Beyond lip service, govt does not care about these issues. These issues are not new and will continue to linger.

Unsatisfied citizens (like the writer) can go overseas to work, get out of sg, live (and die) there. The fact is: you (the citizen) matter very little. govt has the power to import foreign labour from regional countries as happy substitutes to mitigate the outflow.

At the macro level, statistics are used to illustrate GDP growth, low unemployment rate, assistance for Poor segment. Contrastingly, on the grd level, if you ask citizens if they feel happy … what will the response be?

Is this sustainable? Eventually, there will come a tipping point, and with it – consequences. I hope that day comes soon.

the saying goes like this….’singapore is not meant for siingaporean’

i am damn tired of what GTT saying all these years. my brother and family have been working in China for years now so as my brother in law. and i can sense that the younger generation of our family is gearing towards oversea to work as well once they finished their study.

i am looking out for that too.

In this time and age of the flat world!

Still talk about loyalty! Loyalty is a very cheap commodities nowsaday!

Why can’t its citizen migrate while foreigners can immigrate as long as outflow-inflow is not large!

Stayers or Quitters concept is a thing of the past! We Citizen of Singapore should be a Golbal Citizen! Work and Stay anywhere of the world!

Congrats Gilbert that you have found a more satisfying work and life abroad.

Although you said work and life is better abroad, why you work and stay in China for only 1 year? Why don’t you prolong it? And now Australia for 4 years. What next?

Hi Moving around,

Its a contract teaching job and I have to return home after that. I went there alone without my family.

Working in China opened my eyes as there is the cultural and mental shift. I urge all SIngaporeans to work abroad for a season as it will stretch your thinking pattern. I feel that Singaporeans,after many years of working in a robotic environment, fail to think for themselves nor are very creative in their thinking pattern. Maybe our govt has being too well a job at thinking for us. We simply need to follow and vote for them.

I am happy now in Sydney with my family. There is a freedom here unlike that in Singapore. Of course, no country is perfect but we all have choices here for what we desire for our family.

Gilbert, many singaporeans never work overseas. They would not understand you i am afraid. They are brought up to work in a stressful environment. Look at their faces. look at their behaviors. Look at them.

ST does not have sufficient guts to print Gilbert’s letter….only put it online.

If you read ST Forum Online, you will notice that ST deliberately changed the entire meaning of one sentence of Gilbert’s letter:

ST posted it as
“I realise that life will be very difficult for someone who is over 40 and unskilled”

whereas Gilbert said he was not “very skilled”. Obviously ST wants to project a mistaken image that Gilbert has “skills” equivalent to a construction worker!!

There are plenty of locals migrated or working in other countries, the figure released is 180000 n they are in many countries. The govt’s intention is gd, to encourage the locals to come back to work but how many of those heeded the advice come back? Those who come back, will they last in this country?

Singapore is a city state. We have no natural resources, operating in a global economy that’s fuled by super greed. What can we expect except to run faster and faster to stay in the same position.

I’ve told my kids from as young as they can understand that they need to get the fundamentals right from day one. Only then can they find happiness in life, because that’s what really matters.

I now spend my time helping them put the key pieces in place. Eventually whether they stay or they leave, they will choose with a well laid plan.

Search hard and you’ll see the answers staring back at you. Don’t be blinded by group think. Dare to be different!

“The govt’s intention is gd, to encourage the locals to come back to work”

Who will ever want to come back to Singapore to be treated like slave and digit when they are treated with dignity and respect as human overboard ? If I ever want to come back, I come back as foreign talent not as Singaporean.

Daniel

Ya i know.

I told my daughter to finish up her education here and chose her path as she wishes.

Many people I know back home lament that they labour like slaves only to enrich thsoe who are their bosses. They are merely treated like digits.

Worse still, when you are not too well educated or younger, you get a hard time at home. Self esteem also gets hit when you are retrenched and re hiring is tougher now.

There are simply too many positives to left tthe country than the negatives here. Sad but true…

All they do is to keep their own jobs….PAP that is….

My friends….a hugh number of them have had enough of Singapore…..no hope….they said….and all are residing in different continents now….

The govt does not have a serious plan about Singapore & Singaporeans…besides making sure they have jobs….and lately even that is getting worst…..

Just a matter of time……

Our forefathers made the sacrifices and toiled for them only to have their descendents treated less favourably than FTs. There will be retributions.

“The govt does not have a serious plan about Singapore & Singaporeans”
But I’m sure the gov does have serious plan on themselves, that is to continue to entrench power and wealth while exploiting and milking the citizens.

I wonder what will happen to Singapore’s population when most Singaporeans, in their 40s start to pack their bags and move their families oversea.

“I wonder what will happen to Singapore’s population when most Singaporeans”
Definitely decline but the PAP will be very happy because the remaining foreigners will not question the government. In any oppressive regime and monarchy, the act of questioning is act of threatening because it seek to expose rather than to conceal closet skeleton and truth.

I think the Govt have to be weary of FTs. They are not socialised like locals and will not be as compliant. Their roots are also not deep. They are the ones who dare to change and will initiate change when things are not in their favour.

Remember, not strings attached and very easy to snap.

Good luck to them. They will get exactly what they sow.

The last 50 years there is no change , if you know what i mean.
So, continuing with these locals, i wonder…..
With new citizens?

hahahaha maybe that is the only …..

Maybe foreign talent turn citizen turn minister or Prime Minister . Why not?

Or maybe 1% local elite control 80% FT turn PR/citizen and 19% local. Why not?

At the rate things are going anything can happen in the future.

Hi Gilbert,

Also thought of migrating… Would appreciate if you could some of my questions:
1) Is it true that the annual income (after tax) in Australia will be lower than Singapore?

2) If the income is lower, how can we having enough savings to retire in Singapore? What is the living expenses in Australia like?

3) For primary school children, how can they continue learning Chinese, just in case they need to come back to Singapore for Secondary Education?

All the best.

The governtmen’s concern is the ECONOMY, not the people…

So this is basically a Sweat House.

20) Curious

Taxes is much higher here – the minimal tax bracket is around 18% but there is the minimum wage rate of around $500 a week. A blue collared worker eg cleaner is paid $500 a week here.

Maximum tax deduction is close to 50% if you earn around $10,000 a month or more. However, you take back from the govt in terms of free education for your kids, social welfare for health, retirement and others.

Some schools have Chinese as second langauge but most study French, German or Italian. My daughter studies German in her school.

PR holders have free education for their children and they only pay 30% of varsity tuition fees. This can also be taken in the form of a state loan whereby you can pay back slowy once you work.

Australia is curbing migration now as the country also has a lot of unemployment.

Readers can still apply through the embassy website using the skilled-based point system. If you are a hairdresser, plumber, cook or electrician you gain automatic entry as these skills are in demand here.

Alternatively, you can first study in one of their unis here and after you have graduate apply for PR later. Many have use this route and it works for them.

Good luck!

Many things are against the older workers. Take for instance the implementation of the minimum CPF sum. Before the government could ensure all older workers are employed again by law they already hold back your minimum sum for them to invest in losing venture like meryll lynn, citigroup etc…. that is our old age money. It is only right for younger singaporean to turn their backs to PAP and head for oversea if you want a good life out of your life. PAP sucks.

My wife describes Singapore much like a hamster cage; there might be a few more toys but the cage is still the same size. To add to the woes, there are adding to the population aggressively. Even lemmings will migrate when the population crosses a threshold. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemming :-)

We are happily settled outside Singapore and cannot complain. I am appreciative of what Singapore has contributed to us tho’ but I cannot agree with the current government’s philosophy.

I read Mr. Goh’s speech recently spelling out his concerns about ‘brains’ not remaining in Singapore after their graduation. I couldn’t agree with Mr. Goh’s views. It is a ‘utilitarian’ one – suck your brains and then when you are old, you’re on your own (pretty much). It is a materialistic, money-based society and that can be very, very cruel.

Unless you’re right ‘up there’, life is not going to be easy.

In the words of the late JBJ, for a start, there is a need for a more compassionate society ….

@Gilbert Goh,

No comments about you moving to Australia as I do think its a good choice, except for the taxes, but I do believe your China stay is pretty much under coloured lenses. As an expat, you had it better in China as compared to the average Chinese whose unfortunate country have next to zero labour laws.

There isn’t such a thing called work-life-balance in most Chinese companies, and even if you have it, its like Expats in Singapore saying Singapore is the perfect place because I have money (which you have when you’re a expat in China), you have housing (which probably you do), you have memberships and you have lifestyle, not to mention work-life-balance.

These are things which the average PRCs lack, which is propelling many to leave the country in droves.

Hi Gilbert,

I understand that u staying in Australia. I like to know how many of ur

frens or colleuages in NS have also left to other countries?

Hi 25) inix

I do agree with you that I have a better lifestyle in China as an expat. If i am single, i will hang in China but at last it is a family decision here.

What I earn a month there is equal to what a worker earns for a year! I have all the trappings of a highly-paid expat there.

However, my family is in Australia and overall I think the country still has much to offer though the taxes are a real handicap.

Hi 26) Will4

I cant really pinpoint how many have left the country from my NS/school days as I did not really keep in touch with them alot.

Nevertheless, I can count at least 15 families that I know from my church that have left the country in the past decade and mostly to Australia. I have sent them off at the airport and sadly or happily none has returned so far.

I have been around the world.
I have found many better places to live in in terms of environment and lifestyle.
Many european countries, australia and even NZ if you don’t mind the extra relax pace there as well as the extra nice scenery and nature there.

So, i mean there ARE Many places to migrate to. But many singaproeans do not have the right MENTALITY suitable for migration. They are too attached to the stressful lifestyle. They fear being away from their laksa. Many are stuck here as they do not speak england and do not have qualification required.

Gilbert,

As a local urself, do u foresee the no of locals migrating to other countries will increase as time passed by? I have a feeling that 180000 locals in other countries are tip of the iceberg.

I am always in support of people who chose to emigrate or became a PR of another country. Over the last couple of years with mounting foreigners taking a huge piece of our cake and leaving crumbs in the employment market, Singapore is really not an ideal place to stay and earn a livings. This is taking into accounts the miserable depressed wages, high cost of livings, expensive medical care with long waiting time, uncompassionate govt, crammed living space, high materialism mentality (with malls abound), scholarship defaulted to the rich and the poor needs to fight hard for it, sucking up to foreigners and treating local like 2nd class citizens, local media brain washing with bias reports, too much rhetorics from majors and leaders with no solution to citizen problems…..and the list goes on.

Since the world is the oyster for PMETs, why must we still grab to a little red bean with no prospect of it sprouting to help Singaporean who are down and out? If this govt can’t do much to rid simple obstacles faced by Singaporeans, only workers like us can help ourselves – that is, to opt to get out and seek opportunity elsewhere and never look back to this country who treated local like 2nd class people. Personally, I enjoy sking, boatings, fishing, hiking, nature watching without much of restriction and commercialisation elsewhere from Singapore and I believe I can age gracefully from there..

Singapore suvivial depends on loyalty of its people and not the influx of Foreigners. In this respect, we failed quite miserably as time goes by until alternative party change the course for us and make it right again.

30) David on July 1st, 2009 11.23 am

You really speak my hearts out too and your words echo my deepest feelings and sentiments. I am starting to lose my nationalism towards my own country due to a sudden influx of foreigners to this heartland. 2 and 1/2 years of national service and the pledge to protect my nation and family seems more and more distant. I’am feeling more like a minority in my own country now, without any special privileges being a born bred Singaporean. It’s more like fighting for survival with the foreigners. I believe increasing number of Singaporeans are sharing my feelings as we are rapidly losing our common identity …..

