Mr Tan,
this has to be the most interesting post I read in TOC this year, with all the commandments of the elite.
Thank…

Dear Mr Tan,

you mentioned that singaporeans are hardworking.
But there have been reports that painted singaporeans as choosey and unable to take hardships shunning jobs that pay lowly and requiring to work long hours and shifts and almost everyday need to work.

and there is one who said singaporeans are mollycoooodly.

Its easy to say singaporeans are like this or like that.
The fact is, this is unfair way to label singaporeans because this is not based on absolute findings – did the person who labeled singaporeans did a check on ALL singaporeans? Did he mean 10% or x% or 100% singaporeans?

Why not we say the opposite? That singaporeans are hardworking and do not shun low paying, long-hour jobs, looking at singaporeans from THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COIN?

get my drift?

Very nostalgic to read a review of the Animal Farm. I recommend George Orwell’s 1984. It is a political satire on an authoritarian island state called Oceania ruled by men in white.

The sheep are starting to bother me. There must be something
they gain from all the balls-carrying. I often wonder how they benefit
from it, and with some stretch of imagination, thought if its possible
that they genuinely felt they are doing something relevant and for
the good of the community.

3) smallvice
I dread the day 1984 will become relevant to our society. That will
be the day where we realize that even TOC and other online forums
is a set-up.

#2)

Agree with you that many times our leaders are labelling Singaporeans a particular ‘pattern’ without concrete evidence.

They conveniently put up a result of a survey done (of which i question the validity and the requirement of auditing) and claimed their findings, and thus came up with an bright idea or policy to tackle the issue.

After a while, another survey result would be out and would start boasting the effectiveness of the policy the have implemented.

When the policy flopped, they simply ignored the exercise and treated like nothing had happened before. Sometimes worst, misleading figures or presentations were being conjured up to smoke Singaporeans out.

Do not wish to pin point which incidents / policies fall under the subjects of the above discussion. Any Singaporean who really cares about the transparency and fairness of our government, he/she should be able to tell and share the same feelings – SICKENING.

Best regards to all.

smallvice(#3),

I concluded that Singapore would probably belong to Eastasia. In 1984, there are three superpowers: Oceania, Eurasia and Eastasia.

What talking you ! If Singaporeans are not hardworking, than who strived hard at work to bring up successive generations of hard working Singaporeans till today.
Were they and are they not Singaporeans, who got the airport ,seaport, business, defence, transport, Parliament ticking away here? What about the taxi drivers, lawyers, nurses, doctors, karang kuni man? Were most of these people foreigners ? For a while I thought this discussion was about workers in Saudi Arabia or Dubai. Where the majority of their citizens dont work, and they employ mostly foreigners from the lowest to the highest jobs. Of course the Royal Rulers have always been the same local people.Power handed down from generation to generations, who are most of the time abroad, on state expenses. Is this truley happening here too. Reckon I’ve being too long desert tracking.

I like ur comparisons, Mr Tan. Its v.interesting and enlightening :-)

So do you see urself as in contrary to the old donkey, Benjamin?

S’pore Boxers?

Throwing up names for discussion

Devan Nair, Ong Teng Chong, Goh Keng Swee, Ong Eng Guan, Lim Chin Siong, Toh Chin Chye, Tan Kin Lian, EW Barker

But the analogy breaks down as none of above were liquidated: turned into glue. They died in their beds or are still alive. )))

Ivan,

Time is right for a re-run of Animal Farm.?

Hi Fan of Animal Farm (#2)

I have seen many Singgaporeans who are hardworking. They work 12 hours a day, in one or two jobs, just to earn enough to feed a family, and usually not enough. They drive taxis, start work very early, work till late at hight, work in service industries, work nearly every day of the year.

And they don’t earn enough to save for their retirement. What they managed to save were cheated from them through various bad financial products.

I have also soon some choosy Singaporeans, of the type that you have described, but they tend to be fewer. If you offer them a job that pays a fair wage (and not the wage that is willing to be accepted by foreign workers), they are usually willing to accept it.

It is good but it is not original.

The point is it represents the truth.

Singapore is a sad place.

Of course Animal Farm is relevant to Singapore. But that’s only because Singapore is a classic example of a dictatorship. Hence any allegories and critiques of repression are relevant to Singapore. it can be Animal Farm, it can be 1984, or Brave New World, A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovitch, the Czech writers the brought about Prague Spring etc. We find Singapore in all of these writings.

Silly, still need to ask? This has been going on for such a long time already. It is so obvious.

The champion of the people has become the suppressor of the people.
The champion of the poor has become the exploiter of the poor.

He who once worked for the welfare of the poor has now turned to working for the welfare of the rich.

He who has argued for the freedom of the press has now become the suppressor of the press.

I can go on and on …..

But alas! What to do? It has happened ….. sigh ….

Insightful. But it is not too late if people who care enough steps forward to help, without being bogged down by fear of opposing the PAP (ie opposition party.)

Yes, it is sad that the govt deems fit to raise the price of HDB flats from cost plus to pegging to condo market price / resale price, making HDB prices unaffordable to many Singaporeans.

Knock on effect is that many now realise their CPF is no longer for retirement, as was planned in 1960s, and PAP is are now plugging holes by making the populace work beyond 65, making it the national mantra that you must work, when it was the PAP fault in raising HDB prices.

And Minister Mah will continue smiling for being the GDP level at sky high so as to appease all who’s performance bonus depends on the GDP level – ie all ministers.

That is a sad fact where their million dollar bonus (7 or 8 months) is clearly tied to GDP.

Time for a change of govt.

Kin Lian, thank you for bringing the satire closer to home.

In 1959 we threw out the British colonial masters and turn their Crown colony on its head. Today, we ended up with a clown colony with the same electoral masters for 45 years. The new commandments in the Animal Farm should include:

1 Men in white are good.
2 Multi-million dollar salary is to prevent corruption.
3 All are equal but some are more equal when it comes to pensions.
4 Due process is guaranteed, except when ISA is invoked.
5 Freedom of assembly is guaranteed too but after 5 persons, better get permit.
6 GRC managed to get 14 minorities and only 61non-minorities into Parliament.
7 Westminster model is good but needed local tweaking for NMP & NCMP.
8 Your CPF savings are for your retirement when you are over 80.
9 ERP is to prevent traffic jams and does not mean “every road pay”
10 Our investments are for long term. Barclay’s and BOA are just exceptions.
11 You can have Swiss standard of living, just pay and pay lor.
12 Who says pigs don’t fly? There was clear evidence that swine flew in Mexico.

So what can be changed? Which country’s govt model can we follow and still be successful?

errata : “In 1959 we threw out the British colonial masters and turned their Crown colony on its head.”

How nicely depicted by Orwell….humanity must learn. Now it is Singapore’s turn to understand, where, how and what we want ….for ourselves.

Nice article, many a times, people have compared this novel with Singapore’s political leadership.

But we can still decide….VOTE.

Ordinary Citizen: Sir, do you agree that Singapore is turning into Animal Farm?

Typical Man in White: Nonsense! We are an urban society, there is no place for farming or animal husbandry!

TKL:

you did not mentioned about the relevance of public media and propanganda. The MSM and the censorship or un-censorship of ‘good news’

I see lots of parallel between Singapore and Animal Farm.

1. Lim Chin Siong = Snowball

Many thought he would be the Chief Minsiter of Singapore when Singapore was granted self-rule. Eventually, was arrested by ISD during Operation Coldstore.

Just like Snowball was chased out of the farm, he was banished from SIngapore.

2. ISD = Dogs

Need I say more?

3. Squealer = MSM

Just like Squealer who is the mouthpiece of the pigs and only has good things to say about the pigs, the MSM performed this role to perfection.

4. Peasants = Boxer

Just like Boxer, peasants are expected to work till their last drop of economic worth is extracted. And like Boxer who is slaughtered for glue and leather, our peasants have to give up their “coffin money” thru scheme like CPF Life.

5. Constitution = 7 Commandments

The 7 Commandments were changed at will to suit the pigs’ purposes, our constitution were also amended with no resistance. Remember the GRC ?

6) notalone on June 10th, 2009 2.02 am

I cannot disagree with you. ;)

I have made an observation but need TOC readers and writers advice if its valid or reasonable.

1. Singaporeans have become Complacent when reading the news. I stand corrected. “Some” (no scientific proof how many) Singaporeans have become complacent in the aspect of digesting the news. I corrected my statement as it is an UNFAIR or Sweeping Statement to use the word ‘Singaporean’ loosely as it implies EVERY singaporean is so.

In this world , there is no such thing as ‘EVERY’ or 100%. I mean, when reporting something, BOTH SIDES of the COIN should be presented in order to convince readers that there is no BIASNESS, not that there is bias. So, when singing the Praise, the Failures, if any, should also be presented, if exist . This is the only unbias way of reporting.

But do most Singaporeans think this way or just accept what is printed without analysing how it was written and if other aspects are presented together?

I see that this is one of the main problems of this nation. It is a contributor to social-political issue APATHY. To be fair, when it comes to food and shopping, singaporeans are not Apathetic.

I am convinced if we can change the singaporean mentality in this aspect, to get them to learn to read the news demanding or Expecting reporting that includes both sides of the coin, the nation will progress even further and everything will start to fall in place.

In short, the problem is also with the People. Although that T-rex has to go extinct
1st before barriers would come crumbling down.

regards
Nature
“Scrutinise EVERYTHING. TRUST but demand PROOF in order to be convinced. QUESTION Everything. Tear down the walls of ignorance”

Beside reading the book, they can watch the full cartoon movie of Animal Farm in
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZldlyeR8DU

After the oldman’s demise, hopefully there will be another Animal Farm based on the PAP.

Mr. Tan,
Wren;t you once a pig?

Yeah, AF was a great read then. We just needed time to open our eyes:

LKY era: HDB built for the people, people therefore should vote PAP.

GCT era: U vote PAP, pay ERP…etc, then your HDB gets upgrading.

Current: U gives yr hard-earned monies for TH/GIC to invest, they bring in FTs to displace your jobs. Your vote “counts”. (Incidentally, how many out there have voted more than twice in 50 years of self-rule?)

Sure S’poreans are partly to blame, e.g. choosy about $800-1200 jobs. Let’s see, minus CPF contribution, transportation costs, home loan, electric bills, TV license, essential items…. and …yeah just enough for a loaf of bread a day, no kopi. Why don’t MPs just have a token allowance then, maybe @1-3K for their kopi time?

i would like to think of Mr Tan as “Nathan Ford” (played by Timothy Hutton) in the TV series “Leverage” shown on AXN Monday 9pm.

Like him, the character used to work for an insurance company (the similarity ends here) but kena play out when the company refused to pay for his son’s cancer treatment. The son died.

He turned. Now lead a highly skilled team to exact revenge on those whom use power and wealth to victimised the common man. They work together to secure justice for society’s underdogs.

It takes an insider to know how the game is played…

Does the school still teach animal farm now? It was one of my favourite literatures but I couldn’t grasp its full meaning until it occured in our life. Than I realised we are all animals under the pig in white. Time to take action, we should never be treated like animals in Animal Farm. The pigs should be send to slaughter house once and for all when election is here.

“Have you seen the bigger piggies
In their starched white shirts
You will find the bigger piggies
Stirring up the dirt”

Piggies by the Beatles
http://www.lyricsmode.com/lyrics/g/george_harrison/piggies.html

Can we organise a strike along orchard road to protest? What we don’t need in a free country is dictatorship.

This afternoon, I was walking along the city street of a capital in a central america country, they were having a protest/strike by a lot of university students. I can see lots of policeman with armors and smoke grenades, motorbike policeman, and a armor vehicle with water gun. I took some pictures of them :)

The crowds just stand besides the streets to let the protesters and polices go by before crossing. The people are used to the scenes and i don’t see anything wrong with a peaceful strike/protest if it is for a good cause. There has to be balance of power in a society and not one-sided.

It was my first time to witness such an event, and didn’t feel threaten by the police. Maybe it is because some1 told me there are UN observers around.

Coming back to Singapore soon.
Cheers.

doctorwho,
you should take note of “Move on” power of the police. Even before you protest, you be “Move On” and no reason need to be given.

1. I can’t claim that I know the whole picture, but I suspect that although the income has widened, this whole issue is blown out of proportion by the media (which also includes everything other than the official news), and so I think many people are over-reacting. We don’t have to become so cynical.

2. I think the main reason for the widening income gap is that as the economy progresses, the lower income group hasn’t been able to make as much progress as all the rest; and not because they are exploited to make the make up the riches for the rich. I think we need to find out the actual reason (I don’t mean to back the current policies). If not, a baseless ideological battle of social classes will ultimately hurt the future generation most.

To two things:

Your two things always looks like like two thinks to me. You always think this and that. Maybe it is better for you to provide some hard data instead of two thinks.

To kongseeme

If Temasek can suka suka change long term investments to short term ones in a span of a few months, can’t Mr Tan change his mind about the govt?

I wonder what is the unbiased and sincere view of their supporters on the losses and the non-reply?

Mr. Tan, thanks for ur interesting post, u are the thorn in the pigs’ as*** in white.

“The crowds just stand besides the streets to let the protesters and polices go by before crossing. The people are used to the scenes and i don’t see anything wrong with a peaceful strike/protest if it is for a good cause. There has to be balance of power in a society and not one-sided.”

So both protestors and police know that the other side is not so nasty afterall and each side has their own civic duties to perform to further the well-being of society – by having important social issues being displayed peacefully out in the open for all to see and not too be swept under the carpet as though nothing bad is happening and hopefully quick rectifying actions will be taken to address the issues.

Here, the police and protestors are made to look as though they are at completely opposite ends on the civic continum.

Hi two things,

You could be right you know. Go then, and find out the truth, then come back here and share them with us ;) – won’t you?

The animal farm version is outdated. It has been upgraded to phantom of paradise. Phantom workers has invaded our work place. Phantom MP is still operating in the north. Phantom student can be found in our school system. More and more phantoms are coming. Hurry imported more foreign monks to chase away the phantom.

34) kongseeme on June 10th, 2009 2.50 pm

//Mr. Tan, what talking you. You were once a staunch PAP supporter. Then, you never said all these things that you are saying nowadays. You have never ever complained before about Singaporeans being “vicitmised” as stated in this article.”

I think it is because the old Chinese proverb says “Deep doubts, deep wisdom.”
As for you kongseeme, please note the corollary “small doubts, little wisdom.”

//You mean the government is corrupt meh? How leh?//

Corruption does not only mean “taking bribes.” We Singaporeans are too rich to take bribes. My dictionary says “corrupt” means decay or rotten or infected like your Windows XP files are infected with a virus and are corrupted. Get it?

“If not, a baseless ideological battle of social classes will ultimately hurt the future generation most.”

aiyoh, likewise a lot of ecnomists (and I mean trained economists) will also have their own different school of thoughts & ideologies, just perhaps they can smoke you better with their own trade jargons and complex merry-go-rounds like a lot of experts will usually do in their own respective areas if you are a green horn neophyte which you are definitely not.

This is just a novel which contains the essential message that power corrupts and perhaps, absolute power corrupts absolutely. It is unwise to draw too close a parallel with the situation in Singapore.

The main thing is: there must be limits to political power and there ought to be non-violent mechanisms for the removal of leaders who no longer serve the people.

Removing the PAP or putting the opposition in power is not the solution as there is no guarantee that the new leaders will not become corrupted themselves later.

The best assurance of a fair society is to have a higher level of political awareness and sophistication in the electorate who will vote wisely. They should be trained to vote for the welfare of the country rather than for their own personal gain.

However, I don’t see the electorate in Singapore improving in the near future and therefore, the status quo will prevail.

Nah – Phantom of Paradise is o so outdated. The latest is High School Musical style of upturning the downturn.

