The whole problem can be in a better shape when there is not too MANY foreigners around to fight for a job.

I agree with Gilbert.
Thanks Gilbert , for voicing up for the PMET jobless again.

I am a technical cert holder and regard myself as a professional.
It is less than a poly diploma but similar.

I went to E2i. the pay offered was 900. I asked for 1200.
Do not be mistaken that I am shunning this low wage work.
I will take it up if they hire me.
The requirement is a NITEC cert.

I just like to tell all singaporeans that salary for PMET can be as low as $900 where I regard NITEC holders as a PMET.

This is not a time to be choosey and many singaporeans are willing to take up these jobs. Contrary to the news reports that painted singaporeans as shunning low wage work. It would be fairer if they painted how many singaporeans are like that AND how many are taking up low wage work that pay as low as $500 to $900
for singaporeans who have to suffer the high cost of living, something that is BEYOND their control and they do not choose to be born here.

Likewise, when being labelled as moldycuddled (typo intended), is the speaker a singaporean as well? So, who is a ’singaporean’? How many are and how many are not when one says singaporeans are so and so?
What if minority are so-n-so? is it fair to label singaporeans as so-n-so?

Many suffer in silence not having experienced voicing up and have grown up to be timid and kia si and kia su and kia sai.

So, we need TOC to really give more help to the jobless.

At $900 per month, 6 days, night shifts included, weekends compulsory work, it is as low wage as a toilet cleaner or even cardboard collectors. This is competitive salary compared to foreign workers. Who are ok with it. But singaporeans born here need to pay and pay more and more and got min sum to handle and inflation and medical bills and all sorts of hiked prices to handle. They also do not choose to be born here, technically speaking.

I suppose EmploYERS of $900 salary singaporeans also get to enjoy JCS which is how much ??? $$$ ?

A WDA affiliated so-called professional job consultant told me over the phone he heard his WDA got IT job openings many and proposed my profile.
ZERO interview.

At least, hearing there is job openings is better than not hearing such news. But no one knows the reality. Where are the jobs?

CDC and WDA staffs are like those “consultant” in the bank selling minibonds. They aren’t professional, resulting in many jobseekers (especially PMET) being short-changed. Having said that, I noticed a few big recruitment agencies also employed staff to hit certain sales target, thus these staffs can be quite sarcastic or uncompassionate towards job seekers who believe the proposed job did not match the career expectation. If PAP cannot provide the citizen with career but lousy jobs to get by, this country is doomed and all graduates out there better head overseas for greener pasture. Before accepting any jobs, one needs to ask ourselves and answer to our parents, who have invested their savings on us, to find our life long dream. Should we be compromised because our govt said so, and yet the ministers are not even letting down on their obscene salaries?
If Singapore cannot provide dream job for graduates, than where is meritocracy when the salary gap between a foreign villager and Singaporean graduates is so narrow. Time for Singapore graduates to wake up and see what PAP has done to this country. Nothing is too let because they can still be voted out in the coming election.

PMETs are normal Graduate or Diploma Holder looking for Job!

How can we accept the pay less than S pass $1800?

Can Gov wake up the Idea!

hi Gilbert,

I see a contradiction in your article. If you feel that the government shouldn’t be involved in training and job-matching for PMETs, then why are you criticising them for not doing it properly?

@ The People Need TOC: I’m afraid very few people would share your view that NITEC holder is a PMET. So don’t get your hopes up that you deserve a higher pay.

The main issue is whether training and re-training would help the unemployed get jobs. We have to examine why they lost their jobs in the first place.

If it’s due to sunset industries moving out of Singapore, then retraining in newer sectors could help. But a lot depends on what kind of workers the companies wish to hire.

So if it’s due to employers preferring to hire foreigner workers, then it’s just a waste of time. Then again, better to spend your hours in a classroom than while them away at home or in a coffeeshop.

This problem will never go away until the government fundamentally relooks the way it runs the economy.

Then till, we can only depend on ourselves to make the most of a bad situation.

IN THE PRESENT CRISIS WHICH IS A MAJOR CORRECTION OF A FUNDAMENTAL FLAW IN THE GLOBAL FINANCIAL SYSTEM, IT IS NOT LACK OF SKILLSET AND THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE. IT IS SIMPLY LACK OF JOB AVAILABILITY AS THERE IS JUST NOT ENOUGH REAL DEMAND WHICH HAS BEEN ECLIPSED BY SPECULATIVE EXCESSES IN THE PAST YEARS.

For The People Need TOC on June 11th, 2009 10.05 am:

I agree with hansolo on June 11th, 2009 12.07 pm, “employers preferring to hire foreigner workers, then it’s just a waste of time.”. IMHO, I would suggest considering doing what the foreign workers do, become a foreign worker too… in first world countries where there is better pay and employee protection. This forces companies to look into real productivity improvements. In contrast, the Singapore labour setting is just a race to towards more cheap labour, and the workers will only receive the short end of the stick.

I dunno why they keep toking abt courses when the problem are jobs, namely jobs occupied by foreign “talent”.

OK suppose locals got no talent, and after courses got talent, will the foreigners then go home????