Homeless, david ….

I think most of us echo the same sentiments.

The problem is — we talk about it amongst ourselves on blogs like these. Question is — is the govt doing anything? do they care?

you and i know the answer to that

Hi Gilbert,

Like yourself, I got a PR and am currently working in Perth. The decision to leave Spore was not a light one but considered carefully to see what furure Spore holds for me and my family.

I was restructured in1999 and had a very difficult time trying to make ends meet. Being 40 made it even harder. My view of the goverment is that it DOES NOT care about the citizens regardles of all the bullshit publicity and propaganda dished out in the MSM. All they do is protect their yes-man in the civil service and GLC mgmt levels.

Fortunately, due to my work experience and qualification, I received a golden opportunity to try out in Australia. I am now working 60% pace of my work life in Spore and having a balance life style for myself and family. To migrate will requrie adjustment and changing our mindset but I think these changes are fair and reasonable. As I read about things happening in Spore eg GIC, miniter pay, cost of living increase, Mas Selamat etc, I am appalled by the lack of accountability and the arrogance of the PAP government. They lined their pockets (abeit legally), destroy any semblance of civility and transparency, inflict hardship on the citizens and still take a ‘High horse position in criticising the population.

I will rejoice when the Old man dies. It will herald a new age of change and hopefully growth for the country.

[...] Discourse – TOC: Migrating Singaporeans – help improve employment opportunities first – Readings From A Political Duo-ble: What does the TI survey on Corruption tell us about Singapore? [...]

33) Sheng

I am glad that you wrote about yr migrate experience. I thought that I am the only one migrated! Just kidding.

What you said is true as I met many unhappy Singaporeans back home. Many looked at me in envy as they have to “suffer” back home.

I urge all Singaporeans to look at the bright side of things and learn to plan for yourself and family. We have plan for thsi move for the past 7-8 years and it is not easy.

There is adjustment to food, weather, culture, language, TV, new friends and church setting. Everything is like brand new and starting all over again.

The first 6 months is the most stressful part as one needs time to adjust to a new environment. There is also the issue of employment.

Many go jobless for close to a year before getting a job. Like myself, I am still currently unemployed here. Fortunately, my wife is working.

Before one takes the plunge to migrate and admire those who have left for greener pastures, one should be prepared also for changes and most importantly have some savings in the account to prepare for a period of unemployment when you reach the country of your love.

Migration forms my plan, it is sometime later, I will will leave. You ask why?

1. Citizens dont have much previleges, PRs are not much difference from us.
2. Work round the clock – having the kiasu and kiasi mentalities, many of us are forced to work round the clock, in which the employers or managers want to multi-task and maximise resource.
3. Our leaders are only focused on economical growth and making up losses – investments or babies by importing foreigners or raising cost of living.

Perhaps Singapore is too small and does not have much choice but the top has made it too hard for average citizens, and they appeared marginalised.

I think in 10 or 15 years time, S’pore will have a severe shortage of active NSmen. Imagine more and more S’poreans migrating to places like Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia, Thailand, etc. because they could not stand the overcrowding, poor job prospects (especially if you are over 40), very little help from the govt, strained police force (I still don’t understand why assault is not a seizable offense, but an imagined threat against a PAP MP would land one in jail !!!), etc.

Our super-rich rulers would then have to employ more gurhkas to protect their multi-million dollar good class bungalows!!

The govt loves to use the excuse that foreigners are needed in this or that jobs because S’poreans shun these positions. NS is the role every male S’poreans shun, so why doesn’t the govt get foreign “talents” to fill that role????

Talk is cheap, even cheaper coming out from PAP mouth, so cheap that it become unreal and unsincere and looks fake.

How many times we heard about government helping low income family and less fortunate singaporean? But have you seen lesser Ah Gong Ah Ma selling tissue paper in hawker centre?

It appears to me ST is doing a very good job on the stage, but the backend crew just fuc care about helping Singaporean. So fake, so ill to even read the entire article on ST.

11) Gilbert Goh on June 30th, 2009 7.14 pm Daniel

[There are simply too many positives to left tthe country than the negatives here. Sad but true…]

Well said, Gilbert!

I feel like you are my soul mate – our assessments are the same.

But there are 2 ways about it:

1. Leave for better pasture.
2. Change it.

Change is always and definitely possible.
A matter of time.

The last semi Century has proven that existing alternative mindset people have failed to change it.

I believe we can only rely on the new immigrants for change to come given the fact that in the last semi century, none of the alternative nation is able to bring about 1 change. not even 1 change.

while i am hoping the new immigrants can beef up our alternative nation talent pool, i am not feel proud saying so.

yup, the best bet for change will be from the new immigrants.
This means, change can be expected in 20 to 50 years.
Thats not bad considering the time already spent waiting for it.

Lets speed it up! I have given up hope relying on existing batch.

Hi Gilbert,

Can you share about how to apply for PR/citizenship in Australia?

I also heard about the dual citizenship? Would it be possible for Singaporean to hold Aussie citizenship without dropping our Pink IC?

Personally I love to be here as it is where we were born. But as you said, I too find there are too many things goes wrong.

I am still young (<30) and but the sharing by your guys worrying. I too dont know what would happen to me and my family when I and my wife grow older. Would we be out of job, yet still have a family to support etc.

Mike, u can search for Australian immigration seminar n understand ur concern about the future of this country. I realized the reason given by my local fren not to change to a local citizenship. It seemed not only the A level student are leaving but also the poly graduates are leaving. If u noticed it, there seemed to b many moves by some govt leaders to encourage the locals to come back to stay. The problem of brain drain could b serious or else the govt will not be trying to intervene in this matter.

Wow, even though Aussie tax is high, so many singaporeans dropped the pink ic for aussie ic. must be great there! I heard their salaries also higher.

Auslands’s racial problem can be mitigated by having more asians migrate there. One by one, asians can bring in their relatives there and form a little singapore. I think already there are singaproeans living in a small community in ausland i suspect.

Give us the Wisdom to change what we can and accept what we cannot!

Life is Short! We Singaporean work so hard just to pay the HDB, ERP, GST!!!

Can’t imagine one can to die in Singapore! It is Very Expensive! Go Old fork also $2000 plus. Let do something before too late!

To me , being a Singaporean and serve NS already has lost it meaning!
Let all of us take Risk out there! We never go never know!
Believe will be more than 180,000 more out there!

44) Sulaiman KM Oli Mohd on July 1st, 2009 3.56 pm
”Auslands’s racial problem can be mitigated by having more asians migrate there”.

I think you mean that when asians are less in number, the society can have more discrimination right? I think so too. If Australia has more asians and asian new immigrants, the racial fabric there could change and lower the level of discrimination.

last time less certain race holding certain high post. if more of these hold high post?
last time less women ceo. now more.

change is always possible except when people consciously hold a mentality that change is not possible. a self-realised prophecy.

41) Mike

Can you see my post on no. 22? It will roughly answer your question. It is good also to apply young as you have more points under their visa assessment ssytem.

Regarding dual citizenship, frankly I am unsure as some people here say they have two passports whereas others have given up the Singaporean one so that they can withdraw their CPF money.

Sorry I cant help you with this question.

I find it quite laughable that in Spore Day in England, SAF also involved in sending their servicemen to show their latest equipment n at the same time explain the NS policy to those pre-enlistees n their parents.

we do have a choice :

Although we cannot Choose which Country to be Born in,
We can , however, Choose which Country to Migrate to.

We have a choice indeed.

Another Choice:

Change it to suit us.

There is a huge number of poly graduate coming to aussie study. Its true. It used to be poly graduates and A’level holder who can’t get into local uni.

Its getting worse. My gf’s cousin whom got 4 As also came over to get her degree. She could have easily gotten into any course in NTU or NUS. I think its the living experience oversea that makes pple wanna move out of sg.

From my surrounding, 10 of my sg friends studied here, 4-5 never went back. The pay is good, tax is high here. But not many know that there are even more tax rebates you can imagine possible here.

The working experience here is much relaxing compared to sg. My friend in sg works 7 to 7, I only work 8 to 5 each day (plus 1 day off every fortnight).

But there is something that pple doesn’t know. non-aussie will take double/thriple the time and effort to reach where an aussie can reach in 6 to 7 years. I think it works the other way round in sg as what my friends revealed.

Therefore, I am inclined to believe that singaporeans aren’t given more chance than non-singaporeans.

If you think australia can let you retire gracefully, I hope you can open your eyes when you come over here. The reason that you see their old can do that is because they are being supported by the youngs pple (seriously, in my opinion non-aussies). And these incentives are taken away bit by bit, year by year.

There is a major push to take out workers unions everywhere, but just lucky that Rudd gov reinstate Union power as a campaign freebie that made it possible for unions to survive.

In the future, life in australia might not be as bright as what you think it would be. From what I can observe asia will lead the economy in the future, so do let your children stay attached to asian culture and languages if you come over here.

Plan, save and invest are your best bet. Don’t depend on any gov, any country for safe heaven.

The World Biggest Economy and innovation is still in America. Even China and Indian Economy combined still less than $14 trillion US economy.

Though China Indian are going at exponential rate but American is still the Magnet of the World.
Capable People will go there!

Australia is a commodities base economy and when Asian growing, they will grow,

Singapore economy are losing as compare to the more innovative Korea and Taiwan though its per capital is high but middle class are suffering. Birth rate are declining and couple with aging populations, the worst is yet to be in 20 yrs time.

Think of the future! Do you want to die here!

Agree with #51.

Though from economic figures, it seems that china and asia is where grow may be in the near future, the real engine of growth COMES from USA, still and will be so for a long time to come.

Asia may still enjoy growth due to LOWER COST.

Without USA, the world will progress slower if not cannot progress.

USA was mismanaged. They are suffering for it. Obama has landed himself a tough job. But he did not caused the problems. Greedy & Evil people caused it.

China is basically growing due to its low cost. It has factories but where does the technologies come from? Basically the west lah. To be fair, china also can innovate. But the fact remains, who’s the daddy?

Growth is not Forever. Look at Japan. Guess which Asian country will get or is suffering the same fate now?

;)

Does anyone know how many trained (after 2 years) NS men have migrated over the years.?
I beleived the numbers could be quite large—that is why this govt will never reveal it..Could be embarrasing.
Such a waste of tax payers money—-and letting these young men contribute to other country economy— such silly policies.
To make matters worse we import others rejects –but hey–not NS trained.

50) Passerby

Looking at it from another perspective, would Singaporeans be in a foreign land be viewed the way many here view FTs in SG?.

Smart Singaporeans should migrate. This country does not hold any future for them. So what’s left for Singaporeans who are stuck here? They deserve their plight for not voting PAP out. There is a price for change but there is also a price for inertia. Since 66% of the population has voted for inertia, they deserve their plight and PAP’s mistreatment. Smart Singaporeans who can’t effect change for this country can at least effect change on their personal lives. We should congratulate them, and not be bitter about their success in lives.

Hi Mike #41,

Singaporeans cannot hold dual citizenships. Refer to Article 129 of the Singapore Constitution for more information.

Officially, Singaporeans cannot hold dual citizenship. Unofficially …. and I know of a few unofficial cases …. Singapore is a pragmatic nation ….. not a principled one …. Think …. what it means re your CPF if you’re dual …. cannot withdraw …..

