There is scope for creating “economic recovery” jobs but the effect is limited.

In conjuction to the above, I suggests that all government and quasi-government departments review their costs and profit structure and cut costs whenever possible.

By reducing costs of services and products would benefit everyone and this would increase the spending power of those still employed and create new jobs.

Example, town council conservation charges. Most town councils have large surpluses which were invested with low or negative returns. The economic recession would have brought down the costs of maintenance, painting etc. By reducing conservation charges, every HDB family would benefit.

Other examples, cost of passports, road tax, tv & radio licence.

We have a bunch of top and highly paid people who do not really know what to do. The large sums of money given to employers in the Job Credit Scheme was wasted on healthy
companies and as for those companies who were in trouble, only a few jobs could be saved, and not for long too if the companies remain in trouble. What they should do is to use the money to create jobs, including those that TKL suggested but could include others too. Have a open forum to discuss this. The so called forum by Tharman with employers and union leaders (PAP people really) would not be representative. Listening to these would only make a fool of yourself. Can the government says how many jobs were saved and how much each of these costs???

If government cannot bring down the overall cost of living, I concur that setting a minimum wage will make a different to a lot of people, especially those barely able to make ends needs. One step at a time. But I am skeptical even this minimum wage scheme is able to pass through by the parliament; cos imagine the impact to those that have maids at home.

There are already people jumping off the window. Sigh.

Sleeping on the JOB with obscene salary is the best job. No wonder they have no solution because there is no pressure for them to think of any strategy. When the pig becomes fat, its brain gets smaller. We can either wait now for america to recover or the nearest election day, whichever is earlier, to change our fate.

1) Get the low paid workers salaries to a comparable and realistic level
and fairer labour laws for all even FTs.
2) Reduce the cost of living for us, GST, high HDB prices.
3) Reduce the unrealistic levels of salaries of our leaders and governement top brass etc.
Sound simplistic, yes but practical. A good life does not mean only the $ sign, but
less struggle and worry just to live life.

Hi Mars #1

Your suggestion may create a negative impact, for the following reasons:

1. Businesses and government depts are cutting costs. The best way is to reduce jobs. So, more people get retrenched.

2. Those who jobs work harder and longer hours, so that they can keep their jobs. This leads to more retrenchment.

3. People who feel insecure about their jobs reduce their spending. This cause more businesses to have difficulty. They have to reduce employment.

4. It becomes a vicious cycle.

We need measures to create more jobs, so that more people feel secure and cap spend normally, to create jobs for other people.

I agree with your views about reducing cost through reducing taxes and unnecessry expenditure (i.e. spending on high salaries, overseas consultants, hardware, militiary equipments, etc). I will write about this separate matter in a future article.

Thanks for contributing.

There was a letter in the ST from an official of SMRT. She asked commuters to be orderly in entering the trains. The commuters rush into the train as it was crowded, and they want to have a seat, or just a place.

SMRT can afford to engage more people to direct the commuters in the train stations. This is used in the advanced countries. It creates jobs and serve a useful purpose. It makes life more pleasant, although it reduces the profit of SMRT or add slightly to the travelling cost.

We need to create jobs and not just keep reducing jobs, when there are so many unemployed people that are idling.

The Government has to take the lead and set the example for businesses. They may have to mandate that businesses meet certain service standards, instead of just reducing cost to make more profits.

I think more need to invest in infrastructure. For example, the recent OpenNet thingy which is installing fiber optic cables. Govt can invest, and reduce the time (completion – 95% coverage, is set to be in 2012) needed to cover the whole island. This can reduce cost (broadband costs) and increase productivity, thus cutting cost without cutting jobs.

Other infrastructure that can be developed is our mass transport part. Improving it such that more people are willing to use it, over using their own cars. This improves traffic conditions, and cuts cost (by cutting time for delivery, etc) and saves the environment to boot.

Oh please… you people think THEY will listen to ground sentiments???

Focus your energy on replacing this government better…

Our Gov just can’t listern and know all know best solutions but now no solution!

So how can learn if you already Number One and know all!

Reserve is depleting day by day and if our GDP rate of decline is 5-10% Qtrly. The impact on the Ground will likely be felt by next year!

I always feel that we should be more creative in creating our own income. Less dependence on the govt is better here. We have seen how inept they have being all these years.

Jobs Credit benefit the employers largely and I have heard of employers retrenching highly paid locals and replace them with foreigners as in the long run it is much cheaper to employ foreigners.

For example, a foreigner engineer from India can be employed for $2000 whereas a local engineer will cost around $3000 minimum. Jobs Credi will not be able to replace the wages “gained” by replacing locals with foreigner workers.

A accountant local firm I know have gradually “sack” all his local workers and replace them with foreigners some “illegally”. I met the boss and he told me that he could save 5 figure if he gradually replaces them to his quota level.

So much for equal employment opportunities in Singapore. We are becoming second class citizens in our own country and I am beginning to feel that Australia is getting to be a better country for me now.

Hi everybody, I think we need more positve comments. Thanks Kin Lian for sparking off this trend of thought with your insightful piece. There is a lot of merit in what you say.
Now if everybody who posts, sends in a suggestion or idea for the government to adopt to get our collapsing economy off the ground again, the flow of ideas may well help stimulate the stagnating brain cells of those in charge.
Let me start by responding to Dumber and Dumber #3:
Here is one solution to a potential problem which could be created by the imposition of a minimum wage — that of housemaids demanding higher “minimum” wages.
Solution: Use part of the maid levy (now going into government coffers) to raise maid wages

aiyoyo

just saw the news in cna :

SINGAPORE: Singapore’s Manpower Minister, Gan Kim Yong, has said that the US$13.7 billion budgeted to help Singaporeans deal with the economic downturn has been money well spent.

not sure if the invest no loss (not sure how many US$ in billion),

think local economy can be better saved hor…

aiyoyo

i think it’s about time the government must lay aside having high salary (which is at present is too way high) for best talented ppl. be creative on more job provided the cost is being brought down tremedously (will they approve?). otherwise, more job means more costs incurred to sustain and thus taxes ppl.
i am just an ordinary folk who has been struggling doing business for more than 20 years just to meet cost expenses(for staffs and office) let alone fat profits. so i see straight to the point of if you bring the costs way down and set a reasonable wages across the board, then business could be created substantially when ppl realised that they have enough after having to pay their needs, they can spent wisely and readily.

it is as simple as that!

further to my comment #14, i also concur #3 ideas but again wil they buy it??

i sense that government has more than meet the eye rather the sustainability of survival in sg.

Besides creating jobs, there should be fair employment too. Especially in the private sector. These days when one calls a company, for the vacancy advertised. The first think they ask is, what’s your race? or can you speak mandarin? How old are you? Sorry we are looking for one below 40 years! Is Mandarin really important when everybody gets educated in English, from kindergarten to university? English is used in workplace widely too. If Mandarin is a must in applying for a job, than our education policies should be changed too. Whereby it should be made compulsory for Minority citizens to learn Mandarin in schools, to be economically employable in adult life.
Does age really matter these days in Singapore when a large portion of our population is already ageing? What are 40 years and above to do when the prefered choice of workers these days are younger foreigners and Mandarin speaking?

Suggestions for these fools….I rather take the stand like CJ #9….
good suggestions they take…and then will ask for more salary….

HK officials are cutting thier salary…any news about these guys….

TOC good article….more simple jobs can be created……

We have to look more into part-time jobs…project like work….CDC’s should allocate them to qualified people..they have the database…
Asian Youth Games…hire people
Organize more fun events.
Talk to them who have worked in these projects and train them accordingly….

But I rather still follow CJ….get them out at least a few..then they will naturally wake up.

aiyoyo

cna reported :

HONG KONG: Hong Kong’s chief executive has said that he and top government ministers will take a pay cut of more than five per cent as part of the city’s belt-tightening during the economic downturn.
Donald Tsang and other senior officials will take a cut of 5.38 per cent, the chief executive told reporters.

wa, so proactive hor hongkong side, not sure if local elites do same or not?

aiyoyo

Is true that our citizens spending power has gone down. As a retailer, the impact is great. There is a need to address the job issue as many of our guys lost thier jobs or control their spending incase of retrenchment. The job credit that they gov. gave to us doesn’t helped much. Just hope the situations will get better days come. cheers.

