

Hi hitachi, and author E-Jay

Released figures should be taken with a pitch of salt, as they can be presented differently from time to time. A more “complete” (truthful?) breakdown was given as:

“….The Straits Times, 4 Oct 2008, article “Foreign Bodies”. Currently 4.84 million people in Singapore of which 35% are foreign-born. The latter is classified into 3 groups—new citizens, PRs (478,200 of them) and non-residents (1.2 million). Non-residents are further divided into 2 groups—those on a ‘transient’ basis (construction workers & maids—757,000) & those with regarded potential to make new citizens or PRs (143,000 on employment pass + 85,000 ‘students’). Figures by National Population Secretariat (NPS). …”

Much gripes about NS, so lets put things in perspective:
Thus about 65% are singapore-born, half is female gender, that leaves 32.5% true-blue males.

Minus the young, the very old and the “invalids/undesirables/excluded” + sprinkle of foreign-borns that served, I say less than 20-25% have done NS. So, a minority group — can walkover them in economic calculations.

Modern armies have about 5:1 to 7:1 ratio of support-to-combat troops. If any of your family member is serving as say, an infantryman, he is privileged to be about 3-5% to actually see the enemy’s bullets. Of course then, 1.68m people will be high-tailing out of Spore, or 1.681m (includ. our MPs and their entourages). So yeah, have more babies for Spore.

having done some research on pr application in other countries, i realize that singapore is very very liberal in dishing out pr permits.

most of us have personally come across anecdotes of pr holders confessing that they treat singapore as a spring board for us/oz etc.

the question a truly transparent first class government would do is to answer her citizens’ concerns: what is the turn over rate of these pr holders? it’s no use telling us how many take up pr in a year. we need to know how many have given up their pr or chooose to stay away from singapore in the past 3 years.

unless of course, you argue that there is no need to know how many turncoats there are because these are really economic digits….

@79) chilli crab on June 23rd, 2009 12.14 am

“…We need foreigners because Singaporean has lost basic survival skill… ”
Yes, we need maids to tie our shoelaces. See my posting @21) on who gave us the maid industry.
My old neighbourhood rows of convenience shops had been muscled out by …. NTUC supermarket. Whose fault if our basic skills not even given a chance, huh?

“…We needed water and luckily we have Oliva Lam from Ipoh to come and save us…”
RO tech is nothing new. From first we realised we need self-dependency on water to Oliva Lam, there were thousands of govt sonsored scholars. Too bad they also waited for OL. Luck or *uck, man! (The New Paper, 19 Apr 2009, a survey of 167 scholars showed 1 of 3 not happy with their scholarships)

“…We lost our top class bride Fann Wong & Lee Jia Wei to foreign bridegroom, what happen to Singaporean men? They all love to wear pink…”
Yeah, crabs have no b**** and can’t run fast enough to catch brides. Sour grapes, blame Spore men. BTW, many here prefer foreign brides.

“…Singaporean say the health ministry is best managed, the head was a Malaysian from Penang…”
Wow, best as in many generations still cannot solve to our renowned myopia problem. Said to be using too much computers — we have computers in 1960s & 1970s, meh? Medical costs also best — for the doctors, hospitals & taxman pockets. Always thought whoever heads the HM is a Moron, at least the “M” is correct.

Forgot to mention things like:
1) David Hartanto Widjaja, Asean scholar, stabbed NTU lecturer, trial on-going;
2) Lee Bee Wah, imported MP, mouth deficiency, still in Parliament.
3) Wang Zhijian, PRC FW, blutchered 3 women and injured another girl in Yishun, Sep 2008.
4) Micheal Fay, FT family son, ardent collector of public articles.
5) NSmen = minority class, see posting 85) above.
6) etc…

The root of the population problem is the myopic population policies of the regime. I remember the time when my mum had to go for abortion a few times, as the penalty was severe if a family had more than two children.

Anyway even if we need more manpower in the workforce, there is no necessity to give the foreign workers PR and citizenship so readily. Can just put them on work permit and EP. In countries like UAE even if the foreign worker work a lifetime there he will not be offered citizenship or PR.

The government here has consistenly descriminated its own citizens in favour of foreigners. My biggest worry is by the time Singaporeans realise that they have been screwed big time it will be far too late to redreem our way of life and country!

Let’s face it – any cash-rich developing country will always have to import cheap foreign labour to keep trade, industry and commerce humming along. The oil-rich Gulf states have been doing this for decades – importing cheap labour from the Subcontinent and skilled foreign talent from the West.
That allowed their nationals — who were provided lots of state help in housing education, medical, etc — to live comfortable lives and breed happily. So, there were no problems with ensuring that there would be ample future generations of nationals. But they have remained in the minority – and apparently are quite happy being so, as their needs are well served by imported labour.
Back to Singapore – we have always been told: Work hard and all will be well. The middle income group grew. But over the years, many in this contented group have found that their income from honest work have not kept pace with rising costs of living and expectations of a better quality of life. And as their fortunes fell, many also sank to the barely-surviving group of workers.
Imported foreign labour, eager to work for lower wages, worsened the situation. Foreign labour is needed to do the jobs that Singaporeans don’t want to do or cannot do. But in time, a minimum wage could entice Singaporeans to take up cleaning and construction jobs (In Australia, street cleaners and construction workers earn decent wages)
A look into the future: Singaporeans with roots in the pre-and post independence era will most likely form a minority of the population. The majority will comprise a floating mix of new citizens, PRs and foreign workers (those with talent and those at the bottom of the heap).
This floating mix will be allowed by the authorities as long as the economy can be sustained and the future generation fund (that in Temasek and GIC) is not depleted through investments that go awry.
From among this floating mix, some will marry Singaporeans and take them away to more affordable retirement homes in China, or the Philippines, or Batam. Some will sink roots and become the true-blue Singaporeans that we are wont to describe as those who have served national service, been here for decades, truly love the country for a variety of reasons, etc etc. Some will move on to the US or Canada, or Australia.
But the numbers that make up this floating mix can be regulated – they can go up, or they can go down. It all depends on the need.
My point: The management (for want of a better word) of Singapore society can only come about with a maturing of the political process. This would encompass the give-and-take inherent of a genuine democratic political process, and the evolvement of a strong opposition, to ensure fair and transparent government and an equitable distribution of wealth.
There is hope – maturing of societies takes many years, if not decades, to come about. Sadly, many of us will not be around to see it happen.

On keeping billions dollars reserves for future generations,

Look at number of Singapore Citizens and birth rate now.

3 to 3.5 millions and 1.29.

1.29 is way below replacement level.

The $200 billions will spend on future new citizens in future like 2020.

No wonder foreigners from third countries want to come here.

Because Singaporeans are saving for them to spend.

How many of the reserves will benefits the real children of Singapore if billions dollars reserves is kept for a future that never arrives given that original Singapore Citizens make up less and less of total population?

#88,

i think we are already on the way there….

aiyoyo

so many FTs will hdb price go up again?

how do commoners tahun the price skyrocketed?

cant understand the logic again…

aiyoyo

Can HDB pls roll out from BTO projects ? I simply don’t understand all the BTO projects are over-subscribed by at least 5 to above 10 times and HDB is really doing a lousy job in meeting the market demand.

Want us Singaporeans to have babies ? Even turtles or birds need to have their own nest to lay eggs. If we are encountering such a hard time trying to get affordable and reasonable housing of our own, where do we have the mood to procreate ???

Management of HDB, pls do your due diligence to bring back affordable housing to true Singaporeans, we will make sure we will lay more eggs to meet your population target.

Yesterday, I went to the bus interchange to top up my card, and I was served by a China lady.

I got on the bus, and it was driven by a China guy.

I went to buy chicken rice for lunch, and it was served by another China man.

I called up Zirca (doing some marketing work), and I was attended by a China lady who 1) could not speak proper English 2) was quick to tell me to email to Zirca, instead of trying to clarify my queries over the phone.

#94) Regnis on June 23rd, 2009 2.10 pm

Regnis, don’t you realise? These are foreign talents ! Pls respect their TALENTS as we Singaporeans are known to not able to serve chicken rice, drive buses or even pick up calls ^_^

#94

I can add some more. Go to Giant, all china women cashiers, fill up petrol, china women also, cleaners at Changi, China guys (no wonder drop to no 3) Welcome to Chinapore.

40) Holland C on June 22nd, 2009 2.05 pm Why all the gripes ? Leave if you are not happy. No body in Singapore is indispensable nor irreplaceable.

Ah! Mr Holland C, if only we could all leave. The irony is that the Govt knows whom to please, and whom to ignore. Don’t you realise that those who could really leave are given the best treatment to discourage them from making such decisions, while those who are not marketable overseas are just offered …err..medical treatment in JB or perhaps euthanasia? Those who gripe are the heartlanders who have nowhere else to go. Those who have the choice to leave always tell you that the grass is not greener over the other side. Its true for them, because the Govt had ensured that it is so.

Locals or foreign immigrants, we are all subjected to this differentiated class treatment. Patricians vs plebians.

#93,

the million dollars minister are paid so much and it is natural for him to cap the pricing as close private properties so that HDB can reaps millions or maybe billions of dollar profits and is still the cheaper flats to purchase.

gets the drift??

I work in a high-end manufacturing MNC. We have serious problems finding Singaporeans to be the operators and technicians. As such we have to hire mainly Malaysian and PRC operators, and technicians from Myanmar, Malaysia, PRC and India. The locals mostly do not want to work in shift, work in cleanrooms, burn their weekends etc. We can find a handful of Singaporeans willing to work hard and sweat it out, but not many. There are no shortage of engineers, but the locals are often outperformed by the immigrants.

So where are the Singaporeans? Are they all holding glitzy jobs in town where they can dress smartly and go home at 5pm? Or they are all taxi drivers, army regulars and civil servants? I really don’t know….very puzzling.

So if we block the foreigners from coming in, what should we do? Close down the MNCs? What about the toilet cleaners? Stall helpers? Can we find enough Singaporeans to do these jobs? Will there be a property glut if there aren’t enough buyers?

Its not so simple…..

I work in Wafer Fab Before and it is not true Singaporean don’t want to work in cleanroom but employers don’t want to employed singaporean because it is not cost effective! They rather meet all quota for foreigners than employed singaporean.

Better ship all the fabs to China or Taiwan or Korea caused in futture the 13 Fabs here are not cost effective! Taiwan is setting up 12 inch in China!
Dont tallk abt Test Assembly, they will be in China 1 day!

