Friday, August 14, 2009 23:29
MM Lee – population control revisited, 30 years later
In Andrew Loh, Main Stories, Top Story • 4,083 views • 135 Comments
Andrew Loh
On 8 March 2008, the Straits Times carried a report headlined, “Oil prices ‘unlikely to rise further’.” The person making that prediction was none other than Minister Mentor Lee Kuan Yew.
At that time, oil prices were trading at US$105. The ST report said, “As crude oil prices hit US$105 (S$145) per barrel, MM Lee believes it is not likely to creep further up to US$110.”
MM Lee said, “’I don’t think it can go up US$110, US$120, US$150 and the world economy goes on. Inflation will go through the roof. Economies of the West will go down, hyper-inflation in many developing countries. So it will go into reverse.”
Hardly two months later, prices rose above US$110 in May. Another two months later, in July, prices shot to US$145.
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[MM Lee has also admitted to being wrong in banning Formula One races and for disallowing casinos in the past. The GIC, of which he is chairman, was also wrong in "going in too early" when it invested in UBS and Citigroup, MM Lee said in March this year. See here. In July 2007, MM Lee said Singapore was in a "golden period" - right before the financial crisis hit.]
The point here is that we must not be lulled into thinking that MM Lee is always right. He is not. Even his GIC outfit has lost more than $50 billion in bad investments this past year alone.
Thus when the 14 August 2009 edition of the Straits Times gave front page prominence to MM Lee’s remarks on foreign workers and immigrants, we should take pause and ask ourselves: Is MM Lee right?
His past results in population control is, to say the least, dubious.
Stop-At-Two
In the 70s, then-Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew introduced the “Stop-At-Two” policy to curb our population growth. The buzzwords then were “Family Planning” and “Two Is Enough”. For those who are unfamiliar with the policy, this was what it entailed, according to :
“Birth rates fell from 1957 to 1970, but then began to rise as women of the postwar baby boom reached child-bearing years. The government responded with policies intended to further reduce the birth rate.
Abortion and voluntary sterilization were legalized in 1970. Between 1969 and 1972, a set of policies known as “population disincentives” were instituted to raise the costs of bearing third, fourth, and subsequent children.
Civil servants received no paid maternity leave for third and subsequent children; maternity hospitals charged progressively higher fees for each additional birth; and income tax deductions for all but the first two children were eliminated.
Large families received no extra consideration in public housing assignments, and top priority in the competition for enrollment in the most desirable primary schools was given to only children whose parents had been sterilized before the age of forty.
Voluntary sterilization was rewarded by seven days of paid sick leave and by priority in the allocation of such public goods as housing and education.
The policies were accompanied by publicity campaigns urging parents to “Stop at Two” and arguing that large families threatened parents’ present livelihood and future security. The penalties weighed more heavily on the poor, and were justified by the authorities as a means of encouraging the poor to concentrate their limited resources on adequately nurturing a few children who would be equipped to rise from poverty and become productive citizens.”
The policy was so clinically effective in its application and implementation that by the 80s, Singapore’s falling birth rate was in the danger zone. None of the Members of Parliament at that time sounded any alarms about the danger and all apparently supported the birth control policy. The local state-controlled media went along for the ride, much as it is today.
Yet, instead of a total reversal of the policy when it became clear that it was having adverse consequences, MM Lee introduced another ill-fated idea – the infamous “Graduate Mothers Policy”.
e government acted to give preferential school admission to children whose mothers were university graduates, while offering grants of S$10,000 to less educated women who agreed to be sterilized after the birth of their second child. The government also established a Social Development Unit to act as matchmaker for unmarried university graduates. The policies, especially those affecting placement of children in the highly competitive Singapore schools, proved controversial and generally unpopular.”
In 1985, the highly unpopular policy was abolished as it was not achieving its aims of having graduate mothers produce more babies. It was only in 1987 that the Stop-At-Two policy was abandoned entirely. By then, Singapore’s birth rate had run into serious problems – we were not replacing ourselves at an appropriate rate.
Population control revisited
30 years later, the same man who was responsible for the “Stop At Two” policy in the 70s, is now telling us that the government “accept only immigrants who increase the average level of competence of Singaporeans” – and doing so to the tune of 1.68 million foreigners presently on our tiny island, in a population of 3.2 million Singaporeans.
This is in response to Singapore’s birth rate problem – it continues to fall, despite government incentives to induce Singaporeans to have children.
Besides MM Lee’s dubious record in population control, the same danger of our Parliamentarians silently tagging along and thus giving support to such policies, as similarly happened in the 70s and 80s, may see history repeat itself – 30 years hence, with future generations living the consequences of this present policy.
Calls from some quarters for the government to re-look its policy on foreigners have been met with dismissive remarks by government ministers. “Just zeroing in on foreign workers alone is not the total solution,” Manpower Minister Gan Kim Yong said in August. He also termed such calls “simplistic”.
What concerns Singaporeans are not just jobs or economic prosperity but also the social consequences of having so many foreigners in our midst. This has led to some Singaporeans wondering if the government knows what is happening on the ground, where physical and personal space is now harder to come by, even in the heartlands. This may potentially result in social friction among the various groups, something which the Prime Minister spoke about in his National Day message recently.
The government’s preoccupation seems to be the economy and how foreigners can contribute to this. It has said little about the social consequences, although it has set up the l “to drive social integration efforts across the private, people and public sectors”. The success of the council’s effort is left to be seen.
In the meantime, the government has been urging Singaporeans to “embrace and accept” these foreigners, as MM Lee said on 14 August. He also urged Singaporeans to “treat new citizens as equals”.
According to the New Population Secretariat website, the number of PRs in 2008 was 79,167, upped from 63,627 the previous year.
The number of new citizens hit a record high of 20,513 in 2008, upped from 17,334 in 2007.
We seem to be in a hurry to bring in foreigners at an alarming rate.
But perhaps all is not lost. The lone voice in Parliament calling for a re-look of the policy has come from the ruling party’s own Member of Parliament, Mrs Josephine Teo. But even so, she is only concerned about the falling productivity level of Singaporean workers. Her argument is that a more targeted approach to the employment of foreigners will help up the productivity level of Singaporeans.
But given how the government seems to feel that the policy is the right one, and ministers have defended it to the hilt, it does not appear that any changes will be forthcoming.
The man and his ideas are not always right
Lee Kuan Yew’s attempt at population control in the 70s and 80s has resulted in a population unable and unwilling to replace itself.
Will our current policy at population control by the same government result in a worse fate for Singaporeans in the future?
Blogger Lucky Tan says it best here:
The real reason for the large percentage of imported labor, more than almost anywhere else in the world, is to keep wages down so that rent, utilities, transport and other costs can go up. It would have been alright if we did it like Dubai where the indigenous population sits on top of the economic food chain while foreigners do all the work. The problem is a large number of Singaporeans are at the bottom of the food chain….crushed.
Anyone who’s had a track record in population control as Lee Kuan Yew has would be seen as a failure. Yet, we are providing front page coverage to MM Lee’s latest thinking on the topic.
MM Lee may have been instrumental in building Singapore.
But neither he nor his government is always right – as history has proved.
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We recommend this article in Singapore Angle on the topic: Demographic Policy Transition.
Read also: Why are we still being led by one man’s philosophy?
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Related posts:
135 Comments
David
mice is nice
maybe in his heart, MM Lee is a China Chinese?
patriot
Dear Singaporeans;
MM Lee Kuan Yew is no god and just like any other humans, he is just as prone to make inaccurate predictions as anyone else. There is no sin in making wrong prediction. BUT, a man of his stature should and must be sincere and prescient in making remarks such as Swiss Standard Living and Golden Era etc.
When predictions and remarks made are not realized, it is not just inaccuracies per se, they can be read as misleadings as well, however, I never doubt him the slightest when he said Singapore is not a nation yet.
Forty four years, under his leadership and guidances, later, Singaporeans are at least told one truth by MM Lee Kuan Yew and that is Singapore has yet to arrive.
patriot
Talented
He really thinks himself as a god liao…
toolang
Perhaps you should also report a politician or person who has been right in the forecast of the same national issues, item by item, to contrast with the article to make a meaningful comparison for all to see.
Daniel
“The point here is that we must not be lulled into thinking that MM Lee is always right.”