Here is one solution to a potential problem which could be created by the imposition of a minimum wage — that of housemaids demanding higher “minimum” wages.
Solution: “Use part of the maid levy (now going into government coffers) to raise maid wages”

That’s why I am skeptical. Taking money out from government coffers, in my opinion, is rigging water out of rock. One good example is that many people has already cannot get their money out from CPF. My guess is that the one that employs the maid will have to come up with the money one way or another.

I have a suggestion to create more jobs…

Singapore should end their monopolistic practice in a number of industries (all the government linked companies etc), allow more companies to come in and compete. With more companies, more jobs will be created as each company will require their own sales, marketing, finance, operations people.

I think the amount of profits which some GLC are making are too high.

Hi CJ #9

My purpose is to get Singaporeans to think about these issues and discuss them. I also carry out surveys to gauge the views of Singaporeans.

If many Singaporeans agree with the proposals, we can think about the next stage of bringing them up to the people in power, through various channels. Do not be discouraged that the leaders do not act on these suggestions now.

Mr Tan wrote: “Being largely unregulated, it has attracted large numbers of talented people to work in financial services that was creating false wealth. This system has now largely collapsed.”

As the wealth is FALSE, I wonder what else is FALSE ? This ILLUSIONAL WEALTH should also mean other information we were given or read could be FALSE?

This TEACHES us some serious lessons. We should learn to :

1. QUESTION Everything, where possible. The Truth can stand up to questioning. Questioning for the Truth will not cause a Truth to become a LIE .
The process of QUESTIONING Everything gives an assurance that the info we receive is indeed the Truth.

2. TRUST only when there is EVIDENCE or PROOF. Mini Bon Bon fiasco and fingers burnt. These singaporeans must not fall prey to Blind Trust anymore. They can still fall prey as long as they do not remind themselves daily of lessons learnt. Its a human weakness to become COMPLACENT and over-trusting-based-on-blind-faith. Prolly this is why we see financial fiascos every now and then. Greed is a weakness too. I wonder when the econ finally, eventually, who knows when, how many of these will fall prey again once they become complacent again? Never underestimate the weakness of humans.

The reliance on USA must not be so strong as it always has been since 40 years ago. Solution is required. But why worry? We got talent right? Not MEDIOCRE somemore leh.

More good years.

#9

Further to TKL’s comments.

There have been many things that govmin rubbished that then became govmin policy. But because ST was silent, most people forgot that govmin had rubbished it, before finally accepting it.

Examples

Building Changi Airport — when this was suggested rather than extending Paya Lebar — govmin said proponents were living in flight path of planes landing at Paya Lebar

Increased welfare (still a lot more can be done) — but remember it was only few yrs ago that govmin rubbished those who wanted more for poor.

Breeding for S’pore — there were people who in the 70s were saying family planning were going too far. Now it is Breed for S’pore, we give you $$$.

A prominent economist in the early 1990s was rubbished for saying that foreign workers were displacing and keeping wages down for uncles and aunties. Govmin workfare policies shows that govmin accepts his arguments.

Just heard this afternoon from employment agents that the government will not renew the employment passes of FTs once they come up for renewal after 2 years etc, they have to leave the counrty, can anyone verify this?
An about turn of employment policies on the quiet?

An interesting title but…. I think it is obviously to everyone that job creation is a priority now, regardless of how the jobs are labelled, unless one is earning First World salary already.

The first concern is that people are already in “Economic Recovery” jobs before during, and probably after, the recession. These are also known as “work so at least you don’t starve” jobs in a high cost society. The applicants are mostly elderly (35+), unemployed, lower educated, people on the fringe of society, etc. — tissue-selling assistants, cardboard collecting assistants, cleaner assistants, etc. If we didn’t have the will to address this issue during good times, why would we succeed now? To gain media coverage that “someone is doing something?”

The second concern is that the proposed concept is clearly to subsistence our citizens so that they continue to have some spending power, aka “… they can continue to spend according to their capacity.” Actually, should it read as they can be continued to be taxed, so that a bit here, a bit there would make up for the HUGH losses incurred in our national investments? There should be concurrent proposals to reduce the cost of living here to ‘…level the playing ground’.

The third concern is:

“…When the economy is able to generate better paying jobs, the workers can abandon these “economic recovery” jobs and move to the private sector jobs.”

Come on, this is a open license for employers to exploit such “temporary”workers. You think companies will give them a fair renumeration knowing that these employees have absolutely no motivation to do just the bare minimum? And is this the best use of our large pool of unemployed/skilled PMETs? It serves only to increase the GDP.

The only positive point in this article is the advocation of a min. wage. But again, we have not done that before, so why would we think it can be implemented now? If understand correct, TKL was previously in NTUC – that would be a great opportunity to push for min. wages then. Again, understand most First World countries have min.working conditions in force; do we need another 50 years for this to happen? (On this point, no ill intent to TKL).

Does anyone find it insulting that the jobs we can suggest in a First World state are thngs like newspaper delivery “assistants”? Last week our Health Minister beamingly mentioned $25m used to build 3 new nursing homes. Considering the $100’s BILLIONS diverted for investments, what is the percentage of GDP/reserves for infrastructure developments?

Would like to see our esteemed scholars, MPs & civil servants take the lead in job creation. It is mentioned that scholars/MPs, etc are no entrepreneurs; yet it is advocating the man-on-the-street (regardless of skill level) should take the plunge into different skill set areas. Recommend a bitter pill but not swallow it themselves? If the $60b losses of TH was channelled into seed money for local startups, say $5-10m each, there could be 6,000-12,000 such startups. Say each headed by a scholar, top civil servant, etc, and employing 5-10 skilled workers — 30,000 to 120,000 employment. No supporting expertise for such startups? No problems – spinoff complementary industries like finanical, logistics, marketing, HR/staffing etc. by other scholars/civil servants with “experience/expertise”. This snowballs the initiative. Maybe even pooled such expertise under one umbrella, etc. You think, with 1000’s startups and not 10-50 will succeed into local MNCs? Maybe we need to wait another 50 years…

23) A Tan on June 17th, 2009 3.55 pm #9

////////Further to TKL’s comments.

There have been many things that govmin rubbished that then became govmin policy. But because ST was silent, most people forgot that govmin had rubbished it, before finally accepting it.
////////

Regardless, we need to constantly provide credible criticisms on the MSM to keep them on their toes to provide better information to the People.

For instance, IF a news report ‘forgot’ to mention the Alternative Aspects of the same ‘coin’, we should talk about it and share with the people what Alternative views we have. Nothing is perfect, there is always some weakness or bad aspects and if not covered , some readers may not know the other side of the ‘coin’ so to speak.

Trying to keep everyone on the island is in itself a problem. Singapore has good relations with so many first world nations and SIngaporeans can easily travel to and work in many of these nations. Why hasn’t the government worked on developing a diaspora?

Instead of labelling people as quitters, they should try and encourage more people to seek opportunities worldwide. Perhaps they can start with sponsoring Singaporean students for higher studies overseas.

I agree with: 19) Dumb and dumber.

It seems they are looking only for solutions that doesn’t hurt the status quo of filling the govt coffers. Take GST — steep increase of 40% justified then as necessary for “infrastructure works”. How many public works we see to date that exceed the sum of GIC/TH investments? Times are bad, so logically GST can be reduce to put more money in people pockets so that they can spend to roll the economy. So simple to increase, should be simple to decrease, right?

Sure, solutions are being solicited here. This is positive thinking. But we should be pragmatic about this — for every useful idea from the masses, let’s see 1-2 ideas from our highly esteemed leaders. So far, what huh?

To 9# CJ

I fully agree with you. When you have a govt who locked themselves with this quote “it does not make business sense…to do this or do that” even for the sake of Singaporeans, you will never have a receptive govt even when you present them with god-send solutions. The shallowness of this leader will only be awkened when Singapore has sank 5 yards below ground. They have ruled us for many years, we have seen them, known them and even tasted the bitterness of their unfair policies. What do we not know about them to believe they can still give us hope let alone receive us and our suggestions? Has minibonds saga not good enough to bring back those bitter memories? I wish I can contribute good solution but behind it, you will have your leaders or employers mocking at it. What for? it is purely business, nothing personal as in quoted by Mr Trump.

Look at our education system. We had been proud of it and thought that it is one of the best in the world. However, do we do enough auditing jobs on it. i doubted so. it is because after getting so much education and spended tons of our resources on it we still have these conditions:
1) Low birth rate
2)no minimum wages
3) High exploitation rate by Landlord and employer
4) mismatch jobs

TO: ‘ACACIA on June 17th, 2009 4.35 pm
Just heard this afternoon from employment agents that the government will not renew the employment passes of FTs once they come up for renewal after 2 years etc, they have to leave the counrty, can anyone verify this?
An about turn of employment policies on the quiet?’