9) I Love Singapore on June 22nd, 2009 8.20 am

I was at Kopitaim in IMM yesterday, want to order a dessert at the drink/dessert stall. The lady at the counter was busy cutting mangos into cubes, so I called out to her “hello”. She just said “wait” (in chinese, with a china chinese accent), so I waited… Meanwhile a queue starts building up, and the lady continues with her task of cutting the mangos….. Some kind of service, right.. I should think that you would serve the customers first before going back to doing the “back-stage” task..

We were finally served by another lady (also from china)..

We KNOW, we cannot change it. We have proven to ourselves.
Lets give up now and not waste time and energy.
Wait another 20 years for new immigrants to give it a shot.
Next better player.
The End.

99) Pessimist on June 23rd, 2009 3.57 pm

For FTs, no family here, so no social commitment. Rent a flat near workplace, and share with a few.. After work, just stay back and enjoy the aircon, internet, etc.. rather than go back to rental flat and stare at blank walls. So overtime, shift-work not a problem.

For true-blue singaporeans, if you are married and have children, I don’t think you want to burn weekends.. What’s the point of having family and children if you aren’t going to spend time with them..Likewise for shift work, go to work when children are sleeping, sleeping while they go to school, etc..

How to have more kids when Gaman build smaller and smaller HDB? When Gaman give $300 childcare subside but childcare center up charges from $500 to $900?

So import FT and is certainly cheaper, can save on childcare subside, save on primary to higher education subsidy.

I can’t imagine growing old and telling my descendants to marry original true-blue Singaporean so as to keep our bloodlines pure. lol.

This problem was coming sooner or later when I realised there’s a surge in older men marrying Vietnamese wives. You’ll notice an increase in mixed Vietnamese kids in schools. In a few more years time, the problem will worsen.

Is there a need for so many new immigrants?

I notice an increase in society problems. FTs fighting with FTs. Shouldn’t they just keep it at a limit? Sheesh….

I do agree with 102) lim on difference between FT and Locals. Wait till FT have their family here. The ball game will be different.

We need to strike a balance lifestyle between work and family inorder to live fruitful lives as always mention by the government but seldom put in place. Hense, those working in the MNC do take look again and see what kind of life do you want. As for FT or PR, they come and they can go at any time they want. They do not have their roots deeply rooted here like us. So, just treat them like passbyer. Make them work till they drop. Make sure that they know earning money here is not so easy from us.

On one hand, they tell you that you are so damn lucky to be Singaporean, as if Singapore is an exclusive club. On the other, they say you have no choice, for survival you have to welcome any foreigner. Sounds very much a con job to me.

Vote opposition, any opposition, send in the clowns, before it is too late! When the ground is neutral, or the playing field is levelled, then there is hope of building Singapore, really building, not media hype thru rankings. And claim Spore back from a certain group of people, to belong to all descendents of earlier settlers.

The clowns would be better than the current group of people lording over heartlanders. I cannot see anything clever that these ‘lords’ do, can you? I mean for the better lives of Sporeans. All they ever do is one con job after another.

yea……

#106,

totally agree with you.

i see the possilibity of singapoe becoming Chinapore. like what most said here, every where you go, you hear and see them particularly the chinese.

the ironic is this…..they seem to gather in one community like their own back in their village. if you notice carefully, pretty soon most hawker centre maybe even foodcourts will eventully be occupied by them as their platoon of community members are mainly from same villages. this will very soon too follow up with them in school.

100) lim on June 23rd, 2009 4.20 pm

Learn and adapt to the different cultural mores (or less) and when the time is ripe, throw it back to those who so love the taste of this cultural salad.

Sigh…

Comparing foreign talents/workers with locals are like comparing apple and orange; and the stories of jobs that doesn’t wants to take up by locals are a “FALLACY”.

Why would I say that?

1. Foreigner are here to make money like everyone of us.
Plainly because the foreign workers from Malaysia/China/India are here to fill the vacancies of lower end jobs does not necessary translate that they are better. This is because the fundamental motivation to work here and the concept on value of money is simply different.

Every dollar they saved will translate to higher monetary value when they return to their homeland. That’s call different in standard of living between countries.

2. Foreign Talents are here to seek “opportunities”
For most “higher value” Foreign Talents, I believe the primary motivations are the same as those of FW. These FT are given “career” opportunites, better “pay” and “perks” for them to come to singapore. Instead of being treated as a “mediocre” in their countries, they are treated as “elites”. If you are a FT, would you stay on to be continued to be treated as an “elite” or you return to your homeland and be treated like a mediocre.

3. Most Foreigners are able to take a bigger risk.
Most FW comes alone; leaving their families and friends in search for a better future (there are exceptions and there always will be – I am taking a general view), and hence, they are more “determined” to succeed than average people. The cost of failure enables them to take a “bigger” risk profile.

4. Foreigner Talent that stays.
For FT, when they are more established; i.e. they are given “elite” status and “elite” pay, singapore becomes their dreamland. I don’t see any logical reason anyone would leave a dreamland and stay in trash unless he’s a lunatic.

For #99 pessimist, your perceptions is erroreous. You have made the assumption that you have provided the sufficient criteria to attract the right candidates and the locals refused to take up the job.

In reality, you failed to see that most younger singaporeans aspire to “climb” to higher heights or greener pastures. Moreover, most younger singaporean are “better” educated. To compound the problem further, the “demand” for operators and technican far outweighed the “supply” pool. Singapore is no longer an a “ideal” place for manufacturing environment due to our higher cost in operating in this arena. Put it simply, your company cannot “reward” them enough to take up the job when there are “better” pay jobs out there.

In summary, the perceptions of jobs that local doesn’t want to take up is a FALLACY. There are only jobs that can provide continual sustenance
of one needs and jobs that doesn’t. There is such things as “no job that no one wants to take up”. Otherwise, why PAP keeps paying their MPs millions of dollars to keep them there.

It’s plainly a “supply” and “demand” theory. The FW are “brought” in to cover jobs where there is a “shortage” of supply. The FT are “brought” in to bring “economic” success. The only question is how “talented” are these “FT”.

Corrections: There is no such things as “no job that no locals wants to take up”.

106) Save Singapore on June 23rd, 2009 5.09 pm

Yes, I too agree that we need to have more oppositions in parliament, (My wife and I were among the 33% in AMK grc in the 2006 GE). Singapore will be much better off when we have a balance in power, if one party doesn’t perform, we can have an alternative, otherwise, we will have this one party implementing all sorts of policies that are “good” for us.

So much talk about voting for a new party into the government but when times come. Everyone change your mind because PAP start giving out goodies too hard not to accept. So, brothers and sisters out there. Remember what have all of you mention here and do it rifght not just for ourselves but for our future generation.

@110) Dumb and dumber on June 23rd, 2009 6.22 pm

I disagree with the following statement:

“…Put it simply, your company cannot “reward” them enough to take up the job when there are “better” pay jobs out there….”

In reality, it should be: “…your company DO NOT WANT TO “reward” them…”. Your company locks in $xxx for a worker, take it or leave, MNCs being MINDFUL that there is no minimum wage criteria in Spore. Think, MNCs tell EDB that Spore costs are going up, so how to attract them here? EDB tell them: U come, we guarantee $xxx “someone” will do job…. (hint; this is not your normal demand and supply issue).

There are university professors in UK that switched over to plumber jobs because the latter pays better (hint: this is normal demand and supply issue). U think ang moks stupid, don’t want to sit in an air-con office, CBL all day, don’t mind low pay? London is expensive, cannot survive on U job…. but wait… Singapore is now…..10th most expensive city in world, and London….let seeeee…. is 27th. We have surpassed our ex-colonial masters!

Clarification @114)

“…Your company…” refers to @99) Pessimist on June 23rd, 2009 3.57 pm

110) Dumb and dumber on June 23rd, 2009 6.22 pm “In reality, you failed to see that most younger singaporeans aspire to “climb” to higher heights or greener pastures. Moreover, most younger singaporean are “better” educated. To compound the problem further, the “demand” for operators and technican far outweighed the “supply” pool. Singapore is no longer an a “ideal” place for manufacturing environment due to our higher cost in operating in this arena. Put it simply, your company cannot “reward” them enough to take up the job when there are “better” pay jobs out there.”

I am aware that Singaporeans aspire to climb to greater heights. My point is, can a poly diploma help one aspire to such heights and disdain technician (does Engrg Associate sound better) jobs? Is it such a job mismatch? So there are many wonderful, well-paying jobs in Singapore that these grads can pick and choose? Since when? Aren’t there so many people in TOC complaining that there are not enough jobs? Or people would rather be jobless than to work at something below their aspirations? Are their aspirations realistic for a place like Singapore? The fact is that Singapore is unable to attract enough jobs of the kind that young Singaporeans aspire to, i.e. high-paying, fun, 9-5 type of jobs that one can only find in Europe, US or Australia. So what is Singapore ‘Ideal’ for? Can you convince this pessimist that Singapore is a treasure-island full of attractive jobs which ALL these young grads can find fulfillment? By the way, the Govt has enlarged the intakes of polys and unis so drastically that the overall quality of their grads have actually dropped quite noticeably? So much for ‘better educated’. I understand the fallacy you’re talking about. I do not think it applies in the above case. If one aspires towards a better life, one should emigrate. Singapore cannot offer that to the majority of us. The country has already passed its prime. Its better to become a foreign talent in another country. Just like those FT who want to come here, because they too aspire towards something which their country cannot offer them.

“So if we block the foreigners from coming in, what should we do? Close down the MNCs? What about the toilet cleaners? Stall helpers? Can we find enough Singaporeans to do these jobs?”

And may I know why the MNCs are still here (those that are still here) when they can easily relocate to many places who have cost advantages in a lot of areas – human, materials, etc.

We (more so for lay people as those higher up in the value chain know how to design the system to ensure their well beings) have already paid a heavy price in making this country very stable with all the right infrastructures to ‘equilibrate’ the overall cost of doing business here. What more do you want ?

“Will there be a property glut if there aren’t enough buyers?”

So ? that it will inflate your overall cost of living (over your lifetime) with property costs becoming an unbearable high cost component of your monthly overhead.

#114 Last lines “Singapore is now…..10th most expensive city in world, and London….let seeeee…. is 27th. We have surpassed our ex-colonial masters!”

When I last returned to Spore 2 years ago, I felt that I was spending in Sterling Pounds but luckily I was earning Sterling Pounds and according to London’s middle income rate (after tax).