For those who doubt Mr Tan, I think we should all give him a chance. Those who are familiar with the Romance of the 3 Kingdoms should know of a general by the name of Tai Shi Ci, who served several masters and finally found a worthy one in Sun Ce, who went on to establish the Wu Kingdom with Tai Shi Ci’s help.

Judge a person by what he do while be mindful of his past, not by his past regardless of what he do.

Ask yourself who would you rather have? Mr Tan or Vivian B? One turn from a party supporter to a champion of the people, the other the opposite direction.

the day you can’t find ‘animal farm’ in our public library is the day we’ve become the same.

Hi Roy,

Good one – my vote goes to Mr Tan. Anyoine who can draw such parallels must surely be true to the people. No doubt about that.

4) gemami on June 10th, 2009 4.40 pm

//Nah – Phantom of Paradise is o so outdated. The latest is High School Musical style of upturning the downturn//

Something akin to dancing to the tune of the Pied Piper?

i think somehow Mr. Tan realised from his dreamland of pap’s ideology and repent. at least what he does now is to help the real ones that need helps not paps.

credit still to him. agreed with 45) Roy , as long as he really tried with genuine heart and felt the general less mortal and fight for them, i think he deserved second chance unlike the chap…V.B…

There is nothing wrong to change a person’s support to political parties.
It is highly legal. :)

A Party is only as good as its people , aka leaders.

Nothing stays forever.

Past performance need not and technically does not necesarily Guarantee Future Performance.

Over Time, a person is FREE to choose based on observation and assessment of a party’s performance.

No one Owes no one nothing, so they say. By this same token, a supporter need not support the same party. Its legal.

Based on what they have done, the voters should know if performance have dropped or become unacceptable and then be FRee to cast a vote of Opposition or Proposition kekekeke.

People who exercise their right to change their votes is being Responsible and shows his Ability to Analyse and think in an UNBIASED and LOGICAL way.

Blind trust is Ignorance of the highest Octane.

May the force be with you.
Go forth and multiply.

It is unwise to draw too close a parallel between this novel and the situation in Singapore. The moral of the novel is that power corrupts and perhaps, absolute power corrupts absolutely, but this is applicable everywhere.

The important thing is that there should be limits to political power and there should be non-violent mechanisms to remove leaders who no longer serve the people.

During the first 25 years of independence, the PAP was a party of the people. Many people, including me, were proud to be Singaporeans and to be involved in the process of building up a nation.

The PAP changed around 1985. That was the time that the focus was on elitism, graduate mothers, etc. There was a departure from equality and the good of the common people. Things got worse over the years. Later, there was the focus on “foreign talents”.

While I was employed in NTUC Income, it was not possible for me to take a public position on this matter. But many of our leaders know my private views on this matter.

There are many sensible people who can see the difference and understand what I am doing. Some, like #34, is plain malicious. I suspect that he has a personal agenda against me. I think I know who he is.

Mr. Tan,

to prove your sincerity and prove some critic wrong, i sincerely hope that no matter what happened, please lead whatever party you may form and on behalf of most less mortal, take part in the coming election. i will be sure to vote for you.

God Bless!

Responding to #34:

Prime Minister Goh Chok Tong made the following statement in 2002 or 2003. “Tan Kin Lian of NTUC Income went to Shanghai recently to sell them insurance know-how. He got a shock. Instead of buying from him, the Chinese offered him computer software for managing his insurance business! The product was good, and he bought it.”

He was wrong. I was in Shanghai to attend an insurance conference, and not to sell them insurance knowhow. It was not important, so I did not want to contradict him publicly at this time.

I bought the software because it was offered at an attractive price, which was a fractoin of comparable software from other sources. I did not want to disclose this reason then, as I did not wish to embarass the software vendor.

It is important for leaders to be careful about their statements, and for people like #34 not to be so gullible!

“The important thing is that there should be limits to political power and there should be non-violent mechanisms to remove leaders who no longer serve the people.”

Of course, we appreciate your kind concern & suggestion. Just a loud thinking. Let us say that by some rare fate of providence, and your mentioned non-violent mechanisms does produce some freak election result. However, some people have bought into the wise old idea of bringing in the military. Now how are you going to square off the ultimate result of your non-violent mechanisms. Perhaps some bayesian magic could unravel it.

Now can you see that the problems do not really lie with lesser mortals who are not in the position to have funny wise idea.

Hi Mike (#53)

I asked for 100,000 signatures for me to enter into the political arena. I got only 1,400 signatures. Many Singaporeans are too scared to even sign a petition. They only expect other people to fight for them. They can use strong words and act heroic, under anonymity.

Sorry. It is a sad state of affairs in Singapore. I do not want to prove my sincerity to Singaporeans. They have to prove to themselves what kind of people they are.

“You were once a staunch PAP supporter.”

Who wouldn’t a PAP staunch PAP supporter in the 1980s ? That is only the time I get to vote for PAP, so to speak, because there isn’t any internet to rely on other than Shi-Ty time to give lies, lies and more lies. I were taken in for the lies, so to majority of those around me. No one will have thought that the mainstream media, the only media that we rely on then is nothing than a mouthpiece and propaganda tools used by the what I believe is the number world’s richest family then, until the internet expose them. In the 1980s, the newspaper paint the opp party so bad that everyone start believing lies of the PAP, and I still remember teacher calling the student to vote for PAP, not the “trouble-maker”.

But now who is richer than the one that own Singapore INC ? Not warren buffet, not Bill Gates, not anyone but some clowns who have adacity to own more than US$50 billions treated it as their and gamble it off to nobody business.

this book resonates hauntingly with the situation here in Singapore, call it the Singapore Farm

“I do not want to prove my sincerity to Singaporeans. They have to prove to themselves what kind of people they are.”

Mr. Tan, leaders are made to be different from normal mortals. If you are serious, prove it to them and lead them out of this fear in practice if one fine day you are ever elected the president of Singapore. Show it by example.

You are only one person and you asked for 100,000 signatures (and you got a brave 1400). For the first elected presidency, both candidates definitely got more than 100,000 votes without even asking for any signatures.

For subsequent presidents and as you know, they were not even elected (not elected at all in a scheme called presidential election). If they could make it with this kind of entrance, surely those brave 1400 signatures should be good enough reason for you to proceed.

Tan Kin Lian #52

“The PAP changed around 1985. That was the time that the focus was on elitism, graduate mothers, etc.”

Can see how SG is moving in tendum with:

1) US – Reagan Presidency (1981 to 1989) GOP. “… Reagan’s presidency has been termed the “Reagan Revolution,” as it was seen to cause a political realignment both within and beyond the US in favor of his brand of American conservatism and free markets…” Wikipedia.

And

2) UK – Margaret Thatcher Conservative Premiership (1979 to 1990). “…Her political philosophy and economic policies emphasised reduced state intervention, free markets, entrepreneurialism and the selling off of state owned companies…” Wikipedia.

But credit to LKY for reading the correct signs with regards to the changing wind of the times. Process of privatisation of state assets set in motion and export lead economy took SG forward.

simply, an Increased in input caused an increase in output because we are plugged into the market. Not really that miraculous says Krugman, et el.

Now, the west, US in particular, is in trouble. At the same time China and India are rising. But time is running out for LKY… he has done much to cultivate the trust and goodwill of the chinese and subtly “sharing” with them his elite-meritocratic-1 party dominant philosophy of governnance.

What’s next?

i am afraid for the day the west will become less influential and with it, the cherish ideals of democracy. There will be nothing stopping the PAP gov from declaring that Singapore do not need the westminster parliamentary model anymore!

i believe this is already in motion. Rooting for China to ascend. When the wind is blowing in favour, the chinese massive sail is ready to catch the drift. And provided the chinese gov and army can hold off the people. That is another matter.

Opposition parties MUST unite to get into parliament so as to be ABLE TO CAST VOTE to “safe” democracy.

Maybe LKY is right again with regards to reading the signs of the times. But are we about to loose our freedom (really, relatively speaking here!) for whatever riches and prosperity this new political model holds for us in the future?

Thank God there is no elixir in this world.

for the record,

i’m not at all aggreeable to the “selling off of state own companies” aka privatising them like transport, power and healthcare.

the old man already practicing his early belief.

“Repression, Sir is a habit that grows. I am told it is like making love-it is always easier the second time! The first time there may be pangs of conscience, a sense of guilt. But once embarked on this course with constant repetition you get more and more brazen in the attack.

All you have to do is to dissolve organizations and societies and banish and detain the key political workers in these societies. Then miraculously everything is tranquil on the surface.

Then an intimidated press and the government-controlled radio together can regularly sing your praises, and slowly and steadily the people are made to forget the evil things that have already been done, or if these things are referred to again they’re conveniently distorted and distorted with impunity, because there will be no opposition to contradict.”

-Lee Kuan Yew as an opposition PAP member speaking to David Marshall, Singapore Legislative Assembly, Debates, 4 October, 1956

LKY Animal Village … aka singapore.

For most of us, we are the working people driving the economy, like the domestic chickens or cow, breed for their meat or labour work. We live in an invisible cage that is bounded by our liabilities (house loans, cpf) and someone (ISD) always tell us ghost stories to scare us. One of the ghost story says that you would be tortured if you talk bad about the master and his council.

But we live in a knowledge economy, the people can think and don’t like to be slaughter for meat or live in a cage. I see we are gathering masses in the movement to free ourselves. The present dictator style of government has to adapt to us if it wishes to exist in 10 years time. So far it seems to be stubborn to change and thats only increase the movement masses.

Why 10 years? The grand ghost story teller is getting very old and his stories are not convincing any more. He got no successor to his story telling … his son instead is a joker, makes jokes like the meesam got hums :)

To ISD, change your ways for the better before you are make jobless by future singaporean.

The reason why it is applicable to Singapore is the nature of human beings with absolute power. People are the same, for all times and places. No one is good. No one can be trusted. And so if someone offers you a government that depends on you trusting them, then it is Animal Farm all over.

#56
Sorry. It is a sad state of affairs in Singapore. I do not want to prove my sincerity to Singaporeans. They have to prove to themselves what kind of people they are.
——————–
Yes, we are what we are because we do not know otherwise. The education that we have here is heavy on economic intelligence, and lacking on social intelligence. The culture here reinforces values that support selfish and careless economic pursuit as THE way of life.
Mr Tan, I was one of the early signatory in that 1400, and I am hoping that you can be strong enough to influence change here. I also believes that positive and sustainable change should be evolutionary in nature.

34) kongseeme on June 10th, 2009 2.50 pm

Although your insinuations are already been debunked by many,
I would like to ask you,
as a supporter of ‘them’,
are you able to give a totally UNBIASED, non-Partisan, FAIR, HONEST comment on the LOSSES and the non-REPLY?

I wonder if you can reply?

I think 1 question is sufficient for now.

Hi kongseeme #34,

Singapore really corrupt-free? PAP Government really clean? Do you know what the price is for knowing too much? I don’t think there are things you would like to know given that you have to bear the consequence of this knowledge…

56) Tan Kin Lian
///. Many Singaporeans ……. only expect other people to fight for them. They can use strong words and act heroic, under anonymity.////

You echoed my view, which is oft drown by voilent denial and pesronal attacks when anyone speak of such.

Is KopitiamApek a name and not anonymous ?

Are all Anonymous as bad as KopitiamApek and Tan Kin Lian like us to believe ?

Is Tan Kin Lian and KopitiamApek the same in thinking ?

Can both of You show us that You(all) do not criticize, insinuate and slight others in your comments ?

The Poster a primary school pupil seemed to be more reasonable to me.

Hi ah soh,

Posting online anonymously is one thing but there is no substitute for actually standing up in public to fight for one’s beliefs.

Hi Smallvice585;

I do know of Cybernicks that attended many activities including those held at Hong Lim Park and elsewhere.

And I really see no reason why Nick named posters be jeered.

Asking for some basic respect and behaviour is justified.

Thank You for the response.

56) Tan Kin Lian on June 10th, 2009 6.04 pm

//I asked for 100,000 signatures for me to enter into the political arena. I got only 1,400 signatures. Many Singaporeans are too scared to even sign a petition.//

Don’t give up yet. Many people who would like to sign the petition were not even online. You need to have a greater visibility not only among the discerning people online when the time is ripe but also in the heartland where you need to win the bulk of the votes if you are going to beat the incumbent.

You also need to raise money to pay for ads in the msm, TV etc and you cannot do all this by yourself. You need help and a presidential campaign organization.

When you are ready just sound the bugle and many of us will come to help you in your cause. Rest assured.

71) ah soh

If you do not believe what was mentioned is true, than it is perfectly ok. No need to be worked up by it. No need have only posts eching similar supporting.

If you have conviction in what you are doing, what you believe, other’s view are but others view. We hear with an open mind.

Relak brudder.

The pathetic turn ups at HLP is evident of safety in anonimty.
It’s finger-typing good.

1. U hit the nail right on the head.
2. The fear is deep rooted. However, we are seeing a growing legend of younger Singaporeans who are fearlessly patriotic.
3. Don’t give up. The tougher the struggle, the sweeter the success.
4. Things will take a drastic change the moment LKY hits the bucket which will be a few years more. He has managed to etch his brutality onto the subconsciousness of many Singaporeans except the young.

Wait till we see what happens when the TIME is up and the fat lady has sung.
It will happen, just when and how healthy.

Hi Tan Kin Lian

Literature books are so beautifully written,
A beautiful book like this was sadly spoilt by the way it was taught in school, memorising passage and all. It was either my teachers were lousy or I was a lousy student, probably both.

I did not do Animal Farm but I did To Kill A Mocking Bird.

I started to appreciate the book only after watching the movie, with Gegory Peck’s superb potrayal of Atticus. Then I went and buy a copy and read it, from an adult eyes.

Then I saw the animated feature of Animal Farm, and agian it spurred me to read the book.

On whether Singapore is now the Animal Farm, I personally see that the whole political world as a huge recycling Animal Farm.

Based on last sightings, still very healthy. Pink in cheeks.
ok, back to my waiting game.

Mr Tan:

It is very corageous of you to do this analogy. I was thinking about Animal Farm being applicable to Singapore few years back from overseas.

I sensed that there was more to compare and write by you but was restrained in case you will be sued.

Please thread carefully, as the Brave New World may also be applicable.

Lesser Mortal

76) Talents are sufficient we just need to WAIT

For things that are depenant on another thing to happen bvefore it can happen, usually never happens.
Because the other thing is the excuse for the first thing not to happen.

Do or do not, there is no try – Yoda

tell me who is more credible:

somebody who used to work with pap and then became disillusioned and broke ranks,

OR

somebody who used to champion for the people and then got co-opted, then chided the poor for being greedy in asking for more public assistance?

honestly, we need a fresh wind of change. too many injustices in this land.

“the centre cannot hold, things fall apart”…

80) ah soh , aiyoh,
me not irritated with anonymous lah.
except only beacuse so hard to spell.
I also anonmiousy what.

82) Anon

Your view of the world depend on what planet you are looking at it from.

#61 radiffe66

“for the record,

i’m not at all aggreeable to the “selling off of state own companies” aka privatising them like transport, power and healthcare.”

I am with you on this. Transport, power and healthcare services are services that we the public cannot do without and they are, relatively speaking, consistently in high demand. I think the govt privatised them for the reason that it is not worth their efforts to run them and sell them at cost or marginally above cost.

As you may have noticed, the govt wants to make profits like a private business enterprise, with a margin over cost as high as is possible, even going thru the roof if this is achievable.

To all those who think we are living in an actual dictatorship, think again. If what you guys are saying is true, this website would have been shut down as soon as any dissenting views are published. We would have a media blackout of anything that puts the state in a bad light. We are not North Korea and things are not as dire as some of you here claim to be. At least we have Speaker’s Corner, the Internet or even public institutions like our education institutes for us to voice our discontent. We have the power to vote for change.