Ya i also know of some who have dual citizenships.

Maybe our home country is trying not to be too strict here in the hope that people will come back home.

Once he gives up his citizenship you lose that person.

I guess the key reason why people give up their citizzenship is to cash out their CPF money. Some have more than half a million dollars in their account (husband and wife).

Australia News

LOWLY paid workers such as security guards and cleaners will be the big winners under Labor’s new Fair Work laws, unions say.

The introduction of laws to help low-income workers bargain and laws that required parties to negotiate in “good faith” were a marked shift from WorkChoices, Ms Tarrant said.

Other significant changes include enhanced unfair dismissal rights and a more significant role for the industrial umpire to settle disputes. Standards covering penalty rates and hours of work will start from January.

Fair Work Australia will replace several bodies including the Australian Industrial Relations Commission and the Workplace Ombudsman.

Gilbert, others:

Ever tot PAP wants FTs because their thinking is like

Bertolt Brecht’s East German Communists:

“Would it not be easier

In that case for the government

To dissolve the people

And elect another”

(The Solution)

Gilbert, I couldn’t agree more with you. Improving the employablility & salaries of those workers that are 40 yrs & above will help this country stay afloat especially with an aging population. It seems that the govt solution to this problem is to hire young foreigners to take over our own population. I cannot imagine what will happen when another recession strike the global economy.

Talk about stress. There is this girl that board the same bus as me to school this morning & she look angry & pissed even to the extent of pushing me to get pass to get a seat. Being a student is already so stressed nowadays. I think a lot of our graduates may choose to opt for overseas job when they finished their studies.

In anticipation of a horrible ending here, it is indeed wise to seek a good beginning elsewhere.

It is very fair to say that Singaporeans are being let down by their very own country as evidenced in the remarks made at all socio-political blogs. In a way, it is double blow to most born in this tiny resourceless land added by the generous offerings made by the leaders to foreigners. So Singaporeans are squeezed by their leaders and the foreigners the leaders invited and invite to invade the tiny space that we have.

Make your way or prepare to make your way out if one can afford to.

Good Luck !

patriot

31) Homeless on July 1st, 2009 11.44 am

30) David on July 1st, 2009 11.23 am

You really speak my hearts out too and your words echo my deepest feelings and sentiments. I am starting to lose my nationalism towards my own country due to a sudden influx of foreigners to this heartland. 2 and 1/2 years of national service and the pledge to protect my nation and family seems more and more distant. I’am feeling more like a minority in my own country now, without any special privileges being a born bred Singaporean. It’s more like fighting for survival with the foreigners. I believe increasing number of Singaporeans are sharing my feelings as we are rapidly losing our common identity …..

Hi ..my sentiment alike. The burning question is how do one get started?

Gilbert is Wise to leave this time unless you got a net asset of 1 millions before 40 yrs old cause it is very though to be in Singapore!

PAP will force you to work way pass 60 years old!

See about 20yrs time 2030 what will happen! One fifth of Population over 60yrs and PRC no longer willings to come here to support Old people and LKY no longer around to guide Singapore. Economy will be depressed!

Do you want till 2030 to leave Singapore and by the time no body want you!

64) Homeless

Look on the bright side of things as truthfully not everyone will get the chance to migrate.

Do not depend on the govt or anyone for you are the only person that will determine your own destiny.

Spend within your means and learn to be contented.

Live simply and cherish the finer things in life like spending time with your loved ones and friends.

Look out for opportunity and seize it when it comes – sometimes in our hesitancy the opportunity will slip away.

Lastly, do not complaint here or there as we are fond of but be responsible for our own act. We determine our own future regardless.

Gilbert is Right we shouldn’t complain as it made us feel worst !

But I urge Singaporean not to be like a Frog in a Well. By the time the water is boiling, the frog already too late to escape!

Always had the foresight to see far 20 yrs down the road and all those PAP loyalty talk is just crap! Who don’t take care of their backside and future?

“Gilbert is Right we shouldn’t complain as it made us feel worst !”

So can we walk to talk by acting on it (like having street protests) smilar to those in HK, THA, KL, IND instead of only talk the talk (complaining). No wonder we need FTs who apparently will do much different things in their own countries.

Of course not those kind of protests only confined to HLG where effectively it is like dancing with balloons and whistles within a circle drawn by yourself.

No ways Singaporean can protest when LKY is alive!

He will not tolerate that and send in the tanks like Deng Xiao Peng did! No matter how many Degreee or Talents you have.

That is Life in Singapore! Things we can’t change let it be and follow Gilbert footstep to a better place before we go heaven!

Time is not on our Side for Singaporean Anymore! Wake up your Idea!

“That is Life in Singapore! Things we can’t change let it be and follow Gilbert footstep to a better place before we go heaven!

Time is not on our Side for Singaporean Anymore! Wake up your Idea!”

Things can change lah but the work may be long and arduous lah. singapore does not have the right characterics for tanks to roll in just like in CHI – tankees may forget and train the turret the other way lah – some of the lesser ranked persons are even more intelligent than those sqare-head at the top.

Singapore is still a Chinese Society! Never Offend your Boss or Rulers! They will kill you! By force or Bankruptcy and instill fear in your heart!

Your Life means nothing to PAP, you are just a digit in their statistics! Long term is to build 6 millions to substained the economy by hook or crook!

Change will only within PAP and Singaporeans pls sit down and shut up! Talk somemore will cut your tongue! Thanks for the America Military who invent the internet so Singapoean can talk!

So let change for a better place!

singaporeans who cannot change things here may not be able to change things elsewhere also. escape no use.

“Singapore is still a Chinese Society! Never Offend your Boss or Rulers! They will kill you! By force or Bankruptcy and instill fear in your heart!”

aiyoh, that is what I am afraid of and that is why society (the whole nation in general) with such strong boss or rulers tend to be regressive as a whole in the end – simply because those favoured ones who may not be the most worthy ones are protected and are made to look good over many other more deserving ones by virtue of knuckles rather than words.

“Talk somemore will cut your tongue!”

Yes, that is the competence of last resort for some if they cannot win out in any arguments.

“Thanks for the America Military who invent the internet so Singapoean can talk!”

while we may be criticising the ang mohs for some other shortcomings, we are still using handphone, internet, television, airplane, submarines, etc, etc, etc, etc. all mostly invented by the ang mohs. talking about asian value, kids here talk about mcdonalds, kentucky fried chicken, toy r us, etc, etc, etc.

While our tongues may be cut, they are leaving their tails too long in the open.

Singaporean should be able to change and adapt to all enivroment like Charles Darwin Said! The most adaptable creatures will be the stronger but sadly compare to collective society like Taiwan, Korea or Japan, we are way out even we are strong in English Language!

It is the Singaporean attitude of Ka Su, Ka Sei, Ka PAP that we become who we are and dare not question the boss like LKY! Even the boss is wrong we said is right like the Emperor New Clothes. Which employee dare to made decision!

Singaporean should be the most Global Citizen in the World as compare to American and be able to work in the world. Yet we are long way to go in this Scare to Die Society!

Unless top and bottom take ownership and account for their mistakes like what Temesak suppose to admit than we can improved on our shortcomes.

“It is the Singaporean attitude of Ka Su, Ka Sei, Ka PAP that we become who we are and dare not question the boss like LKY! Even the boss is wrong we said is right like the Emperor New Clothes. Which employee dare to made decision!”

That is why we need FTs to learn from them – where I have seen much younger FTs who are more expressive and very verbal (very confident even someitmes in situations where they may not be so correct) managing much older singaporeans who dare not even talk back (even in polite manner) – too submitting to higher authority.

Our country is good training ground for being very obedient and kiasi that those at the top can sometimes tell you rubbish and get away with it.

“Unless top and bottom take ownership and account for their mistakes like what Temesak suppose to admit than we can improved on our shortcomes.”

You are as good as your weakest link who ironically may be protected when he should be the very one to be let go.

Sometime I saw those expressive FTs like Filipinos during the Q&A sessions by management?
I’m afraid something will happen to they when they give sincere feedback about the company!
Think those Filipinos think Singapore is like America but bare in mind in Singapore it is still very Chinese. Feedback is just digs out the oppositions and terminated them!
I saw so much in fighting in our MNCs ! Now the MNC have gone to China for Good so all engineers are jobless! Ha Ha!

LKY once said that those who migrate are not successful here and are the second-best. The best remains. The scholars have their futures charted by the govt. He is quite right as almost all the top posts are occupied by men-in-white and their followers. Unless you are a millionaire those who are above 45 you are stuck here with the old, the poor and the foreigners on this little red dot.

“Sometime I saw those expressive FTs like Filipinos during the Q&A sessions by management?”

Even in uni where I got asked before by some FT grad here why local students do not usually voice up any opinion during open floor sessions. I was smiling in my heart.

“I’m afraid something will happen to they when they give sincere feedback about the company!”

Well, at the end of the day, the company went to China.

“Now the MNC have gone to China for Good so all engineers are jobless! Ha Ha!”

We have so many many many so called talents being very very very obedient working for other MNCs that we forget to create our own MNCs (those with good lasting brand or corporate goodwill) with all the right supporting culture (not only in terms of funding but also in intangibles like risking out-of-the-box “adventures” in the public domain) – aiyah, not those linked-here-and-there companies which have only upside but min downside and are relying on ah kong money.

“He is quite right as almost all the top posts are occupied by men-in-white and their followers.”

At least we should be glad that one of them managed to detect some missing link after two decades. As for the rest, …………..

54) KopitiamApek on July 2nd, 2009 1.49 am 50) Passerby

Looking at it from another perspective, would Singaporeans be in a foreign land be viewed the way many here view FTs in SG?.
———————————————————————————————–

No, I don’t think so cause they climb higher and faster than non-aussie. Or maybe there is but just that I don’t know haha. As for those working under non-aussie management are not too bad as their pays are supported by unions.

I think generally, they welcome migrants as they will push up house prices. Almost all my colleagues have more than 1 property.

SINGAPORE will not go down in my opinion as singaporeans are resourceful and ambitious but the rich are casting a shadow over the population, there is not much chance for the middle class to break that cycle.

Maybe thats why the gov import FT so that it can create more chances for ambitious singaporeans. Of course, some will win some will lose. But still the rich are copying, see what happened recently on news? reserving prime lot for own copy of other biz.

And the pay for middle class will never be higher than other developed countries cause we don’t have the support of resources.

I have faith in sg, just that the gov need to give more space for innovativity.

80) Passerby

Thanks for your reply

@50///If you think australia can let you retire gracefully, I hope you can open your eyes when you come over here. The reason that you see their old can do that is because they are being supported by the youngs pple (seriously, in my opinion non-aussies). And these incentives are taken away bit by bit, year by year///

Ya, Not sustainable over the long haul.

80) Passerby

///SINGAPORE will not go down in my opinion as singaporeans are resourceful and ambitious ///

Considering what we don’t have compared to our neghbours, we are doing realtively well.
I recall MM once described life as rowing a sampan upriver, A journalist asked him why is he so pessismistic. He says that is the reality of SG. When you are rowing upriver, the moment you stop rowing you go backward.
This is event worse scenario than the mice on wheels.
With our almost non existence resources, we end up working helluva a lot harder just to having a decent life, thus causing a lot of frustration among people in general.

