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Leong Sze Hian
When the question was last asked in parliament as to the rejection rate for applications for the Public Assistance scheme, the answer was that about 50 per cent were rejected.
As there are only about 3,000 Singaporeans receiving public assistance, the question that needs to be raised is whether the criteria to qualify is too strict?
The Ministry of Community Development, Youth and Sports’ (MCYS) website says:
“If you are unable to work owing to old age, illness or disability and have no means of subsistence and have little or no family support you may seek help under the PA scheme”.
Thus in Madam Chung’s case (featured in the video report above), where she appears to be able to “work”, she may not qualify for PA.
The tens of thousands of elderly toilet cleaners, food court cleaners, used drink cans and used cardboard collectors, etc, I believe may also fail to meet the PA scheme criteria.
If the elderly lady earns more than $12 a day, she may be actually better of being a rubbish scavenger, as recepients of the PA scheme are not allowed to work.
I also understand that if you own a flat, or have working children, it is also very difficult to qualify. Would you prefer to stay in your own home – instead of having to sell it and use up the proceeds, in order to get $360?
Medifund I understand cannot be used for polyclinic out-patient treatment. I spoke to a 81 year-old toilet cleaner who earns just $600 a month, and she told me that her biggest worry is that everytime she goes to a polyclinic about every three months, she has to pay about $98 for her three-months medicine and consultation.
As I understand it, the criteria to qualify for Medifund is confidential. As far as I am able to find out, the patient and family members must all have nothing in their Medisave, very little in their bank accounts, hardly any extra monthly disposable income, in order to get Medifund subsidy. Also, getting Medifund does not mean free, it may just be a subsidy for part of the medical cost.
I also understand that about 20 per cent of Medifund applications are rejected.
Members of parliament should know what are the rejection rates for Public Assistance, Financial Assistance and Medifund in their own constituencies. I suggest that these statistics be made public.
Compare Singapore to any developed country, and the number of only 3,000 public assistance recipients against the total citizen population, may be the lowest “welfare per capita” in the world.
To get the whole picture, perhaps what we need are the statistics. For example, according to the latest Department of Statistics data available, the bottom ten percentile of employed households have a per capita monthly income of only $360. What about unemployed households and retiree households? How many of the 116,600 unemployed as at June 2009 have zero or very low per capita income?
How many Singaporeans earn less than $800? The latest data say that 292,800 residents (Singaporeans and PRs) earn less than $1,200, and about 126,800 work part-time for a median income of $600 which has remain unchanged from 1999 to 2008.
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Singapore does have :
1. Poor
2. Homeless
3. Jobless – oh plenty!!!
4. Abused
5. Raped
6. Cheated – mini bon bon , job offers etc
7. Divorced
8. Destitutes and desperados.
9. record citizens who gave up their citizenship.
A. People complain about the low quality of life.
But some say singaporeans are happy.
tiredman
post #52 on August 31st, 2009 1.12 pm
“Policies that generate social cost must be answered adequately. You must remember that gahman make policies that affect lives. It is the life of every single soul who called themselves Singaporeans.”
very well said!! ;)
50years with PAP and lee kuan yew and lately his son, wife and familee, which they keep mentioning they will help singaporeans and singaporeans will be not left behind. yes we would not denied that we have no shelter and food to eat. yes we have we have a shelter to stay BUT how much we have to pay for? yes we have a food to it BUT how much we have to pay for??
look around us the cost of living and look at most of us singaporeans payslip.
look at how our ministers and so on how much their salaries that they are earning??