UK citizens in general do what their interest lies, not just for the money. My husband is a U lecturer and yes, it is possible that he might be earning less than a plumber but he will never trade his passion for studying Fluid Mechanics and likes what he is doing esp the research aspect of his work. So plumbing is a no no for him because we already enjoy a very good life with what we have. Our children receive very good free education plus allowances and medical cover by the Govt. We live in a freehold property with garden and take a 2-week holiday each year. Why do we have to go for the money and lose the joy of living?

“The fact is that Singapore is unable to attract enough jobs of the kind that young Singaporeans aspire to, i.e. high-paying, fun, 9-5 type of jobs that one can only find in Europe, US or Australia. So what is Singapore ‘Ideal’ for? Can you convince this pessimist that Singapore is a treasure-island full of attractive jobs which ALL these young grads can find fulfillment?”

if this is so, why the need to target a high population hence logically imposing more on the need to have even more jobs to sustain such population while costs of living are going up (both from external uncontrollable imports and internally controllable fiscal measures).

It is not only an Insult to me but to my NTU, NUS degree by getting a pay of less than $1800 as compared to an S pass holder!

S pass can be degree or diploma! That why so many foreigners!

Why dont be a scholar at less an MP of $14,000

To #89 GABRIEL on June 23rd, 2009 12.38 pm
Let’s face it – any cash-rich developing country will always have to import cheap foreign labour to keep trade, industry and commerce humming along. …
That allowed their nationals — who were provided lots of state help in housing education, medical, etc — to live comfortable lives and breed happily.

What do the local born Singapore citizens get? I see more liabilities than help from the dear PAP govt despite their 50 years of experience. E.g. NS for males. Expensive public housing with limited lease. No social welfare. Expensive independent schools mainly for the elites and well-connected. Constant drive towards computerisation and online work at schools driving up the cost of education and disadvantaging children from low income families. Means testing for hospitalisation.

Frankly, I would rather be a citizen of Gulf states that you mentioned, but unfortunately they do not whore their citizenship like the PAP government.

120) TrueBlood Singaporean

Dear TrueBlood Singaporean,

don’t you know that our Govt. has granted S-Pass to alot of FT from University of Mediocrity all over the third world countries ? Why bother to study so hard in local Uni to get just $1,800 ?

I suggest you get a doctorate from any of our neighbouring countries and apply for an S-Pass too. At least you will be coined as a FOREIGN TALENT and get high pay too, rather than being discriminated as a spoilt & demanding Singaporean who refused to work for miserable $1,800 , eh somemore with just a bachelor degree from NUS/NTU ?

Opps, are you still a bachelor? There are tonnes FT with Masters & Doctorates out there from the prestigious University of Mediocrity…

Walk 50 years, U-turn, go backwards 50 years.
For those who get the chance to vote in the next election, please cast your vote wisely.

#106) Save Singapore
#107) mike
#112) lim
#113) Yang
#65) Law
‘Complain as much as you like. The government does not consider your opinion …………, they are not elected to make popular decisions and you all have gave them the mandate so stop complaining. Even next election, i foresee the present party will beat the oppostion HANDS DOWN.’
…………………………………………………….

Even if everyone who read TOC articles were to vote for the opposition, the PAP will still win because the readers here constitute less than 1% of the electorate. Again, 82 seats for them and 2 for the opposition.

Don’t just sit down there beside the keyboard and wait to cast your votes. You may not even get the chance to vote because of walkovers. If you believe in true democracy, DO somethings.

I find it funny that someone mentioned protecting the “bloodline” of singaporeans.

What is the “bloodline” of singaporeans? if one were to trace bloodline 3-5 generations up, most of us will be considered foreigners.

Identity of singaporean does not come from blood lineage,
but from shared experience e.g. stressful education system, NS, Singlish, food, etc. That means it is an open membership. If you have been here long enough, done all the things we have done, experience the same things we have experience, you become Singaporean. That is why we don’t really see people like Olivia Lum etc. as foreigners even though they are born elsewhere.

Who is more singaporean? A-born-in-singapore but live in US since 3years old or a-born-in-msia kid who cross the causeway everyday and studies in Singapore.

Having said that, it also means the problem of new citizens, identity and integration is only a short-term problem. Once they are here long enough, have kids, (and their kids have to serve NS), they have become “Singaporean” by virtue of experience. For these people, it is more like “work in progress”.

Of course, the tricky part is how do we separate those who genuinely want to stay from those who are using SG as a springboard? It is all intention, and that is hard to separate.

The easy way out is just to look at place of birth.

Let Face it! Singapore is just a hotel!

Why waste 2.5 years to protect it! Just waste of time!

Hi;

Let me try to define Singaporean, or to be more precise, Singapore Citizen.

Before Singapores’ Indepedence, inhabitants in this tiny dot were British Subjects.

And before the British gave Independence to Singapore, those British Subjects were offered the Choice to remain British Subjects, supposedly to settle in Britain or in any of its’ colonies, of which there were many.

patriot

Checkout this study done on How To Reverse The Trend in Declining Birth Rates.

http://www.cesifo-group.de/portal/page/portal/ifoContent/N/neucesifo/CONFERENCES/SC_CONF_2008/Fertility%20and%20Public%20Policy/Andersson_fpp08.pdf

[...] [...]

@118) Working & living in UK on June 23rd, 2009 8.00 pm

Envy your lifestyle. Good choice – interest over money, if the society is fair and open & paying yr children education & people get to vote/boot out their govt, and house is secure over yr head…. and …. and …..

However, hate to say, but do yr hubbie do mandatory 2.5 yrs in the British Army & another 15 yrs in the Territorial Army? If do, be very grateful that at least he is doing it in a PROFESSIONAL army. (Aside: Wonder if they have White Horses in their Army? Prince Charles? ha, ha. Let’s see LHY do a heli job in a shooting war.)

they say the increase of “citizens and PRs” are due to foreigners gaining citizenship and getting PR status :S

in actual fact they already more den 25%

I am aware that Singaporeans aspire to climb to greater heights. My point is, can a poly diploma help one aspire to such heights and disdain technician (does Engrg Associate sound better) jobs?
-> Why not, they go further studies for those that can afford. Furthermore, they can take a bank loan. I graduate from SP 15 years ago and I now hold a master degree.

Is it such a job mismatch?
-> I still believe it’s a supply and demand issue. There simply isn’t sufficient supply for “lower” end job (which equates to Like #120 TrueBlood Singaporean has stated, it’s an insult to him. I believe most graduate rather to be management trainee than technician or operator.

Since when? Aren’t there so many people in TOC complaining that there are not enough jobs?
-> My observation is that graduates complains there aren’t job that fits their “aspiration” and “pay” expectation and “older” experienced people are complaining about job “discrimination” and “low” pay. There are “jobs” out there definitely, but it’s really what “type” of job is available and at what rate they’re paying. Like #114 theforgottongeneration has stated, the people are being “undercut” by company when you don’t have a “minimum” wage scheme and Singapore lacks an effective worker “UNION” to protect the rights of workers in general.

Or people would rather be jobless than to work at something below their aspirations?
-> I believe such people exists; but that’s a minority which is not sufficent to even “fill” up the demand. The issue is really the “shortage” of supply for “blue” collar job because Singapore tries to “keep” the labour cost for “blue” collar low – really low.

Are their aspirations realistic for a place like Singapore?
-> That’s human nature to dream for the better. To maintain a balance is the difficult one. To give up hope, and you will see people jumping out of the window.

The fact is that Singapore is unable to attract enough jobs of the kind that young Singaporeans aspire to, i.e. high-paying, fun, 9-5 type of jobs that one can only find in Europe, US or Australia. So what is Singapore ‘Ideal’ for?
-> Sadly, for the “Elites” of course. If you are “rich”, you can lord over others. You got “organ transplant” act where you now can harvest organs from the “desperate”, cheap labour to increase the company’s margin and competitiveness, little protection for employees from oppression from superior (e.g. companies can retrench you without compensating you a single cent); the list just goes on and on.

Furthermore, everything in singapore is now “measured” in the “monetary” value, and that’s the only thing most people “cares” about. Like many on TOC has cautioned. This is a “path” of “no” return and we are already “halfway” there in my opinion. But rest assured, life has a way to correct itself like the stock market. Continue to blow a “bubble” and it will “burst” eventually.

Can you convince this pessimist that Singapore is a treasure-island full of attractive jobs which ALL these young grads can find fulfillment?
-> ALL is a “big” word. Singapore’s most attractive jobs is to be part of the “elite” system. Unfortunately, it’s scarce and only guaranteed for the priviledged “few”.

Nonetheless, singapore have a lot of “attractive” jobs, however, they have to “compete” with the FT (i.e. to compete with the whole world as singapore’s policy for FT is really not that stringent). It’s a double-edged sword and in my opinion, few can survive and emerge as the top. Most stay in the “middle” and become the sandwiched layer between the rich and the really poor.

By the way, the Govt has enlarged the intakes of polys and unis so drastically that the overall quality of their grads have actually dropped quite noticeably?
-> One fundamental issue, Singapore’s birth rate is dropping = supply pool is shrinking. And you have stated that the graduates quality has dropped. Doesn’t that equates to further “supply” issue for “quality” candidates?

So much for ‘better educated’. I understand the fallacy you’re talking about. I do not think it applies in the above case.
-> At least we agree that the problem today is not the job itself.

If one aspires towards a better life, one should emigrate. Singapore cannot offer that to the majority of us. The country has already passed its prime. Its better to become a foreign talent in another country. Just like those FT who want to come here, because they too aspire towards something which their country cannot offer them.
-> If only most of them are able to do so. Sadly, most cannot leave for one reason or another.

Anyway, we have a lot of problems “compounded” over the years of “social and political” apathy which landed Singapore in today’s “mess”. In short, we “trust” blindly and we “blame” blindly when the reality is that Singapore’s “fate” lies in Singaporean’s hand and Singaporean has “chosen” poorly for the past decade.

“Identity of singaporean does not come from blood lineage,
but from shared experience e.g. stressful education system, NS, Singlish, food, etc. That means it is an open membership. If you have been here long enough, done all the things we have done, experience the same things we have experience, you become Singaporean.”

well said. very qualitative type of criteria. you just know it when it is there. it takes a lot of years for the “singapore way” of doing things to be internalised and manifested naturally in their everyday behaviours.

It is more challenging for common people who have to face more day-to-day cultural friction in a ‘competitive’ way (work, communication and social behaviour wise) while the social space is getting ‘tighter’ when those supermen are making decision in their ‘cosy’ ivory tower.