While some aspects of Animal Farm resembles uncannily with what Singapore was/is like, I would not go so far as to say that we are a communist state ruled by dictators.

Hi Jerome,

Not all dictators run an iron-fisted government. There are pragmatic considerations to take in account of how the government should run and an iron-fisted approach is bad for a country that is completely dependent on external trade. An iron-fisted approach will only lead to economic isolation which is bad for the dictator and of course worse on the People. However, all dictators are known to be very ruthless towards their adversaries.

Hi smallvice585,

I agree. However, it is questionable how many features of dictatorship should be present on a form of governance for it to be considered as dictatorship. I do not hold the view that ruthlessness can be an indicator of dictatorship per se.

Animal Farm has always been my favourite ’story’ book which I studied in school.

All these years, I have always refer Animal Farm to Singapore, the pigs being the MIW. I’m glad that more people are realising it and put a stop to these pigs once and for all.

Singapore belongs to her people, not these pigs nor FTs! And we have no emperor or prince to begin with!

Hi Curious (#17)

Thank you for your excellent examples to the new Commandments.

Hi #2) whjho

TKL:
you did not mentioned about the relevance of public media and propanganda. The MSM and the censorship or un-censorship of ‘good news’

In Animal Farm, the pig Squealer was responsible to manage the propaganda, and to distort the truth.

Is there Karma?
If there is …… why?

Mr. Tan, thank you for the clarifications. I would like to assure you that I have no agenda against you whatsoever and you dont know me. At least now I know the reasons as explained by you.

If you believe that you are against certain policies of the government, wouldnt it be better for you to come up with constructive alternative arguments.

#91 konseemee,

JL here. How are you?
Which law of the universe dictates that when not agreeing must a person come up with alternative solutions?

yours
LJ

Interesting… But what sign on novelties of the news?

To 61#

It is great revelation that LKY understood back in the 50s and then implement his game play in the next 50 years.

WOW, a great strategist and executor with great patience.

No wonder he ruled and still rules.

My admiration.

“You echoed my view, which is oft drown by voilent denial and pesronal attacks when anyone speak of such.”

You are not only getting senile, you are also very vain leh (those that can easily attract goosebumps on others).

Since you are not in violent denial and one of the saints not engaging in personal attacks, strong words and heroic acts, why not you reveal your true identify unlike most of us here who have better reason to write under anonymity.

Remember even foreign prints got sued. This sad state of affair in this country is reason enough to write under anonymity if you have any strong views to the contrary of what the establishment stands for – unless you are writing something very safe like what senile kopitiam apeks of your type will usually do.

Hi #91
If you read my articles and comments in TOC and in my blog, http://www.tankinlian.blogspot.com, you will see many of my alternative policies. They are based on the principles of:

honesty
fairness
public good
courage
positive approach

I believe that the alternative policies can lead to better results and is beneficial to large numbers of people (and not just the privileged few).

“If you believe that you are against certain policies of the government, wouldnt it be better for you to come up with constructive alternative arguments.”

silent answer.

Wouldn’t it be better if those who cannot come up with constructive alternative ideas / actions be replaced by those who can.

Well, I think Singapore is not entirely like the story Animal Farm but then again I know this is also not what the author meant, not in the literal sense.

1 obvious difference is that Our Leading Pig has a farther vision of how this country should be steered and has certain successful guiding economic and political principals to begin with, which unlike Napolean, the Leader pig in Animal Farm, whose visions are rather short termed and self gratifying.

Then perhaps I too could be wrong, perhaps our LP’s intention was self gratifying all along just that singapore was only a means to an end. but if that was the case, he would not need to still be peddaling around the world his influence as well as creating business opportunities for singapore.

Well one thing is clear. He will leave singapore in the hands of a bunch of Yes men who has little understanding of the public weals and are only good at echoing his opinions and orders. And when he is gone, they will become obsolete and hazardous to the country. So, whatever good our LP has done in the past cannot out-weigh the possible harm he is putting us in.

55) Tan Kin Lian on June 10th, 2009 6.04 pm ,

Mr. Tan, you can’t just gave up like that otherwise you are letting the 1400 signatories down. Leader who is qualified in term of academy esp in singapore is the first entry for politic realm. Next thing is the gut and the rest depends on public on how your sincerity and perservarance (of how a leader should be) and win them over which will definitely take time. That is why people like us (non qualify) need people like you (qualification and gut) to represent people. you haven’t even fight the batttle let alone wining the war.

Since you have said how singaporean behave, then the more you work hard for it and prove all of us wrong. Do not blame most of us as situation in singapore politic is in fact pathetic due to lopsided policy and control.

If the late Jayaratman who happened to think like you, then i say….’too bad…let move on and face it for another 50 years to come’. Now is not what singaporean behave matters, it is you who initialy asked for 100,000 signatures and now you think otherwise (even though it only 1400 signed, who knows? it may take time to come for the rest).

I sincerely hope that you have another second thought about it.

Hi Mr. Tan,

I really respect the work that you do, but I think Singapore’s comparisons to Animal Farm are far too dramatic and simplistic ;) Animal Farm was written by Orwell to satirize post revolution Russia in the early 20th Century mainly to attack the feasibility of communism, and the corruption of Stalin (aka Snowball, as you have pointed out).

Singapore suffers from a very different set of problems, but certainly not the problems of communist Russia. For this reason, I think a new political metaphor is more appropriate.

Mr Tan, you make good sense.I believe the time for change has come. LKY and his band of stalwarts did their best and achieved much in the first three decades of Singapore’s development. The subsequent period of the last two decades has seen mainly holding action — how not to lose track amid the economic storms. Without too much success. The the bulk of the populace will readily agree that life has become harder. Having to work beyond 65 just to make ends meet is not what many of us aspire to. But it looks like many of us will have to accept this harsh reality — except for a privileged few.
Will the PAP continue to provide good governance? Perhaps, it can. Quite likely, it will not be able to, unless it goes through a dramatic phase of reform. The presence of a strong opposition is one hope for a better performance from government, whoever forms the government of the day.
Mr Tan, please have patience and fortitude. The groundswell will come. It has started with 1,400 signatures.

“For things that are depenant on another thing to happen bvefore it can happen, usually never happens.
Because the other thing is the excuse for the first thing not to happen.”

sounds familiar leh. how about our economy will only recover when usa recovers. what a way to have you cake and still eat it hoh.

http://www.reuters.com/article/economicNews/idUSSIN41621120090321

Apek, you should stick to your kopitiam

88) Tan Kin Lian on June 11th, 2009 6.01 am

//Hi Curious (#17) Thank you for your excellent examples to the new Commandments.//

You are welcome. Napoleon has issued more new Commandments for the Animal Farm :

1 Singaporeans are good but cheap FTs are even better for our economy.

2 Remember retirement homes are cheaper in JB and Batam.

3 We always extol the spirit of Meritocracy except when it comes to GRCs.

4 Voting is our constitutional right & compulsory but all bets are off in walkovers.

5 Electoral boundaries are made of rubber-bands to better serve you the people.

6 Gambling is bad but not 4D, toto, horse racing and in our very own 2 casinos.

7 Our reserves are for rainy day, not for investing long term in zombie banks.

8 Give the govt 7% GST and we shall give you some back. GST means “give some trust” lah.

9 Our health-care is best in the region, that’s why it is so darn expensive.

10 Don’t stop at two. Whoever told you that ought to be excoriated.

11 Winning our 2008 Olympic silver medal was great but no thanks to the coach.

12 COE keeps our car population in check. It does not mean “Cee pun Or Ee”.

very insightful comments Mr Tan.

this story and your analysis is similar to the following quote:

artists paint lies to tell the truth
politicians paint lies to hide the truth

It’s high time that Singaporeans should demand more transparency and power from the govt and not just let them dictate.

To Mr Tan Kin Lian,

Are you discouraged by your miserable success rate of 0.014% (1,400 signatures out of the 100,000 asked for) or by the apparent apathy or cowardice of most Singaporeans?

Let me reassure you that there are a lot of well-educated and smart people in Singapore who are patriotic and have a genuine feel for the people. These people keep a low profile because their careers and positions make them vulnerable to vindictive reprisals. Please be more understanding of their difficult position.

Since you are financially secure and comfortably retired, it may be more feasible for you to enter politics. If you had made the decision to take the plunge, there is no allowance for half-hearted measures. You should get hold of a bunch of high calibre and other like-minded honest individuals to work for the good of Singapore. You can’t do it all alone.

Just be warned that you must be ready for pain and suffering.

#55) TKL #98) mike

If you ask LHL to put aside his current authority, you think he will still get 100,000 signatures?

I can bet with my HDB flat he will not get 100,000 signatures.

My personal opinion….
If you hold the PM appointment (through whatever means, just like holding the post of CEO of TH,)
1) people will come to you because you can make them rich.
2) people will be submissive to you simply you are holding the office
3) people will vote for you becuase they just follow the crowd
4) people will show up in numbers because they are in uniforms
5) people will always behave like normal people- kiasi and naive
6) people will always commit the same mistake – not being proactive.
….
…

You have my support, wish you the best for your effort!

Mr Tan,

Didn’t know about your petition for signatures. Would not have signed if I had. You should not be in politics if you are looking for signs of a sure win before you take the plunge. It’s a telling that you have made such a request, even; that as a potential leader, you have made size of support your central go/no-go criteria. I suppose your convictions are not strong enough on their own to drive you on. That is a trait you share with me and the vast majority of Singaporeans, no Singaporean can conscionably fault you for this, but it unfortunately does not elevate you above the people you would lead.

I think history tells us that many so-called revolution started off having good intention, just like the beginning of Animal Farm story. Later along the road, we want to eliminate disagreeing voices. Finally, we want we to be above the law and stay in power. When we are at the end of the road, we want out legacy to continue by our off springs.

Sounded familiar? We, Singaporean, have been warned by the opposite voices against the PAP since the beginning. But we have chosen prosperity and good lives rather than taking head to the warnings.

The moment a government try to eliminate opposition voices by using an iron hand method …. it has the danger and intention of becoming a one-party ruling government. A one-party ruling government will eventually face the danger of becoming a one-man ruling dynasty.

Singapore has become a one-man ruling dynasty where the media is controlled, news are tightened, fear is being propagated, lies are being told, people’s wealth are being robbed, lives are being devastated…. etc. Doesn’t that sound an alarm now?

106) A&E on June 11th, 2009 12.54 pm

//You should not be in politics if you are looking for signs of a sure win before you take the plunge. It’s a telling that you have made such a request, even; that as a potential leader, you have made size of support your central go/no-go criteria.//

I don’t agree. IMHO, Mr Tan made the right moves by doing his recce and his due diligence and accessing his odds because an electoral ” war” is not about who is right but who is left standing when the battle is over and the votes are counted.

In the “Art of War”, Sun Tze once said that ” Good generals put themselves BEYOND the possibility of defeat first and then wait for an opportunity to defeat the enemy.”

I think that is what Mr Tan is doing or ought to be doing before he enters the fray.

Sorry, Mr Tan Kin Lian,

Correction for post #104, your success rate is 1.4% not 0.014% (typo error).

Curious,

Consider the following two scenarios.

1. A potential leader is convinced he has what it takes to lead, has a vision of what he wants to achieve. Based on his beliefs he decides to enter into politics. He then goes about garnering support, selling his point of view and proposing his alternatives. He has decided that there are things that must be done, and he goes about doing it.

2. A potential leader first canvasses to see if he has the signed support of numerous others. If he does, in sufficient numbers, he goes in. If not, that is alright, too. He has decided that maybe there are things to be done, but these are not essential.

I would agree with you that the second way is a more pragmatic approach to things – be sure you have the votes first, don’t risk it. But I am also a little sick and also wary of leaders who would put the vote before all else. And politics is a risky business. How would a leader who wants to enter politics in a risk-free manner make decisions, when his political survival is at risk?

Everyone has a good reason for not taking up the cudgel in Singapore – too rich, too poor, too young, too old. If Mr Tan is not willing to take on risk or fight a prolonged and uphill battle, well, he could also do a lot of good building up a civil awareness and action. Such as writing for TOC, setting up and running a NGO. But until I can be certain that he is committed to being a politician (and a politician of convictions I support), I cannot promise him my vote.

the other orwell novel, 1984, seems more relevant to our autocracy.

110) A&E on June 11th, 2009 2.39 pm

//I would agree with you that the second way is a more pragmatic approach to things – be sure you have the votes first, don’t risk it//

Thank you, If you study the 2008 US Presidential campaigns you will notice that was exactly what transpired when a lot of potential candidates decided wisely to step aside after one or two primaries, especially when the polls showed that they did have a ghost of chance either against Obama or against McCain. It was not a matter of risking it but a matter of not expecting a miracle to happen. The maxim is that you cannot get water out of a rock !

If the ground is not sweet due to the deepening recession in Singapore and jobs are lost, SMEs are losing money and people are clamoring for a change that is probably the best time to go for it in, especially if the polls shows Mr Tan is ahead of the incumbent.

Remember one is running not only against the awesome PAP electoral machinery but also against the msm, allegedly controlled by them.

//And politics is a risky business. How would a leader who wants to enter politics in a risk-free manner make decisions, when his political survival is at risk?//

That is a good question and one that should be asked of the many non-minority rookies, in the 7 GRCs that had a walkover, who were ushered into Parliament without any baptism of fire, by the PAP heavyweights. It was a risk-free event.

So if its good for the goose why not for the gander?

//If Mr Tan is not willing to take on risk or fight a prolonged and uphill battle, well, he could also do a lot of good building up a civil awareness and action. Such as writing for TOC, setting up and running a NGO//

I think he has had a 30 year dream career in a higher echelon level in NTUC and his reputation is impeccable. He also gained a lot of visibility when he stepped forward to help those who fell on falling knives, investing in Lehmen Bros mini bonds.

He is now a columnist at TOC which is a leading online rival to the MSM, though he needs to be careful what he writes as it may come back to haunt him. Yes I think you are right that maybe he could be more visible running an NGO too and be seen and heard positively, not only here but in overseas media.

But ultimately it is up to Mr Tan to plan his campaign carefully to put himself BEYOND the possibility of defeat, before he takes the plunge and I wish him the best of Irish luck.

He has my vote and boy, if I do vote it will be the first time in donkey years and I am fed up with the walkover syndrome that is so pervasive here.

errata : “especially when the polls showed that they did NOT have a ghost of chance either against Obama or against McCain.”

“If the ground is not sweet due to the deepening recession in Singapore and jobs are lost, SMEs are losing money and people are clamoring for a change that is probably the best time to go for it , especially if the polls shows Mr Tan is ahead of the incumbent.”

Mr Tan,
We know you and we know you are a good, capable and responsible man. But I do not see the need for you to obtain the 100k signatures. It is not necessary and a waste of time. For the 1400 who came forward to sign I thank them for their effort. Whether you get 100k or not, frankly it doesn’t matter. If you are keen you will go ahead regardless of anything.

I believe you will make good contribution to Singapore.

Anyway voting is secret. I am confident you can win. Your views are balanced and not self serving.

55) Tan Kin Lian on June 10th, 2009 6.04 pm

“Hi Mike (#53)

I asked for 100,000 signatures for me to enter into the political arena. I got only 1,400 signatures. Many Singaporeans are too scared to even sign a petition. They only expect other people to fight for them. They can use strong words and act heroic, under anonymity.

Sorry. It is a sad state of affairs in Singapore. I do not want to prove my sincerity to Singaporeans. They have to prove to themselves what kind of people they are.”