1999 to 2009 a singaporeans cleaner earns $800 are still earning the same while the cost living are NOT!!!
the cost of gast when up as to lend a hand to singaporeans with lower income and those old folks in needs of help and for us singaporeans as this so call LEE KUAN YEW and his PAP said.
but where are all those now?? if have are they refering to the peanuts they lend out to singaporeans?
if the govt does not give enough they can always pull out the “last resort”….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyEZII_MJDw&feature=related
lol…
As for what we have seen in most PAP outlet which resident who seek the help of mp every monday as this mp have promises them before they are voted! they speak out loud enough even a deaf human can hear their voices!! but now??
if really pap really do they job and keep their words to help singaporeans give them a better life and support they need then why are there increasing of singaporeans visiting all this PAP every monday and almost most of them are the repeated family who keep returning for appeal regarding the same issue!!
we ourselve had experience it with all this pap!
most of singaporeans get is:
they visits this pap every week and keep coming like visiting a museum full of never ending histories!
what this pap mp does is:
writer will write your stories and thereafter forward to the person who is incharge which is our dearest PAP mp.
then our PAP mp will then call us and tell us that he will try his best to do something about it or he will forward your request.
what the @$@! just like that?? do they really hear what we have to say? they just rush us out as soon as they can and next….please then it the same things goes on to clear the crowds outside PAP premises.
so that is what they call and most singaporeans think. this is a good PAP mp he is fast!! but realiable??
some of our dumb singaporeans would say/ you go ah this PAP at example toa payoh ah so many people!! the PAP there very good that’s why many people go they!
think again. is it the PAP good or is it the same repeated singaporeans keep coming for the same issue and plus the new comer that had created this crowds?
if PAP really does their job! if they CARE for us SINGAPOREANS!! would there be this poor singaporeans families keep begging them in every PAP outlets??
are this PAP trying to keep themselve busy pretending to help singaporeans as to cover up the millions dollars behind them??
OH my GOODNESS!! she sleeping on the trash of boxes and papers and tin cans??????!!!
so this is what LEE KUAN YEW and his PAP mention singaporeans is one nation one people one country and we strive as one??!!
we will VOTE YOU OUT!!! we will never reconsider this GOVERMENT!!
T.O.C and all the READERS here. can we know where we can visit this old lady?
anyone knows where her address??
oh my god sleep on the trash like a dead old folks.
if the govt does not give enough they can always pull out the “last resort”
first of all they have not even give anything!!
The young leaders of PAP, some graduates from top university overseas will never be moved by cases like this because their ‘academic’ argument is focussed on OVER GENEROSITY. They will always bring up UK or Europe and their ‘failure’ (no idea what this failure is all about). Yes, something is missing in these young leaders and all I can say is, there is no much hope if this carries on.
48) leesjuanpat
Just to check whether this minister Vivian did gave this kind of reply to MP Lily Neo? Any form of checking as I need to know.
If this truth, I will personnal bring up this issue to the PM. What kind answer is this , without any king compassion.
One day, all of us will get old. I will get the same treatment if we do not address this kind of issue. We should have the right to question the behavoiur of our leaders.
::very angry on August 31st, 2009 6.04 pm
T.O.C and all the READERS here. can we know where we can visit this old lady?
anyone knows where her address??::
She’s always there at the backlane of Stanley Street & Telok Ayer Street, just in front of Bangkok Bank at McCullum Street. In fact right in the centre of ShentonWay/Robinson Road financial district. What the hell! Talk about moving together as one people, one nation. No one should be left behind, etc……
A new condo is being built right in front of her ‘territory’, it’s call “The Clift” a 43 storey state of art futuristic living for the rich and famous. It’s slated to be TOP in early 2011.
Don’t worry, the powers to be will surely ‘relocate’ her before “The Clift”‘s TOP.
61) Yang on August 31st, 2009 7.05 pm 48) leesjuanpat
Just to check whether this minister Vivian did gave this kind of reply to MP Lily Neo? Any form of checking as I need to know.
yang, you can read the full speech here.
http://siewkumhong.blogspot.com/2007/03/how-many-portions-of-help-sir.html
Dr Lily Neo: Sir, I want to check with the Minister again when he said on the strict criteria on the entitlement for PA recipients. May I ask him what is his definition of “subsistence living”? Am I correct to say that, out of $260 per month for PA recipients, $100 goes to rental, power supply and S&C and leaving them with only $5 a day to live on? Am I correct to say that any basic meal in any hawker centre is already $2.50 to $3.00 per meal? Therefore, is it too much to ask for just three meals a day as an entitlement for the PA recipients?
