That argument could go both ways; Elaina Chong herself implies that his future research will be lacking. Isn’t that just the same thing on the flipside?

Ms Elaina, why take you so long to voice out your comment. This guy should not be in at the first place. I do not know who had propose him to be a NMP.

Well, I think you have clean up your internal problem within the YPAP wing. What kind of role all of you had shown to S’porean. If of you young guys do not know what right or wrong in this government. Then you don’t expect young people to join in.

Three cheers to the reformist and oppositions!!!!!!

Ms Chong may be right but she forgot there is something in common between her and Mr Cheng that PAP likes about them – being a “YES-MAN” – which put Siew Kum Hong out of PAP radar. Truly a sad day for many parliament “debates” to come and likely without any substance in them just to wayang ad pass time and than tell the world how vibrant Singapore political system was.

by the way, what exactly does YPAP do? Anyone here knows?

Dear Elaina Olivia Chong,

I think it is YPAP confidence that is rocked and not the public.

We don’t even associated our lives with YPAP, why should our confidence be rocked?

Infact, the public is dismayed at YPAP.

is she saying u suck but i still love to suck up to you?

The members of YPAP are like corn kids u see.. brainwashed for the instituition..their main duties include looking proper n prem at all time..practice protocol for tea parties..engage in pseudo intelligent talks on life issues.. look out for infidels n rebels around them.. and use their whistles if necessary..rehearse operational procedures for the big day..election. And most importantly make big daddy happy all the time! Did I missed out anything?

YPAP probably needs to re-establish their reputation here.

Calvin doesnt help the situation one bit.

The way he conducted himself made me wonder how the PAP committee chose their NMP.

He could prove to be a mockery of the political system here.

Lets hope that they dont choose their MPs the way they choose NMPs.

I rather go for someone ordinary than an Oxford guy who thinks too highly of himself but nothing of the common people.

I have always say that we dont need the elite to solve the common people’s problem who dont understand the sitution at all as they have never walk the ground before. They live in sprawling condo and have cars picking them up from school all their life.

Do they understand the problems of the common people?

I have little clue what the members in YPAP do.
But one thing for sure, those 81 PAP MPs in parliament have yet to impress me.

Then it is not unreasonable to assume those in YPAP are of the same mould.

Words used by Elaina Chong such as credibility, discredited, vibrant, public confidence, stellar, exponentially, to make a case for her political masters is at best good for a laugh.

Ypap is a spring board to multi million dollar salary or promotions in CS.

[i]lobo76 on July 21st, 2009 12.22 pm by the way, what exactly does YPAP do? Anyone here knows?
[/i]

talk to me
i am a ypap expert
ypap was formed to recruits fresh loyal subjects for his royal highness
but ypap forum turned out to be supported by antis
alway kannaed jabs
today?
ypap revamped it a new look with a boyish teoserluck the mayor as frontpage
no more forums lios
they also closed down youngntuc as well
didn’t know that
youngntuc is PART of the ypap teams
wah even interforums also have gay GRC tagteams……..

Opening up another CAN of worms. Sigh, a pot calling a kettle “black”.

wow, our future leaders?
i hope lor.

both related directly or indirectly to PAP.
wow, like this still need opposition meh?
kekekeke

#14, ya i also curious to know if there will be any effect on the people’s desire to have more opposition in parlimon.

@6) who sucks? on July 21st, 2009 12.39 pm

Agree with U there, what’s Ms Chong trying to say? Maybe something sensational so her photo can appear on the media? Things people will do clinging to coat-tail of a possible rising star, of which burning both ends of candle is trick 101. Well done YPAP on public display of finesse caliber of yr members…er.. exco’s.

@12) Dumb and dumber on July 21st, 2009 1.34 pm

In yester-years, black is called “black”, and white is “white”, dunno about pot or kettle.

aiyoyo

think back to basic la – economy good, commoners life good,

stay focus to ensure economy good la; then all happy la…

aiyoyo

Ms Elaina Olivia Chong says:

“who offer our time, resources and commitment to the party and the good work it does.”

So what is the good work that it does? This phrase just about null out any impact from her article…which brings me too

“that YP is a vibrant, activity-driven platform that aggressively engages citizens on the ground.”

Does anybody remember or know how they do it?i will check up on their website…but does anybody have experience with their engagement?

“at worst, it shook public confidence in his capacity to take on his new appointment.”

Well, to begin with, how many people have confidence in the NMP thingy? and if such is the case, you can’t really shook public confidence when it is not prominent?

“denting the credibility of YP as a youth-worthy organisation”

Again, i doubt the dent will be visible since the dent is already so deep….hey, in fact, you have to thank him for bringing YP into the spotlight….if it was not for him, people in TOC won’t even bother about YP…so be grateful for the exposure…

“shows no sensitivity or respect to thousands of us”

Well, again, since we didn’t see sensitivity shown during the Dr Lily Neo Fiasco, so you shouldn’t hope to much for reciprocal…sometimes, things such as sensitivity and respect goes in cycle…and what goes around comes around

and lastly, I like the way Ms Elaina Olivia Chong use “learnt exponentially from these recent weeks” it sounds “impressive” but….hahaha….woa, a chain reaction from this fiasco ;-) nice

“I like you (because I need you to speak up for me) but I like you not (you are just another clown).

Remind me of Taiwan Serials where couples always
Love you but love you not
Hate you but hate you not
Leave you but leave you not
Goodbye you but goodbye you not.

The art of communication or communication not.

YP?! Yuppy lah on July 21st, 2009 2.23 pm :)

Your quote is worth repeating… especially

“denting the credibility of YP as a youth-worthy organisation”

Again, i doubt the dent will be visible since the dent is already so deep….hey, in fact, you have to thank him for bringing YP into the spotlight….if it was not for him, people in TOC won’t even bother about YP…so be grateful for the exposure…

this is the kind of double-speak PAP is famous for = bash calvin for slighting yp, yet praise calvin for performance yet seen.

but it’s refreshing to see yp in-fighting.

20) ErniesUrn

I am prepared to get flame by YP supporter! Missile incoming

Good post by Elaina! I think it is a personal decision whether or not for Calvin to attend or collect his card, as much as it’s his decision to indirectly imply that his “success” as a nominated MP did not depend on his application nor participation in the Young PAP (YP).

Same for YP if they should continue extending his membership or not, it’s their personal decision.

You are nice, people are nice. Very simple. (Anyway, “young” also can become “not so young”!) “No results” and you will be out (people will simply stop looking up to him, NMP or not.)

P.S. Good luck Mr. Cheng! I believe even without being in the limelight, NMPs will have a lot of challenges (good and bad)!

Now you know he sucks, can you get rid of him? You can’t, even though he is not endorsed in any way by any Singaporean – except those who want him to walk behind their backsides – of course.

I dont think YP is discredited publicly. If anything and with the correct response it will emerge much stronger. It should be mature enough to tolerate the comments by Calvin. There are so many who like to join the YP. I believe Calvin is honest and sincere in his reply and expressing his thoughts candidly is a good thing. He will emerge stronger I believe in this fray. I also believe that as a strong organisation one should not wallup anybody so quickly just because he expresses his thoughts in a diferent way. Best wishes to both parties.

Calvin should resigned. If he joined YPAP out of curiousity, we will not be sure if he get into parliament out of the same reason?

Please do not occupy unnecessary space in parliament.

I agree with “didyouknoworNOT?” #10. It is nothing but the springboard to million dollars salary for some of them but not all. Members have its privileges.

Digging his own grave.

What next?

He went to Oxford Brookes Uni? Strange that he said he went to Oxford.

Oxford Uni grads usually say they are from XX college, Oxford.

looks like time is ripe to divide & conquer.

Pappies have the numbers, but there is a split among the ranks. does anyone know who belongs to which faction?

its quite clear actually, when words like needing a minority MP to speak on behalf of the minority race. shows how little trust the racially different MPs view each other.

:)

Ms Elaina Olivia Chong

You won’t go far.

A clown like Calvin cannot discredit YP. You shld have said that “He was irresponsible to waste everybody’s time (including his own) by joining then refusing to pick up his card. Shld such an irresponsible person be allowed to become an NMP?”

Hi Gilbert

Your comment is a hit on the nail. That is the crux of our problem. The ruling elite tends to choose the people from the “upper class” who know little about the real sufferings of the “lower class” people.

Our social polarization is not just between the haves and the have nots, but the gap between the elite and the commoners is rapidly widening. This will create great social tension. The ruling elite is planting a social time bomb without even realising it. It makes me very worry.

Do we all know what YPAP do? Does it benefit the community
or their political masters?
both she and Calvin are the suck fish of the human species
if know what I mean

I agree with Gibert and Concerned…

Countries like Taiwan and even Hong Kong have politicians from the lowly commoners….We need politicians who understand poverty and suffering 1st hand. Not SxxT like this Cheng garbage… He clearly DOES NOT understand his role and DOES NOT wish to contribute.

Oxford somemore…..pah….It is not important even if the NMP graduated from ITE or primary school, it is a sense of social responsibility that we want.

On a second thought, I wont mind joining YPAP, if Ms Chong looks exactly like what the photo above had portrayed.