Mr Tan, why must you insist on getting 100,000 votes before you consider standing up to be counted? Are you not already convinced enough by all the rubbish that they have been dishing out for so long? Don’t you think that this country of ours is worth saving and that the extra effort on your part is required to make the necessary changes? Don’t you think that having benefited from Singapore it is time for you to plough back some of what you have reaped for the good of all Singaporeans? I feel that the 1400 signatures is sufficient “quorum” for you to start your engine and get cracking if you are serious in what you have written so far. And, I wish you all the best.

One more thing, you are already 1400 votes up on all the other politicians in Singapore (world?). None of them got a single vote before they entered politics!

Mr Tan

I pray you will keep well, and not get into trouble for your vocalising our feelings.

Thank you for standing up and be counted.

I pray you will stand at a single seat ward, and no other opposition will create a 3 corner fight with you.

Yes, we need your voice in parliament. Not as NMP or NCMP.

God bless you.

114) Thinktok on June 11th, 2009 4.54 pm

I do agree wit you…. but just a slight correction.

In case you are not kept up to date, In Singapore, voting is not secret. Since 1997 our voting slip has been numbered. In the beginning the public was told that it was used for security purpose, but later the PAP use it to find out who voted or not voted for them and they justified it by saying they want to find out how they can serve those who did not vote for them better. Later they used the info to decide the priority for HDB upgrading. GCT has openly admit that they know who voted and who did not vote for them and that it is okay to use that knowledge to pull votes and also to draw the constituencies boundaries to their benefits.

So, election is no longer a secret in Singapore. This is how election has degraded in Singapore.

Curious,

The primaries are an integral part of the US Presidential Election process. Canvassing for signatures is not. The candidates for the two main caucuses were committed politicians, committed in the sense that they were senators and governors and fulltime politicians, though they might have had business concerns. Mr Tan is asking for endorsement before even committing to being a politician. Do you see the difference I am trying to illustrate?

I do not see the relevance of the MSM in the decision by anyone to run for office in Singapore. It is a piece on the board, something any opposition member would have to contend with, manoeuvre around, but no opposition would be fighting the ST head on.

You imply that Mr Tan wants to, or should be given the opportunity to, enter politics riskfree, with a mandate before he even embarks on this path, simply because existing PAP MP’s under the GRC system already do so? People who are tired of geese are not going to be very well served by ganders. If Mr Tan is serious about leading Singaporeans in any political capacity outside of PAP, he would have to be different from the PAP leaders we have now; otherwise, I don’t see the point of going through the motions of changing the soup but not the medicine.

I am sure Mr Tan’s credentials and record are impressive. Kudos to him for his work with the Lehman notes victims. I also give him the benefit of doubt, in that he focused on helping relatively wealthy investors seek redress for their bad investments, rather than other segments of society, simply because that is his area of expertise.

Overall, it seems your interpretation of Mr Tan’s strategy is as such:

1. First Mr Tan makes sure he is financially secure and professionally retired.
2. Then he makes sure he has ground support and is “beyond possibility of defeat”.
3. Then he runs.

I am sorry, but to me, that does not sound to me like a very people-oriented motivation for wanting office. I do understand though, that this is your interpretation of things.

Mr Tan Kin Lian is not the one on trial here. The PAP is.

Some have tried to paint Mr Tan KL as a sour grape after losing favour with the PAP but I think he explained well enough that he wasn’t afraid to lose favour especially when the original focus of the government to serve the people became one that serves its own.

I salute Mr Tan KL. Singapore would not be what it is today if we had seen more Tan Kin Lians along the way, who dare to take on the government by asking all the right questions. The government can continue to ignore him and avoid him but it cannot do this forever. The day will come when it will have to account to the people.

And when that day comes, we will have to thank people like Mr Tan KL, JBJ, Siew KH for keeping the flame alive, even if it is just a flicker.

Dear Mr Tan, thank you very much for your article.

I too think that SG is degenerating.

1. Our children’s names are now hanyupinyin. Is it inorder to let a certain group of FT integrate into our society?
2. We are told to give up our dialects. Compare to Hongkong people are still speaking cantonese despite speak mandarin campaign. They are preserving their roots and we are throwing away ours.
3. Mothers are encouraged back into the workforce even when data proves when both parents are working, children tends to end up problematic.
4. HDB is supposed to be regulating price. But everyone knows what is happening. Same thing with NTUC fair price. Prices of some items are even more ex than Seng Shiong.
5. We are buying medals and extremely proud of “OUR” achievement.

Many of us here can easily name more examples of things gone wrong in our society.

I think SG can only be saved by elites. By those elites, who really care about the well being of S’porean. These elites could get themselves into trouble in the process. They also faced an uphill process because of our press. Mr Tan is one of these elites. I salute you Sir.

Animal Farm has a lot of Animals.
But whatever animal is not the issue except 1 animal , the T-Rex.
ONLY! when t-rex has become extinct will there be a new world beginning.
There is 1 t-rex. Fortunately, there cannot be 2 of it. So, as soon as it goes down, it is officially EXTINCT in every sense of the word. It cannot be cloned. Lightning cannot strike twice. Extinction is scheduled but the date is unknown.

And so we WAIT as nothing will work. absolutely nothing based on my on-the-ground observations.

Oh my goodness, imagine all the excitement that awaits us upon the extinction.
Champagne for all. on the house.

118) A&E

“changing the soup but not the medicine”

I just love your quote.
With no reference to the author of this article, but reference to many posts here , your quote “changing the soup but not the medicine” describes it so accurately.
these posts ranting and complaining for wanting to change what they truly believe to be a hopeless dysfunctional gahmen to other than what it is not now, but have no clue what to change to.
I am not saying that the gahmen now is great, but won’t kicking it out without any clue of what they want to fill the void only guarantee one thing – successive iterations of Animal Farm.

///They only expect other people to fight for them///

Mr Tan,

“He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious.
Thus it is that in war the victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory. ‘ – Sun Zi

That is the sad situation here.

They sit back behind the safety of anonymity at their keybords, and expect you do the dirty work. If you win , they all appear, if not, they forget you and they back to their keyboard.

Many people here idolises AASK, TWP, JBJ as their heroes, hopefully to kick out what they truly believe to be a hopeless dysfunctional gahmen , without having a clue what these chaps will do if they come into power, just like Animal Farm.
They are so driven by wanting to have a change, and change they will get, but what will they get after the change?

It is far from perfect nor ideal the deal we are getting from gahmen today, but if this bunch of ranters and complainers wants change for change sake, they may get a change just like Animal Farm.

Of course, status quo is no good, change is needed, but I wonder if this is the way.

“I am not saying that the gahmen now is great, but won’t kicking it out without any clue of what they want to fill the void only guarantee one thing – successive iterations of Animal Farm.”

Be realistic lah. We are aiming to kick out the incumbent party. We just want more opposition voices in the parliament at all times. And that should help to prevent Animal Farm.

118) A&E on June 11th, 2009 7.58 pm

//Do you see the difference I am trying to illustrate?//

Yes I do but you missed my point. In the US, if you are Joe the CEO, you won’t get very far in the political process unless you backed by very hard-nosed apparatchiks and back room boys, mentors, big money and on occasions even help from even members of Bohemia Grove, the Freemasons, AIPAC, the Illuminati and the Bible Belt.

Obama won not because he had the most desirable manifesto and is able to cure America’s culture of consuming the seed corn and spending way beyond its means and certainly more than it produces but because his campaign managed to get very organized by the back-room boys and mentors vis-a-vis McCain’s and he raised the most amount of money through the internet, among the young idealists who are color-blind. He is also a charismatic speaker.

In the excruciatingly close Minnesota senatorial race alone the two main rival candidates “spent US$50 million (Sing$74 million) so far on their campaigns and legal fights over the November 2008 election.” The winner, just recently decided by the court 6 months after the fact, is an ex stand-up comedian who beat a two term Republican Senator. Where do you think he go all that money, organizational wizardry and backing from?

In Singapore a candidate must first have the ” right credentials” before he gets pass the presidential approval process. Being a politician is NOT a prerequisite.

Mr Tan qualifies to run because he used to run an organization with a turnover of over x dollars required by the watchdogs or shall I say “watchpigs”.

//I do not see the relevance of the MSM in the decision by anyone to run for office in Singapore.//

Then you have not been following the parochial reporting by the MSM over the recent Aware leadership tussle. Enough said.

See Part II

Be realistic lah. We are NOT aiming to kick out the incumbent party. We just want more opposition voices in the parliament at all times. And that should help to prevent Animal Farm.

118) A&E on June 11th, 2009 7.58 pm

Part II

//If Mr Tan is serious about leading Singaporeans in any political capacity outside of PAP, he would have to be different from the PAP leaders we have now; otherwise, I don’t see the point of going through the motions of changing the soup but not the medicine.//…A&E

All I can say is that the taste of the pudding is the eating and what you see is what you get. He is as different from the PAP candidate as chalk and cheese and vice versa. The elixir he promises to bring with him is a mixture of “courage, positive approach, honesty, fairness and public good ” as no matter who forms the govt of the day he will have the “second key” tucked away in his safe, as the august guardian of the people’s reserves.

//Overall, it seems your interpretation of Mr Tan’s strategy is as such:

1. First Mr Tan makes sure he is financially secure and professionally retired.
2. Then he makes sure he has ground support and is “beyond possibility of defeat”. 3. Then he runs..//

No 1 is more like your own interpretation but it is almost a truism. Unlike politics in the West, where entering the political arena is not a matter of fearing for your future economic rice bowl and personal comfort, here if you even utter a nuance you could end up having to sell your house to pay for damages.

Here it is a a deadly serious matter and like the saying goes ” a wise rabbit has to have one entrance but more than 3 exits.”

So if any “plebeian” wants to engage “Napoleon” then being financially secure in No 1 on the list is essential, but one does not necessarily have to wait till one is too long in the tooth to do so. JBJ’s son Kenneth is a prime example.

No 2 is the strategy mapped out by Sun Tzu and he wrote the “Art of War”.

No 3 is a decision Mr Tan has to make on his own, after weighing the odds.

Mr Tan
I am one of the 1400 persons who signed your petition. You already have more than 100,000 singnatures as I have written in TOC that one signature represents 99 other citizens who are still fearful of coming forward to support the opposition.

I believe you could easily obtain 100,000 votes should you decide to stand for the Presidential Election. I think you are the only person from all those who dare to post comments on TOC, who qualifies to contest the PE.

125) Small Time Businessman //////// Be realistic lah. We are NOT aiming to kick out the incumbent party. We just want more opposition voices in the parliament at all times. And that should help to prevent Animal Farm.//////////

Since you are a businessman, then you should understand that it will just move from sole proprietorship to partnership, and that is no guarantee to prevent Animal Farm, they could also collude together. sole proprietorship or partnership both can turn corrupt.

127) Edward

///I have written in TOC that one signature represents 99 other citizens who are still fearful of coming forward to support the opposition.////

How did you arrive at this conclusion?
Talk about democracy, you are represnting 99 others who did not say they want to be represented by you.

#129,
why u so no manners to Edward? how much losses in total do you know?
if u say you know, can you prove what you say and say?

do you still have conscion?

Curious,

///Yes I do but you missed my point. In the US, if you are Joe the CEO, you won’t get very far in the political process unless you backed by very hard-nosed apparatchiks and back room boys, mentors, big money and on occasions even help from even members of Bohemia Grove, the Freemasons, AIPAC, the Illuminati and the Bible Belt.///

So your point is that winning in politics in Singapore is a matter of wealth, connection and the right credentials, just as you think it is in the US? Well, why then does Mr Tan need to ask for signatures from the people? He should be asking for donations and endorsement from big companies and the churches.

/// In Singapore a candidate must first have the ” right credentials” before he gets pass the presidential approval process. Being a politician is NOT a prerequisite. ///

Again, why then is he wasting time canvassing signatures. If he has all the right trappings deemed essential by the government, go for it, run for President. Why does Mr Tan need signatures?

The qualifying criteria set by the government is not the same as the qualifying criteria that each individual voter has for casting his vote for anyone politician. Mine is that a candidate shows some concern for skin other than his own, for interests and well-being, other than his own, who shows some conviction, not someone who says “My convictions require 100000 signatures before they will be put into action” or that “I need to make sure I am absolutely safe and secure before I go in”.
——————————

Politics in the west can be as dirty as anywhere else. If as your say, Mr Tan needs to feel absolutely safe before running for office, does he also need to be made to feel absolutely safe in the duration of the post before he will discharge his duties properly? If he is president, what sort of personal security will make his an really independent second key. If you are so fearful of financial ruin that the PAP can wrought on you, how much do you need, to be secure? A billion bucks will put you beyond the PAP’s reach? If that is truly such a great consideration, I don’t believe even Mr Tan has enough money to make running for office a financially sound move for him. People like Sylvia Lim, LTK, KJ and SKH must be richer than I thought!

Bottomline is, Curious (and Mr Tan, too, if he cares to clarify),

If you are fearful of the PAP and asks for a bunch of signatures to make you feel safe, what justification can you have to label shame and cowardice upon the non-signers?

130) A&E on June 12th, 2009 12.07 am

//Curious, So your point is that winning in politics in Singapore is a matter of wealth, connection and the right credentials, just as you think it is in the US? Well, why then does Mr Tan need to ask for signatures from the people? He should be asking for donations and endorsement from big companies and the churches.//

Hello, I think you got that all back to front. In the US you need big money, organisational wizardry and backing from the big boys., Hollywood style.

In Singapore you need a spine, financial security and votes from the heartland.

Mr Tan is adopting Sun Tze’s strategy of putting himself in a position beyond the possibility of defeat before he makes up his mind. That is very wise. It’s all about horses for courses if you are a betting man, which I presume you are obviously not.

//Again, why then is he wasting time canvassing signatures. If he has all the right trappings deemed essential by the government, go for it, run for President. Why does Mr Tan need signatures?//

See above.

//The qualifying criteria set by the government is not the same as the qualifying criteria that each individual voter has for casting his vote for anyone politician.//

That is very true but people power behaves like no power on earth and when the time has arrived even dictators like Ferdinand Marcos and Suharto get swept aside into the scrap heap of history. I witnessed this in Manila first hand.

//Mine is that a candidate shows some concern for skin other than his own, for interests and well-being, other than his own, who shows some conviction, not someone who says “My convictions require 100000 signatures before they will be put into action” or that “I need to make sure I am absolutely safe and secure before I go in//

Then you should vote for Phua Chu Kang.

//If as your say, Mr Tan needs to feel absolutely safe before running for office, does he also need to be made to feel absolutely safe in the duration of the post before he will discharge his duties properly?//

Since under the constitution, nothing moves without the President’s assent I think he should be able to sleep very well at night with the second key in the safe in the basement.

//If you are so fearful of financial ruin that the PAP can wrought on you, how much do you need, to be secure?//

I am not fearful of Napoleon’s dogs as I am not entering the political arena.

//People like Sylvia Lim, LTK, KJ and SKH must be richer than I thought!//

To know the answer you should ask them yourself.

131) A&E on June 12th, 2009 12.39 am

//Bottomline is, Curious (and Mr Tan, too, if he cares to clarify), If you are fearful of the PAP and asks for a bunch of signatures to make you feel safe, what justification can you have to label shame and cowardice upon the non-signers?//

I don’t recall making that statement. Maybe you can refresh my memory?

I’d rather you rebut the points, or agree. Looping words meaninglessly together, slipping in oblique insults wherever you can does nothing to convince me – I suppose you do have a case, and that is, Mr Tan is a leader worthy of following. But, if sarcasm is what lifts your skirts, oh well, I’d oblige this one time:

OIC! All that talk about the US election was merely to demonstrate breadth of intellect and scope of understanding, but had nothing to do with singapore as far as is concerned. That is why the SG/US situation could variously be like and unlike, simultaneously. I am so sorry for misunderstanding you. I see now, and do agree. That was impressive.

///In singapore you need a spine/// – composed of 100000 signatures? He supposedly has all the trappings for running. Why does he need signatures? Why does he need votes running for president?