I recall a Malaysian guy U knew who was working in SG telling me for his pay, he can live very well in SG. And he was getting a relatively lower pay for the work he did.
I though about that and concluded that he sees things from another perspective, his needs and wants are very different, as as a result he is happy. He is able to accept delayed gratification for his longer term gains. As a result he saved qute a sum, as is doing relatively well in life compared to a lot of his peers.

//// the rich are casting a shadow over the population////
I am not too sure what you meant by that.

Just spent 2 weeks in my country of birth – Singapore. My adopted home is now Downunder (15 yrs now) and recently I decided to spend a few years in China, the land of my ancestors before they left and settled all over the world.

There are so many foreign workers in Singapore and it looks like they are taking over the country! I can feel it. Singapore, in her mad rush to take in more Chinese are making the mistake of taking in every “tom, dick and harry” (to do labouring work that S’poreans don’t want to do) whereas countries like OZ and NZ are a little bit more selective. In OZ and NZ, people love to do labouring work and servants and maids are shunned upon whereas in S’pore everyone want a maid so that they feel that they are being served like a king or queen.

I am now in China and I can tell you, this huge country is a lot more easy going (and relaxed) than Singapore! Singapore is like a compressed sauna and boiling cauldron … it must be small size, overcrowding, concrete buildings and airconditioning system that add to the heat. My goodness the humid heat of Singapore is unbearable. In Shanghai here, even though it’s hot, it’s not as unbearable as Singapore.

Some facts & comparision since its pretty obvious some of you guys think that migrating down under is a walk in the park.

AU vs SG Income Taxes

Australian Income Taxes is FOC for the first 6K. Starts at 15% across $6001 and maxed out at 45% across $180K for WY09/10

AU VAT vs SG GST

AU – 10% on most stuff. Some stuff like Govt Services / Food at VAT FOC though
SG – 7% GST on all Goods and Services

AU Housing vs SG’s Housing

Wide range of areas to talk about, but if we were to talk about conventional housing (house in AU vs Apartments in SG), alongside with the same amount of distance from town to home, there isn’t any significant price difference.

In capital cities, they are often more expensive, in part due to the housing boom for the past 10 year. That put aside, homes affordability in AU is another question. Some factors to consider.

AU – Cash for Home Loans
SG – CPF for Home Loans

AU – Very high interest rates (Max 10% In FY08)
SG – HDB 2.6%, Banks hardly across 5%

For anyone who says that interest rates isn’t important, please go get a financial calculator and calculate a 300K loan on 30 year with 5% interest and HDB’s 2.6% interest and you’ll know how much you’ll pay more.

Also, the paying via HDB is also a very important factor.

AU Education vs SG Education

AU – Free Education till Uni. Pay for Books. (Less Stressful)
SG – Cheap Education till Uni. Mainly pay for Books / Misc Fees. (Very Stressful)

AU’s Uni – Residents pay 25%, approx A$25K for 3 – 4 years Course. Govt Loan Avail.
SG’s Uni – Citizens pay around S$20K for 3-4 years course. Bank Loan (managed by MOE) avail for up to 75%. Can also use Parents CPF if enough money.

Social Welfare

AU – Social Welfare to some extent
SG – NIL

Social Security (Note – Different from Welfare)

AU – SuperAnnuation – 9% Employer Contribution
SG – CPF – 20% Employee Contribution, 14.5% Employer Contribution.

Note that Super can be used for Investment only but CPF can be used for investment + housing.

Medical

AU – High Quality Free Healthcare System, complemented by Private Insurance.
SG – High quality Medical System (Expensive)

Some notes here.

AU – While AU’s Healthcare is good, there are also complains about it being slow et al. But considering that its free, nothing much to complain about. Most citizens will have some form of Medical Insurance to cover themselves for family, which costs around A$2K+ for a family of 4.

SG – SG’s healthcare can be very expensive for the uninsured. The Govt’s 3M system does mitigate the situation somehow, there there will be people who fall off the cracks..

SG’s healthcare + point would be the extremely cheap insurance. Catastrophic Medical Insurance is often under $200 PA (using medisave) and very affordable. Adding rider to these insurance means a very comprehensive insurance scheme which means one will not be required to pay a single cent for most insurance.

FYI, anyone earning around $1K a month will contribute approximately slightly under $100 to Medisave Account per month.

The major problem with the 3M + Private Insurance is cases where no hospitalisation is required. Like outpatient cancer treatment, where drugs cost over $3K and no insurance can be claimed / govt does not subsidy.

Lifestyle

AU – Pace of life slow
SG – Pace of life fast

AU – Working time pretty fixed and people don’t expect you to work as hard
SG – You want money, you work hard. Harder and harder…

AU – Cars Cheap, but a must have
SG – Cars Expensive, but not a must have

AU – Wide Open Spaces
SG – Need I say more?

AU – Expensive for out-of-country travel (by virtue of Qantas)
SG – Cheap for International Travel

AU – Childcare is HYPER expensive
SG – Maids cost Max $1K. In AU, you can’t even smell that.

Salary Structure

AU – Conventional payscale studies show that their payscale is around 20% higher then Singaporeans (Note the much higher tax)
SG – Lower payscale but lower income taxes

As a person who has looked at AU migration actively for close to 2 years (and is still looking), there are good and bad in everything. Before anyone wack SG for it being a crap place, ask yourself if AU is better. If you have a good, high paying job in AU then perhaps. But if you’re also having a good, high paying (like 5/6K job in SG, then you would be comfy here as well)

Anyway, just providing another point for reference.

@Passerby

Try retiring in Australia without working there for 20/30 years and paying off your mortgage and you must be joking. Have you even did your sums before?

Super was created because the Pension scheme cannot sustain the entire country. The Govt’s welfare is a last resort and only on subsistence. Do you really think the Aussie are going to give you A$5K a month to spend when you grow old?

After 50 yrs of Self Rule, majority of citizens already worn out and look forward to better future elsewhere!

Their depressed pay by FTs will never beat the rising HDB prices even in a recession.

If Life is just about 5C(Cash, Condo, Credit C) and Score As in A level, it is very shallow! It should be more than that! We live once and for our Dream to do greater things!

No wonder now we lose out to Taiwan, Korea, Hong Kong with no innovative products like iphone out of Singapore.

When we grow Older to Die, the Foreigner Talents would no want to support us by paying higher GST! They will earn their money and leave!

To inix

One more point to note:

AU – Min wage protection
SG – Fight with FT/ FW

@Small Time Businessman

Agreed, and I actually agree the implementation of Min Wage in SG. But the question would be likely be a underlying and sudden increase of inflation. Who wants ah?

Furthermore, if one is living on min wage anywhere, its likely they won’t be able to migrate to AU lah

To inix

maybe other cost of doing business/living should come down, eg rental, petrol tax, hdb prices etc

Inix

Thanks for your detailed comparison on living standard between Singapore and Australia.

It is not only very analytical but comparative.

As spoken before, there is no perfect country besides heaven of course.

Each country has their pluses and minuses.

I guess those Singaporeans who migrate are looking at options – ways to move on to a fresher hopefully better place to live their life.

There are several reasons why people chose to migrate:

1. Lifestyle – this to me is one of the chief reasons why people migrate. People are sick of a work place that is exploitative and unreasonable. Moreover, the pay is nothing to shout at unless you are the top brass there. Work is also demanding and perfectionist. Stress is the by product of our working system back home. They want a life and when they migrate many find that there is life after work. Of course if you earn $5-6K in SIngapore, it is unlikely that you will want to search for greener pastures.

2. Education – many parents chose to migrate as their chidlren could not cope with the stressful demanding curriculum there. Some kids exhibited psychological stress and the educational system in Australia is more relaxed and not so demanding. The emphasis is different here. Chidlren learn more to express themselves and there is no exam during primary school eyars till I think Sec 2.

3. Personal – there are also many personal reasons why people migrate. Some left because of the lack of political space. Others are unhappy with our government top-down approach. Some just want a break from the boredom of living in a country for decades.

I also realise that people who miragte are often adventurous, creative and risk taking. They often explore options to live a better qualitative life. Money may not be the chief reason why people left. To me, many lose out here due to the high taxes. Singapore is a better place to earn money if you work very hard but there is a high price to pay.

At a certain age, money doesnt appeal to many. We all need money to survive of course but it is not the chief determinant of how we live our life. We want to pursue our ideals and dreams.

I urge all Singaporeans to strive on despite the harsh environment back home. Do not complaint against the government too much and lose your reasons for living on. Do not envy us as we also have our own problem here. There is the adjustment issue and we all miss our family members and friends back home ALOT.

More importantly, live life meaningfully wherever you are. Live is too short to always wish for things to become better.

inix

Did you take into consideration tax by other names? Am referring to Levy, ERP, food court rental, etc etc.

Inix, Re Comment #85. Some Singaporean migrants can buy a house outright in Australia with their CPF money, so mortgage is not an issue. With mortgage no lonegr being a factor, life in Australia is a bed of roses. You have the option to work part time or start a small home based business. No more rat race like in Singapore. Also, families get a better deal here as the fortnightly Family Tax benefit payments offset some or all of the PAYG tax that you pay.

@Angelina

Not quite sure what you mean by Levy / Food Court Rental? On ERP, Sydney isn’t any better. Sydney’s highway tolls arnt any cheaper.

@Gilbert Goh

Agreed. There is no right and wrong. But looking at the complains about the government on the various things like ERP, high govt salary, its almost 90% about money.

Personally, I’ve got nothing to hide. Money IS an important part, so my comparisons are always money first. Lifestyle comes automatically after that

Thanks inix :-)

@Maximillan

You’re not telling the actual story. To immigrate to AU, you can’t get the Passport directly. It will take a minimum of 3 years from the day you move from SG to become the Australian PR.

To cash out your CPF, you will need to discard your Singapore Passport to get the moolah.

@Small Time Businessman

if SG remove Petrol Tax, will you take a corresponding increase in other taxes? We have extremely low income taxes, so other indirect taxes must also play a part.

Rental – Thats market forces at work eh? So do we now want the government to become socialistic? FYI, Australian rental isn’t any cheaper ah?

HDB Prices – Same old reason again. Australian houses are any cheaper? Despite the Economic Crisis, prices has only came down 10% hor. And I am monitoring both SYD and MEL very actively.

inix Re # 96. It’s actually four years now, but that fact is irrelevant. If you’ve got enuf moolah in the CPF, you just have to grin and bear it for four years after which you will live in Australia debt free. That’s the situation I am in right now, and I can tell you for a fact, the feeling is simply priceless. I am luckier though as I only had to wait two years under the old rules.

inix, Re: property prices. $550K gets you a four bed house on a 550m2 block in a nice suburb like Glen Waverley in Melbourne. Pray tell what that sort of money gets you in Singapore?

82) KopitiamApek on July 2nd, 2009 9.12 pm
“//// the rich are casting a shadow over the population////
I am not too sure what you meant by that.”

apek, it means (my interpretation) that the very very rich (those extremely filthy rich especially who are welcome with open arms & who buy properties like toys in this very very land scare country) have a tendency to inflate the prices of everything in general (as expensive property prices (subsidised housing ?) will form a major cost component over your lifetime) and thus drowning the purchasing power of those common people here.

Last when our country was not so rich, a family of 4 to 5 can sustain on the income of one breadwinner with real affordable shelter. Now a new couple will have to really consider the option of having kids with high front-end commitment of even a subsidised shelter (currently still marketed as affordable while it still invites complaints).