I can answer to this. The move will
(1) pressure the FTs who have a stake here or who are living on comfy salaries to become citizens of singapore rather than sitting on the fence! Smart!
(2) once converted, these converts will also vote for the PAP regime as they would be ever grateful to the regime.
Thus, many good reasons for the PAP regime but none for the true blues of singapore, esp those who serve NS to defend this country to the last!

By the way, if this move were done out of genuine concern for true blues, I say it came too late – I am now out of Singapore in a western uni; ntu prefer FTs.

30) a singaporean in foreign land

///By the way, if this move were done out of genuine concern for true blues, I say it came too late – I am now out of Singapore in a western uni; ntu prefer FTs.///

Yes it came too late for you.

23) A Tan

///Examples
Building Changi Airport — when this was suggested rather than extending Paya Lebar — govmin said proponents were living in flight path of planes landing at Paya Lebar///

Was that a bad thing to do?

A word about the lack of local talent.
I went for a job interview a week ago with a watered-down resume as the job which although requires a certain amount of project experience is a junior position.
From the communictions going around the adminstration office while waiting to be interviewed, I was make aware that a good portion of the staff there are from China.
Following up on that interview today, I was told by the HR person whom I met that they have selected someone else for the position.
I decided to push her for the reason for my failure to make the selection, by saying that her feedback is valuable to me.
Her reply was “your experience”. On further prompting she hesitantly volunteered the information that I may have more experiences than the manager that the position reports to, and he commented that he will not be able to “control” me.
Could this “control” factor be a key reason that managers here prefer FT over locals?

7) Tan Kin Lian
///SMRT can afford to engage more people to direct the commuters in the train stations. This is used in the advanced countries. It creates jobs and serve purpose. It makes life more pleasant, although it reduces the profit of SMRT or add slightly to the travelling cost//

If it adds slightly, it is ok, otherwise you will get more complaints for price hikes.

Just like to share a company I came across.
It offers ‘workforce development’ programs.
I checked and here the findings:
1. you pay them thousands for training .
2. they try to field you some work but no guarantees.
3. non CITREP. no subsidy.
4. headquartered somewhere near the indian ocean and usa.

At the end of the training, a person is still a greenhorn with at best exercise scenario (not real job) experience.

There appears to be a chance for job. But the risk is for you to bear.

regards
mini bon bon – never learns

by the way, to add to point 1, training is only around slightly more than 50 hours. thousands is an amount under 10K sing dollars.

A lot of training schools are ‘helping’ the jobless. The market is now having the most unemployed not seen in a long time. Supply + Demand = Business opportunity. 1 student = thousands earned for some hours of training. multiply this by the hundreds = millionaire.

Can anyone here please verify whether SMRT has recruited foreigners over Singaporeans? I can confirm Singapore bus service has recruited many china drivers. If this is seen as a trend, please forget this Singapore govt will help the local people. Anyway another liar in today news said Job credit scheme and 20bil has helped many Singaporean. They are hoping to consolidate 20 lies to make a truth. Simply amazing!

Can new citizens vote immediately once they get the cert?
If so, and if they choose to live in a particular town, what happens?
If there is critical mass of these incoming, what happens?
There are even new citizens who are grassroots leaders liao.

Dear Mr. Tan Kin Lian,

I respect and concur with your views. And thanks for this post which has allowed many to express alternative ideas to those institutionalised by our Govt. I just wish that our govt has taken the initiative to organise a public forum or to solicit such a wide array of opinions in contrast to the limited scope that JCS or SPURR can offer.

As for govt spending, I am always extremely baffled by why there is so limited spending or investment in local SMEs. Are our govt having more faith in overseas companies than those grown within our very own soil ? Not to add to the ad nauseum, the $58B lost could have been at least partially invested in local companies. And even if these investments result in negative returns, then at least the money is lost within our local business community, as compared to negative returns overseas.

Other than the numerous business loan packages as touted by our govt, there should be some form of direct liquidity injection into the pool of SMEs, of which many are struggling to stay afloat (no pun intended). The rippling effect of the survivial rate of SMEs can be tremendous, as they employed the bulk of the workforce. I am monitoring very closely what our govt is intending to do to raise the viability of the SMEs, as I intend to start my own company after I graduate from NTU next year. It will have a direct impact on whom I should cast my vote too.

29) 30) Well said and expressed, we know this all the while.
It will catch up with them sooner or later. Let’s hope its sooner.

who say got no “Economic Recovery” jobs? they are in retail, service & security line loh.

official line already say liao “dun be choosey” + “moderate your expectation”. well, let those who say that work for 3 months loh.

reality is that with most companies struggling to survive, few can take in more without compromising staff morale by adding work related stress if the extra hands are viewed as competition.

i dun agree stimulus spending is not enough. the likely issue is the stimulus is administered wrongly.

when hungry- eat, when thirsty- drink. dun need very smart brains to figure that out. lol…

Generally, I see that Singapore has already met its economic peak years ago. With no technology innovation, natural resources, etc. the only way to see growth is to pump more population into Singapore.
Growth at all cost is already affecting our daily spending and life style. Large influx of foreigners brings in their living habits which makes common people like me feels very uncomfortable. Worse of all, it brings down wages directly and indirectly.
Currently, it is the down side of the business cycle. Unemployment rate is high.
We have Job Credit Scheme that seems to me of just throwing money into the drain. It does not effectively help Singaporeans. It is just merely increasing companies’ profit or prevents companies to go bust. It is not necessary that the company would want to have an extra head count when there is no demand. In the end, this whole issue has shown me that the gahman is weak in affecting the decision on who to be employed by the employer. The gahman still leave the decision of employment to the employer. This is not the kind of gahman that I want (base on the reason that I still need to serve NS and the right to be a Singaporean).

The most effective way to create job for Singaporeans is to create a form of TESTING or some kind of rating to companies (and make known to the people) who want to employ foreigners or make foreigners more expensive to be employed by taxing the company heavily (I am saying creating jobs by taking away jobs and give them to the locals), else high proportion of “Economic Recovery” jobs will still be given to the foreigners. Most Singaporeans may not feel any benefit but worse off from the recovery (i.e. inflation).

The gahman all the while making me feel that (via media) …only in certain areas… foreign employment. From what I see this is not true. I feel giving a false image is not the way to gain trust.

Although it is thankful that there are signs of “goodwill” from the gahman, I personally still feel the signal of “you die your problem, growth at all cost” and ”you have a duty to serve the nation while the nation does not owe you anything” still strong. If Singaporeans do not feel a strong sense of belonging, I strongly feel the new “Singaporeans” will never ever feel that.

Like my father, I will tell my children my story of Singapore and not what it’s reflected on the paper.

“economic recovery” job have what. in security, retail & service line loh…

Someone asked me, why did I not fight for minimum wage, when I was working in NTUC?

This statement is not correct. I worked for NTUC Income and runned an insurance company (and not the NTUC which was involved in worker’s conditions).

The NTUC has been against minimum wage (as they support the PAP’s policy). The argument was that a minimum wage would chase away jobs from Singapore – which I disgagree. As I was working in the NTUC group, it was not proper for me to voice a different opinion at that time.

Now that I am retired from the NTUC group, I am now able to express my views on these issues. Anyway, my aim is to give an honest opinion on what is good for the people of Singapore, and not to play politics.

Similarly, I ask for people to express their views without being personal.

The key focus on my proposal is:

1. Give every citizen the security that they can always get a job at the minimum wage (or better), if they are willing to put in a day’s work
2. The public sector will offer these jobs as the last resort – to be funded by taxation
3. They can get a better paying job in the private sector, if this is available

If people know that they have job security, they are able to live their daily life and survive financially without stress, even though it may be at a modest salary. They may be poor, but at least secure. They can budget their normal expenditure, according to their means, and do not need to cut back to the bare bones.

This will allow the economy to move along at its current level, instead of contracting further.

#9
——–
Oh please… you people think THEY will listen to ground sentiments???

Focus your energy on replacing this government better…

——-
More on the power of the people — And this in China where 20 yrs ago troops were brought in to suppress protestors.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/17/world/asia/17china.html?ref=asia

—

So TKL’s comments #21 is not just wishy washy BS

Hi CJ #9

My purpose is to get Singaporeans to think about these issues and discuss them. I also carry out surveys to gauge the views of Singaporeans.