Kinda lost me with your Phua Chu Kang bit. Was that meant to be constructive?

Your faith in the constitutional protection for the president moves me. All the talk about Mr Nathan’s second key, initiated by Ong Teng Cheong, no less, must have been a waste of time. Let Nathan keep the seat.

The electorate thank you for not considering entering politics at this moment. That state of happy equilibrium should be maintained for as long as possible.

“sole proprietorship or partnership both can turn corrupt.”

Agree, but which is easier to corrupt? If you think there is no difference, then I take my hats off you. You win.

Nothing in this world is perfect, but we still have to strive for excellence nevertheless.

I ask for 100,000 signatures for the reasons set out here:
http://theonlinecitizen.com/2008/11/100000-signatures-so-more-people-will-step-forward/

If you wish to help to get signatures, you can go to this website:
http://civicadvocator.net/

We can see some recent manifestations of Animal Farm in Singapore:

- Police escorts clearing the road for ministars at the expense of other road users
- Immediate prosecution of people who threathen MPs while common Singaporeans need to raise a magistrate complaint unless they are beaten up and seriously injured.

Anymore to add?

137 ) Veefer

“Anymore to add?”

You forgot to mention swine flu.

Dear Mr TKL,
I highly respect an individual who willing to step forward despite being one of them before.

Being inside the circle for decades, I wonder if you can use some of the knowledge about these people to come up a strategy ?

For example, maybe you understand exactly the psychology behind, the reasons behind and why people ignore the flaws. and continue to sup them.

Lets progress towards the path of Justice and Equality so as to achieve.

regards

Insidejober

“Many people here idolises AASK, TWP, JBJ as their heroes, hopefully to kick out what they truly believe to be a hopeless dysfunctional gahmen , without having a clue what these chaps will do if they come into power, just like Animal Farm.”

Kick out ? Like that meh. A lot of people here may have better brain cells than your senile head.

“They are so driven by wanting to have a change, and change they will get, but what will they get after the change?”

People have their families here and they are not as senile as you when it comes to consequences as regards change.

You should stick to your kopitiam.

“The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.” [Martin Luther King, Jr.]

If Tan Kin Lian or for that matter, anybody else, is willing to stand up as a candidate for a political position against the PAP, I shall be happy to cast my vote for TKL or for this other person.

I am willing to take my chances, as to whether my against-PAP candidate will be productive. I have had enough of PAP trash and I want to see a change in our govt. As long as there is an opportunity to chip away at the PAP trash, I am happy to go for it.

Me too, any opposition candidate basically will get my vote.
singapore opposition candidates are the cleanest in the whole world.
every 5 years i can decide if i still want them.
So, there is no worries.
i want to give opposition a chance.
I want honesty.

//I’d rather you rebut the points, or agree. Looping words meaninglessly together, slipping in oblique insults wherever you can does nothing to convince me //

There is a saying that “when a mind is closed no amount of convincing will be enough and when a book is closed it is no more than a block of wood”.

//I suppose you do have a case, and that is, Mr Tan is a leader worthy of following. //

And I hope you will change your mind and vote for him at the right time.

//But, if sarcasm is what lifts your skirts, oh well, I’d oblige this one time://

Thank you but only girls and the Prince of Wales, when he is visiting Balmoral, Castle, wear skirts. Anyway sarcasm falls off my shoulder like water on a duck’s back.

//OIC! All that talk about the US election was merely to demonstrate breadth of intellect and scope of understanding, but had nothing to do with singapore as far as is concerned. That is why the SG/US situation could variously be like and unlike, simultaneously. //

Huh?

//I am so sorry for misunderstanding you.//

No drama Rama. No one is perfect. Contradiction is allowed in the real world.

// I see now, and do agree. That was impressive.//

Why, thank you.

///In singapore you need a spine/// – composed of 100000 signatures? He supposedly has all the trappings for running. Why does he need signatures? Why does he need votes running for president?//

Let me untangle the imbroglio for you. Firstly, Singapore is spelt with a capital “S” if you don’t mind. Secondly a spine is a backbone and in martial art terms it means “courage.” Thirdly, see TKL’s rationale for the 100k signatures. (136 Tan Kin Lian)

//Kinda lost me with your Phua Chu Kang bit. Was that meant to be constructive?//

To the extent that he is a contractor by profession, no. But if you want to really know that was a polite way of saying “cest la vie.”

//Your faith in the constitutional protection for the president moves me.//

If the constitution cannot protect him then I am sure he can always fall back on our doctrine of Total Defence.

// All the talk about Mr Nathan’s second key, initiated by Ong Teng Cheong, no less, must have been a waste of time. Let Nathan keep the seat.//

Policies in Singapore are all carefully thought through and cannot therefore be regarded as “ a waste of time.”

//The electorate thank you for not considering entering politics at this moment. That state of happy equilibrium should be maintained for as long as possible.//

That is a cheap shot but we won’t hold it against you since you are also in the same boat and the feeling is mutual. (See 106 A&E).

“// All the talk about Mr Nathan’s second key, initiated by Ong Teng Cheong, no less, must have been a waste of time. Let Nathan keep the seat.//

Policies in Singapore are all carefully thought through and cannot therefore be regarded as “ a waste of time.””

Generally yes. But read again, in the context of this second key and the whole idea of ELECTED (EMPHASIS INTENDED) presidency. of course, it has been THOUGHT through and of course all very CAREFULLY.

144) are you curious enough on June 12th, 2009 12.33 pm

//Generally yes. But read again, in the context of this second key and the whole idea of ELECTED (EMPHASIS INTENDED) presidency. of course, it has been THOUGHT through and of course all very CAREFULLY.//

I think the distinction between the second key and the elected presidency has been blurred because no election was held recently for lack of a “suitable” opposition candidate. So you can hardly blame the policies if the spirit was not willing and folks preferred to stay focused in their own comfort zones.

But not anymore. Mr Tan is suitably qualified and I hope he gets his 100 k signatures and then stand for the next presidential election. Then I can cast my vote at long last.

A Petition is only meaningful IF and WHEN near to 100% of the voters are aware of this thingy and given time and information to assess and decide.

Mr TKL could have gotten 100K signatures IF and WHEN there is about 100% awareness. Most still live in a well or a house call Oblivion. They never heard of TKL.

121) KopitiamApek on June 11th, 2009 9.43 pm
“… – successive iterations of Animal Farm.”

That is why I think the most powerful post in a democracy usually have limited terms.

“lack of a “suitable” opposition candidate”
“spirit was not willing”
“folks preferred to stay focused in their own comfort zones.”

the inverted commas on the word “suitable” is apt.

whose spirit are you referring to. just need clarification.

folks preferred ? you made it sound that folks could have any say or any iota of effect in this BS whether it is about the sanctity of either the second key or the election itself. they have practised “castration” to a fine art and have only recently opened up HLG to whom credit is to be given is still debatable. i assume the folks mentioned are the normal folks you are talking about.

148) are you curious enough on June 12th, 2009 2.24 pm

//the inverted commas on the word “suitable” is apt.//

If you can read between the lines why the bellicosity? I didn’t make the rules!

//whose spirit are you referring to. just need clarification.//

Figure it out yourself. Its all there for everyone to see.

//folks preferred ? you made it sound that folks could have any say or any iota of effect in this BS //

If Mr Tan did not believe he has a chance to challenge the incumbent why bother taking the trouble to try to garner 100 k signatures? Do you think he has a propensity to waste his time? Why be cynical? Go and roll over and pretend to play dead then if you think its all over bar the shouting!

//whether it is about the sanctity of either the second key or the election itself. they have practised “castration” to a fine art.//

So all the more try to get out of bed and vote for Mr Tan at the appropriate time.

//and have only recently opened up HLG to whom credit is to be given is still debatable//

The Hong Leong Group? Sorry , I don’t follow the saga.

//i assume the folks mentioned are the normal folks you are talking about.//

Are there any more normal folks around these days, if as you implied, we have been all neutered? Go figure.

Taxpayer #71

How abt giving yr name so that TKL can contact you when he sounds the bugle — you wrote

When you are ready just sound the bugle and many of us will come to help you in your cause. Rest assured.”

148) are you curious enough on June 12th, 2009 2.24 pm

//the inverted commas on the word “suitable” is apt.//

If you can read between the lines why the bellicosity? I didn’t make the rules!

//whose spirit are you referring to. just need clarification.//

Figure it out yourself as you can read between the lines.

//folks preferred ? you made it sound that folks could have any say or any iota of effect in this BS //

Then are you implying that Mr Tan is wasting his time trying to collect 100 k signatures?

//whether it is about the sanctity of either the second key or the election itself. they have practised “castration” to a fine art.//

So lets roll over and pretend to play dead when the election comes around? Is that your advice/

//and have only recently opened up HLG to whom credit is to be given is still debatable. //

I have no idea about the Hong Leong Group Saga if that is what you mean.

//i assume the folks mentioned are the normal folks you are talking about//

Since you implied that we have all been neutered can we still be normal? Go figure.

I always wonder, given TKL’s knowledge of the ‘workings’ and the characters of the people ‘in there’, it would be so exciting IF TKL is voted in as either MP or President. I suspect we can see a lot of interesting things to come, IF he gets mandate.

Also excitement could come IF either TKL or LSH gets to scrutinise the book of ‘excitement’.

May the Truth and Honesty be the guiding light to achieve prosperity, justice and equality for all and a 1st world nation with tip top quality of life.

Yes, we can! —- Obama

regards
Lee FATT Yew

“If you can read between the lines why the bellicosity? I didn’t make the rules!”
that we know. so the inverted commas are still apt.

“Figure it out yourself as you can read between the lines.”
should have pumped you earlier by making some hasty assumption without asking for clarification.

“Then are you implying that Mr Tan is wasting his time trying to collect 100 k signatures?”
now you should read clearly not between the lines. you should master your curiosity better. normal folks I wrote.

“So lets roll over and pretend to play dead when the election comes around? Is that your advice.”
did I say so or you are playing and pretending to be dead or dumb. so many guys who have fought hard fairly have been “neutered”.

“I have no idea about the Hong Leong Group Saga if that is what you mean.”
well, you are sure dumb (not playing dumb).

“Since you implied that we have all been neutered can we still be normal? Go figure.”
I rest my case.

wudang10 @18 wrote: ” So what can be changed?”

Basics:-

1. A democratically elected govt: Bring back the single seat constituencies. Get rid of numbering ballot papers so that voting can be secret.

2. Reform ISA: Cannot have detention without trial. So that it is not abused for ruling party for suppressing opposition.

3. Reform democracy: Free the media.

4. Revise Ministerial positions (eg do we need MM, SM, 2 DPMs etc)

5. Revise Ministerial appointment policies: Eg no son report to father, wife indirectly accountable to husband, ex-military men must compete with other applicants for senior positions, no automatic postings.

5. Revise Ministers salaries

6. Restrict Immigration policy for work

6. Introduce concrete plans for the welfare of disabled and sick elderly people

7. Reform education system: To develope and nurture all skills and abilities instead of providing just the cream for civil service.

8. Privatise (really privatise, no link to Govt) ‘businesses’.

Which country’s govt model can we follow and still be successful?”
Do we need to answer this question as this stage?

152) are you curious enough on June 12th, 2009 3.25 pm

//that we know. so the inverted commas are still apt.//

Your infamous inverted commas is one thing but why the bellicosity? Why act as if you are suffering from a bilious attack every time you post a reply?

//should have pumped you earlier by making some hasty assumption without asking for clarification//

You can pump away till hell freezes over.

//normal folks I wrote.//

So normal folks like you should roll over and pretend to play dead whenever there is an election? Yup, that makes a a lot of cow sense.

//so many guys who have fought hard fairly have been “neutered”.//

So tell me why are LTK, CST, and Sylvia Lim spared?

//well, you are sure dumb (not playing dumb)//

So not knowing what HLG is being dumb. If you don’t know what HIG means can I assume you are intellectually challenged?

//I rest my case//

Who cares.

120) Joel Low
You are a great ‘Tutsitala’ Election is secret, and anyone who wants to challenge the election will have to apply to the courts. It is serialised so that a meaningful check supervised by the court can be carried out.

The opposition use this line to discredit the Govt and found that it backfired because the people began to believe them. So they have clarified that indeed voting is SECRET.

Half-hearted attempts in wanting to represent the anti-establishment populace is not what the people need;;;this is probably the first time i heard of 100,000 signs required before you even join the fray;;;this is absurd;;;we need fiery, brave individuals in the mold of JBJ, CSJ;;;One more thing, a leopard doesn’t change its spots overnight: beware!

Curious,

Nope, no vote for Mr Tan. Not if your brand of non-sequiturs is the selling point. If he espouses your arguments and their mode of delivery, our parliament would be a mess if he gets in.

Cases in point –

1.
Curious: Contradiction is allowed in the real world.

Sure. When contradiction is intentional, it is called lying, and when it is not, it is a sign of idiocy. Pick one.

2.
Question: Why does Mr Tan need 100000 signatures?
Curious: Because Singapore is spelt with a capital S, spine means courage and pls see Mr Tan’s explanation.

3.
Curious: Phua Chu Kang is a contractor by profession, that is to say, politely, cest la vie.
Riiiiiiight…………

Loopy.

Thinktok @161

THE COURTS! You mean where my type dwell? I tell you then its better to do away with the numbers!

163) A&E on June 12th, 2009 6.21 pm

//Sure. When contradiction is intentional, it is called lying, and when it is not, it is a sign of idiocy. Pick one.//

Hello, its you who should pick one because you contradicted yourself and I was just being kind to you.

See “OIC! All that talk about the US election was merely to demonstrate breadth of intellect and scope of understanding, but had nothing to do with singapore as far as is concerned. That is why the SG/US situation could variously be like and unlike, simultaneously. I am so sorry for misunderstanding you. I see now, and do agree. That was impressive.”

Make up your mind. Do you agree with me or you don’t? Why contradict yourself?

But if you wish to see real life contradiction read my 105) Curious and check out No 3,4,5,6 ,7 and 10. Are these not contradictions?

And no thanks for taking my statements in your 2 and 3 out of context. That is the hallmark of an honest debater no less. I was hoping you could do better than that but miracles do take just a little longer.

Curious,

If you want honest debate, make sense. I start out taking a stand against Mr Tan’s need for signatures, uncertainty in his debut. I have not heard or read anything that convincingly justified that need or the pussyfooting, least from you. People who want to serve in the political arena are out there already.

The article itself. Is it meant to highlight the plight of the present workers at the hands of the Singapore corporate world or the government? Or both? It seems the article leans more towards the business world, while commentaters generally read politics in the analogy, as seen in the majority of the posts, your own, no less. If Mr Tan wants to say something political in the piece, a little less ambivalence would go far in letting prospective supporters know his stand. If it is meant to highlight the dirty business in the corporate world, well, practically the entire thread of comment is a detour, no?

To those who say “how sad” or complains. Are you doing anything about it? No, you’re not, because what you care about is gaining wealth and power for yourself too. If you are in a position of power, a boss, a manager, are you doing all you can to strive for personal gains too?

If you are striving for personal gains, why don’t you join PAP in politics too. Oh, you don’t want to give up you $100K salary? I thought you think they stand to gain a lot of wealth? So what, you stand by here and bash the people tryin to serve while everyday you’re looking for profits in your career?

“If Mr Tan wants to say something political in the piece, a little less ambivalence would go far in letting prospective supporters know his stand.”

Mr Tan, I know you are fully capable of it but please don’t or you get sent to IMH! But I also know you are intelligent enough to know this. So getting a first hand idea of how many are on your side is a good move.

166) A&E on June 12th, 2009 8.11 pm

//Curious, If you want honest debate, make sense.//

Hello, that is like the pot calling the kettle black. How can we have an honest debate when one of us is lying and contradicting himself/herself and its not me?

