A true leader has the capability to lead with wisdom.
A leader who resorts to brute force and violence or massacre or duress or fear is someone who has proven that he has no other solution based on his level of intelligence to handle the truth.
Using brute force, sure win. But surely not a leader.

Graves should be well-maintained and let future generations to pay respect to and not to spit on.

strange but we only hear about Tiananmen only around this time of the year only. Rest of the time, its about China’s economic might, Invesment oportnities, prosperity and wealth. Moral of the story====> money talks and human rights walks. It always about $$$$$ and nothing else.

And yet, look at the progress that China has made since June 1989. Would such impressive economic gains have been made if China had bowed to the students’ demands? Did the students understand what ‘democracy’ was, or did they confuse it with the economic prosperity which ‘democracy’ purportedly bestow on the West? Were the majority manipulated by a ‘hardline minority’ looking for matyrdom? Can people living in poverty appreciate ‘democracy’ on an empty stomach?

The true impact of the ‘Beijing massacre’ will likely not be known until many years hence, but in the short term, comparing how democracy has benefitted Russia and Eastern Europe, which is preferable to the majority chinese?

The West which criticizes China’s human rights records should look back on their own – when was slavery abolished in America, when did desegregation take place, what about Guantanamo? what about the ‘white australia’ policy; what about apartheid in South Africa; did Great Britain grant independence to its colonies without bloodshed, what happened to the indigenious population of former British colonies, amongst others? How has ‘democracy’ imposed with a gun benefitted the Iraqis?

The economic crisis and the strength of China today proves that the action Teng took was correct. China is a rising power to-day and it is precisely this rise that the West is trying to thwart. China will disintegrate if democracy is implemented too quickly, and that is what the West wants. China to disintegrate! Russia to disintegrate etc

So they spend a lot of effort remembering this event to embarrass China. Chinese killing chinese is better than UK and USA killing Iraqis, Afghans, Japanese in the name of democracy and freedom. So BBC esp is shameless and keep harping on TianAnMen, maybe it is for viewership.

China is a very vast country, and it doesn’t help with the West supporting Taiwan, Tibet, Xinjiang etc. It is up to the Chinese to realise that they have wasted too much time and must do the catching up. The present govt communist or any other nist is the best in the world.

In fact democracy may not be the best form of Govt. Look at India, Phillipines, Taiwan, UK and USA.

Even in Sri Lanka, the West is trying to help the LTTE. Probably they dislike seeing nations living in peace! The doctor is the disease in this case.

To #3 LadyMadonna

Is profits really high above perple and human rights?

If only our Opposition were to be as committed as the Chinese students…

Look at Soviet Union. US destroyed them by similarly supporting some misguided so-called democrated movement (even giving their drunken President a Nobel prize) to break up Soviet Union . Now Russian is in perpetual quarrel with her neighbours. This destroyed the life of most former Soviet Union citizens, but slowed the rise of Soviet Union (which the US wanted).

If TAM had succeed, China may have broken up into 7 parts like the US had said. 1.3B people life would also have been much worst off now. So, don’t believe what song-and-dance story the US tells, there is no such thing, there is only national interest. To the US, maintaining his superpower status as long as possible (both economically and militarily) is his national interest.

Remember the US did similar things to Singapore last time while condemning us undemocrated with no freedom of speech. Our government settled the issue by locking their agents up. In retrospect, Singaporean life improved the most during that period of government and cumulated most of the wealth which we are squandering now.

7) Outsider on June 4th, 2009 5.54 pm
Our government settled the issue by locking their agents up. In retrospect, Singaporean life improved the most during “that period of government” and cumulated most of the wealth which we are squandering now.

The Singaporeans are not interested to know that, we are now more concern about how the same govt lost so much of our money and still keeping very quiet about it. So don’t compare this time and the last time, its totally a different ball game now by different players.

Time changed, people changed, angels can becomes devils and devils can be like angels too.

“In fact democracy may not be the best form of Govt. Look at India, Phillipines, Taiwan, UK and USA.”

Then you should apply citizenship in NP, MM or CN.

Why not you do a survey in India, Phillipines, Taiwan, UK and USA and see whether those people prefer to be in their countries or NP, MM or CN.

Alternatively you may do a survey in NP, MM or CN and see whether those pepole there prefer to be in these countries or India, Phillipines, Taiwan, UK and USA.

Are you getting bored with democracy ?

