Thursday, June 4, 2009 11:44
Temasek losses – Enough is enough
In Main Stories, Top Story • 4,850 views • 150 Comments
Leong Sze Hian
Both the Merrill and BoA losses came to light only after securities filings in other countries or when international news agencies reported them – and were not voluntarily disclosed by Temasek or the government.
“Temasek Holdings sold its stake in British banking giant Barclays in December and January, at an estimated loss of between 500 million (S$1.2 billion) and 600 million pounds, sources told the Straits Times”. (Straits Times, 4 June 2009)
This comes on the heels of Minister Mentor Lee Kuan Yew’s remarks in March 2009 when he said: “We’ll most probably stay with the financials… Eventually, it must recover. It is the circulation system of the world.” (Reuters)
When asked to comment on the latest suspected losses, which was first reported by Reuters, a Temasek spokesman was quoted as having said, “We don’t comment on unsourced reports”.
This is akin to saying to Singaporeans that they are still not entitled to know about how much of their money has been lost once again.
The remark by Temasek’s spokesman is really a very weak excuse not to confirm or dismiss the report. I think Singaporeans and our Members of Parliament (MP) should finally say “enough is enough” and demand that the government and Temasek give us straight answers and be accountable and transparent to Singaporeans.
Both the Merrill and BoA losses came to light only after securities filings in other countries or when international news agencies reported them – and were not voluntarily disclosed by Temasek or the government. Earlier in March, the Minister Mentor revealed GIC’s losses to Reuters and not to Parliament which debated the issue a few weeks earlier.
Are there any other losses that Singaporeans still do not know about? And should Singaporeans wait for international news agencies to reveal these?
Non-disclosure of losses between November to March
I refer to the report, “Temasek has made net gain of S$56b since March 2003″ (CNA, May 28).
The Finance Minister said that “even after taking into account the recent sharp decline, Temasek’s portfolio had still grown by S$56 bn over the course of the cycle.”
So, what this means is that Temasek’s investment portfolio gained S$114 bn from March 2003 to March 2008, and then lost S$58 bn between March 2008 and November 2008.
The key point to note is that the mark-to-market unrealized losses (including Merrill) are only until November 2008. What we do not know is how much it has lost from November 2008 to March 2009.
The minister explained this by saying that “the full year accounts to end-March 2009 have not been audited” and that “the picture should not be fundamentally different.”
He further said the sale of the Merrill/BoA investment would not have aggravated the results either. Still, Singaporeans would want to know the losses incurred, if any, for the period November 2008 to March 2009.
If the “sale of the Merrill/BoA investment would not have aggravated the results either”, why is it that the actual amount lost is still not disclosed to Singaporeans?
Inconsistent and arbitrary use of market cycle periods
I am somewhat puzzled by the apparent inconsistency that after 9 paragraphs of the Finance Minister’s statement in Parliament, which referred to a 5-year cycle, from paragraph 10 onwards, it started to refer to a 6-year market cycle instead.
“But while Temasek has performed better than many other large investors over this 6 year market cycle, it is not realistic to expect it to outperform in every cycle,” Mr Tharman had said.
“It is also not realistic to expect it to avoid losses on every individual investment, or losses on its overall portfolio when the markets go through sharp corrections.”
While that may be true, without a consistency in reporting of its performance over 1, 3, 5, 10, 20, 30 years, and since inception, how can one make a meaningful comparison with others?
Why does the minister arbitrarily use a 6-year market cycle for his evaluation, instead of the 5-year cycle he used earlier? In the final analysis, Singaporeans still do not know how much was lost in the Merrill investment.
And the how, why and who were involved in the decisions and processes leading to the loss! If we don’t question how and why it happened, how do we learn the lessons to avoid a repeat of the Merrill/BoA saga?
This is the fundamental issue, which is an entirely different issue from how well Temasek has done over the last 6 years.
Read also: Temasek may have lost 800 million pounds on Barclays – Reuters —-
Related posts:
150 Comments
CJ
Lao Uncle
The citizens of Singapore deserve Transparency and Accountability in the management of our funds.
No question about that.
Our public servants must not delay any more.
ErniesUrn
Beginning to look like one big gaint NKF scandal. This is sad news for Singaporeans.
tew ah seow
ABC learning, ShinCorp, Merrill BOA, Citi, UBS, Barclay ….. wah, the lists go on. I thought GIC and Temasek are governed by talented people. Can we trust them ? Can we trust Pap ? Can we take back our Cpf ? Cpf minimum sum will continue to increase, I bet our money will go now the drain if we continue to vote for Pap.
kf
I don’t mean to get off tangent even if we are discussing about Temasek Holdings now. The fact that it was in the spotlight recently, and this was not treated with aggregated emphases by Parliament gives the impression of a failure in the accountability system, and I am looking forward to see how the finance minister (or anyone else involved) get out of this one now.
Sigh
ironman
Look, the government has never acknowledge that the assets of temasek belong to the people. The fact is, it belongs to the government (MOF), its sole shareholder and by that, it means temasek does not have to account directly to the people. So, even if Temasek screws up and loses all its money, the people still do not have right to question the management / BOD of Temasek, only the government has this right – of course, it is the absolute prerogative of the government whether it wishes to even listen to whom it might regard as “lesser mortals”.
Jeff
4 June 2009 (20th Annieversary of the Tiananmen massacre)
Can someone (Sze Hian or TOC etc) organize something at Speakers’ Corner to rally support amongst citizens to demand the government and/or President disclose the full extent of ALL losses by both Temasek and GIC, accountability, etc? Perhaps crowdsource for questions to be raised and formally submitted (petition-styled) to the govt and President for proper reply. Let’s fill the Speakers’ Corner to overflowing for the first time.
Can Singaporeans do a “Tiananmen” here, in memory of those brave Chinese killed exactly 20 years ago who rightfully should be credited for dismantling the communist system, dismantling the Berlin Wall, the old Soviet bloc, etc…..
The “lesser mortals” have suffered long enough and it is time to rise up to RIGHT THE WRONG.
Come to think of it, why should 90-95% of the citizens be cowered and dictated by the PAP and their elitist system and inner circle?
It is time we UNITE to demand for FULL ACCOUNTABILITY AND TRANSPARENCY for the billions of taxpayers’ money lost by Temasek, GIC (and even our CPF? MAS? etc…?).
If we (the citizens of Singapore) do not show we care for our very own money (our reserves), then we will have been deemed to have given the PAP and the government the blank cheque to do whatever they like in the future, without accountability and recourse for their actions!
Truly, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!
ABC
The PAP govt’s motto is your money is my money my money is my money, so don’t question how I spend ur money.
Daniel
“ah, the lists go on. I thought GIC and Temasek are governed by talented people.
Of course they are talented. They are just very extraordinary talented in losing billions of state money and then pretend it is not their interest to be accountable to Singaporean.
“Can we trust them ?”
Do you have a choice ? Even if you don’t trust them, what are you going to do anyway ? Police , IMH, ISA , everything belongs to gov. Obviously they believe that state money is their money too.
