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It has come to my attention that the discussion here has strayed from the contents of this article into personal attacks against Tan Kin Lian’s character and involvement in politics, which is NOT the focus of this discussion.

Please do not abuse the platform on TOC to discuss non-relevant matters.

//ain’t forums supposed to encourage discussion?//

I am pleased to no end that you finally got it. Thank you.

”hi Curious, i am not putting up barriers, just as if you pose a question to me. you would expect me to reply, not my friend or fan to do it on my behalf. no?//

As I said this is a free market of ideas. Anyone is free to make a rebuttal. TKL has his own reasons. Maybe he is busy sizing you up.

//if the fear of the empire striking back, where the courage to write controversal articles?//

You regard writing controversial articles as a sign of courage? Hello, politics in Singapore is a zero sum game and can be very rough. Anyone who is willing to give everything up to go into politics in Singapore to take on the “empire” has not only my admiration but my support.

//does voicing an opinion equal judging? //

Not necessarily I grant you that but double standards are egregious.

//opposition parties banding together may or may not work for the success of S’pore. that will depend on the groups dynamics, loose groupings fragment in face of trouble…. so lets not assume there is safety in numbers.//

Take a good look around and see the sorry lot that we call the “opposition parties” in Singapore. They need to improve heck of a lot to take on the awesome, well-oiled political machinery that they will come against in the next GE. Playing the walkover game is a lost cause. You need money, organizational wizardry and mobilization of the people’s opinions just to get to the starting line.

//roll over to play dead?//

I think you expect folks who are attacked to do that but they won’t.

//i am responding to your post, but after that many hours where is Mr Tan Kin Lian’s response?//

You, like me, probably hate watching TV and rather waste our time online blowing into the wind.

//you can politely tell Mr Tan that he has several “polite wake-up call” & they’re nothing personal.//

Is that a Freudian slip or do I detect a situation of “Hell hath no fire like a little mouse scorned”?

//even if there are devils hiding behind nicks, you should not treat all who disagree with you as devils//

That’s why I often like to be a devil’s advocate to put the cat among the pigeons.

//what is HKP?//

It’s called a typo. It should be HLP, kapish?

i understand your concern. when i was a newbie here, i was quite surprised the difference TOC is from other forums, in terms of format. for 1, i was not able to track my post history to keep a tab on articles which i posted before, wihout the need to enable an email notification.

i do hope you do not regard all posts that have different views as personal attacks. & lastly hope to have you respond to posts with valid points brought up.

ain’t forums supposed to encourage discussion?

It is all right for someone to hold a different view, but it is different when the attack is malicious, while hiding under anonymity. It is possible for one person to post under different names in making these attacks, to give the impression that there are several people having the same view.

I hope that the moderator of TOC will pay attention to this type of malice, as it will undermine the value of this platform.

//#216, Don’t waste yr breath. He will consign you to his hell along with me and anyone who dares say his is not a great man.//

Benjamin, why the bellicosity? Aren’t you not committing the same “faux pas” that you try to pin on another? Calm down, pal.

//We have exposed his weakness — vanity.//

I don’t really care so long as he is the best person to look after the second key. To a large extent everyone who is discerning has to have some degree of vanity otherwise sloppiness starts to creep into the system. Its miles better to have the alleged vanity than dishonesty when one is looking after the second key.

//BTW Curious the Income reverse mortgage that Income sold was badly flawed. It is banned in Australia and UK. //

That is all over but the shouting and one swallow does not make a summer. No one is always perfect. In the business world, things don’t always go the way one wants it to. Even in a war a plan is useless, says one great general but planning is a must.

//As to his explanation on not speaking up before: on that basis he shld not be attacking ‘cynics’ for not speaking out. He should have the grace to keep quiet.//

As I said before there is a time and place for everything. Even Eisenhower had to keep his mouth shut until he left office to pillory the Military Industrial Complex for leading America into a doctrine of endless wars for profits.

//Propogate his social democratic views on improving S’pore but stop lecturing and attacking S’poreans for a lack of courage in speaking out.//

Sometimes it takes a little nudge to get the people to see beyond their comfort zones. After all aren’t we programmed to remain “bo chap” when it comes to realpolitik?