How come no one discussed these things and just constantly talked about training training training which does answer any real and relevant questions at all.

All Unemployed O lever and above can sign up as Insurance Agent by Insurance companies allowing more agents to be recruited based on ZERO basic Salary. Yes, absolutely ZERO official basic salary.

Who can tell me like this won’t lower Unemployment rate to sub-1 % ?

Solution provided for unemployment BUT not income issues, i hereby presented.

Other alternative solutions :
1. go ACRA.
2. join MLM.
3. sign up as be housing agent.

I have since learnt more about what unemployment statistics is about.

2) The People Need TOC on June 11th, 2009 10.05 am ,

i agreed with you. if a woman from sabah (article written by MM’s daughter not long ago) can make about $1,300.00 (hope i am not wrong), lots of us singaporean like # 2) are making $900.00 or less, than i say go ahead guys, be a FTs too in other country. i am looking for one too.

I agree with Gilbert that the CDCs and WDA are already over-burdened, no thanks to the Sway fella who keeps harping on his upskilling chant, and some of the added workload must be taken away from their hands so that they can truly go about carrying out their job-matching job.

PMET job-match should not be undertaken by the CDCs and WDA for the reasons stated by Gilbert above. But what are the staff there to do if the Sway fella keep coining new terms to add to their woes?

Having said that, I feel it would be better if there are other avenues for job-match made available to the job-seeker other than through CDCs or WDA. The reason why the CDCs and WDA are undertaking this job is so that the statistics would look good to the PAP government and their downturn program to upturn the downturn. It is only a tool for the CDCs and WDA to later trumpet that they have helped such a number of jobless Singaporeans find jobs.

I do not see how the government cannot find itself to set up an online platform, or any alternative platforms, for companies still hiring to come together and advertise their vacant positions, complete with details of expectations. Job-seekers can then do their own match and apply online etc. Online application and interview can be the first step to a job-seeker’s road to employment – without the need to run all over the island and incurring travel costs which may eat into their finances that are used to sustain the job-seeker until he finds a job.

Of course the biggest benefit to any Singaporean worker looking for a job would be, as hansolo suggested, for the government to get rid of some of the more redundant foreign workers and the way it runs the economy.

aiyoyo

not sure if local sg people earning less than S pass FT holders?

why like that huh?

can elites help out?

aiyoyo

1. Agree with Glibert Goh that PMETs should be handled separately (perhaps like what #13 gemami suggested) because their requirements are more sophisticated. Face to facing counseling services should be focused on the rest of the applicants.

2. But I don’t completely agree with the part about FT taking jobs away. Whether unemployment is due to FT or lack of global demand, re-training is part of renewing the economy. This is also how workers “are forced” to stay relevant and also move up the value chain to earn more before it’s too late (when the industry becomes a subset one like #7 hansolo said) I think the point should be to find a balance rather than staying in our comfort zone by eliminating all FTs even though we don’t need them. (They are other reasons for getting FTs)

This also brings me to my point that the reason for the widening income gap is that the lower income group is not able to make as much progress as the rest; not because the rich is living off the taxes of the poor. For example, when the economy recovers, the higher skilled workers are more likely to find a higher paying job.

“Whether unemployment is due to FT or lack of global demand, re-training is part of renewing the economy.”

re-training ? backward to pre-crisis, are you saying that this has not already been done ? giving visibility by constantly mouthing / emphazing it does not create jobs itself per se. other than the cold comfort that you are trying to help and do something.

“I think the point should be to find a balance rather than staying in our comfort zone by eliminating all FTs even though we don’t need them.”

staying in our comfort zone ? perhaps another 6 months or 1 year down the road will make a lot of people pretty uncomfortable and come back to the table again for yet another round of reassessment. I need to be corrected also, if any.

#17 three objects,

1. I may not sound comforting but it’s true. Re-training whether because one loses his job or so that one can move to a higher paying job is a constant process. This never ends. Although this will get better when the economy recovers, it doesn’t stop.

2. Alternative we can choose to keep status quo and see our real wage depreciate or until the whole economy sinks and yet have become too rigid to change.

14) aiyoyo on June 11th, 2009 1.33 pm ,

aiyoyo, just spent bit of time asking around esp those middle age group and those FTs (S pass and long working here), you will be amazed that it really happened.

but here again, you dont seem to know or sense about it, are you one of those ‘elite’? find out the ‘truth’? it already out there and most ppl know about it.

“Re-training whether because one loses his job or so that one can move to a higher paying job is a constant process.”

In the context of the present situation, there are ample skillful people currently around generally at the required levels (those required for real brick and mortar work not those bothering on fanciful rent-seeking nature).

in fact, current crisis with the attending retrenchments result in many of them floating around. chicken and egg situation where old skilled hands are being nudged out by younger hands (lower cost ??) and where foreign low-cost hands (open door policy) are nudging away our own low-cost locals – a case where convenient excuse can be given that our locals who are having to face a higher local cost structure are shying away from low-cost work.

the missing link is not skill but jobs availability at this moment.