“Can Singaporeans do a “Tiananmen” here, in memory of those brave Chinese killed exactly 20 years ago who rightfully should be credited for dismantling the communist system, dismantling the Berlin Wall, the old Soviet bloc, etc….”
No need for tank, I doubt Singaporean has the courage to stand in front of police car.
kickafuss
Ironman,
I’m puzzled. Isn’t it true that the government doesn’t own any money since its money comes from the people?
I Can Honestly Say . . .
that it seems to suggest that it is ok to lose money as long money has been made before?
So when the IR opens, I should tell my family the same thing when I hit the gambling tables. It is ok to lose money because I have won before too.
How come the long term is now suggested to be 6 years? But we all know why it is this magic number from 2003 onwards and not any year before then.
DavidSeeLeongKit
For 2) Lao Uncle :
> This 61-year old Senior Citizen say: TRANSPARENCY and ACCOUNTABILITY are just two of the many supposedly “PAP virgin-pure values” of Integrity, Meritocracy, Incorruptibility, blah,blah,blah…….ad nauseum.
> Good Example of “empty/insincere political promises” [polite phrase for "political bullshit"]:
When he took over as PM in 2004, Ah Loong had promised “an OPEN and INCLUSIVE Singapore”.
OPEN = tell us the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth about all the Mindboggling Monumental Financial Losses of GIC/Temasek.
INCLUSIVE = keep ALL Singaporeans informed (because their hard-earned monies and CPF savings are involved !!!)
> Singapore’s obscenely-paid Million-dollar Ministers are truly “First-World” as self-proclaimed? RUBBISH !!!
It’s over-paid Bird-brained Bureaucrats are really “First-Class” as self-proclaimed? MY FOOT !!!
deep pocket
3 words to describe: Corruption, Corruption, Corruption.
Small Time Businessman
the amazing thing about these over-paid Bird-brained Bureaucrats is that never for once we see them “paiseh” or sorry about the losses
People Allow
I think we should not jump to conclusion.
The People Trust the Gomin.
If the Loss was made in December and January, the highly respected and trusted MSM ST whose chief editor also very credible and unbiased , would have reported to the People during that time.
Also, our even more revered and respectable leader by the name of LKY had so much confidence that he said “Eventually, it must recover. It is the circulation system of the world.”
So, surely they are as trustworthy now as before?
People , please continue to trust. I do that and not only that,
I join the line dance and karaoke at RC and watch free oldies movies and play taichiquan with RC members too. They very fun wan. Honest and Trustworthy.
mice is nice
this is what happen when the person trusted with too much money is tasked to handle it, after some time the person is inclined to think its his, therefore not accountable to the original owner.
the opposition parties better think of some ways to “ring fence” those who squandered the money.
Spirit-centred
They have sold so many bank shares. How many bank share still on the list not sold yet!! I wondered, maybe they have sold all and make huge losses still kept queit.
SZ
In Singapore, success will be proclaim with fanfare and loud voices and credited to the first world leaders…whoever when fiaso like this occur, you can only hear whisper about it and everything is brush off as external factors causes….unique SGP
mad93
I think we should dont trust the government no more? There must be someone out there in our country who will stand up to the government.
I agree much, enough is enough.
Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang)
Well, the best we can do now is write a song about Recovering The Losses and get the newer MPs to sing it lor.
ccb
No wonder CPF minimum sum went up and LKY scooted off to UK. and all this happened when you know who was Temasek CEO.
I have had it up to here
What is known via either the internet or the Foreign highly international and world class news sources, and some local MSM sources, I wonder are these Losses all that there is? Does this mean smaller losses here and there do not exist?
So, what are reported or released info, what mechanism certifies the accuracy and can allow the People to know for sure that such info can be proven by black and white to prove beyond reasonable doubt there is absolutely no inaccuracies ?
I mean, I am used to trust. But this 5 letter word is becoming less than satisfactory to me as I was burnt in investment recently for over trusting. With all the due respect it can get, I would say I like to trust AND I like to see some hardcore evidence.
Wonder bar
I wonder what has any of the MPs got to say about this?
MPs, over to you.
Many may be waiting for your reply seeing all the numerous questions posed.
MPs are so great, that they represent the people wor.
dying freedom
It is not the government that we should not trust it is the PAP with Talent or Elite or whatever xxxx coming together to con us.
ST_fan
>>should Singaporeans wait for international news agencies to reveal these?
No need…we’ve our State Time and their “professionalism”
what is the meaning of accountability.
I do not trust Tharman to do the right thing.
He could have told us this loss in the recent parliament but he chose not to.
Can I still trust him? No.
Loss of $1bil and he kept quiet.
What else is there to hide – more realised losses, or more unrealised gains?
If a loss of $1bil does not require him to volunteer this information in Parliament just 1 week ago, what is there to prevent him stonewalling more losses?
We need opposition in the GIC / TH.
ironman
To be fair to the MPs, some of them like Inderjit and M.Palmer did question the minister about the losses etc. But what do they get?
They got assurance (trust them?) that the losses are OK because TMSk made A LOT MORE before, they can afford the losses mentioned, and still look pretty. now beat that.
The minister has cleverly put a stop to all those questions about temasek’s losses – that they still can afford to lose another $56B and they still breakeven!!
ellen
Don’t blame the opposition every time. Is not the present elite group given the mandate by the loyal citizen themselves. Everything will be forgotten at the ballot box with upgrading and some peanuts. It will be a dream if fellow singaporean are looking forward to withdraw the cpf. Think of the future generation if changes are needed or else we should not complaint too much. Do not think your one vote is not important, you make your choice
Ak
Interesting reading
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/blogs/dealbook/cuomomerrill021109.pdf
Harry
Singaporeans are absolutely disgusted with the secretive and discriminative ways of the PAP government. That’s right Enough is Enough. Now is time for
Singaporeans to take actions against a poor performing, non-reponsive,
non-accountable and reckless government.
Small Time Businessman
“Quick to humtum slow to credit seems to be the hallmark of bothLZH & opp”
If you take superman pay, it’s only natural that we demand superman results
Law
You mortals out there. You gave them the mandate to run this country and manage the reserves.
If they made profits, sure they will blow the trumpets, roll the red carpets and announce that our golden age is here.
If they made a loss, they will just tone down and sweep the news under carpets and focus on other more “important things”. If you all mortals start to question and demand for transparency, all department in the ministries will take out every english dictionaries out there to choose their words, play with figures and time, hold meetings to brainstorm the official statement to make it seems things are not so bad after all.
Who's making money?You, me, or the elites?
#28) fengchu on June 4th, 2009 4.47 pm
So far the only people who say they have made money are the elites themselves.
However, I do not trust these people anymore.
So can you tell me specifically which are the investments that have made money?
agree with fengchu
we should all just SHUT UP AND SIT DOWN !
Leong Sze Hian is doing the wrong thing by ’stand up and ask question?’
right Feng chu?
Daniel
Can Lucky Tan confirm that fengchu is his disciple ?
Jason
Wasn’t March 2003 a low point for the Singapore stock market? I would think it was a low point for Temasek’s portfolio as well. Nice start point to illustrate good returns, right?
lego
Wall Street Journal reported (4th June) that Temasek lost US$850 million while Abu Dhabi made US$2.5 billion on Barclays Bank shares. Temasek bought high sold low, whereas Abu Dhabi boutght low sold high!!