// And stop blaming S’poreans for cowardice in refusing to sign his petition//

That’s an unfair blow below the belt, Benjamin. Anyone who aspires to go into the political arena would be committing political seppuku if he/she does that.

i am not putting up barriers, just as if you pose a question to me. you would expect me to reply, not my friend or fan to do it on my behalf. no?

if the fear of the empire striking back, where the courage to write controversal articles?

on unjust verbal assualt. fair enough there are some, but not all are that- unjust verbal assualt. yet some posters conveniently lump all together.

does voicing an opinion equal judging?

opposition parties banding together may or may not work for the success of S’pore. that will depend on the groups dynamics, loose groupings fragment in face of trouble…. so lets not assume there is safety in numbers.

roll over to play dead? i am responding to your post, but after that many hours where is Mr Tan Kin Lian’s response?

you can politely tell Mr Tan that he has several “polite wake-up call” & they’re nothing personal. so dun go about claiming
////Some people, who enjoy attacking other people personally while remaining anonymous, called my attitude to be “holier than thou”.////
all too often. have to beware of those who cry wolf too often…

even if there are devils hiding behind nicks, you should not treat all who disagree with you as devils. eh, what is HKP?

//People have differences. The important thing here in Singapore is to encourage as many citizens as possible, who are qualified and capable to join the political arena and not give the PAP the monopoly. The opposition has been grossly under-represented in parliament for the past twenty over years.Being an ex-PAP member and working for the government (NTUC) for many years should not disqualify TKL as a non-PAP politician. //

Well said, Edward. That’s a great point.

//What is more important now is to get TKL to represent the people’s voice in questioning the present party for checks and accountability in whatever way he can or knows about the entire system during his time when he was with them. Infact, TKL is the best person now to do the job//

No one can put it better that what you just did. Well done.

//hi Curious, please give Mr Tan Kin Lian a chance to speak for himself. //

This is a free market of ideas and everyone should have a chance to voice an opinion, even you. Lets not put up barriers. TKL will have a lot of opportunity to have his say as he has a spine.

//is there “an empire that will strike back” here? //

Where have you been living in the last 25 years ?

//i find it rather disturbing for Mr Tan Kin Lian to view an different voice as;//

If you are the subject of an unjust verbal assault.are you going to roll over and pretend to play dead? If you do, you likely to find foot-prints on your chest.

//may not be the most appropreiate, but i do find some points in that post rather valid.//

Who is judging who in this respect now? Why the double standard?

//the worse that can happen is for every posters to take side like you & i are doing, dig in for a long drawn battle of rhetorics.//

I agree. That is why I always plead for the opposition parties to put their differences aside and form an “opposition caucus” to take on the “empire” as 223) Edward puts it so starkly “The opposition has been grossly under-represented in parliament for the past twenty over years.”

//a slightly more positive example in TOC is Arix. he/she despite being outnumbered & out”talked” does not shy away too far from confrontation, is able to remain civil, rarely accusing others of personal attacks.//

So your advice is to roll over and pretend to play dead when you are attacked? If so, please remind me to send you half a dozen of new T-shirts.

//lastly, why the need to taunt others with//

That was not a taunt. It was a polite wake up call, nothing personal. I like goats but not sheeple.

//yes, i would like to see Mr Tan Kin Lian respond to some posters here instead of avoiding them (me included). for someone who does not shy away from speaking at Hong Lim Park, to do so online is really odd.//

Hello, in HKP you are dealing with real people in distress. That is hard enough but its the “devils” hiding behind nicks online that one needs to be on one’s guard.

accountability starts here, posters who asked valid questioned should be answered head-on, not dodged or demonised.

dun need to resort to personal taunts. just wait for Mr Tan Kin Lian to reply. dun scare him away. fans of his should not get in his way, by pretending to be able to read his mind & answer on his behalf.

LKY has no peers, he does have track record to his name few can match. alas, the present him… sad lah…

ironically, Animal Farm is started by Mr Tan himself…

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hi Bravo,

eh, what is there to kudos about? not all posters have “unkind remarks”. your statement is an over-generalisation, does your idol no good- the “with us or against us” mentality.

true leaders reach out to the common folks, online is a good platform to reach out. surely someone like him knows. doesn’t he?

o.O

dun need to resort to personal taunts. just wait for Mr Tan Kin Lian to reply. dun scare him away. fans of his should not get in his way, by pretending to be able to read his mind & answer on his behalf.