To the LadyMadonna and your ilk,

Every life is precious and should not be sacrificed for economic prosperity or wealth. Obsession with wealth, which is greed, has led us down to the present economic crisis. Don’t believe what the West tells you? Fine. Do not believe what China tells you too. The so-called economic boom is a lie. A sham. When you exploit your own people, enslave workers and deny them justice to fuel the economy, that’s not progress.

Agree with #3 #4 #7

#3 #11

That depends on your definition of ‘human rights’. How about the human right to be free from hunger and want? From chaos?

Is ‘democracy’ a guarantee against human rights’ abuse and exploitation of your own people? How about the Vietnam War – the use of agent ‘orange’, the My Lai massacre? How about the shootings in Berkeley? Guantanamo? Racism? How about the exploitation of child labourers in the world’s largest democracy?

The page on the ‘Beijing massacre’ (term taken from Western journalists) is far from complete. So how do you conclude that ‘The so-called economic boom is a lie. A sham’? And is the incident really a simple straightforward case of ‘profits above people and human rights’?

13) LadyMadonna

democracy, human rights, overpopulation (used in the 60s) and saving the environment are good causes, but are blatantly used by the West to ensure their world dominance.

so we have pple demostrating here for these causes, blindly aping what the see the West do on TV, but actually contributing to their own, and the rest of their countrymen’s detriment

Morally is Wrong! Economically is Right!

Lesson to learn! Never Protest while LKY still Alive!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7ou2-Kv4UA

Have a look at the tube above. It was created by some independent chinese and with oversea support. Compare it with the western media; you will know how scary western media is. After reading listening more, I feel that western media is very bias against non allies of theirs.

If you really read up chinese history, ever since the fall of the Qing Dynasty you can see lot of patriotic chinese coming out with books on how the country should be run. (There was too big of a contrast compared with western country at that time in terms of lifestyle, culture and even medicine) They were confused; nobody knew how the country should be run. That includes the pioneer communist leaders.

The pioneer leaders of communist were bloody capable people. They started off as a tiny faction compared to the KMT and the Japanese at the time. Manage to kick both powers out. Somehow, I don’t know why they hated intellectuals so much after the war. But that aside, nobody knew how to run the country yet or had successfully done it. The later part of Mao’s era was so chaotic. Teng wanted to open up, but Mao sort of forbid it. Teng ended up having to run out of the country.

When Mao’s gone, Teng was invited back as most of the leaders supported the idea of opening up. And there, china opened up. But they were still wary of the pit holes ahead, so did it slowly. I think this cause the income gap to widen as pple with strings gotten out of poverty earlier.

I think it was this have and don’t have, together with corruption and slow reform, ignited by the death of an offical whom supported the idea of opening up that resulted in this mass gathering.

Here comes the big problem. This so called student’s protest was led by a few student leaders. They started it but it went out of control, there were even politics among themselves. They amassed such a huge peaceful gathering that nobody have no control of (including the chinese gov).

I believe the communist leaders knew these kids love their country and respected their leaders but things just got out of control. If anyone after watching that show is able to tell me how to disperse the crowd, I will be happy to know.

If mass gathering without a goal, its rubbish.
If mass gathering without proper control, its rubbish as well.
If mass gathering without knowing when to stop, its utterly rubbish.

After all, you gather to give your feedback. No one is in the position to negotiate with the government cause you don’t even represent the masses.

I don’t support firing at anyone but I think that was the only way to disperse the crowd (I cried watching that documentary). If they don’t do it, things might get worse and maybe even a revolt that would brought another few decades or even century of fighting to have another centralize government.

Food for thought—> one of the student leaders is now working with US army.

By the way, I supports democracy. Its the only way to go. A good gov today might not be a good gov of tomorrow. The pple ought to have their power to change leadership.

The weird thing is why china wants to hide such a significant incident. This was a very patriotic act which went wrong but nonetheless still worth mentioning and passing it on. When one day, the chinese become apathy like singaporeans, that will be their lost.

Its a matter of time that democracy will arrive in china, why worry? but seriously, given a democratic gov back then. The chinese gov would still fire at the students cause its the mentality of chinese leadership but of course it will be voted out after that haha.

LadyMadonna,

My conclusion that “the so-called economic boom is a lie. A sham” is not without research and contacts within China. Just like how the American economy in the past 10 years was a lie that only got exposed now. If you open your eyes, you will see it. Or do some research.

Also it depends on what you mean by a strong economy. A few very rich people and a majority of average to poor can be considered as a good economy by some… like you perhaps. Get out of the major cities and you will realise that the majority of Chinese are poor. You will find workers being exploited with low or no pay (how do you think your made-in-china goods are dirt cheap?) and poor living conditions. We’re all guilty of fueling social injustice in China because of our yearning for cheap goods.