Dr Vivian Balakrishnan: How much do you want? Do you want three meals in a hawker centre, food court or restaurant?
43) talking to a tree
2 wrongs make one right?
44) budamax1952
Please read my post again and see if your insunating comments are justified
Is sad that SIngapore Government cannot see the unfortunate Singaporean.
What they see are just bunch of S immigrants they called talent. Yet, they are here to BS. Is really sad.
My simpe straight forward question “Wonder where are her children?” continues to elicit very interesting responses.
If one is not guilty of wrongdoing, of abandoning own parents, why so defensive? Why the need ot show this underlying insecurity.
//KopitiamApek
Her children follow PAP’s example.
They abdicated their responsibilities because of failed investments much like the PAP who abdicated their responsibilities of protecting the people of Singapore.
The children remained silent like the way the ministers remain silent on the cock ups in their policies the last 2 years.
PEople learn from their leaders.
To be poor is almost a crime in Singapore.
Fpc
////They abdicated their responsibilities because of failed investments much like the PAP who abdicated their responsibilities of protecting the people of Singapore.
The children remained silent like the way the ministers remain silent on the cock ups in their policies the last 2 years.////
add to that, the children can say they have excellent track record in school & at work over the decades…
Behold the ‘morality’ behind socialism!
“Social security should be guaranteed for all elderly Singaporeans above 65yrs old… We must support these social security measures. One day, all of us are going to be old.”
“Seriously, this can turn out to be any of us in the near future.”
“i wonder sometime one day it might be one of us here end up like this lady’s plight.”
People don’t want socialism because they want to help the poor – if they did they can just donate their time or money to the Buddhist Lodge or other NGOS – they want socialism because they want to benefit from it.
They don’t think: I will work hard so I can support myself in my old age, they think: I will vote for a socialist government so I can be taken care of at other’s expense in my old age.
They don’t tell their fellow citizens: work hard so you can take care of yourself in your old age, they use fear to persuade them.
I used to think a government that promises to take care of the poor but doesn’t do it is bad. Now I know a government that promises to take care of the poor and *will* do it will be worse.
I will be sure during the next election to cast my vote so that my tax money doesn’t go to supporting you people in the future.
Dont worry for me APEK!
You are always welcome as APEK@KOPITIAM, or DOM.APEK or APEK.CKK or something else.
Anger you can see meh? Now you are a GOD can see thru LCD screen! I was laughing when i wrote this truly enjoying myself every bit. Scolding people like you makes me alive n happy! No sadist here. Thank you APEK!. Especially people like you i love to scold….no stopping you to scold me back ok! Please feel free hor! Communication is 2 way. Wish you a happy long live the KING!
TOC,
I have taken away some light-hearted %#$% so that KOPIAPEK can swallow easily coz kopi too hot. Please don remove my comment and his if not cannot communicate effectively. Thank you.
Apek,
“Go check out if ow many get “dumped” into old folks homes and into the tsreets.
It is hard to be accurate in ascertaining who qualifies for welfare benefits, so it is easy for TOC to just stick the blame on Gahmen on all these cases they dig up,”
Are you sick or what? If these old folks are dumped by their children please ask the GOV to nab them and fine them with the proceeds going to cover medical costs of the folks. In the meantime, should i SAY should the GOV be responsible to pay the bill first or it is too tall an order?
Everyone knows there is no sense of accountability to the SG people with 100 Billion dollars lost in investments by the “Talented” specially selected by the GOV. Why should the children be held accountable to their parents with moral grounds as the only main pillar of reason and if also the children themselves are truly in financial needs? Or the old folks have no kids at all? The government fails terribly in this aspect to account to the people its own big mistakes and expect others to account theirs first. Leadership by example? What a laughing STOCK!
