It is sad that a man whose views proved to be right were so badly treated by most people in Singapore.

Is it worth to fight for s’poreans?

He lost his dignity and wealth.

Sad sad.

Without the backing of the PAP, and with no Straits Times to spin propaaganda, its amazing how minister George Yeo look like now.. Nothing. He can’t even defend the government policies on a personal basis. Talk about conviction.. I despise this kind of people.

George Yeo now scared, donno what to do. Is Yeo a leader? Doesnt sound like got politician skills also. is he intelligent? After his series of missteps I am not sure now. So how did this man become our minister?

to -3), don’t worry. ST will start spin stories to a) play down this debate as fun and not serious , just like what Goerge tried to do. b) portray George in a good light. c) character assasinate CSJ.

Old tricks of ST la. But you would be surprised how good they are at it and how Sinkapoors believe the newspapers.

All ministers are compliant to Lee godfather LKY and his nepotic clan.
Whoever dare to speak without first consulting LKY or for that matter LHL,
will be marked for demotion and condemned.

You all remember the MP for Joo Chiat, a nice man, was Minister of State for
a few portfolios, just because he is popular with the majority of Chinese speaking, and spoke a little more in the press, he was demoted to only a MP.
Other Ministers of State were promoted to Senior Ministers of State and full Ministers. Vivian balakrisnan rocketed himself up and up because he “licked LKY’s boots”.

Ever guess why Dhanabalan, Wong kan seng, Mah boh tan, etc etc are sitting
so comfortably in their present seats… because they are like thistles, where the wind blows and sold their soul and conscience to bow to Godfather.

George yeo is a nice man but a lame duck, he cannot make his own decision even in a simple debate. Well, well………

Looks like CSJ has been wanting to debate issues, but PAP been avoiding him, instead continuously putting CSJ down. I wonder what the PAP is afraid of. Maybe they aren’t as good as they make themselves out to be.

please! without LKY and the elite civil servants, u think ministers like georgie yeo are that good??? Sinkies are kena duped!!

Protocol has taken over Conscience.

The road ahead is bleak.

he who pays the piper calls the tune. dun be so naive about politics, mr. chee. time to be realistic about how politics is conducted in this country. besides, the majority are happy with the way it is run, so let them continue in their blissful ignorance.
for me, keep my head down and live my life, just as many ministers, mps etc. bo chap but make some noises sympathetic to the masses. thats all!

Actually what this “challenge” tells us all is that we need an independent avenue to host debates on national politics and public policy between politicians. There is no way all PAP parliamentarians are uniformly in support of every PAP policy. If not for the Government Whip in place, would Parliamentary debate be so constrained? Moreover, PAP keeps most of the debate in-house through the use Government Parliamentary Committee (GPC). The GPCs is where PAP formulates its policies but GPC is in-house thing for PAP. We will never know what differences transcend inside PAP unless GPCs are replaced with Select Committees.

He could have been a boot licker, might be promoted to dean of NUS and holding senior Police position in reserve. But he chose to go down this path… all his family suffered and he was cursed by a lot of ignorant Singaporeans.

Sympathise with him.

1) FPC,

I like your quote, it also shows that with so much wealth & dignity, like George Yeo and the other MPs, they aren’t so passionate in fighting for you, or other needy people.

to -3) Interested: It’s ok if you don’t belief in fighting for a better and fairer society. That’s what politic is about, not waiting for doomsday till it’s too late. Anyway, luckily there’re other Singaporeans who aren’t like you. even if we’re in the minority, even one is enough.

I am still waiting for him and the PM to responses to my request of all those who make decision to invest the Aljunied Town Council Sinking Fund. Still waiting!

I’m sorry, guys. i’m taking a neutral stand here and i think Dr Chee’s call for public debate, and then putting George Yeo on the stand is a bit off.

If its a debate, why is going one way? Who is Chee to demand someone’s personal opinion in a public forum, and then puts him in a corner if he doesnt want to answer, or responds in giving the govt line?

George Yeo definitely has to stick by his guns. He is a representative of the PAP and the govt – like it or not – so he will stand behind his govt’s messages.

What personal opinion he has is his, and he has the right not to share it – esp in a public debate where Chee is making on behalf of HIS party.
The kind of questions Chee asks are loaded questions, that will lead to Yeo going on a defensive and give standard answers.

e.g. if you are a senior board member of DBS and someone asks you for an opinion, even if its personal, that DBS has cheated people in the minibond saga, how would you answer? Every company, every political party would want to send out the same message.

As much as he’s done in highlighting the shortcomings of the PAP govt, and all the suffering he’s faced in the name of “truth” in his eyes, Chee’s style of politics is off-putting. Chee’s an idealist, but the “showmanship” style of politics he’s choosing to engage the govt, just doesnt go with me. in my eyes, what Chee is doing in playground bullying.

But thats just my opinion.

Let’s be realistic. In most companies, employees are very obedient to their
employers and esp those companies where bosses are loud & always seeking
glory for themselves (just becos there’s one or two big clients supporting the company), u will find ‘boot licking’ employees for the simple reason that their
lifestyle depends on their obedience. This is what most Singaporeans have in
them , the ‘kiasi, kiasu’ syndrome.

Hi Aygee,

George Yeo doesn’t have the right to share personal opinions that conflict with the Government. He is bounded by Cabinet regulation to do so. This practise is inherited from the original British Westminster Model of Government.

For the record, I think George Yeo is NOT unintelligent. The problem is that many of the PAP policies that he has been challenged to defend are, in fact, INDEFENSIBLE.

So far, I have not found a single parliamentary debate over controversial issues that I did not dislike. The debates were mostly “going through the motion” with no depth and certainly no satisfactory resolution. Controversy ensues.

Empty vessels makes the most noise!