Why did our Finance Minister chose 2003 as the starting to measure Temasek’s performance? Why not 2000? Also, why did he measure the performance in S’pore Dollars? Why not US Dollars?
lego
We need “Freedom of Information Act” here…..like they have in the US.
tiredsingaporean
I really dun wish to see another similar case like the ex.marcos of philippines, when his govt was toppled and he went into exile, they leave the country almost into bankruptcy and the people to suffer for it.
Small Time Businessman
Tharman, we are waiting for your excuses
farnie
oh go ahead and whine more. think about who put them into power in the first place
SZ
28) fengchu
If you proclaim yourself to have superhuman capabilities to justify superb pay etc, then you have bear the backslash when you failed to deliver the superb result that is expected…
“Quick to humtum slow to credit seems to be the hallmark of bothLZH & opp”
The quick to put down of LZH and opp is the hallmark of people, guess what, is from people just like you fengchu
Dear dear fengchu, i think you are looking at it the wrong way, if those investments that are suffering such loses are in safer funds, the noise produce won’t be so much….however, these people invested Singapore’s money and the people’s money into something that the Oracle of Omaha won’t even touch with a ten-foot pole….do you call that prudence?
“By selectively pinpointing @ particular investments” It is not one investment that is been make in such high risk portfolio fengchu, there are multiple ,and this particular investments is just use as an example…
let me ask you fengchu, if you are an investor, investing money of stakeholders rather the your own, will you A) do value investing or B) do investment in high risk portfolio with high cost. if your answer is B, i am sure you won’t have much clients and you are digging your own ditch….
and in the end, mr fengchu, you are just like those people who all of a sudden pop into TOC, bashing people for comments against the MIW or gahmen related stuff….and in doing so,parroting what we have seen coming out from the mouths of our dear leaders and from ST…if you like to stereotypes others, be craeful of been done so on yourself
SZ
40) tiredsingaporean
If that really happens, then the word of someone will happen….something along the line of “the women of singapore will be working as maid overseas” who said that???
MakesMe Sick
Makes me sick just to watch Lim Swee Say and other overpaid PAPies singing on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQKIOhBciJ8 Another bloody waste of taxpayers’ money.
tiredsingaporean
44) SZ
Anything is possible in today’s world. Just hope that this would not be the case here, but then again anything can happen.
Ah Siao
LOL, tiredsingaporean, don’t worry lah.
Sinkies got guts to toppled the PAP? You think that day will ever come??? HAHAHAHA!
porsche
New Temasek and GIC Investment Strategy… Buy high sell low. Even a monkey can do it. Maybe we should employ monkeys instead from now onwards..only need to feed them bananas and peanuts.
Small Time Businessman
“Sinkies got guts to toppled the PAP? You think that day will ever come??? HAHAHAHA!”
Now I know why you are Ah Siao
aiyoyo
aiyoyo
when cpf $ can withdraw all at one go?
still wonder why own $ need to wait so long to take out?
aiyoyo
Alan Wong
One minute they tell us the investments in the foreign banks are for long term in line with their strategic investment policies. Then the next minute we only get to know from foreign news agencies that these investments has been sold incurring massive losses, follow up with their standard excuse that these investment are no longer in line with their overall long term investment portfolio.
So who has been telling us cock & bull stories ? They are just acting like they are no different from those opportunistic professional conman – duping us all along.
Not shameless meh ?
Kill-netizen??
#28) fengchu on June 4th, 2009 4.47 pm
So far the only people who say they have made money are the elites themselves.
AND, they never volunteer that they lost money unless asked……………..
So…………………
Also, they are paid OUT-OF-THE=WORLD-SALARY for delivering the result, with APPROPRIATE SENSE OF PROPORTION, so is it reasonable that we expect them to deliver OUT-OF-THE-WORLD-PERFORMANCE???
Devan
I thought it was LKY that said an irresponsible government would squander all our money.
Oops, I think he was refering to the irresponsible PAP government.
sian_liao
#38 – Lego – “Why did our Finance Minister chose 2003 as the starting to measure Temasek’s performance? Why not 2000? Also, why did he measure the performance in S’pore Dollars? Why not US Dollars?”
Well FM is of coz using his liberty and abusing his status to manipulate the figures to present a rosy picture to cover his and HC’s asses. Another high-handed approach that treats the citizens as idiots with his “trust the upper crust to do the job, don’t question too much, shut up and sit down”.
i luv sg
Gone are our CPF money, not their money. So wait till ur 90 yrs old before collecting CPF.
How corrupt government can get legally? Singapore is a good example
Yang
I think the PM will have to take over the role of the Finance Minister. If not, MM Lee will have to come back to see things sort out. There will be never Eough. More to come. Be prepare guys. Hope that we won’t go broke. Hahaha.
I think Temasek did very well with annualised 15% over 6 years.
Temasek should manage CPF members’ money and give us 8-10%, we will be happy instead of letting the insurance agents managing it and lost billions.
Beginning of the .....
27) ironman on June 4th, 2009 4.45 pm
“To be fair to the MPs, some of them like Inderjit and M.Palmer did question the minister about the losses etc. But what do they get?”
What MATTERs is not asking a question but getting the Answer , not any answer but THE Answer. Its commonsense that Anyone Can just Ask that question. Bloggers all over are asking. While Questioning is the mother of all Answering, Actual Answer is what Counts. So, we now need to ask ourselves, supporters and non-supporters, when questions are asked, HOW were they answered and is it Acceptable or Impressive or Convincing to the 1st world Intellectuals of singapore?
“They got assurance (trust them?) that the losses are OK because TMSk made A LOT MORE before, they can afford the losses mentioned, and still look pretty. now beat that.”
Why was this Big Loss not mentioned all the last several months beginning of the year when so many parl sessions have been conducted giving opportunities for the People to hear about their investment results? ‘why’ is because I give him the benefit of doubt that he has some solid reasons for not disclosing, assuming that indeed it is true about the Barclay loss.
Why MSM did not get the news but Foreign world class news able to publish 1st?
This is not the 1st time local MSM is later than Foreign ones when it comes to Singapura news. Can someone from the MSM exprain this?
Mr B
I have lost all confidence in the PAP, the Prime Minister, Minister and MPs. For the sake of our future, our childrens’ future and our childrens’ future, vote NO to the PAP.
Hum of Leetabification
I had a dream while taking a nap just now wondering
did Ho C. knew about this selling in dec and jan 2009 ?
anyone knows?
my commonsense tells me…..
“life too short for regradsification”
luckylucky
Now 62 and got my CPF to almost Zello! & enjoying my monthly annuity payout for life!,,,,,,,,heng uh!…..already crossed the bridge and must that the PAP policies and my parents for being born at the right time! hor……………… Dun worry too much now!
BlindMan
Hi I need some advice
My boss recently asked me about my performance as I had a been on a losing streak for this year.
My response to him was that if he had taken into account the 9 years and add them up, I am still bringing profits for the business
I think this is a fair statement, but he told me that the SHAREHOLDERS want to know my performance for this year and not for other years and we have a yearly review and it should not be taken into account…..