What a bloody thick skinned GARMEN we have! Apek are you as thick skinned as the them? I love my parents too and hope that my pittance salary can help keep them away from homes and pray that their health is pink always, or they will end up collecting trash as a form of exercise like what shitty Times said.
people like KopitiamApek who talk like a “TUA” “PAO”. e.g. Big Empty Cannon.
There is a P65 blog you can let go of crap please dont come here and disturb true blue sinkies with you weirdo logic. You spoke just like the MSM and shitty times which is something no one here will ever listen to and don ever talk about TOC as a degraded site as you love always to speak of coz if so why are u still here always? Really do you have a heart of compassion? Go get your master’s paycheck.
I am just wondering
After AFP or Mr Leong made this report and video, did any one of them managed to help/direct the poor old lady to some charity group or volunteers??
( Pls note that i have no intention of blaming game)
if govt has done a good job they would have made VWOs shut down, due to market forces of the absence of demand.
no demand, no supply. but why got demand?
Goodness, when was the last time you volunteered your time to assist the needy anyway. A bunch of hypocrites. You must have looked at the map, saw our place in the world and assumed we will always do well. Honestly, I think it is about people wanting more money in their pockets. Knowing Singaporeans, who complain about practicality becoming an ideology, it is probably nothing more than that. You want to complain about something, complain about that.
Come on, Singapore is great, man! I see the flaws but, all things considered, I have no complains.
You people need to relax.
Peace. Smile. Laugh.
By the way, if you really have issues with the nation that gives everyone as fair a shake as it can possibly do so, why don’t you leave for some place else and try your luck. Cya!
I need to point out the following:
1. To the writer: Please do not associate or compare Singapore to a developed nation. The island is FAR from being a developed nation! A defined national language (uuhhh…. Singlish?), a diversified economy (pharmaceuticals, semi-con fabrication, construction, heck! I can name them all with one hand!!), a free-market economy (DBS, SingTel, Keppel, JTC, you get the picture!!), a democratically elected government (you also get the picture!!)?
2. In the February of 2006 (I believe), the Parliament voted AGAINST an increase in Public Assistance to the 3,000+ families/individuals who are on this scheme. On the same year, they voted to approve a pay increase for every cabinet ministers. Remember there was so much stir in the public about the PM’s pay and his increase that he “volunteered” to donate all his increase that year to charity?!?
3. No one left behind? I think their “one” refers to cabinet ministers and party members. Just look at their pay check!
These, as Straits Times would gloat, are the “highly-qualified” and “credible” individuals that you have voted for! The robbers and bandits IN WHITE are colluding to rob the nation broke in BROAD DAY-LIGHT – and the Singaporean voters are STILL voting them in droves!!
“64) KopitiamApek on August 31st, 2009 8.25 pm
2 wrongs make one right? ”
Sure. But don’t you think that effort should be concentrated on those very people who are entrusted to set a better example given the much wider influence they can make on peoples’ perception by virtue of the important positions they hold.
That is why Mr. Kopitiam, you are always talking to a tree, the wrong tree when there is a bigger and important tree that you ignore (or miss) ……..
# 71 Godwin /// I will be sure during the next election to cast my vote so that my tax money doesn’t go to supporting you people in the future ///
Hi Mr. Godwin (sic)
You talk as if you are in a position to decide where your tax dollar will end up!!
By the way, since you are so dead intent in seeing that your “tax money doesn’t go to supporting you people”, i have a suggestion for you: the PAPies coffers are dwindling, sent your tax money direct to them; they will highly appreciate your noble and generous gesture.
Godwin /// I used to think a government that promise to take care of the poor but doesn’t do it is bad. Now i know a government that promises to take care of the poor and *will* do it is worse ///
Yeah, your free-for-all, laissez-faire capitalist utopia that Singapore now is, where 40% of the population just survives over the poverty-line, and where 5% has cornered 90% of the wealth, is the ideal place on earth, as compared to the great socialist nations where there is equitable sharing of the wealth of a nation.