1 If I did not make sense why did you say “I am so sorry for misunderstanding you. I see now, and do agree. That was impressive.” …139) A&E

Was that not an intentional contradiction, that is to say, a lie?

2 Why did you make this absurd allegation “Bottomline is, Curious.., .. what justification can you have to label shame and cowardice upon the non-signers?”

Was that a Freudian slip or was it also another lie of yours?

Here are some of your pearls of wisdom not and contradictions :

3″I start out taking a stand against Mr Tan’s need for signatures, uncertainty in his debut.”.. 166) A&E

“113) A&E I would agree with you that the second way is a more pragmatic approach to things – be sure you have the votes first, don’t risk it.’

4 “109) A&E I suppose your (Mr Tan) convictions are not strong enough on their own to drive you on. ”

“That is a trait you share with me and the vast majority of Singaporeans.” ..A&E

If you and the vast majority of Singaporeans have the same alleged weakness as Mr Tan where is your moral superiority to vilify him when you have not even read his rationale for the petition for signatures? See Link :

http://theonlinecitizen.com/2008/11/100000-signatures-so-more-people-will-step-forward/

Are you Squealer masquerading as a poster or what?

5 “109) A&E no Singaporean can conscionably fault you (Mr Tan) for this,”

But I see your bleeding-heart lordship can and is generous with your unconscionable fault findings yet you don’t the spine to stand up and be counted. This is called NATO.

6 //163) A&E Curious, Nope, no vote for Mr Tan. Not if your brand of non-sequiturs is the selling point. //

“I am so sorry for misunderstanding you. I see now, and do agree. That was impressive.”… 139) A&E

7//If he espouses your arguments and their mode of delivery, our parliament would be a mess if he gets in. //

Looks like if he takes your pearls of wisdom and contradictions into Parliament they will make him a laughing stock and they might turn back and bite you in the
gluteus maximus.

8/If Mr Tan wants to say something political in the piece, a little less ambivalence would go far in letting prospective supporters know his stand. If it is meant to highlight the dirty business in the corporate world, well, practically the entire thread of comment is a detour, no?//

Enough said. Get a spine first and then come back ready for an honest debate.

166) A&E on June 12th, 2009 8.11 pm

//Curious, If you want honest debate, make sense.//

Hello, that is like the pot calling the kettle black. How can we have an honest debate when one of us is lying and contradicting himself/herself and it’s not me?

If I did not make sense why did you say “I am so sorry for misunderstanding you. I see now, and do agree. That was impressive.” …139) A&E

Was that not an intentional contradiction, that is to say, a lie?

Why did you make this absurd allegation “Bottomline is, Curious.., .. what justification can you have to label shame and cowardice upon the non-signers?”

Was that a Freudian slip or was it also another lie of yours?

Here are some of your pearls of wisdom not and CONTRADICTIONS :

//I start out taking a stand against Mr Tan’s need for signatures, uncertainty in his debut.//

//113) A&E I would agree with you that the second way is a more pragmatic approach to things – be sure you have the votes first, don’t risk it.’//

//109) A&E I suppose your (Mr Tan) convictions are not strong enough on their own to drive you on. “..A&E//

//That is a trait you share with me and the vast majority of Singaporeans.” ..A&E//

If you and the vast majority of Singaporeans have the same alleged weakness as Mr Tan where is your moral superiority to vilify him when you have not even read his rationale for the petition for signatures? See Link :

http://theonlinecitizen.com/2008/11/100000-signatures-so-more-people-will-step-forward/

You sound like Squealer masquerading as a poster.

//109) A&E no Singaporean can conscionably fault you (Mr Tan) for this,//

But I see your bleeding-heart lordship can and is generous with your unconscionable fault findings yet you don’t the spine to stand up and be counted. This is called NATO.

//163) A&E Curious, Nope, no vote for Mr Tan. Not if your brand of non-sequiturs is the selling point. //

//I am so sorry for misunderstanding you. I see now, and do agree. That was impressive.”… 139) A&E//

//If he espouses your arguments and their mode of delivery, our parliament would be a mess if he gets in. //

Looks like if he takes your pearls of wisdom and contradictions into Parliament they will make him a laughing stock and they might turn back and bite you in the
gluteus maximus.

/If Mr Tan wants to say something political in the piece, a little less ambivalence would go far in letting prospective supporters know his stand. If it is meant to highlight the dirty business in the corporate world, well, practically the entire thread of comment is a detour, no?//

Enough said. Get a spine first and then come back ready for an honest debate.

Sorry TOC Moderator. I thought itemizing of the points was not allowed when my post failed to appear. I removed the numbering and re-posted. Please cancel one. Thank you.

“Towards the end of the story, the pigs learned to stand on two legs and regarded the four-legged populace as inferiors (i.e. lesser morons). ”
=======================

Very applicable to real life.
many singapore chinese who learnt chinese as 2nd language, and even passed with flying colors at O or A level, could tell you that they speak no chinese and only can speak english being a chinese. Actually, they know. Just that for face, they always try to speak or impress people with english. Even to the extent that they will still speak good singlish to their kids maciam like they speaking perfect high class english.

Lets admit it, especially during the 80’s-now, people are very biased towards english and feel that they must speak english and if they speak chinese, they would be like 2nd class human.

this just my observation of chinese in singapore. But not all like that. Many like that. I’m sure some of you have encountered something like that.

sorly, me england unstrengthened.

This was a refreshing post that speaks across Singapore society.

Singapore is ruled by select group of people- the pigs- who has lost touch with things on the ground. They have changed from their revolutionary spirit to one driven by personal gain and profit. The seven commandments most apt would be: All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others.

Elites are these “some” animals. They are sitting in the most advantageous position but yet I have not seen any come down and help on a personal basis- but rather sit in their ivory towers, tweaking their so called “sanctified” policies.

Many of the old generation whom have built Singapore has been lost and forgotten- just like Boxer- and we should not forget them and not sent them to slaughterhouse or house them in dingy rented one-room flats.

Our intellectuals in Singapore has acquiseced so much that I hardly heard a whimper from them when there are major policy debates- they are like the donkey- which have kept quiet and allowed the status quo to perpetuate itself. The educated and enlightened ones should come up and provide an alternative voice to the ruling elites.

TKL has alluded this to story to the Singapore one and it is a rude wake-up call to one and all of us here. Come on all four legged ones- we should stand up and be counted..

Curious,

You are verging on incoherence.

4 legs good! 2 legs baaaad! :)

160) Curious on June 12th, 2009 5.44 pm

Now more names (initials). you are on the verge of lunacy of the 1st degree.

173) A&E on June 13th, 2009 12.30 am

//Curious, You are verging on incoherence.//

I am glad you notice that those were your contradictions. And at least I don’t lie.

175) are you curious enough on June 13th, 2009 10.05 am

//Now more names (initials).//

These are the initials of those who contested the 2006 GE and they are not neutered :

GMS, JG, MRBY, TWH, ABSBH, GK HSM, LWL, MTKH, YSL,LHD,SCKH, ARBAR, CTL, BSWM, ETHC, PTTK ,CCC, FCL, MAA, STKH, VYBK ,TBS ,SKT, LCW ,PLG ,IBH , LLHH, LBC ,MHA , EOBS, YKK, CSC, MIBAZ ,NG, CNTW, SCG, YCL ,ARBM, ALTH, NSE, TLS, OHS ,YYW.

//you are on the verge of lunacy of the 1st degree.//

Speak for yourself. And now you can roll over and pretend to play dead. As I said before a closed book is like a block of wood, present company not excluded. As the saying goes “small doubts, little wisdom”.

btw, are you related to A&E in anyway, shape or form, like being Squealer No2, perhaps?

“btw, are you related to A&E in anyway, shape or form, like being Squealer No2, perhaps?”

keep guessing. you have finally reached the stage (not on the verge this time) of ……………………..

178) are you curious enough on June 13th, 2009 11.15 am

// keep guessing. you have finally reached the stage (not on the verge this time) of …//

Hey, pal you want more initials I gave them to you. What more do you want? Maybe you should check for tiny hairs on your palm as this is the first sign of Alzheimer.

pal i did not ask for more names. I was saying that you were giving (involving) more names (initials). we can go on and on and there will no ending. you are pretty passionate and have a strong good determination of what you believe which is admirable.

stay here and contribute – and contribute for the good of your country.

180) are you curious enough on June 13th, 2009 11.35 am

// I was saying that you were giving (involving) more names (initials). we can go on and on and there will no ending. you are pretty passionate and have a strong good determination of what you believe which is admirable.//

Why, thank you. I also thank the heavens for little mercies everyday when I wake up.

//stay here and contribute – and contribute for the good of your country.//

Does that mean you will now vote for TKL if he should stand for election? :)

“Does that mean you will now vote for TKL if he should stand for election?”

You can guess my answer pretty easily. I have asked Mr. Tan to proceed ahead in one of my posts above. My beef is on the no contest of the presidency (hence the discourse on the second key is moot).

The discussion just morphed into a tic-for-tac one-upping exchange due to non-clarification (which did not need really matter subsequently bcos of face-saving) and more mis-understanding. I thought it was my duty not to go on like this after your hard work on coming out with such a long string of past contestants.

“Why, thank you. I also thank the heavens for little mercies everyday when I wake up.”

pal, you did a good job for yourself.

182) are you curious enough on June 13th, 2009 12.12 pm

//You can guess my answer pretty easily. I have asked Mr. Tan to proceed ahead in one of my posts above.//

Great. Always glad if fellow Singaporeans can exercise their constitutional rights to vote. A&E eat your heart out.

//I thought it was my duty not to go on like this after your hard work on coming out with such a long string of past contestants.//

You have no contest from me here. A walkover here is an exception to the rule.

//pal, you did a good job for yourself//

I am going to buy 4D today. Thank you, pal.

Curious,

Your arguments are mere smart oneliners. No one can give a sensible reply to
“You are squealer” and crap like that, without following you into a downward spiral of incoherence.

Whatever his true mettle, Mr Tan just got handed a step backward with a supporter like you. People like me are just going to have that much more incentive to not support Mr Tan, if only to put some distance between ourselves and you.

If PAP were to be the opposition today.
I wonder what would they and their supporters feel about the status quo and the policies and the way things are?

Would they support GRC system and the handling of TH and G the way it is being done?

I wonder. I can only wonder as I doubt they will respond here, Directly, and clearly,
for whatever reasons.

Can one of them share their views which are 100% Non-Partisan?

and there you have it folks.

yours,
Lee FATT Yew , really.

George Orwell was wrong about Russia and right about Temasek.

Respected American Christian Theologian, Prof David Ray Griffin, has this to say :
“For many Americans the idea that we are living in country where our own leaders planned and carried the attacks of 9-11 is simply too horrible to entertain. UNFORTUNATELY, HOWEVER, THERE IS CONVINCING EVIDENCE FOR THIS VIEW..”

DON’T MISS THIS LECTURE- MUCT WATCH!!!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3538037502590699697

“The true terrorists of our world do not meet at the darks of midnight or scream “Allah Akbar!” before some violent actions. The true terrorists of our world wear USD$5,000 suits and work in the highest positions of finance, government and business. So what do we do? How do we stop a system of greed and corruption that has so much momentum. How do we stop this abhorrent group behaviour which feels no compassion for, say, the millions slaughtered in Iraq and Afghanistan so that the corporatocacy can control energy resources and opium production for Wall Street profit.”
Zeitgeist
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

Benjamin represents Apathy.

regards
Kang Ah Loo

184) A&E on June 13th, 2009 12.58 pm

//Your arguments are mere smart oneliners//

And yours are contradictions, suppositions and half-truths like “Curious.., .. what justification can you have to label shame and cowardice upon the non-signers?”

Show me where I have said that. If you made a mistake at least, be a gentleman and say you are “sorry”. Keeping silent shows incipient dishonesty.

You claim to have no strong conviction to drive you to be a politician, a trait you said you share with not only the vast majority of Singaporeans but TKL. Why do you make such a stereotype generalization? Are you an expert on the Singapore psyche? Can you judge TKL without meeting him personally? Are you a seer or a Nostradamus?

I like this hilarious statement of yours best “Why does he need votes running for president? (139 A&E).

It shows not only how naive you are, A&E but how out of tune you are with the political realism in Singapore. He needs votes running for president because presidents here are not appointed like NMPs are but elected by the people, that’s why, silly billy.

This is another blooper of yours that I like “People who want to serve in the political arena are out there already. ”

Hello, to be a president in Singapore you DON”T need to be a politician. In fact, if you are a corporate CEO like TKL was for 30 years you are more suited to look after the second key, particularly if you are fluent with corporate accounting. A politician who is an engineer is probably less suited as a custodian of the second key.

Also lest we forget the newbies who sailed into parliament in 2006 were civilians one day and then magically ushered into the world of politics the next when there was a walkover in 7 GRCs. What preparations did they have? Bugger all!

//Whatever his true mettle, Mr Tan just got handed a step backward with a supporter like you.//

Oh, now your lordship has decided that TKL has “true mettle” but did you not proclaim that he has “a trait you share with me and the vast majority of Singaporeans” ie allegedly no conviction to drive him on?

Look, buddy, lets not preempt whether TKL takes a step forward or a step backward by associating with your nemesis or with anyone who don’t agree with your absurd opinions. The truth is that no one can see into the future. If you say you can then that is another lie.

//People like me are just going to have that much more incentive to not support Mr Tan, if only to put some distance between ourselves and you.//

Since I trust you as far as I can throw you which, unfortunately, is not far enough, the greater distance you set yourself drift from me the better. But stop making decisions for other “people” and go get a spine.

Kin Lian , Napoleon has issued 12 more new Commandments

1 We believe in protecting all workers in Singapore but sorry maids don’t count.

2 Our SMEs are good but MNCs are better.

3 We believe in free-trade. The ¾ tank rule going to JB is good for Malaysia.

4 We have a First World economy but sorry our electoral system has still a long way to go to catch up.

5 Our top officials are so poor they need a bailout every time they fly overseas.

6 Workers retire at 62 but MPs can retire when they are over 102.

7 Our Sovereign funds operate on a 6 year investment cycle so losing tens of billions of dollars in one year is not a big deal.

8 About 200,000 cars go to JB each month to enjoy the sights, not to buy cheap petrol or groceries lah.

9 Our officials are 1st Division players. Only our people are lesser mortals.

10 This is Singapore’s Golden Age, never mind about the mild recession.

11 Singapore is not an affluent country but our per capita reserve is the highest in the world, not counting Brunei.

12 The causeway jam is always Malaysia’s fault, never mind if the jam is mostly on our side.

errata :8. About 200,000 car-load of Singaporeans go to JB each month to enjoy the sights, not to buy cheap petrol or groceries lah.

184) A&E on June 13th, 2009 12.58 pm

//Your arguments are mere smart oneliners//

And yours are contradictions, suppositions and half-truths like “Curious.., .. what justification can you have to label shame and cowardice upon the non-signers?”

Show me where I have said that. If you made a mistake at least, be a gentleman and say you are “sorry”. Keeping silent shows incipient dishonesty.

You claim to have no strong conviction to drive you to be a politician, a trait you said you share with not only the vast majority of Singaporeans but TKL. Why do you make such a stereotype generalization? Are you an expert on the Singapore psyche? Can you judge TKL without meeting him personally? Are you a seer or a Nostradamus?

I like this hilarious statement of yours best “Why does he need votes running for president? (139 A&E).

It shows not only how naive you are, A&E but how out of tune you are with the political realism in Singapore. He needs votes running for president because presidents here are not appointed like NMPs are but elected by the people, that’s why.