Anyway here’s their website:
http://www.youngpap.org.sg/

35) XIIIblackcat

But HC is also there leh. You may lose you appetite.: )

Having know Mr Cheng during his Hwa Chong JC days…I was not impressed with this lad. His nonchalant attitude towards quitting YPAP personified the same character 17 years ago. He is an intelligent person nonetheless. That said, given he was well recognised during the WEF….one brownie point there…and since he’s accepted the nomination as a NMP, let’s all (as citizens) see if he can DO SOMETHING for the country besides just talking. Talk is cheap. Save on the rebuttal to the papers. DO SOMETHING.

Hi (23) kelly,
“… it’s his decision to indirectly imply that his “success” as a nominated MP did not depend on his application nor participation in the Young PAP (YP).”

Good deduction.

So why should the rest of the “thousands” of YP offer their “time, resources and commitment to the party and the good work” (which all of us still wondering what they have done)? Then the YP shd start questioning the rationale of choosing Cheng as NMP and if they have joined the right party.

Hey YOU ARE TRICKED!!

See XIIIblackcat http://en-gb.facebook.com/elaina.o.chong
She looks terrible….I wondered what happened in between the 2 photos. Maybe she went to Korea….

You can see Calvin Cheng (http://www.facebook.com/calvinzheng?ref=sgm) trash on her list of friends…..they are kakees….so she must speak up for him mah

34) Bitter Singaporean

Indeed that is something seriously lacking in SG. Of the 81, a good proportion should be commoners to feed the views of the people. The other “smarties” can do the work to formulate and implement policies as desired by the people when they hear what we want thru the commoners’ reps.

39) Sang Nila

Maybe she use the same plastic surgeon as MJ : )

Thanks Sang Nila for your insider. I shall took back my words about joining YPAP.

WP Youth Wing on the other hand looks promising though, can consider joining it.
http://www.wpyouth.sg/youth/

I just hope that any politically inclined people such as these 2 really put the people and not any other entities 1st, including themselves.

How can they prove to be unbiased? This is my concern.

33) lee on July 21st, 2009 6.46 pm
Do we all know what YPAP do? Does it benefit the community
or their political masters?

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

To be honest, I have totally no idea. I have not seen them in any activites for some reason or another. nor have i ever been involved with them.

hey YP, come and engage me can or not? I like to see what you are made of.

Now you can see the rot is starting to decay from the inside.Be prepared to see the breaking up of the camp when some of them finally realised they’ve been tricked into joining the camp with all kinds of sweet candies offered to them just to create a smoke screen for the mastermind behind.

1) Having joined YPAP out of curiosity and did nothing at all certainly didn’t sound damaging to me. I am wondering if this article is her personal opinion or YPAP’s opinion.
2) Perhaps Ms Chong should question the NMP select committee on the criteria of choosing NMP.

at least Ms Chong got the guts to publish her opinion on newspaper…you guys here only know how to hide behind your little nickname and post comments against her. So don’t talk too much. She is already one up on you !

YPAP never had the confidence of the public in the first place.

47) wahlaueh

Come on, before you make such a comment,did you even consider and think *i doubt so* that the newspaper will publish things that doesn’t sound good at YP? so the logic here is simple, why waste the effort to fight a futile war. either a) save your energy for later or b) bring the fight to your own ground….ya-ha

Apek….if you are seeing this, this is what i mean…

Elaina Olivia Chong,
Instead of questioning and doubting Calvin Cheng’s sincerity, you should have questioned and scrutinised the high-ranking gahmen who support Calvin Cheng to become NMP. Calvin Cheng will not have become NMP without the support of his seniors, and if you doubt Calvin Cheng, you should doubt those behind him and the system of selection even more. The fact that you fail to question it amidst of your intelligence only show that it is nothing more than a wayang. So why rise the issue if the citizens are more likely to perceive your letter as wayang ?

Sang Nila, Sorry about this, i am not trying to sound ethical or what….but maybe we should avoid poking fun in that sense, especially with regards to looks and what they can do in SK…

We are above that *at least i think so* if not, some supporter of theirs will start accusing us of this and that

and with regards to the difference in the 2 image, well, maybe it is the photographers skills? or maybe it is the pespective/angle/size as we can’t see clearly in a small picture ;-)

47) wahlaueh

Is your surname Mr Wah??? and your name is Lau Eh??? or just that wahlaueh of yours is also a “nickname” ?

“at least Ms Chong got the guts to publish her opinion on newspaper”
Yes, but is she choosing the wrong target or is she just playing safe ?

50) Daniel

Very true…if somebody who shouldn’t be selected get selected in, not only must we question that person but we also need to question the selection committee on why is that so? didn’t they know this person is like this…

Yet Her Highness didn’t…is that one-sided? selective perception?

Just an observation about YPAP. How many of our current MPs and ministers are recruited from the youth wing of their own party?

Ever since the last discussion in ypap blog, I do not really like Ms Elaina Olivia Chong. She knows nothing about the people and what the people are thinking. I saw her work in the forum (i think). I do not even bother to read it.

Thanks for your response Creducator! Like many, I have no idea what the YP do!! What do they do….exactly?

Since both Elaina is on good terms with Calvin Cheng, may be they are just using this for more publicity…who knows? “Bad publicity is better than none.”

Will we see Mr. Cheng act like Paris Hilton…oh so elite? We can only “wait and watch”! Qualification are NOTHING without good intentions.

They have ‘fu chi xiang’,

meaning

‘made for each other’

to be ‘husband and wife’.

Looks very matching.

Btw, “youth-worthy”…..does the YP use Botox or what? So…YP is a mild warning that Lau Kok Kok and Auntie Uncles don’t have to think themselves of potential NMP material anymore?

Anyway, I am not really upset by all these. If Mr. Cheng is capable, he will prove it. If he can’t, we will know later.

I think you’ve sounded out a very good and valid point; why aren’t there any NMPs representing the oft-marginalised and oft-discriminated older citizens? Surely there must be a need for the voices of the senior citizens to be represented as well. That’s why I keep saying this NMP thingie is nothing but a sham and a political ploy.

Forget this Cheng clown. This sort of people can only be seen with a stack of toilet papers in their hands, ever-ready to wipe the ar**es of the people they look up to.

Since Cheng has been made NMP, let see how he takes his job seriously by his performance in Parliament. I think this fiasco is not only a pre-mature evaluation of his performance, but also symptomatic of the divide between the Ruling Class and the Proletariat of Singapore.

Recently, the Law Ministry is pushing for some obscene legislation to give the Law Minister wide powers to bar / disbar lawyers. This will further discourage lawyers to represent activist and opposition politicians in Court, at the same time also discourage lawyers from doing crazy things such as converting a secular organisation into a religious one.

Will NMP Cheng speak out against this oppressive legislative move?

he sounds like he does not care much about anything…. typical singaporean
she sounds like a spurned spitting cobra hissing at her mate…..also typical Singaporean.

But seriously, I would like to know what Young PAP does and what it has done to justify the bouquets from miss Elaina.

This whole episode stinks of a wayang show! As Sang Nila has pointed out, they are FB Friends and she has also implicitly praised Calvin saying that his performance will be stellar. So is this another Flip Flop ala the Temasek holdings fiasco?

Reading the last few lines of Elaina’s article makes me wonder whether Elaina has contradicted herself.

She criticized Calvin Cheng in earlier parts of her article with comments, for example:
“Having said that, I wonder if Mr Cheng is aware of the damage he has done, by denting the credibility of YP as a youth-worthy organisation.”
“As a card-carrying member of YP since 2004 and now a volunteer on the YP exco, I am saddened that my soon-to- be voice in Parliament shows no sensitivity or respect to thousands of us who offer our time, resources and commitment to the party and the good work it does.”
“…Without any knowledge or basis, he has discredited YP publicly as something he cannot be bothered with. What other statements will he make in future as he does not seem to do his homework before he speaks.”

But she ended up saying: “Nevertheless, I have faith that he has learnt exponentially from these recent weeks. I am confident his performance in his new appointment will be no less than stellar.”

What exactly was Elaina trying to say?

Authors of posts #6, #16 and #21 seem to have noticed the inconsistencies in Elaina’s message relating to her criticism of Calvin.

YPAP are potential GRC candidates, they are eager to score points to please their master

They have no spines, no courage, not representing majority of singaporean, don’t count on them in a crisis they would migrate.

They go for fame, go for ladders to climb whatever it takes

“What exactly was Elaina trying to say?”

It is just a way of communication that says negative thing first but yet have to say positive thing at the end to make it look balance. After all the yin and yang must counter each other to ensure harmony and balance. That is the art of communication, and no surprise she works in Kaiiten Communications http://www.kaiiten.com/ … The PR communication company.

Example.
You are fart-up and useless. You are good-for-nothing. You are only a puppet.
But nonetheless you are one talented person with potential to be stellar. I’m looking forward to your good performance in coming months.

As a girlfriend, you are fat and ugly with big ass. Somemore wear glasses and look like turtle. But nevertheless, you are still the one I love eternally regardless of imperfection. The truly one and only aside from Sony.

See how it lesser the negativism at the end. Call it wayang if you must, this is after all the art of communication.