The sad truth of Spore society is, we have given too much power to the gahmen
thru our votes. Yes! the early years of PAP rule are for the people. Fought for independence, created jobs. And the old guards helped LKY to consolidate his power.
As the years go by, as the founder old guards by death or retired left the political scene. LKY becomes the sole dictator of the system which he thinks is built by him alone. He survived the odds with many underhand authorities and thus the
present sad state of affair facing the citizens who are destitute and poor.
The elites and LKY’s yes men and GRO’s benefitted much at the expense of ordinary handworking honest citizens.
With the national coiffure accumulated at billions and also losing billions without
abating an eye-lid.
Only a one party system can profess to wedge such supreme power to silence all critics and show no accountability of the tax-payers money. At the same time enriching themselves with increase in exorbitant salary which was easily passed by parliament. WHY? Because there is no voice nor creditable opposition to counter them. Low Thia Khiang is a meek lamb. Chiam See Tong is geting old and hopefully has a successor to take over in Potong Pasir. Chiam did a good job for the residents.
When parliament voted against the increase in Public Assistance in 2006 and only 3000 were on the dole. 3000 x 340= 1,020.000 dollars only. per mth.
With the enormous tax on GST, ERP, etc, etc. billions are collect ever month.
We do not see why the PAP gahmen will not assist the destitute old folks of S’pore but will increase their salary by leaps and bounds to stash into their fat bank account.
The average poor do not have 200 dollars in their savings and many have no money for daily survival to have any bank account to their name.
The government must show greater compassion to these poor wretched old senior citizens without a home, with no children to care for them. Many may have children but the fallback on the PAP’s policy of stopping at two backfired, to have more children pooling resources to help our old age parents.
Young couple buliding a family faced the hardship of how to balance earning a living and procreating . It is never easy in our present context of Spore with such high cost of living. So, sad but true, old parents are left on their own and live a lonely life of misery.
Can the PAP after 50 years of nation building and enriching themselves legally with the poor taxpayers money, have no heart to look after the poor haggard old folks who had contributed in no small measure to nation building.
Is the PAP government only see into their own interest of ‘national wealth’ for their own comfort of life. Are we all not humans of the same kind?
Alas! the heart shattering truth of totalitarian, despotic and absolute rule of a one party system under the one and only dictator LKY. The others are all the MM men of no substance and compassion.
Nothing is permanent. We citizens can make the different. Do it right for the poor old citizens of our sad nation.
“When parliament voted against the increase in Public Assistance in 2006 and only 3000 were on the dole. 3000 x 340= 1,020.000 dollars only. per mth.”
actually, our compassionate mps were only voting against a difference of $30 x 3000 = $90,000.
Only $90k difference and they were united in arms against the increment.
When our talented Ho Ching lost billions of dollars, not a pip from the same mps.
Vote wisely. Vote Japanese style. Malaysian style oso can.
# 71 Godwin /// I will be sure during the next election to cast my vote so that my tax money doesn’t go to supporting you people in the future ///
Hi Mr. Godwin (sic),
Do you think you are in a position to decide where your tax dollar goes ???
Since you are so dead-set in making sure that “my tax money doesn’t go to supporting you people”, here is a suggestion you should take up avidly: lately the coffers of the PAPies has been dwindling; sent your tax money direct to them, so that they will highly appreciate your generous and noble gesture, and sooner or later they will reward you with a medal.
Godwin /// I used to think a government that promise to take care of the poor but doesn’t do it is bad. Now i know a government that promises to take care of the poor and *will* do it will be worse ///
The ‘free-for-all’, laissez-faire capitalist utopia that Singapore now is, where 40% of the people barely survive above the poverty-line, and where 5% of the people has cornered 90% of the wealth surely must be the ideal place on earth to you, Mr. Godwin, when compared to the great socialist nations of the world where the wealth of the nation is more equitably shared among its citizens.