Just a few reading material for starters:

The Dark Side of China’s Dazzling Economic Boom
http://transnews.exblog.jp/2947389

Inside China’s Economic Boom
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5686123

China Labour Bulletin
http://www.clb.org.hk/en/node/100016

Students movement was very strong in the 1980s and some fled to continue their struggle abroad even till now.

I wonder why many who migrated abroad cant do likewise when they are so fed up with the system here.

There are at least 200,000 Singaporeans staying abroad and all perhaps are enjoying themselves in beautiful weather and scenary to forget about the plight that Singaporeans faced.

Having live and work abroad before, to me, Singapore represents the most stressful place for one to work and live in. There is simply no life and one just follow the rat race and live like a robot.

It is not surprisng after a while people explore the option of working abroad.

There is more options abroad and life is more balanced.

You also get treated more like a human being than a robotic worker.

I will be moving back to Sydney soon (14 June) and hope that I can provide a vocie even from abroad. I dont know how but i will try my best to continue the struggle even when abroad.

The Chinese have shown us how they can do that even when they are staying away from their home land. Maybe more overseas Singaporeans can remove the fear factor and bring a voice for people suffering in Singapore now.

look at this picture, who do you find? :)

Slowly, those people have reached the top and changing the modern china bit by bit. Dont be so pessimistic. Give china a little more time, utimately it’s a gigantic country. I am sure 64 will be righted from the wrong of yesterday one day.

sorry photo link

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/zh/thumb/0/04/Zhao.jpg/250px-Zhao.jpg

Lady Madonna,

I am utterly appalled at the simplistic manner you relate China’s economic growth to the apparent “merits” of the Beijing massacre. Firstly, there is no compelling evidence that China’s economic growth is in fact attributed to the quelling of public discontent and the removal of dissent. The only mention of this link comes from Chinese media and its inexorable attempts to justify its actions. If you can understand the link between these two elements, please enlighten me.

Secondly, it is inconclusive that economic reforms as advocated by the student protesters would not result in the same rate of economic growth. Even if it does indeed result in a slower rate, I don’t think any rational and concerned citizen will gladly trade that for the loss hundreds of innocent young lives. Ironically, these economic reforms are the drivers of China’s economic success today.

Thirdly, nobody should ever be above the law as far as mature legal systems are concerned. Is there a statute legalising the indiscriminate killing of its own citizens in Chinese law? In this case, is the government above the law then? Any abuses or contravention of the law should never be condoned if you are an advocate for peace and harmony in civilized societies.

Last but not least, I think you should look beyond economic growth as an indicator of a nation’s success. Yes, you may argue that economic progress would mean a better standard of living for its citizen (and that is discounting the rich-poor gap and assuming equal income distribution). However, if human rights are not upheld, we may be looking at a dark, dark world where citizens would become mindless corporate drones on a national scale. I don’t think that is a way forward for any government, democratic or not.

To Ladymadonna,Thinktok, Outsider, KopitiamApek and those who agree to thier views

you reminded me of a reservist man i met few dys ago during in-camp. he tink “its ok to forgo human rights becos country more stable in this way.” what do you plp make of this sentence? How abt abolishing speakers’ corner, paliament, elections and social service organizations, since its allows plp to seek assisstance and air grivencies?

Chinese saying: Friend not forever, enemy not forever.
Human memory can forget, but the human spirit for freedom will live on forever.

Another reason why we need ISA to be around! So that we can have those evil westerners in check in case they want to try anything funny to unstablise our nation! For those who call for ISA to be abolished because you feel it might be abused, think again.

I just wonder if the Singapore Armed forces will shoot at us, if given the order to do so..

I know for sure that the PAP govt will call them out and even give them the order to stop at nothing if such a similar situation were to arise… just so that it can preserve itself….

… and ours is not even a peoples liberation army…

I hope OUR army guys are not so morally weak as to accept such an order…

23 zj

It is not a “either or” choice
It is not a zero sum game
It is not this extreme or the other extreme
There are a whole lot of rational middle-of-the-road options in the continuum between the extremes.

26) GLOW

/// I just wonder if the Singapore Armed forces will shoot at us, if given the order to do so..///

Life is full of tough choices.
Depend on which side you happen to be when it happens.