Hi two things and three objects,

Both of you have valid points. Two things is correct to say that re-training has been a part of our work culture for quite some time now and those who have been taking advantage of any skill-renewal programs will attest to having seen their prospects improved over time.

However, Three objects could also be right in that all the upskilling and retraining have not brought the Singapore worker any closer to the benefits of improved prospects. And the FT has something to do with this.

Let me explain. In my workplace, I have about 80 employees in the department. Twenty of them are foreigners, from Burma, Vietnam, Philippines and India. The positions they are employed for can easily go to a Singaporean with either N or O levels education. But because it is so easy for the company to employ degree holders, some are doctors whose PHD are not recognized in Singapore, but doctors all the same, it becomes so much more prudent to employ the foreigner over the Singaporean. The foreigner is alone in a foreign land, can work extra hours for free, or for a nominal overtime fee, after the normal office hours. He is more knowledgeable than an N or O level Singaporean. Graduates doing clerical work and being paid clerical salary of $1300 to $1700. That’s a lot of money for a foreigner from a third world country. Imagine 20 of them depriving Singaporeans of 20 job vacancies.

These are the type of FTs that can be sent home. The economy will not suffer one bit without them.

So the bottom line is that the government must, after making it conducive for Singaporeans to upgrade their skills to stay relevant, ensure that there are jobs out there for these people. And to do this, some of the FTS, from every levels, must be told to pack up and leave so that the locals do not have to compete for survival in his own home land.

Not to blame the Foreigner Talents but MOM policies!

Work Permit $500 – O level below!
S Pass $1800 – Diploma Holder or Associate Professional
E Pass $2500 – Degree Holders

Who the hell on earth set these Wage Level based on Education Level rather than Talents Based!

So Steve Jobs, Bill Gates without Degree get $1800. It is not education level that matter but innovation, products that are able to sell to the world!

Singapore is in such a miserable state that structure unemployment occurs cause no one want our product! Everyone get Samsungs Handphone and Taiwan, China Computers!

If you are already a degree holder, you expect the govt to pay for your MBA or Phd is it? You wait long long! Govt can only help those from illiterate to tietiary qualification coz their course fees for re-training are much cheaper & these group of ppl are more willing to take up jobs that offers lower pay or in another industry that differs from their pre-retrenched job. Look at the minibond saga, if you are illiterate you get compensation. If you’ve a degree, you get nothing & serve you right!

21) gemami on June 11th, 2009 3.59 pm

well, you have explained it all – with factual ground example. what can i say more.

Retrain, re-skill or up-skill are waste of time, effort and resource if and when at the end, no job are available to those who took the courses.

As Gemami had shown, many of the posts(jobs) are taken up by foreigners due to reasons advantageous to employers.

There is in fact a very vicious consequential effect which has not been mentioned and that is many of these retrained, re-skilled and up-skilled personnels are used by employers to replace their existing staff in and with similar skills. The new entrants will start on contractual basis with a lower basic salary and lesser incentives such as shift, uniform, meal and hazard allowances, medical benefits, etc. Here, one can see that replacement of worker(s) results in no increase in employment as each new worker merely replaces an existing one who will have to start from ground zero again. The only difference now is that employers can save costs whereas worker’s pays get depressed.

The solution to employment problems offered by the Labour Leaders so far have failed to produce positive result because the solutions offered generate another NEW but similar problem which has a vicious character of depressing the wage further. So, not only problem is not solved, it gets more vicious.

I’m a degree holder with 10 years engineering experience when I went to a mass recruitment drive, do you know what the company offer me? Snr Technician…where entry level is NTC with 5 years experience. I do not understand how the company match jobs, I really wanted to ask the director, would he get a job as a janitor?

Degree Holders No Big Deals nowsaday and don’t expect you will better off than others.

Just like the ISO 9000 thing when all have the Cert, it become worthless and useless. Unless you had something other ppls don’t have like “son of LKY”!
HaHa!

26) nottrivial on June 11th, 2009 5.28 pm

like i have already explained. it is not skillset. it is the job availability. the upgrading and retraining is all noise and smokescreen which you will keep on encountering with those fire-fighters around here in this site.

not to understate the hardwork you have put in and difficulty that you have encountered; and to drive across my point, perhaps to get an engineering position, you are encouraged to upgrade yourself to the level of a nuclear scientist.

Singapore Engineers from NUS NTU all got problem cause they can’t Think & Design anything like iPhone!

Look at the Taiwanese, their Engineer are only recognised when they got Master, PHD and certain years of experience!

Lee Bee Wah President of Insitute of Engineers not only need to resign from STTA but IEEE!

What a shame when we call ourselves Engineer!

I like to ask the engineers in this forum, do you do it because you really love engineering and have the gifted ability or do you do it because of the good pay & status that come with it? My hunch is many, like sheep led to industrial pens, have gone into it because an engineer is better than say being a chef, and since the Govt promoted it, it must be guaranteed bright future. When the industry is over subscribed, of course those average engineers or those who scratch only the surface will be finished. But if you had gone into it because of your gifted ability & love for it, firstly you won’t mind the lower pay when times are bad, secondly you will be needed in engineering firms because you are good. Society will be full of happy and useful people.