MM Lee is always right as long as we take whatever his remarks in the opposite way. He is just as Jinx as Ho Jinx.
theforgottongeneration
Excellent writeup on Singapore’s population control. The problems of today are the DIRECT results of short-sighted policies 30-40 years back. The so-called grow-at-all cost mentality didn’t start only in recent years — it started way back then. We took the short-cut in order to get the boat faster to shore, just like we now taking the short-cut with the influx of FT/FWs (or even the Olympics silver). This is what happens when mortals play god. The “talents” we are forced to import NOW are predominantly in their 30’s and 40’s. Think, why we do not have that LOCAL critical mass of 30’s and 40’s? Would we have an “integration” issue now if we had that local mass? Go to coffeeshop and hear a Singlish voice rather than a PRC’s?
LSL highlighted that they looked at the “long-term KPIs” when justifying why the ministers’ pay must be increased. Obviously long-term population sustainability is NOT in the KPI scoresheet. Nor is the 2-3 generations of Singaporeans having poor eye-sight. Nor is recognition for males that have done 2.5 + 13 years NS (i.e. what benefits do they enjoy when their ‘usefulness’ has expired when they reached 40? Benefits that our FTs don’t get?). Uniquely Singapore? Obviously “long-term” could mean a few months as highlighted by TH’s strategy of buying-high-selling-low over the foreign banks.
Anyway, the population control issues will be the legacy of Singapore, or rather of somebody…
Daniel
Mrs Josephine Teo ?
Is she kidding me ? Did anyone notice that PAP is helping Mrs Josephine Teo with some damage controls just after her stupid remark using ShittyTimes where articles keep pouring how good she is to the people ?
“Josephine Teo, MP for Bishan-Toa Payoh GRC, said: “Is it better for Singapore to support an opposition – even if it is not up to mark – in the hope that it could govern well when it overthrows a corrupt PAP? Or is it better to make sure that the PAP does not fail Singaporeans, that it has the strongest team to serve Singaporeans?”
Teo,
so please cut all the wayang and craps… You never speak for the people, you only speak when approved by your master. The eyes can see. Don’t treat Singaporean as gullible. You can fool the people once but you can’t fool the people twice. No matter how ShittyTimes want to make you look like a heroine and people-champion, the overall script and acting give away.
We just sick of you and the pappies.
mice is nice
hi Daniel,
lately, Straits Times has been painting a very positive picture of MIW. mostly this week anyway…
very hsien
50 years in power since 1959, and still clinging on.
I am afraid the damage he did to Singapore is now beyond repair.
Daniel
mice is nice,
exactly. The jinx is on. The more they try to paint themselves positively, the worst we fear because it means that they try to contain certain major screwup and coverup, known and unknown to the public.
Patriot Missile
I am sick and tired of the word “Foreign Talent”.
Please define what is it.
sgean
i would rather give a person without a track record who has conviction a chance, rather than side with a person with a track record of constantly marginalizing me.
tiredsingaporean
the biggest problem here is that when he tried everything to keep his power intake and still failed, he might just turn to using force like the burmese junta did to its own people, who can guarantee that this power crazed ole man would not dare to do about anything he likes, and don’t forget singapore is the only modern nation in asia that supports the burmese junta, we even sells weapons for them to kill their own citizens, what else then do you think he would not dare to do to the citizens here in singaopre.
preston loon
If I were the PM. of a Kiasu and Kiasi society like Singapore,this is how I want to
revert the trend for families who do not wish to have more babies.
Assumed that we have about 25,000to 30,000 abortions done each
year.I would impose a 3 yrs moratorium on abortions and as a result of that,there
will be an additional 75,000+ local babies brought into life.20yrs down the road,we then need not to have 75,000+ foreign talents. Secondly,I would introduce back the ‘population disincentive” policy for families that do not want to have more than two children.
Civil servants will only receive paid maternity leave of about 4 wks from the 3rd
child onwards.2 children-families will only be allowed to buy a two bed room HDB
flats.A hefty income tax deductions given only after the 3rd child.Priority not given
to the children in allocation of good schools.
The policies were accompanied by publicity campaigns urging
parents to “DON”T STOP AT TWO”.Since Singaporeans are so well trained like
seals and always psyched by the ruling government,it will be just as effective
as the last one we had in the ’60s and the ’70s.PRESTON LOON
frank speaks
It is a marketing ploy … call them ‘Foreign Talent’ but they are really ‘Foreign Worker’. They come, they put $$ in Sing, they help to preserve the Sovereign Wealth Fund because it is literally a sinking fund …. It is a Pozzi lie … Beware …
Sorry to say, at 86, his mind is not that sharp anymore. You trust MM Lee at your own peril …
Voter
“MM Lee Kuan Yew is no god and just like any other humans, he is just as prone to make inaccurate predictions as anyone else. There is no sin in making wrong prediction.”
Patriot,
When it comes to him, one man’s mistakes is borne by tens of thousands, if not more. I hope Singaporeans will soon realise it is dangerous for one man to decide everything for the country. Maybe Singaporeans bring it upon themselves, by being apathetic. THen in that case, serve them right la.
doctorwho
so, why is MM not punish for his crime against Singapore?
right or wrong call
Crude oil closed on Friday below US$68. Is MM Lee right now by his comments: “So it will go into reverse.”?
Don’t think it is right to comment on the hindsight.
borderless
senile people are dangerous. they will lead a nation into the abyss..
X
1.68 million foreigners in a population of 3.2 million Singaporeans?
if this isn’t preposterous, i don’t know what is. and yes, i do agree on the minister mentor’s infallible character; his predictions cannot remain correct on every count.
has he not learnt his lesson yet? why is he still giving predictions when his prior ones have begun to go awry?
Merobok
I was told thast in 20 years time, we…the real citizens would be an “endangered”
species !….like the bald eagle in the US.
Perhaps human conservationist may need to think of a plan to preserve the “last of the mohicans”!!!
LKSML
But did the MSM reported this observation by the author for the entire nation to know?
LKSML
“The man and his ideas are not always right”
while it is ok sometimes for layman to not be always right, the more critical issue is whether people believe anyone is ALWAYS right.
delegation by the people.
hmmmmm
There is nothing we can do, but have to accept. After all… “Democracy need not involve the presence of an opposition”
There is nothing we can do about -_- “Having opposition voices does not mean better governance”
Let the elites do what they want no need opposition :)
Lets welcome FT over with open arms….
“I been trying to get a flat for 3 years, now I know why…”
It seems like our own people are not smart enough that’s why we need more FT.. But who are the ones who taught us, our parents, our teachers, our school, or is it our leaders…. Then if that’s the case.. our schools systems need to change and not always look outward for temp solutions… Need more children? We need to make more programs to encourage more baby making… My parents were part of the stop at 2 program, that’s why I don’t feel that I need children or a big family…
The fact is buying a home today for the middle class is not cheap, having to run a family in major burden many of us fear..
We have become a hotel, a motel for visitors to stay our before they move away with their wealth, children and talent.
theforgottongeneration
@12) Patriot Missile on August 15th, 2009 2.58 am
The Singapore dictionary (PAP ed.) defines FT as someone who swears to our govt that they will take root here, have 2.101 children (or more), laps up all the benefits of our society, swears again that their 2.101 children will do NS…. then jump to another country when a bigger carrot is tangled in front of them.
I’m sick of the word “competent leader”. Care to help?
hmmmmm
It is true we have no local talent, we have to admit to that! We are fools ran by people likewise. We are like a cheap hotel, We are prostituting ourselves, We welcome anyone with talent…
The FTs are right… We locals are fools, we are ran using a whoring system.
Will the guest stay over for good? Will you love a prostitute?
Some people think they will, they believe they will. They dip their heads in the sand when times of danger. They look for the easiest way out.
My voice is weak, my hands are tied. I have no talent, my “Ah tao or leadman” tells me that and he tells the world about it.
theforgottongeneration
@15) preston loon on August 15th, 2009 4.20 am
Excuse me, but you forgot to mention the atonement for the babies aborted under the “Stop-at-2″ frenzy. Or for the 3rd, 4th, etc. child that grew up ridiculed by their peers as “unwanted excess” in the 1970’s and 80’s. Like Japs in the Nanking massacre–just act F*****G blur, is it? Yeah, move on, move on….(Oh, remember to pay meself millions $ salary).