This is made worst by encouraging higher and higher floor development and at the same time liberal policies welcoming ‘talents’ (some leaning on fake degrees) to boost / sustain demand and turning this place like sewage compressed into a small sardine can.

In big country, development (whether housing or industrial) can always slowly expand away from the urban city area to outlying sub-urban or country side. In a country like ours, it is not too difficult to envisage how this will turn out if the above scenario continues its current course.

After 40 yrs, try get a job even you are a Manager before in Singapore!

Go fly kite! Employer just want young fresh and innovative below 35.

Sometime I see those PMETS in E2i, I really pity them some are retrenched VP, manager wtih children and no one want to employed them!

That is life, unless they pick up their own feet and be Businessman , No one can help them! Call God for Help! Help! God pls help me!
Where is God????

For me no children I still can survived on my fully pay HDB and Car and still get some savings.
If Die Die sell away my house and move to else where!

I too am fed-up with the pap policies, but Singapore is my country. I have done my share of NS + reservists.

I think we should effect a change by using our votes.. Who would think that a minority can become the president of USA? Just 30-40 years ago, the US still have racial segregation..

With a better educated population, the people would be able to think for themselves how pap policies affect their lives.. I am waiting for the next GE and its results.. Hope it will be a wake-up call to the pap that Singaporeans want changes..

83) borderless

////My goodness the humid heat of Singapore is unbearable. //////

Agree, that is one of the natural disadvantage in SG. It wears one down.

84) inix

Thanks for the sharing
Very elaborate insightful comparison

90) Gilbert Goh

//Live is too short to always wish for things to become better.//

Yes. Thisi I have learned.
In SG context,
Like buying a flat in an ulu new town and hope for facilities to be built. Some times it takes decades, and we do not have many spare decades to spent waiting.
Like hoping the existing gahmen gets kicked out and suddenly everything will be so rosy. I recall many decades ago, an elderly relative was always hoping communist China will take over SG and all will be well. I gave it some thought as to why did he wished what he wished for, I concluded that he biz was in the dumps and life was not good to him then. So being down and out, such wishful thoughts sometimes will surface, if only to give himself a ray of hope in times of hopelessness, real or perceieved.

The problems now is Jobs!

If Singaporean above 40s are not employed cause they can find jobs of decent pay like Gilbert ask for at least 2K.

How are they going to support their families to give birth to the next generation of Singaporean.

S-pass FTs with degree or diploma just $1800.

By law of economic, Lots of Singapore naturally will be displaced into the south china sea and don’t talk abt 44 years of national day!

44 – the most unlucky national day Singapore every had! Stillm got mood to celebrate!
One Nation, One People, On Singapore! Jobs Jobs Jobs! Pay and Pay! GOD Help! Help!

“Sometime I see those PMETS in E2i, I really pity them some are retrenched VP, manager wtih children and no one want to employed them!”

Never mind lah, they have upgrading programmes avaiable lah.

For retrenched VP, go for course and upgrade to senior VP / president lah.

For retrenched manager, go for course and upgrade to VP lah and make sure you apply for all the help that is being advertised to be around lah.

Don’t complain & say there is no help – plenty available. Just make the effort. Attend all the meet-the-people sessions, there are a lot of friendly and helpful people out there lah. Read the mainstream newspapers, quite a lot of positive news to psyche yourself up.

Remember it has been proven that you can easily live by with sgd351/- (any figure more than sgd350 will do these days) per month if you do not mind plain rice with black soya sauce.

“That is life, unless they pick up their own feet and be Businessman , No one can help them! Call God for Help! Help! God pls help me!
Where is God????”

If you think long enough, it may well appear right in front of you. So do not lose heart. Like i used to hear from someone else, miracle sometimes comes in different form.

I felt that there could b plenty of foreign professional gotten PR or on other scheme but mayb they refused to become citizen due to the fact that CPF is locked up n need to be taken in annuity.

“Like hoping the existing gahmen gets kicked out and suddenly everything will be so rosy.”

Things may not get rosy but at least the benefits of being up there get circulated among different people & groups – like what economists call something quite similar as ‘redistribution of income’ albeit in the form of political tenure.

FTs got no liability like family or NS and can contibute to their Boss!

They just earn what is possible and back to their country to spend! That why they can accept $1800 even they got degree.

Always expect miracle to happen but wait long long! HDB, LTA, PUB, Singtel, M1, MOE, Town Council, MRT will chase after your monthly payment!

We can go on bread and water but how about our children! We don’t eat nevermind but how about our children!

That is Life! No choice in Singapore!

109) redistribution of income

///Things may not get rosy but at least the benefits of being up there get circulated among different people & groups – like what economists call something quite similar as ‘redistribution of income’ albeit in the form of political tenure.///

that will still only benefit a minority few.

“that will still only benefit a minority few.”

Yes, you are right. However it gets spread to a wider sector or onto a different group with their own sub-groups / players instead of staying concentrated within a single group.

It is like giving 40 sweets to one class every year or the same 40 sweets go to a different class each year. Simple example just to get the message across.

Do you want to see some groups accumulating benefits to an obnoxious extent and beyond their “lifetime needs” while the rest have to fight for ‘crumb’ for immediate needs. As for the means of getting there in our context, I leave it to you.

109) redistribution of income

looking at it another way, assuming that each mimister get paid $5,000,000.00
per year and assuming there are a total of 100 of them, that will cost SG $500,000,000.00 per annum.

Using your suggested income resditribution, we now re-distribute $500,000,000.00 to the entire population of 4,000,000, it will give each one in SG
$125.00 per annum or $10.42 per month.

112) Yes, you are right

a bit confusing when you use different names while replying.

Life a Pyramid! Top of the Cream will enjoy the most !

Through History there are Class Struggle! Each Ruling Class will be displaced by another Class when the method of production change just like Taiwan.

Only in a true democracy like America, the Rulers will have to answer to people else will be displaced without violent! Obama take over Bush!

Successful Economy like Taiwan, Korea and even Indonesia until Suharto 32 rulers had all become democracy yet Singapore got long way to go!

Taiwan, Korea, Japan gov can be displaced with violent yet there economy still going still. See Acer, Asus, TSMC, Samsung, LG, Hyundai, Sony, Toshiba, Toyota still operating when their Gov Change!

Change is only constant in this flat World! Without Change there is no Progress!

Hi Gilbert,

Thanks for sharing your experience and I applaud your bold spirit.

However, I wonder if it is really true that one can find a country “that does not discriminate against age” and where it won’t be “very difficult for someone who is above aged 40 years old and not very skilled” to find work, especially when one is a foreigner there? If I am not wrong, your chance of getting a PR in Australia is zero or near zero when one hits 44 years-old even if one has all the desired skills and qualification. Meaning, to be hired in Australia your age does matter too.

Back to employment in Singapore, I do agree that the influx of “foreign talents” did contribute to a large extend to locals being unemployed and the increase in social concerns. This is a chicken and eggs problem, which I hope the ministry should seriously look into.

Not only Gilbert is being displaced, those Diploma and Degree PMETS are displaced too when they reach 40 plus unless they are at the top!

That is very practical Displaced 1 Senoir Eng of $4500 can employed 2 or 3 FTs of $1800.
Don’t blame the Employer. If you want to save cost, to compete you had to do that!

The unlucky Group is mid 40, they are at cross road to be terminated where their children are young and parent are yet to go heaven!
For 60 plus group, they take retrenchment benifit and go for happy retirement

PMETs take ownership in your hand! Look at the future, you might be one of them!

113) KopitiamApek on July 3rd, 2009 3.46 pm

Perhaps, I did not elaborate more and clarify clearly. I did not take redistribution in that strict manner. You have to look from a point where a minister is being replaced by an equal from another group. Redistribution may come in having to forgo the rights to represent the people if they slack and having to take the views of the people seriously and not at their expense.

It is beyond my understanding that the existing group can be so special that they possess some special talent / knowledge that no other group cannot better / comprehend even in their very complex term. Mind you, this is made worst if detailed information / explanation is not forthcoming and even if it comes, it leaves more questions than answers, if you know what I mean.

“a bit confusing when you use different names while replying.”

You are intelligent. You will have no problem in deciphering this little confusion.

116)Creducator,

We apply as a family and they consider my wife’s age which is four years younger.

We are on 4-year work visa and will try to convert it to PR after two years here.

It is better to apply earlier say below age 40 so that chances are higher.

They give you betwwen 2-5 years to come over.

It is true that now it is tougher to get PR here due to their own unemployment issue.

Hope this help.

Thank you Gilbert for sharing your experience. My own sister and family is in the US for over 10 years and have no plans to come back at all . My younger brother and wife, with no kids are planning to go Down Under by next year, they both studied there , worked here for a while and made the final decision. Have a friend, Eurasian and Chinese couple with 3 kids. went over about 5 – 6 years ago. He took a nursing course there and works in a home. Kids were struggling with Chinese and now doing very well in studies and ECA too. Sharing from friends and family overseas, yes Singapore has gotten worst for work and family upbringing. Those who have gone and come back for visit or short stints of work , do not want to come back at any cost or prompting from the government.
Have two girls in secondary and are open to leaving Singapore as they have relatives “overseas” . Told them to go and bring us later ! I regretted not leaving as wife’s side is rooted here. Well make the best for us PMETs. Bottom line is this. The government is not going to make life any less stressful for us. You all decide. As for me I’ve voted against them at every possible election that I had to vote. You are quite right too. Those who have lived overseas have a totally different mind set from the average Singaporeans. Life is not only about working and making more and more money. I really fear for the younger generation, life will really be very tough for them. As for the economic crisis, we will not be going back to the good old days. In the end we make the decision to stay or leave and live by it.

Hi Gilbert,

Thanks for your clarification and confirmation (#119). So you can see that age is a problem in other countries as well other than in sg (in terms of getting employment & residency). The only different is that if one is old in sg, one would have to fend for one’s livelihood, while in other countries, one could rely on state welfare.

The exodus of the locals to other countries will probably increase. I noticed there is a tendency for companies’s application form to ask local males who have completed NS what rank they have obtained after completing full time NS, this is a practice also for the civi service.

120)Acacia

You are welcome. Decisions are often make together with our family members.

For those with family, it is good to have a joint decision or else thigns will get messy when you go abroad.

We were in TAsmania in 2000 but didnt make it due to conflict. We were then not ready for the move.

We returned after one year and this is our second attempt at moving abroad.

You can say that I dislike the way society is going forward and wanted a change for myself and family.

There is still time and do go through with your family.

You can apply for the visa first and then prepare yourself for the move. They always give you some time to transit.

Letr me know if you need some help here.

121)Creducator,

That is for application for PR/work visa for Australia, I know that they are not discriminating against age as you cant show your age, gender, religion and other sensitive information on your resume.

It’s against labour law here. You can complaint if an employer violates labour law and be assured that your unions will fight for you.

I know that unions in Singapore are toothless and tripatism, to me, is uselss if it is all in favour of the employers.

Employers here also do not really bother too much about your gualification. If you dont have a degree, you can use your experience to look for work unlike Singapore. Middle aged non-graduate PMETs with tons of experience are being laid off like the flies back home.

The future doe not look bright for this category of workers.

Experience and whether you can do the job is more critical here.

Hope this help.

Gilbert, on your part that PMET without degree will suffer more, those with degree also kena retrenched also plenty. This also brought back the matter regarding those professional from the neighbouring ASEAN countries, the Malaysian like to become PR n later changed to local citizenship but today the trend is gone already, most of the Malaysian I spoke to found the working lifestyle too pressurizing n like to go back to their country.