If you are sway sway one of the soldiers on duty that day

Or if you are sway sway the victim that day, say that your kid is held hostage by a overzealous irrational group of demonstrators from TOC, protesting for gahmen to do this and that, blocking the gate to your kid’s childcare centre, and your kid is terrified. Then one of the demostartor whip out a deadly weapon, putting all the kids in dire straits,

shoot or don’t shoot?

#18) Little people

Your view that “the so-called economic boom is a lie. A sham” is just that at the moment – your view. There may be others who agree with you; but there are also many who disagree. As to which is correct, time will tell. For the present (comparing key world events since 1989 with those in China), in relation to China’s economic progress, I prefer to give China the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

As for the poor in China, worker exploitation, poor living conditions, etc – these are not confined to China. They are present everywhere – from Afghanistan to Zanzibar, in democracies, dictatorships, communist states. Cheap goods come not only from China, they come from other areas in the world.. If we are guilty of fueling social injustice in China because of our yearning for cheap goods, we are equally guilty of fuelling it elsewhere. The point is – ‘democracy’ (which those student protestors called for in 1989) does not eradicate these conditions.

But to return to your earlier contention: “Every life is precious and should not be sacrificed for economic prosperity or wealth” – is Tiananmen a simple question of sacrificng lives for economic prosperity? I take the view that the incident of 4 June in China is a little more complex than this. That is the same as saying I agree that lives should be sacrificed for wealth, period.

“Or if you are sway sway the victim that day, say that your kid is held hostage by a overzealous irrational group of demonstrators from TOC, protesting for gahmen to do this and that, blocking the gate to your kid’s childcare centre, and your kid is terrified. Then one of the demostartor whip out a deadly weapon, putting all the kids in dire straits,”

Apek, you are getting senile and your brain is making you see images. Using innocent kids to prove your point ? No wonder we have so “many talents” around us to come out with such fertile imaginations so as to stay gainfully employed for such productive work.

“China is a very vast country, and it doesn’t help with the West supporting Taiwan, Tibet, Xinjiang etc.”

Just a thought process, if you are very vast and you may not have the reach to give a ‘fair deal’ to each and every single region of your own country and different regions may see that resources (some even coming from their own specific region) are not fairly distributed / or their own regional interest is not well taken care off and feel that they can do better with autonomy rather than from some central planning, now what do you think.

Some regions are so specifically & culturally homogenous on their own that they do not have much in common with people in central headquarter. Given your above statement, do you think that Taiwan can shine better or worst on its own if not for the political football that the world is playing on them because of China.

# 29) LadyMadonna

Errata – “That is NOT the same as saying I agree that lives should be sacrificed for wealth, period.”

# 23) zj on June 5th, 2009 2.36 am

“you reminded me of a reservist man i met few dys ago during in-camp. he tink “its ok to forgo human rights becos country more stable in this way.” what do you plp make of this sentence? ”

I will be happy to give u my thots on this if u will let me know what u mean by ‘human rights’. This is to ensure we are comparing apples with apples and not apples with oranges. ‘Human rights’ is a rather subjective term, and means different things to different countries at different times. E.g Guantanamo to the US and the EU, or during the Bush and Obama admininstrations.

26)

That’s why mercenaries soldiers like Gurkhas are here to do what SAF soldiers won’t. In 1919 The Gurkhas shot and caused 337 men, 41 boys and a six-week-old baby dead under the British’s Brigadier-General Reginald Dyer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amritsar_Massacre

# 22) Jerome on June 5th, 2009 12.55 am

1. Firstly, there is no compelling evidence that any economic growth is attributable to any particular event, except whatever is attributed or inferred from certain circumstances by economists, historians and other academics after the fact. Questioning whether China’s progress since 1989 would have been so impressive had it bowed to the students’ demands for ‘democracy’ does not equal relating it ‘to the apparent “merits” of the Beijing massacre’. Your stance suggests that the incident must be viewed only in black and white; if one does not condemn it, then one must be supporting the killing of hundreds for the sake of economic growth. No other interpretation is possible. Isn’t this simplistic?

2. Secondly, whether “economic reforms as advocated by the student protesters” would or would not result in the same rate of economic growth is moot, given the outcome of the protests. We can argue until the cows come home without conclusion – what would it serve? However, comparing China with former communist states which have adopted ‘democracy’ since 1989, which – objectively – has fared better?