Adrian
Hmm, I’m rather new to this blog, and I first visited because I’d heard about how The Online Citizen was THE blog to go to for intelligent opposing views, but I must say that I find the comments to be rather incoherent at times. Or maybe I’m just dumb and can’t understand what everyone else is writing about. :(
Anyway, I think that our dear MM has never been one to mince his words, and he always says what he genuinely thinks is right and for the best of Singapore. And even though he’s been wrong on occasion, he’s made more right calls than wrong ones.
However, I do also believe that while the world is now generally more stable in terms of flat-out war (Vietnam War, Cold War, etc.), it’s also a lot more dynamic and unpredictable (because of terrorism, globalisation, etc.) than when MM Lee was PM.
And so I think that while we definitely should not take what he says as the be-all-and-end-all of Singapore policies, we shouldn’t dismiss everything he says as gibberish either. Let’s just listen to all views and opinions and then make an informed decision from there.
hasta la vista
As much as S’poreans dislike their current treatment and govt policies – what credible, sustainable alternatives are being presented?
Clearly the govt has run out of ideas and sticks to an economic development policy that focuses on low labour costs to compete. This policy worked well during the early years of development, but has now turned into a race to the bottom as neighbouring countries with lower cost structures compete for investments. And these competitors have larger domestic markets as an added attraction.
The problem is that S’pore’s geo/economic position is unique, especially when compared to other small nations. No natural resources like Brunei, no natural hinterland like HK (China) or UAE (MidEast), no historical wealth (ie. old money) and no strategic & wide-ranging tax treaties like Switzerland. The nearest comparison might be the Netherlands, which is also trade-dependent – but they have a natural hinterland in UK and Europe (whereas S’pore’s neighbours are constantly looking to compete with her), and also benefit from its colonial past, plus strong domestic MNCs like Shell, Philips, banks, insurance etc.
Anyone have ideas?
Otherwise the stark reality for S’poreans might be to “put up or leave”.
The current population problems we are facing can be traced back to the disastrous “Stop at Two” policy that was introduced in the early 1970s. At that time, even some liberal NGOs like the Singapore Planned Parenthood Association (SPPA) were used by the Government to spread their “Two is Enough” propaganda, which unfortunately was bought wholesale by Singaporeans. When they tried to reverse the trend upon realising that it had been a mistake, the damage had already been done.
In order for a society to maintain itself socially and economically over the long haul, the required fertility rate is 2.11 children per family. A society will decline if its fertility rate is less than that.
Historically however, no society has reversed a fertility rate below 1.9. In Singapore’s case, where our fertility rate is a mere 1.3, the situation is practically intractible. That is why the Government is trying to welcome foreigners into Singapore, to artificially boost the falling birth rate. But the consequences for the social fabric of our nation can be deep and longlasting.
leekuanyin
[i]Or maybe I’m just dumb and can’t understand what everyone else is writing about.
Anyway, I think that our dear MM has never been one to mince his words, and he always says what he genuinely thinks is right and for the best of Singapore. And even though he’s been wrong on occasion, he’s made more right calls than wrong ones[/i]
you meant he is beyon GOD’s status? its allright for him to makes mi$take$
1 after another? and who is payin for hi$ mi$take$?
from your point of view i believed you haven paid a $ingle dollar for his $in
where are the industries now? you know singapore technolgies inc?
do you know how many peasant$ $ufferred when the singapoor government control shiftted business to china…
so what is the right call to you? makin you to go to china to become a millionaire?
and leaved all your parents here to be all ALONE?
We did follow his edit.
We stop at 2 am and now we are proud parents of more than 2 grown children.
LOL
Yu Yan Seng
Do not blame Josephine teo alone, she is just a product undewr the govt’s education policy cater for the “limited local talents who are obedient, out of touch with people, elistic” they are in parliament to uphold the current system.
With all due respect to MM, he should retire at this riped all age.
He does not understand how many families of mid to lower class are struggling after being laid off in the yet to recover recession, and govt wants foreign talents for their loyalty when they convert to singaporee citizen.
For example, govt sponsored many foreign PHD student s at local uni, WITHOUT any bond at all, while many local student can’t even peep the door frame of NUS and NTU… yet govt FAILED to monitor private schools and we ended with with scandals like Brooks, etc.
If govt don’t take care of locals, then, pls change the ruling party to Foreigner Action Party
Mao Tse Tung Syndrome
MM Lee is just like Mao Tse Tung.
Who can tell him he is out of line?
SPH editors?
The SM?
PM?
No one? That is scary. Thus the loss of billions from Temasek Holdings in the USA bank shares. SPH still thinks no mistake was done.
When you say it is long term of 15 years, we are all incredulous. When it is sold in first quarter and the paper loss becomes a real loss, we were kept in the dark till much later.
When the prices started picking up, did anyone question this huge mistake of realising the losses too quickly?
Father Son and the Holy Ho.
David
He has been playing hard to earn that same Nobel Price Aung San Suu Kyi has achieved. Fortunately, his waywards behaviours towards Singapore citizens par him with those of North Korean and Myanmar leaders that is much hated by human races nowadays. I hope his FAMILEE go underground with their millions wealth and nothing more. No, I have no respect for him because there is no tranquility, no retirements, no money, no space and no happiness, no soulful foods that all Singaporeans are looking for in life. He has not yet build a nation but trying to destroy it and steal our organs when we die. More facts will be unvailed in pap like Renchi and ExNKF in times to come while the ruler will resort to all means to keep their secrets protected with gerrymandering of GRC, threats of peace, bribery using lift at expenses of tax payers money, hard policies to shut out mouth, and cctv to spy how we react. Tomorrow national rally is another of their old boring scam – predictable self-partisan-centered, no substance and threatening words and finished it with some children digital to create a souless fantasy nation that they want us to be proud of. and also expect more praises & adore the foreigners like god coming out from LHL while he stood on top of Singaporeans while weaving his message of lies.
Gigi
If the government really believes in bringing in foreign talent, they should bring in foreign talent in all spheres of society; they should also bringi in foreign talent to replace highly paid ministers and top civil servants. In fact we are already doing it in organisations such as MAS.
If we start bringing in foreign talent to become ministers and top civil servants, I am sure we can get equivalent talent at the cost of maybe 20% to 30% of what we are paying the current batch of leaders.
In short, do not practise double standard in the executing the foreign talent policy.
Moe Gan Thai
Don’t listen to this old man. Stop at 2, graduate mother scheme ……. all failed policy. Last time I respected him because he created S’pore by chance, but now he is a liability to Spore
Two Wrongs Do Not Make One Right
Any self-righteous man, who is overly zealous in guarding his reputation and integrity at the expense of anything and anyone else, cannot and must not be taken as a man of any vision. It is selfishness that motivates whatever such a man does, disguising in the name of something greater and grander.
We have seen enough failures, followed by the failure to admit own up mistakes and failure to take full responsibility for such poor judgments and bad decisions that resulted in millions of us now suffering today.
We cannot and must not again accept any more short-sighted policies and decisions, camouflaged under the name of “pragmatism”, which will seriously affect our children and future generations for the sake of the glory of one man or his family, or his “government”. We owe that much to our future generations.
We must not forget that TWO wrongs DO NOT make ONE right!
CJ
Seriously really… so he says FT good for the economy.
But while the economy was good, were there any differences?
Now the economy is bad, any difference?
It’s either the same, or worse…
Personally, I believe he’s stoking the economy for his administration.
And hence, FTs are crucial in that sense…
Adrian
Sigh. 11 comments since I commented, and no one except Hasta La Vista and Ravi Philemon has said anything constructive. Lots of griping and whinging, but nothing constructive.
Hasta La Vista – Totally agree with you on our unique situation, which is why I believe that half the time the government is really just giving its best guess as to what’s the best way forward for Singapore. The problem is that this guesswork would apply to anyone ELSE trying to govern this country, so it’s really a matter of whose guesswork we trust more.