On second thought, I wonder if this is deliberate reverse ploy to boost NMP Cheng’s credibility as a non-partisan voice. Seriously, YPAP has nothing to loose for NMP Cheng to dissociate himself from YPAP since YPAP derived its credibility from its parent political party’s status as the ruling party of Singapore. Both Cheng and Elaine are khakis after all.

Poke your backside, poke my backside. Very painful. But the show must go on.

I’m pretty sure that isn’t good PR effort at work. It will undermine the message (if any), even further. ;)

@60) gemami on July 22nd, 2009 7.55 am

Seriously, the older generations are seen as past their usefulness, hence they are “encouraged” to retire in JB. If focus is on them, then question of elderly health care will always crop up, something U don’t want as it means diverting funds for TH to invest. So, the emphasis is on the “youths” — YOG, Olympics, climbing Mt. Everest, break all kinds of records, etc. Yeah, feel the vibrant mood…get the drift? After all, the ruling party only need 30+% of votes for overwhelming majority in parliament, so why bother to chase the “oldies”? Easier to brainwash the young, unlike old dogs like “the forgotton generation”.

“THE nine new Nominated Members of Parliament (NMPs) were sworn in on Monday afternoon in Parliament to begin a 2 1/2-year term. ”

Sociologist and Associate Professor, Paulin Tay Straughan, 46.
Entrepreneur, Calvin Cheng, 33,
Veteran unionist, Terry Lee, 57,
Ernst & Young Advisory managing director, Mildred Tan-Sim Beng Mei, 50,
Shipping industry veteran Teo Siong Seng, 54.
Media consultancy boss, Viswa Sadasivan, 49,
Presbyterian Community Services executive director, Laurence Wee, 63,
Arts manager, Audrey Wong, 41,
Former national swimmer, Joscelin Yeo, 30, who is now a church executive,

source – http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking+News/Singapore/Story/STIStory_405707.html

Does anyone know what were the selection criteria?

Even Joscelin was in. Looks like the purpose of the NMP scheme is to show that every Singaporeans are being represented from various industries/sectors,
including sports, and different age group (30 – 63). So for this reason, no need to have oppositions?

“THE nine new Nominated Members of Parliament (NMPs) were sworn in on Monday afternoon in Parliament to begin a 2 1/2-year term. ”

When and where is their hip-hop party ?

Don’t despair, Elaina Chong and YPAP are not representative of the majority of our young people. The number of memberships in YPAP is the clue and also how many members are like Cheng who signed up but never active.

I have to say I agree with netizens that it is more productive for Elaina and YPAP to direct many of the obvious and compelling questions to their political masters.
Because there is so much to ask, so much truth to seek. Not doing so, says a lot about you Elaina and your YPAP. Time you do some soul searching.

Hi Creducator,

What’s certain is that industry representation far outweighs the representation of the Proletariat.

It is a family affair in YPAP, it is like a young couple squabbling in public, however, how their squabblings attracted so much attention is beyond understanding.

Nominated Member of Parliament as a system is a farce and a ploy that undermine true Electoral System in which parliamentarians are elected(voted in) by the people. Having the Government of the Day to choose their parliamentarians without the consent and concurrence of the electorates just don’t feel right.

We did and do have NMPs that hardly speak at Parliament Meetings and if they did speak, their speeches are inconsequential to the public. They(NMPs) do not have to meet the people and not assign any political responsibilty, can hold a personal carreer and collect big fat remunerations for the APPOINTMENTS(of NMP).

The Citizens of Singapore DO NOT NEED ANY NMP ! !

its plain political jealousy from Ms Elaina Olivia Ong lah, “he got there 1st?!! how can?!! i work so hard at YPAP, where is the meritocrazy?!!”

fume & fume, cannot tahan, write to Straits Times….

^.^

@71) creducator on July 22nd, 2009 12.58 pm

From the list, I guess MM Lee would also qualify should he happened to give up MM post. A one-in-all, representing all ages and interest groups. Look, already got 5 of 9 of their votes.

71) creducator

Yes, the various industry/sector are been represented….but sadly, are the common people been represented?

hi SZ,

represent got no use can talk but no power to effect any change. most (if not all) officialdom’s decisions (that affects the common folks) all cast in stone wan. :(

HI Mice Is Nice at #79. I used to think that too but now I changed my mind. I spoke up to the MOH asking if why the consideration to mandate Gardasil when it has ruined lives of girls in UK and USA. My queries were heard via REACH (Facebook forum).

A few days ago, Dr. Khaw suggested in parliament not to make vaccines mandatory – although he did not say whether he meant all vaccines or just a few. I hope his suggestion will be taken seriously because safety of H1N1 vaccine (coming soon) is quite questionable.

hi Kelly,

//// I used to think that too but now I changed my mind. I spoke up to the MOH asking if why the consideration to mandate Gardasil when it has ruined lives of girls in UK and USA. My queries were heard via REACH (Facebook forum).////

interesting point, so why even need NMPs? 8)

Hi again MICE, not everyone is online nor pc-literate to use online medium like REACH. I got “bashed up” by those with interests of their own to protect (in the forum) over my protests for GMO foods and vaccines, but still, this will not stop me from talking, especially when I have the info to back up what I am saying. As a result, AVA, is looking into possibility of regulating GMO foods.

There’s no guarantee (for change of regulations, policies, etc) but at least people around are more aware.

NMPs, are good at serving the ‘lost’ as well as those who are not sure what to write. A letter from NMP make people sit up, but not always effective. I remember one who helped to write for the early release of her son. The request although written by the NMP was not acceded due to the seriousness of crime committed by the woman’s son.

We can push for changes in other ways and the internet is a great media for that, not justthe NMPs.

Most of you are not fair to YP. Like you I was a skeptic, so like Calvin Cheng, i wanted to go to the MPS to observe. I wanted to blog about the fake and pretentious of this YP. But, I would never imagine what was to expect. The YPactivists(that is what they call themselves) welcomed me and answered my very skeptical questions. I find sincerity in their answers and what they are doing, listening to the problems of the residents, writing letters of appeal for them, follwoing up on these residents. I also join them on distributing ration to the one room flat needy residents. It has been about 2 and half months and I also got to meet Ser Luck(he said we can call him by name). He is cool and a real leader. As an active contributor and reader of TOC, you can call me traitor or what, but i joined YP last week. Thought I had to write this. To me, YP is doing the real work.

P.S. My comments on NMPs are general. Personally, I take each NMP as an individual and do not stereotype them as one group. May be people are starting to see they’re not all the same birds in one flock.

Lim Xin, I can only say public majority lack awareness for this (including me). High time I check out their website. Thanks!

83) Lim Xin

A suggestion, Perhaps the TOC team can join and cover what you YP have done so that it will reduce the skeptic in us…This is a good chance as having coverage will work more then just words…so which area did u visit to distribute rations?

Oh, pardon me for my poor memory, but did u contribute using other nick? as Lim Xin is non-existent in my memory

is it just me or do i see some bait being thrown in here?

49) SZ

Noted

83) Lim Xin

I think I would give you the opportunity to share your view and experience. I too belief in being inside to see things for myself before condemning anything, which I think is only fair.

But I have learned that starting a post with “Most of you are not fair to YP” will not goes down well with posters, as it is a generic and blanket statement. And you can’t prove that.

I do hope that you will be able to share with us your unique experience, and no one here will be any less informed by hearing her out.

///TOC, you can call me traitor ////

as long as it is done in the interest of the country, in good faith, with good intend, nobody should be branded a traitor
each has his/her own way of doing his part for society

sadlyt I see some hold the view that there are only 2 homogenous groups
“them and us”

not everyone in the gahmen is crappy,
not everyone who are against the gahmen is also crappy

it’s get difficult to be rational when we lump things together this way

that’s my personal point of view

a mindless puppet telling a joker how to wipe his A S S.

hi Kelly,

////not everyone is online nor pc-literate to use online medium like REACH.////

true la, but at what cost? also, having NMPs does not mean certain interest is served. isn’t that the core issue of this article? how Mr Calvin Cheng got selected, his reason to be an NMP. to serve the people, S’poreans in general. but the kind of reply give people what kind of impression? lol…. :(

////We can push for changes in other ways and the internet is a great media for that, not just the NMPs.////

agree, internet is a great media platform & rather cost effective too!! ;)

I agree with KopitiamApek. That’s why I want to find out everything about YP first. And then decide myself if they are really doing good.

Right now, the website youngpap.org only has PAP activists. I have a feeling non-PAP activists with no leanings to any party, do not qualify to have their ideas or comments sound on the site. If so, that defeats the purpose of their PR!

Also something lacking in its Editorial – “Health” and “Parenting” (may be falls under the very broad “Society”?)

#92 @Mice I understand you! He will get “hellava” when people see he isn’t doing anything much. All that “talk” he gave did little for anyone, including himself.

That is why I am not so worried about his i-can’t-be-bothered attitude. He will reap what he sow!

If you think NMPs are not gonna help you, seek other alternatives and ask around online and here! Sure have helpful people to suggest what you can do 1! For now, I give REACH 7 upon 10, for being successful in passing my queries to the govt. Ratings may change according to changes in “service” etc. lol

The subtlety of the government machinery at work. Here we are talking about an NMP who comes from the ranks of the YP, and suddenly the topic shifts to the role of the YP. Some are now hailing the role being played by the YP in areas that reach out to the people. Some are equating the government’s feedback portal, Reach, as a YP tool. Some are even calling for the people to understand the role of the YP. How strange!