Frankly i was quite disappointmented that he did not see where I was coming from………
Kum Hong
I noticed no body wrote about ST report on Ho Ching resignation date. Can someone clarify.
ST reported Ho Ching step down as on 1 OCT 2008. Which means Cheap Goodyear was the person responsible for losing Barclays monies /shares sold between the period NOV 08 to JAN 09. OR is this another creative way to absolve liabilities and taichi to someone else to take the blame? Which?
The chart showing SOLD period next to her step down date. 1 OCT 2008 .
Wasnt her resignation from Temasek announced only recently? MAR or APR 09
smallvice585
Hi Kum Hong,
TOC did write about Ho Ching’s resignation. Here’s a recent list of opinion pieces on Ho Ching and Temasek Holdings:
http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/02/madame-prime-minister-bows-out/
http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/02/looking-forward-to-more-goodyear/
http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/02/what-the-temasek-debacle-reveals/
Kum Hong
FACTS is they kept losing monies meant there isnt any real check in place.. Talk only they are careful investors. We listen, we are convinced. BUT they kept losing monies ONLY shows no one really dare stand up to the OMO whose words is like the ultimate destiny. …
FACE it, all talks about there are CHECKs are BULLs.
Many more losses remained unreported.
#45,
The song is very disgusting!
hongjun
SZ
to fengchu
We are not saying that nobody will keep earning without lost, mind you,but did those investor declare themselves as first class with superb capability to justify their pay? they did not….capish? and are they willing to admit their mistake? yes they do….what about our dear leaders? do they apologize and admit their mistake? or do they just brush it off….and do they make such high risk investment with other’s money? so please don’t put words into our mouths thank you….
and look at irresponsible people like John Thain and what happen to him after the fiasco? if that same scenario is apply to you know who, nothing will have been done and we just have to move on…
“Hw do u topple PAP? Pls remember PAP has been ard for 50 yrs” fengchu, so what if they have been around for 50 years,didn’t you ever read chinese history? Dynasty that ranges across centuries collapse due to incompetence….hello! and that is not limited to china history too!
look at a more recent entity, GM, former no.1 automobile company, founded in 1908, and now after a century, is on the bank of bankruptcy….so fengchu, lesson 101, time doesn’t make you invincible, in fact it makes you more vulnerable with complacency and ego! formerly, indestructible entity is now on the brink of its death
lastly, fengchu, that’s crude of you,talking about someone’s passing….i guess it is hard to expect something out of you? do take care!
Small Time Businessman
To fengchu:
We dont support LZH. We support real democracy in Sg, and he happens to be the one of the braver ones amongst many here.
You have been a bast**d to talk about death. Remember, LZH also has his family and love ones, like everyone does.
If you have nothing better to contribute other than curses, why not go to PAP forum to sing their praises. You will not be missed here
Oh Mother of A Nation,
What has happened?
Your GrandSon again?
Did he change the label?
Division C labelled as Division A?
Did he mix the cycle?
6 year cycle mixed up with 5 year cycle?
Did he creatively modify public information?
Asset sales as profit gain?
Oh dear……..
Snake Oil Sellers
Now we know why ministers are paid millions of dollars,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
David
At this terrible stage, Alternative parties should have full confident of themselves by now. They should know that pap has no talent at all, and they only sang terrible songs as solution to this crisis. We can safely believe that pap is a weak party, the system is weak and our president is weak too until he stand up and speak on the people behalf why Temasak incurred such huge losses over a short span of time. President Nathan, speak up!!!
mice is nice
this is a good time for alternative parties to think on how to offer solutions, learn from others’ mistake. offer concrete & realistic solutions, win the mandate in the ucoming election.
frankly speaking even if an opposition party, it will have its hands tied close to its chest with so much being lost. S’pore’s moneies are being squandered like end of the world is tomorrow.
Playboy_Rick
Like Owen Hart used to say…..enough is enough, its time for a change…..
kekekeke……..
Small Time Businessman
“Can u tell u a way whereby we will nt lose a single cent, can u propose a way whereby every single investment made will be 100% safe.”
Cannot. But why pay yourselves millions when you are only human
I think the issue here is not just losing money but not revealing it truthfully thus putting the govt in a bad light.
Though we cant label them corrupt yet but there is a true case of misrepresentation here.
I believe that you cant hide away forever. Things will somehow spill out in the end.
The govt has to learn how to be more transparent and own up to mistakes. No govt is perfect and people forigve a govt that takes responsibility.
If the public gets to know such news from foreign agencies then somehting is wrong with our top notch corruption free govt.
mice is nice
hi Gilbert Goh,
i agree with you, post #76, June 4th, 11.32pm.
IMS
The problem is Singapore government does not want us to know and we have to learn from foreign media. Transparency?
S Tharman is not painting the full financial figure, just selectively telling us.
Well, who can we blame but Ho Ching!
Andrew Ong
Can someone please explain this how this happened??
Headline from CNA- Temasek scores perfect 10 points in transparency index….
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporebusinessnews/view/433886/1/.html
slohand2
Why do we need 2 investment arms anyway? Arent the objecttives of increasing the wealth of the nation the same shared? Why do we need to invest using our own highly paid team ? Why cant we tap on the resources of those private wealth managers like Goldman , who has better insights and connections ?
I suggest dismantling the investment arms, and have team of core decision makers to spread out the investments. Obviously, its happening now when a small group of decision makets decide that 40 pct of financials is the way to go, but at least we get rid of the huge payroll. Cutting costs is also looking after Singapore’s wealth.
I agree that enough is enough
red_dot
I was Shock! Shock!Shock!
I am a Singaporean therefore NOT entitled
to know! Foreign entities are more
superior than Singaporeans.
All these got to be the next Election issue!
It’s NOW time! Enough is enough!
Flabbergasted Thousand Times Over!
Daniel
“Why do we need 2 investment arms anyway?”
ONe run by father and another run by daughter. Family business. Daddy want to run business, and daughter also want to run business. Daddy still want control over business, what better way to have 2 arms. Does that explain it ? Have you watched Hong Kong Serial that shows father, son and daughter running business with father controlling and watching move ?
Daniel
“Though we cant label them corrupt yet but there is a true case of misrepresentation here.”
If every world government don’t have transparency and no need to reveal what they do to public money, there will be no corruption in the world. Corruption only exists because the chance of getting caught is remote. Without transparency, there is very likely corruption especially none of the people can even explain and break down the loss. Is creative accounting consider a fraud and corruption ?
How the newspaper paint the elite as extraordinary in good times, but in bad times, when these elites are truly tested, they show their extraordinary incompetency in handling state assets. Now, you have incompetent people mishandling those assets and still reward themselves like nobody business secretly, now is this call corruption or just business as usual ?
Daniel
If Chen ShuiBian ever run Singapore, there will be never corruption in Singapore because nothing important about assets and reserves can be revealed to the public, and every loss is considered “What to do, it happens”.
We should look into our own backyard before accusing other government of other countries of corruption.
Mohamad Hamim
The PAP can say they make profit $114b + $56b.