3. Thirdly, your query whether the Chinese government is above the law rests on the same simplistic assumption – ‘the loss of hundreds of innocent lives for economic growth’. In an ideal state with a ‘mature’ legal system, no-one should be above the law. 1989 China was not an ideal state and did not have a ‘mature’ legal system. Nor, for that matter, as recent reports (from Westerners, not the Chinese press) have shown, were the student leaders involved in the incident as idealistic or as innocent as you seem to make out. Should they have been above the law? What if what had been at stake was order and stability; what would the resulting chaos have done to more than 1 billion Chinese? An Afghanistan on a larger scale?

4. Fourthly, as I pointed in an earlier post, what qualifies as ‘human rights’ is subjective, depending on time and place and circumstances. History abounds with many examples, as does the current world situation. The last Israeli onslaught on the West Bank, for instance – what qualifies as human rights abuse depends on which side you are on, never mind what the UN claims. The same could apply to the ‘Beijing massacre’ – note the operative word is ‘could’ not ‘would’.

5. Last but not least, you appear to have tried, judged and hung the Chinese government for the ‘Beijing massacre’ based on your simplistic view of ‘loss of innocent lives for economic growth’. I, on the other hand, prefer to let history decide. Until then, I would question the version of it put forth by the West (whether its media or governments). If that means that I am relating ‘China’s economic growth to the apparent “merits” of the Beijing massacre’, than I agree with you that it will be “a dark, dark world where citizens would become mindless (corporate or otherwise) drones” indeed.

They (the Communist Party) changed after this incident. China revamped itself and looked towards the right direction.

….the massacre took place because some were weak to stop it and the greatest fear…of China breaking up was well played by some in the Party, to preserve their powers….

It could have been handled better…and China would still be where she is today, No question about it…

I hope time will mend the wounds of many and a proper apology will come for these brave students…who wanted the change and who are enjoying the change of prosperity now.

I saw a student..standing right infront of a tank…and getting run over….The Army’s spoilt it’s own image….

someday I am sure a future leader will come out to mention these heroic students…who started the ball rolling In China–for change and a better system….which is evident today and which will get better day by day….

To LadyMadonna,

I think most people/countries would accept the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights as the foundations.

You were right to point out that Tiananmen is not a simple question of sacrificng lives for economic prosperity. I’m with you on that. But I stand by what I said that every life is precious and needless killing must not be condoned…. unless you think it is necessary.

As for my comment that we’re fueling social injustice in China for our yearning for cheap goods. Since we’re talking about China, it is a fact that there are many instances of workers exploitation there in toy factories, shoe factories, construction industry etc. Of course, slavery happens in other countries as well (I did not say otherwise), including Singapore, such as our Marina Sands Bay project for example.

I am surprised that there is a divide..and how some people here, keep pointing to demorcaratisation as a Western thing and China somehow doesn’t fit into the picture….

It was not just demoracy…the students fought for….it was for econmic progress and also a fairer system for all….and all people of China….

So don’t be foolish to keep blabbering about the West….you are most likely, angry to what the Old West did…to China then anything else.

CBS News
June 4, 2009 8:59 AM
There Was No “Tiananmen Square Massacre”
Posted by Richard Roth

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/06/04/world/worldwatch/entry5061672.shtml

LadyMadonna

Your argument is pretty close to the Utiliatarianism Principle which i believe you would be familiar with. Therefore you would be familiar with it’s fundamental flaws too. Namely, that the consequences of a given action changes over time. If, for example, that five years later China’s economy crashes, then it could be argued that shooting the students didn’t lead to any sustained economic advantage at all.

Similarly, comparing China to other ex-communists states and claiming that it therefore has done right is, like you say, all the other factors that makes it so. What’s going to happen in 10 years time? 20 years time?

You prefer to let history decide. But history has a remarkable subjectivity to it as well. Until two years ago, Russians will tell you Stalin is a despot. Now, with an emerging Russian nationalism, suddenly Stalin is re-emerging as a national hero. So which moment should history decide on?

40) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang)

History is written by winners

KopitiamApek

Winners keep changing. But the dead stay dead.

42) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang)

So true. That’s why only left the winners to write history. Loser’s side of the story forever unheard.

“There Was No “Tiananmen Square Massacre””, and it is just a matter of time when the public realize that Temasek and GIC did not lost billions but earn billions.

Wow ! Singaporeans talking about Tianamen Square when none were there when it happened.

The Best Democracy, Freedom, if that’s what it’s supposed to mean, should be every man runs his/her own life. One should not be ruled, controlled, managed, manipulated, exploited and can be anywhere doing anything one fancies. Can such absolute democracy exist ? Why is Humanity born of different races, colours, languages and habits ? Why are there indentity, self, nationhood, loyalty, filial piety, fidelity and their converses and opposites ? What’s ideal ? The best weather with the greatest abundance of food, fill the stomach, mate and procreate ?