If many Singaporeans agree with the proposals, we can think about the next stage of bringing them up to the people in power, through various channels. Do not be discouraged that the leaders do not act on these suggestions now.

TKL

“Now that I am retired from the NTUC group, I am now able to express my views on these issues. ”

A reasonable extrapolation of the above, is that you think it is OK to keep quiet on issues that a person feels strongly on, until the person is no longer in danger of losing a job or a benefit?

While very pragmatic (I’d do the same I cheerfully admit), doesn’t that contradict yr view that S’poreans should speak up? Remember yr story quoting the Nazis and Jews.

By that reasoning, the story teller should have waited until he retired. What if the Nazis had come for him before he retired?

Or are you saying that many issues can wait until retirement etc because it is impt more to make a living, gain benefits etc. This is a perfectly legit statement
because most people got to work to live.

46) A Tan on June 18th, 2009 8.06 am

While I am a fan of TKL, A Tan has a point there, in my view.
Its good to have such discussions. The more we discuss about the Root Problems, the closer we get to the Truth.

Can we handle it?

RiceBowl = individual interest
Country = national interest

That is why its called ‘A Few’ goodmen who are few and far between.

MrTan,

I know that you now will say that I have an agenda against you but I dont as I dont agree with whatever you say.

. I share the views by A Tan that if you have so many “brilliant” ideas while in NTUC, why did you not raise them?

Are you saying that while you were in NTUC, you were not allowed to bring up any ideas and it would seem to sugegst from your reply that it was policy not to speak up at NTUC Income? It also seem to suggest that you did not wish to rock the boat as it affected your career. Please let the whole of Singapore how many polices did you implement that benefitted the workers that were different from the policies implemented by the government?

How is it that once you left NTUC, you have many ideas about how to make Singapore better? Why is it that only now you feel that Singapore policies are not good enough and have no care and concern for the man on the street?

Why do you advocate that Singaporeans should speak up when you chose to remian silent while being the CEO of NTUC Income?

Please dont preach something that you have not practised.

Many people know that i have expressed my views on matters of public interest in the media for the past 20 years. i wrote on many occasions on the burden to our males doing National Service. The government leaders did not like my views at that time.

The issue of low wages became a serious problem only in recent years, due to the influx of foreign workers. Previously, it was not that bad.

Even today, there are many Singaporeans who disagree with the need for a minimum wage. So, there is no need for anyone to take this issue to attack me personally, while remaining anonymous..

Anyway, I usually do not wish to defend my views against anonymous attacks. Some of them have a personal agenda against me, even though they claim that they do not, as they can always lie while remaining anonymous.

kongseeme,
You are not giving an opinion on this issue raised. If you have your own set of views and values, share it. Show us that you are better.
I would have agreed with you if you start making a louder, better and constructive noise now then starting to discredit others.

Is it true that Public Servants are not allowed to comment on political issues in public? Or something like that? I need someone to confirm for me. Would appreciate it, Thanks.

I like to say that Mr Tan Kin Lian is a Role model for all retirees as well as public servants in terms of doing something for the community where people like him is few and far between.

Better late then never.

It is worth supporting and encouraging people to step forward.

There is no shortage of talents per se. See, so many have joined PAP.
The issue is these did not choose to join Opposition to balance the situation for the benefit of ALL and not just people like Kongseeme. this nation belongs to All citizens. Even more are not daring enough to step forward.

Walkovers are not due to talent shortage as much as these talents are not willing to balance the situation by stepping forward. To be fair, there are valid reasons that discourage them. this is why, it is a problem that can only be solved by Collective Effort.

37) David on June 17th, 2009 11.26 pm
“”"”Can anyone here please verify whether SMRT has recruited foreigners over Singaporeans? I can confirm Singapore bus service has recruited many china drivers. If this is seen as a trend, please forget this Singapore govt will help the local people. Anyway another liar in today news said Job credit scheme and 20bil has helped many Singaporean. They are hoping to consolidate 20 lies to make a truth. Simply amazing!”"”"

1. Many True Blooded Singaporeans are hiring many foreigners already. Its called Business. Which singapore company has not hired many foreigners?

2. Pro Business Policies enabled the hiring of numerous foreigners.

3. The more foreigners in the market, I suspect, the wage could be lowered by market forces.

4. Will cost of living go down when it is already hiked?

5. Its not wrong from a business perspective to lower cost.

6. But what solution to protect citizens is another issue.

7. If I were an employer , to choose between a singaporean fresh grad and a foreigner experienced talent , for same cost or lower, why would i not choose a foreigner?

8. But I wonder why European companies not hire more foreigners? Why are europeans paid much higher AND protected more? Boleh tak boleh?

9. Job Statistics consists of PRs as part of the calculation. The more PRs there are and employed, the better the rate can appear. Likewise, vice versa.

A. Statistics compilation and sources of info and who compiles the data.

Waiting for Light at the end of the tunnel, when T-Rex is extinct.

Hi Mr. TKL,

I am one of the 1400+ that signed the online petition, but I would like to clarify that although I don’t always agree with your views; nonetheless, I believe you are truly trying to help.

When I was studying in Australia, I learned on lesson which benefits me till today; that’s life is multi-facet.

While you may think that some of the people might be trying to “attack” you; I believe the reverse is true. Like me, I believe they are finding signs and symptoms that you are “truly” one of the many leaders singapore will need. To help singapore, it’s not only about “intention” to serve, “capability”, “conviction”, “perseverance” and many other values are required to lead the country out of the current “mess” we are in.

Remember the phrase that “the past will come back to haunt you”. In my opinion, PAP’s rule of toeing the party line, unfortunately, has come back to haunt you in this case. Don’t fret, we don’t always win and we aren’t always right; although most of the time we think we are, but to be proven that we are wrong at a later time.

Nonetheless, I can tell, to date, that you truly have the intention to help “singaporeans” within your means. So does MM during the early days of singapore. Why would I say that? Cos action spoke volume.

In my opinion, if you are preparing yourself for President or the General Election, just treat this as the “baptism of fire” that you have to go through. In my opinion, the current “PAP” MPs missed the important part of their political trial due to the GRC systems; a double-edge sword. Yes, PAP win the election, but it costs them their popularity as the GRC system selection criteria is different from that of the SMC.

Hence, I implore you to look through the “attacks” and look beneath the concerns/doubts raised.

@43) Tan Kin Lian, 46) A Tan, 47) Concerned non-typical citizen, 48) kongseeme.

Mr Tan,

Many people like myself have not worked in the public sector, but there is definitely a ground feeling that civil servants have a “mentality problem” – you can’t deny this, right? Whether this mean sticking to the party line or not rocking the boat on issues concerning other depts (known as “not taken responsibility” in the private sector) is too extensive a topic for discussion here. So, there is no personal agenda.

What is hoped is that someone, maybe like yourself, share their experience on how the decision to NOT have a min. salary can prevailed for 50 years in a First World country. As someone mentioned, the Root Causes. Then you can talk with some authority on how there is a chance to change the status quo. If the deliberate lack of min. working conditions is strategy to attract FI into our economy, then we know we are wasting our time. Do educate us.

On one point, however, I hope you can further verify:

<>

Who are the “many Singaporeans”? Govt and employers (oh yeah, also NTUC Union)? 2 out of 3 in our esteemed Triparitie system sure makes the majority vote. Walkover, man!

#53

Couldn’t have put it better. Like you and #47, I think that TKL has some sensible ideas. And I have no issues with him raising these after retirement. As #51 said: Better late then never. Anyway let’s be pragmatic: there is a time for everything.

The problem is that TKL (whether intentional or not) comes across as someone who thinks he has the moral authority to lecture S’poreans on the courage to speak out

Only the late JBJ, and Dr Chee have the moral authority to lecture S’poreans on the courage to speak out. No-one else has this authority. They have this authority because they have suffered for their willingness to speak out.

I think what they say is BS (best friends the PAP ever had), but that is another issue. It does not detract from their courage, and authority.