This is another blooper of yours that I like “People who want to serve in the political arena are out there already. ”

Hello, to be a president in Singapore you DON”T need to be a politician. In fact, if you are a corporate CEO like TKL was for 30 years you are more suited to look after the second key, particularly if you are fluent with corporate accounting. A politician who is an engineer is probably less suited as a custodian of the second key.

Also lest we forget the newbies who sailed into parliament in 2006 were civilians one day and then magically ushered into the world of politics the next when there was a walkover in 7 GRCs. What preparations did they have?

//Whatever his true mettle, Mr Tan just got handed a step backward with a supporter like you.//

Oh, now your lordship has decided that TKL has “true mettle” but did you not proclaim that he has “a trait you share with me and the vast majority of Singaporeans” ie allegedly no conviction to drive him on?

Look, buddy, lets not preempt whether TKL takes a step forward or a step backward by associating with your nemesis or with anyone who don’t agree with your absurd opinions. The truth is that no one can see into the future. If you say you can then that is another lie.

//People like me are just going to have that much more incentive to not support Mr Tan, if only to put some distance between ourselves and you.//

Since I trust you as far as I can throw you which, unfortunately, is not far enough, then the greater distance you set yourself drift away from me the better. But stop making decisions for other “people” and go get a spine.

Not far now, curious.

You are nearing bottom.

192) A&E on June 14th, 2009 12.02 am

//Not far now, curious.You are nearing bottom.//

So long that you hit bottom before me is all that counts. You already hit bottom when you accused me of labeling “shame and cowardice upon the non-signers”, a lie which you have refused to make a simple retraction and to proffer an apology.

A&E, you are a person of contradictions, an enigma wrapped round tightly a riddle in a maze of conundrums.

126) KopitiamApek on June 11th, 2009 10.11 pm

Apek,

You comment to TKL that the supporters sit back behind the safety of anonymity at their keybords, and expect you do the dirty work. If you win , they all appear, if not, they forget you and they back to their keyboard.

That maybe true but people are constantly looking for leaders that will inspire them, TKL being one of them. It is had to find someone who will fight head on with the PAP, and these are brave individuals who are extraordinary people who clearly knows what are they fighting for. Even in the end if he looses, he may have to face the consequences but the inspiration will continue. Look at the man “JESUS” as an example.

The attitude of not knowing the future so we stay put is exactly the type of attitude we must reject. You questioned if we kick this government out and replaced with new government, they will not be able to do the job well. BUT that is only an assumption. you also cannot be sure they won’t be able to do their job better than the present one.

YOU SEE, we will never know if a new government can do as well or even better unless we give them a chance to prove themselves. If without giving them a chance and we judged that they cannot do it or if we are too fearful for changes …. we will always stick with the situation we have and just complainers.

This is precisely what the PAP has always been telling the people…. why choose someone whom you are not sure if they can manage the country well … choose PAP and stick with them. This fear and complacency tactics has been PAP most useful methods.

Singapore is not as unique as the PAP has painted the picture for Singaporean. There are many countries out there who are multi-racial, multi-cultural. The sensitivities issues have been played up by the PAP to put fear into us, so that we will be afraid to move into an era or instability. BUT other countries have had change of government and cabinet ministers and they are doing fine. Why can;t we? Many countries have a good democratic process and the law restraining the ruling the government so that they will not abuse their power …. WHY CAN’T WE?

I think if we give the opposition a chance to prove themselves, they may be able to do the job well and even better.

Kin Lian. 12 more new Commandments from Napoleon.

1 Money won’t buy you happiness but it will buy you a few ultra-luxury condominiums in Singapore.

2 English language is good, Singlish is neutral but dialect is baad, never mind if a dialect is the lingua franca in Hong Kong.

3 We are not a Disneyland with a capital punishment, no matter what William Safire says.

4 Twenty hottest jobs today are for newspaper delivery but strange, there are no takers from Singaporeans.

5 First-past-the-post electoral system is good but walkover is divine inspiration.

6 Singapore is a land for the haves and the have yachts

7 Election is not a matter of who is right but who is left standing.

8 NTUC supermarket is great and so is Sheng Xiong supermarket.

9 Why help the disable elderly when they can obviously help themselves.

10 Your CPF saving is your own money but someone decides when you can use it.

11 Whoever says we are not a nanny state is an imbecile.

12 Wee are a gracious society, provided you “get out of my elite uncaring face”.

does anyone knows what sort of talent, if many, sits on the board of Sheng Xiong supermarket ?

196) Joel Low

Your point of view is valid. We will never know the change until it happens. The point I am driving at is the about if there should be change or iif we should remain status quo, it is about the interesting behaviour of some people posting in TOC.

correction:

196) Joel Low

Your point of view is valid. We will never know the change until it happens. The point I am driving at is not about if there should be change or if we should remain status quo, it is about the interesting behaviour of some people posting in TOC.

“A&E, you are a person of contradictions, an enigma wrapped round tightly a riddle in a maze of conundrums.”

Hey, Curious! That was my trademark!

201) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on June 14th, 2009 8.11 pm

//Hey, Curious! That was my trademark!//

Sorry, Josh, your trademark was expunged from the records because it was given to you extemporaneously in error. A&E now holds that trademark exclusively.

No one who hugs a tree shall forthwith be called an enigma, says the Dear Leader, Napoleon. :)

I didn’t know the title was only on loan. :(

KopitiamApek: “Many people here idolises AASK, TWP, JBJ as their heroes,…”

You also posted that I “hero-worship” Tan Wah Piow just because I did not condemn or blaspheme him like PAP and you do and just because I wrote that he is now better off. BTW Tan is now a leading human rights lawyer in London, its not my opinion, its fact according to the report of his interview in Malaysia. I actually thought you were a worthy opponent for a good debate until you write things like this – about idolising or hero-worshipping people. This to me is opinion not fact however I am not denying my or anybody’s respect for the people you mention.

203) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on June 15th, 2009 5.03 pm

//I didn’t know the title was only on loan. :(//

Due to its extreme rarity no more such titles are minted. So it is only for loan. We however, can confer the rare title of OSPT (“orang suka pokok tembusu) on you for your untiring efforts to spread the art of tree hugging. :)

204) AngelVision

Thank you for clarifying that you do not idolise nor hero-worshipping these people.

“its fact according to the report of his interview in Malaysia” that is fact to some, not fact to others.

But if that is fact to you, I respect your view.

203) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on June 15th, 2009 5.03 pm

//I didn’t know the title was only on loan. :(//

More like a musical chair and aren’t you glad to be free of that worthless title?

KopitiamApek

By your hint, can I infer that you idolise and hero-worship PAP leaders?

I am not one to idolise or worship people or a tree, because these terms have a disturbing meaning of biased or blind following. I respect the oppo leaders for standing up for themselves and for others even with serious consequences and threats. And yes, that does not mean that I should sing their praises all day long if thats what you mean by idolise and hero-worship!

Hi Curious
Can you recompile your list of commandments and send them to kinlian@gmail.com? Thanks.

Comparing S’pore to Animal Farm is all gd fun. Wonder if students doing Literature are still exposed to it? Or has Lit been scrapped in Sec Schools?

But there is one big difference in post Internet era. There are alternatives to SPH, MC. So when things are changed without any admission, people can easily access the previous version.

And even SPH archive helps in this. Easy if you got the $ (1800 a yr), to track back what LKY etc said yrs ago.

So S’pore is not as closed as Animal Farm.

What is a more interesting parallel with Animal Farm is that in both places there was freedom to leave the place for those not happy with the system, but they didn’t. I could be wrong on this as I’ve not read the book for years because reading it is very painful.

BTW, TKL should do a survey on how people who post here have read the book.

“Even the pursuit of equality was now thrown aside unashamedly. Someone told me that this is now replaced by the expression: “Look at the fingers of your hand – do you find them of equal length?”

I don’t think the PAP ever advocated equality. What they advocated (and still do) is equality in opportunity.

Whether that is practicised is another matter.

“Benjamin … represented the cynics in society or the intellectuals who had the wisdom to stay clear of the purges, but take no action themselves.”

Well they and me could be like you, waiting for retirement. Like you, we got to earn a living.

“Now that I am retired from the NTUC group, I am now able to express my views on these issues. ”

So please no holier than thou attitude from you.

And after the defeat of Germany in Second World War, many Germans esp the members of Hitler’s NAZI party were like you

“Many people know that i have expressed my views on matters of public interest in the media for the past 20 years. i wrote on many occasions on the burden to our males doing National Service. The government leaders did not like my views at that time.”

You cannot escape yr past. You can atone for it, if you feel guilty, though seriously there is nothing much to feel guilty abt except the reverse mortgage fiasco reported in New Paper last yr. And here you were attacking the FIs.

http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=439421

Please do not be like LKY, calling names and imputing the integrity of those who do not 100% agree with you.

Or who remain silent.

208) Tan Kin Lian on June 19th, 2009 8.29 am

//Hi Curious, Can you recompile your list of commandments and send them to kinlian@gmail.com? Thanks.//

I have reconstituted and recompiled them here for your easy reference in two parts :

Part I

1 Men in blue are good and men in white are better.

2 Multi-million dollar salary is to prevent corruption.

3 All are equal but some are more equal when it comes to pensions.

4 Due process is guaranteed, except when ISA is invoked.

5 Freedom of Assembly is guaranteed too but after 5 persons, better get permit.

6 GRC managed to get 14 minorities and 61non-minorities into Parliament.

7 Westminster model is good but needed local tweaking for NMP & NCMP.

8 Your CPF savings are for your retirement when you are over 80.

9 ERP is to prevent traffic jams and does not mean “every road pay”

10 Our investments are for long term. Barclay’s and BOA are just exceptions.

11 You can have Swiss standard of living, just pay and pay lor.

12 Who says pigs don’t fly? There was clear evidence that swine flew in Mexico.

13 Singaporeans are good but cheap FTs are even better for our economy.

14 Remember retirement homes are cheaper in JB and Batam.

15 We always extol the spirit of Meritocracy except when it comes to GRCs.

16 Voting is our constitutional right & compulsory but all bets are off in walkovers.

17 Electoral boundaries are made of rubber bands to better serve you the
people.

18 Gambling is bad but not 4D, toto, horse-racing and in our very own 2 casinos.

19 Our reserves are for rainy day, not for investing long term in zombie banks.

20 Give the govt 7% GST and we shall give you some back. GST means “give
some trust” lah.

21 Our health-care is best in the region, that’s why it is so darn expensive.

22 Don’t stop at two. Whoever told you that ought to be excoriated .

23 Winning our 2008 Olympic silver medal was great but no thanks to the coach.

24 COE keeps our car population in check. It does not mean “Cee pun Or Ee”.

25 We believe in protecting all workers in Singapore but sorry maids don’t count.

26 Our SMEs are good but MNCs are better.

27 We believe in free trade. The ¾ tank rule going to JB is good for Malaysia.

28 We have a First World economy but sorry our electoral system has to play catch-up.

29 Our top officials are so poor they need a bailout every time they fly overseas.

30 Workers retire at 62 but MPs can retire anytime past 85.

31 Our Sovereign Wealth Funds operate on a 6 year investment cycle so losing tens of billions of dollars in one year is not a big deal.

208) Tan Kin Lian on June 19th, 2009 8.29 am

Part II

32 About 200,000 carloads of Singaporeans go to JB each month to enjoy the sights, not to buy cheap petrol or groceries to make ends meet, lah.

33 Our officials are 1st Division players. Only our people are lesser mortals.

34 This is Singapore’s Golden Age, never mind about the recession.

35 Singapore is not an affluent country but our per capita reserve is the highest in the world, not counting Brunei.

36 The causeway jam is always Malaysia’s fault, never mind if the jam is mostly on our side.

37 Money won’t buy you happiness but it will buy you a few ultra-luxury condominiums.

38 English language is good, Mandarin is better, Singlish is neutral but dialect is bad, never mind if a dialect is the lingua franca in HK.

39 We are not a Disneyland with a capital punishment, no matter what William Safire said.

40 Twenty hottest jobs today are for newspaper delivery but strange, there are no takers.

41 First-past-the-post electoral system is good but walkover is divine inspiration.

42 Singapore is a land for the haves and the have yachts

43 Election is not a matter of who is right but who is left standing.

44 NTUC supermarket is great and so is Sheng Xiong supermarket.

45 Why help the disable elderly when they can obviously help themselves.

46 Whoever says we are not a nanny state is an imbecile.

47 Your CPF saving is your own money but someone decides when you can use it.

48 Chewing gum is good for your teeth but even better for your lawyer’s fees.

49 When in Rome do as they Romans do, when in Singapore do as the miw say.

50 The old guards had a tiger in their tanks, the new guards, money in the bank.

51 “Release me” was the favourite song of Chia Thye Poh for 23 years.

52 Singapore is a fine city only for those with a million dollar salary .

53 In the goode old days the three Rs used to be Reading, ‘Riting and ‘Rithmetic. Now it’s romance, reproduction and rheumatism.

54 Defamation is the fastest growing and most lucrative computer game in town.

55 Wee are a gracious society, provide you “get out of my elite uncaring face”

I want to encourage people to be positive and to see the bright side of life.

Some people, who enjoy attacking other people personally while remaining anonymous, called my attitude to be “holier than thou”.

I want them to know that they should not pass judgement on other people – just because other people do not behave in the same way that they do.

To #214 Mr Tan Kin Lian,

Your repeated exhortations for others “to be positive” is rather interesting. You seem to be rather easily irritated and impatient with people who disagree with you. It appears (to me at least) that rather than engaging these people, you are conveniently dismissing them as being negative. In one stroke, you are making it appear as though their misgivings and apprehensions towards you are signs of deficiencies in their own upbringing or character.

This, I think is unacceptable and grossly unfair.

If you strive to be a public figure, you should do better. Do you want to hear only the good things? Do you want only Yes-men? Or do you want to pursue the truth?

May I remind you of your stated life principles:

1. honesty
2. fairness
3. public good
4. courage
5. positive approach

Please reflect on them more deeply and live up to them.

I thank you.

@211) Benjamin the Goat

//So please no holier than thou attitude from you. //

Benjamin, why the bellicosity? See his explanation in 53) Tan Kin Lian here :

“During the first 25 years of independence, the PAP was a party of the people. Many people, including me, were proud to be Singaporeans and to be involved in the process of building up a nation. The PAP changed around 1985. That was the time that the focus was on elitism, graduate mothers, etc. There was a departure from equality and the good of the common people. Things got worse over the years. Later, there was the focus on “foreign talents”. While I was employed in NTUC Income, it was not possible for me to take a public position on this matter. But many of our leaders know my private views on this matter.”

IMHO, That was being prudent as people who live in glass houses should never throw stones. UK has the “Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998 which protects the maverick from victimization and dismissal” but not here.

Catherine Lim was excoriated publicly when she wrote to the ST Forum a letter entitled “The PAP and the People-A Great Affective Divide.

She opined that “that while Singaporeans respected the PAP’s efficiency and were grateful towards it for bringing Singapore economic success, they lacked any real affection or warmth for the political party.”

This caused the “empire to strike back”. She was asked to “take responsibility for her views and to enter politics if she wished to continuing airing them”.

Even President Eisenhower waited till he left office before he exposed the dangers of the US Military-Industrial-Complex as he could not do so whilst he was still the Commander-in-Chief.

Therefore, there is a time and place for everything and now that TKL is aspiring to enter the political arena he feels it is appropriate for him to make a mission statement. That, to me, is not a person with a “holier than thou attitude.”

//And after the defeat of Germany in Second World War, many Germans esp the members of Hitler’s NAZI party were like you .//

Don’t be a goat, Benjamin, comparing contemporary Singapore to wartime Nazi Germany is like comparing chalk and cheese.

//You cannot escape yr past.//

The company that TKL worked for for 32 years is a co-operative insurance society which he built into a “leader in Life and General Insurance with total assets of S$21.3 billion” today. What is wrong with that? Maybe the nuance has escaped you but anyone calling that a “past” got to have rocks in his head.