After reading all the 133 comments, I see that there is no Solution except 1:

Wait for the passing……

rebut me if i wrong.

Solutions is to get Rich Foreign Talents like Steve Job, Bill Gates, Samsung Lee to invest and create Meaningfull Jobs for local PMETS! Warren Buffet or George Soro to help Temesak!
Not those Cheap FTs just to made the number to 6 millions!

Provide Seed Fund for local Business to thrive and reduce Business Failure Risk like Bankrupcy Law ! In Taiwan, 1 out of 7 are Businessman!
Who founded Yahoo, Youtube, VIA all Taiwanese and not a Single Singaporean!

#135,

hey, dont forget we have sim, creative technology guy. but he make it in USA before being recognised by gahmen here.

we have long way to go man.

#132,
“older” experienced people are complaining about job “discrimination” and “low” pay.

what caused this as a result? mostly is the policies of taxes that raise the cost of living and expenses and employers have no choice but to turn cheap labour. yes, they are ‘job’, but not real job which services base mostly.

real jobs is only can be created through entreprenuership like what #135 said which in turns resulting in recruiting assistance across the board. taiwan nowaday is amazing. they have now created world best magicians. this is real a big surprise to me. can we match them? or they are ‘right’ to say that we are nothing but just ‘pisai’?

135) TrueBlood Singaporean on June 24th, 2009 1.18 pm

yup, Singaporeans are USERS of technology. They are not as much CREATORS of founders of technology.

Its at best a trading place. buy-sell what others created.

rebut me if u think i am wrong.

134) Upsize the Downsize ? on June 24th, 2009 1.03 pm

Lets be honest to ourselves,
though many qualify to challenge them,
we know deep down inside,
none if not only a few dare to offer ‘them’ a challenge.
Thus, status quo will remain or continue to be changed by ‘them’ only.

my view.

Well that is why singaporeans are unique when i compare them with the rest of the world.

Go to this page and see how singapore stands in the world immigration:

http://www.sasi.group.shef.ac.uk/worldmapper/display.php?selected=17

Singapore is huge !!!

Talk abt Creative Sim, he is already history and hope he can be like Steve Jobs.
Rebirth, re-innovate, regain his lost lands. Deserve Our Respect from Ngee Ann!

Talk abt Ho Ching, what a disspointment from NUS and deserve a labour award! Use tax payers money and create stupid uncompetitive enterprises! Look at Micropolies and Chartered Semiconductor!
Need not answer to Singaporean except father-in-law!

We need more Sims than Ho Ching!

All these comments about foreigners being more hungrier than locals and can outperform them should be taken in the correct perspective. These foreigners have borrowed money from relatives/loan sharks, etc to come here and work. Even if you ask them to work 18 hours shifts, no weekend offs and pay them low wages also they will accept. It a Hobson’s Choice for them. Furthermore, they earn in S$ which is much higher than the cost of living at home. Try earning a local degree and paying the instalments on yr so-called own HDB flat and then these FTs will realise that how under paid they are. My ex-colleague is a PR who does not want to give up his passport as he gets more being a PR as he can get subsidised JTC rental flat, a scholarship from SMU (as I found out later that was given to him coz no local applied but when I applied, I was told that I was over 30 and he was 29 at the time) and can get priority schooling for his kids. So it begs the question, why are FTs treated better than locals like me who have to do NS and then compete on the same level as them? Singaporeans have a right to demand for more given the hardwork and sacrifies they have given to this country.

143) anakin on June 24th, 2009 4.05 pm ,

you are one of many encountered same issue. wonder if gahmen really know or chose not to know about it.

#142,

ya man, you are damn rite.

141) Prata on June 24th, 2009 2.33 pm

What does those colors in the map indicate? sg is in yellow region?

130) theforgottongeneration

“However, hate to say, but do yr hubbie do mandatory 2.5 yrs in the British Army & another 15 yrs in the Territorial Army? If do, be very grateful that at least he is doing it in a PROFESSIONAL army. (Aside: Wonder if they have White Horses in their Army? Prince Charles? ha, ha. Let’s see LHY do a heli job in a shooting war.)”

NO, there is NO such thing as ‘mandatory’ here and so there is no NS like in Spore. Never heard of the 15 yrs Terrrtiorial Army thing either. Those who join the army are those who have the passion to defend the country and to fight. There seems to be no shortage of bright young men & women wanting to join the army and with pride.

Talking of “White horses”, Prince Harry (younger son of Diana) wanted so much to fight in the frontline that he ’sneaked’ in with the rest without being noticed by the media. It was after 2 weeks there that it was exposed and he had to come back. Then after a while, he managed to get there again! The reason that he was not allowed was because he would endanger all his team mates’ lives. I buy the reason because he is a priceless catch if kidnapped. Heard of Sandhurst Military Academy? It is prestigious for British men to be associated to it. The Royal family and Prince Harry himself was proud to be accepted into Sandhurst. Am not sure of Prince William, I think he is training to be Heli pilot or something like that, after graduating from St Andrews University with degree in arts History.

Back to the topic, it is now more difficult to migrate to UK because they adopted the point system, awarding points according to specialisation and qualification, unless doing business with a large sum of money. And also migrants need to pass the ‘Life in UK’ test conducted in the English language. In the past, you need to have worked here for 4 years and you can apply for citizenship.

The open door foreign trash policy is slowly but surely destroying Singapore and our national identity unless the PAP re-examine its policies and make changes so that only foreign trash with post secondary qualifications can come to Singapore. The large numbers of foreign trash is competing with Singaporeans for limited jobs, houses, healthcare, transport and education services. This will drive down the wages of the low skilled, low end jobs, increase the price of the HDB flats, and overcrowding of buses, MRTs, shopping centres and other public places.

Many private education institutions are dependent on the fee paid by foreign trash for profits, but these private institution are degree mills, they take in students who are barely conversant in English. There are also many poor village girls that come here as students, but also work as prostitutes. In Gayland, you can find PRC and Filipino foreign sex talent looking to prey on those gullible perverted men. There are also many Bangla and Keling labourers and S Pass Holders that are looking for women to fuck too. Even in our hosuing estate, it used to be very clean in the early 1990s but now you can see litter on the corridor and void deck. The recycling bin near my house also kena burnt. It used to be always overflwing with trash.

The foreign trash bring in a different kind of culture that they learned in their own school system and national education. Many of these trash that comes from third world countries bring their dirty and ulgy habit with them, throwing food wrappers, drink bags, cigarettes all over the place, spitting, talk loudly in their own tongues, bath once in a few days, change cloths once in a week, use tissue a few times before throwing away and play loud music. These kind of habits were used to be frowned upon by the PAP but now we can see these kind of bad behavior everywhere. They are also not as docile as ball-less Singaporeans, they know how to fight for their rights by protesting in front of MOM for their unfair wages. Some foreign trash also lodge complain against their employers only after 1 month of missed payment of wages and then they return back to Singapore to find a higher paying job. There are also Burmese and Iranian student who who protest against their own government. These foreign trash could be a potent force to overrun the PAP.

#145) anakin
‘………….why are FTs treated better than locals like me who have to do NS and then compete on the same level as them?…………………..’
…………………………………………………..

Because LKY knows they have better brains than you. Very Simple.

After 44 years of independence, our identity crisis continues. We are an island nation. Our history books and newspaper continues to preach propaganda. Our national security policy is based on perceived and not real threats. Our population is being artificially engineered. Our education system is designed to create an elitist society.

In the end, what is there left to defend? Our HDB flats? Our strong currency? Our efficient transport? Our ISA? Our airport? Our one-party rule?

Maybe, we should just consider joining back Malaysia.

@151) Edward on June 24th, 2009 11.10 pm

So, we do have some that prefers intelligent psychopaths. See my posting @88). Found my favorite:

6) Kwong Kok Hing, Malaysian, Asean scholar at NUS, pushed girlfriend into path of MRT train at Clementi station. Can’t handled been rejected. Sept 2006.

#145) anakin, Imagine giving him a loaded rifle if in NS?!! Or he is in charge of an MG (machine gun). Rambo time…

@149) Working & living in UK on June 24th, 2009 5.23 pm

TA is civilans turning soldiers for days/weeks each year — something like our Reservist. Yes, the Brits returned to it with pride. Prince Andrew (bro. of Pr. Charles) did heli in the Falklands; same concern about high priority target but mummy chewed the “little wise men”, and off goes her son to war! Prince Harry first appeared as Troop leader of Schmitars, meaning recon, meaning classy job but definitely very dangerous. So no-no for Iraq but reappeared as an FAC for Afghanistan — classy, precious, not so dangerous job — just right for a Prince. Compared to our White Horses, some can’t find their way out of jungle without pee-pee in their pants (oh, yeah, Tiger Balm in hand also), and someone holding their hands. Meritocratic society indeed!

Like said, back to subject. Years back, one FT told me that when he graduated in Canada, 3-4 EDB officers were at the graduation ceremony interviewing. Yes, we have also surpassed UK in being easy access for “talents”, no experience required. Wonder if that is happening at your husband’s Univ.

But we learned “the stiff upper lip” from the Brits. Those “mistakes” FT/FWs mentioned in 153) and 88), we sometimes re-enact their deeds in our “Crime Watch” TV series — and Voila! — they do help generate economic value! Good day to you, M’dm.

@135) to 142)

Guys, my take is that Singapore society has not “grown” naturally, meaning not just the Stop-at-2, Don’t-Stop-at-2 birth control policies.

Over the years, the cream of our population has been siphoned off as govt scholars. This is not to degrade the rest of the people. But this practise directly leave us with a lack of enterprenuers, private inventors, people that may succeed in a home-grown SME, people with brains and a die-die attitude, etc. The fact is, our esteemed A-team has been a let-down — like #140) Neuralitic Psychosis said, we are more adopters of tech than innovators. The top finanical honchos in TH are blowing billions of our cash away. Getting more FTs in for research etc. is really a waste (and a strain to us) because if the top mgt can’t squeeze something out of our local top brains, what make them think the FTs will be more motivated? Like the MSK saga, using very good soldiers (Gurkhas) as guards, yet a “bai-ka” can escape. WHERE is the fault?

Most of the B-team that had managed to succeed below the A-team had left us, or are planning to. Sure, the gahmen is now hoping that some of these can provide bridges to their newly adopted countries. No mind their prima donnas A-team are mainly sitting behind an air-con desk, CBL.

