Our reply (view original letter here):
I refer to the letter of Mr Lionel De Souza on 15 June.
The Online Citizen (TOC) consistently practices a policy of community moderation, which relies on a process of reader feedback and moderator responsibility. Our comment filter is programmed to exclude comments which contain terms and references that might promote enmity between different races or religions, or which might be defamatory.
Additionally, we rely on reader feedback to identify and remove such comments. This form of moderation on the basis of community feedback was most recently practiced during the Aware issue.
In relation to the eight alleged offending comments, if Mr De Souza had raised his concerns directly to TOC, we would be happy to consider removing them if they were indeed a potential violation of the law. Naturally, as the parties who have the most to lose if prosecuted, we have an interest in taking such constructive feedback very seriously.
Unfortunately, Mr De Souza sent us no such notification or email.
Maturity in public discourse can only arise with a willingness to engage parties with whom you disagree. In choosing instead to appeal to the heavy hand of the regulatory authority, Mr De Souza has chosen to bypass a far more effective solution to the problems he is alleging: community moderation.
Mature public discourse is also not served with Mr De Souza’s ad hominem attack on our writers and commentors, whom he calls “nonsensical, crude and not worth reading”. Ironically, his is precisely the sort of online language that makes it easy to negatively stereotype online discourse.
This vitriol can only lead a discerning member of the public to question what his personal motives are in writing his letter.
Choo Zheng Xi
Editor-in-Chief
The Online Citizen
———————————————————————————————————————————————–
Letter of complaint (view original letter here):
Immediately after the report, “8 weeks’ jail each” (June 11), there are as of June 14, a total of 86 posts by anonymous bloggers on The Online Citizen’s (TOC) website.
I have no quarrel with these as most of the posts are nonsensical, crude and not worth reading. However, I came across 8 posts which to my mind have the tendency to espouse religious disharmony. These irresponsible and insensitive bloggers may, whether consciously or unconsciously by their comments (posts) sowed seeds that may inevitably promote religious disharmony or feelings of enmity between different religious groups.
Hence, the conduct of the perpetrators of the posts may probably be a transgression of section 298A of the Penal Code, (Chapter 224) – “ Promoting enmity between different groups on grounds of religion or race and doing acts prejudicial to maintenance of harmony.”
The moderation clause of TOC expressly stipulates that it reserves the right to moderate, edit, disallow, remove or delete comments posted on their website which are deemed to be unwarranted and are racially offensive remarks or religiously insensitive or provocative.
I am of the opinion that TOC’s moderators have in this instance failed to exercise due diligence by allowing comments laced with insensitive religious connotations to be published on their website with regard to the topic “Perdition and sedition.”
I therefore urge the Media Development Authority of Singapore to look into the conduct of TOC’s moderators, and seek an explanation for their omission in ensuring that their website will in future not be used to ignite the flames of religious disharmony.
Lionel De Souza
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@28 Jonah.
YUP! SO DARN TRUE! WOOHOOOOO. free advertistment for TOC by this jabbering guy. somebody, please “thank” him in a way! :D
Lionel De Souza forever Lionel De Souza – very megalomaniac of him to make such a sweeping statement that most of the posts are nonsensical and not worth reading – but why so patient then and want to read so many to conclude them as worthless – normally, I would just scant through them and would not be so stupid to even read majority of them. Btw , this letter of yours – give us an impression that you are a keen neitzen of TOC
” 8 weeks” jail ‘” was about an intransigent mature couiple who knowingly did what they knew were wrong – their actions certainly irked many : especially from a religion pespective – so we would expect many to delve into religions – and accordingly would expect many ST readers to display such diverse views and comments when such prominent news coverage appears in ST too – so why are you singling out TOC and accusing them of allowing neitzens to sow seeds of discord and enmity and religious disharmony. I am certain you know very well the implication of your utterance – why are you doing this ?.
You even went to the extent of prompting MDA to take action for allowing TOC to do such and such – which we utterly disagree on the basis of it being untrue – after all, comments are all about differing and diverse views
But dun know why leh,I dun see anything wrong with TOC .Maybe someone is just too sensitive
“2) smallvice585 on June 16th, 2009 1.23 pm
Lionel De Souza must be sore on how he was ridiculed by commentators in this TOC article from last month.”
That pretty much sums up everything!
This Society is getting less tolerant and the people are lacking grace and magnanimity.
Lionel….go to Iran..they are hiring.
I have seen two people picked up from my hotel for saying something against the mullahs..who happen to be in the same hotel.