LKY has no peers, he does have track record to his name few can match. alas, the present him… sad lah…

ironically, Animal Farm is started by Mr Tan himself…

btw, i am currently a critic (being critical). ;)

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hi Bravo,

eh, what is there to kudos about? not all posters have “unkind remarks”. your statement is an over-generalisation, does your idol no good- the “with us or against us” mentality.

true leaders reach out to the common folks, online is a good platform to reach out. surely someone like him knows. doesn’t he?

o.O

so kudos to tkl. it shows humility and courage to face anonymous unkind remarks without hitting back(legal assault) – unlike the pap.

a rare breed indeed.

Being an ex-PAP member and working for the government (NTUC) for many years should not disqualify TKL as a non-PAP politician. Already, without the 100,000 signatures he is discouraged.

Remember ex-President OTC who was brave enough to question the government about the official reserves which he was to safeguard. The PAP denied him the state funeral after his death. This is the sad state of affairs in our country.

Ever tot he thinks he LKY II. Can’t answer back in coherent logical manner, or can’t get fans to answer back. So he calls names and attacks integrity of critics, and misrep their views.

But in so doing shows quality of man.

Can criticise others but once anyone queries his logic or statements, it is made into personal attack.

If you want bravery — LKY at least had bigger balls. He stood up from 1951 — 1965 against the British, UMNO and the communists.

But Mr Tan thinks he can behave LKY II without being as brave as LKY.

Don’t waste yr breath. He will consign you to his hell along with me and anyone who dares say his is not a great man. Even people who give examples that support his view. Say one bad word and he consigns you yo his hell. Even LKY fairer than that.

We have exposed his weakness — vanity.

If he gets upset us by asking him questions on what he says, he isn’t worth the effort supporting.

BTW Curious the Income reverse mortgage that Income sold was badly flawed. It is banned in Australia and UK. Yet the people’s champion allowed it to be sold. The only reason why there is one blow up is because very few people bought it. I suspect that only the couple bought it.

As to the Nazi analogy, he raised it first on his blog.

As to his explanation on not speaking up before: on that basis he shld not be attacking ‘cynics’ for not speaking out. He should have the grace to keep quiet.

Propogate his social democratic views on improving S’pore but stop lecturing and attacking S’poreans for a lack of courage in speaking out. And stop blaming S’poreans for cowardice in refusing to sign his petition. Maybe they noticed he went AWOL over Income’s AGMs?

Only Dr Chee and the late JBJ have the authority to say these things.

please give Mr Tan Kin Lian a chance to speak for himself. is there “an empire that will strike back” here?

i find it rather disturbing for Mr Tan Kin Lian to view an different voice as;
////Some people, who enjoy attacking other people personally while remaining anonymous, called my attitude to be “holier than thou”.

I want them to know that they should not pass judgement on other people – just because other people do not behave in the same way that they do.////
who is judging who in this respect?

Benjamin’s
////And after the defeat of Germany in Second World War, many Germans esp the members of Hitler’s NAZI party were like you.////
may not be the most appropreiate, but i do find some points in that post rather valid.

the worse that can happen is for every posters to take side like you & i are doing, dig in for a long drawn battle of rhetorics.

a slightly more positive example in TOC is Arix. he/she despite being outnumbered & out”talked” does not shy away too far from confrontation, is able to remain civil, rarely accusing others of personal attacks.

lastly, why the need to taunt others with
////Who do you blame Benjamin? If anyone has a “holier than thou” attitude I think its you, pal.////

yes, i would like to see Mr Tan Kin Lian respond to some posters here instead of avoiding them (me included). for someone who does not shy away from speaking at Hong Lim Park, to do so online is really odd.

I hope you realise that yr fans other than Curious are not coming out to defend you. You shld ask yrself why?

And I hope you shld take the attitude that anon fans are just as worthless as anon critics like be, Benjamin and A Tan etc.

As a frequent reader of yr TOC pieces, I note that A Tan has usually supported yr views. He gave some gd examples of when S’pore gov listened.

He criticised you once and you consigned him to anononymous critics not worth replying to. Speaks volumes abt you.