As for the reverse mortgage business, like any business there are inherent risks especially dung a downturn. In the current global financial meltdown, about US$30 Trillions have evaporated around the world.

Who do you blame Benjamin? If anyone has a “holier than thou” attitude I think its you, pal.

Mr Tan

Pls live by what you say

“I want them to know that they should not pass judgement on other people – just because other people do not behave in the same way that they do.”

Remember you started it passing judgements on the people you called cynics. We are answering back pointing out contradictions in what you say. You do the same to gov. policy. What is wrong with that?

Besides pointing out contradictions in what you say is not an attack on you. It is just that — pointing out contradictions so that people can make their mind abt whether they want to support yr 100,000 names petitions.

And people should remember that you asked Income policy holders to attend two AGMs to support you. Then you went AWOL twice.

OK you did great things for the minibond, HN5 investors, but that should not obscure yr NTUC AWOLs.

I attended the first AGM and was disappointed by yr being cowered into silence by the great men and by the slap that Income gave you that you took lying down. I knew better than to attend the next AGM. I knew you would chicken out.

Enjoy yr retirement, you deserve it. It is not as though you exploited people when you were in Income and need to atone for yr sins. Income generally gave people a fair deal, better than most insurers. And Income’s actions kept them honest. For that you deserve a lot of the credit.

As to new mgt, I am not happy with the cuts but they have pointed out that their cost ratios have gone down. You promised in yr blog that you would respond to their answers. I visit yr blog daily to find out if you have replied. But I guess you prefer to talk abt the macro issues.

Finally, if you want to play rough, expect others to play rough.

I hope you realise that yr fans are not coming out to defend you. You shld ask yrself why?

errata :

“As for the reverse mortgage business, like any business there are inherent risks especially DURING a downturn. In the current global financial meltdown, about US$30 Trillions have evaporated around the world.”

Opps last para of 217 is wrong

I hope you realise that yr fans other than Curious are not coming out to defend you. You shld ask yrself why?

And I hope you shld take the attitude that anon fans are just as worthless as anon critics like be, Benjamin and A Tan etc.

As a frequent reader of yr TOC pieces, I note that A Tan has usually supported yr views. He gave some gd examples of when S’pore gov listened.

He criticised you once and you consigned him to anononymous critics not worth replying to. Speaks volumes abt you.

hi Curious,

please give Mr Tan Kin Lian a chance to speak for himself. is there “an empire that will strike back” here?

i find it rather disturbing for Mr Tan Kin Lian to view an different voice as;
////Some people, who enjoy attacking other people personally while remaining anonymous, called my attitude to be “holier than thou”.

I want them to know that they should not pass judgement on other people – just because other people do not behave in the same way that they do.////
who is judging who in this respect?

Benjamin’s
////And after the defeat of Germany in Second World War, many Germans esp the members of Hitler’s NAZI party were like you.////
may not be the most appropreiate, but i do find some points in that post rather valid.

the worse that can happen is for every posters to take side like you & i are doing, dig in for a long drawn battle of rhetorics.

a slightly more positive example in TOC is Arix. he/she despite being outnumbered & out”talked” does not shy away too far from confrontation, is able to remain civil, rarely accusing others of personal attacks.

lastly, why the need to taunt others with
////Who do you blame Benjamin? If anyone has a “holier than thou” attitude I think its you, pal.////

yes, i would like to see Mr Tan Kin Lian respond to some posters here instead of avoiding them (me included). for someone who does not shy away from speaking at Hong Lim Park, to do so online is really odd.

#216

Don’t waste yr breath. He will consign you to his hell along with me and anyone who dares say his is not a great man. Even people who give examples that support his view. Say one bad word and he consigns you yo his hell. Even LKY fairer than that.

We have exposed his weakness — vanity.

If he gets upset us by asking him questions on what he says, he isn’t worth the effort supporting.

BTW Curious the Income reverse mortgage that Income sold was badly flawed. It is banned in Australia and UK. Yet the people’s champion allowed it to be sold. The only reason why there is one blow up is because very few people bought it. I suspect that only the couple bought it.

As to the Nazi analogy, he raised it first on his blog.

As to his explanation on not speaking up before: on that basis he shld not be attacking ‘cynics’ for not speaking out. He should have the grace to keep quiet.

Propogate his social democratic views on improving S’pore but stop lecturing and attacking S’poreans for a lack of courage in speaking out. And stop blaming S’poreans for cowardice in refusing to sign his petition. Maybe they noticed he went AWOL over Income’s AGMs?

Only Dr Chee and the late JBJ have the authority to say these things.

Mice is nice

Ever tot he thinks he LKY II. Can’t answer back in coherent logical manner, or can’t get fans to answer back. So he calls names and attacks integrity of critics, and misrep their views.

But in so doing shows quality of man.

Can criticise others but once anyone queries his logic or statements, it is made into personal attack.

If you want bravery — LKY at least had bigger balls. He stood up from 1951 — 1965 against the British, UMNO and the communists.

But Mr Tan thinks he can behave LKY II without being as brave as LKY.

People have differences. The important thing here in Singapore is to encourage as many citizens as possible, who are qualified and capable to join the political arena and not give the PAP the monopoly. The opposition has been grossly under-represented in parliament for the past twenty over years.

Being an ex-PAP member and working for the government (NTUC) for many years should not disqualify TKL as a non-PAP politician. Already, without the 100,000 signatures he is discouraged.

Remember ex-President OTC who was brave enough to question the government about the official reserves which he was to safeguard. The PAP denied him the state funeral after his death. This is the sad state of affairs in our country.

erm..lky and all those expensive ministers won’t dare come in here and get humiliated. well, not exactly right. if they do come here, you can be assured their lawyers will also be present. lol.

so kudos to tkl. it shows humility and courage to face anonymous unkind remarks without hitting back(legal assault) – unlike the pap.

a rare breed indeed.

whether TKL would be able to do a better job than the present bunch of useless ministers is not an issue, at least at this moment. What is more important now is to get TKL to represent the people’s voice in questioning the present party for checks and accountability in whatever way he can or knows about the entire system during his time when he was with them. Infact, TKL is the best person now to do the job, well unless there are more people from the present party who are willing to break away and do likewise like TKL is doing now, then in this way, the ruling party would not be able to deny anything that are hidden from the people all these years anymore, unless . . . . . . . . they starts to play by their own rules again with the way they how they eliminate their past political opponents like JBJ and CSJ .

hi Cynic,

dun need to resort to personal taunts. just wait for Mr Tan Kin Lian to reply. dun scare him away. fans of his should not get in his way, by pretending to be able to read his mind & answer on his behalf.

LKY has no peers, he does have track record to his name few can match. alas, the present him… sad lah…

ironically, Animal Farm is started by Mr Tan himself…

btw, i am currently a critic (being critical). ;)

………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

hi Bravo,

eh, what is there to kudos about? not all posters have “unkind remarks”. your statement is an over-generalisation, does your idol no good- the “with us or against us” mentality.

true leaders reach out to the common folks, online is a good platform to reach out. surely someone like him knows. doesn’t he?

o.O

hi Cynic,

dun need to resort to personal taunts. just wait for Mr Tan Kin Lian to reply. dun scare him away. fans of his should not get in his way, by pretending to be able to read his mind & answer on his behalf.

LKY has no peers, he does have track record to his name few can match. alas, the present him… sad lah…

ironically, Animal Farm is started by Mr Tan himself…

………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

hi Bravo,

eh, what is there to kudos about? not all posters have “unkind remarks”. your statement is an over-generalisation, does your idol no good- the “with us or against us” mentality.

true leaders reach out to the common folks, online is a good platform to reach out. surely someone like him knows. doesn’t he?

o.O

but it seems TKL is not too keen to feel the ground leh, liddat how to know the ground situation? let alone represent issues on the ground?

accountability starts here, posters who asked valid questioned should be answered head-on, not dodged or demonised.

@220) mice is nice

//hi Curious, please give Mr Tan Kin Lian a chance to speak for himself. //

This is a free market of ideas and everyone should have a chance to voice an opinion, even you. Lets not put up barriers. TKL will have a lot of opportunity to have his say as he has a spine.

//is there “an empire that will strike back” here? //

Where have you been living in the last 25 years ?

//i find it rather disturbing for Mr Tan Kin Lian to view an different voice as;//

If you are the subject of an unjust verbal assault.are you going to roll over and pretend to play dead? If you do, you likely to find foot-prints on your chest.

//may not be the most appropreiate, but i do find some points in that post rather valid.//

Who is judging who in this respect now? Why the double standard?

//the worse that can happen is for every posters to take side like you & i are doing, dig in for a long drawn battle of rhetorics.//

I agree. That is why I always plead for the opposition parties to put their differences aside and form an “opposition caucus” to take on the “empire” as 223) Edward puts it so starkly “The opposition has been grossly under-represented in parliament for the past twenty over years.”

//a slightly more positive example in TOC is Arix. he/she despite being outnumbered & out”talked” does not shy away too far from confrontation, is able to remain civil, rarely accusing others of personal attacks.//

So your advice is to roll over and pretend to play dead when you are attacked? If so, please remind me to send you half a dozen of new T-shirts.

//lastly, why the need to taunt others with//

That was not a taunt. It was a polite wake up call, nothing personal. I like goats but not sheeple.

//yes, i would like to see Mr Tan Kin Lian respond to some posters here instead of avoiding them (me included). for someone who does not shy away from speaking at Hong Lim Park, to do so online is really odd.//

Hello, in HKP you are dealing with real people in distress. That is hard enough but its the “devils” hiding behind nicks online that one needs to be on one’s guard.

225) tiredsingaporean

//What is more important now is to get TKL to represent the people’s voice in questioning the present party for checks and accountability in whatever way he can or knows about the entire system during his time when he was with them. Infact, TKL is the best person now to do the job//

No one can put it better that what you just did. Well done.

223) Edward on June 19th, 2009 8.21 pm

//People have differences. The important thing here in Singapore is to encourage as many citizens as possible, who are qualified and capable to join the political arena and not give the PAP the monopoly. The opposition has been grossly under-represented in parliament for the past twenty over years.Being an ex-PAP member and working for the government (NTUC) for many years should not disqualify TKL as a non-PAP politician. //

Well said, Edward. That’s a great point.

hi Curious,

i am not putting up barriers, just as if you pose a question to me. you would expect me to reply, not my friend or fan to do it on my behalf. no?

if the fear of the empire striking back, where the courage to write controversal articles?

on unjust verbal assualt. fair enough there are some, but not all are that- unjust verbal assualt. yet some posters conveniently lump all together.

does voicing an opinion equal judging?

opposition parties banding together may or may not work for the success of S’pore. that will depend on the groups dynamics, loose groupings fragment in face of trouble…. so lets not assume there is safety in numbers.

roll over to play dead? i am responding to your post, but after that many hours where is Mr Tan Kin Lian’s response?

you can politely tell Mr Tan that he has several “polite wake-up call” & they’re nothing personal. so dun go about claiming
////Some people, who enjoy attacking other people personally while remaining anonymous, called my attitude to be “holier than thou”.////
all too often. have to beware of those who cry wolf too often…

even if there are devils hiding behind nicks, you should not treat all who disagree with you as devils. eh, what is HKP?

@221) Benjamin the Goat

//#216, Don’t waste yr breath. He will consign you to his hell along with me and anyone who dares say his is not a great man.//

Benjamin, why the bellicosity? Aren’t you not committing the same “faux pas” that you try to pin on another? Calm down, pal.

//We have exposed his weakness — vanity.//

I don’t really care so long as he is the best person to look after the second key. To a large extent everyone who is discerning has to have some degree of vanity otherwise sloppiness starts to creep into the system. Its miles better to have the alleged vanity than dishonesty when one is looking after the second key.

//BTW Curious the Income reverse mortgage that Income sold was badly flawed. It is banned in Australia and UK. //

That is all over but the shouting and one swallow does not make a summer. No one is always perfect. In the business world, things don’t always go the way one wants it to. Even in a war a plan is useless, says one great general but planning is a must.

//As to his explanation on not speaking up before: on that basis he shld not be attacking ‘cynics’ for not speaking out. He should have the grace to keep quiet.//

As I said before there is a time and place for everything. Even Eisenhower had to keep his mouth shut until he left office to pillory the Military Industrial Complex for leading America into a doctrine of endless wars for profits.

//Propogate his social democratic views on improving S’pore but stop lecturing and attacking S’poreans for a lack of courage in speaking out.//

Sometimes it takes a little nudge to get the people to see beyond their comfort zones. After all aren’t we programmed to remain “bo chap” when it comes to realpolitik?

// And stop blaming S’poreans for cowardice in refusing to sign his petition//

That’s an unfair blow below the belt, Benjamin. Anyone who aspires to go into the political arena would be committing political seppuku if he/she does that.

I do not respond to malicious personal attacks from people who have an agenda against me.

It is all right for someone to hold a different view, but it is different when the attack is malicious, while hiding under anonymity. It is possible for one person to post under different names in making these attacks, to give the impression that there are several people having the same view.

I hope that the moderator of TOC will pay attention to this type of malice, as it will undermine the value of this platform.

hi Mr Tan Kin Lian,

i understand your concern. when i was a newbie here, i was quite surprised the difference TOC is from other forums, in terms of format. for 1, i was not able to track my post history to keep a tab on articles which i posted before, wihout the need to enable an email notification.

i do hope you do not regard all posts that have different views as personal attacks. & lastly hope to have you respond to posts with valid points brought up.

ain’t forums supposed to encourage discussion?

@231) mice is nice

”hi Curious, i am not putting up barriers, just as if you pose a question to me. you would expect me to reply, not my friend or fan to do it on my behalf. no?//

As I said this is a free market of ideas. Anyone is free to make a rebuttal. TKL has his own reasons. Maybe he is busy sizing you up.

//if the fear of the empire striking back, where the courage to write controversal articles?//

You regard writing controversial articles as a sign of courage? Hello, politics in Singapore is a zero sum game and can be very rough. Anyone who is willing to give everything up to go into politics in Singapore to take on the “empire” has not only my admiration but my support.

//does voicing an opinion equal judging? //

Not necessarily I grant you that but double standards are egregious.

//opposition parties banding together may or may not work for the success of S’pore. that will depend on the groups dynamics, loose groupings fragment in face of trouble…. so lets not assume there is safety in numbers.//

Take a good look around and see the sorry lot that we call the “opposition parties” in Singapore. They need to improve heck of a lot to take on the awesome, well-oiled political machinery that they will come against in the next GE. Playing the walkover game is a lost cause. You need money, organizational wizardry and mobilization of the people’s opinions just to get to the starting line.

//roll over to play dead?//

I think you expect folks who are attacked to do that but they won’t.

//i am responding to your post, but after that many hours where is Mr Tan Kin Lian’s response?//

You, like me, probably hate watching TV and rather waste our time online blowing into the wind.

//you can politely tell Mr Tan that he has several “polite wake-up call” & they’re nothing personal.//

Is that a Freudian slip or do I detect a situation of “Hell hath no fire like a little mouse scorned”?

//even if there are devils hiding behind nicks, you should not treat all who disagree with you as devils//

That’s why I often like to be a devil’s advocate to put the cat among the pigeons.

//what is HKP?//

It’s called a typo. It should be HLP, kapish?

@234) mice is nice

//ain’t forums supposed to encourage discussion?//

I am pleased to no end that you finally got it. Thank you.

Hi all,

this article will be closed from further commenting.

It has come to my attention that the discussion here has strayed from the contents of this article into personal attacks against Tan Kin Lian’s character and involvement in politics, which is NOT the focus of this discussion.

Please do not abuse the platform on TOC to discuss non-relevant matters.