The economic bubble burst happened in Asia before too, including Spore. I can only see that you bring the America economy up to shift the criticism on other systems (its not even relevant to this democracy discussion) Why? Why do you people ALWAYS hve to compare with this and that?

Wanting democracy in Spore has got nothing to do with loving American system. I want the freedom to be able to choose what I want to read, see or hear and freedom to support who I want and to support. Even a child who has not been to America does not need to learn from America to want this, unless of course this child has been told upteen times that his duty is to submit to those above and that it is wrong not to obey. Incidentally, are you that child?

Can you actually pinpoint what situation and what condition calls for what kind of government? This is the classic chicken & egg story. I can also say that the type of Govt creates the situatiojn and the condition.

What about that?

why call it American system. was the magna carta UK or USA. oops, or the improved version of the magna carta. if it is a good system, you adopt it and just call it your own (any patent on this kind of goods where loyalty needs to be paid).

did not we (with the friendly help of those higher mortals) indirectly buy into part of their debt.

many countries are still floating independently from USA and of course they are also not like USA.

So the policy of the day will be influenced by Situation and Condition.

I am going to have a cold beer, to exercise my democratic right as a Singaporean.”

well, their system seems to be optimal. If they screw, they are pretty open about it. their system allows people to make noise and people decide whether those governing are worth keeping. process is more democratic in practise than other places of the world where the word democracy sometimes is in name only just to borrow credible support.

in some parts of the world, they screw but the screwing is kept from public (see nothing, hear nothing, speak nothing) while the culprits get away scot-free thinking it is alright to continue the practice.

I hope your more harmless excercise of democratic right of having a cold beer (which I think is also allowed in more dangerous & undemocratic places in the worst corner of the world) can be meaningly expanded into an more important area of our political process – where the wider policy making affects each and everyone of us more and where participants will probably yawn with sleepy eyes when cold beer is mentioned.

So to you, wanting freedom or democracy is because it is in fashion to be “aping America” ? It would be good if you can bring your statement to Mediacorp. Ask them to stop doing Singapore version of American Idol. Thats really very uncool!

Aping the West seems to be the fashion now. Come on, surely we don’t have to follow America to the letter. Our situation are different.

I am going to have a cold beer, to exercise my democratic right as a Singaporean.

Your post: “What do you mean by its time for democracy? You sound like you just woke up like Rip Van Winkle. Of course Singapore has been a democratic country.”

- I will just extract this from Joel Low:

“…speech by OBAMA in Egypt … one of the point about true democracy is:

It should be “A Government of the people and by the people”
“You must put the interest of your people and the legitimate working of the political process above your party.” “Without these, election alone does not make true democracy”

How true can that be ….. Singaporean should hear this and wake up from their slumber”

- So, if I have just woken up, you are STILL SLEEPING! A democratic country does not have state controlled media, a democratic county does not put its citizens in jail for some words said, a democratic country does not have backdoor MPs, a democratic country does not have so many state owned companies, a democratic country……

Your post: “One thing we must learn is to let our elected Captain take charge. If we don’t like the captain, remove him. But if the majority (66%) likes the captain, then based on democratic process the captain and his team must stay.”

- Adding to Oxymoron above: The 66% is from how many percent of citizens considering the many walkovers (no thanks to tactics like GRC, defamation suit, ISA & IMH detention? Is it less than 50% of citizens minus the walkovers? That makes much less than 50% of total citizens!

Your post: “On this note I must reiterate that Burma is not democratic. Burma is relatively weak too. But that is a Burmese problem. My duty is to my family, my friends and Singapore.”

- The Burmese junta will say that Burma is a strong country, and make their media tell their people so. Your duty is only to your family, friends and Singapore (rightly so in Spore’s situation), shows that Spore is still relatively weak due to lack of true democracy. Only strong countries are in a position to care about others.

162) Joel Low on June 5th, 2009 2.47 pm I just heard the speech by OBAMA in Egypt … one of the point about true democracy is:

It should be “A Government of the people and by the people”
“You must put the interest of your people and the legitimate working of the political process above your party.” “Without these, election alone does not make true democracy”

How true can that be ….. Singaporean should hear this and wake up from their slumber

B = “On this note I must reiterate that Burma is not democratic.”

C = “But that is a Burmese problem. My duty is to my family, my friends and” Singapore.

A & B = oxymoron.

C = oxymoron statement is ok.