Ravi – Assuming that you’re right about the birth rate of 1.9 being as yet historically irreversible (since I really don’t have any data to go on), then we’re in a pretty pickle, aren’t we? You seem to know more than I do on this topic, so forgive me if I pick your brains a bit. Besides bringing in more foreigners (talented or otherwise), do you know what other measure or policies other countries with falling birth rates have tried to introduce to reverse falling birth rates?
leeyewkuan
[i]Adrian on August 15th, 2009 12.30 pm Sigh. 11 comments since I commented, and no one except Hasta La Vista and Ravi Philemon has said anything constructive. Lots of griping and whinging, but nothing constructive.[/i]
and yours is?
comeon
a rebutal is bein thrown on you from above post, rebuke if you can
PLEASE be kind enough to share YOUR idea.
Teach us how great the ole great leekuanyew is?
you can’t even post 1 good greatness about him
and here you are labellin us the peasants as whiners/gripers
even bush junoir who send so many youn americans to their deaths in middleeast, nobody hates him as much as our grand ole leekuanyew
you want to poll the audiences or from the kopitiams?
feel free PLEASE! we begged of you…
XiiAoGeNgEnX
I think it’s all a matter of timing. Like someone earlier in this forum said, we now have the benefit of hindsight when we criticize his policies.
In the 70s and 80s, the “Stop at 2″ policy seemed like a good idea, because Singapore’s resources were severely limited. Either you spread out resources for Education, Housing, Health etc etc over 8-10 children, or you focus on 2. It was only in the 90s that it was realized that we had gone too far, and the birthrate was plummeting. If COULD have been saved if the “Stop at 2″ policy was “stopped” during the early 80’s, but no one at that point of time could foresee the possible consequences.
Similarly, in the yr 2009, the “Let’s welcome FT” scheme probably seems like a good idea. Maybe in 2019 or 2029, we can finally have the benefit of hindsight to see if it was actually a good or bad idea.
I personally don’t like the way the FT are disrupting our social fabric. It’s annoying when you see a bunch of AhTiongs in the Kopi Tiam. But as of now, I don’t have a better solution to our falling birthrates+falling productivity+increasing complaints from SINGAPOREAN employers about local employees.
Jackson
If the pap govt continues to be obstinate in its growth-at-all-cost policy and always centers around the concept of economic competitiveness and productivity, eventually Singapore will fail.
I think those who voted for the govt believes that they should and can only vote for govt, but they are so wrong.
theonlinecitizen
XiiAoGeNgEnX (#43),
It is wrong to say this is hindsight.
“The government did not replace the “Stop At Two” policy until 1987 despite having been repeatedly warned by experts, including Prof Saw, about the negative repurcussions for almost ten years.”
YODI
God forbid if the world decides to give LKY a”NOBLE PRIZE”. That will be the end of all end alls.
Does foreign talent inlcude those talented people who offer services of the un mentionable kind. I know they also need to eek out a living also. But do they also come under the category of foreign talent or are they the freebies tthat come with it?
#43
I don’t think that our criticisms are not based on hindsight. The scandinavians countries already recognised the population replacement deficiency back in the 60s and ACTED on it. We also saw the problem but DID NOT act convincingly. Our MIVs were stingy n try to adopt a pesuasive method. Risng costs of living n pressures of education system do not contribute to thoughts of cute children. Sadly, such mentality is taking a stronger hold on young couples nowadays. As a father of 2, I must say it is no joke having to raise a family, looking after yr ageing parents n having to worry abt job security. Along the way comes ICT n other stuff that u find foreigners need not worry abt, so it is not very comforting and I do find myself advising young couples to think carefully abt starting a family. Therefore our population problems is a direct policy mistake of our government who just concentrates on economics returns n ignore the social costs of thier shortsightedness.
XiiAoGeNgEnX
45) theonlinecitizen on August 15th, 2009 12.58 pm
Thank you for the information, I found it very interesting. ^_^V
On the topic of “hindsight”, i think at from its inception till eventual reversal/removal, almost all policies will have its detractors. People will always have ideas on what they think will happen as a result of a policy.
I bring your attention to a certain “Dr Doom”, an economist that for the last several years, has predicted the 2007/08 Wall Street meltdown. Unfortunately no one took him seriously at that point of time, until he was vindicated when Wall Street DID go down.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/176339
Similarly, it is my opinion (and would probably go against your opinion) that it would be too easy to criticize a policy on hindsight simply because ANY policy can be criticized by simply pointing to a dissenting argument and going “HAHH I TOLD YOU SO!”
P.S are you REALLY TOC replying to mee? SHO KEWL!
XiiAoGeNgEnX LuRrB *~*ToC*~* 1-3-1-4 wOrHhX ^_^V
Yang
To (35)
Who said MM Lee cannot be out. Vote him out next election, then he will realise that he no longer needed.
Please lah MM, retire before people force you down. Your son already a PM. For goodness sake, stepdown before your name go further rot.
Andrew Loh
XiiAoGeNgEnX ,
Prof Saw was not the only expert who warned about the consequences.
Further, even when the govt itself realised the adverse consequences, it didn’t abolish the policy. Instead, it introduced a new one – the Graduate Policy.
Only when that didn’t bear fruit, did it abandon both policies altogether.
Hindsight has little to do with it. It was more a case of “I know what I am doing and I’ll say it’s wrong when i say it’s wrong” mentality.
notalone
Failure of Baby Bonus a hindsight too?
Definitely not.
Right from the day one, there were many critics on this Baby Bonus policy that it would fail. The voices of the opponents was not heard and was not seriously taken as a record.
leesjuanpat
In the march of history, despotic rulers all the world over will see their days.
LKY is no different. Through the period of obsolute control tightening even more
the all these years, showed that LKY has carried himself and the government to their own comfort zone of life. The suffering citizens.
What happens to the ordinary citizens is less the governments concerned but to
admit more foreigners into our workforce for obvious reasons of economy.
The citizens of Singapore are being betrayed by the government that 66.6% voted them in. Open our eyes for a better Singapore, by not voting them out in the next election.
The stop at two was the greatest social fiasco of LKY policies, seeing the erosion of the family nucleus with small families. Gone were the days of family cohesion of a bigger family, like my parents time with eleven members.
We long for the passing of an era forced down our throats with the shortsightedness of LKY policies. We can only lament with regret.
LKY a man of great vision from the onset of early Singapore, has changed through the years of strong iron rule and fully enriches himself and his government ministers, relatives, cronies with the citizens hard earned money.
How can many Singaporeans unable to see the exigencies of change for a
better Singapore to have a two party parliament not a monopoly by PAP.
LKY should retire gracefully. It really make his goody son LHL looked lost .
LHL is so quiet, living in his own silhouette. See what rubbish LHL got to say in
Sunday’s national day rally to the nation.
leesjuanpat
Amendment in #52, fourth paragraph……BY VOTING THEM (PAP) OUT IN THE
NEXT ELECTION.
Yang
As for (52), maybe LLh last ND rally.
notalone
One simple gauge of successful social policy….
A low / middle income family has not qualms bearing more children
XiiAoGeNgEnX
It’s funny how the “Stop at 2″ policy has been blamed for today’s infertility among Singaporeans.
Go out to the streets and ask all the young couples you can find. If they have 2 or fewer children, ask them their top 3 reasons for not having children, or not having more children. Chances are, you’ll get things like “stressful environment”, “no money”, “no time”, “no freedom” etc etc.
I REALLY dont think anyone would say “oh because I listen to the Stop at 2 Policy”.
mice is nice
the “Stop at Two” policy is one contributing factor among the few. more so at a time where people abide by the words of the ruling more unquestioningly, by mere persuasion that is. at that time, the cost of living was not as bad as the last few years.
the cost of living & the lack of work/life balance is more pressing recent years. in all, they add up in stages at different time to deter married couples from having children (1, 2 or more).
Andrew Loh
XiiAoGeNgEnX,
I think that’s a simplistic view of the policy. To be sure, that policy was enforced at all levels of society – giving most parents not a lot of room for choices.
In short, it was not a voluntary undertaking by parents. You could say that the policy was a coercive one – you had to follow it if you did not want to disadvantage your children.
And no parents would want that to happen.
XiiAoGeNgEnX
In response to these 2 comments:
58) Andrew Loh on August 15th, 2009 3.15 pm
In short, it was not a voluntary undertaking by parents. You could say that the policy was a coercive one – you had to follow it if you did not want to disadvantage your children.
57) mice is nice on August 15th, 2009 3.13 pm
the “Stop at Two” policy is one contributing factor among the few. more so at a time where people abide by the words of the ruling more unquestioningly, by mere persuasion that is.