[i]Rod on September 1st, 2009 2.27 am
Goodness, when was the last time you volunteered your time to assist the needy anyway. A bunch of hypocrites.[/i]
and without any doubts
you do visit the ole the aged the helpless and the homeless? right?yes?
for my case, i don’t do the above as well, since i don’t even helped my neighbourS upstairs, i only lent a lisennin ear or 2 and post their sadness thru here.
However havin said all that, whenever a hungry person dirty or uncleaned approach me @ my meals in the hawker centre, i would buy them a meal..well a cheap budget meal..nothin to booast about..when was the last time you bought a kopi 0 for a discharged madman who goes aroun stealin a sip or 2 in the houghang kopitiam whenever that diner(s) disappear either to pick up their food orders.. i do even though the kopi lady asked me not to bother/notice him @ all
see the differences between YOU and us the commonors?
Well, sadly, from the post of Rod, we can assume that he is just someone who drops by here to rant about the posters here, and after that, will return back to his well and stay there and imagine that his world is oh-so-big-and-good…
“Come on, Singapore is great, man! I see the flaws but, all things considered, I have no complains” Like i have said in the past, if people think like this, there will be no progress and no innovation and people like rod can be staying in a well/cave and won’t even know what’s a computer….we don’t strive for perfection, we strive to make things better…
“why don’t you leave for some place else and try your luck. Cya! ” Rod, if all the people who wants a better singapore leaves, don’t tell me you didn’t realise it, but singapore will forward get stuck at where it is….
diversified views should be encouraged as it prevents group-think that is evident in the singapore system and visible through Rod…by encouraging the “purging” of people who feels different, those in that same group will remain unchange
when it comes to helping the poor, those who are more able to make a difference in terms of financial wealth or position of influence must be in the frontline helping the poor & the destitute. for they are the 1s who benefited most from the good economic years. afterall its those in position of power & influence who dictate the salary of those working under them.
Behold the hypocrisy of the socialist system!
“those who are more able to make a difference in terms of financial wealth… *must* be in the frontline helping the poor & the destitute”
What right do you have to compel those who have earned their money to”help” the poor?
When you say “help” what you are really saying is that you want to forcibly take money from them, money they have earned, and give that to the poor, who have not earned it, isn’t it?
What gives you the right to do that? What gives you the right to take money from someone without their consent? If they have not earned that money fradulently or criminally, should they not have the right to do with it as they see fit? And if they have, the money should be recovered by legal means and returned to the rightful owners, and not just disbursed to the poor.
Anyone is free to help with their own money – that is called charity; but no one has the right to force another man to part with his money – *that* is called robbery.
“The ‘free-for-all’, laissez-faire capitalist utopia that Singapore now is, where 40% of the people barely survive above the poverty-line, and where 5% of the people has cornered 90% of the wealth surely must be the ideal place on earth to you, Mr. Godwin, when compared to the great socialist nations of the world where the wealth of the nation is more equitably shared among its citizens.”
So what is your ideal place, Mr budamax? A country where the money of the people who have earned them are forcibly taken from them and given to those who have not earned them?
Do the rich not deserve to keep the money they have earned by offering goods and services which other people have valued enough to paid money for? Or are they obliged to make and give part of that money to the poor, whose only claim to their share is the fact that they are poor?
If a man who is poorer than you are came up to you today and demanded some of your money solely because he is poorer than you, what would you say to him?
At least Mdm Chung still tries to *earn* her money.
[i]Anyone is free to help with their own money – that is called charity; but no one has the right to force another man to part with his money – *that* is called robbery. [/i]
and without a doubt leekuanyew and famiLLEE didn’t do the above
right? yes? no?
now do you want me to elobrate how we are bein forced to part with our money in the name of charity? or whatsoever?
for a start..what is wrong being forced to pay @ $0.50cents for enterin bencoolen street and later bein forced to pay triple the amount if we are not on time enterin?
let alone payin for enterin on a weekend saturday? is bencoolen street designated as orchard road status? do you feel bein robbed everytime when you want to go into town either for a joyride or bein part of the family by bringin your loved ones alon? and why should 1 pay on 1 private moments with 1 family to spend quality time with 1 loved ones?
feel free to share our ^charitable^ moments here..and if you can afford..try to be a towgay for onced…even the retired/sacked ministers dared NOT open a shop or a factory when they too was fired..but when they were ministers they do bragged how good they are which make them a numero uno CEO..on the outside world..they are just another PEASANTs..learnt to ape liked the retired ngiam who were onced an NMP..he know that it not easy to run a company..he tried to run hdb inc privately, endmonth he sweat liked hell for he know every DOLLAR counts….