But they loss Billion also, they kept quiet until some news from overseas report.
Singaporean are shock.
Please help the Singaporean while this economic is still down.
This Billion lost could help the Singaporean who are being retrench, jobless, company in difficult for months.
I do not see the economic in Singapore going to recover for the next one year.
theonlinecitizen
fengchu,
Your comments are disallowed. Please refrain from making personal challenges and attacks.
Plesae lah
Remember this, CPF is never YOUR money. If it is YOUR money, you can DO anything with it – spend it, withdraw it, gamble it away, etc.
CPF is like a joint bank account, except that you are the minor account holder, anything you need to do with CPF, you need permission from the main account holder (Government).
So it is easier to think this way. CPF is never YOUR money to begin with. You have actually been forced to give away 20% of your salary. So if you are doing retirement planning, don’t take CPF into account.
tiredsingaporean
81) Daniel on June 5th, 2009 9.32 am “Why do we need 2 investment arms anyway?”
Daniel, every businessman will know why you need as least 2 companies to run a same business, left pocket to right pocket, right pocket to left pocket, you know what this means?
SZ
fengchu, good riddance….since you are so ignorance about “when did i make personal attacks” i hope you see this, look up and see your previous post….but of course this is futile, since it is good riddance to you!
Daniel
” every businessman will know why you need as least 2 companies to run a same business, left pocket to right pocket, right pocket to left pocket, you know what this means?”
Family business ? Singapore Inc is indeed a big family business with multiple companies to generate money for you know who.
U are right. temasek transfers assets to GIC and GIC transfers assets to temasek on paper. Wow… look good on paper, transfer capital and asset here and there to make accounting looks good without getting caught. That genius of the establishment. What can I say. World-class !
Peter Lim
Sold our power stations and buy BOA, PaP makes Singaporeans Poorer and Poorer!
Thinktok
To do a good job we must have a peaceful envrionment. With so much noise, attacks, name calling etc no wonder Temasek lost its cool and sold out early. No one gained.
I agree that we all should be angry and heartbroken that Singapore did not come out winners in the recent events. But as we know cash is best, and, I am confident if we wait it out, our investment will regain its losses and even make us richer. I am in the same shoe. I bought in and the market crashed. I average down and I am sitting on a small profit now. How can I point a finger at anyone as long as they apply honesty and due deligence in their job. That is life and we have to accept it.
Changing horses in midstream is not good. The incoming CEO would want to clear the table and restart. He has a reputation to uphold. Maybe that could be the extra pressure to sell out early. Very sad indeed if that was the case.
Re-aligning portfolios does not mean we anyhow reduce existing portfolios. The reason to sell must be because we feel that there is no more future for BOA or Barclays.
Cool down and lets look for a brighter future. The signs are good.
Harry
The PAP government is ever ready to claim credits whether they deserve it or not. Even after Temasek sustained such a massive setback, the Finance Minister
has the cheek to claim that Temasek is still doing a good job. It is too easy to lower standards to confuse Singaporeans and score political points but is it wise ? To do so is to condon and promote failures. Is this what the PAP government and Singaporeans wanted ? Is selling failures as a success the
way forward for Singapore and Singaporeans ?
We are no. 1 again!
Last time elites were always bragging about us being no. 1 in Airport, Container Terminal etc.
Now they just got another one in their accolade.
No. 1 loser in world for SWFs. Well Done Guys! Keep it Up! (Or Down?)
Dumb and Dumber
Arr…. I missed fengchu’s great speech. Hence, no idea what he’s talking about previously. But to flame so many people, his speech must be…. “Great” indeed
“simply put, propose a way whereby u think u can outperform GIC/Tenasek, propose a way whereby every investment u made will not lose a single cent. I’m simply asking for tht.”
It seems like the forum is mainly asking for accountability and transparency, not superb way of making money at zero losses. I believe you can count, maybe you want to read and count the posts again, how many is talking about not losing a single cent; Maybe your post only and the one I missed (that one got deleted)
Nonetheless, I don’t know how to play football, does it means tha I cannot tell singapore football standard is so-so only? I am not a cook means I cannot tell a poorly done food/meals taste no good and I cannot tell the cook his cooking is bad?
Please don’t do selective reading lah, if your mind is as “Great” as you claim to be, then argue more effectively; substantiate your argument with facts and logic.
Lastly, the internet is a true freedom of speech (subjected to in-country laws and policy), you will hear things that you don’t like, people with opposite opinions like you. You are entitled to your own opinions that the forum here are not friendly to you, and you are not being “welcomed” like a VIP. Why? Becos other don’t think you’re entitled. That’s their opinions and they are entitled to their opinions. If you want to change their “opinions”, then argue your case convincingly and effectively.
sarek_home
87) fengchu on June 5th, 2009 12.28 pm
hahahaaha even TOC is siding them, when did i make personal attacks, wt I calling for is mere alternatives, simply put, propose a way whereby u think u can outperform GIC/Tenasek, propose a way whereby every investment u made will not lose a single cent.
Well, it is not possible to have every investment making profit. That is in IMPOSSIBLE target. So I don’t think we are talking about that.
So, what are we talking about. We are talking about an UNACCEPTABLE situation where the GLC and GIC lost billions after billions. We are talking about UNACCEPTABLE reply that all is fine because we are still ahead in overall sum. It is UNACCEPTABLE because we don’t know if this NET PROFIT will still be there tomorrow. What is there to assure us that the NET PROFIT they declare today will not be lost next year with some other bad investments.
All these losses make people feel unease with the way they handle the investments, OUR MONEY. Just saying they know what they are doing and that they are doing the best is no longer enough. The public confidence is eroding. So, what do we want:
They must account for the decision process that result in the losses. They must review and tighten the decision process. They must hold those made the investments accountable.
PAP also said there was nothing wrong with OLD NKF until they finally faced that can of worms. We don’t ask for perfect investment records, but we can feel something is wrong if they lost billions after billions. If they say this is the best they can do then people may have no choice to vote PAP out. It is just like the NEW NKF finding out what went wrong and fixed the system.
The NEW NKF did all the changes and improvement the OLD NKF said could not be done.
No people may be able to provide a better scheme now given the lack of data and resources. But when a new team take over GLC and GIC, it will be possible.
rwkc
#42 farnie
“oh go ahead and whine more. think about who put them into power in the first place”
Yes, undeniably, Singaporeans put them in power. Singaporeans, or some Singaporeans, trusted them. But what have they got in return? PAP deceit!
We have been fooled before, yes, but the time has now come for us to correct our mistakes. Let us all ensure our voting in the next elections will help to make clear our feelings against this self-serving, bullshitting govt.
Harry
How can we believe what the PAP government tells us when even MM and self-proclaimed founder of modern Singapore has lied to us. While he was assuring us that those investments in Western Banks are for long term and the losses are
not realised yet, Temasek was quietly liquidating the very same investments MM was talking about and locking in $billions of losses. I am sure MM knew what Temasek is doing as 1. these are big sums of money and 2. the CEO of Temasek is his daughter-in-law. I find it difficult to trust the words of the PAP government again.