Some Singaporeans living in the smallest of all nation, if it can ever be a nation, seemed to talk and understand Democracy as if it is an absolute ideal that had ever existed which it never did. The Reason why no perfect system of governance is possible is that no humanity is perfect. Not that we should not have ideal, we must work for it, but we must not chase after a non-existent ideal.

Singaporean must be awared and mindful that Singapore though the tiniest of sovereign is mired with social, societal and nationhood ills. Has Singapore attain the Being of a nation after fifty years of independence ? Can Singaporean ‘teaching’ China how to manage itself, first contribute ideas to manage Singapore and make it the Example for others to emulate. Can You ?

# 37) Little people on June 5th, 2009 10.35 pm

Unfortunately, the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights is subject to different interpretation by different countries at different times, as is the interpretation of the UN Charter, the UN resolutions, etc.. And the UN is not in a position to provide a definitive interpretation.

“But I stand by what I said that every life is precious and needless killing must not be condoned…. unless you think it is necessary.”

In that case, our point of disagreement appears to be the scale of the killing and whether it was needless or not. My querying of this is not tantamount to stating that there was no kiling or that it was necessary. However, if the opening up of China and its progress (there has been progress, although sweatshops, exploitation, etc continue – there is no denying that, but with economic progress and more openess, this may be reduced) could be attributed (even partially) to the students’ protests, at least their deaths will have achieved something. It is for the Chinese people to judge and decide.

45) ah soh

///Wow ! Singaporeans talking about Tianamen Square when none were there when it happened.///

NATO mah. But to be fair, some may have been there.

///The Best Democracy, Freedom, if that’s what it’s supposed to mean, should be every man runs his/her own life. One should not be ruled, controlled, managed, manipulated, exploited and can be anywhere doing anything one fancies. Can such absolute democracy exist ? ///

Some people call that anarchy

///Why is Humanity born of different races, colours, languages and habits ? Why are there indentity, self, nationhood, loyalty, filial piety, fidelity and their converses and opposites ? What’s ideal ? ///

Otherwise life would be so uniformly boring, more would have died of boredom than war. : )

Races, colours, languages are man-created, and they evolved over time.
The blacks in US are now an entirely different from their follow countrymen who escaped slavery and were not “imported” to the West and are now still in Africa.
Ironically, they are now (not all though) enjoying comparitively better lifes.

Vietnamese boat people who flee the war, Chinese who flee the war, now leaves decendants scattered all over the world, who are also very different fron mainland Chinese.

If we have a time machine and go back a gazillion years, we may find out that all of us have the same ancestors, may they be human, apes, T-Rex, or whatever, depending on your approach, via science, religion or ….

///The best weather with the greatest abundance of food, fill the stomach, mate and procreate ?///

That is nice, but mating and procreating do not necessarily follow after good food as population stats show.

///The Reason why no perfect system of governance is possible is that no humanity is perfect. ///

well said.

///Not that we should not have ideal, we must work for it, but we must not chase after a non-existent ideal.///

a drowning man will clutch at a straw

KopitiamApek

“Loser’s side of the story forever unheard.”

Yup. Better make sure you always stand on the side’s that’s winning. :)

48) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang)

///Yup. Better make sure you always stand on the side’s that’s winning///

Some wiiners will lose some day. Some losers will win some day.
Stand on the side of your choice based on your life’s principle.
A principle, an ideal dies with the idealist. So not being dead helps.
Be strategic, don’t go banging your head on some wall, go around it, or run away and come back to fight another day,

“A principle, an ideal dies with the idealist.”

And then there’s Plato, Jesus, Yue Fei etc…

Oops. Sorry it was Socrates, not Plato who had to drink poison and die…

50) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang)

For the outstandingly well known one, yes their legacy lives on beyond their death.
But for my less known one, it is as soon forgotten.

Erm… okay…

Deng Xiaopin was the one ordered the army to clash the protestors, so he was the butcher of Tiananmen massacre, this was what the West want you to believe. But he was also the one who told chinese people to forget about communist ideology and just go and get rich. Look at China day, he should be the great man who saved China. So, who was the real Deng? Now you understand when the Word people talks about Tiananmen Massacre/ Incident/ riot, they view differently and depend whether you are Westeners, Mainland Chinese, Japanese,,,,,,

Hi KopitiamApek,

Races and Colours(skin/hair/eye) are man made ?