May suggesst stop meeting people session on monday of the month because it cost us $13 thousand plus from ours tax money for just 2 to 4 hours job with no certain solution for your problems. Why not divert that extra allownances to medical,education, transport, PA , the poor ,old people and disable peoples. I believed their pays are the best and no. 1 in the world with only 3 millions plus populations. Unless they are sincerely wanted to help for free.
I don’t get your point, irobottoo.
If you think the current gahmen is robbing you, by all means try to vote them out; but what does that have to do with whether or not the rich *must* help the poor?
Does it mean that the gahmen rob you, means it’s OK for the gahmen to rob the rich to give to the poor?
Robbing is wrong, whether it’s done by an individual or a gahmen, and whether the gahmen is robbing to give to the poor or keep for themselves or both.
As you said, those who are towkay and earn their money will know money hard to come – so why should these people, when they have overcomed the oddsd and earned their money, be forced to give some of that to the poor?
Just answer this: do the poor have a right to *your* money?
Godwin,
post #87 on September 1st, 2009 5.04 pm
beware the hypocracy of a meritcratic (winner takes all) system!!
“What right do you have to compel those who have earned their money to”help” the poor?”
wow, what strong reaction… you are over-reacting.
“When you say “help” what you are really saying is that you want to forcibly take money from them, money they have earned, and give that to the poor, who have not earned it, isn’t it?”
that’s assumption on your part. you seem overly-paranoid.
“What gives you the right to do that? What gives you the right to take money from someone without their consent?”
a rather papranoid response…
“If they have not earned that money fradulently or criminally, should they not have the right to do with it as they see fit?”
why the obssession with rights? where in my statements imply such rights taken away? are some rich jealously guarding their pot of gold?
“And if they have, the money should be recovered by legal means and returned to the rightful owners, and not just disbursed to the poor.”
depends on the law of the land, just look at the financial product scandal. legal means on who’s side?
“but no one has the right to force another man to part with his money – *that* is called robbery.”
when workers are forced to work for less & less money that is exploitation.
your level of paranoia is quite pronounced…
Uniquely Sinkapore while ministers draw million dollar salary and the poor and homeless stay poor and homeless? What message is the ruling regime sending to the outside world? A good place to invest and while social issues are building up ready for a big explosion one day? When that day come to pass, what’s left of the beautiful garden city is any body guess. Short sighted? Greed? There may be time to correct the mistakes and it is up all Sinkaporean to do it. Exercise your vote wisely just like the Japanese electorate. Send a clear message to the ruling regime that they had out lived their usefulness. All in your hand Sinkaporean. It is your choice and your vote.
86) Godwin
>>>>”Behold the hypocrisy of the socialist system!”<<<>>>”What right do you have to compel those who have earned their money to”help” the poor?”<<<>>>”When you say “help” what you are really saying is that you want to forcibly take money from them, money they have earned, and give that to the poor, who have not earned it, isn’t it?”<<<>>>”What gives you the right to take money from someone without their consent? If they have not earned that money fradulently or criminally, should they not have the right to do with it as they see fit? And if they have, the money should be recovered by legal means and returned to the rightful owners, and not just disbursed to the poor.”<<<>>>”Anyone is free to help with their own money – that is called charity; but no one has the right to force another man to part with his money – *that* is called robbery.”<<<<
One last time in case you do not get it: If the money is unethically earned, or not legitimately earned, it is also called robbery. If you like the word 'rob' so much, what people are advocating here is to ROB BACK FROM THE RICH (who used to rob the poor).
mice is nice,
You are simply avoiding having to face facts. Tell me straight: where is the money you say should go towards “helping” the poor coming from?