Thanks, Gilbert.

Hi ACACIA (#120),

You “really fear for the younger generation, life will really be very tough for them.”? It may be true, but the younger generation still have the opportunities to follow the footsteps of Gilbert and many others who have sought greener pastures. Therefore, there is no fear for them…. just a matter of choice.

I would say, we should fear for those who are above 40 in sg. For these are those who are being stuck in sg, seeing sg (including her jobs and resources) being taken over by “foreign troops” who are welcome with open arms by the people being paid to make decision for sg. These foreigners are holding on to sg top and bottom positions, leaving the middle positions to sporeans for now. In the not so far future, even the middle positions will be filled by the “foreign troops”.

Unfortunately, these “foreign talents” are not going to be rooted in sg after benefiting from her resources and funding (no matter how our govt hope they will stay for good). Most of them only come to sg to make a quick buck or use her as transition to a better life back home or in another country of their dream, then leave her for good within the next few years when their aims have been fulfilled. Not forgetting that they are being paid by the true blue sporeans’ tax.

Base on the above state of affair, which is unlikely to change for the better, what will become of sg in the next 10 to 15 years, when most of the true blue sporeans are getting fewer and older?

Our only hope is the rise of a credible and effective political party who really care for sporeans before it is too late.

creducator, it is really sad to see locals reacing 40 n having a degree having to woryy of being laid off. It seemed that this country is becoming a place to work but not to retire in.

118) redistribution of income

Thank you for your clarification.

/////It is beyond my understanding that the existing group can be so special that they possess some special talent / knowledge that no other group cannot better / comprehend even in their very complex term.///////

Very true indeed. It is all too subjective.
Who-you-know-and-not- what-you-know

////You are intelligent. You will have no problem in deciphering this little confusion.//////

Thank you for your compliment. But not having to decipher would be a better option, as it eliminate one possible ource of miscommunication.

Will4 (#127),
You are right. I wonder how our MM feel about the sg he and his cabinet had built over the years is turning into a “transit lounge”. Is he proud of this? Or does he even know it is the case?

We should let the brain drain worsen. Seriously, we all want change in this country, but there is no incentive for such, until the economy has hit rock-bottom. We should all do our best to create the incentive for change by driving the economy to hit rock-bottom. Highly qualified and talented Singaporean, please migrate asap. MNCs, please diverse your operations from Singapore.

130) smallvice585

I have a good laugh over your post but frankly you may have a point there.

Indonesia’s Suharto went down because there were issues facing him chief of which is corruption and people’s power.

Philippines Marcos also got toppled because of corruption and people’s power.

Thailand’s Thaisin also left the country because of corruption and people’s power.

I hope that we all get the drift here.

131) Gilbert Goh 130) smallvice585

I think you are putting the case of things have to become worse before it gets better, but for the countries cited, they seems to be getting “worser” and “worser” leh.

130) smallvice585, your comment is so humorous but makes sense. :)

But I am not too sure if the ruling party will even bother to do something when that happens. For they might be the creators of the “transit lounge” and want it to remain so.

Gilbert (#131), Kopitiam Apek (#132), creducator (#133),

Lol, I don’t think that it is Smallvice’s intention to be humorous. He does sincerely want to worsen to brain drain so that Singaporeans will kick the PAP out of power, and hence allow him and his minions to rule Singapore.

Not kidding, really!

hmn…. 130) smallvice585 = 134) Arix ? *eyes rolling*

hi creducator #135,

Don’t you know Arix is one of my minions? LOL

Aiyo this is getting serious…

Hi Gilbert Goh #131,

Change can only happen when there are strong push and pull factors in action. We want government reform but it will not happen because the circumstances are not bad enough (no push) and because our current Opposition has neither the number nor perceived credibility to become Government (no pull). Singapore is indeed in a bad state of affairs.

Hi GIlbert Goh #137,

Of course it is getting serious. Politics has no room for religious people who are alive.

139) smallvice585,

Care to elaborate on “Politics has no room for religious people who are alive.”?

hi creducator #133,

Well, if PAP intends to keep Singapore as a transit lounge yet our political and economic climate has fortified the foundation of people’s power, then change no longer remains as a choice for PAP as the People themselves can effect change.

Hi creducator #140,

That statement is for provoking Arix. “Religious people” was referring to Arix. He and I share certain fundamental disagreement on the participation of religion in public life. It has been fun to mislead him [in some TOC threads] to make statements about his God that deviates substantially from his own religion – Roman Catholism. Haha…

@Maximillan

Glen Waverley is around 30+KM from Melbourne City if we take the Eastern Freeway, or 26KM if we take the Monash Freeway right?

Lets take the linear distance as 26KM. Using this Linear distance, this is approximately the distance of Woodlands to Singapore City, so with A$550K, I can buy plenty of flats available in Singapore.

I can also buy private landed property (albeit with 99 year leases only though) in Woodlands with this amount of money. Furthermore, if we factor the interest rates and loans over a period of 30 years, in SG, I can pay for a home of $800K with the amount which in AU which I can loan for A$550K due to the huge disparity in interest rate.

Do note some things here. I’ve got family members who have huge Kampung Homes on which I’ve stayed for months. I have no particular preferences on landed vs non-landed.

Furthermore, when you placed 550sqm, you’re not telling the whole picture. Thats the entire property which includes the porch, your car park etc. It is not the entire liveable space, which I have no interest in. Most Australian homes are indeed bigger then SG, but I suspect the property you are talking about is probably at a max of 150 – 200sqm of liveable space.

@Maximillan #98

Thanks for the correction. Somehow always thought of it as 3 years instead of 4. Nevertheless, AU Passport is still something which consistently sets me thinking. I wanna go there only for 1 reason. The free medical which is pretty significant for a person with pre-existing condition like myself (although not under the serious list).

But if I do go, I’m not prepared to lose my Singapore CItizenship. No matter how, Singapore is home to me. Thinking and thinking still

The people I came across returning to Singapore after a number of years abroad sometimes return to put their kids back into our school system. I find that quite odd, if that was what they were running away from in the first place. And quite a number will again go abroad after finding it hard to adapt back to SG and after some year return to SG again. It become a routine, unsure whether to be here or there. I know some of them doing this for decades.

I think it is hard to let go, it may be sad to feel leaving the place we are born, the miss will always be there, and the yearning to return remains. But once back, the yearning to run away from this place returns. So the cycle goes on.

It becomnes a lifestyle choice.

I would like to learn from those who are now staying abroad how do you address these issues.

1. Accepting minority status in the new land
2. What is the impact on your children and their own future.

Hi Inix #143,

Lifestyle abroad is very different from that in Singapore. Living 30km from the City Centre is really okay. In fact, your workplace might not even be in the City Centre in the first place. For example, Canary Wharf is one of London’s financial district yet it is located in the suburbs, not the City Centre.

Thanks for sharing, Gilbert and inix.

For those who have migrated, I just wonder whether there is any worry that their sons or daughters will become more liberal or marry a guai loe (ang moh) in future.

148) curious,

I guess they have already thought of that and are prepared to accept it before migrating.

145) KopitiamApek,

“The people I came across returning to Singapore after a number of years abroad sometimes return to put their kids back into our school system.”

That is because they want their cake and eat it. I know of someone who has migrated with PR status in NZ yet came back to take a degree in sg b’cos the degree from NUS/NTU carries weight oversea, plus he gets tol pay local subsidized fee (he still holds a sg citizenship). After getting the degree, he will use it in NZ or some other countries, not in sg.

Hi Creducator #149,

Haha… That’s why Singaporeans stuck under the PAP regime dislikes overseas Singaporeans. Overseas Singaporeans can have their cake and eat it too. If Singaporeans at home want to have their cake and eat it too, they have to oppose PAP first.

KopitekApek

We have already weighed the pors and cons and decided to go ahead.

There is no perfect country as spoken before except maybe heaven.

Things that matter to you dearly will be your push factor to migrate e.g. a more balanced lifestyle, better work opportunities, more freedom, easier educational pace for children, etc.

If you are happy where you are, stay put. Uprooting is not for the faint hearted.

It is not easy to uproot and left your home land with your family members (mum/dad) and friends and for those who do, they have very strong reasons to do so.

Hope this help.

150) smallvice585
” If Singaporeans at home want to have their cake and eat it too, they have to oppose PAP first.”

IF people help to vote in a few more opposition candidates, would it be considered Opposing the PAP? To me , personally, one need not oppose is not opposing when they support opposition. To me, ‘opposing’ is a strong word. For example, people may feel that the situation need to be more balanced FOR THE GOOD OF THE COUNTRY. This is positive attitude and to me, LOYAL attitude. Loyal to the nation.

So, if someone supports the PAP, he is not opposing them but
if someone does not oppose them, they can also vote to balance the situation.

juz my 0.99 cent.

@smallvice585

By Town Center, I’m referring to Key Business Districts. In WA’s Context, it would be Perth Central, In NSW, it would be Sydney, or perhaps Paramatrta, and in Victoria, Melbourne. In our own Singapore’s context, it would be Raffles Place, although our definition of town is anywhere from Bugis, to Orchard to Tanjong Pagar.

Furthermore I don’t think your comparision is really that valid. Canary Wharf is within London itself (not greater London), and is pretty much within a 5KM radius of most London “Town Centers”

Also, while I do agree with what you said, not everyone who works in Singapore works in town. There are also different business / industrial areas, which are equally near one’s place. My mum used to work in an office which is 3KM away from our home in Woodlands. I’ve only worked in Tanjong Pagar for 1 year, and I now work in Bukit Batok. Not exactly city.

The reason why I brought up the distance to city issue, is because this is the most common determinator of price. Unlike certain Countries where certain suburbs must be avoided at all cost due to violence, crime, (And thus you have the nice vs not so nice suburbs), Singapore’s estates are generally differentiated by location, which is why a fair comparison would be via distance.

Obviously, this location pricing factor is also applicable to AU. A home within Paramatta City easily hits 1M while outskirts 40KM away in NSW can be 300 – 400K.

@Chia Anne Soo of the horland

Or you can do what I do loh. Spoil my votes. I don’t wanna vote for the Opp because its SDP. No votes of mine should go to CSJ, but I don’t wanna vote for the PAP, hence I spoilt it.

Hi smallvice585 (150),

There is no reason why “Singaporeans stuck under the PAP regime dislikes overseas Singaporeans”. Overseas Singaporeans are just exercising their rights given the opportunities and choices. I would say that the the people they are really unhappy with will be the policy makers.

As what the rest have voiced up, “to oppose PAP first” is no solution unless we have a “credible AND effective alternative party”. For that to happen, perhaps all the Overseas Singaporeans must come back to sg and be united to make it happen??? Otherwise, we would have to hope for a miracle that the present party members suddenly realize AND response to the “cries”of its people and lead them out of “Egypt” to the “land flow with milk and honey”. :D

Am I the only one that cant see this article on the TOC main page or something is wrong with my PC?

154) inix

A little bird told me in next election there will be a third box to tick in the ballot paper
“none of the above”

156) Gilbert Goh

I can see the article. Is AU gahmen blocking your internet access : )

155) creducator

///”. For that to happen, perhaps all the Overseas Singaporeans must come back to sg and be united to make it happen////

Give some credit to the 99% who are staying put in SG lah.

152) Chia Anne Soo of the horland

Good perspective.
Your 99 cents has since been revalued uopward

148) curious on July 3rd, 2009 11.23 pm Thanks for sharing, Gilbert and inix.