Please refer to my earlier comment:
Go out to the streets and ask all the young couples you can find. If they have 2 or fewer children, ask them their top 3 reasons for not having children, or not having more children. Chances are, you’ll get things like “stressful environment”, “no money”, “no time”, “no freedom” etc etc.
I REALLY dont think anyone would say “oh because I listen to the Stop at 2 Policy”.
Furthermore, Andrew, the CURRENT policy gives advantages to parents who have more than 2 children. And “mice is nice”, if Singaporeans were as obedient as you claim we are, then why arent Singaporeans having more children despite the government “encouraging” them to?
Andrew Chuah
15/8/09
Dear All
The state of Modern Singapore must have a good numbers of Opposition MPs in Parliament and currently we only have 2.5 (2 duly elected ie Chiam and Low and 0.5 Ms Slyvia) and these 2.5 are not good enough to make the PAP Ministers and MPs a good run for their money. I am looking at 10 Opposition MPs in the new Parliament should a General Election be called and we as Ordinary Singapore citizen must exercise our votes as precious as possible and don’t be like our fathers and grandfathers who continued voting in the PAP to an extend they had 100% control in Parliament.
The Foreign Talents-FT we have are not Top Guns and all are second and third classes and we are losing our local born Singaporeans many who are Top Guns and time has come to make every efforts to attract them back to Singapore and make them feel at home.
Regards
Andrew Chuah
theforgottongeneration
@56) XiiAoGeNgEnX on August 15th, 2009 2.43 pm
XiiAoGeNgEnX,
Perhaps you are confused with WHEN the effects of the Stop-at-2 policy started. I’m not an expert on demography but U know a baby is not made overnight and the economical effects of that baby need at least 20+ years to be seen. One cannot start asking questions when the TFR is at 1.3; if the goal was 2.1, and it was running at 1.9, 1.8, 1.7, etc. over the years, then actions should have been implemented, and effectively, after 5-10 years trend. Did we get from 2.1 to 1.3 overnight? No? Then what the hell did the govt do when it was sliding 20, 15, 10, 5 years back? Sit back, shake legs & just scheme how to justify paying themselves $m salaries?
On hindsight–it is the law of nature that the future will always look back at what happened in history. It is then also naturally that people will criticize or praise past actions. The critique of effective leadership is always based on hindsight; otherwise why pay people like CEOs big bucks to SUCCESSFULLY implement the future? If a well-paid honcho doesn’t deliver as expected, will people just say he was “unlucky”? If the future is uncertain, and every tom/dick/harry has equal chance of failure or success on hindsight, then why don’t we just put a 5-year-old as PM, pay him/her a lollipop a month and hope for the best? I’m sure those that have served NS will get my drift.
People that poo-poo hindsight are like, I mentioned, the Japanese over their atrocities in WW2. Such people sure want to forget, but per someone herein mentioned, the action of a few affected millions; it is those millions that have to live out the effects of failed policies.
60) Andrew Chuah
20 will be my number
More teeth, more bite
Andrew Loh
XiiAoGeNgEnX,
“Furthermore, Andrew, the CURRENT policy gives advantages to parents who have more than 2 children. And “mice is nice”, if Singaporeans were as obedient as you claim we are, then why arent Singaporeans having more children despite the government “encouraging” them to?”
Isn’t the answer obvious?
One, times have changed.
Two, the policy in the 70s and 80s focused on disincentives and punishment. As I said, parents who did not follow the govt’s dictates disadvantaged their children. So, parents followed the rules, even though they did not like it.
Three, presently, the policy is more about incentives rather than disincentives. But as I said, times have changed. The economy is different, lifestyle is different, education level is different.
To me, there is no comparison between the Singapore of 30 years ago and the Singapore of today as far as lifestyle is concerned. Younger people of today – their thinking, educational level, outlook on life, etc – are different from those of yesteryears.
To be clear, I support the incentives being given out by the govt but I feel they should go further.
Beng
Wah Lau eh….still wanna let foreigners in.
Lim Beh no job already….they still wanna tak kan me!
Seems like they want to force me to become a croupier.
mice is nice
59) XiiAoGeNgEnX
“Go out to the streets and ask all the young couples you can find. If they have 2 or fewer children, ask them their top 3 reasons for not having children, or not having more children. Chances are, you’ll get things like “stressful environment”, “no money”, “no time”, “no freedom” etc etc.
I REALLY dont think anyone would say “oh because I listen to the Stop at 2 Policy”.”
& the point of asking now is? 10 – 20 years ago is different from now. unless you can travel back in time to do the survey, lol…
“if Singaporeans were as obedient as you claim we are, then why arent Singaporeans having more children despite the government “encouraging” them to?”
for this, you can do your own survey in the streets. 8)
59) XiiAoGeNgEnX
“Go out to the streets and ask all the young couples you can find. If they have 2 or fewer children, ask them their top 3 reasons for not having children, or not having more children. Chances are, you’ll get things like “stressful environment”, “no money”, “no time”, “no freedom” etc etc.
I REALLY dont think anyone would say “oh because I listen to the Stop at 2 Policy”.”
& the point of asking now is? 10 – 20 years ago is different from now. unless you can travel back in time to do the survey, lol…
“if Singaporeans were as obedient as you claim we are, then why arent Singaporeans having more children despite the government “encouraging” them to?”
for this, you can do your own survey in the streets. 8)
P.S. – Sorry, forgot to tell you great post!
gynae
here’s an interesting article on the economist magazine titled just last week called “A link between wealth and breeding: The best of all possible worlds?” as below: http://www.economist.com/sciencetechnology/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14164483
It seems like if the Human Developement Index of a country rises above level 9, a developed country’s birth rate, instead of dropping to low level of 1.3, starts to rebound like a J-curve back to 2 (the ideal level). From the human development report website online, our HDI is 0.918 and ranking is 28, and it seems like we are just at the bottom of the J-curve. http://hdrstats.undp.org/2008/countries/country_fact_sheets/cty_fs_SGP.html
Perhaps, as Dr Myrskyla noted in the article, only when the environment becomes super-propitious can parents afford more children without compromising those they already have. It seems like Singapore may not be so called “super-propitious” enough for our birth-rate to rebound. Singapore may want to rexamine why its own goverment policies may have contributed to this lack of “super-propitious” conditions for long-term fertility consideration.
When a man ties himself up in ropes, and then say that he can only move his pinky toes as he is all tied-up, can you be sympathetic?
mice is nice
besides declining birthrates, the outflow of locals talents may very well be that most local talents that left seek a decent or more reasonable wage/remuneration for their talent, not to be constantly told to moderate their salary expectations.
if our elites expect top dollar for top *ahem* talent. why should our well educated younger generation accept anything less?
growing up & enrolling in schools locally all the way to tertiary or Uni is a hefty price, how can we accept a “buy high, sell low” 3rd world (i am thankful for this & that) mentality?
CHewy
MM Lee is wrong with his birth-control policies yet he does not admit to it resulting in the overflowing of the so called “Foreign-Talent”. He was wrong once and he still does not realise having to many foreigners will lead to social problems years later. I personally am not very comfortable with so many foreigners in Singapore.
hopeless
don’t know what right or wrong, just know that i unable to get a hdb now. thanks to our government. no wonder birth rate decrease.
Lobo
Go to every corner in Singapore Kopitiam and watch FT at work, serving, washing and cleaning tables……….all the jobs of the Aunties & Uncles gone to outsourcing of FT so to speak!
BS
I strongly agree that we should start to torch those who bring them in. They need to learn not manipulate votes as and when they like.
Tim
MM Lee is not an oracle, but merely human who also makes mistaken judgments and evaluations. As such if we think he’s a guy who can do no wrong whatsoever, it is already a mistake by itself.
As it is, he makes more and more inaccurate “predictions”. Therefore whether to continue in taking his words as seriously as before, can be said to be whether you wanna believe he’s always the oracle, or just a human being who makes mistakes like you and I.
For me, he’s more of a semi-retired political pundit who has still too much influence within Singapore itself. And that makes it even more likely that he will make a lot of costly mistakes.
population control
The biggest stumbling block to Spore’s progress is oldfart.
30 yrs ago he controlled copulation which screwed our population growth. Being the bloody control freak, he even attempted to control copulation between graduates but was doomed from the start.