Is the YP the government of Singapore? Is an NMP the true representative of the voice of Singaporeans? Where does he gets his mandate to represent the people from? Have the people been consulted during the nomination and selection process? Has any of the common citizens been asked to evaluate the slate of potential NMPs being put up for selection? Has there been a vote from the people whether they want such a scheme in the first place? More importantly, what has the roles of NMP (and NCMP for that matter) reduced the role of the elected-MP into?

We go to the polls every 4 to 5 years to cast our votes on the politicians we want as representatives of our voices. These elected-MPs have been, for years, been only interested in advancing the cause of the Nation more than it should the people. They are now even pushing the role of caring for the people to NMPs and movements like YP. This is devaluing the power of our vote while at the same time making cuckolds of the people of Singapore.

Thieves in a den can also proclaim the goodness of its members. However, the fact remains that it is a den of theives.

“As an active contributor and reader of TOC….“: Lim Xin.

Have never come across any of yoru contribution in TOC. Care to show us where they are?

Hi Gemami! Never thought of REACH as a YP tool but it’s close! In one post, they asked for YOUNG leaders. (No one stepped up!) Not sure if they were actually referring to the YP but it could be!

I think YP and Reach keep track of what each other are doing but both are quite seperate in their functions. REACH is only a mediator (and “poller”) between citizens and govt bodies. REACH does not seem to be doing what YP does (if what Lim Xin said is correct), YP gets involved with almost everything including helping to spread food rations.

Common sense tells me YP is not THAT active in spreading food rations, charities are!

P.S. Sorry – I have yet to see “stuff” from YP. In order for people to know or appreciate what YP does, I think they would need to do more! None in my family is aware or heard of YP. Neither do 95% of my friends.

@83) Lim Xin on July 22nd, 2009 11.50 pm

Lim Xin,

I am sorry but the first impression I have of your narrative is that from a Nazi or Communist youth wing journal. Don’t want to be termed a racist, but perhaps YPAP could highlight some significant contributions to the common populace. Kissing babies, distributing goodies, etc.. see ST recently that there are there are at least 80-100 VMOs out there, some I know also not listed, YPAP also not listed by MSM. Being associated with PAP, a bigger visibility of YPAP works would be expected, but even AWARE has bigger limelight representing LBGTs.

Of course I could be wrong.There are some quiet individuals/groups out there doing some real good without seeing need to blow trumpets.

“…He is cool and a real leader. ”

Do you greet each other with the Sieg Heil, sort of youth worship? Sorry, racist again of me. On this point, I really disagree with you – looks “elite” to me.

Mr Apek,

I guess for our case, the worse form of error in perception has occured, from selective perception, halo and contrast effect and stereotyping…

and I do agree with you. people who start off like that usually gets intro trouble..

Hi (83) Lim Xin,

What you have described sounded a little like churches. I said “a little” because churches do more than that. Not only they will welcome you with open arms but they do charities in sg and in 3rd world countries regularly for years. And all these good works are self-sponsored, not sponsored by tax-payers money.

Sorry that I have to bring up this comparison in order to show you that charity must be genuine, not having any ulterior motives to be in the good book of the ruling party. If doing those things you mentioned means YP members deserve to be MP or NMP, then those Christians should deserve even more.

I believe most our expectation of a good politician is not only one with a good character and good heart, but one who is courageous and willing to stand up for justice for the people of sg.

You can give or do things without love or compassion. But you can’t love or have compassion without giving or doing anything. You can be super smart or rich, but without love and care you will be doing all the good works for self glorification.

Well-said Creducator! And Good Morning to you!

101) creducator

Well, what you have said is just like the story of Damo:

Damo visited the Emperor Wu.The emperor asked Bodhidharma, “What is the highest meaning of noble truth?” Bodhidharma answered, “There is no noble truth.” The emperor then asked Bodhidharma, “Who is standing before me?” Bodhidharma answered, “I know not.” The emperor then asked Bodhidharma, “How much karmic merit have I earned by ordaining Buddhist monks, building monasteries, having sutras copied, and commissioning Buddha images?” Bodhidharma answered, “None.”

As doing merits and showing off/asking for return seems to cancel out one another

To (83) Lim Xin,

YPAP is an association for PAP to groom the next generation leaders. As leaders, you have to made hard decisions; e.g. keeping cost down vs wage depression; ageing population vs import of foreign talents/workers; GDP vs lower standard of living; etc

If you have been an active TOC reader, care to ask MP Teo Ser Luck some of the real issues you have read in TOC? Then come back to tell us that you’re convinced because policy A has helped the betterment of SG populace, etc. More importantly, I would touch on issues such as basic Human rights, accountability and transparency, etc.

“I also join them on distributing ration to the one room flat needy residents. ”
If you definition of real leaders simply confine to charity activities; then I rest my case.

hi Kelly,

post #94 on July 23rd, 2009 1.28 am

//// I understand you! He will get “hellava” when people see he isn’t doing anything much. All that “talk” he gave did little for anyone, including himself. ////

will he get “hellava”? any examples of that kind of accountability? the selection process so not transparent, the fact that such people is selected to be the voice of people really is questionable.

////That is why I am not so worried about his i-can’t-be-bothered attitude. He will reap what he sow!////

you not worried i worried, taxpayers money is used here, & who can really guarantee he will be held accountable?

////If you think NMPs are not gonna help you, seek other alternatives and ask around online and here!////

maybe should make such useless NMPs to leave the post. :P

I am glad some of you asked these questions. If you could bear with me, I don’t mind sharing more. I have posted comments using another nickname but decided that for the previous post I would use my name to say something that is a fact. The place where i distributed ration were two locations. One in Ang Mo Kio and the other near old airport road. They are rental flats. YP has a programme on this. That is how it started. I know that no matter what I say, I would not be able to convince all. Thats ok, at least I tried to say what is real.The best way is to experience it yourself. So far, the YP I know, tries to do many things, maybe too many, help others, new media, etc but they don’t promote or market it. I think this is the weakness in the political space and internet. Maybe everyone is just too busy. I have asked YP leaders very sharp questions about do they know the plight of the people and what are they doing about it. The response was simple but it touched me. It goes something like, we can’t solve all the problems in the world, but we must always do our best for our people eventhough it may not be enough to impress or convince everyone. Most important is to convince yourself that you are doing the right things for the people around you. YP and Ser Luck are real change agents. They really speak up, walk the talk, challenge status quo just that it may not be in public or covered by the press. The sense I get is they don’t believed in scoring public political points. But it wasnt only that which make me decide to join, it was seeing everyone putting in that extra effort to do something and going out of the way to do something worthwhile. Such as one where the children were stuyding along the corridor as their father gambled all the money away. The YP guys I am with stepped in to help and brought the family back on track. I would be the first to admit using hokkien vulgarity on the govt and strong advocate on transparency and all. But let me just say, I have never felt more satisfied going to the ground and helping these needy people. Leader or not, it was worth it. The group that was with me week after week these months, believing and doing the same thing, was YP or the other branch activists. Yes, they are not perfect and I am still not satisfied with some of the slowness and some YP members who are a pain in the axx and sucking up. But the majority are people I would work with. This may not go down well with some of you. But I thought it would be better for me to tell it as it is.

106) Lim Xin

Pardon me for my skepticism but perhaps you can tell us what was your previous nick? we are curious to know what was your previous contribution. Although you
said that you have contributed in the past, but it is still evasive and you still haven’t answer our question by telling us your original nick. and we are dying to know what was your previous post like and how it has change, so please do us the honor…

although you said you have posted in the past, but i can’t recognize your style

lastly, I hope you YP will be successful in implement change and not part of NATO

Hi Lim Xin (#106) Thanks for taking time to reply. It’s good to tell it as it is.

I am just wondering why YP did not take advantage of posting pics or videos of the work done. Not many people know of this. You mentioned you worked with them…are you a staff or volunteer or ….? (Sorry I do get lost in a mass of comments sometimes! >,< )

There's also nothing much under "upcoming events" on the site. May be you can suggest a change in the website – just to keep public more informed of what YP really do.

Like SZ and many others, I also hope YP has its OWN VOICE, OWN MIND, OWN IDEAS or else it would not be making much of a good difference to what we already have (the quality of life, etc).

Hi Lim Xim,

Are you and YPAP trying to discredit TOC by claiming YPAP and TOC are on the same side?

correction… “If YP can’t do this, then it’s no point telling us that your members are doing charity using our money.”

[...] reference to this http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/07/new-nmp-has-discredited-yp-publicly-says-exco-member/, it obviously brings YoungPAP into the spotlight. And yes… I am aware of some agitation from [...]

Hi MICE IS NICE “Hellava” is not from the government – is from us. Your voice, the people’s voice, will be the harsher voice, more so than the few NMPs’.

“The fact that such people is selected to be the voice of people really is questionable.”

Indeed it is. But is there a way for “re-dress” or to correct this? I don’t think so.

“you not worried i worried, taxpayers money is used here, & who can really guarantee he will be held accountable?”