He also promised us not too long before the onset of this deep recession that we are in a GOLDEN ERA. How can this be a GOLDEN ERA when so many Singaporeans are out of jobs or are fearful of losing their jobs, and so many Singaporeans are finding it extremely difficult to make ends meet. Looks like our PAP leaders are living in a bubble and completely out of touch with reality on the ground. Otherwise how can such a proven wise man like MM get it so very wrong ?
Daniel
“Singapore Finance Minister Tharman Shanmugaratnam has claimed that despite recent losses Temasek has made gains averaging a respectable 15 respectable a year. However, this was during a sustained global bull market and also reflected the fact that some of its assets were state-owned companies whose shares had been transferred at non-market prices. These included power stations which have been sold off over the past two years, generating large gains which cannot be replicated.”
Maybe Tharman should be renamed as Turtle. Whatever good work he done in the past has been negated by his cover-up as finance minister.
Daniel
Above from
“http://asiasentinel.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1919&Itemid=233″
prettyplace
Power Corrupts and Absolute Power, Corrupts Absolutly.
This govt…just doesn’t want anyone in Temasek to be accountable. Why …I think , we all know Why and they Can.
If Singaporeans need a painful lesson, then we should suffer. Pain and Suffering will bring the genius out in us….
Just imagine..people turning old…and not having any money to collect from their CPF’s….
This has happened before in the US . I hope it happens…. to wake ourselves up ….. to Vote wisely next time.
TO VOTE THE OPPOSITION IN, at least a few.
I hope people see it and make the right choices in the next GE.
Kan Wong Seng
Referring to Sarek_home @95,
I think you mean the issue is not so much about losses but informing the citizens about the losses in a timely manner as there is no reason why investment results should not be known to public given that someone out there would know. case in point, overseas world class internation solid bombastic news agencies of the 1st world standard.
And they should explain what is meant by 10,20,30 years long term and selling in dec and jan.
since they so greatly talented, should have no problem exprain.
mice is nice
hi TiredSingaporean on June 5th, 2009 1.30 pm,
i totally understand what you are saying! ;)
hi prettyplace,
i agree, i think S’poreans need that well timed knock on the head, after MiniBond saga, NKF, Ren Ci, some people never learn, so need some “remedial lesson” (train & re-train? lol)…..
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
if the lost is an individual’s own, few would have demanded for transparency as the loss is private matter, but when the lost is taxpayers’ money then its many people business.
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
in S’pore long term = you will kick the bucket before you see the money.
your children? maybe lah, but nobody can confirm…
notalone
Now you all know why our PM getting more and more services from lawyers and people who can really twist their stories and their tongues well.
But a reminder to our ministers, non-scholar Singaporeans are not IDIOTS!
We want the Truth
When will these people honestly come out clean and tell the people truthfully how much of the peoples’ money they have lost in 2008 alone?
Omega Lee
$56 net billion …. yeah right? Why sell Bank of America and Barclays and be long term investor to recoup losses then?
“non-scholar Singaporeans are not IDIOTS”
In Singapore, the converse is true.
aiyoyo
aiyoyo
sad story
aiyoyo
ahtong
The sadder thing is…. MOST SINGAPOREANS DON’T CARE ABOUT THIS!
Ghim Moh resident
As stated in my previous comments, I still don’t get it why GIC and Temasek went to invest in troubled US Banks in the first place, the cause of this global recession. Very amateurish investment strategy.
Long term investment means “hold it till death do us apart”. Reinvestment of dividends using the law of compounding. Albert Einstein mentioned the law of compounding is one of the great wonders of the world. Things just get compounded.
The period where Temasek and GIC offload their banking shares is the period where it feels like it doom, doom, doom. That is the worse time to offload shares when prices are so depressed. It pains me that they miss the stock market rally after march till now. Their losses would be a lot less if they are to offload the troubled banking shares now. They are making the mistakes very common people will do, nothing special about the investment managers in Temasek and GIC.
***I really wish they had offloaded their shares during this bear market rally. They miss it by 1-2 months. Losses could have been less.
Good news I feel is that I hope they learnt their lesson after seeing them buying shares of Olam International, a commodity firm. Its an area where you can see potential growth in it. Commodities are real assets. Olam International may not be the best commodity firm to invest in but its certainly a better move. The propects are better.
I do not expect Temasek and GIC to beat certain indexes every year. As a normal Singaporean, I just hope that they can protect our wealth, make good, wise, conservative, long term investments. In other words protect our wealth.
Who is that Fund manager ?
Lets interview him , the talent, and see why he did what he did.
such talents must have lots of words of wise.
Is his pic on the net ? can see his hansom face?
wishful thinking old man
I have a dream. I am dreaming of investing in all the power plants in China, regardless of the provinces, any one will do. I wonder the Temasek or GIC will buy my company and help me realise this dream. And I think over the long terms, may be 20 years from now or 50 years, we can sell all the power plants in China to eventual private utiltites companies for a massive profit. Enough for Singapore to lose billions in the next 100 years. China has progressed so fast over 20 years and where can they be in another 20 years. This is long term investment, in line with the 5, 10, 15, 20 years cycle reported by finance minister. May be China not good enough, we go to India too. Eventually, may be these two countries can supply power to us via newer transmission technologies too. You think the Temasek and GIC will listen to Singaporeans or foreign ang mo fund managers? I still dreaming..fading…away
Hiring of all these 80 plus MPs
104) We want the Truth on June 6th, 2009 2.06 am
“When will these people honestly come out clean and tell the people truthfully how much of the peoples’ money they have lost in 2008 alone?”
Not say i wanna say but how could you say what you say?
I mean , they say TH Perfect 10 and I don’t mean “spin the record DJ perfect 10″ ok.
You know what? This world is so amazing. I almost faint.
Joel Low
The day might come when there is a change of the government and te new government will find that our so-call reserves are gone and we may have to suffer like the 3rd world countries.
By then the present government will have fled the country and enjoying themselves somewhere overseas with all our monies. Many countries will accept them and we will not be able to touch them (like Thaksin).
We will then have to suffer from then on as a nation. Some countries who have gone through that never recover.
This is the problem with an unchecked government. When they can assess the nation’s reserve without check. The president only listens to the government anyway, he does not represent the people at all. He may have to flee too on the faithful day.
Just a warning of what we are facing if we still don’t care.
To Joel Low @112
112) Joel Low on June 6th, 2009 1.28 pm
“The day might come when there is a change of the government and te new government will find that our so-call reserves are gone and we may have to suffer like the 3rd world countries. ”
IF that were to be true, we could not completely blame them.
The People are surely also Responsible as well, one way or the other.
They consciously made the decision. 50 years. Half CENTURY. In a Row. Non-stop. Continuous. Eternal.
Many also have migrated.
mike
Harry on June 5th, 2009 8.53 pm,
simple. he is just being a senile 80+ old man who just refused to give up his power and position and probably will create history by being founder who make singapore great and as well downfall by screwed up in coming near future.
Joel Low
113) To Joel Low @112 on June 6th, 2009 1.33 pm
Agreed 100%.
Short Term the Long Term
Singaporeans are so good to their leaders.
Upturn and Downturn.
Left turn and U-turn.