Incentives for graduates did not work but disincentives for lesser mortals worked,
and this explains the setback to population growth.
Fast forward and it is still one incorrigible oldfart attempting to control copulation,
using so called incentives. Unfortunately no joy.
As some have pointed out including the naive apologists for oldfart’s policies, it is the stressful environment, uninspiring future, expensive housing, insecure jobs, low pay, high cost of living etc, that are turnoffs for copulation. Mainly self inflicted by oldfart’s govt policies.
As you can see, oldfart’s incentives do not work. How to ? when he is a bloody cheapskate to his people but obscenely generous with himself and his stooges.
Nevertheless I dare oldfart to apply disincentives to control copulation. Like imposing extra tax on singles, less tax rebate for couples who stop at two, reduced annual leave, higher COE, etc, etc .
The point is oldfart was successful in using disincentives to curb population growth but stopped short of applying the same measures to encourage population growth, simply because he knows there will be dire consequences.
The moral of the story is control of copulation is best done in animal farms.
Yamamoto
Hey People…two wrong from our dear old mr LKY doesn’t make it right….but someone should tell him that 3 left does…
ok, that’s cold!
Jim
Hi All,
My view is importing of new citizens will not help our population issue but is actually a slow death in some way.
Why? For example, most of the new citizens from China do not have more than 2 children. Remember they came from a country that officially supports a “1-Child Policy” only till recently. Worse than our former “Stop at 2″ policy.
New citizens from India also normally do not have more than 2 children, expecially those who are of tertiary educational level.
So even when they arrive here, they cannot achieve the 2.11 replacement rate as mentioned by someone here.
Worse still, a significant number of these new couples actually apply for their parents to stay in Singapore. So in all, there are additional old people coming in as well, though I am not sure of the actual restrictions or criteria as set by the Immigration Department regarding influx of these type of dependents. Maybe someone who has insider knowledge would like to comment on this?
So, according to this scenario, our population issue will actually worsen in future!
mmmmmmmmm
It is true we have no local talent, we have to admit to that! We are fools ran by people likewise. We are like a cheap hotel, We are prostituting ourselves, We welcome anyone with talent…
The FTs are right… We locals are fools, we are ran using a whoring system.
Will the guest stay over for good? Will you love a prostitute? will you make love to a prostitute?
Some people think they will, they believe they will for a price or if the price is right. They dip their heads in the sand when times of danger. They look for the easiest way out. They look for the quickest solutions often ignoring justice and equality.
My voice is weak, my hands are tied. I have no talent, my “Ah tao or leadman” tells me that and he tells the world about it and i followed blindly.
starch
mm is 100% correct this time.
Rina
And as history has proven, MM and his team of capable pioneering leaders, had managed to lead Singapore from nothing to something. Strategy changes as the environment and times changed. Policies too, and we are changing, aren’t we?
This article sets out to discredit MM and intentionally highlighted *only* the mistakes he may have made. There is no balanced coverage.
Overall, he has gotten the “big” and important things right, even if the calibration needs to be refined further, the overall intent was in Singapore’s interest.
We cannot simply write off one’s achievements, especially for someone like MM who had done much for Singapore. It is clear that we have indeed progressed since independence and that we remain an open and fair society.
It is not perfect but it is, at least, the best in the region.
78) Rina
My patience was rewarded. After 77 posts, finally you came and wrote something positive. Well done.
frdfd
will we see a prime minister that is migrated from another country and become singaporean next time?
patriot
It is extremely saddening to witness someone reverred so much by his people before the Early Nineties to be so much scorn, despise and even hated today. And what would be the Histories of him and his Family in relation to the History of SIN ???
How do they feel, if and when they read the Socio-political Blogs from their citizens ??
patriot
leeyewkuan
[i]Rina on August 15th, 2009 11.05 pm And as history has proven, MM and his team of capable pioneering leaders,
We cannot simply write off one’s achievements, especially for someone like MM who had done much for Singapore. It is clear that we have indeed progressed since independence and that we remain an open and fair society.
It is not perfect but it is, at least, the best in the region.[/i]
the capable leaders were than dr goh keng swee barkers and rajaratnam inc…
not leekuanyew alone.
today where are those who retired? except leekuanyew himself
how many of you peeps know about foreign populations in singapoor?
you all mereLEE think we only allowed the talented degree holders in?
not on your nelly! First the oversea foreign talented degree holders
than they got married, if lucky they married a singapooriums if not tought luck
now instead of 1 foreign talent, we have 2 and so forth they brin in their spouses
(this is what happennin in europe when the india indian immigrants did that, they multiplied liked flies, this irked the locals angmors who is damn cheese off)
next step being filial children, don’t forget they are only 1 child policy in china
they bring in their parents, and their spouses’ parents (if applicable) worst scenerio is when they have siblins, they brin in the siblin’s log stocked and barrel!
i know of a few family who only have 1 localborn citizen, in his 5 room hdb flat, there are 6 foreign stayers, parents/siblin/nephew and nieces all imported
so now if anybody can add, we now have 6 or 7 foreign talents who take up our jobs instead of 1…
and remember i only mentioned 1 family…
go leekuanyew please do your sum since you are so accurate and clever
if this is called greatness and achiever….than hell must be paradise………
~sigh~
ILoveMyIslandHome
This week has been a emotionally painful week for me as we celebrate National Day. I constantly feel like crying when I’m reminded of a few things.
I love Singapore and her people very much. Yet I don’t recognize my home anymore.
My current and previous companies employs a lot more foreigners (which include PRs) than citizens. When I go to work everyday, I feel like working in a foreign country. The foreigners greatly outnumber us and we feel so alone.
My foreigner colleague (who is a PR) told me, “Your government said you cannot do without us. You guys need us. But to us, Singapore is just a stepping stone.” They crowded together, talked loudly like it’s their country and made crude jokes about us Singaporeans.
I can’t play my favourite NDP song “Home” in the office because I have been taught to be sensitive to the foreigners around me. I have to feel awkward playing a national day song in my very own country, whereas in my primary school days, we sang “Count on me Singapore” with all our hearts.
I see foreigners and PRs constantly getting employed… yet many of my Singaporean friends who just graduated are unable to find a job. They are desperate and helpless. Some signed up for SPUR courses.. yet they are rejected due to space constraint, because a huge number of PRs are also signing up for these courses.
I don’t know how to resolve this pain in my heart. As I walked out of my office past our National Flag yesterday, I stood there and saluted it, just like how I used to do in my NSF day. All because I love Singapore, and because I know that more than one third of our population won’t give a heck about our National Flag.
rwkc
LKY has grown horibly senile and is probably not aware of it himself.
We as voters need to do a favor for him by voting him out in the next elections.
In a study entitled National Security Study Memorandum 200, under the direction of Henry Kissinger in 1974 stressed that only 13 countries are projected to account for 47 percent of the world population increase by the year 2050. This, it is argued, would undermine the stability of countries friendly to the US and therefore harmed the “national security” of the United States.
So thus thru the UN, US convinced (or rather coerced) the world the need for population control in the 70s (except itself of course) , and countries that do not implement them faces economic penalty.
Same recipe for US World dominance, as usual.
Muhamad Nur
Any opposition party wants to take on Tanjong Pagar GRC? It’s time to tell him to go and fly kite.
preston loon
Dear Singaporeans,
Your government’s cultural and social engineerings are no
worse than other major cities of the world.Take for an example in Canada,.Its cities
are so swarmed with Chinese from China that they jokingly call Canada,CHINADA.
Now,all levels of governments -federal,provincial and municipal have to be sensitive
to thier culture,habits,thier way of living and if not,those politicians would be afraid
they may lose their comfortable seats in public office.A colleague of mine just came
back from his home country Bulgaria ,there too its citizens witnessing large influx of
Chinese migrants from China and they are there setting businesses in the cities.
If Singaporeans think that by voting out PAP would somehow
see a better cultural landscape more appealing to them,they are in a piped dream.
Until now,I have not heard or see any of the oppositions stands on this issue.
Andrew Loh
Rina, the point of the article is that MM Lee is not always right. The population issue was his biggest blunder – and a very big one, and also the $50 billion loss by GIC.
RED-man
Not only this old man is not alway right. He has beginning to show sign of greed like any other mortal men. For the record, this old man is the one that argued violently when questioned on why the ministers are subjected to the rocket high salary.