I remember many years back when I was working in China. China has too many unemployment at that time. The local administrator decided to employ these locals in jobs such as traffic warden (guiding people at pedestrian crossing to ensure smooth traffic condiions), etc. These are senior citizens with a whistle blowing in their mouth doing their part to help the congestion problems. Same here in Singapore, there are so many jobs that can be created part time for Singaporeans. Do we need jobs of car park attendents or wardens to be awarded again to privatised GLC? Can the government authority such as URA and HDB take back all these jobs and provide to the unemployed? Suggestions mentioned in this forum such as MRT train ushers, hospital care asistants, bus interchange ushers, traffic pedestrain crossing usher preventing cyclist from dashing across pedestrian crossing, etc are numerous works that the govt can initiate. These senior citizens can and will ensure the younger generation citizens will listen to their orders. We have courtesy campaign, jay-walking campign, spitting campaign, etc. How much money has been spent on advertisement? Have they improve? having said all these, will these affect the goverment coffers? Yes , OF COURSE! So why would they want to accept our suggestions? They are prepared to put money into upgrading HDB saying that our living environment will improve and property value rises, but is this not wastages! Is this not pump priming the property sector and make everything expensive? The thinking of the govt is always how to make more money from us. Our cost of living has risen too fast and too high.

hi Tan Kin Lian,

please do not take negative comments too personally. this forum is a good platform to discuss, improve ideas. how often are ideas so perfect it draws no criticism?

i also think the posters here are largely a critical (thinking) lot, me included. it is a result of social conditioning, all the better for a nation maturing from infancy. the alternative of a nation with a population of people who accepts things blindly doesn’t bode well.

////Many people know that i have expressed my views on matters of public interest in the media for the past 20 years. i wrote on many occasions on the burden to our males doing National Service.////
from post #49, on June 18th, 2009 10.00 am

eh, there is a disconnect here. how to convince others who are not the many people? & the people may also know many more people who may have not know about you expressing alternative views you claim to have made over the decades.

////Anyway, I usually do not wish to defend my views against anonymous attacks. Some of them have a personal agenda against me, even though they claim that they do not, as they can always lie while remaining anonymous.////

eh, keeping mum is not the way froward leh, lessons from Aware Saga & numerous reports of our country’s financial losses from overseas sources should be enough to learn from. also, why the mindset that comments not in line with you = attack? eh, online forum where got everyone know everybody else? this is what online is about, promoting interaction among people who we would normally not.

so how must attach most recent photo?

Many appears to be Waiting for the ‘right timing’ to ’step forward’. kekeke
I wonder if people only could step forward when the ‘coast is clear’ (kekekeke)
what sort of leadership could we expect ?

What happens when another ‘they are mediocre’ pops up in future?
Could these talents stand up to the challenge and fight?

Yes, ‘better late then never’ and I would add its now or never.

They have not seen. They have not tasted. They have not experienced.

Its wiser to have a balanced or comparable Ying and Yang.

hi Tan Kin Lian,

post #43, on June 18th, 2009 7.31 am
////As I was working in the NTUC group, it was not proper for me to voice a different opinion at that time.////

so in future, anyone under you, its also not proper to voice a different opinion?

o.O

49) kongseeme

//MrTan, I know that you now will say that I have an agenda against you but I dont as I dont agree with whatever you say.//

I think you manged to contradict yourself. If you don’t have an agenda why do you see a veritable need to disagree with whatever TKL says, regardless?

// I share the views by A Tan that if you have so many “brilliant” ideas while in NTUC, why did you not raise them? //

In case you missed his explanation this was what he wrote in the “Animal Farm” thread, quote :

“During the first 25 years of independence, the PAP was a party of the people. Many people, including me, were proud to be Singaporeans and to be involved in the process of building up a nation. The PAP changed around 1985. That was the time that the focus was on elitism, graduate mothers, etc. There was a departure from equality and the good of the common people. Things got worse over the years. Later, there was the focus on “foreign talents”. While I was employed in NTUC Income, it was not possible for me to take a public position on this matter. But many of our leaders know my private views on this matter.”

That was being prudent as there is a saying that people who live in glass houses should never throw stones.

The culture in Singapore is also such that there are no laws to protect the whistle-blower unlike in the UK which has the “Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998 which provides a framework of legal protection for individuals who disclose information of similar concern. It protects whistle-blowers from victimization and dismissal.”

Even the Singaporean author Catherine Lim was excoriated publicly when she wrote to the ST Forum on 3 Sept 1994 a letter entitled “The PAP and the People-A Great Affective Divide.

She opined that “that while Singaporeans respected the PAP’s efficiency and were grateful towards it for bringing Singapore economic success, they lacked any real affection or warmth for the political party.”

This caused the “empire to strike back”. She was asked to “take responsibility for her views and to enter politics if she wished to continuing airing them”.

An OB marker was also put in place all for future commentators.

Even President Eisenhower waited till he left office before he exposed the dangers of the US Military-Industrial-Complex as he could not do so whilst he was still the Commander-in-Chief.

Therefore, there is a time and place for everything and now that TKL is aspiring to enter the political arena he feels it is appropriate for him to make a mission statement. That to me is the mark of a courageous gentleman which is a rare specie in Singapore nowadays.

errata : “I think you managed to contradict yourself. If you don’t have an agenda why do you see a veritable need to disagree with whatever TKL says, regardless?”

To: 58) Mahbubanu Gani – good at children story telling

Your “kekeke” sounds cynical in case you don’t realise.

Many appears to be Waiting for the ‘right timing’ to ’step forward’. kekeke
>> To do anything, the basic needs must be taken care of; and different individual basic needs are different. In my opinion, to step forward as an “alternative” voice is already a big “step” under the current social-political climate.

I wonder if people only could step forward when the ‘coast is clear’ (kekekeke)
>> The coast is not clear for the opposition, in case you’re not aware. The coast is only clear for PAP.

what sort of leadership could we expect ?
>> Valid question, but have you given him the time and opportunity to prove to you? Or you write him off the first mistake you can find. Look at PAP, how many “unpopular” policies they have implemented. Care to name one PAP MP you “voted” or “admire” using your criteria.

The past is telltale sign of what the future will be, it does not guarantee what the future will become because being human, we have a choice to decide/influence the outcome.

Moreover, an ex-convict, truly repentant, will have better morality and integrity than most people.

59) Mahbubanu Gani – good at children story telling on June 18th, 2009 2.51 pm

//Many appears to be Waiting for the ‘right timing’ to ’step forward’. kekeke
I wonder if people only could step forward when the ‘coast is clear’ (kekekeke)
what sort of leadership could we expect ?//

In the “Art of War”, Sun Tze once said that ” Good generals put themselves BEYOND the possibility of defeat first and then wait for an opportunity to defeat the enemy.”

IMHO, that is what TKL is doing or ought to be doing before he enters the fray to take on the awesome electoral machinery of the “empire”.

//Yes, ‘better late then never’ and I would add its now or never.//

You are right here.

Some people think that they can attack an idea by attacking a person. There is no need for this approach. Let us focus on the idea. If you disagree with the idea, give another idea and your reason.

Hi forties
Thank you for your excellent contribution ( #56)

The leaders in China are practical and they do things that benefit the people at large. Creating low paying jobs to keep many people employed is a great idea. You have given many excellent examples, which I agree with.

In the late 80s, I visited China and met a deputy Prime Minister. What he said impressed me a lot. He said that the biggest challenge facing the leadership of China is how to create jobs for the many people who were employed in state enterprises that had excess workers and had to be retrenched. China managed to solve this problem successfully, by expanding its export sector.

With the collapse of global demand, China is now focusing on expanding its domestic sector. I believe that their approach is likely to succeed. They follow policies that are more suited to the conditions, rather than some blind management theory.

I agree with your observation that the leaders in Singapore spent too much money on hardware and software and make things too expensive in Singapore. It is better that the money be spent to creat jobs to keep people usefully occupied, according to their ability.

Hi Monopoly #20

I agree with your suggestion in #20. There are advantages in letting many small businesses thrive, rather than be pushed out by the big companies. In USA, they have anti-trust and other agencies to protect the small businesses. It contributed to the democratisation of the market place, rather than to have a few large players that dominate the market.

Hi #54 theforgottongeneration

You said

What is hoped is that someone, maybe like yourself, share their experience on how the decision to NOT have a min. salary can prevailed for 50 years in a First World country. As someone mentioned, the Root Causes. Then you can talk with some authority on how there is a chance to change the status quo. If the deliberate lack of min. working conditions is strategy to attract FI into our economy, then we know we are wasting our time. Do educate us.

The argument against the minimum wage was put forward by our government leaders for 25 years. They said that a minimum wage will drive jobs to other low cost countries. Nobody was willing to even discuss the merits of minimum wage with an open mind. I believe that this is the thinking of one man, and nobody dare to hold a different view – even in private.