Good point. But like I said, who is accountable for having “useless or worthless NMPs” in place? Can we get our income tax back? No? So…what do you think we should do besides making people see how mad we are at a “useless NMP” besides “worrying”?

“maybe should make such useless NMPs to leave the post. :P ”

Like I said, it’s your voice (our voices) that will “do the work”. If someone has slapped you, you have the choice to either slap back, or take the person to court. Which option would you take?

I have not seen much of what both YP and Mr. Cheng have done. Even the YP site has left much to be desired.

Hi Lim Xin, you have said it as it is – thanks but I do have some questions to ask because I don’t understand some things.

May I know Lim Xin, who covers for your transport when YP does the charity work (some people mentioned using citizen’s income tax)? Are you one of the members, staff or volunteer since you said you “worked with them”?

I am afraid there’ nothing much of the YP website to tell me what you did recently! The goals of YP are quite blurred if you are saying that YP distributes food ration to needy. I have seen food rations myself (as an ex-volunteer) – rice has bugs. Canned foods maybe expiring the next month and so on. Sugar and oil are ok. And if I don’t remember wrongly, a lot of such food rations are donated by food suppliers, our citizens. while a smaller portion come from private families and individuals.

P.S. eg. Food suppliers like Sheng Shiong, bakery shops, etc.

Lim Xin,

As already brought up by SZ, care to tell us your previous nicks and point to us your contributions at TOC. We shall be expecting two answers here.

I am glad that you have found your purpose in YP (or YPAP) and I don’t think anyone will begrudge you the choice you have made. However, to some of us, and as far as most of us have been made to believe, the role of the YPAP is primarily to give those who subscribe to the PAP’s mode of governance a chance, to show their leadership qualities so that they can be identified to represent the PAP in its leadership-succession renewals.

To be able to do this, anyone who aspires to be a leader, with the hope of leading the country in the future, has to be able to go beyond the task of doing charitable deeds, which addresses the problem and not the cause; but; to be able to address the cause and fight to correct the causes that are doing these poor folks in.

It is for this reason that I question Calvin’s intention in joining the YP and then doing nothing whilst being a member there. If he had done nothing of note there, then what makes you so sure that he will be an effective NMP? He has the aspiration to be an NMP, he has the opportunity as a YP member to ‘sharpen his saw’, so to speak, but he allowed it to go to waste. He had the chance to ask the government the hard questions to address the causes that resulted in the need to have organizations like the YP to reach out to the poor folks who are left behind in many areas in life.

So now you argue, that the YP has been doing some great jobs. But the fact remains that this Calvin chap did nothing to contribute to this goodness. He is basically using the ‘good name’ of the YP to advance his own aspiration to be an NMP. Is this not questionable?

He kept going on about giving a voice to the people, but didn’t you read in yesterday’s Shitty Times, in his reply to Elaina, that he hopes to be ‘her voice’? There you have it. It will be the PAP’s voice – disguised in the NMP.

“Most important is to convince yourself that you are doing the right things for the people around you …”

HO Ching is convinced that losing almost $60M is money well-spent and is the right thing for the people around her.
The government is convinced that losing $60M merited a National Day award for her, and is the right thing for the people around them.
The government is convinced that Opposition citizens (those who voted for the Opposition) do not deserve the same privileges accorded to PAP citizens (those who voted for the PAP), and is the right thing to do.
I am convinced that the YP is another tool being used by the PAP to fool citizens that needs to be exposed for what it is, and is the right thing to do for every citizen.

Do you not see that some people are overly convinced, so much so that it becomes detrimental to others?

I beseech you to look at the root cause of the problems and question yourself whether they can be solved. Hand to mouth solutions will not remove the problems. If you cannot convince yourself of this, then you will only be prolonging the agony of the people you think you are helping.

Dear Lim Xin,

A word of advice for you, my friend…been evasive here and giving vague answers won’t help your point…in fact it will only make the situation here by creating doubts about your credibility…

Look at the way our leaders has been evasive about the fiasco, that just act as a trigger for more scrutiny

To Lim Xin,

It’s wonderful for you to share with us on what YPAP has done. Please do keep the good work. Singapore needs help and we should contribute in any way we can if it’s ever possible. I applause your willingness to help the less-priviledged.

However, do keep us posted of your view again after you keep doing the same thing a 100th times (I bet it no longer becomes a novelty). The reason is because I hope you will be able to start questioning why the same thing happens over and over again? Can it be avoided, etc; and you will definitely be able to draw a better conclusion.

Objectivity is the key.

PS: I don’t think Hilter intends to exterminate the Jews as well. It just happens. – Hope you get the drift.

@106) Lim Xin on July 23rd, 2009 6.39 pm

Oh wow, a chapter from 12th SS Panzer Division ‘Hitlerjugend’ diary. These fanatics really believed in their cause, fighting, bleeding, dying. Their comradeship & discipine are truly awesome … so are their atrocities. Funny, the survivors nowaday recalled with pride their soldiering days, of their achievements (which are really notable in military sense) but are silence on atrocities – “…something that must happened for the overall scheme of things.” Their adored leader, ‘PanzerMeyer’, will make TSL look like mickey mouse if the yardstick is “…cool and real leadership”.

Per said, hope this is not a case of youth worship for Lim Xin. Anyway, one man’s meat is another man’s poison. We are free men/women, right? Appreciate if Lim Xin could ask hero TSL how come (from other TOC topic posted) 44% of people don’t get to vote in elections, 34% voted opposition, but PAP still has 98% seats. Or GST raised by 40% to fund things like TH’s investments while some in our society will be pushed into the fringes? Not important questions? Here’s a bag of goodies, go distribute to the needy in AMK & don’t ask stupid Q’s. Climb Mt. E, wave national flag and forget $56b burnt. Yes, I am also looking for “…cool and real leader”, as long as the side effects don’t touch me.

@118) Dumb and dumber on July 24th, 2009 2.11 pm

Dumb and dumber,
your mentioning of Hitler and my post @119 about SS is purely coincidental. Let it be known no one is leading another’s lead. Nor am I pro-Nazis!

On your drift, blutchering children after the head count reached two does justify the end to some people years back. Of course, we are famous for U-turns without blinking eyes. Now, more FTs/FWs even better.

hi Kelly,

post #113 on July 24th, 2009 1.56 am

////Hi MICE IS NICE “Hellava” is not from the government – is from us. Your voice, the people’s voice, will be the harsher voice, more so than the few NMPs’.////

really, but he even hear the hellava?

////Good point. But like I said, who is accountable for having “useless or worthless NMPs” in place? Can we get our income tax back? No? So…what do you think we should do besides making people see how mad we are at a “useless NMP” besides “worrying”?////

true loh, cannot that is why can only “cow peh”? the public has written to Straits Times on the issue IIRC.

////Like I said, it’s your voice (our voices) that will “do the work”. If someone has slapped you, you have the choice to either slap back, or take the person to court. Which option would you take?////

eh, could use a better example that this.

To 120) theforgottongeneration:

It’s definitely a coincidence. I didn’t even know you’re writing.

What am I trying to say is failure to act when action is required can be just as devastating. As an MP, a representative of the people, failure to speak up, has it’s consequence. It reminds me of the example in the past posts about “speaking up”.

Maybe someone can post it again as a reminder of how “great” evil flourishes not because everyone is evil, but because good people fail to “speak up” against “injustice”.

122) and that reminds of First they came…:

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

Then they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
I did not protest;
I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out for me.

[i]Lim Xin on July 23rd, 2009 6.39 pm I am glad some of you asked these questions. If you could bear with me, I don’t mind sharing more. I have posted comments using another nickname but decided that for the previous post I would use my name to say something that is a fact. [/i]

i don’t know you @ all
even though i been BANNED under ALL the above nicks
i know bigcannongking
he is my cartoon adversary

what your ypap nick
for i am sured you would have known me
come on be a sport
iremembered the last time
our prince the prime minister said
he can see a packed mrt from the infamous CTE highway
either he is flyin from a helicopter
or he is watchin a harryporter movies…………..

@122) Dumb and dumber on July 24th, 2009 4.01 pm

Right mate, tha’s why we are on TOC – voicing individual’s concerns.

u can put the pic at the link somewhere at ur blog or website as a reminder:

http://www.thomsonreuters.com/content/corporate/images/news_ideas/tr_vote_ar.jpg

Hi Mice….cow peh blogs are all good – most of the time! And then we can cow peh about the cow peh. It’s quite infectious! :) Sunshine is free and non-taxable so do have a great weekend! I wonder what’s TOC’s next topic – looking forward to read it!

poor lin xin
you tried to paint a pic of YPAP doing good ?

ask a simple question, after 50 yaers of “self-governing”, we have a singapore

1) Top 5% making 80% of total wealth
2) Leaders are making good millions a year to keep good integrity
3) Fulle election reduced to $1M salary a year, while cabbies are struggling with $2,000+ a month with 12 hours on the road
5) new MPs only know how yo echo what the bosses say, do they have mandate ? NO
Do they have souls ? they know well , we hope
6) The nation is run by loyalists, and angmok, or FT, 95% of the common singaporean pay tax to keep the 5% to have luxuarious life
7) A nation with no ideals, no transparency and no check and balance will go down the drain like a demise of dynasty

So, why you talents with hot aspiration wants to join a YPAP to keep the above distortion going ?