Godwin,
People are advocating to rob the rich to GIVE BACK to the poor. In case you think people deserve to be poor just because they are old, disabled, sick orphaned, you better pray hard that you you or your children or children’s children will never be one of these. Don’t always think the rich get there because they earn the money the legitimate way, for eg wrecking their brains how best to give people a better life.
Godwin,
People are advocating to rob the rich to GIVE BACK to the poor. You are too naive to think that the super rich get there because they earn the money the honest legitimate way for eg wrecking their brains how best to give people a better life.
In case you think people deserve to be poor just because they are old, disabled, sick orphaned, you better pray hard that you you or your children or children’s children will never be one of these.
Godwin,
you are just trying to paint a biased picture with all the misconceptions that there is a sinister attempt to make you part with your money.
where in my posts imply any use of force to do charitable deeds?
Godwin,
I read the posts here differently from you. I read them as people advocating to rob the rich to GIVE BACK to the poor. You are too naive to think that the super rich get there because they earn the money the honest legitimate way for eg wrecking their brains how best to give people a better life.
In case you think people deserve to be poor just because they are old, disabled, sick orphaned, you better pray hard that you you or your children or children’s children will never be one of these.
“what people are advocating here is to ROB BACK FROM THE RICH (who used to rob the poor).”
So did ALL the rich people in Singapore earn their money unethically or illegally?
If not, how does this system which “helps the poor” you people suggest plan to distinguish between those who did and those who did not?
What about those who got their money by cheating the rich? Should the money you people rob back from them be given back to the rich who were robbed, or to the poor which the money did not come from?
Or are poor people automatically entitled to the money we recover from people who made them unethically or illegally under the system you people propose?
Do you people actually have a system worked out, or is it a simple concept of: poor good, rich bad?
Agent008, you read things differently because you do not or refuse to see the full implications of what these people are advocating.
Did ALL the super rich make their money dishonestly?
Are ALL poor people poor due to circumstances beyond their control?
If your answers to both of the above are ‘no’, then does that not make what these people are advocating unfair?
Why should the rich have their money taken away to “help” the poor simply because they are rich?
Why should the poor deserve the money from the rich simply because they are poor?
What these people have done, in their hatred of the gahmen, is to see things in black-and-white: rich = PAP cronies = evil, poor = PAP victims = good.
That is not only simplistic, it is wrong.
No matter how they try to dress it up, call it “help”, “equitable” or whatnot, what it all boils down to is wanting the money of the rich without regard for whether they have earned it (both in the case of whether the rich have earned their money, or whether the poor have earned the rich’s money).
It is this warped idea that rich = evil and poor = innocent victim that I am arguing against.
“you are just trying to paint a biased picture with all the misconceptions that there is a sinister attempt to make you part with your money.
where in my posts imply any use of force to do charitable deeds?”
Really?
“when it comes to helping the poor, those who are more able to make a difference in terms of financial wealth… *must* be in the frontline helping the poor & the destitute.”
Pray tell what *must* in this case mean?
How do you propose we ensure that the rich do what they *must* do?
If the rich refuse to do what you say they *must* do, what’s going to happen to them?
By your very choice of the word “must” you imply compulsion. You imply your decision to proceed regardless of consent. You imply force. You mean force.
Whether you mean robbing them in the traditional fashion, or whether you mean taking the money from them to give to the poor legally by levying a tax, it is still force, for how is the law enforced if not by force? Is the knife-point of a robber any different from the gunpoint of a policeman enforcing an unjust law?
And you still haven’t answered my simple question, mice is nice:
Where is the money you say should go towards “helping” the poor coming from?
Who are you going to get the money from?
How are you going to get the money from them?
What are you going to do if they refuse to give you that money to “help” the poor?