We are not talking about horses and colour pencils.

Yes, a white marries a black does produce a different colour; to some extend it is man caused, You got a point Sir.

Languages, man made ? Could there be a natural language such that a lion roar and not meow ?

“Some winners will lose some day. Some losers will win some day.”

The Irish Nationalists involved in the Easter Uprising 1916 were executed by the British. Today they are heroes of the Irish Republic.

Chou En-Lai, when asked about the impact of the French Revolution of 1789, said: “It is too soon to tell”.

What is 20 years to a nation with more than 5000 years of history?

55) ah soh

sorry ah soh
I could have been more specific
I meant human languages.

horses are man made? how come i didn’t know that? by whom. Bukit Turf Club?

Lets not digress. There is no massacre in TianAnMen. It is an army putting down a rebellion. More importantly it is a Chinese family problem in other words internal affair.
Killing is never good and should be avoided. Spreading false and lop sided information is even worst. We should condemn all killings like:

Twin Towers
Hiroshima and Nagasaki
Iraq
Afghanistan
Israel
Palestine
Syria
May 13 Indonesia

etc, etc

Don’t just selectively pick on one.

54) chinese helicopter

////// Tiananmen massacre,…….. this was what the West want you to believe. ………just go and get rich. Look at China day, he should be the great man who saved China. ,,,,,,//////////

The West wants China to disintegrate like USSR, to be like the Middle East fragmented and in perpectual conflict,

Oftentimes they will spot the seeds of dissent in a country and will lavishly supply fertilisers to help it that grow into giant oaks of dissent, and when necessary, give them political asylum in the West, and then use them to ignite political instabilty in those countries by long distance remote control.

Since the colonial days, World domination has been a addiction of the West.

19) Gilbert Goh

//// I will be moving back to Sydney soon (14 June) and hope that I can provide a vocie even from abroad. I dont know how but i will try my best to continue the struggle even when abroad.////

Leaving so soon?

“How could you leave without regret, am I so easy to forget?” – Engelbert Humperdink

“Fly to your tommrrow, leave me to my sorrow” – Bad Company “Seagul”

60) KopitiamApek

Gilbert Goh

//// from abroad. I dont know how but i will try my best to continue the struggle even when abroad.////

Thank you, you may want to keep the struggle to yourself.

58) Thinktok

and Vietnam

Agent Orange and the post war deformed kids US left behind:
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-02/05/content_303315.htm

and the one million who died in the killing fields in Cambodia

The domino theory was a foreign policy theory during the 1950s to 1980s, promoted at times by the government of the United States, that speculated that if one land in a region came under the influence of communism, then the surrounding countries would follow in a domino effect. The domino effect suggests that some change, small in itself, will cause a similar change nearby, which then will cause another similar change, and so on in linear sequence, by analogy to a falling row of dominoes standing on end. The domino theory was used by successive United States administrations during the Cold War to clarify the need for American intervention around the world. (wiki)

Including Vietnam.
And since US lost and left, no dominos have fallen.
But a whole nation brutally scared by decades of wars based on a theory someone cooked up in the Pentagon.

Respected American Christian Theologian, Prof David Ray Griffin, has this to say :
“For many Americans the idea that we are living in country where our own leaders planned and carried the attacks of 9-11 is simply too horrible to entertain. UNFORTUNATELY, HOWEVER, THERE IS CONVINCING EVIDENCE FOR THIS VIEW..”

MUST WATCH!!!
http://www.911docs.net/911_american_empire.php

64) borderless

thanks, very interesting

“Thank you, you may want to keep the struggle to yourself.”

Ignore what the Apek is saying. He is getting senile. We need people like you to be around to give moderating balance.

Surprising that it may seem, so many more Chinese as compared to other Asians are paying snake heads to smuggle them to the West in very appaling conditions. However, I do not see Indonesians, Filipinos or Indians doing this. If China has so much biz opportunities, weatlh, jobs, etc then why so desparate to leave? Maybe it has got to do with having more freedom perhaps or maybe there are big gaps in the official picture and actual picture. I guess that is why more Singaporeans are also leaving, but thankfully not using snake heads.

67 Anakin,
China still has a very serious social problem. The countryside is still poor and the rich are concentrated along the East corridor. Mass migration of poor farm hands to factories in Quangdong and other cities is very common.

China has double the land mass of India, yet its arable land is only half that of India. If the Chinese economy do not grow at more than 6% there is very high risk of social unrest.

So compared to the TAM incident, one must realise that China cannot have any misteps. Only the West are interested.