The Spore education system is exam oriented, not developing and nurturing oriented, it does not promote excelling in your own abilities and interest whatever that may be. As long as the exams are difficult and you excel in it, thats all it matters in Spore. No thanks also to the Govt who only credits academic acheivements highly, and forget about crediting skills and other abilities.

That said, there are and will be lots of very skilled and good employable people in Spore including engineers. Since there is little opportunity for you in Spore, the world is your oyster! especially for those who are really good in what you do or have a passion, you are more likely to do very well overseas where there is lots of room for creativity and seeing your ideas through.

I have an idea.
Convert all unemployed into students.
They official get out of unemployment statistics.
Most students usually have zero income.
The key is to put them in courses that last as long as the recession.
When they graduate, even if they dont take any course, at boom time,
everyone gets hired and paid better.

So, the key to unemployement is to go for courses that last as long as the recession , whatever the duration. You also get to say you are not unemployed as you are a student.

Bravo!
Best solution so far.
Unemployment is easy to solve.
I think 0.9% unemployment rate is what I am comfortable can be achieved with this Brilliant solution which I proposing. copyright.

Dear AngelVision,

Allow me to relate my personal story. For the better half of my early working life I went after jobs that were related to my interests. The first job allowed me to travel and i was fortunate enough to have visited countries I would only have dreamt of visiting if I had opted for a deskbound job. I did this for a good six to seven years.

After that, for the next fifteen years, I decided to test my creativity in a job that stretched both the imagination as well as the use of the hands.

When I reached he age of 35 years, I was awakened to the fact that I needed a job that guaranteed security and a steady flow of income, which my previous job was not able to provide. Setting up my own family was also another consideration that pushed me toward this direction.

It was then that I decided to take up a deskbound job. At that time, the job market was not very good. 35 year olds were considered too old. I took a job that paid barely $1000 and gave myself 10 years to work my way up. Ten years later, and with lots of academic upgrading, I climbed from being an attendent to an executive earning much more than when I had started.

My account is to illustrate that in Singapore, one has to conform to get somewhere. If you don’t you will forever be struggling to keep pace. This is oh so wrong.

It does not end here. Now that I have managed to achieve something, I begin to worry that should I lose my job now, I will become one of the jobless PMET, unable to secure a job unless I go back to ground zero and begin all over again. All my effort in upgrading the self becomes a useless endeavour.

What nonsense it is then if the government keeps harping on upgrading when there is no jobs, or when the jobs are occupied by FTs. Create the jobs first, then get the people to upgrade and reskill and whatever.

I have a diploma and I am jobless since Dec 2008.

I’ve applied for lots of jobs with literally ZERO reply. There’s totally ZERO calls and my email inbox as well. I am still applying currently.

I went to e2i and all they could do was to tell me attend the Professional Skills Programme (PSP) Executive Workshop for PMETs to “improve participant’s knowledge about the job market as well as to facilitate a positive change in attitudes and behaviours that allow participants to remain relevant to the employment market”. Yes, this is cut and paste from the slip they gave me.

Now, after reading the comments above, I am really not hopeful. Though I agree that relying on the government too much is not good, when you’ve done your part and there’s nothing, what are we to do if not go to the government?? Force the company to employ us? Beg for employment? Become maids and construction workers??

7) hansolo
///hi Gilbert,

I see a contradiction in your article. If you feel that the government shouldn’t be involved in training and job-matching for PMETs, then why are you criticising them for not doing it properly?////

So true.
More contradiction in the title
///Workforce Development Agency has failed to help more sophisticated jobseekers.///

Sophisticated? If they are, why are they running to WDA?

///#2 The People Need TOC: I’m afraid very few people would share your view that NITEC holder is a PMET. So don’t get your hopes up that you deserve a higher pay.////

///6) TrubBlood Singaporean -PMETs are normal Graduate or Diploma Holder looking for Job! How can we accept the pay less than S pass $1800?///

Some with not even a primary 6 cert do fantastically well , some with a PhD dont do too well. To do well in your life , requires more than a cert.

By demanding that you should be paid $x dollar is alreday the first step in the wrong direction.

30) AngelVision ////////// I like to ask the engineers in this forum, do you do it because you really love engineering and have the gifted ability or do you do it because of the good pay & status that come with it////////////

Some end up in it because their grade wasn’t good enough for the course they desired.

When a employer post a vacancy in an online job portal, the kind of application one gets from a applicant from the Philliphines, from India and Chian, are usually very well written CVs, photos and elaborate details, and all. And from a local grad, you get a email asking what is the pay? What is the working hours. Need to work on Saturday?

////////Hello,

I saw the ad on your website for the ***** position. I’m a recent graduate currently looking for a full time job. I’m not sure if you’re looking for a *** or a more *** position, but I’m feeling bored just staying at home doing nothing and decided to do something constructive with my time in between job applications. I have a passion for **** in general, so I thought I’d give this a shot.

I’m available most if not all days, and should I manage to score a full time job soon I’d still be able to spare some time on weekends. I can be contacted at 9******. Thank you for your time.

Regards,//////

If you are an employer would you hire this person?