///For those who have migrated, I just wonder whether there is any worry that their sons or daughters will become more liberal or marry a guai loe (ang moh) in future.////

I suppose those who have migrated to western countries would have put thoughts into that
it permananetly alters your future generations to a point of no return
and also sacrifices one’s “home ground advantage” and to be able to accept to be a second class citizen for life, a racial minority, and live in a non Asian culture.

Some one asked this question ” If you cannot compete and survive at home, will you do better in another land?”

159) KopitiamApek,
“Give some credit to the 99% who are staying put in SG lah.” — see the answers at http://civicadvocator.net/politics-of-fear :)

@KopitiamApek

When one migrates, a key nono would be for them to see themselves as the outsider, whoose culture is more “superior” or whatsoever per say.

When I lived in France, I did what the French did. Short of speaking good French, I try to assimilate in, and this is the only way that you can fit in. A common Chinese problem would be for Chinese to form “Chinatowns” in which are little enclaves where people live their own livestyles.

IMO, this is what makes people more scornful about. Fundamentally, we can remain chinese culturally, but we need to integrate to the host country as well.

Hi Creducator #150,

Opposing PAP is more than just electing Opposition Politician into parliament. If I am only refering to electing Opposition into Parliament, I would not have used the words “opposing PAP”.

KoitiamApek

Ya I cant see the article at my end:(

Some one asked this question ” If you cannot compete and survive at home, will you do better in another land?” It all boils down to supply and demand. The labour market in Singapore and abroad are different. In countries such as the UK, specialised labour such as plumbers and electricians are in shortage and they are highly valued. In Singapore, nobody gives a hoot about these jobs. In Singapore, a military career is ranked at the bottom while a military career is considered highly prestigious in countries such as the USA, UK and the European Union. Different labour benchmark doesn’t necessarily mean lower benchmark.

Thanks Gilbert and Inix for contributing to our understanding of the issue!

I gather from the discussion that Australia may not be cheaper than Singapore, but there are the non-monetary benefits that can push people.

But just want to check about the job opportunities there too. In Singapore (as you can tell from the other comments), the biggest problem is PMET unemployment. This is an unintended feature of our social mobility where now everyone clustered in the PMET category, which outstrips the supply of PMET jobs.

How about Australia? Do they have a lot of white-collar jobs for Singaporeans to take up? Or do we have to downgrade job expectations? From what many people have said- Australia is looking for nurses, plumbers, hair-dresser etc. But white-collar jobs?

My limited knowledge is Australia’s economy is more dependent on agricultural, mining sectors and domestic services- which may not be the jobs that Singaporeans are looking at.

(p.s.- Gilbert- I can’t see it on the main page too. If it helps that you are not alone! ;)

Just want to also point out something interesting:
Some commenter, on other threads, deride foreign workers and foreign talent for stealing jobs away from Singaporeans, making it more competitive for the local Singaporeans.

In this thread, they extol the idea of migration to Australia- not considering the idea that if they do that, they THEMSELVES will be foreign talent, stealing local Australian jobs and making Australian schools more competitive. And at the same time, be treated with the same hostility by the local population.

Globalization is a double-edged sword. You got to take it as a package.

Those who think Chinese/Indians taking Singaporean jobs is bad, but Singaporeans taking Australian jobs is ok, should have some sense of perspective. It’s all the same thing, from different angles.

@smallvice585

Can’t say about UK, but don’t think that the Military is considered a “Respected” job in EU / US. Especially if you’re talking about foot and rank soldiers where most of the time, the Military is a get-out-of-poverty ticket.

But I’m not disagreeing with you though. Chemical Engineering for example, can’t get you anywhere in SG. But its worth big bucks in UK. Personal Fitness, isn’t worth much in SG, but draws pretty decently in AU.

I guess fundamentally, its about career coaching. Are you in an industry which eventually will be phased out, or is in sunset already? Industries like Electronics, Manufacturing, is and will eventually be sunset, and its hightime people move when they still can before they get the cull

Unemployed PMETs in their 40s and 50s, I don’t think emigration to seek better jobs is a reliable solution. It is simplistic to think you can do better elsewhere.

The most important thing is you must save enough to retire. If Singapore is too expensive, then go overseas to stretch it out for a cheaper and better quality of life. And for the rest of your life.

I think this is the better approach to go overseas. To retire rather than work, that is.

164) inix

///A common Chinese problem would be for Chinese to form “Chinatowns” in which are little enclaves where people live their own livestyles.///

Maybe the phenomena is not perculiar to Chinese. All the angmos hangout in Holland V, the Filipinas in Lucky Plaza, etc.

169) RW
Very good “helicopter” point of view.
One’s view of the world depends on where you are looking at it from.
Are we soon to be citizens of the borderless world.

170) inix

///Are you in an industry which eventually will be phased out, or is in sunset already? ///

That is reality of the globalised employment market. By being acutely tuned on the global trends, one will be able to anticipate and do the necessary adjustments and plan ahead as best as one can and not caught by surprised and thus mitigate the pain of being redundant when the wrath of such market shifts hits the industry.

101) TrueBlood Singaporean

///Sometime I see those PMETS in E2i, I really pity them some are retrenched VP, manager wtih children and no one want to employed them!///

I am not generalising, but titles are sometimes just that. A VP or manager or any fancy tiltles in a company may be called something else in another.
It is the job worth that matters, and the skills one have which is what the potential employer is looking for.

If a young grad happily landed on a first job and is given the title of VP, and he assumes that all his subsequent job titles must be VP or higher, he may get himself into a sticky situation. Many companies are now “customising” the job titles to sound nice and important to able to attract young applicants who wanted that. It actually erodes the value of titles when they are used so liberally.

171) retire, not work overseas

Like running the same treadmill of life albeit in a different land, ya?

@KopitiamApek #172

Not true in the sense. Getting together is one thing, but congregating and forming a separate community is another issue. You don’t really see Pinoys staying in a “Pinoytown” in each country do you?

In fact, Chinatown is a pretty common thing all around the globe. I think that speaks volumes. As for Ang Mos, expats do have a tendancy to stay together. Even when I was in Ho Chi Min, I was staying in Phu Mei Hung, which was an expat area. Plenty of Singaporeans, Koreans and Ang Mos there, but not really due to Ang Mo town… U get the drift lah

hi RW

I guess its the same here or everywhere, you apply your skills and experience to apply for job position and also alot depends on who you know not what you know abroad.

If a friend pulls some string for you, it is possible that you will have a easier time at the interview.

I am sure that Australia is not as hung up as Singapore in terms of paper qualifications.

Relevant work experience, performance in interivew, some friend introduction are all important elements of getting the right job.

of course, if you have the paper qualification, it makes getting the right job easier.

Hope this help.

175) inix

I can think of Ang Mo Kio as a apt place for the angmo if the want to form a commuinty : )

Went to check out the Women’s Wing of PAP at http://ww.pap.org.sg but found their website outdated (last updated on 13 January 2007 event).

Hmn…. I would expect PAP to be to very current regarding their political news and activities, specially with the recent headlines on women in PAP politics.

inix Re # 143, just as living in landed property is not an issue for you, so too mortgage is not an issue for me because I managed to purchase my GW house in Melbourne outright with my CPF funds. So harping on how much it costs to service a mortgage in Australia has zero relevance for me and other Singaporean migrants who are brave enough to burn the bridges. I do admire your loyalty to Singapore, though even though it is plain for all to see that the country belongs not to the citizens but the E-Lee-tes.

Maxmillan

Congrats on your wisdom to burn your bridges and jump ship. I think many more SIngaporeans will do that with so many negative news filtering out of the state.

Indeed it is true that Singapore is getting tougher to hang on despite all our No 1 ranking. The ranking frankly does not benefit the local people but more for international prestige. What good does a ranking do for the locals when the surbey is done mostly through expats? They have sky high salary and live in Tanglin or Holland Village. They also have a chance to relocate back to Paris or London if they want to.

Much needs to be done before people are convinced to return home.

Sad but true…

@Maximillan

I’m not loyal to Singapore. Its just that I’m only loyal to my family. If I’m an Australian PR, I see no fundamental difference between holding the Aussie Passport / the SG Passport. Both get me to places where I want to go.

As for CPF Money, I’m not concerned as I wouldn’t want to sell my SG property anyway, so even if I go, I’ll buy a new property instead of burning my bridges completely.

@Maximillan

Furthermore, I don’t think I was harping on Property Prices alone leh. In my posts, I made comparisions vs property, mortages, cost of living, education, healthcare and quality of life.

My fundamental concerns are basically $$$ which are reflected in my posts. It just happens that my responses to you, since you talked about property in Melbourne. Furthermore, you challenged me with a A$550K property that one can find in Melbourne, and if I can find a corresponding home in Singapore. All about property.

I don’t know what this TOC article is driving.

The letter to ST comes from a person who is able to migrate overseas, and his main reason is that he finds his new country provide a more conducive working and living environment. If his new country is so good, then more unemployed should follow his suit. But I doubt it is that easy to do so.

85) inix on July 2nd, 2009 9.46 pm

@Passerby

Try retiring in Australia without working there for 20/30 years and paying off your mortgage and you must be joking. Have you even did your sums before?

Super was created because the Pension scheme cannot sustain the entire country. The Govt’s welfare is a last resort and only on subsistence. Do you really think the Aussie are going to give you A$5K a month to spend when you grow old?
—————————————————————————————————————–

Well, everything comes down to maths. What i suggest is get a small apartment and for the first 3-5 years, when you almost paid it off get another bigger one and sell this off.
However, some of my friends do not see it this way, they feel that if you get a bigger house now, the price will be cheaper than 5 years later.
Well, to this day, none of us have the answer because there are too many random factors that will affect the house prices and interest rates.
However, if you read my previous post, u should know how an average aussie earn enough to pay for their houses—>property investment.

I think you guys will be amazed when I tell you this. The top industry is mining here no doubt. The second is actually education. I guess nobody know this. It is a very big industry here. Imagine one year alone, 1 foreign student have to spend 20-25k on tution fees and living expenses.
http://globalnation.inquirer.net/news/news/view/20080911-160019/Australia-accepts-more-foreign-students-including-Filipinos

The number pluck from above is 382,632, so 382,632 * 25k = 10 billions income each year for the country. I remembered I read somewhere saying 12 or 14 billion is the correct figure.

It is this huge influx of students that bring in money for the average aussie by paying rent and food.

i am loyal to singapore. but singapore is not loyal to me.

i am a unit of labour. i am a human resource. i am a statistic.

there are few things which singapore provides that can’t be found elsewhere. and these few are being eroded by the relentless model of growth at all costs.

we stomp on singlish. we let our ancestral dialects die. we tear down monuments and memorials in the name of progress and property development. we chase ever more inflated housing prices as if leaving our young people’s futures and hopes behind is a good thing not a terrible form of communal suicide. we pay our politicians more and more so they can advocate the import of citizenry that expect less and less of the system. we rank. we chase rankings that make us look good and hide those that show us up badly. we drive our primary school children to suicide over exam pressures. we are homophobic. we are afraid of dissent. we detain without trial. we encourage spin and discourage journalism. we take the moral high ground except when it comes to supernormal profits. we expect public infrastructure designed for 4mil people to happily absorb 6.8mil at the same levels of satisfaction. we demand profit growth in big public monopolies regardless of whether consumers are better off at the same rate. we are elitist. we are xenophobic. we keep foreign workers in conditions a hair’s breath away from slavery. we can’t speak our neighbours’ language. we speak good english for bad reasons. we label anyone who chooses to live elsewhere quitters yet we embrace those who have quit their own native lands to come here. we tell ourselves we are ok we are ok we are ok we are ok as we walk towards the edge of the cliff. we are ok we are ok we are ok we are ok we are ok

Hi All

It is really irked me when many Singaporean (including my Singaporean friends) said Singaporean do not have benefit in their own country and Singapore PR have the same benefit as Singaporean.