So, the focus now seem to be on the $800-$1200 jobs, the C-team, so to speak. First World and we are emboiled at C-level? Is this what we get for $1m paid ministers?

Sure, there are calls that most of us are whiners (D-team?). I believe these accusers are A-teamers sucking up to justify their lack of real contribution to the nation. Again, not to demean anyone, but I am sure most in this forum are really looking out for someone that can break the vicious cycle of mismanagement and bring us to a prime again. Sure wish we had an Obama — cheaper and better.

With regards to the increasing no of foreign professional working here, I do agree that the govt tend to increase the population at too fast a pace. Mayb they also worried that many locals have already migrated to other countries. There is a report stating that 180000 local either working or staying in other countries.

HK to introduce minimum wage
http://business.asiaone.com/Business/News/Office/Story/A1Story20090625-150742.html

Will this happen here?

here?

“maximum wage for the few, adequate (quite subjective lah) wage for the middle & as-long-as-got (any amount of) money at the bottom dun be choosey…”

156) Small Time Businessman on June 25th, 2009 12.49 pm
” HK to introduce minimum wage”

Oh no!!! NO!!!!

I am an employer, luckily no min wage in singapore ! yeah!!! pheeeewww!!

150) Eureka on June 24th, 2009 5.59 pm ,

a reality threat in future. i am very concern and worrisome about this for our kids generation in future.

why are FTs treated better than locals like me who have to do NS and then compete on the same level as them? Because LKY knows they have better brains than you.

now this sounds exactly like a father who treat his adopted son better than his natural son, what would u do if u r the real son?

In 20 years 2030, LKY would not be around to Social Engineered Singapore Populations!

Is it a Hell or Heaven in Singapore then! Let you Guess?

Is the World so willing to learn abt LKYism! Think China has already Ahead of us!

Singaporean Employees dare not Voice Up ( majority).
Singaporean Employers are luving it (no min wage).

This, to me, spells THE END.

Future. What kind of Future? Very rosey one is it?

Stop deluding ourselves that it is alright to have newly minted citizens leading us and everything will be alright. There is an outright difference between a born and bred here Singaporean and a foreigner taking an oath and a giftpack back to his house. By putting these people who were born and bred elsewhere is going to open up a great social divide in time to come, including but not limited to the very survival of the political party who open up this channel for them in the first place.
On record there is only 25% foreigners here now, but one does not need to look far to see that at ground level it is more like 90%. On any day taking an MRT ride, I can see the whole row of seats being taken up by foreigners. In one particular instance that is etched in my mind, I recall two Blangadeshis seated on my left where I am standing, then one who looked like a local lady, followed by two taiwanese ladies, from their accent and then two Indonesians and on the right two seats were occupied by Chinese Nationals who were necking away in public.
Either the locals were all at home, conserving energy or the statistics are not accurate.

If the government has listen to advise and take the route of the Nordic countries, we would have never been in this situation.
Just to share this experience with all of you. We were at Mustafa’s last Saturday night and it was packed. My wife noticed this and not once but many times.
As she walked past, of course being packed, you have to touch ,but the arms of the other person moved closer and lifted up slightly to touch her tighter and rub her arms or body longer than usual! No guessing which race did this!!!
It was amusing but at the same time don’t know what to say! Don’t knkow if they are visitors or working here. This was related by another brother , until we saw it for ourselves last Saturday.

#163 Raibina
I wonder why is your future in minimum wage. Say hypothetically the Government sets the minimum wage to $1000/- tomorrow.

(1) It does not directly benefit those earning more than $1000 monthly.

(2) As for those earning less than $1000/-, legally their pay will be raise to $1000. Business costs will go up and this higher costs go back to the consumers like you and I.

(3) Worst of all, without a control on new immigrants; the “FTs” who are taking away those locals’ jobs below $1000 will benefit because their pay will be raised to the minimum wage. Singaporeans are still on the losing end.

I do agree with you that the future in Singapore does not look very rosey. Our housing prices and other costs of living have have grown beyond what our average household income levels can sustain. I do not believe that the solution lies in minimum wage but in policies that can lower our costs of living and housing and creating jobs for sporeans.

“Business costs will go up and this higher costs go back to the consumers like you and I.”

Pay is only one component of business cost. Maybe other cost like petrol, ERP, office rental, shop rental should come down.

” I do not believe that the solution lies in minimum wage but in policies that can lower our costs of living and housing and creating jobs for sporeans.”

So you have some ideas here. What do you propose then?

This Foreigner Talents Policy is implemented for the mistake made 30 yrs ago that going to cause our extinction!

Remember 2 childrens under umberalla eating Apple!

We don’t blame FTs, they have the right to earn a Living as well as us Singaporean!

Singapore govt is pro-employer, anti-employee. They rather throw $$$ to investment than help the needy people.

Hi all,

I am a THIRD generation Singaporean, or Singaporean Bumiputra. My grandmother was born in Singapore, before SINGAPORE was born. My loyalty for Singapore cannot be doubted, I NEVER regard myself as Chinese national, unlike many of Singaporean elderly, who deep down their hearts, still treat themself as China man, though they have lived in Singapore for decades.

For the past 10 years, I find it more and more meaningless to call myself “Singaporean”, or Singapore my country my home. I am so pissed off, after that “imported Singaporean” women who won us sliver medal in Olympics, made that statement that ” As a BEIJINER, I am glad…..” it shoke me up that these IMPORTED Singaporeans are going to be like our elderly, deep down their hearts, there is a word “CHINA” imprinted so deep that it can never be erased. I do not blame them though, they are only being partriotic to the land where they are born.

After 2 generations of building that patriotism in my generations, the government is now eroding them away. Now, I preferred to call Singapore, Singapore, my most preferred HOTEL. I am an orphan now, as I need to look for a new home to stay, which I could comfortably retire. Why, cos we are treated as liabilities to Singapore, I know they will “kick” me out when I reach 50, when I can no longer work for them.

So, the bumiputra policy in Malaysia is not bad, at least they protect their own kind. Do we?

Without ‘Bumi-ism’, there will be no nationhood to talk about.

Filial piety is to our parents.

Loyalty(patriotism) is to a nation.

No nation, no loyalty.

Do we have a nation ???

patriot

#167) Mr Smalltime Busness Man

Labour costs forms 50% or more of business costs, rental forms 5%, utilities 15% and transport 15% (glance of some EDB figures on Manufacturing sector). Yes all costs has to drop.

I do not have the answers to our economic woes but I have some opinions. The equity bubble seen in the last few years was not created by wages keeping pace with productivity (the healthy formula for growth) but by the expansion of personal debt. Housing prices have sky rocketed after the annoucements of the building of Casinos in Singapore; nobody seems to mind the fact the Casinos were a desperate measure to fill the gap in GDP left behind by the dwindling Manufacturing sector. New HDB prices in Toa Payoh Peak can fetch up to $755k sums up how bad the situation is. Public housing has increased to unaffordable levels for ordinary Singaporeans.

In my opinion, Wages and Housing prices in Singapore need to see a major Correction. Government should take the lead to reduce Civil service costs. We should tag the PM’s pay to twice that of the highest paid leader of a democratic government. We should reduce defence budget. With the reduced Civil service costs, we can afford to reduce GST, ERP and Petrol taxes. Curtail personal credit by prudent monetary policy at MAS. If you cannot borrow 8 – 10 times your annual salary to buy a house, a healthy figure will be 3-5 times annual income; housing prices will be corrected.

Control the supply and quality of “FTs”. If the demand for service staffs exceeds the local plus limited FT supply, salaries will be higher because of market forces. If this is done in line with the productivity figure, the growth in salary can be sustainable. Minimum wage without control on the supply of FTs, will not benefit anyone.

Lastly, Improve taxation to distribute wealth more evenly.

@171) patriot on June 26th, 2009 10.39 am

Well, do we have a nation that cares for its own? Again, the question of value of NS to those that had served is never answered herein.

As I posed another #21) the following:

“….PS. Very patroitic nomer ‘I Love Singapore” ? If a shooting war breaks out, will you be statistically/determistically be the third person to be KIA in an operation? Simple YES/NO, pls…”

U care to answer this? Maybe u can be the first KIA…. be sure to shout “Majulah Singapore” with your last breath!

Headlines: Future Singaporeans beacoming a nation of Cheat and Liars

Yesterday The Straits Times reported that a Foreign Talent attempted to cheat and liar his way to obtain his PR. In his plead not to impose jail term on him, he highlighted his successful business in Singapore which made him $1 million dollars and employs some 150 Singaporeans whose livelihoods are at stake if his business is to wind up. In addition, the exisitng public sector projects currently undertaken by his company will also be affected.

I welcome such Foreign Talent, because he is not only capable of holding Singaporean workers at ransom, but the Government of Singapore too.

When he sets up his next business enterprise, he can just change his name and education qualifications. Maybe he will get lucky the next time and achieve his dreams of making more money, getting his PR and suckering more hardworking Singaporeans.

#174,

there are more to it. lot of chinese set up company and compete with prices like nobody business. it is crazy situation in the construction industry in singapore at the moment. what would happen when construction industry is down after the 2 casino projects? you wont be surprised that PR or no PR, when they are facing financial problem instead of what this chap claimed now could be the opposition. that is he is nowhere to be found.

@166 Sotongball wrote “Our housing prices and other costs of living have have grown beyond what our average household income levels can sustain. ”

///////\\\\\\\\

agree with above but still disagree with your view on no need for min wage and that min wage is BAD. Commonsense says that the lowest waged singaporeans are suffering on an UNLEVEL PLAYING FIELD with FWs.
I hope you do not mistaken FW with FTs and min wage with high wage.

Min wage will not incurr higher business cost by much IF you know how to do it well. What your concern is about is the negative side of the coin. Why not think about the other side of the coin?

Min wage is more to protect and fight for decent salary for singaporeans. Yes, singaporoeans who live in what you said, a very expensive and will be getting EVEN MORE Expensive soon.

Min wage can :
1. improve worker productivity as decent salary satisfies the Maslow Hierarchy’s base levels.

2. improve worker morale.

3. prevents Employers, including Singapore citizen Employers from exploiting lowest waged singaproeans using FW to push down their salaries. note min wage is for Lowest wage singaporeans. LOWEST. say it again. As the name implies, its the lowest salary to be changed and this will not drastically cause business costs to increase. Yes, it may increase a bit. But this CAN BE offset by the increase in productivity, performance expectation etc. Yes, workers may need to perform a bit better but that is better than getting a depressed wage.