Today Iran is changing….people please spare a thought for them..wonderful people..the Irani’s
Lionel De Souza
Look forward to yr complaint to PMO on the postings in REACH, ST.
But as you are 120% behind govmin institutions, I think only silence will happen.
BTW what trouble you got into with govmin?
Lionel, why don’t you comment on the nonsense posted on STOMP as well?
@55) anakin – Great idea. Actually, TOC should do a write up on STOMP. I think it would be interesting to read.
And anyway, regarding this issue, I think that TOC readers have shown far more maturity than in most other forums on the internet. I like how Lionel proceeded to not mention how those who posted inflammatory comments were chided and reprimanded by the rest of the posters as well as the mods.
But as for the ridiculous posts on REACH, ST Online, well … I sadly find too many people agreeing with them rather than reprimanding them for being intolerant and insensitive.
We should start a Hug De Souza campaign.
Dear All,
Let’s not get our knickers in a knot. Knotty knickers are not fun.
Lionel has written a note (to unrelated media) to complain about TOC and that’s his prerogative. Having said that, the proper thing for him to have done (and I trust he is reading this) is to complain to the editors of TOC and have the offending comments removed or edited. He rightly pointed out that TOC reserves the right to do as such. Why didn’t he exercise it?
As a Christian and a Singaporean of minority roots (Indian lah!), I did not find any of the comments made offensive enough to have warranted a note to TODAY or ST or whatever. It would have been more productive and less shrill to have just written to TOC.
Nevermind.
In any case, I am curious as too why TODAY carried the letter? Would they have carried the letter if the complain was about ST, BT or TNP?
I love you Lionel De Souza.
You are the kind of sugar I would love to hug and kiss.
Can we meet somewhere to have a drink or not?
Hi Benedict. Yours is the voice of sanity and reason.
Why did TODAY carry the letter?
Perhaps, it was a “safe” letter — one that reflected that media has the nation-building role of making sure that what gets published is non-critical of establishment.
Perhaps, it did not have any other “safe” letter to publish. These days, letter writers and forumers are highly critical of how things are going down the drain. And can we blame them? They are merely reflecting what the man on the ground thinks.
Can Lionel help write to Straits Times and ask about Temesek Holdings and GIC ..as well as Town Councils lost investments?
Can’t imagine what kind of disharmony it creates when organisations loose money that belong to people. Lionel, your money is in there too. So must ask ok?
Wait ..someone said sent email to PMO ..i think that’s the more direct route he should take. Send email to PM and ask him these questions …we need MPs who like to probe deeper.
BTW guys. Who is this guy who complain to MDA. Anyone enlighten me?
@ Yang,
this shameless suck up artist is complaining about petty stuff when he should be focusing on real issues that affect every citizen. Like many have mentioned, losses in Temasek, GIC, Town council, increase in CPF minimum sum, etc,etc.
Hi Yang,
Lionel De Souza is a wanabe from YPAP. He was a former policemen and currently a private investigator. I don’t think he is actually young anymore..
Thank you guys for your info. See whether he guts to post his comment in this web page. let’s see and wait. Cheers to TOC. I love all of you!!!!!
Hi,
He is a 63 year old man, used to be a police officer, fought with the underworld before and now fights those who are against the establishment
Lionel, you should stop licking boots because you are too old to
be invited for tea
Lionel …TALL GUY ..for an old dude… bi-specticle too … like hanging out with the Eurasian Community ..i wonder if his any relations with Chris De Souza?
Lionel …is Eurasian …tall dud with specs
I have saved at least thousands since around 2001 (coincidentally the election year. but dun anyhow think hor this is pure coincidence only).
The reason is to save and save to pay and pay the hikes and hikes, which already happened many times since 2001.
These savings are not sufficient but useful money nevertheless.
So, I need to check with you readers, HAS TH said the numerous numerous reports by non-singapore news and agencies across the entire world and even the CyberSPACE is the TRUTH , the whole TRUTH and nothing but the truth already?????
I beg you, someone pls comfom comfom. Else, next time, I not sure how to comment without this fact.
The last I heard is it has said something like those are unsourced report which I not sure means what?
In case I get misunderstood for posting irrelevance,
my purpose to find out the status of TH news is so that I can ask LDS
if he has QUESTIONED TH with the same panache ?
I am impressed by IDS. I hope he runs for SMC.
We should not complain about TOC.
Such criticisms or comments could be put to good use in formulating effective and relevant policies.
But I not sure if IPS have found this blog informative?
Based on the recent meetup or workshop it held with bloggers, I am sure, IPS may find comments here useful for their work.
Keep up the good work.