I was Singapore PR, and pretty much did not enjoy the same benefit as Singaporean. And another thing that is really made me really disappointed, most Singaporean said Singapore PR do not serve NS. It is totally wrong! my son serve NS yet he is not Singaporean. If you look at that, as Singapore PR, we have to pay higher tax than Singaporean, then my son has to serve NS, we still have less benefit compare to Singaporean. How is this fair?

This thing makes me think long and hard about changing my citizenship as Singaporean. I decided not to apply. I feel the Singapore Gov treat the would-be-citizen and its citizen unfairly.

Just like the author, after living 8 years in Singapore, I decided I had enough, and moved to Australia. I dropped my Singapore PR and collect all my CPF money, and start new life in Australia as Australian PR. To my surprise, Aus gov treat citizen and its PR fairly. I got the same benefit as Australian, except voting right.

Hi Loyaldog and Singapore PR,

You both spoke my mind here.

Singapore just keeps plouging along like a corporation without any direction except for profit making.

Even businesses all operate the same way treating their workers like numbers.
Many locals prefer to work in foreign-run MNCs as they are considered humane and considerate. Only MNCs I heard have retrenchment benefits. Local companies all dispense their workers like dirt without a cent.

I am afriad that the Singaporean ship is now sailing into a perfect storm. With too many foreigners in the long run, problems will arise between the born-here citizens and the born-overseas citizens. This problem will probably push many of these two-category citizens to migrate abroad as they see that things will get worse back home.

All the best Singapore.

LIVE FOR YOURSELF AND NOT OTHERS.

You cannot decide where you were born but you can decide where you want to live.

The priviledged class get the best of everything whilst the ordinary get the worst of everything. They are the first to die in a war cos the priviledged class either leave the country first or give orders for the low rank soldiers to die first.

It’s the same everyway so crave out a niche for yourself in a foreign country you wish to move to – NZ, OZ, China, India wherever, and build your own empire.

Someone who family roots were chinese built his empire in S’pore, you build yours elsewhere since you cannot compete. It may not necessarily be an empire like the tiny island state but even a bigger plot of land when you can garden, tend to you chooks would be better isn’t it?

Nationalisms is pure BS. Just live your own life and shut your ears to what others may say.

Since the priviledged class secret philosophy is : “Save themselves first”, the ordinary masses motto, too, should be : “Each man for himself.”

180) Maximillan,
“other Singaporean migrants who are brave enough to burn the bridges.”

I don’t consider migrating a “brave” act, nor would I want to call it the contrary act of cowardice and selfishness. The choice of migration is only for those who firstly, have the means or opportunities to do so, and then secondly, choose to do so. Majority of the s’poreans would have already failed on the first instance.

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181) Gilbert Goh
“The ranking frankly does not benefit the local people but more for international prestige.”

Agree fully with your statement.

“Much needs to be done before people are convinced to return home.”

We all know this. However, who is going to make sg govt do the “much need to be done” if everybody were to leave sg in bad times? If the rest who stayed behind managed to make sg govt do the “much need to be done”, is it fair that those who have left sg in bad times only come back to sg to enjoy the fruits in good times?

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186) loyaldog,

I like your post, a good summary of how i feel. But maybe, please have proper paragraph so that my eyes won’t get hurt reading. :P

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187) Singapore PR,

You have made the right final choice. Thank you for making sg less crowded.

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189) borderless,

“The priviledged class get the best of everything whilst the ordinary get the worst of everything. They are the first to die in a war cos the priviledged class either leave the country first or give orders for the low rank soldiers to die first.”

You have spoken my mind.

We are starting to see that the rich are getting richer… they can either stay or migrate. The poor are getting poorer…. with not much help for them. The middle class got stuck in between, working till the day they die (assuming they still can find jobs with the influx of foreigners)… they can’t see retirement. :(

In conclusion, all our lamentation here will be in vain unless there is a strong Leader who can take them up and address the issues with sg govt.

I am living in NZ and would be interested to read the article “Migrating Singaporeans” (ST 27 June).

Anyone with a copy?

Singapore has become a country where the elite is happily settled and wants to keep the status quo. They want to keep a flock of ’sheep’ that they can easily control and they have achieved that. They make sure that good sheep dogs are always keeping a watchful eyes in case one or two sheep step out of line. And they pay the sheep dogs well cos they can afford it with so much cheap labour from the hinterland of Indonesia, Sri Langka, India, China, etc, they costs of operation is low and their profit margin kept high.

The rest of the struggling population, unfortunately, will have to be bottom feeders. If you can’t own a car, you just have to take MRT and buses all your life. And if want to save a bit of money, walk in 33C-35C humid heat. When you arrive to your office you perspire and smell and have to take a shower.

The elites move around in chaffeur-driven cars, never take a bus or MRT their lives so never having the risk to be infected by H1N1 virus. Their car seats are never heated up in the sun and they are always park in a shaded place. They don’t even need to look and fight for a parking lot.

WHAT THE HECK IS THIS MAN??!!

Go tp my blog site http://www.transitioning.org.

There is a full article there for migrating singaporeans.

Hi 193) gilbert,

The website you mentioned seems to be meant for migrated Singaporeans in Australia, right?

According to “Job slump hits migrants most” at http://www.transitioning.org/?p=2007 :

“AUSTRALIAN-BORN workers have been shielded from the worst of the global recession, as employers have mainly restricted the economy-wide job losses to migrant workers.

Although unemployment is rising across the board as opportunities vanish, there is a clear divide emerging between the treatment of local and overseas-born workers.”

If the above report is correct then wouldn’t Singaporeans who have migrated to Australia, like yourself, are facing employment problems?

You may get the “TRANSCRIPT OF MINISTER MENTOR LEE KUAN YEW’S INTERVIEW WITH ARNAUD DE BORCHGRAVE OF UPI ON 2 FEBRUARY 2008 AT ISTANA” at http://www.channelnewsasia.com/annex/MMinterview.pdf

I have read it and noted some interesting excerpts below which could explan why Singaporeans are facing the problems we are discussing about.

Lee on Singapore immigrants and migration of Singaporeans

Mr Lee: “Yeah. I mean, you take Singapore. When I was born, this island had probably 450,000 people. By the time of Second World War, nearly one million, it grew with trade and so on. Three-and-a-half years of Japanese Occupation cut off from all sea routes, no food, no medicines, no textiles, no nothing, the population dispersed into all the surrounding areas to grow tapioca in order to survive. It went down to about half-a-million. British came back, restored the system, trade grew, went back to one million. By the time we became independent in1965, we were about two million.

“So, long stretches of rubber estates, pineapple plantations, mangrove swamps I used to cycle down to town from the countryside, it’s now just highway upon highway, tall buildings. We now have four-and-a-half million people, 3.2 million our citizens, the rest foreigners working here and our planners are projecting for growth to 6.5. I said, look, go slow. Do we want to hit 6.5? Maybe we should… My demographers tell me 5.5 is the more likely target unless we ramp up the immigration. Even 5.5, already at 4.5, we have complaints from our people who say, look, will you keep those permit holders, those strange Chinese and Indians who don’t look like us far away because if we have them nearby, at night in the weekends, they come near our places
because we’ve got bright lights and they stay around and leave the place littered and make a terrible noise. If we don’t have them, who’s going to climb up all these scaffoldings and bend these steel bars?”

Q: “So, how serious is the brain drain, sir?”

Mr Lee: “The brain drain is pretty serious, our brain drain, losing them…”

Q: “To China?”

Mr Lee: “No, losing them to America. No, we’re not losing to China.”

Q: “Not China?”

Mr Lee: “China, they’ll come back. You want to be Chinese or do you want to be Singaporean. You go to China, you’re going to compete against 1,300 million very bright fellows, hardworking, starving. Do you stand a chance to be on top of that pole? No, but if you go there as Singaporean with a different base, speaking English which they can’t, with connections to the world, then you’ve got a different platform. What happens is they go to America, Americans then collect them, the bright ones. You stay for two, three years in their companies, acclimatize them to the company culture and take them to China, if they speak Chinese.

So, they’re part of the American team. Now, if they are working in China, I think they’ll come back because they don’t want their children to compete against Chinese. But if they decide to take the Green Card and settle in America, then I think we’ve lost them and they are going to America and those who don’t want the hard competition here go to Australia and Canada.”

Q: “You have percentages on that, sir?”

Mr Lee: “We’re losing about… According to the people who give up their citizenship and take out their savings, their pension funds, we’re losing about, at the top end, 1,000 a year, which is about, if you take the top 30 per cent of the population, thereabout four or five per cent. It will grow because I think the numbers are growing. Every year, there are more people going abroad for their either first degree or second degree or whatever. But we’re making up by getting many bright Chinese and Indians coming here because of better prospects, learn English, you can learn Chinese at the same time and so on and the Indians are near home, First-World standards as against Indian infrastructure. The trouble is many of the Chinese then use us as a stepping stone to go to America where the grass is greener. But even if we only keep 30 to 40 per cent and we lose 60 to 70 per cent, we’re a net gainer. But the day will come, maybe 20 years, maybe 30 years, when Chinese say, look, my life is better than yours or as good.”

I read in other forum there r plenty of articles on locals migrating to other countries.

Just to add to the sea of Singaporeans who migrated overseas…..

I am a true blue Singaporean, PES A (never keng in combat engineers), NUS Degree in Mech Engineering, worked as semicon engineer but had to join MOE as teacher. Left for Perth last year and now happily working with house, and buying next house.

Australia gave me a fair go and recognised my previous experience. You have to adapt here. I left cos no place to stand in SG.

Majullah Singapura! Happy NDP 09!

Hi (197) Lisk,
“Australia gave me a fair go and recognised my previous experience. You have to adapt here. I left cos no place to stand in SG.”

How is it like to be a 2nd class citizen in perth? Must be better than being a 3rd class citizen in sg?

I won’t delude myself and think I will have same privileges as aussie. Yes, better than 3rd class citizen in SG. serve NS- what are the benefits when u go back to work and everything pile up while FT enjoy life?

Aussie armed forces will still take me, up to 55.

Hi (199) Lisk,
“Aussie armed forces will still take me, up to 55.”

You mean to say au does hire PR in her armed forces?

I thought SAF also hire till age 55, and I heard it’s extending the age. No?

It is true that Australian military take in foreigner from other countries but they have to go thru clearance first. I think the trouble with more n more people migrating is mayb the lifestyle is no longer suitable for some of the local esp those educated in other countries.

200)will4

There are also many jobless migrants nowadays with teh economic recession.

My efar is that many may return to their home countries due to a lack of opportunities for them here.

Gilbert, is the situation of unemployment more jialat than Spore? In this country, plenty of the foreign profeesional retrenched also started to go to their original countries.

Why are Singaporeans so enamoured with the anglo saxon countries? Are Singaporeans impervious to Euro-chic and sophistication? No wonder I’m such an outcast in Singaporean society. Lol