33) jobless soul

Remember the sotory of the farmer and the rabbit?

///#2 The People Need TOC: I’m afraid very few people would share your view that NITEC holder is a PMET. So don’t get your hopes up that you deserve a higher pay.////
========================

Allow me to educate you in public :
Definition of PMET : http://www.pmet.com.sg/
See that ‘T’ ? T means Technicians.

Yes, it is true you can anyhow say what you wanna say like that siah suay Say and Say. But! it does not mean nothing to me or people who have intellectual capacity to find out the truth themselves and not go on living based on blind trust.
With a name like yours, I take 1 container of salt when i read your comments.
Yes, people may not feel that NITEC is PMET. BUT! that is not important. The Truth is more important. ‘T’ in PMET stands for Technician.

Many ITE courses require O Level grades . NITEC is diploma level, in my view. ITE produce many engineering technicians and some go as far as polys , universities getting even PhDs. To further educate yourself on the NITEC courses , visit :
http://www.ite.edu.sg/~aoweb/full_time_training/nitec_ncn.htm

revert and let the world know if you still need further education on this subject matter.

you are once again debunked , in my view.

Yes, the whole PMET assistance scheme is a farce. WDA et al, are govt agencies more traditionally geared towards rank and file programs, mostly run by people who themselves have probably never worked in a private company before. PMETs of the sort referred to here at TOC are generally regarded by administrators of such programs as capable of taking care of themselves. It is only this time around when the economy is so bad that MOM and WDA etc are swamped, and to reflect the govt’s spin and confidence in tackling the problem, try hard to put on a “happy face” to tackle the crisis of high retrenchment numbers. But since it is a veneer, it wears off easily and warts and boils are showing. Basically, the govt AND the NTUC despite all their manufactured spin, are unable to really do anything about it. It has been a bug fat lie that the govt is able to create jobs- for a long time, they have stopped doing that after China became a world factory!

“By demanding that you should be paid $x dollar is alreday the first step in the wrong direction.”

Does this statement also apply to the supermen at the parlourmentary pedestal.

You should stick to your kopitiam

Eh, #39 is talking to you lah Apek.

by the way, give me 30 cups of kopi hum mai hum, stirled not shaken. wash your hands after u visit the loo for hygiene of all kopi takers.

“Some end up in it because their grade wasn’t good enough for the course they desired.”

So ???? I am sure there are plenty of such cases in real life. so does it mean that they should be resigned to this fact and not deserving for the position applied for, and worst still banned from applying any position that is not related at all from their paper qualifications.

you should stick to your kopitiam.

Very very simple logic.

Our government, the left hand DO NOT KNOW what the right hand is doing.

On one hand we sing the tune of training Singaporean.
On another hand we say Singaporean are no good, must bring in Foreign Talent.

Don’t waste your time here.

33) jobless soul on June 11th, 2009 9.19 pm I have a diploma and I am jobless since Dec 2008.

…….
I went to e2i and all they could do was to tell me attend the Professional Skills Programme (PSP) Executive Workshop for PMETs to “improve participant’s knowledge about the job market as well as to facilitate a positive change in attitudes and behaviours that allow participants to remain relevant to the employment market”. Yes, this is cut and paste from the slip they gave me.
=================================================

Maybe if the course stretch till next year and when economy comes back to life thanks to Obama and his administration, you may be presented with 2 jobs : 1 is the job you were used to before recession and one as a greenhorn freshie in your new skill acquired. When that happens, I suspect your original kind of profession will pay you much more than the new skill one. but then this is just me-speculation.

So, the trick is to go for course for as long as the recession lasts. get the drift?

As for me, I went for the interview and they told me surely by this week they will tell me true or false. till now, no news. i suspect i will be called up to attend another e2i soon. next week. they keep calling and make you feel there is really job opportunity. hey, who is to say there is none? no proof wor. so, it is nevertheless a feel good experience to keep the spirits up and feel gratitude to them. i dunno singaporeans so kind wor. hee heee. I heard some are RC members but no proof. I heard from 1 of the attendees there he recognise one of them as WCA, work care agents. wah, thanks to grassroots people wor. so gratitude sure support them wor.

i watch knn and not cnn.

Was also assigned to a WDA job consultant and promise this and promise me that. But eventually no call from him or the supposing company who wanted to employ Singaporeans liked me. During the phone conversation with him, he gave me pap-talks saying need to get myself in the job market etc.

But it more than 1 month since and no job interview let alone a job…….

I think its hog wash by gov who promise but failed to deliver.

honesty is what i am looking for.
employers if got no immediate job openings should give honest replies to candidates, not that anyone is not honest. just a ’should’.

“If you are an employer would you hire this person?”

Definitely will hire this person but he will be specifically tasked to serve you (as you are very special) only with black coffee brewed with unsold discarded old ginger & tinged with the juice of raw hums just so that your senile head will stay unsenile.

now any more letters or emails from you just to paint some bad picture.

all jobless PMETs now on WDA or E2i courses are like GSS- local labour on sale. in employers eyes foreign imports are cheaper & better, how to win?

somemore papers reported S’pore moved up in ranking for being more expensive than before.

personally, after 1 time going to CDC for help, i not going back liao. dunno i unlucky or what, that employer i was matched with got a mood as uncertain as stock market.