4. your point is not valid as you only focus on the negative side. I presented BOTH the negative (increase business cost, affect all wage levels [which is not true or need not be true]) as well as the positive (morale, productivity and many others i have not included) sides of what min wage can offer.

Min Wage is to set a lowest level limit to wages to protect SINGAPOREAN workers living in a high cost very pro-business policy (not disagree entirely) environment. Being pro business need not mean lowest wages.

So, you rely on the Unions to fight for them?

PEACE

#176,

agree totally…

Minimum Wage is only meaningful if costs of living is not raise in tandem.

It would defeat the purpose of setting minimum wage if costs of consumables and services are raised. We are very awared that hikes have been made due to high rentals, high transportation charges and yes (high?) wages have always been cited as a reason for increases in costs of living.

It will be preferable for lowering of costs of goods and services than having higher wages. Dare I say that raising the wages for the low incomes will not make them affordable for the increases in the costs of their public housing and almost every essential(basic) consumption. And the relentless increases in goods and services are hardly justified or justifiable, they are artificially manipulated.

patriot

#154 Edward

LKY can think what he wants….as for me I upgraded myself from a heartlander to a foreign talent am working overseas. So much for foreigners being smarter.

Why?
Because since a some years back, i already have worked in companies (huge MNCs) whose IT department consists of people from another land where being a citizen , a local, is like a stranger in a ‘foreign’ land.

So, i mean, the article title should be
“A nation full of foreigners ALREADY – no need wait for 11 years.”

injoy more good good.

Any min. wage criteria should not be arbitrarily set. Its main purposes are (a) to prevent exploitation of employees, e.g. forcing Sporeans to accept wages that third world workers are OK with, and (b) as fair compensation relative to the standard of living of a society, e.g. can pay for a roof over head, 3 decent meals a day, send kids to school, have a TV (license cost), pay CFP, etc…. If costs of living in Spore goes up, so be it, as long as the min. wages also go up proportionally.

On (b): Unfortunately, one of our highest cost is housing, and everyone knows HDB prices are rather “artificially” high. This mechanism locks people in to work like hell in their prime (like till 62 now?) in order to secure a basic necessity of life, thereby generating fat taxes & GST for TH/GIC to gamble on investments.

On (a): According to an ex-NTUC person in another forum/topic, the lack of min. wage is deliberate policy– to attract FI (foreign investments). I can see this means labor cost, a main component in any operation, must be left to discretion of the MNCs, with blessings by our Triparitie gimmick (recall DBS amongst first to retrench without much courtesy to the other 2 parties). If MNCs pull out, then no GDP! Employment (FT or Sporeans) is secondary, wage levels is tertiary, citizens’ opinions is quadratic, and consideration for NS done is shit!

So, the conclusion is that we can talk ‘until cow comes home’ on pros and cons of a min.wage system, but the fact is we are wasting our time. It just ain’t, ever, to happen here.

“New HDB prices in Toa Payoh Peak can fetch up to $755k..” – SotongBall @72

- With this money (based on nominal exch rate), you can buy a freehold 4-bed detached house with a beautiful garden in the UK (not in central London, but in many other good places/towns outside of London). It shows how much HDB prices are blown out of proportion. The cost of building a house in the UK is very high because there are very stringent building standards to adhere to, so we are comparing to good qualtiy landed properties which need deep foundations. As for the other things that come with living in the place, Spore has no leisure outlets, good quality fresh meat, veges & fruit, and not much in place to protect the welfare of workers & residents. In short, they suck money out of Sporeans for as long they can do so.

“Improve taxation to distribute wealth more evenly.” – SontongBall@72

- This taxation issue really need a big article written on it. I suggest TOC do it. Many Sporeans actually believe that tax by any other name is not tax. Eg:

- All mothers who work and employ maids are paying tax called maid’s levy.
- All the people who eat at hawker centres or food courts are paying tax through rental.

- These are the two worst forms of tax because rich or poor, you pay the same tax! Whether you are a bank director or a factory operator, you pay the same maid’s levy. Wheter you are very poor or you are a student (not earning anything) or you are a child, you still pay $1 in rental for a bowl of noodle (min 100 bowls a day yields $3000 per month, about right for rental charge, depends on location of course). If you earn more, you also pay only $1 rental for the same bowl of noodle.

- I am sure there are many other stealth taxes to add. Will TOC pls do an article on this.

Well, already happened in certain workplace. The foreigners dominated as the majority. In my previous workplace, only 2 out of 10 person were singaporean.

with a large influx of foreigners (PRs, FTs, FWs, students) in our midst, what is the likelihood of social intergration?

possible barriers to a successful social intergration:
1) langauge,
2) lifestyle differences,
3) xenophobia,
4) personal bias,
5) cultural differences,
6) unwillingness to venture outside 1 comfort zone?,
7) fear (on part of foreigners) of rejection, point 3 & 4, true to certain extent .
did i miss out any?

even for locals, there are some who prefer to socialise within a their own “inner circle” of cliques, be it in school or at work. with the rapid pace which foreigners from any given country, its little surprise if they prefer to stick with their own kind than take risks intergrating socially.

i do not have any hard facts to back them up, anyone fell free to disagree, if so do share your points as well. thanks. ;)

“According to the model shown in nearly all introductory textbooks on economics, increasing the minimum wage decreases the employment of minimum-wage workers. One such textbook says:

“If a higher minimum wage increases the wage rates of unskilled workers above the level that would be established by market forces, the quantity of unskilled workers employed will fall. The minimum wage will price the services of the least productive (and therefore lowest-wage) workers out of the market. … ”

This excerpt from Wiki sums up my concerns about minimum wage if the supply of “FTs” or FWs are not controlled. Will least productive Singaporeans be priced out of the market? I think so.

Just like there is No Minimum Wage for Singapore, there should not have Maximum Wage for the top according to law of economic.

Compare Orange to Orange! Is Singapore better than Taiwan or Korea with competitive democracy in area of economy?
Judge for Yourself!

In future!Maybe well qualified FTs will rule over us when law of large volume come in!
That day will come!
Change in the only constant !

[...] “Half of Singapore’s population could consists of foreigners in 11 years time..” Ng E-Jay [...]

I Think CHINA PEOPLE are the pest of singapore society. Many Singapore woman are divorcing their husband because they have affairs with China ladies who goes into sweet-talking which many man are suckers for that!!!!!! This is already effecting the singapore population, so HOW to promote originally singaporean babies????? They may make use of the guys for PRs, making babies & then disappear. Doesn’t that sounds familiar????? They are out to cheat for Money, then they will proceed to other countries like USA. Singapore is just a stepping stone for them.

The China Ladies on pretext of coming to singapore is to work as prostitutes, Massage parlours – “so called Hair & Beauty Salon” earning as much as they can. They can even seduce the guys in public shamelessly. They are fooling the government sectors on visiting visa or studying visa.

I would say too much of them are in singapore. Ist question comes to my mind : IS SINGAPORE BECOMING CHINA???? Just because they are chinese??? Government wants to have more chinese babies????

We are talking about the growing (Birth) population for singapore, NOT THE EMPLOYMENT OF CHINA INTO SINGAPORE

Indonesia, philippines come to singapore to work as maid. Can the China ladies do that for a scratch?????

Talking so much about the foreigners in singapore, i forgot to include NEPALESE Gurkhas. After 15 years of service, Singapore Government should consider to allow singles or married nepalese gurkhas to have PR to start a new life in singapore with the family rather than deported back to nepal after service. I THINK ITS NOT FAIR!!!! Gurkhas can work in Singapore Police Force as they had worked together before, isn’t??? They can be talents too with good, friendly characters.

If Government can allow china, indonesia or philipines to work & stay & have PRs, WHY nepalese gurkhas are not allowed???

Curiousity is killing me, Please!!! Good guys out there, Please help me

Thank You!

“They are fooling the government sectors on visiting visa or studying visa.”

- Wrong! The gahmen is fooling the public that they allow them in only on visiting visa or study visa, that they have strict restriction policy in place. There really are some (like one KopitiamApek kind) who will buy this excuse from gahmen. Their aim is to get as many to come and spend in Spore as possible. All who reside here are ‘their customers’ paying GST, levies, charges, utility bills, telephone bills, and NTUC bills (all gahmen owned right?) Do the normal citizens get anything out of this? Only Tan Koo Koo.

To highlight how FT/FWs are changing our social fabric, another MURDER yesterday, in Queenway. Suspect = Chinese import. Victim = Chinese imported (PR already, lah). Better add another lock to my door.

181) theforgottongeneration on June 26th, 2009 5.30 pm
“Any min. wage criteria should not be arbitrarily set. Its main purposes are (a) to prevent exploitation of employees, e.g. forcing Sporeans to accept wages that third world workers…”

Of course. A Min Wage should exist for EACH type of job. To simplify and make it easier to implement, there could be 3 categories of min wage for different industries or types of jobs. eg. $990 , $1300 & $ 1800. No singaporean should work for less.

This is to protect them from brutal market forces where 3rd world fw come to increase / ensure profit of employers including true blue singaporean bosses .
nothing against fw. If I am a boss, i thank them for their cheaperability. by this, i do not mean cheap where ‘cheaper’ is a comparative term. eg. $1mil salary may be cheaper than a salary of $1.5mil.

There IS already Min Wage set for CEO’s like for a certain INC or company, the CEO or similar level top senior management are getting a Min Wage of $1 million per month. If they get paid lesser by 1 cent, they may cry ‘peanuts!’

Is time to drastically increase taxes on all Malaysian working in Singapore yet choosing to stay in Malaysia.
Is time to drastically increase taxes on all immigrants who rob Singaporean of their jobs.
Is time to fight, the Monarchy has created for the immigrants and getting
Singaporean to fight among themselves so to lose focus of the entire
picture.

We are living day and nite worrying and the Monarchy is dancing and partying
like nobody businesses.

Now (2009) 4.84 million. Of which 3.63 are Singaporean & PR.

JUST HOW MANY OF THE 3.63 MILLIONS ARE FOREIGNERS/EMPLOYMENT PASS HOLDERS QUICKLY BECOMING SINGAPOREANs & PRs IN THE LAST 10 YEARS.

MANY MANY.