GABRIEL @60 on June 17th, 2009 12.28 pm
Quote “Hi Benedict. Yours is the voice of sanity and reason.”
- Are you saying others voice are all nonsense??? You are all the same (you know same as what group of people I am referring to). Commoners, average people, peasants voice are all just noise to you. Spare a thought!
@71,
Relax, he said benedict is the voice of sanity and reason but that did not impy that the rest are not unlike LDS….
72) LOL on June 17th, 2009 5.46 pm
What does ‘Singaporeans like to complain” mean?
What does ‘singaporeans are mollycoddled’ mean?
All singaporeans?
Is the speaker the singaporean?
Based on what credible scientific evidence ? Exactly how many singaporeans ? All? 10%? 1 %? 99.4928%?
Is is a sweeping statement?
I can only wonder.
Lionel de Souza the PAP mongrel should just stick to the Straits Times forum, or the young PAP forum. Looks like he isn’t politically mature enough to take online comments and forum where our leaders are insulted frequently (like Ah Loong, Wong Cunt Sing and Lau Lee). There is also a lot of racist comments on blogs and forums and they are used to vent anger and stress instead of creating racial disharmony or unrest.
Lionel de Souza, you’re not worth my time. I’ve got better things to do like digging snort out of my nose.
i personally felt impressed at TOC’s reply.
i hope i’m one of the many who did.
LDS can be even more impressive and convincing IF he can debate ‘live’ with the Alternative Nation.
As I admire his linguistic bombastication, I like to seek his comments on the TH news reported by international community of news media of 1st world standard. Digressed a bit , but we must not waste the opportunity to ask such talents, especially from YPAP, so honest people.
Whoa! Quite a powerful reply, I must say. And not an unjustified one. Certainly, one can feel Mr De Souza’s antagonism against such online websites in his letter.
But since we are on this comment moderation issue, I wonder if TOC can have a feature which allows users to report offensive comments in an easier fashion.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the current method is via email, and that can be slow and cumbersome. Perhaps the comments can feature a “Report” button, in which if, say, more than 5 people report on a particular comment, it will appear on the moderator’s panel.
Perhaps this can be taken into consideration when (or if) TOC moves to a newer interface (side question: any rough estimates when this will happen?).
Hi Jackson,
your comments are noted. Yes I agree it will be good to have an easier way to report comments.
Regarding the timeline, we are aiming at this year for sure. Will update you guys again on the progress.
Hi Jackson,
We’re currently considering something like a flagging mechanism, used by Facebook and Youtube. However, as the debate develops, we will have to further clarify what the TOC community believes should be moderated. As shown in the numerous comments, there are many different thresholds of tolerance.
Ideally, we can come to some community consensus, and moderation policy will reflect the will of our readers/commentors.
Stay tuned =)
Zheng Xi
To all:
Straits Times and Today co-publish letters quite a lot. After all, SPH owns 40% of MediaCorp!!
Hi TOC,
My suggestion to talk about future Bridge which PM Najib of Malaysia propose.
There alot of things to suggest and discuss.
For the benefit of both country.
who is this guy and why should I care? In the end of the day his opnions are just another flutter of air.
Can anyone post the link to TOC’s reply? I see at least two post of ‘Read it here’, but there is no link?
sorry…didn’t see that the letter was on top.
Now that I think about it, this guy may be the single biggest troll in Singapore’s internet sphere and he does it all without even going online. Quite a feat actually. haha.
85) Mr. E on June 18th, 2009 12.57 pm
“who is this guy and why should I care? In the end of the day his opnions are just another flutter of air.”
You are right. He is just 1 person with his 1 opinion.
We are the rest.
But the difference is his message could have an effect on the brains of the young who may not yet have analytically matured mind. His view is published but Alternative view is not published in tandem on the same page side by side.
You know, many regard the news highly as evidenced by their paying and paying for the news every single day since the day they could afford. Many may be too busy to analyse the news and take in what is published as the only view. I hope I am wrong. This is the risk i am concerned with.
Anything in this world can have the pros and cons, the good and bad aspects. We need Both of these views published always, as long as relevant or they exist.
To be honest, I am not impressed by his article at all.
I mean his article is published and comments possible but alternative view article was not published together with his article on the same topic.
Day after day I am disappointed and puzzled why are we paying tens of thousands of dollars per month for MPs who are out to make a name for themselves and trying to impress their masters.
There are so many needs in the communities and many can find time to write useless and self-opinionated letters and spoke for themselves. Why don’t they spend more time helping those who are really in needs.
PAY THEM FOR WHAT?