Go and have a look at e2i site. You’ll see that the estimated average salary is about 1,200 – 1,300. Highest is >4,000 for Vp of School. So it is a fact that singaporeans taking job at e2i will be getting lower than s-pass holders. I believe that most job offers will be in the range of 800 – 1,500.

Anyone losing their job now, must be content with this kind of salaries, regardless of you past earnings. If you don’t take it, it’s minus 3,000 every month from your savings to pay for your basic expenses.

So, still going to vote the same people who sell you out? Those who haven’t fallen into this situation, it may be your turn next so do yourself a favour and save yourself on the ballot paper.

42) To the Frequently Debunked KopitiamApek

//// Eh, #39 is talking to you lah Apek.////
Really. Please check again.

//// the Frequently Debunked ////
by whom? you? than it is ok, considering the stuff you wrote ” give me 30 cups of kopi hum mai hum, stirled not shaken. wash your hands after u visit the loo for hygiene of all kopi takers” it is not deserving of a reply. You are humilaiting no one but yourself.
I will respond to intellectual challenges to my view point, when I read one.
Thank you.

I think policy makers deserve to be given a chance to demonstrate that their scheme is working for PMETs. Ok, I’ll wait. The fact is I have been waiting since Day 1 when the scheme is launched and I saw nothing.
I may sound real arrogant and self-centered, but there are 1001 ways to convince the public with both quantitative and qualitative results, but I saw none of the arguments displayed. My apologies if I refrain from making mention how this could be done, because I do not even want policy makers to view my ideas here, and implement to their own credit. Anything details further than this will have to be on a commercial basis :-)

i do feel that many questions if not all questions posed here on TOC are never given a reply by ‘them’. Unless, someone can prove to me those replies. Ok, even if prolly 1 or 2, But out of how many million questions asked?

Whatever CLAIMED by them, they should be able to show independent party assessable and certifiable results. How they come up this and that numbers.
Trust is fine. I also can say i trust them. but in this day and age, especially after the min bon bons and losses, this 5 letter word is now banned in my dictionary and replaced by evidence.

Put it this way, I beg to be impressed with evidence. solid and beyond reasonable doubt, fully verfiable by truely independent 3rd party.

hi kf,

yeah, be careful of anyone challanging anyone else online to come up with a better idea. such people may be the ‘runners’ sent by elites to source for free ideas.

Never Degrade Yourself and Beg for a Job less than S pass $1800.

You not only insult yourself but NUS, NTU degree!

With Pride with Live and I can even sell my HDB as I don’t have sense of belonging in this country.

Why 95% male bare Arm just to protect 5% of elite who got no challenges in elections! Let them taste what is a competitive economy like in the real world!

just to add, maybe that is why opposition party just shut up & sit down when “somebody” makes a blunder.

“who spill the milk, go take mop ownself clean up his/her own mess.”

no mollycoddling!! :P

So what Retraining is Required!

LKY is a Lawyer and does he had to be Retrain to be a Doctor or
A Engineer had to be Retrain to be an Accountant!

All is about Market Forces and Not Certificate! Singaporean being trained under PAP fall to realise that very simple logic!

Even MOM is setting that kind of Guideline based on Cert not Skill Sets in Foreign Talents!

53) kf

//// Anything details further than this will have to be on a commercial basis////
real arrogant and self-centered, in your own words.
you do know yourself well.

“//// Anything details further than this will have to be on a commercial basis////
real arrogant and self-centered, in your own words.
you do know yourself well.”

i thought this was similar to the money-for-high-talent mantra occasionally echoed by your supermen. does this arrogance and self-centreness also apply to them.

52) KopitiamApek on June 12th, 2009 9.01 pm
“I will respond to intellectual challenges to my view point, when I read one.”

They are becoming scare as more and more are being laid openly onto the table for all too see. Socialization of challenges and intelligence (oops your view of course).

60) KopiMai???

2 wrongs do not make 1 right.
Your answer is irrelevant.

“2 wrongs do not make 1 right.
Your answer is irrelevant.”

If that is the case, why not you spend more time educating them (supermen) as they are setting a very bad example for lesser people to follow. If supermen can say one thing and get away (creating more visibility of bad example) and still expect non-supermen to do otherwise, how can ? Standard is precisely set in this manner with different branches of arms slowly grabbing & enveloping each strata of society.

So is the answer still irrelevant.

63) KopiMai???

Yes.

I think I am having an exchange with someone out there with a split personality : )

“Yes”

surprise, surpise on such glaring double-standard. well, the show must still go on.

seems like this KopitiamApek is very frequently hijacking this thread.
here is the real kopitiamahsoh: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKczsruXZcM
funny moments:
@ 2min 36 seconds
@ 3min 20 seconds

injoy!

67) Kopi O neng liab MAI neng kak
////is very frequently hijacking this thread////

So views that are no similar to yours is hijacking? You want all similar views here? What a contradiction to all your ranting.