Long Term and Short Term.
must aim for this kind of job.
two things
1. Don’t confuse your desire for transparency with the fund performance. If you are concerned with portfolio performance, then compare it with alternatives available to you, such the the MSCI World Index. If you want to use more competitive benchmarks, then make investment decisions yourself and don’t expect the government to be responsible for your savings.
2. Don’t assume you own a share in the fund larger than it is. How much does income taxes and CPF contribute to the reserves, especially if you are not in the high tax bracket?
SZ
118) two things
1 thing for you, how much is yours and your employer’s CPF contribution? it many not be much compared to the overall fund, but it is a substantial percentage of your own money….capish?
lego
Come on guys…..do you expect the FM to criticise his boss’ spouse??
two things
#118 SZ,
1. I don’t follow your logic. If you only have $1, and you contributed to the fund. Does it give you the right to the whole fund?
2. You may not like how your money is managed but that is an entirely different question from the pain that you see when your contribution is depreciating. You can suggest a better way of your portion of the funds, but don’t make a big hoo-ha just because your own a share.
notalone
HC scored merits, again!
aiyoyo
aiyoyo
do we need to work until 80years old? cpf how huh?
aiyoyo
Joel Low
117) two things on June 6th, 2009 2.55 pm
two things ….. you are wrong. This is exactly the type of attitude that a lot of Singaporean have and it is selfish, self-centered and irresponsible.
Whether how much any individual small contribution compare to the whole sum of the reserve, Every citizen own Singapore. So it is everyone responsibility to check and be concerned about the whole amount of the reserves.
For your info, the reserves are monies accumulated by our late ancestors as a savings for a raining day for Singapore. IT BELONGS TO ALL SINGAPOREAN.
If according to your type of attitude, majority of us have no rights to ask about our reserves funds because unless you are a high earner like 3-4 million per year, our share is too small in comparison and we just have to accept even if the government lost all of it.
If every Singaporean are like you, we are doomed. You have to wake up your idea and stop your propaganda for the PAP. Respect the right of everyone!!!
Thinktok
We need a good and trusted team to manage our reserves, and I think we have them despite of the announced losses in BOA and Barclays etc.
Our net worth had increased. Do you believe? If you don’t then you have reasons to want to know the true picture.
I will be very disturbed if Temasek or GIC give too much attention to all these ego trips and unreasonable demands.
Logically who do you want to manage the reserve? Ministers with lower pay or even higher pay. I feel that we have got the best now, but investment need some luck too.
Maybe we can be disgruntled with the CEO because there had been too many bad decision calls like Micropolis, ABC, BOA, Barclays, etc and bad explanation like ‘I will do it all over again!’
But we still have a majority in the team that are competent, honest and committed. They had delivered before and they will continue to deliver.
In my heart I wish the Govt will buy an annuity insurance programme for citizens above 80 years old as a gift for their past contribution.
aiyoyo
aiyoyo
114b make in 5years, 56b loss in 5years? dont think so la…
who make 114b? who loss 56b?
root cause(s) eliminated? corrective+preventive actions taken?
commoners gain/loss?
aiyoyo
Harry
Thinktok, u r contradicting urself.
First u wrote that u believed that we have a good and trusted team. Then u list the mistakes they made. A good and trusted team will not make such huge mistakes that frequently. One multi billion $ loss after another cannot be the product of a good and trusted team. Unless u have low performance target.
Why limit the blame to the CEO ? The frequency and magnitude of the losses are indications of systematic failures.
Harry
117) two things,
First your attitudes sucks. All Singaporeans should be treated equally irregardless of the amount of income tax they paid. To line up Singaporeans in a pecking order according to their income and wealth is one of the worst kind of discrimination one can treat a fellow Singaporean.
Two, irregardless of how much income tax we paid, all Singaporeans contributed to the success of the Singapore story. Even the unemployed served NS. Even the cleaners contributed to the economy of Singapore. So all Singaporeans have a stake in the wealth and future of the country. So all Singaporeans have a right to question the government if they perform badly.
bulu
There is so much going on within the inner circle. PM has got his man as the FM. So Tharman will be the loyal dog for the LEE family. Just like Dhanabalan. Things are definately not right. Money corrupts. No matter what you say, time will tell. And history will repeat. The LEE family will be caught some day…soon.
Yes, Enough is Enough!
SZ
my comment to two things is under moderation, but a number of people has spoken along the same line
geng
Hi 109
I think the FM in T is David H….
Seems still around… tho not so smug anymore
boons
In the world of internet, accountability and transparency can be question using information and news. The government can continue to hide, but the citizens will find out sooner or later. The BIG question is, do we dare to vote them out? We are the one who hand them the power, power corrupts mind. Is the public daring enough to take the power back? We are still a democratic country, we can still vote out the government but how many of us dare to do so? We can only be a arm-chair critic unless u show your displeasure in the next election!
everyone happy system
how about this system: make cpf optional. govt don’t need to invest the money of people, and people can invest in the way they like. everyone happy.
to take a step further: abolish all personal income taxes and privatise all public services (housing, education, health care, transportation etc). govt don’t need to be responsible, and people can also pick what they like. everyone happy.
aiyoyo
aiyoyo
reset the game la, (everyone take back their own $)
then restart the game again,
make it simple ma. (like monopoly game ma)
oh now remember – MONOPOLY!
aiyoyo
Harry
to 132) everyone happy system,
why in the first place do we have a government ?
govenments in a demoncratic system are elected by the people for the people. they are supposed to work for the benefits of their citizens. is that the case in singapore ?
Thinktok
Harry,
A good team can still let in a few goals. So when Temasek make money you are happy and loose money you are not. We all should be happy because Tharman had reported that we made money despite the recent realised losses.
So be it, ask yourself who gave you this happy problem to quarrel and bitch about our reserves. America the great demorcracy is running deficits year after year. Iceland is bankrupt! Singapore is in a happy situation.
Maybe we should get Bernie Madoff to take care of our reserves.
SZ
137) Thinktok
Yes, a good team will be given allowance for letting in goals….however you seems to have either A) Forgotten or B) downplay it, that these people had portrays themselves as beyond a good team, they are in fact an extraordinary team ….and for such they should be given extraordinary pay and benefits….and of curse the outcome is expected, we will expect unrealistic extraordinary results…
so in short, don’t wear a hat that’s bigger then your head…and this is the outcome of them trying to do it…
and against Mr Thinktok, you are another one who use bad performers to bring out singapore in a better light, which is a typical contrast trick….how about you rephrase your statement using the better performers? the outcome will seem so different, and not so bright for TH
Harry
To 135) thinktok,
1.Did the average Singaporeans benefitted from all the hundreds of US$billions being stashed away ? What is the use of keeping so much money for some imaginery future problems when at present average Singaporeans are struggling. In Australia even though the government has to borrow, they are still prepared to dish out $90 billions to help their citizens in this difficult times. In Singapore even with a few hundred US$billions, the government will rather let Singaporeans suffer than to take some of the reserves to give to them.
2.The huge reserves come about because the government has been very stingy with Singaporeans. They are putting an unnecessary large amount of revenue away when they should be spending it for the benefit of the current generation. Why are they paying Singaporeans such low interest rate on their CPF balances when the same money were used by the government to earn higher returns?The risks they take are still risks to be bear by Singaporeans.