Even if you have democracy, ‘strength’ or wealth and development may not necessary follow. It ultimately boils down to good governance, good and pragmatic programmes, good citizens, good neighbours and good conditions.

You said that Singapore is a weak country considering its wealth etc. Whether Singapore is a strong country or not depends on which country you are comparing too. But to be fair, considering the situation 50 years ago and today we have to be thankful and proud that Singaporeans had pulled through and is not a weak country in all aspects.

What do you mean by its time for democracy? You sound like you just woke up like Rip Van Winkle. Of course Singapore has been a democratic country.

One thing we must learn is to let our elected Captain take charge. If we don’t like the captain, remove him. But if the majority (66%) likes the captain, then based on democratic process the captain and his team must stay.

On this note I must reiterate that Burma is not democratic. Burma is relatively weak too. But that is a Burmese problem. My duty is to my family, my friends and Singapore.

“Democracy can kill a country that is fundamentally weak. So build up the strength first and then introduce democracy”

Can you please clarify what you mean by “a country that is fundamentally weak” Build up what strength?

In my opinion, the strength of a country is in its people, therefore democracy must come first, not vice versa.

OK, lets say you are right, and assuming I understand you correctly, is Spore considered a strong country now? If it is, then you agree its time for democracy? If not, why is Spore still a weak country considering its wealth and top rankings in practically everything according to ST.

In a place where force is used and treasured as “god-given right” (the edict from heaven as in empire / emperors ?) where sacrifices of human beings are treated with ambivalence and mere disagreement with the powerful meant death for certain, one will be an idiot even if one is smart. In history, we have come across common people & intellectuals being sacrificed (death, jailed, etc) for the convoluted fancies of some special species of an annointed few.

“China had been invaded by the japanese, Americans, Portuguese, Dutch, British etc What does it mean to us? That the so called great country China isn’t so great afterall.”

You have provided the answer. When you treat your own people like dirt (digits), other nation will treat your people like dirt also. Your own people will in turn treat one another of their kind like dirt and treat foreigns like diamonds. does it sound familiar to you ? Now go back to history and replay what has been going on all this while.

“Human rights, democracy etc Do the West believe in it.”

The west screw others. But worst countries are screwing their own kind. Maybe you can see better in this raw statement.

“Democracy can kill a country that is fundamentally weak. So build up the strength first and then introduce democracy.”

100% agreeing with you on this. Now where to start as history has told us that those countries which are very poor in this area will usually need to see drastic changes (chaos) first before the process of healing (democracy) can begin (and there is no guarantee that it will happen also).

Nations will rise and nations will fall. If you read history, China had been invaded by the japanese, Americans, Portuguese, Dutch, British etc What does it mean to us? That the so called great country China isn’t so great afterall.

So Mao and Teng came along and we see something resembling a country of its size.

Are we glad or are we sad??

Human rights, democracy etc Do the West believe in it.

Democracy can kill a country that is fundamentally weak. So build up the strength first and then introduce democracy.

Ang Mo Tua Ki

With thousands of years of history behind them, yet they are still not ahead of developed europe or even states in their mindset. a lot of dictators will naturally feel a lot of comfort with people having views like yours.

does the price of the pork affect the lives of people run by such dictates. How about our very own Phds, does it have any resemblance.

“Anyway I assume we have three solid meals a day, so we can talk about human rights, democracy, communism, Burma, cholesterol etc etc”

Talking about meals, I thought they were once much greater empires than us to begin with. So regressive and progressive ? in terms of three solid meals.

Thus the Chinese Govt that I respect is the one that takes charge. You can have a few Phds running around it doesn’t change the price of pork. TianAnMen would have been disasterous if Mr Teng had not been tough. Sacrifice a thousand to save a nation of 1.3 billion people, that is the stake.

Talk is free and easy. Wait unitl you have civil war and civil disobedience, that gets out of control then you will realise that the value of peace and prosperity is really welcomed.

Anyway I assume we have three solid meals a day, so we can talk about human rights, democracy, communism, Burma, cholesterol etc etc

But don’t get carried away. Let the Burmese find a solution to their problems. If we can help we help, but we should not agitate or worst still agitate them.

-=-====

kekekeke :)

Burma is another Nkorea. No matter how much you rally outside burma, no country is going to send their troops into burma to free ASSK and the suffering people. There isn’t any oils/resources that concerned those “democratic” countries like united states, europe etc.

Only the burmese can change the country themselves.