“So views that are no similar to yours is hijacking? You want all similar views here? What a contradiction to all your ranting.”

Having not similar views are ok. but when it is to the extent of readily accepting double standard, what do you call this ? senile (for lack of better words) ? perhaps you may have that kind of kopi wisdom of not calling your own double standard as contradiction but as intellectual challenge.

69) KopiMai???

OIC, so aviews that are not similar to yours is hijackingccepting or double standard

I still think I am having an exchange with someone out there with a split (and progressing to mutiple) personality : )

Be couragous, stick to one nick

Correction with apologies:

OIC, so views that are not similar to yours is hijacking or double standard

kekekekeke hahaahaha

look who’s talking? Oh, its Apek again!

“Be couragous, stick to one nick” kekekekek hahahaha

words from a guy called “KopitiamApek” asking people to use 1 nick?

“a split (and progressing to mutiple) personality ”

using a nick is that not multi-personality? your regular self and name and another personality called KopitiamApek?

hmmmm…… sometimes, i really thought u are simply trying to be funny.

in case u wondering, i am not Kopimai.

TOC About us :///It is our hope that through the honest and civil exchange of views, all of us will benefit and perhaps take public discourse, especially on controversial issues, to a higher and mature level.///

“Civil exchange” and “mature level” can be seen in quite a number of the posts by regulars,
but to a certain extend, TOC gets dominated by those who are not tops at “Civil exchange” and “mature level”, and many posts tend to denegerate into government bashing irrespective of the subject, personal attacks of dissending views, and religous quarrelling.

My 2 cents worth of observation.

Apek, show us your real identity in order to walk the talk .
Else, u know what to do. Go Forth.

So What if I know Partial Differentiation Equations, Modelling of 2nd Order System or Artifical Intelligent but dont know how to innovate product like iPhone is useless!

Singapore is good at training Management Idols who push other to do but don’t know themselves! Leverage on others or Mass exploitation like the elite!
That why China Chinese rather deals with the Taiwanese!

Hope this Recession will bring a total collapse in this so called Singapore System and let the elite wake up their idea!

PMETs, are you in your 40s or 50s, retrenched and jobless?

Have you save enough to last the rest of your life?

If so, just retire and live a simple life.

Thanks all for your kind comments. I have read them all.

Moving forward, Singaporeans need to be extra sensitive to the world economy and not allow our govt to dictate what we should work for and what kind of retraining to go for.

To me, retraining could be a short term solution to a serious problem in our economy.

An article here also spoke about the damage of a heavy dependence on an export economy.

We all perhaps need to plan for oursevlves abit moe than depending on the govt to hand us jobs.

I am sure they are at their ends’ wit and pretty unsure of what to do next.

If there are jobs for the unemployed in the 1st place, there would not be as much unemployment problems.

Its the Ability to create jobs for all.

Delivering news papers, anyone can do. this $500 job a month will not enough to survive nor retire. Unemployment rate can still be zero , theoretically, if for each unemployed , say manager, there is 1 newspaper delivery job paying $500.

Did anyone fail to see my point?

Its the ABILITY to create meaningful jobs for citizens who DO HAVE the qualifications that are more than just news paper delivery.

another example : employ all unemployeds for $1 basic salary with commission for insurance sold. There is no unemployment problem based on this model. There is or may be still INCOME and livelihood problem even if 100% Employment rate.

Can someone please solve this?

USA pls save me.

#78,

As long as majority (66%) have jobs that fit their ability, PAP don’t worry whether you are unemployed, employed below your ability, underpaid or whatever.

Because if majority are satisfied they will vote PAP and PAP will win the election.

Also Singaporeans dare not become opposition or protest on the streets, so there will also be 50% walkovers and the streets are peaceful.

And with that PAP has 98% of the seats every time. So much so they feel “paiseh” (embarassed) and will give 9 NCMPs to the opposition at the next election!

“OIC, so aviews that are not similar to yours is hijackingccepting or double standard.”

views that are not similar to one can be considered hijacking (if it is lah), it is ok lah (post of hijacking was not mine lah) as long as the platform to freely rebut is there lah.

views that are not similar to one can be considered double standard lah (some of the posts above clearly say so lah). somemore want to argue unless the nick kopitiam has also been used by several people or someone with split personality lah. maybe it should not be called double standard but kopitiam apek standard lah.

I am about to take up a job offer that pays 800 a month.
I have an incamp training for about 9 days soon. I told the employer this . He told me he will employ me after the ICT.
I said, during that period, there will be no choice on the employer but the employer insist to defer my employment date. I am so sad. I will not be compensated during this ICT.

I called the MOM line and its busy.

I just i just have to makan myself.

Errata:

“I am about to take up a job offer that pays 800 a month. It suppose to start this week.
I have an incamp training for about 9 days 2 weeks after the supposed start-date. I told the employer this . He told me he will employ me after the ICT instead.”

Errata2:

“I said, during that period, there will be NO Salary COST to the employer as army will pay for it but the employer insist to defer my employment date.”

in the eyes of gov.sg

FTs are wired
sinkees are tired
older sinkees are expired

83) Employer deferred employment due to ICT NS

It’s just bad timing. You have your valid points, and I am sure the employer decided not to take you b ased on his own valid points.
Move on, do not stop looking, perhaps, philosophically, you were meant for a better job than this one, thus this obstacle was placed on your path.
One day you may look back and say it was good timing.