3. The present PAP government is so inferior compare to the PAP government of the 70’s and 80’s. Those PAP old guards don’t get $million pay and yet they really uplifted the quality of lives of Singaporean. The current PAP regime is letting in too many goals and Singapore is losing. Singapore is the first to enter a recession and our recession is the deepest in the world. While the Abu Dhabian made $billions from their investment in Barclays, Temasek lost $billion. Something must be very wrong if u r happy with their performances.
Thinktok
Harry,
I agree with your observations para 137. I like you wished that our Govt can release some, a small bit of it to benefit the people. How and in which area I do not know. For example the Arts in Singapore. They have Telok Kurau Studios and FAS in Jalan Eunos. They are struggling and I do not think it is actively promoting arts in Singapore. Surely a grant can be given to them to build them a more permanent facilities in a more permanent Location, instead of giving them short leases. Spending billions on Art Museums and Durian do not directlty benefit the majority of Singaporeans, maybe for TOURISM and foreign talent.
High pay was due to benchmarking to commercial renumerations. Always choosing the top winners is debatable. Even Tiger Wood has his bad days. Our CEOs pay are pegged to American and European CEOs which is now quite debatable, as they managed to bankrupt their companies like GM, Country Wide, Freddie Mac, RBS etc etc.
Lost is lost. But as whole they have scored more goals than letting in goals. Next time may not be so lucky!
two things
#127 Harry,
1. I’m not discriminating against low-income people. The point is when you buy a unit trusts investment, you look at how much your investment gain or loss, not how many billions the fund is gaining or losing. You have to measure the performance of the whole portfolio, and not pick at specific investment decision. No fund is able to guarantee all its specific investments will gain.
2. The second thing is don’t confuse fund performance (point 1) with transparency. Will you be happy if investment transactions are totally transparent but yet making a loss? Instead of transparency, is having an influence over investments what you want? If that is what you want then, you should argue that each individual, not the government, should be responsible for his pension planning.
borderless
Quotable quotes … just food for thought.
“The great masses of the people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one,” Hitler said.
“The bigger the lie, the more it will be believed.” – Joseph Goebbels, Hitler’s Propaganda Minister
Think before you tok
“Lost is lost. But as whole they have scored more goals than letting in goals. Next time may not be so lucky!”
How about the idea on privatisation of profit and socialization of costs. This is not a closed system within a small group where benefits and COSTS are absorbed fully only among themselves. Where serious blunders have been morphed into a more subdued scoring of goals, why are things going to be improved with views not to enlighten but to provide intellectual cover.
Think before you tok
correction
“why are things going to be improved with views not to enlighten but to provide intellectual cover.”
HOW are things going to be improved with views not to enlighten but to provide intellectual cover
tiredsingaporean
134) Harry on June 7th, 2009 11.13 am to 132) everyone happy system,
why in the first place do we have a government ?
“govenments in a demoncratic system are elected by the people for the people. they are supposed to work for the benefits of their citizens. is that the case in singapore ? ”
The big question is:- are we a democratic country with a democratic system in the first place?
Harry
To 139) two things,
1. If the fund u invested in starts to give huge negative return, what will u do ?
2.If your fund don’t tell u their performance, how will u know whether they are making money of not? Will u invest in a fund which did not update u regularly and truthfully on their performances ?
SZ
Hi Harry 146) to help you add on
and To 139) two things,
people will be unhappy either way there are loses, but trying to hide it or cover up only makes it worse…let me ask you, with all due respect, if you have some illness, will you want your doctor to tell you or do you want him to lie to keep you happy? capish?
“If that is what you want then, you should argue that each individual, not the government, should be responsible for his pension planning.”
Ain’t it ironic, that 20% of your own CPF contribution plus employer’s contribution is been held up for your own “future” pension….and how will the money who own this money but has no way to assess it and knows its gain/lost be responsible for his pension planning?
next thing we will be hearing is, plan those pension with the other 80% of the money you are taking home….with those people little realizing that there is nothing much left from that 80% due to living and housing expenses.
borderless
Ordinary Singaporeans must feel powerless – utterly powerless in the face of a huge and overwhelmingly powerful state apparatus. It’s like an individual trying to stop a hurricane. The who hold the power and authority act with absolute impunity. I can understand why Singaporeans feel so trapped that the only outlet is act deaf and blind. There is simply no light at the end of the tunnel, at least not yet.
But there are more powerful establishments that the S’pore govt (amongst others)is at the mercy of – the world financial institutions and military complexes. They forrm the ‘invisible’ govt that controls the world and they control the main mass media outlet that controls the majority of the hearts and minds of the people of this world. YES, the one world government is already in existence. Either you with thme or you are against them.
toiletmatter
the word temasek is now a jinx word in my dictionary, anything to do with it is bad luck
Harry
Temasek used to be a prime and prestigeous name. Now the mention of Temasek invoke anger, disgust and worst cynical laughter. That just show how much damage the management has done to Temasek. To still consider Temasek to be doing well is the utmost insult on the senses of Singaporeans.
ex civilian
I find it interesting that in 1992, the current FM was guilty of “inadvertently” letting 2 economists from Crosby Securities and 2 reporters from the Business Times see 2nd quarter flash projections of Singapore economy’s performance which is considered offical matters, thus violating the Official Secrets Act.
Whenever someone signs on with the civil service, they have to sign some document pertaining to the OSA and is given a copy of a list of violations which will fall under the purview of OSA.
Dunno whether The FM said he didnt know it was a secret, havent tell the public means its a secret *duh*
The other 4 people said, the FM gimme leber say its a secret, so all claimed they were unaware and that the govt’s OSA is so undefined that anything can be considered a secret when deemed necessary. Like say some MP’s bra size.
The chaps from the BT went on to publish the 4.6-4.8% estimated figure in June way before Big Brother’s official report in August.
The current FM was then the Director of MAS. This was reported in the NY Times. Since I was in sec sch then, I cant remember reading abt it in the local papers.
The current FM, who has like 3 degrees, one from LSE, Cambridge and Harvard cant tell what is official, what is secret and what you cant share with reporters.
The current FM was found guilty, fined $1,500 and a decade later holds a dual portfolio of education and finance, now is the FM.
And here I was under the impression that if you are convicted of a crime in Sg, you cant apply to work in the civil service, or is it that the FM is doing voluntary work and is not being paid, so the govt didnt take into consideration his criminal history. People like him end up in political positions as they have decided to take it up the ass from the current political action party. the party gets elected as a whole. they cant say, okay we are in power, but i want someone from the opposition having the educational portfolio, cos they assume since its the opp, they are GUARANTEED to screw up the job. not cos they are working for the people. no, cos their views are not in line with the BIG brother.
B.Kuppupokusamy
Tharman has such an adorable, glistening pate.He ought to use it to reflect more light on our CPF investment,especially the losses……….
I’m just so afraid that one find day, all the sand castles they have been buidling will come crashing down, and then, reveal the TRUE HORROR – all our money (CPF and whatever) GONE.