Many Singaporeans (who had jobs) were convinced that the wages should be left to the free market. Once they lose their jobs and had to take a low paying job, they will hold a different view. This is Singapore. How sad!

An artificial job creation by the Government will lead to higher expenses which they will have a big problem to balance the budget or minimize digging into the reserves. In fact I think the Government has said (At least they claim) that they are increasing a large number of teachers, police and nurses and they are extending the retirement age of SAF officers, etc. They are creating the “economic recovery” jobs.

The problem I understand with this is that a lot of “new” citizens are vying for these limited jobs.

Hi SotongBall #68

I agree that the Government is creating some of these “economic recovery” jobs. But they can do more. There are many unemployed people. We need all workers to feel secure that they can get a job, at least at minimum wage.

hi Tan Kin Lian, on June 18th, 2009 5.52 pm

////Many Singaporeans (who had jobs) were convinced that the wages should be left to the free market. Once they lose their jobs and had to take a low paying job, they will hold a different view. This is Singapore. How sad!////

this is so true, lots of selfish individuals who do not see beyond their own needs. the lack of empathy maybe?

@41) tiredman,

We got our NS concept from the Israelis, they are damned good soldiers. Too bad we pick and choose what to adopt… I hope you tell your kids to NEVER leave a man behind.

Recall: we pump millions & resources into getting an Olympic silver medal, aka using FTs. No problems, we should be proud – first world country should have first world achievements. However, in the immediate years to that silver, a Singaporean with only $12 left in his wallet jumped in front of an MRT train. He was one of the “unfortunates” that fell through the layers of our welfare system… Per sec, no accountability from the authorities — every welfare dept pointing to another dept that his case was their responsibility. Perhaps a couple of hundreds bucks off the useless STTA president’s MP salary per month ($14K?) into this man account could save him & grief to his family. Anyway, move on…. we were talking “Economic Recovery” jobs in current recession, right?

@67) Tan Kin Lian,

Thks for the info. Then we ARE wasting out time talking about having a min. wage system. So too for every other issue Singaporeans would care to bring up since there is no recourse if it doesn’t fit the ‘official’ stand.

I then further agree with a couple of folks here (& yourself) that this is indeed sad for Singapore. Thousands in the public sector, great and small, but none dare to stand up for something affecting the people’s rice bowl.

Now it is confirmed why many Singaporeans are jumping ship and that our fertility rate is so low — I wouldn’t want my children to serve NS and then not guarantee even a fair wage when they start working. Maybe they even have to cut their asking salary to out-bid the FTs.

Move on… we have BIGGER problems than just Economic Recovery jobs.

72) theforgottongeneration
Issues are interlinked… right?
“…we were talking “Economic Recovery” jobs in current recession, right?”

There will always be an economic recovery and jobs can be recreated. Like I have said, we are not guaranteed if the employer is going to employ a local. Would the job be given to a foreigner instead?

I don’t see how gahman can effectively influence the decision. What had happen during the good time can happen again. How much can I trust the gahman? The problem is I feel I am a foreigner living in the space I breathe in for the past 27 years. The only different is that I have to serve.

I have seen on just one case happened to one of my family members and seen and hear many other stories of employers exploiting the elderly and the lowly skilled workers. I have no confident with this gahman. Most of the news in the papers is rubbish. The only section readable is international news. However, I am glad while suspicious, that in gahman statistic, low income worker wage is on the rise.

If there are no changes to the current situation in the coming years, or/and I still feel insecure and I can be easily replaced by a foreigner, I have left with no choice but make early decision and perhaps to take my parent and my children (if I have one in future) and leave when opportunities arises. Just like what SAM has said in his blog:

Quote
“I will also not give you son(s) if I had children; you can go “buy” other children, and defend what’s yours.”

However, I hate to leave but trust is just not an one sided issue. I hope there is a change. If not loyalty just cannot fill my stomach. Isn’t it true?

64) Tan Kin Lian on June 18th, 2009 5.24 pm
“”"Some people think that they can attack an idea by attacking a person. There is no need for this approach. Let us focus on the idea. If you disagree with the idea, give another idea and your reason.”"”

Bravo! Mr Tan. :)
One good deed deserves another, so to speak.
What i mean is, there are some people who would use this technique of asking the other party to give a better solution when someone dissent against him or his views.
I am sure like this many would not attack as often. One good technique can be re-used in the opposite direction.
hahahaha.

Hi PMETee #74

It is quite easy to propose an alternative strategy. I do it all the time. I do not need to attack any person, or to pass my judgement on any idea. I just aruge for an alternative solution.

For example, the Government has been saying that a minimum wage will force jobs to go overseas. I point out that there are many service jobs that must be done in Singapore and cannot go overeas. We only need to be wililng to pay a higher price for these services, so that the workers can enjoy a more decent wage.

Some people then argue that this will increase the cost of living in Singapore. I hold a different view. The cost of living can be kept affordable, if rental and property prices, shareholder profits and management salaires are kept at a reasonable level (instead of being allowed to be maximised).

I do not have to pass judgement on othe rpeople’s ideas or attack any person for what they believe it. I hope that commentors can observe the same courtesy and fairness to other commentors.

I hope that

i would like a reply to post #57, on June 18th, 2009 2.41 pm

i raised some points leh. not 1st time kenna stonewalled. :(

75) Tan Kin Lian

//I do not have to pass judgement on othe rpeople’s ideas or attack any person for what they believe it. I hope that commentors can observe the same courtesy and fairness to other commentors///

Words of wisdom.

76) mice is nice

I am sidetracking, (lookl like it getting to be my trademark : ) )

On the subject of stonewalling, You may have observed that I am now stone walling some posters who have been resorting to personal and charactor attacks with mutiple nicks.

Quite silly really for one anonymous bloke to be attacking onother anonymous bloke’s charactor when nobody knows nobody.

It is my personal choice to stonewall these posters so as not to give these posters the attention they are craving for. I want to engage in constructive and useful debate.

75) Tan Kin Lian on June 18th, 2009 10.56 pm

“”Hi PMETee #74

It is quite easy to propose an alternative strategy. I do it all the time. “”

Agree. Consultants would know that for any problem, there are numerous ways and solutions that can work. Sometimes, trial-n-error may even reap great dividends. And thus, I am confident there is Room for an Alternate Team, at least 1. There is no such thing as the best solution. Current solution can always become inadequate over time if not already not the right solution. Change is the only constant.

“”"For example, the Government has been saying that a minimum wage will force jobs to go overseas. I point out that there are many service jobs that must be done in Singapore and cannot go overeas. We only need to be wililng to pay a higher price for these services, so that the workers can enjoy a more decent wage.”"

Agree. We have min wage already , unofficially speaking, and that is certain jobs minimumly is paid 1 million a month and this has not been said to be bad but good. So, unofficially, based on my observation, there is already a min wage in place but at the opposite end of the spectrum.

Also, agree that pay more can lead to better service. Certain jobs already are said to be reaping dividends by paying a min wage of 1 million a month.
The key is to implement it in a way to KEEP THESE min wage workers (not proper to say Servants) ON THEIR TOES. So, it is effectively enforceable solution based on this Condition.

And that is my 1.01 cents.

Some people then argue that this will increase the cost of living in Singapore. I hold a different view. The cost of living can be kept affordable, if rental and property prices, shareholder profits and management salaires are kept at a reasonable level (instead of being allowed to be maximised).

Errata: please ignore the last para which is from our Mr TKL.

hi KopitiamApek,

if i did resort to personal or charactor attacks then different story lah, but as for my post #57, on June 18th, 2009 2.41 pm. is there any?

your opinion,
////Quite silly really for one anonymous bloke to be attacking onother anonymous bloke’s charactor when nobody knows nobody.////
quite true, except that Mr Tan Kin Lian is a rather well known figure after speaking up in People’s Corner some months back.

maybe when i pointed out something less than flattering in the following article….
http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/05/job-satisfaction-inadequate-measures-to-protect-workers/
post #74) mice is nice on June 7th, 2009 12.21 am.

…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

when differences in opinion on a subject is viewed as a personal attack, that is a cause for concern. there are many examples in TOC alone, it does take too much effort to search.

somewhere in TOC i mentioned before, humans attachment tothings. therefore some see it as a personal attack? not that there is no such thing, just how it can be defined conveniently to avoid a topic sometimes.

There has been a lot of talk about Minimum wage; did anyone suggest how much should it be? $800, $1000, $1200?