So the actual long term and born-in -Singaporeans are much lesser than the 3.63 million.

you can’t handle the truth….truth is that Singapore is not a country but a HOTEL and you Singaporean doing NS military duty is all for nothing and you guys get paid even lower that foreign workers! My foreign friends will never come here if they have to do some form NS even in non-combat roles and that is the truth.

ahahah the main reason why singaporeans cant/ don’t want to have children is because of the life they are enduring. if they are suffering so much from these FTs, they started thinking how terrible it could be in the future.( mind you, the countries where the FTs come from, they got no other past times than make children, thats why their population more than 1 billion).

Absolutely bullshit… Sg would be better if we are taking on QUALIFIED migrants but its not the case… How many “educated” PRCs do you see living here? Basically any Tom Dick & Harry can now becomes a PR if they raise their hands…

196) FedUp on June 30th, 2009 11.30 am ,

yes, you are right! i personally witnessed one indian worker who happened to be a S pass holder after working few years. he applied personally for PR and got it. for what i know, he is not up to the standard of we would expected as FTs in singapore.

imagine that!!

Can all of us gather some strength and let our voices be heard rather than sit and wait for Singapore to be colonised by foreigners once again?

@198) Homeless on June 30th, 2009 5.31 pm

What do you have in mind, serious? Given the past and present policies of the gahmen? Basically, babies can’t be made overnight, it takes 18+ years to produce an employable person and we seem desperate to hit the 6 millions figure, by hook or by crook. In other words, we are screwed!

@199) theforgottongeneration on June 30th, 2009 5.55 pm

1) We should at least let the gahmen understand the Singaporean’s opinions and feelings about the FT policy. We are not restricting or against the FT policy as we know that it is somewhat beneficial to the survival of Singapore in the long run, however the rate of population increase at the expenses of interest of Singaporeans should be seriously taken into consideration.

2) Gahmen should impose more tax on companies who are employing foreign workers since these companies are complaining that the main reason why they employ foreigners is mainly due to the lack of Singaporean workers. Hence, to deter companies from exploiting cheap labours and causing job losses to Singaporeans, foreign worker levies should increase to match basic salary of employing a Singaporean worker.

3) Currently, any foreigners are being taken as an FT, be it the China lady cleaner or Malaysian sales lady. To appease true Singaporean mindset and prevent further hostilities towards FT, the Gahmen should increase the welfare of true Singaporeans.

4) Increase the hurdle to transfer from a PR status to a Singaporean citizenship. Gahmen should take into account the period of stay of a PR in Singapore, and strictly ensure that the new citizens do really give up their original citizenships before granting Singapore citizenships. I do know of many new citizens who still possess their original citizenships. This is very unfair to Singaporeans who has to adher to the law.

5) Free education for Singaporeans who are born and bred in Singapore up to Tertiary level. I believe this policy will also boost birthrate as parents have one big burden off. We should learn from Australians in this case.

6) Increase the barrier of entry and accept only true FT with creditable education. If gahmen allows any foreigners with any degree or diploma from any University from any country, it will erode the overall education level for the locals who went through the Singaporean education with blood and sweat. Is it fair to local Uni & poly students if Gahmen opens it’s big door to accept any so called FT with disreputable institutes.

@200) Homeless on June 30th, 2009 6.32 pm

There are lots of good views posted here, quite a lot echoing what you are saying. Basically, you should take a broader perspective of our policies over the years — they are geared toward pro-growth and NOT pro-citizens. My own views to your proposals:

1) The gahmen knows how Sporeans gonna feel about it, and … basically F*** care! It is widely known that they screwed up with the 2-is-enough policy years back, now the effects are here to haunt us. The gahmen definitely doesn’t apologises for past mistakes, they just expects us to “move on”. Target = 6 million people & fast. Period.

2) Why kill off companies by increasing their cost of operation? Basically if coys die, no GDP/taxes! The excuse of lack of Sporeans is a fallacy. See postings #110, #116, #181, etc.. on min. wage issue, etc…

3) Why should they appease you & me? You hostile toward FT is your problem. You probably wouldn’t get to vote in elections, yet they return to parliament. In truth, Sporeans’ welfare already sold out. You think the billions given to GIC/TH cannot be used to increase our welfare? TH lost ~$60 BILLIONS in 6 months! THey still cannot explain why so much used in investments! On 11 June, our health minister announced $25m was used to build 3 new nursing homes. Big deal! If TH’s $60b losses were used for our infrastructure, 7200 nursing homes can be built! And U wonder why he tells us to go to Johor to retire. U know how many babies can be generated if that $60b was given to Sporeans as maternity leave buy-out, baby bonuses, pro-family incentives, etc…?

4) See (1) above –> target 6 million people. Period. Unfair? Sporeans males who served 2.5yrs & 10+ yrs reservist are made to compete with these FT/Fw’s. Probably 600,000’s gone thru NS, but 1.6m foreigners here now — 6 mths, PR already. U think the gahmen is “fair”?

5) MOney is channeled to TH/GIC to gamble on investments, none left for trivials like “free education for Sporeans”. Besides, we are not a welfare society.

6) First, differentiate a FT and a FW. Again, target = 6 millions. Short-cut = import even low-grade materials. You don’t need real or fake paper qualification to generate GDP!

So, pal, the issue is not so much as thinking up rational solutions but to reclaim your rights as a citizen to influence national policies. Again, pls think! For the sake of our future generations.

“So, pal, the issue is not so much as thinking up rational solutions but to reclaim your rights as a citizen to influence national policies. Again, pls think! For the sake of our future generations.”

#201 – theforgottongeneration. Well said. Singaporeans need to “wake up” and “realise” their social-political responsibility. The current regime has “failed” quite spectacularly; and hopefully, no more “blank” cheque to any future government managing the country in the next GE.

PS: Please stop asking for perceived “quality” opposition candidate, you won’t “see or hear” one till the level of competition between the political parties are at the same level. And I am finding even SDP becomes “attractive” by the day when the economic “worsen”.

201) theforgottongeneration on June 30th, 2009 11.48 pm

“reclaim your rights as a citizen to influence national policies” ==> What do you suggest then?

203) Homeless

Vote out the “useless” MP ( if you happen to have the chance to “vote”) for a start. “Balance” the distribution of power in the political arena. Send in the message that the “people” don’t want “yes” man.

Agree with #204 Dumb and dumber.

Use your vote to effect a change.. No use being status quo and then complain for next few years.

We need more opposition MPs, so that any policies/bitter pills that are formulated had better be thought thro’ many times (viewed from multiple angles) instead of just pushed thro’ in parliament by the ruling party.

Just look at the compulsory cpf-life policy, and the ever increasing minimum sum (an increase of $11000 for 2009), wonder how many of us can contribute that much in a year (just OA/SA, still need to factor in medisave)..

Two days, I heard a Singaporean couple in their 40s on the mrt train lamenting that Singapore has changed so much in the past ten years, that it was quite unusual to see ang mo aka foreigners around Singapore and that nowadays it was so common to see them everywhere now. And seriously, on that cabin, I could chatter of at least 5 different languages…so you guess it they were worried of their future prospects of Singaporean and especially that of their own.

Seriously, I could identify with them. I cannot imagine how cosmopolitan we can become? And at what cost?

#206,

cost is not an issue to gahmen as long as they can keep digging from eventually FTs turned PRs or Citizenship.

the prize they paid for….eventually born singaporean will be reduced or disappeared in no time.

“And seriously, on that cabin, I could chatter of at least 5 different languages…so you guess it they were worried of their future prospects of Singaporean and especially that of their own.”

No choice lah, Certain things that have been done cannot be undone so easily – as some lives (foreign ones with their family & children) are already heavily invested here. Learn to adapt. If you need to treat this place like a market place, just do it as the whole atmosphere now is too “inviting” for anyone with some nostalgic memory left to feel this way this time round.

As they do need your concurrence to implement policies that suit their super-fantastic ideas, likewise you do not need to owe them any reason of how you want to feel and treat this place. As for future of singaporeans, you jolly well learn how to take care of yourselves and exercise any of your important decision making very very carefully.

@203) Homeless on July 1st, 2009 9.45 am

The worst thing is for Sporeans to be apathetic. That is why I think forums & blogs are good places to exchange views. This means we should really CONVINCE ourselves, and others, that the situation needs changing. Be honest and fair in our conviction, e.g. voting in opposition may just replace a bunch of clowns with another.

Then think how your VOICE (not necessarily VOTE) can be MADE to count, e.g. you have a choice to vote either ruling party, opposition, individual, no confidence, etc. If you know “A Few Good Men” out there, it will be good, etc…. This wouldn’t be easy questions for a common man-on-the street (we are not paid to think politically), but I believe when push comes to shove, people will be …. innovative!

Either that, or simply jump ship to another country, lah!

“If you know “A Few Good Men” out there, it will be good, etc….”

This catchy marketing tagline is only good for selling fake koyok to those goondoos who need it to cure their damaged brain cells. It is like big discounts for closing down sales in shops which never close.

i think forums and blogs reveal a lot about the singaporean mind. kiasu and kiasi are just some of the unique traits they have inherited from their political masters. the other traits, too offensive to mention here. chop chop by these traits.

the once clean estate i m living in is now a mini dumpsite; tissue papers, soiled napkins thrown out of the windows and landing on the aircon condenser, dirty mops hanging out the windows even after u ask them not to hang their dirty drippy mops out of the windows, they pretend they don’t understand what u are saying or politely asking.,the culprits? the china nationals living above u! half of the residents here are foreigners, mostly from india and china, the former are snobs cos they think they are better than us (high class? living in a rented hdb and they are high class? lol), the latter spits (pity the one walking behind!, i even saw one young china FT spit out of her five storey bedroom window one morning without checking to see if anyone was below!), in the wet market one market, i was waiting to be served by the vegetable stall holder, this china man walked to the stall and demanded aggressively to the old lady stallholder he wanted to be served right away..i told him to queue up, he gave me a dirty look, and walked away, i see china n india(or pakistan or bangladeshi, whatever!) nationals with the whole family in tow, FT worker, wife, young child, grand parents, just how do they all manage to get in so easily?..there is hardly enough space for us singaporeans! ..they also quarrel very loudly, the whole estate can hear their raised voices (this estate used to be quiet and peaceful..alas, all that is gone with the influx of FT living here), they congregrate in groups in the small park in our estate, then leave their litter behind, mostly beer bottles and cans, they pee in the void decks when they think no one is looking… the locals are fed up, i m fed up, my son is worried about job prospects after uni here (that is if he can get a place here, being a poly student), his peers feel the same, they are fed up n worried with so many foreign talents taking up precious few jobs here…singapore is just way too crowded for us now, i can’t walk on the streets without banging into a china or india or bangladeshi or pakistan national, not to mention the ang mohs, they are just everywhere these days! i can’t get the china lady manning the food stalls to understand i want my coffee black and strong, or that i want tau sa pow, not the chicken pow, not the char siew pow, but tau sa pow! i can’t make the china lady in the shop understand i want to pay using nets, i can’t make the india national lady understand please don’t spit in front of me while walking! when in the supermarket, if u r unfortunate enough to be queueing behind or in front of an ang moh lady, and happen to glance at her, she gives u this haughty i m superior than u look..than how come she is shopping in ntuc fairprice supermart leh, and not jason’s, or marketplace, or cold storage, huh? i heard once this ang moh lady telling her friend (i was in the loo, they thought they were alone, or they just didn’t care whether they were heard or not) that local women are crass, no class, don’t know how to dress, have small breasts, not sure if these ang moh cats were tourists or PRs..i m just so fed up! i have been a faithful PAP supporter all these days, but if nothing is done to stem the flow of these so called FT, i fear for my son’s job prospects after uni here (that is if he can get a place, being a poly student!), i might just consider voting for the oppo next election..someone got to speak for us common people leh! please, gahmen, listen to ur people, hor, not the foreigners u let in! i don’t mind letting in some foreigners, but please not sooooo many leh! and not the whole family in tow.