Think about it

Posibble scenarios for Change to occur

By “creative destruction” if I may borrow to quote from a fellow poster
at one extreme of the continuum
to total apathy, at the other extreme

when people in power do right, with “creative destruction” , things may get crappy if after “creative destruction” , if what is rebuilt is not as good as before

when people in power do not do right, with “creative destruction” , things may be just crappy if what is rebuilt is as bad as before, things may get better if what is rebuilt is better than before, or things can remain in a permanent state of destruction.

when people in power do right, with total apathy, things still goes on fine
when people in power do not do right, with total apathy, things stayss crappy forever

life is full of hard choices

Possible approach of change agents:

Those who subscribe to “creative destruction” (if I may again borrow to quote from a fellow poster)
at one extreme of the continuum
to those who subscribe in making change from within the system,
at the other extreme

So in one extreme end, we have protesters, opposition figures, etc, who have a noble cause in wanting to change society for the better,
and the other end we have people who have the same noble cause in wanting to change society for the better, but opt to join PAP in the hope to change things from inside.

Is that not impossible that there are such people?
Do reflect on that.

It is noble of such people to join PAP with the hope of trying to change things from inside. But the reality is that such people have to be perpetually conscious they do not end up like the PAP stooges themselves.
It makes more sense to accept the fact the grandmaster of PAP is incorrigible and so is the system he has created.
The clue is found in past and present despots, example Hitler, Sadam, Suharto, Kim, Castro, Burmese junta leaders, Mugabe, etc, etc.
I also do not see the logic of joining loansharks, triads, gang of thieves/ robbers, etc, just to change things from inside. The argument can be extended to corrupt groups of law enforcement personnel, judiciary members, whatever one cares to name.
The evil that some men do is beyond redemption and there is only one outcome for them. In the case of the present PAP, they should be voted out.

131) dealing with incorrigibles

//////I also do not see the logic of joining loansharks, triads, gang of thieves/ robbers, etc, just to change things from inside. The argument can be extended to corrupt groups of law enforcement personnel, judiciary members, whatever one cares to name.////////

I hear and respect your view.
But I hold a less “extreme” (if I may use the term) view. I like to believe that the peope who step in to serve the country are not entirely homogenous in thought and principal, and as such there will be those who wants to work from within.

@KopitiamApek (#132) I fully agree with you. There are people who try to work from “within” because they don’t hold all the same views as PAP.

Personally, I have a slight distaste of working from “within” because I don’t have the qualifications to sit there and take some one else’s credits. lol Have been in civil service before and I know how it is like for a senior colleague to take ALL credits for everything that others (team members) do. When you give credit to others, you are actually thanking them publicly. It says very much more than a private thank you.

I’ve also seen how PAP-powered groups thank gold blood donors (the ‘public’ thank-the-donors ceremonies for the last few years have left much to be desired although no one spoke up!) Again, it’s another bitter aftertaste AFTER a nice cuppa coffee. I intend to feedback before next year’s ceremony. In this instance, should I feedback to YPAP or REACH.gov.sg ?

More and more boards, institutes and what-not may not work if it confuses the public. Remember how people once get confused over town council and area offices for HDB matters?

hi Kelly,

//// I intend to feedback before next year’s ceremony. In this instance, should I feedback to YPAP or REACH.gov.sg ?////

two is one, one is none. feedback to both! ;)

133) kelly

/////////Personally, I have a slight distaste of working from “within” because I don’t have the qualifications to sit there and take some one else’s credits. lol Have been in civil service before and I know how it is like for a senior colleague to take ALL credits for everything that others (team members) do. /////////////

Sorry to read about your bad experience.
This is one aspect of working within any org, public or private. We are going to bump into crappy bosses like this in any workplace.

I would not judge the whole org by the few personal contact I have with, I do not think it is fair to those working in these orgs, pte or public.

Nevertheless, I still hold the view that there are people who try to work from “within” , and the entire govt machinery is not a monolithic pre-programmed group of robot-like employess that have identical thoughts.

That is just not humanly possible in my opinion.

133) kelly

////(the ‘public’ thank-the-donors ceremonies ///////

I thought we only give blood to the blood bank?
Whom did you donate your blood to?

133) kelly

////More and more boards, institutes and what-not may not work if it confuses the public. Remember how people once get confused over town council and area offices for HDB matters?//////

Sorry, Kelly, I can’t connect this to the waht I wrote earlier. Can clarify?

Hi KopitiamApek, now it’s YPAP and REACH.gov.sg Will there be more and more institutes or whatever, and to perform what? Like how people used to be confused with the functions of town councils and HDB area offices, I see that many are still “blur” and have no idea what YPAP and REACH do. Or the differences in the 2. I know for sure REACH is a “messenger” to ministries and other govt-related unions/agencies.

As for the blood donors…let me give you a scenario. For example, you are invited to witness your child receiving some award. You can view from a distance but you CAN’T HEAR what’s going on in the award-giving ceremony. You may be partitioned by GLASS, or you are in another room.

Your child goes on stage to claim his award. You applaud and you are v proud of your child but hey, your child can’t see you because you’re quite a distance away or in a seperate room watching it via a large-screen TV. No sound ar…

After that, the award is taken from him, your child is told it’s a dummy award. NO FURTHER INSTRUCTIONS on where the real award is. After some asking around, you realise your door gift WAS the award.

These past few years, this is the way blood donors are thanked. Family participation is invited but… Sigh… I’d rather they have sent the award by mail if that’s the way they want to show their heart-felt appreciation to blood donors and their families.

Thank you MICE (#134)! Feedback to two and see if each are saying the same things! GREAT IDEA Mice – thanks! ;)

hi Kelly,

you’re welcome. if got anything interesting post an article can? :)

Hi Mice! I sent an article to Andrew of TOC, but I think he didn’t like it. :) I have a video about the Donors’ ceremony though. I am just lazy to edit the needless portion of the video! lol Okie…I see if I have time to do so. Late – good night everyone!

hi Kelly,

no worries, take your time. ;)

Hi KopitiamApek & Kelly,

“There are people who try to work from “within” because they don’t hold all the same views as PAP.” : KopitiamApek & Kelly.

I think we get your drift that there are good people trying to work from within to bring about changes that are for the general good of the citizens and the country. I don’t think anyone can deny that this is possible.

But in this instance, we are talking about ‘taking chances’. Do we take chances with one whom we know is supportive of the government and PAP, or do you think it is better for us to take chances with one who is politically non-partisan?

Like I have mentioned earlier, here is someone who joined the YPAP out of curiosity (how true we do not know), but then does nothing to contribute during his entire time as a YPAP member. I believe it is not curiosity but more of a calculated move to advance himself, using his membership as one of the driving force to get to where he wanted to go.

I might be wrong, but I not only smell something so fishy but also get the feeling that this chap is not upfront and honest about the whole thing. He is trying too hard to show us that he is ‘one of us’ which he is not – while at the same time, giving the PAP the impression that he is one of them too.

What a nice card to play – WIN WIN.

@133) kelly on July 26th, 2009 2.20 pm

“….@KopitiamApek (#132) I fully agree with you. There are people who try to work from “within” because they don’t hold all the same views as PAP. ”

The “from within” concept is really disappointing, from experience, personal observation and reasoning. Isn’t that what the Opposition is parliament is supposed to represents? Or what about president OTC? What happened in either case?

We must have thousands of scholars over the years, and yet we have current situation. What do they do except tweaks things like ERP rates (and writing speeches for our MPs – that I’m sure). Why would they want to rock the boat? Bite the hand that feeds? Why not blow $50K on family on holiday – the system provides them this “capability”. Don’t we always see someone wanting to change the system, but after staying/surviving in the system over the years, such people BECOMES the system. I guess after kissing backsides for so long, anyone would also want their asses to be rubbed too. Example = STTA president – more like “from behind (ie. ass)”.

P.S. Last week ST article on PSC scholars, that they are not looking for “yes-men”, I won’t hold my breath on it.

“I would not judge the whole org by the few personal contact I have with, I do not think it is fair to those working in these orgs, pte or public.”

Lets not mix pte with public. pte is pte and unless pte behaviour is too unduly negative filtering into the public domain, it is none of our business.

You are right that we can’t simply judge too much just bcos of a few personal contacts. But again (when it comes to public matters), that is where transparency & openess about the whole process that a lot of people want to see as it plays a very positive “enlightening part”.

So how does this ‘working within’ fit in ? Robust enough in comparison if the whole matter is subject to strong public scrunity as it should be for serious public issues ?

123) Yamamoto Taicho

Thanks. That’s the one and how true it touches me every time I read it again.

Yes, well said, (123) Yamamoto Taicho.

Hi (123) Dumb and dumber,
Maybe someone can post it again as a reminder of how “great” evil flourishes not because everyone is evil, but because good people fail to “speak up” against “injustice”.

I guess this is the reason why many (especially the younger generation) tend not to speak up on political issues. The young have have lived sheltered lives and thought that they still will be sheltered when they grow older and therefore no need to speak up. The old are too tired to speak up.

Again, thanks to all for your feedback and questions. I have picked some of the questions to answer and sorry to those I have not been able to answer.