My Foreign Talent foot massager from China earns $800 per month. Setting minimum wage to a $1000, means this FT worker makes $200 more per month? Or the employer will prefer to hire a Singaporean for the same pay? My bet is that the FT gets paid $200 more. How do we ensure that a viable minimum wage scheme without controlling influx of FT who become new citizens?

With the Government pushing for a 6.5million population and then10million population; with no protection for “native Singaporean” jobs, a minimum wage system will not work at all.

#9 and other sceptics of TKL’s approach of getting people to raise their views

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8106526.stm

China again gives way because its people object.

Suppose 100,000 economic recovery jobs are created paying a minimum wage of $6 per hour (or $1,000 per month), the annual cost to the nation is slightly more than $1 billion. This is small, compared to the money spent on the stimulus package introduced earlier this year or the money lost on the bad investments in global banks.

The $1 billion spent in the economy by 100,000 families will create additional demand for small businesses and other services. A large part of it will be spend in the domestic economy, instead of leaking overseas.

More importantly, it will give the confidence to 100,000 people that they have the security of a job. Other unemployed people will also feel that there is a safety net, even if they should lose their job.

More importantly

Mr Tan, I respect your views and applaud your contributions. No doubt that the money lost on bad investments could be put to better use as you suggest.

I personally do not oppose the minimum wage scheme if there is a way to ensure that native Singaporeans get the better end of the stick. But we have to also be mindful that business costs will surely increase.

I do not think that creating jobs artificially will be good in the long run as it is a huge burden on the nation. As it is, I believe there are already many redundancies in the civil service. However if this is a two – three year thing, I think it serves the purpose as you suggests. The Government did implement (in a smaller scale) a scheme (with some acronym I cant remember) that supports fresh local graduates entering the job market this year with a stipend of $1k+ to 2k. Companies have an option of topping up a little on the pay and hire these fresh graduates. I am not sure the take up rate or the scope of the scheme but seems like a smaller scale of what you are proposing.

If this recession in Singapore is cyclical one (as Govt says) and not a structural problem in our economy, I believe that stop gap measures as proposed by Mr Tan or some Government measures will help. However if there is a structural problem with our economy (I am mindful that MNCs have been relocating to lower costs locations in the last ten years because of our rising business costs, we are ahead of the world in entering this recession and most importantly we have to start casinos in Singapore to fill the void in our GDP left by the exodus of MNCs), then the stop gap measures will only delay the eventual.

To tackle an ailing economy, it’s best to use demand and supply management solutions. Govt can subsidise its population in terms of lower cost of living and at the same time reduce the no. of projects we are doing now that actually cause this slowdown in GDP growth.

Problem is, is our govt doing so? I still see the govt building this and that, but not for a necessary purpose. Take Circle Line for eg, if there were demand for it in the first place, SMRT could recover its budget even if they don’t peg the fares to that of NEL. Same thing for KPE or MCE. You build an expressway and you put ERPs there. Obviously you’re trying to earn $$$, main purpose is not to solve traffic problems.

Ok, it should by now be Absolutely Clear
that UNEmployment Statistics can be made to 1% or lower, easily based on Solutions suggested in this Blog. That is , Insurance Agents are considered Employed if not As Self-Employed. The barrier to entry is quite low. There are just too many jobs or ways to make someone employed.

We know the REAL Issue is INCOME.

A PMET used to earn, say, $4000 / mth with 5 years work experience.

Now, retrenched, he is unemployed for 6 months not because of his lack of skills but the Lack of Jobs Created. Suddenly, he is no more in the unemployment statistic. He registered a business, where he has to 1st clear his outstanding medisave payment if any. He is now promoted to the post of Director and Boss.
His income is Zero due to the market conditions. He however contributes to the economy and country by generating revenue for others. He pay and pay the rentals, startup capital, even an employee.

get the drift?

@72) tiredman

So, U served army, working now, competiting with FT/FWs? Voted how many times, huh? Singapore welcomes another Second Class citizen! Ha, ha… no offense, lah.

Sure, things are much interlinked. Of the head maybe something like:

2-is-enough policy –> hurrah, GDP growing –> not enough manpower to grow GDP –> get women to enter workforce by upping cost of living –> kids raising –> get foreign maids (3rd industry = more GDP, hurrah) –> maid salary is low, but so what, “population” & GDP is up –> culture that low wages are OK takes root –> more women working = no time for more babies –> get in FTs, screw those that have done NS –> more GDP, yes, yes –> recal. Spore can actually substantiate 6m –> Oops, 25-40 years ago, did not produce enough babies for the 25-40 year-old workers needed now (huh, what long-term KPI?) –> get more FT/FWs, pay them low, pocket high earnings –> low wages now an essential driver –> GDP up, up –> 1/3 populace FT/FW –> probably less than 25% populace ever served NS = minority = can walkover them –> free trade/open market = S’poreans compete openly with FTs/FWs, best (aka cheapest) man wins –> screwing those that have done NS is SOP –> high GDP = higher MPs pay –> Recession –> garmen sotong lau…

From Mr Tan’s explanation @67, I gather it kinda tie in with the policies of attracting foreign MNCs & growing at all costs. The main aim is GDP growth, not the total growth of Singapore. They pull in some MNCs/IRs, these generate GDP/taxes revenue, you think it is relevant whether locals or FTs/FWs are employed? Big projects on-going, great to boost GDP number, need cheap masses of labor, so what they are housed in pigeon holes. S’poreans want to work, pay cheap, cheap!!

Actually, there is one area where many, many jobs can be created for Singaporeans that would have a huge impact on our productivity when the economy recovers: renewable energy.

It is surprising that given skyrocketing energy prices in recent years and our dependence on oil imports, we have not seen a greater push by the govt to promote renewable energy. We are now far behind US and China (as a percentage of GDP) in govt investment into R&D, education and conversion to renewable energy. This will come back to bite us when the global economy recovers and fossil energy prices skyrocket due to peak oil and inflation.

Possible govt policies:
1. Offer grants and scholarships for degrees in environment engineering, solar energy, wind energy, etc.
2. Offer incentives for ‘clean energy’ buildings. HDB should take the lead here as well.
3. (2) will create jobs for a new industry in retrofitting the buildings in Singapore to be more energy efficient.

Instead of seeing more condos built with glass nowadays, that will cost more to air-condition due to the greenhouse effect, I hope to see the glass coated with thin-film solar panels one day.

Actually, EDB did highlight this as a source of growth back in 2007. But their focus is more in R&D and manufacturing for the export market. Why not start at home first? Instead of spending billions to subsidize businesses that are no longer viable, why not channel the money into a sunrise industry?

http://www.edb.gov.sg/edb/sg/en_uk/index/news/articles/Singapore_s_Clean_Energy_Industry__A_New__Sustainable_Way_Of_Doing_Business.html

I believe there is a lot of Room for an Alternate Solution Team.
Democrats – Republican model is highly recommended, according to me.
With populations increased substantially already in a crowded dot,
I say its now or never. Its about time the people support an Alternate Solution Team.
Some may demand alternate solution be shown. I say it has to be patented 1st.

comments about public sector economy recovery jobs:

- how can we decide which jobs are useful and which jobs merely force artificial employment at the expense of the tax payers?

- how do we withdraw this temporary economy recovery jobs when the economy recovers without creating an unpopular public out-cry?

- i think the agenda of providing employment to low-wage workers is a kind one but it should be linked to spearheading a new way to run the economy. the effectiveness of public sector driven employment as a means to boost the economy in Singapore is much less than the USA.

@89) Panache

Have you tried following up on the Sustainability Initiative mentioned 1-2 months back? Said to have 18,000 jobs potential. Supposed to be a 5 ministries co-ordinating task but no one able to commit where those 18K jobs are. Usual jump from one dept to another, last connection was to a Police Station! Take the newspaper adv. showing a successful XXX with a LARGE pinch of salt too!

The main thrust appears to be sustaining exisitng building efficiency, training, training, training…, not Renewables nor alternate sources.

This is what I meant above posting where we should have given a bunch of our scholars seed money for startup and tell them to “swim or die”. We are now at least 5-8 years behind in adopting solar. As usual, probably waiting for NREL to build their solar plant here, so we can frog-leap all the development efforts & then “choo lek” some tech from them. Probably give us the 1st generation PV or at best 2G stuff. Current world trend is into 3G. Ain’t we smart in attracting MNCs!