Chinese running to England or Geylang is common feature for the forseeable future. It is out of necessity and hunger and not lack of DEMOCRACY, FREEDOM or HUMAN RIGHTS etc. But if one woman working in Geylang can make enough money to support one child through school, the future of that child will be enhanced.

Singapore’s children has no such problem.

Thanks for your perspective but if you would refer to an article by Shifang on economy of India, so many posters claimed that poverty was more rampant in India than China, which begs the question yet again. Are we missing something here? Even Huang Na’s mum took risks and entered illegally on a fake name to earn a few bucks. Can’t she get the same opportunities in China?

69 anakin,
I do travelled extensively in China and part of India. Chinese are very industrious people and are experts at food production. They eat everything including beef. Majority are not interested in politicking, philosohysing and stratifying society. They just want food, wealth, face, and a future for their children.

All these chatters on the internet is not available to the majority of chinese in the rural areas. Democracy and keeping of pet dogs are fashion statements and mostly affects the people who have not known hunger or hardship.

The opportunities in China would be relatively less then Singapore for the layman but the latter’s consumption is so small and will not make an impact.

#35) LadyMadonna on June 5th, 2009 8.32 pm

Pardon me if I sound over-zealous in chastising the Chinese government for its role in the “Beijing massacre” and its attempts at justifying its actions. I may sound too emotional, though I doubt anybody can blame me when we are talking about loss of lives here.

We can question the way we bring forth our arguments, the simplicity of our thought processes and the limitated understanding of this incident, however simple or as complex as you suggest.

The fact is that there were lives lost as a result of a crackdown directed by the government on protesters who were largely unarmed. Rather than using a using a disproportionate amount of force (tanks on humans), is there a better way to control the situation which may be getting out of hand? I may not be an expert on crowd control but from an ethical point of view, I will never agree that state directed violent crackdowns resulting in a massive number of deaths can ever be justified. Why did the government wait for the situation to reach boiling point before sending in troops? Could preemptive arrests be a better option?

68) Thinktok

///. If the Chinese economy do not grow at more than 6% there is very high risk of social unrest.///

Some says 8%.

///Singapore’s children has no such problem.///
And some grow up ranting here on TOC

The lyrics of the song by this child singer is meaningful:
Tell Me Why- Declan Galbraith :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pg_MxONabNc

“War” – Edwin Starr

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d8C4AIFgUg

“War,
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing

war, I despise
Because it means destruction
Of innocent lives

War means tears
To thousands of mothers eyes
When their sons go to fight
And lose their lives

War, it ain’t nothing
But a heartbreaker
War, friend only to the undertaker
It’s an enemy to all mankind
The point of war blows my mind
War has caused unrest
Within the younger generation
Induction then destruction
Who wants to die
Listen to me

war, has shattered
Many a young mans dreams
Made him disabled, bitter and mean
Life is much to short and precious
To spend fighting wars these days
War can’t give life
It can only take it away

Peace, love and understanding
Tell me, is there no place for them today
They say we must fight to keep our freedom
But Lord knows there’s got to be a better way

War,
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing” -Edwin Starr

WAR………. failed politics ……….. failed politicians…………..

71) Jerome on June 8th, 2009 6.07 pm

//The fact is that there were lives lost as a result of a crackdown directed by the government on protesters who were largely unarmed. Rather than using a using a disproportionate amount of force (tanks on humans), is there a better way to control the situation which may be getting out of hand//

One could say the same about the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki – wasn’t there a better way of dealing with it than killing so many civilians in such a horrible way? Did the subsequent rise of Japan as an economic power (2nd largest economy in the world today) justify these killings? One could argue even if they had not dropped the bombs, Japan would eventually have surrendered, but on what terms?

As for Tiananmen, depending on which reports one reads, the student protestors were given time to vacate the Square and they did so. The killings (whatever the scale) did not occur in the Square. I am not defending the Chinese government’s actions (whatever they may have been, depending on which version of events one reads) but one needs to put events in context. Economic reforms, like democracy, work well only in a stable society. If China had descended into chaos, would the economic reforms have worked? Or even implemented? Yes, the reforms have not resulted in better conditions for all, but which country in the world has managed to eradicate poverty, injustice and exploitation completely?

75) LadyMadonna ///Economic reforms, like democracy, work well only in a stable society////

Your statement hits the jackpot. Very true.

///but which country in the world has managed to eradicate poverty, injustice and exploitation completely?///

None, to the best of my knowledge. It exists in an ideal world only