I cover for my own transport to such activities and I am a volunteer. Yes, there is more that YP website could do. Understand they are trying to do more. Like me, they are all volunteers and busy working. I know that most them spend week day nights to work on projects. This needs a lot of commitment and energy. I have not reached that level of commitment yet.

The food is donated by shops,companies and yes, individuals. Most of the times, we packed them into the bag the night before or a day before. We work till early morning hours. Quite tiring but worth it. Volunteers like me check on expiriy date and distribute them into different bags.

To me, YP isjust a youth wing of the PAP. We bring our political views to Ministers as there are many dialogues where we have been invited to. It was always a good exchange with them and we get to understand a lot more insights about how these policies came about. I can appreciate why many here have different views. For some, it could be lack of information and others, lack of understanding. For those who are skeptical or refuse to believe, it would always be different difficult to convince and they can have a different view. Everyone is entitle to their views. The vision is to serve and contribute. Recently, YP roll out the mission to embrace, empower and evolve. So manyof the programmes revolves around. We could feel the impact and changes at the ground level where I help out.

What YP believes is to do what we can within our means. I remember my YP chair told us to be understanding. For e.g. if a member is not free and could not come for activity, we would help to cover the graps as best we can. It is the bond and commitment I have seen in these members that got me going so far. Though I must admit I don’t commit as much time and energy.

To Lim Xin,

Keep up the good work. By the way, do you believe the MP(s) you worked with in YP believes in transparency and accountability? That’s the only question I have (no need to mention names).

Hi @theforgottongeneration (#144) You may want to refer to my comment at #144 (my experience of working from ‘within’) which was not pleasant. but it still does not change the fact that there are young adults trying to do the same thing I did years ago. My experience is pretty common not only in civil sectors.

Thanks a lot for your reply Lim Xin. What you’ve done within the YP, is not very much different from what church groups, charities and activists are doing. The only things I note are:

1. Being in YP, you’re PAP-oriented and if you happen to also support the good causes of opposition parties, be prepared to say goodbye to YP (as with the case with Tan Kin Lian).
2. Law stays largely the same. Policies stay largely the same. Meaning: nothing’s changed.

As for accountability of YP, what is YP accountable for? That’s the question. Without even knowing its missions, accountability is quite blurred (at least for me).

Thank you. My MP is very approachable and shares a lot with us. I even sms him whenever I have a question. He also disagrees with some of the policies and I have seen him voice it out with a Minister before. The exchange helped us understand the policy. I am not sure what you mean by accountability of YP. The mission and values is quite flear to me. Question is are they doing it enough for the majority. To me, YP is a platform for me to do what i feel is worth doing and share my views. Are they accountable if I don’t get the chance to do these things ? I mean, I would not join them if the platform is not effective and if they don’t show me they are indeed sincere about making lives better. I know for one, I have managed to get a programme going for talents who need funds through a dialogue with my MP through YP. Another one was to consider the addition of 20 additional parking lots. but has not been approved yet. We can all contribute as long as you find it worthwhile and feel happy doing it. I just decided to start with issues around me to understand better.

For those who resign from the party, Tan Kin Lian or Calvin Cheng, they have their reasons and I stick to mine to join.

143) gemami
144) theforgottongeneration
145) working within
& Kelly

Thank you for your responses.
Happy that you guys generally genrally do agree with my point that there are such people who opt to work from within.
That is the jist of my post.
Agree with 1 & all that whether ‘working within” is effective is deabatable.

I personally feel that having these people in there beats not having nobody there.
When the numbers are small numbers, they will be easily ostracised, and mentally assasinated. When the numbers are substantial, it will make a difference.

When we gun down such people too quickly, we may be doing ourself a disfavour.

Every effort towards the betterment of society is a noble cause and deserves support.

My 2cts worth of thoughts

151) Lim Xin

Some religious groups do social work, but ultimately if you do not become “one of them” they will soon desert you.

Doing social service is a noble thing. But is it is for an ulterior motive, it is not. Social service with a subliminal political intention to sway votes is not noble.

But if YP exists to really garner young views that challenges the current political thoughts towards the betterment of society, then it is good.

So what is YP to you?

153) KopitiamApek,
“I personally feel that having these people in there beats not having nobody there. When the numbers are small numbers, they will be easily ostracised, and mentally assasinated. When the numbers are substantial, it will make a difference.”

I am not too hopeful that the “work from within” strategy will work or is effective. I know of someone who has been doing that since about 20 years ago and still is. But I don’t see much difference, if any. Once I asked him how we may raise issues of serious concern about education to MOE senior management. His reply was that we should email to MOE feedback even though it’s not effective that way. His advice was that we should go and volunteer at the grassroot level then slowly climb up the PAP political ladder to make our voice heard.

154) KopitiamApek,

“Some religious groups do social work, but ultimately if you do not become “one of them” they will soon desert you.”

I am not sure which religious group you are referring to, but I know that for churches, they do charity because they feel that they personally have been helped. In return, they also like to help others as well, not so that people whom they have helped will join them.

Hi Lim Xin, I meant TKL quitted from NTUC Income. When you work in a PAP-oriented organization (like I assume NTUC Income is), it seems one has no choice but to only support PAP (by hook or by crook), especially if it’s an executive of high rank.

If you pay transport for your volunteerism, I guess YPAP organises charity events. So what some people are asking, is it right PAP uses citizens’ money (income tax) to set up YPAP?

Hmmm…okie, may be the other question isn’t so clear. For example, what’s the mission of Peta? YMCA? AWARE? They each have their own missions…and are accountable for the “work” they do. What’s YPAP’s mission?

Like what KopitiamApek said, if YPAP is doing charity work for an ulterior motive (political gains), then it is not as noble as one initially thought.

KopitiamApek,”But if YP exists to really garner young views that challenges the current political thoughts towards the betterment of society, then it is good.”

I agree! I was thinking….shouldn’t this be the job of journalists who are out to get stories and views? (May be I am just naive! lol )

Creducator,”His advice was that we should go and volunteer at the grassroot level then slowly climb up the PAP political ladder to make our voice heard.”

Yep, I heard of that too. But…how many of our NMPs “climbed up”? I don’t think many that I know of? If so, may be some names would be good just so I can update myself (I am not “politically informational”!) Thanks!

It’s good to have a share of minds and learn things, view things from all perspective. I hope to learn more from everyone.

too bad tio slam back. talk also never cover ass.

To all on Lim Xin treads,

I maintain that the path(s) chosen by each person is his/her own choice, for better or worst. Good INTENTS like helping the poor or “working from within”, etc… are not to be totally ignored paths but the question is always the intent. Without Lim Xin showing his/her previous views on TOC, this person could be anything from the YPAP’s PRO to a totally fired-up but ignorant person.

Just look at Germany and Japan on transparency & accountability. Economical path after WW2 = economical miracle. Both distributed lots of goodies to direct/indirect victims of their past doings. Money solves things.

Moral path? Ask any German youth about WW2 and they say “Ja, we have Remembrance Day, we know about the Holocaust” – they don’t forgot nor do they expect others to forgot. Ask any Japanese youth, and there is usually a dead silence/blur look on Unit 731, conversation quickly “…move on”. They want to forgot (another generation & it will be achieved) & they EXPECT others to forgot (except the A-bombings; that they are pissed). Surprisingly, both Geramns & Japs get a good night sleep.

If I was a youth, or for our children growing up in SGP, which moral path would I want to choose if I was out distributing goodies? Yes, I would rather do it through a Church group/NGO. But sucks, church groups may not have the resources for glam things like a PRO or a website…

154) creducator

I share your doubts about the effectiveness of working from within, but my point was that having these people in there beats not having nobody there.

159) KopitiamApek,

I guess those who wish to try the work from within strategy, they should only try it for a year or two and then leave if see no result, or else leave for good and join opposition. Otherwise, they will rot there.

I was trying to start an activity but was told to look for sponsor. Tried but not easy as not every company is willing to fund. It is not easy to get. But I know YＰ raises funds whenever it has plans or programmes. So far YP has been a good experience for me. At least I get to voice out and be heard. The bond is strong asn there is very good team spirit and commitment. I am not sure if the past was the same but the new direction of YP to embrace views and empower has helped give me confidence to bring up about issues, e.g. less elitist education system and a more efficient civil service.

To me YP is about change. The YP leaders that I got to know are walking the talk and lead from the front. Though I won’t say for a few at my branch. But the majority makes me feel worthwhile to be part of the action.

Sponsor? For transport? I thought YPAP is “funded” by PAP (or people’s income tax)? Pls correct me if I am wrong.

I do see change – look at what some blind and handicapped are doing. Because the associations behind these people teach them that they are of value to society. Despite their lower salary range, they lead a meaningful and fuller lives.

Distributing food rations to poor may help them temporarily – but long-term doing so, does not really change anything unless you teach them how to FISH.

@KopitiamApek (#158) I agree! They can function as “see and report”! heee heeee

@161) kelly on July 29th, 2009 5.21 am

How to fish? Pond is controlled and many fishermen now with the influx of FT/FWs. Just need to tax whoever uses the pond, so why bother to teach people to fish? Then there will surely be people push to the fringes of society and saviours like YPAP can step in to distribute some goodies. Pure cause and effect theory. Like most things, why YPAP suddenly “woke up” only near elections season? Upgrading of opposition wards too. Fishy?