I really have no hope for these new generation of PAP MPs.
To Lionel De Souza
“I have no quarrel with these as most of the posts are nonsensical, crude and not worth reading. However, I came across 8 posts which to my mind have the tendency to espouse religious disharmony. These irresponsible and insensitive bloggers may, whether consciously or unconsciously by their comments (posts) sowed seeds that may inevitably promote religious disharmony or feelings of enmity between different religious groups.”
You have the cheek to spout “I have no quarrel with..” – are these posts addressed to you? Who is quarreling with you?
And you have the cheek to pass judgement on exchanges between other people. You have the cheek to think you are savvy and sensible, by saying ” most of the posts are nonsensical, crude and not worth reading. ” Who invited you to read them, in the first place? If you wish to read uninvited, please be constructive.
In your mind there are 8 posts that have the tendency.. Please specify these posts by doing a post here yourself using your real name. [Lionel De Souza].
Religious debates have been held in many other countries between atheists/agnostics [and other non-believers] against theists and they have been documented for review by the public. Such debates have been conducted in a civil and/or friendly atmosphere and I find them informative and educative.
If you think debating religious beliefs “may inevitably promote religious disharmony or feelings of enmity between different religious groups”, it is your narrow-mindedness or parochialism, presumably religiously induced, that led to such thinking.
Please remember, there are millions or billions of people out there, who may view things from a broader perspective. Do not expect others to believe that it must be A just because you say so.
I am sick and tired of all this call for moderation – as some have already known – and it is a real pity that some are also calling for self-moderation. Isn’t this an admission of guilt then? If this is so, then Lionel is spot on, isn’t he?
To hell with moderation – why can’t people be allowed to freely express themselves? Why is there a need to baby-sit? Should anyone post a stupid comment, he will surely get bashed up by the others. This alone will level things out and all these claims that Singapore will be turned topsy-turvy are nothing but an attempt to scare others from getting involved in the various discussions, and to learn things about Singapore’s social and political scenes, which he cannot get from the MSM.
Some of you act as if you are so gung-ho by giving this Lionel chap a ticking off, good. However, let’s not be taken in and over-react to his letter by self-moderation and what nots? We will be playing into his hands. Let us take the necessary steps to be free and the best thing to do now is to express oneself with sincerity and honesty, even when it hurts.
Take a look at the discourse in the thread: ‘A Malay Dilemma‘. It is the best example of how credible TOC is for its dare to host such topics.
aiyoyo
why like that huh?
writing on website cannot meh?
thought see news some day back, IT to be enhance?
S’pore to invest S$30m to enhance IT infrastructure, manpower development
aiyoyo
I just wonder our friend still got time to visit this web site and see for himself how we responed to him. Maybe he dare not even to respone to us. Nobody will able to stop anyone to view thier opinion in the web as all of us can see what is happening in Iran. People’s voice is the power. We had been too quiet for too long. Time to speak up, not shut up. Cheers to TOC.
Hi Gemami,
The rationale for community moderation is this: The best defences of our liberties is the responsible exercise of free speech.
As freely as we want to speak, none of us has a license to shout fire in a crowded cinema (unless there really is a fire).
The question is how can we best strike the balance to facilitate both free and lawful speech.
If people decide to defame others or breach the sedition act on TOC, we won’t let them. Because these are laws we have to live with, or we will get shut down. These are instances where if we don’t moderate, the whole community loses out.
At the same time, getting a complaint about comments does not mean we will automatically take them off, unless they actually are in breach of our moderation policy, or in breach of the law.
At the same time, everyone commenting on TOC can do their part by keeping up a high level of debate and discussion with a minimum of invective. That way we will ideally never have to moderate =)
Just think for a moment. If you read the 1st page of a story book and find that it sucks, do you continue to read to the end?
What’s more, do you pick out the particulary bad parts, note them down, then count how many bad parts are in the story book?
You will, if you are a book reviewer.
Lionel De Souza claims that most of the comments are nonsensical, yet he spent time reading all 80+ comments, and picked out 8 especially “dangerous” posts (without mentioning which).
Are all ex-police officers that queer, to read things they consider nonsense so diligently?
Is he a reviewer? If so, who is he reviewing for?
I read he has been commended for his service in the police force. Does he miss the “Well done, Lionel.” kind of commendations he got when in the force so badly that he has to scrutinise the “criminal” blogosphere and report any mischief to his former masters, in the hope of hearing those praises again?
Anyway, I am of the same mind as the comment posted here:
http://sturmdesjahrhunderts.wordpress.com/2009/06/16/2-lionel-de-souza/