despite the stresses brought on by FTs/FWs, PRs & newly turned citizens, perhaps these are good opportunities to be forthcoming with people who may not know they are being inconsiderate.

thus far living in a HDB unit, i personally have not have to put up with wet dripping mops, laundry, or loud music late into the night. i could have be the “luckier” lot. that said i believe there are truely some bad eggs among those groups.

i urge all who approach those non S’poreans to be more amicable when letting them know that some of the way they do things are affecting others living in closed quarters. i have personally seen ugly S’poreans the hostile & aggressive way they approach others who have rubbed them the wrong way, intentionly or not.

for every action, there is an equal reaction.

despite the stresses brought on by FTs/FWs, PRs & newly turned citizens, perhaps these are good opportunities to be forthcoming with people who may not know they are being inconsiderate.

thus far living in a HDB unit, i personally have not have to put up with wet dripping mops, laundry, or loud music late into the night. i could have be the “luckier” lot. that said i believe there are truely some bad eggs among those groups.

i urge all who approach those non S’poreans to be more amicable when letting them know that some of the way they do things are affecting others living in closed quarters. i have personally seen ugly S’poreans the hostile & aggressive way they approach others who have rubbed them the wrong way, intentionly or not.

for every action, there is an equal reaction. ;)

hello mice is nice..i have tried to talk in a polite friendly neighbourly way to my neighbours from china upstairs..no joy..i have no problems with foreigners living in my estate, but please do not turn our estate into dumping site! i have had door slammed in my face when i asked politely n in a friendly way if they could remove their drippy mop cos the i had laundry hanging out, my neighbour a few doors away has problems with the foreign national living above her throwing soiled napkins/tissue papers/nail clippingsonto her aircon condenser, these days she is just too afraid to have her window open! we tried to be reasonably with these foreigners, but they seem to think they have to right to throw their trash anywhere n everywhere. ..for every action, there is an equal reaction? sorree, i can’t see myself slamming my door into someone’s face! or throw dirty soiled napkins out of the window!

hi Dove,

i am not saying that all S’poreans are hostile & unfriendly lot, just that when 1 tried to approach the “culprit” in an amicable manner & has the door slammed in the face then its not your fault.

sometimes, some people can be quick on the draw without, realising 1’s own shortcomings, glad you are not like that. i am sorry you have to live with such un-neighbourly folks around you. there is little 1 can do to change them, i think any of your complains to (TCs, police) will be brushed off as there is a nation-wide effort to welcome them. civil servants will just toe the party line….

sorry if i have made it sound like you were at fault, i was not refering to you despite me posting after you. at times like this most true blue S’poreans can only grin & bear it. the threat to ricebowls, rising stress from inconsiderate FWs/FTs, PRs & newly converted citizens…

“An economy that has a GDP growth rate of 4% and a population growth rate of 2% would have a per capita GDP growth rate of 2%. The per capita GDP growth rate is especially important because it indicates the actual increase in average income being experienced by the people of the country. If a country had a 2% GDP growth rate, but a 3% population growth rate, its per capita GDP growth rate would actually be negative, at -1%. The people would on average be getting poorer each year, even though the overall economy is growing. A more positive way of putting it is that, for people’s incomes on average to increase over time, the GDP growth rate must exceed the rate of population growth.”

Why do we need so many FT/FWs? Is it because Singapore is transforming from a highly scalable manufacturing based economy to a less scalable service based economy? Less scalable means you need more people to get the same amount of output or GDP. The nett result could be that GDP grows at a snail’s pace (after this recession) but because of a bigger population, the average Singaporean is poorer.

Damaged brain bargain hunters read ad wrongly thinking they can get pearls at closing down shops to resell at boss 2nd class jewelery shop. Recession lah, boss employed goondoos…or FTs/FWs… can’t even pass stupidity trait test.

Personally, I believe this is the most important thread online citizen has presented in her website. This issue would greatly determine the future of Singapore and the welfare of the next generation. Therefore, I hope the moderation can keep important issues like this alive in her website so that as many online citizens can get to view it, and continue to air their opinions. Now, this thread has only a few thousand views and it is already in the archive, slowly but surely, it would be swept under the carpet and the power of information would be lost if you do not search the archives, as it continues to move from one thread to the other. I suggest important issue like this should always remain on the homepage visible for all to see and continue to keep it alive and going. Unless we believe this is not important to me, my family, my country, my children’s future, then it would die a natural cause. Otherwise, you would begin to the see the power of the internet, creating a powerful force of information and public opinions of how we want things to happen for ourselves, family, and country. If this issue really matters to us, let it grow, you never know how many more online citizens would leave their opinions. i.e 1 million? Election would not be too far away, the only way we can change the system is through our rights to vote as citizen of Singapore, and it is through website like this that would help to build up awareness of the important issues of this country, and it also acts as information and education as we head towards the next election.

i agree with roy @5th july….my two cents’ worth of opinion may not matter the slightest to the gahmen, but if many of us keep this issue alive, contribute as actively as possible, we keep hammering at it, maybe the gahmen will take notice..i don’t understand why we need so many employment pass FTs in our country, surely we have just as capable singaporeans (those who were laid off in their late 40s and 50s, in top managerial posts?) who can do the job just as well? surely we are not a nation of goondus? do we really need a vibrant (the norm excuse given for employment white collared FTs) society? give me a less vibrant society, and more employment for our own people!

That is why in my crudest mind I sometimes wish for a war to hit Singapore. Only then will we see who are the people that will take arms to protect the country they hold so dear and the FTs running away back to their homeland

I read western and eastern history. Both have common ground.
When the Monarchy feel threaten, they will create confusion
among the peasants. Let the peasants fight among themselves for
resources. As long as they are too busy fighting, the monarch
can step in as a middleman to comfort and rule.
Divide and rule.
They will.
Now, you know why there are so many immigrants in Singapore?
We are fighting the immigrants but I will suggest we fight the MONARCHY.

i strongly feel this subject should be kept alive…MM is telling us now why we need the immigrants….i seem to remember when i was in my child bearing years, i was told i couldn’t have more than two children…this is the price we r paying today..we need the immigrants to make up the numbers!!
just how many immigrants are really here for the long haul? in the meantime, singaporeans are being treated like second class citizens (no cheap fares for the elderly!!), and once u reach ur forties, u r no longer of value to this country’s economy slave machine, so they bring in the whites, china nationals, india indians, malaysians to replace singaporeans who had done their bits for their country, and who are now considered worthless. i don’t wann a vibrant country, i wann our country men (singaporeans who had served their national service, singaporeans who r still loyal to this country, albeit not for long the way it is going) to have jobs so they can feed their families, not having to worry about where the hell they are going to get the money to pay their mortgages, to support their elderly parents…i m pretty sure singaporeans have lost their jobs to these immigrants, or foreign talents…we the common people are not stupid nor ignorant..we know people who know people who had lost their jobs to FTs….any reason why we should welcome them? i have india’s indians who do not integrate with us residents here in my estate, who look down on our own indian nationals..any reason why we should welcome them?
we should keep this subject alive!

One questioin flitted into my mind with the population statistics. Did they measure the rate if Singapore citizens emigrating over the years?

I suspect the pace and rate has increased the past 5 years, and the number is growing higher each year.

Tell us something, doesn’t it?

Looking back on my own situation and the reason I left SinKapore, I realised it was education opportunity that attracted me to up root and travel far away from the land of my birth. with the inflood of FT/FW the job opportunities and education for the younger one will be more competitive. Whether it is a right policy or not it is too early to tell but the pressure is being felt by those who had to compete Being a third generation SinKaporean, sad to say I do not feel I belong to the country of my birth. UK offers more education opportunities beside generous education grant for students including overseas students. Just imagine, a guy with just 11 “O” level given a chance to study BSc in engineering. Most of us SinKaporean were channelled into educational stream from primary six onward and denied opportunity if one was a late developer. It was especially true if one ended up in a school called Gan Eng Seng. Those of us, who took the bold decision to up root and move out to seek a better life will be rewarded if one apply ourselves diligently. Importing large number of FT/FW is a short term solution but with potential long term consequences. UK had its fair share of problems with large inflood of migrant workers. Large town and city had been taken over by these migrants and ghetto were formed leading to racial disharmony. Hopefully, in the case of SinKapore, the negative aspect of this policy will not lead to racial problems in the future.

@225) George on October 22nd, 2009 5.01 pm

There is one main difference between S’pore’s foreign import policy and that of other countries. For UK, the foreign-born population = 9.7% (2005) while S’pore is 36% (2009). The ODEC countries usually see +/-2% max growth in the 1 DECADE; S’pore FWs/FTs increased by 1% of population from 2008 to 2009. Logically it is much easily to assimilate 1 foreigner with 9 locals; we are now dealing with nearly 3.6 foreigners to 6.4 locals.

So, whatever you see as “take-overs” of jobs, towns, homes, etc.. by foreigners in UK, Singapore is having 3x the effect.

Singapore’s PR problem in the Economist magazine:

http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14859345

lowly paid,long hours..who would want to work in the singapore service industry.In developed countries they are paid 3 to 4 time more…and have more pride than us cheap labourers with no choice,except for the uneduacated,old singaporean.only foreigners from 3rd world countries hunger for these jobs…