There was once an old man who lived with his only son at the border of the state. They were fond of horses and often let them graze freely in the meadow.

One day a servant reported to the old man, “A horse is missing.”

His friends felt sorry for him, but the old man was not bothered at all by the loss. As a matter of fact, he said, “Who knows? The loss may bring us good fortune.”

A few months later a servant reported to the old man, “The missing horse has returned and has brought with it a fine horse from the neighbouring state.”

When his friends heard the news, they congratulated the old man on his good fortune. But the old man said, “Who knows? This may bring us ill fortune.”

You may have read this story:
One day when the old man’s son was riding a horse, he accidentally fell off the horse, broke his leg.

That year, all the able-bodied men were drafted to fight a war and most of them got killed. The old man’s son was not drafted because he was still recovering from his injury, and so his life was spared.

What seems like misfortune may turn out to be a blessing in disguise.

Stay positive.

hi Employer deferred employment due to ICT NS on June 15th, 2009 4.04 pm,

i was in a similiar situation before, maybe will be again this year. just too bad for those with annual NS commitment. however short, it is very disruptive to jobseeker.

no S’porean advatage here….

“That year, all the able-bodied men were drafted to fight a war and most of them got killed. The old man’s son was not drafted because he was still recovering from his injury, and so his life was spared.”

aiyoh. such a lame story. maybe you could see quite a number of fortunate few who get to ride the horses (white horse ?) without falling and yet will not get drafted when the war comes.

If you can see such scenario already being unshamelessly played out in peace time, what do you think will happen in war time. just to expand on your kopitiam wisdom (double-standard ?) a little bit.

“Move on, do not stop looking, perhaps, philosophically, you were meant for a better job than this one, thus this obstacle was placed on your path. One day you may look back and say it was good timing.”

Apek, you sure can talk c**k. it is like saying it is OK if you lose tons of money, because you will definitely make tons of money another day. Amazing c**k theory

I could not agree more with the writer, to make the SPUR programme more liberal for jobless PMETs. And, the course providers should make the application process much easier and the subsidy to be more generous in order to really help the needy lots.

Why SAF don’t take in Unemployed Singaporean and Pay them Market Rate of at least $2K/month!

Flat Hope!

Can anyone pls enlighten me or give a few examples of the SPUR courses. Does this include say letter writing, report writing, marketing or website development, optimisation or design, professional photography etc type of courses? If not what type of programmes or courses are included in SPUR? Had a look at the website, it tells nothing of specific courses. Its more like advertising the NUS & NTU academic courses.

hi TrueBlood Singaporean on June 16th, 2009 6.05 pm,

SAF should pay reservists who are out-of-job an hourly rate that equivalent of the regular during their ICT.

SAF should not take in unemployment too easily as in the end will still burden taxpayers. unless to weed out underperformers…

86) mice is nice on June 15th, 2009 11.13 pm
>>>hi Employer deferred employment due to ICT NS on June 15th, 2009 4.04 pm,

i was in a similiar situation before, maybe will be again this year. just too bad for those with annual NS commitment. however short, it is very disruptive to jobseeker. <<<<

Sad to hear this happened to a few people at least.

Well, I think #83 may not get the job when he finish the ICT for following reasons (but i hope he gets it):

1. the employer has not given him a contract to sign. The singapore employer postpone the date. Anything can happen in several weeks.

2. the singapore company employer may not need to wait for this resource given that in this recession, tons of freshies are virtually ‘begging’ to be employed at any salary. Further, there is a almost ‘infinite’ supply of foreign workers who regard $800 a month as good enough salary to come here for. PRs family members may be here and gotten PR also and looking for job as well.

That said, I wish that none of these scenarios happen to #83 and the singapore employer honour his words. I hope #83 tape recorded what they promised (hahaha, kidding only). In any case, business operators are ‘king’ and dictate the employment. They can say anything and get away with it as long as they say, “business requirement changed”.

While employers can say no one owes you a living, we expect some integrity and honesty also. Likewise, ’some people’ elites must be taught a lesson also that “NO ONE OWES THEM A LIVING”, that their ricebowl is not guaranteed as well. They need to have competition and work hard for every cent given to them. This, only the rest of us can ensure they are kept on their toes.

hi Hikari Alfons,

its a pity S’pore is too pro-employer. the needs of employees (except maybe only civil servants?) are too often brushed aside wih little recourse. while i do understand the need for employers to fill positions without delay, its sad that corporate social responsbility is never part of Asian values, at least more so in S’pore’s context.

when employing people, there always is a social dimension to even business decision, i dunno how employers can always say its purely a business decision.

It’s ok. Come 2011, you know who to vote. ;)

e2i, CDC, MPS are all useless! If there really are jobs, people would already be employed.

Also, if they have so many jobs available, are we in a recession period or job-booming period? It’s strange that in this recession suddenly we have thousands of jobs opening up suddenly.