Sorry, don’t mean to discourage you. These are purely my experiences/views. Better luck to you … PLS post me if you found otherwise..

PS. maybe you could do a simple study on energy requirement using thin-film tech, the cost, efficiency, etc… for a simple house. Let me give U a leg up — insolation of Spore = 4.6.

renewable energy in singapore to boost jobs:

- my speculation? renewable energy may be able to provide short-term employment but it’s unlikely to provide sustainable employment because (1) solar energy is still expensive and more R&D is still needed to lower the cost and (2) unlike the USA market, our local demand is insufficient to cover all the development cost. [Water technology is a die-die need once the pact stops so the government is will to invest...]

- without a larger market to sustain this business, any sole investment doesn’t seem favourable. we can experiment with some seed money at the most, but hopes are probably not too high… joint venture, may be… but the hard part is to convince foreign investors…

Hi #92 some comments

You asked

- how can we decide which jobs are useful and which jobs merely force artificial employment at the expense of the tax payers?

- how do we withdraw this temporary economy recovery jobs when the economy recovers without creating an unpopular public out-cry?

I have already mentioned some categories of jobs in the education, health, social, welfare, environment, safety sectors. Most of these jobs are to be assistants to full time workers. This will help to reduce their workload and stress.

When the economy recovers, many of these workers will move to higher paying jobs in the private sector ,rather than be stuck in the economic recovery jobs paying minimum wage. I do not foresee any outcry.

Thanks for asking.

Isn’t MOE already expanding their teacher recruitment during this time?

The civil service always acts as the kind of unemployment insurance you are mentioning here.

hi Tan Kin Lian (June 19th, 2009 3.29 pm),

////When the economy recovers, many of these workers will move to higher paying jobs in the private sector ,rather than be stuck in the economic recovery jobs paying minimum wage. I do not foresee any outcry.////

what are the higher paying jobs that will appear?
how do you know that many will move on?
how to acertain the economy really recover for good, & not just grow another bubble that will burst again some years down the road?

aiyoyo

cna news :

Lim Hwee Hua urges nations to be mindful of recovery patterns

is elites to create more recovery jobs?

aiyoyo

I am 69 and to find a job I left Sing for Indochina.

I found my own job by growing sugar and selling them

I also sub-edit for an English newspaper and I write and take press photographs too.

I am thinking of teaching writing and journalism and I mean in English to the local English journalists. For foc.

My pay as a journalist is very low as my employer is struggling. 180 sing dollars per month.

But, life is good to me.

I enjoy my job.

@94) some comments

respect your views, but here are my speculations:

(1) of course it is still expensive. We should ask why we didn’t pump R&D money back 5-10 years so that NOW it can be affordable. Still relying on foreign tech as short cut? You TKK (wait long long). Too many scholars in wrong positions doing f***. Yeah, too much $$ in investments too.

(2) Yes Spore is too small, but there is actually a shortage of PV supply worldwide now. Export potential = employment, get it? Also, any tech used locally always has potential for further development. Question you should ask is what has our gahmen done about it? Compare with experience in Germany, Europe, Japan & USA. Expensive but people still adopting – why and how? They willing to cough out billions for a better tomorrow, we blow our billions where huh?

Of course cost, potential, future earnings, etc… always true in any venture. And admit PV is expensive. But then it is just a priority of where one put one’s money. If $60+b from TH losses used in an Apollo program, we could have plant our flag on the frea***** moon instead of top of Mt Everest! Do your sum, you know how many HDB blocks $60b could have solar-powered, even with current 1G tech? I say ball-park of couple of 10,000’s BLOCKS! To install, maintain, upgrade, train, manufacture, service, etc… for 10,000’s installations, what is the “short-term” potential employment/market/industry? Plus, less reliance on fossil fuels. (Oil prices going up now, right?). Now, if we only take $1b out from GIC/TH for tech development …. wah, $1 with 9 zeroes… too much risk. Better re-buy BoA.

Hi #97) mice is nice

Dr Goh Keng Swee, who was the architect of Singapore’s economic miracle, once gave the following answer to the kind of questions posed by you, “You will know an elephant when you see one charging at you”.

There is some discussion about renewable energy. The question, “will we be able to get solar energy down to a competitive cost?”

I am hopeful that this will happen within the next few years. Here are some reasons for my confidence:

a) The advance of science and R&D is quite staggering. 10 years ago, most people were sceptical about producing potable water at economic cost. We have now been able to achieve it.

b) Barack Obama is also investing a lot of money and his credibility in this effort. We will be able to benefit from some of the research being done there.

c) Singapore has sun all year round. So, we should be able to get greater efficiency in our infrastructure of solar panels and other equipment

d) I like the concept that solar energy that is not used immediately can be supplied to the power grid to be used by other users. This saves on the cost of storing the energy in battery.

I agree with the suggestion by theforgottengeneration that we should be investing in the R&D for this effort. It will create many engineering and supporting jobs and also build our knowhow for the future, and for export.

Hi kelvin #96

Yes, the Government is creating some jobs. This effort should be multiplied 20 to 50 times to get the desired effect. It has to be more than just teachers.

@94 some comments,

Forgot to add your points on “..short-term employment..”, “…without a larger market to sustain this business..”, etc. True, true, true.

But what is rational for, say, development of our Bionix IFV? How much development cost? Only market = SAF. How many did we built eventually? What is/was the export status thus far? Like NEWater, we die-die must develop it, is it? Cheaper to upgrade the M113’s? What was the returns in dollars & cents? Ok, I am not privileged to calculate how many can be made with $60b — but probably can replace the entire SBS bus fleet + extras! (Aside, do these thingys need COE on our roads?)

@102) Tan Kin Lian

c) See reply @93 – Spore insolation is 4.6 kWh/day, which isn’t really that great but yes we don’t have winter months, etc…

Any ideas how garmen can be convince to pump real $$ into such schemes? Translating to local JOBS, of course. Know HDB is currently championing solar, but seems rather a closed door affair. Again, the public sector “mentality issue”?

104) From the inside, heard there are not enough fighter pilots for recent purchase of the F15s’

hi Mr Tan Kin Lian,

i like your humour in post #101,

////Dr Goh Keng Swee, who was the architect of Singapore’s economic miracle, once gave the following answer to the kind of questions posed by you, “You will know an elephant when you see one charging at you”.////
in response to my post #97

////what are the higher paying jobs that will appear?
how do you know that many will move on?
how to acertain the economy really recover for good, & not just grow another bubble that will burst again some years down the road?////

now, can i ask why is the elephant charging in my direction?

107) mice is nice

why is the elephant charging in my direction?
good question, I too do not have the answer
now to side track…..

And how do you tell an elephant from Sri Lanka from an elephant from Sabah?

Answer: Look at his passport. : )

81) mice is nice

I was side tracking not refering to any of your post, no worries

hi KopitiamApek,

i also sidetrack abit eh…
i to elephants are afraid of mice? 8)

do you think the elephant so cooperative will show passport?

Hi #107)mice is nice,

can you make sure your last question …

////
now, can i ask why is the elephant charging in my direction?/ ///

is not a waste of TKL’s and our time?

@98) mice is nice

//how to acertain the economy really recover for good,//

You can only if you are omnipotent.

// & not just grow another bubble that will burst again some years down the road?//

Try using barter and do away with inflationary, quantitative easing, a euphemism for resorting to the printing press to monetize debts.

hi Notalone,

so true, but you should have posed this qestion to the 1 who 1st mentioned it.

well, how to take such reply seriously. lol…

………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

hi Curious,

huh, what about people who are tasked to forecast economy? they are omnipotent?

i support barter!! say no to credit!!

#112) Curious,

‘mice is nice’ might be interested to know the answers you have diligently posted.

But a more mature and logical person should ask these questions in a more sincere manner.

You are too kind and patience.

re Notalone,

your “more sincere manner”?…

////is not a waste of TKL’s and our time?////

yeah, i can sense your sincerity in that statement above.

lol…

#113 mice is nice
You and notalone (#114) are echong each other. Are you the same person?
You seem to be posting views under other names as well.
Sorry, I will not be replying to your questions anymore.

@106) ACACIA

Spore context — fighter Ps must have all F-15 skills + balls carrying payload to infinite range. This limits our small pool much further?

aiyoyo

cna news :

SINGAPORE – All management staff in Singapore Airlines (SIA) will from July take a salary cut of at least 10 per cent, including its chief executive, who will take a 20 per cent cut.

when economy recover? when? elites..

aiyoyo