Again, appreciate Lim Xin show his/her previous postings so we can see if what this person says is consistent. So far, the stories are quite heartening…. like Harry Potter series. Maybe we should tell the story of how SGP threw babies away so that the boat can reach shore faster…You see, long, long ago…

@159) creducator on July 28th, 2009 10.33 pm
Agree, anyone trying to work “from within” must have a time-out period. Like I said, otherwise they soon become part of the system, or worse. I see a few MPs from the last batch like that – 4 years & you can see which way they have drifted. Maybe everyone is thinking of a Mikhail Gorbochev. I said TKK.

Why not work “from outside” — something like Mother Teresa. If people like Lim Xin really want to make that difference, go join her Missionaries of Charity – go for the big fish, not small fries like YPAP.

To 162) theforgottongeneration,

“Then there will surely be people push to the fringes of society and saviours like YPAP can step in to distribute some goodies. Pure cause and effect theory. Like most things, why YPAP suddenly “woke up” only near elections season? Upgrading of opposition wards too. Fishy?”

It means good timing; minimum effort, maximum effect. Sorry to say that, Lim Xin is just a small pawn (with a noble cause) in a big complex web. Who will remember Lim Xin, they will only remember YPAP and the MP for the work done which indirectly score points for PAP. You have to agree this is a good strategy. Get some hot-blooded youngster(s) to spearhead the cause and claim the credit – this strategy is used far too often in the corporate world.

“Again, appreciate Lim Xin show his/her previous postings so we can see if what this person says is consistent. So far, the stories are quite heartening…. like Harry Potter series. Maybe we should tell the story of how SGP threw babies away so that the boat can reach shore faster…You see, long, long ago…”

I am more interested for Lim Xin to prove her point that YPAP is changing (from the political sense – not charity work). You know, human has very short attention time-span. If YPAP is really changing, Lim Xin should be able proudly pro-claimed that YPAP has done this this this and this after …… one month, 3 month, 6 month, 1 year? 2 year? Before and after elections. But I doubt Lim Xin can keep this up for long… I will be surprised if she even comes back to prove her points in 3 months time. Let’s hope I am wrong. (I presume Lim Xin is a lady as her name sounds like one – I apologise if I got it wrong).

Nonetheless, my experience tells me that in recent years (past 10 years or so especially), PAP only talk, talk, talk and talk…. I hear you…. PERIOD. I really do hear you…. but nothing changes… still no transparency and accountability in our country for top-notch politician and civil servants. MP continues to say I we are working on it; and this is a complex, delicate and enormous task…. I have constraints…. avoid the topic by saying working on something more important but don’t know what….. short of saying I need to toe the party line, it will affect my “wonderful” remuneration package and perks….

Things can be pretty complex, if anyone wish it to be.

Calvin the Clown has also discredited the commitee that selects NMP.

Can he seriously be the best we can get as NMP?

Since his appt, accidents and apologies all the way.

Or maybe he SDP plant, to discredit Parly and selection process.

Hi TheForgottenGeneration. HOW TO FISH? Just like how you teach insurance agents to be educated and sell insurance (just an example although I don’t think insurance is all that a “noble” job).

Teaching doctors to serve up pills to the sick is..well, leaves much to be desired.

Actually I don’t see any difference between serving LARGE organisations and smaller ones. For example, PETA is considered large, but I sometimes cannot agree to the methods they use to make people go vegetarian (I am a vegetarian myself). The KFC thingie and encouraging people to cook vege using radiation-powered microwave! Large corps and charities are MORE capable of corruption because they may have more ready funds or donations.

Btw, how many cancer charities actually HELP Cancer patients? Most money go to support cruel experiments using chemotherapy. (Such donations support making, testing of more anti-cancer drugs that have not been tested for their interactions with other prescription drugs, vaccines, fertility, etc.) If chemo is safe, why the need to even “test” it on my friend? He died within 1.5 years.

Do cancer patients even know about “thermagram”? Cancer sufferers are not informed of all their options because the orthodox doctors here are not even educated in it.

People may think they are helping by doing “charities” but what’s the reality?

I know it isn’t easy to fish – just keep finding the ‘loopholes’ that may allow you to fish. Now protecting natural resources is a new noble line of work to be involved in.

Rather than following the example of PAP (earning money by taxing on dangerous products like cigarettes), why not earn money by promoting really good and useful things that are not risky to health and also help humans?

Singapore does not offer that kind of education (for example, ow to use solar energy for homes and offices, ow to plant greens – in a confined space – to filter cancer-causing substances in air, etc). If you are able to offer this kind of education, may be this is FISH.

Errata: Singapore does not offer that kind of education (for example, how to use solar energy for homes and offices, how to plant greens – in a confined space – to filter cancer-causing substances in air, etc). If you are able to offer this kind of eco-friendly education, may be this is FISH.

@163) Dumb and dumber on July 29th, 2009 10.47 am

Yeah, I hear you too. See you are quite active in TOC. Sign, wish there is something we can do about the situation.

@166) kelly on July 29th, 2009 4.38 pm

FYI, I shared some views on solar power under a TOC article by TKL. Reckon we are about 5-8 years behind in adopting compared with Japan, Europe, Germany, USA. Cost is given as the issue by HDB, BCA, etc… Pure BS as such countries able to adopt while facing the same costs (basically PV manufacturers are few worldwide, demand outpacing supply). Issue is that each country found it necessary to inject billions into such schemes & the goal is long-term (15-20 years). Well, we blew our billions in investments. If only couple of billions taken from TH/GIC portfolio and used to “fish” in solar, we could have something now. Worked out $60b lost by TH could had solar-powered about 10,000 to 18,000 HDB blocks! Think of potential industry for such numbers even in small singapore. I lamented why none of our scholars doing this field 5-8 years back. No fishermen?

No help for cancer patients? LHL would dispute you – every tech was possibly considered in his case, maybe even cloning. Ha, Ha, I’m not medical person.

Lastly, on “from within” concept. We are probably not only one to compound this. Look at ex-NMP Siew Hong Kum. Good candidate for “from within” if given 2nd term? He also wanted to continue right? What happened? Like someone said, they are always one step ahead of us.

Hi again @TheForgottenGeneration GOOD LAMENT! Why are none of our scholars doing this field work 5 to 8 years back? The Singaporean selling solar-powered panels to Europe is an NTU professor. Hmmm….”Save Gaia” – what does this mean to the govt.

“LHL would dispute you.” Probably! He is right – medical technology has advanced but it is not the equivalent of “saving more lives”.

People who have received chemotherapy and lost the battle:
Angelina Jolie, Madonna and Rosie O’Donnell (who all lost their mothers to chemo); Paul McCartney (who lost his first wife, Linda, to breast cancer); CBS news anchor Katie Couri’s husband; American Idol David Cook’s maternal grandfather; Brian Williams of NBC Nightly News’ mum and sister; S. Epatha Merkerson of “Law and Order” (who lost 2 of her very best friends to chemo) …Singapore’s famous blogger Mrs Razzo and the list go.

For chemo to work on killing one cancerous cell, 499 healthy cells die. Signs: fatigue, loss of appetite, unable to walk or talk, go bald. That is what chemo gives you. If you recover, that is only because your body has time to rebuild new healthy cells in between chemotherapy sessions.

@169) kelly on July 30th, 2009 2.21 am

Kelly,
Seriously, didn’t president OTC died of cancer too? Why no all-out efforts to save him too? At least that was a decent man. Is it true influx of white cells helps? I did get hooked on that donor milking machine for about 1 hours, almost fell asleep, nurse thought I fainted.

Again, I’m zil on medical but ancients believed if a person survive a great calamity then it is a sign from the gods. These people then set out conquering the world, thinking they have the mandate of the gods. Ha, ha. (He still looks like a clone to me – movements so robotic!)

P.S. Heard so much about our biotech sector. Any major breakthru thus far BY LOCALS? Hopefully they can find commerical cures to the various illnesses; seems like we are just running here and there trying to look busy.

Apologies, we diverting away for topic….but, cheers.

Hi TheForgottenGeneration Nope, I don’t think people died from cancer although they did suffer from cancer pains. Most people receiving chemo (for cancer) died from chemo. I’ve always said Cancer is not a bitch as with your headaches – they are trying to tell you SOMETHING is not right and gives you a chance to ‘fix’ the problem.

There was one major breakthrough by one Singaporean but they did not even make it to frontpage. I don’t even remember the details or the person’s name except I remember his surname is CHAN. If I find the info again, I’ll let you know. (This breakthrough to me, is not really a breakthrough!)

I apologise too cos I also realise this is a diversion from the topic.

Hi Lim Xin,

“To me YP is about change. The YP leaders that I got to know are walking the talk and lead from the front. Though I won’t say for a few at my branch. But the majority makes me feel worthwhile to be part of the action.”

It about a month or so. Hope you are able to share with me the chances from an insiders point of view…

@172) Dumb and dumber on August 27th, 2009 2.27 pm

Dumb and dumber,

U TKK (wait long long) for reply. Per modus operandi, people like LX will act blur & move on.

Maybe she’s busy. Let’s wait for a few days.