This old fox is beginning to show his tail and claim his nation building credit which does not belong to him other than bringing in foreigner investors to this tiny island.
Non Religious
Yes, I am sure the oppositions are eager for a share of the pie too?
RED-man
If not for Singapore geographic location, I doubt he can succeed in bring people to invest here. Just as proven in the sir Stamford raffles days where there isn’t any saleman to bring the traders into the island at that time.
Maybe he should try bringing people to invest in country like Russia so that we can see how thia old saleman really fare.
theforgottongeneration
@78) Rina on August 15th, 2009 11.05 pm
U are right in that there were positive things out of our leaders, especially in the 60’s, 70’s, maybe 80’s. Let nothing be taken from them in leading Singapore out of the Third World status — sure, some trumpet blowing is due. But how much is attributed to one person or the team is debatable. MM Lee is without doubts an exceptional man then, but he also had some good lieutenants. Can’t imagine someone like that clown of current STTA president been in the ranks of our previous batch of ministers.
Unfortunately times & situation change. Like chess, the opening moves may be inspiring, daring, able to achieve a good position for the player in the short-medium term. Onlookers are mesmerized. But as the game progresses, what was initially thought as a perfect strategy for victory could actually become a deathtrap. This could be because the player did not see the opponent’s change of tactics, or the player was too rigid with his play, or the player became complacent (read: MSK escape),..etc. The main point is the end result.
To me, Singapore has already lost the rooks, knights and queen. But unlike chess, the consequences are not suffered by the player himself; a whole nation is affected here. So, you can blow your trumpet. But what next? Can we ignore the failed policies? Or are you saying there is only good and no evil?
Non Religious
In other words, you can’t trust anyone?
leeyewkuan
[i]Maybe he should try bringing people to invest in country like Russia so that we can see how thia old saleman really fare.[/i]
who on earth would want to come to singapore to invest?
the russians all this while is NOT stupid!
the russians also knows how to count labours and materials value
in russia, labours are abundant, but because of the cold climates many industries would not fared well, so they turned to china with an added twist….
they setup a buyin house/syndicate in singapore as a ^FRONT^, no not money laundryin if some people were thinkin of that especially in the scholarship circles.
the russians are 1 smart cookies, they have the goods made in china with the label printed as assembled in europe makin singapore the buyin shippin houses in between.
whoever is thinkin of makin BIG in singapoor must be dreamin…
our labours cost/ura/hdb factories rentals are priced way way beyon market values, why should i pay a factory rental @ twiced or 3 times the rate i would had paid in thailand or in the phillippines? singapore also charged GST what not cheap hor @ 7% hor…. now you know why singapore tech inc shut down and moved to china themselves..worst some factories are in india new bangalor silicon valley of india…
we are FINISHED………………………
Non Religious
Finished? Some overseas idiot just planted billions of dollars in Jurong. The news must be false then?
Nazryn
Dear ILoveMyIslandHome,
I adore your piece and like yourself, I know too well that I am a proud native of this 645km sq of land. It may not be perfect, but it is a place I would not hesitate to call home.
And like yourself, I find that the influx of foreign immigrants have brought in a considerable amount of social tension in a progressive manner.
Our national pride and identity has been severely molested by leasees of our native land who are already beginning to think of their importance and vitality with , of course, the mega endorsement by our government.
I ask everyone this, with the opening threats to our social fabric being pathed by immigrants who are insulting our society, should we not defend our nationalistic pride and platform. Is the ever growing endoresement by our government to allow rapid immigration an act of deliberation to indirectly manhandle our once upon a time proud home??
If the government really do care for the masses, they would have been more engaging to aroused ideas to form possible solutions, from the grassroot to the elite classes of the soceity to counter situational problems, and in which the only solution for them right now is rapid growth in immigration.
As a cosmopolitan country and coincendantally a city as well, we do need expertise in the global sense. However to depress quality of living to this extend, we need to review who are foreign talents and who are simply just foreigners.
The obsession to atttained desirable instant results by enticing foreign migrants at a large scale is placing the term competition out of proportion.
When nationalistic pride has been severely thawed, history has shown repurcussions to the admnistrators responsible. In a peaceful context, citizens rally to have their voice heard and markign the end with a single shout through electoral process. In another, figures were established that without doubt uses the notion of nationalism to commit attrocities and violence to eradicate the root of the problem (read NAZI). As a proud Singaporean who believes that our country is a matured and pragmatic society, the latter would and should not take place.
And lastly, do judge this, is this act of deliberation an indirect conspiracy to commit treason of a systematic order?
mice is nice
where do the billions go to? black holes like GIC & TH? :P
seriously
i have no clue to what you hv written,,,hahaha
At least 98%
Doesn’t matter what or how many times MM Lee is proven wrong.
But he never got it wrong on one VERY VERY IMPORTANT THING. And for the past 44 years. That is every election, PAP won at least 98% of the seats.
That’s why he is still needed as mentor to ensure this will happen again and again in future.
Don’t you think this is very important?
FPC
He was not right during the elections.
He imposed his might during elections.
There is a huge difference.
FPC
Local talent is more important
beclear
You mean blood sucking talent?
LKSML (u r what kind of peeper?)
last time, why control popu
now time, why need so many millions more import?
only a difference of a few decadesin planning horizon leh.
so how come wan?
i regard that man hi hi last time wan u knoe?
No More
OK, I’ll be the first one to say it: No more China Ah Tiongs.
Tick Tock
Unemployment rate here getting higher and still let in so many migrants……how to sustain like that? Build more casinos is it?
One problem haven’t solve yet and now add more fuel to the fire…..Definitely a social time bomb in the making.
population control of pests
The reason why the PAP govt is so bold in forcing its population control policies on its citizens is because the citizens themselves have failed to control the population of PAPies in parliament.
To me, that’s the best way to deal with pests…..LOL
Integrity
The population control program did have an impact of our fertility. But the strongest factor of our self-sterilization is of 2 factor below.
1) The system actually bestow tacit edge to woman in terms of education. Giving woman education is the best birth control program compard to all others as observed by many academics.
2) The real serious decrease in birthrate occurs during the Goh Chok Tong’s property enhancement program which caused running inflation in housing. Cities which hign property prices are without exception low in procreation. And when such event occurred, people would acquire habbits and mindset that favors low birthrate for a very long time and a future decrease in property prices would not be able to alter such culture.
PAP is the blood sucker culprit of all our woes. They always try to protray themseleves as sage and wise guys.
X.X!!!
Proves the point. He IS a SENILE man. Trying to cling on to his power and to HOPEFULLY, gain the trust of sgreans.
unfortunately, that will never happen. Who the hell in the right mind will believe the crap that he says: unless you’re speaking abt his “dogs”, then thats different.
Talk more rubbish? He nvr get slam b4 thats why. In power for too long, think everything all merry merry in his ivory tower.
RED-man
Reason for old man action:
in the past, he do not foresee Singapore will be what it is today and worry if Singapore will be dragged down due to over populated. It will increase overhead and profit do not confirm to sustain the overhead (poor LKY)
In the present, he has to quickly bring in ready foreigners to run his business, because now his family, relatives and associates basically run the whole country like a company (now he is the towkay LKY).
So you see ladies and gentlemen, you and me are simply like a business tools to him be it past or present. We are just number game. The reason why most Singaporean get rich or well to do, is because Singapore is a country with no natural resources. Thus, it is important to bring up the wealth of average Singaporean in order for him to reach his goal.
However, in the present situation where the whole world can move their assets easily from one country to another. So, why need Singaporean who cannot catch up
any more? It sound very harsh, but fellow Singaporean, you are just the tools. For this, I really hope Singaporean can really wake up in the next election. Any later, I am afraid, the country will eventually fight against one another to resolve this. Meaning split into pro-pap and pro-alternative.
theforgottongeneration
Can’t trust anyone? Well, notice the Bishops have prevailed & vindicated over their stand on “Stop-at-2″ — and don’t even have to pay them $m salary.
So far, don’t trust:
1) idiots with billions of OUR money investing in ABC learning, BoA, Micropolis, etc.
2) posters using different nicknames;
3) TBD
@96) Nazryn on August 16th, 2009 3.22 am
“…If the government really do care for the masses, they would have been more engaging to aroused ideas to form possible solutions,…….”
The “Stop-at-2″ till the current “Import FT/FW en masse” is one continuous policy. Since when was the general populace ever “engaged” for their views of such policies? In the 80’s and 90’s, when the fertility rates were 1.9-1.7, nothing was done because they already knew how to cross the bridge when we come to it — being masters of trade, simply import lah! So what the social faultlines are then screwed — the top echelon knows they won’t be affected (in fact, they have since entrenched themselves with comfy fat pays, haven’t they?). Having really pro-family initiatives back then would have been possible, but that would only disrupt the GDP momentum. Sorry, making $$$ more important than making babies.
It is roo late
to regret !
Pick yourself up and make preparation to be foreign talents elsewhere.
but how can creme dela ?
i still cannot der understood how the come he can der be wrong?
but then,
1. yes, there was a stop at 2 policy.
2. yes, there has been welcoming new immigrants – to add a few more millions more.
so how? i confused liao!
FPC
the strongest team according to who?
The strongest team that had failed investments and realised at 30%.
?
wager the dow
”
114) FPC on August 16th, 2009 5.05 pm the strongest team according to who?
The strongest team that had failed investments and realised at 30%.
?
”
but how does anyone know what is the absolute total Damage?
leeyewkuan
[i]Non Religious on August 16th, 2009 2.58 am Finished? Some overseas idiot just planted billions of dollars in Jurong. The news must be false then?[/i]
i knew someone liked you would come alon to rebutt/defend
do you see any hightech jurong island in thailand or phillippines includin china?
we are alway numero UNO in oil refinery
thats is our only factor simply because we invested in the most expensive machineries even malaysia tried to compete with us on oil refinery technique, they failed…..
so as a foreign invester in chemical where do you want to go?
just liked buyin a computer must we lanlan see billgates?
Sadman
LKY is out-dated. He must step down. Otherwise Singapore will be definitely screwed-up deeper by him.
blackfeline
he has NO GUTS to face his own people!
Goh Keng Swear
We can recalled in the 70s, how MOE punished the 3rd child by allocating them to a far away school, these kids thave grown up today, their living might have suffered from poor academical records.
The government also scrutinized some religious groups who opposed 2 is enough policies.
The 2 child policy yield great results, today we have 0.8 kid per couples… World Class Government, BEST leadership with GREAT FORESIGHT indeed !
Playboy_Rick
Got this from TKL blog. It shows the benefit of Sinkaporean (i know…a pun) vs PR.
http://0000pcj.people.delphiforums.com/downloads/Benefits_of_Singaporean_vs_PR1.htm
For you to digest
Ahgong
Well, in chinese , we called this kind of article as ” horse back cannon”.
If the old man is so powderful, long time back he always united malaya and would not shed tears on our independence day. He aren’t no prophet.
In decision making/ info science, we know that decision always has to be made in the absence of data or 100% intel. Someone just has to do the decision making, regardless of outcome may or may not be happy for all people.
mice is nice
biggest team = strongest team?
productive anot leh?
10 men do 11 -12 men job? 100% commitment & responsibility?
lol…
prettyplace
I had a chat in Melbourne with friends about the ordeal I go through in ordering food at stalls in Singapore….they had lived here before…
We all had a good laugh….
Singaporeans are going to be a laughing stock ..and thanks to PAP policies.
It’s time to boot them out and most of the PAP guys out.
It’s the ballot box people wake up….or your children will be the ones to suffer.
old citizen
In his message he urges Singaporean to …”treat new citizen as equal”….
I find it very difficult to bring myself up to be equal to them. So how to treat them as equal?
Jackson
LKY thinks he’s god, can control population, hw many children n old pple, but is actually is the reverse.
very lee
Stop at two is right so that there is enough places at school. FT is right so that they can marry our people and bring them overseas to retire when they passed their prime age. Thus less burden for our society and better retirement system overseas. Here is a place to work and earn/save money. Not a place to have family and live your old age.
theforgottongeneration
@113) but how can creme dela ? on August 16th, 2009 4.46 pm
Maybe cos the leader at that time tell Singaporeans to stop at 2 but he himself stopped at 3?! Very confusing, lol?
ahkong
Again MM Lee talks as though it is not his doings. Remember the family control measures then the graduate marries graduate policy then the SDU SDS etc…. imagine a politician doing social engineering what will you get? His skin must be thicker than elephant pretending again not his doing and misjudgement. Anyway we are paying huge sum of salaries to him and his cabinet and parliament for making mistakes after mistakes.
Fullofflies
Don’t teach your grand father to suck eggs.
30 to 40 years ago there is no instant coffee or tea.
To give birth to baby is easy, like chicken laying
eggs, delivery cost only few cents.. specialist
doctor never heard off….
Stop at 2, I choose one, because my father had 3.
I am now 67 years old, still can tah han one night stand.
everyday sit down cross legs, and shake handballs.
One son university graduate with a master degree married
to a girl also university graduate.
Wah sooo happy lah. durian married durian sure got durian
grandson…up till today no durian, blue bird, chee ham,,,,,
So scold who…????
Last time son listen to father, what father say die die must
do, don’t do people say bad son.. bo ka see..
So let the old grand father do what he like, and die die
must listen, because one day we the sons will be like
him……Die Die must follow….
Angelina
Supposing there was no ‘Stop at 2′ and there is no ’shortage’ of Singaporeans, do people think we will have enough ‘talents’ for the Govt’s economic progress? Our local grads are jobless while we need more FTs. Why and why did the MM not address this issue too? My guess is the Spore education system is very questionable whether it is truly World Class, and the meritocracy system is highly damaging to building childrens career dreams.
Integrity
Our schools only produce graduate who survives by talking.
Take a peep in the research lab apart from DSTA, how many local grad you see?
The influx of PRCs engineers depress the wages so much that there is almost no difference in terms of real income between SG and Shanghai.
LKY thinks he can get scientific talents to work in sweat shops while depressing wages. He is day dreaming.
To point it straight, we are no longer attracting talents, we are getting only china 2nd class graduate, and sooner, we can only attract those who cannot find employment in China.
Meanwhile, LKY pander the very best of our local graduate with high pay doing almost nothing in civil service, so as to stiffle a potential supply line of elite for opposition. In the rest of the world, the very best goes into productive sector. Singapore is a pervert system.
singaaporen
singapore has about 478,000 PRs and 3,164,000 Singapore citizens in 2008. the total population of singapore in 2008 was 4,839,400.
4,839,000 – 3,164,000 = 1,675,000 foreigners in singapore
34.61% of our population are foreigners thats about 4 out of 10 people
http://www.singstat.gov.sg/stats/themes/people/popnindicators.pdf
Fullofflies
In Chinese saying Hero Never Cry….
Don’t cry for me Singapore….
He never fail in what he do…
until that day when he was asked to leave…
The opportunity to be the Prime Minister
of Malaysia was beyond reach……..
The Charming Prince could forsee the future..
To save the King, the Prince banish his best
friend…….
Fullofflies
You think grand father is stupid meh..
If did not stop at 2…..
What will happened, there will be alot of Brigadier Generals,
wise alexes ministers and all smart Ladies and Gentlemen
producing all of smart and genius babies….
What will happened to grand father 2 sons and 1 daughter
and grand sons and grand daughters……?????
In a class of stupid AhKong is clever……
In a class of clever Ahsoon is stupid…….
Already stop at 2, Ahsoon need AhKong and friends
to help in the office…..
Imagine what will happened if did’nt stop at 2…
Singapore will be the best place in the world
to live and stay….
george
The PAP regime seem to think they could switch on or off at will the population level anytime they like. The issues with many young family are living space and family income which are the determinates of whether to start a family or not and how many. Most young couple will settle at two as the cost of bringing up children is so expensive these days. It was true, in the past (1950-60)family with 6 to8 children was fairly common as I myself came from a family of 8 excluding the parent. Cost of living was bearable then but modern Singapore with high housing and food cost really forced young family to decide what they must give up to start a family. My borthers had only have one child each as they had decided they could not affort to have more. It is economic considerations and living space that is holding back family having children. The government have to address these issues to resolve the low birth rate in the country. Just calling the population to have more without addressing those issues is like talking to a wall.
A govt always in denial of their mistakes will always deny the people of their rights. The root of the problems can easily be solved in the ballot box.