It is intriquing that people can still claim the Chee spoke the truth, when he cannot even substantiate or prove his point in many of his allegations against the PAP!

“This practise is inherited from the original British Westminster Model of Government.”

so change the model to one which leads to unending debate between like…muslim ideology against christian ideology or capitalism vs socialism/communism etc?

where will this lead to?

Empty vessels makes the most noise!

It is interesting that there are still people who claim that he spoke the truth when he cannot even substantiate or prove his allegations against the PAP.

In order for the opposition parties to move ahead, we should have level-headed people who can argue facts, present constructive criticism and solutions in projecting alternative views, not just being a loose-cannon shooting everywhere without knowing what the objectives is all about.

It is obvious Chee has a personal vendetta against PAP.

Chee’s tone is like that of a gangster. I am more impressed with George Yeo.

What has Chee done for the poor people which he mentions? Chee should stop being a bleeding heart and stop grandstanding.

He talks about transparency and accountability. Maybe Chee should start by telling us where he gets the money to survive all these years and how come his party (with so many bankrupts) can still host events with props and food, and even book posh hotels to hold them.

Transparency, Chee? Why don’t you start with the SDP?

Comment #16 Oxford Dude,

Thanks for sharing that info.

But it doesnt change the fact that he represents the Govt and the PAP and he has to stand behind the organisations he represent.

I’m not brownnosing here, but i see him as one of the more in-the-know leaders, having a feel of the ground and reaching out to a younger people. How many of the post-65ers, esp at a ministerial level, socially network? At least he’s trying.

But back to the point of the post, again i say, Chee should pick his fights, and pick the right platform. No point putting someone on a stand and asking him for a personal opinion.

This is no different to him shouting at Goh Chok Tong in a hawker centre asking for a debate during one election period.

One can always have more class, more dignity and be more civil.

Is Chee showboating for himself, wanting to be victimised, wanting to be a martyr – or is he truly on an agenda to make Singapore a better place?

His antics has clearly blurred my opinion of him.

Wowee,, the PAP internet brigade has come. Old propaganda like CSJ as lunatic and gangter. LOL.

There’s nothing gangster-like in CSJ’s facebook exchange. What is apparent is George Yeo failing to respond credibly like the minister that he is!

if the christians rule the house, the muslims will not be happy. likewise, if the muslims insist on imposing syariah laws, the liberals will not sit still and let pass a violent protest.

basically, it is the rich vs the poor. the haves vs the have-nots or the successful in life vs the not so successful in life.

these debates have been on going for centuries and it is potentially a hotbed for violence and what have you….

that said, i am sure, the challenger will not be too eager to oblige himself too once seated in ivory tower?

CSJ should do something more productive as there is no political points to be gained by doing this. Even if he managed to make GY look stupid, so what. Is it going to get SDP a place in Parliament by doing so?

hypocrite.. that’s why we need democracy, accountability and transprency. The things that the opposition are fighting for. should they sit in your ivory tower they can still be kicked out.

is the PAP as clean as they say? Can we kick out the PAP?

#6

Spot on dude….Ministers are very ordinary people made to look like Demi-Gods. My fren was an ex-PA high ranking staff who left coz he could no long stand the boot licking told me one incident in which he had to to a organisation plan for a major fund raising event. He wrote down the speech, the profile of everyone sitting around the minister and even bought the donation the minister was supposed to give at the last minute, coz he forgot. In the end, the people around the Minister were very impressed that he knew what kind of charity work they were doing and never paid him back for the donation gift he bought and told him to claim from govt funds. Value of the donated item: $12.50. So small item also cannot pay……..

I think letting Singaporeans finally realise how ordinary and useless George Yeo really is, is very productive!!! Kudos to CSJ! !!

Singaporeans, it’s up to u whether u want useless ministers, or find those with passion and conviction

Debates are part and parcel of political life in most developed countries. As long as it is done properly, I don’t see why we should shy away from them.

jocke – please dont judge me if you dont know me. just so u know, i’m not for PAP nor SDP. If you can be bothered to, please do a search on previous comments i’ve made on previous postings on this blog, before you judge me.

With all due respect, some of the responses here is exactly the style in which CSJ is taking the conversation with George Yeo, and probably the audience that CSJ wants to talk to.

Let’s turn the table around.

What if it was George Yeo going on facebook and asking Chee – “what have you done for singaporeans lately, outside of screaming bloody murder abt PAP’s policies? What suggestions have you put forth for debate that will make singpaore a better place? What have you contributed?”

There is a more matured dignified way to debate, and there are platforms for engagement that people will listen to.

I’ve never liked the way PAP handles any opposition to their policies and the way they run the country. There are plenty of PAP’s/ govt’s policies that i dont agree with and i wont bother to list them out – because many of you would have the same grouses. So much so that i’m still pondering whether i’ll return to singapore one day.

But to me, Chee scores very low in my credibility meter. He has an axe to grind with PAP, and doesnt seem to me as someone who has a bigger national agenda in hand, outside of opportunistic grandstanding – which he’s very good at.

He expresses himself so well in his book, which i’ve read – a true idealist.

Yet, those ideas are forgotten, because of his antics. He lost my support in him with his hunger strike and shouting at GCT. Thus, I have written him off as a credible opposition member.

I’ll be more open to hear Chiam, Kenneth Jeyaratnam (may he carry his father’s fire in him), et all than CSJ any time, because they put forth a more sensible conversation whenever they go out into the public.

Anyway, thats all i have to say on this. Thanks for hearing me out.

Celluloid.. u referring to Singaporeans. depoliticized citizens who never tasted democratic life. they dunno wat it is.

It takes much more guts and intelligence and conviction to argue against the incumbent. For all those people who start their nonsense about Dr Chee’s behaviour in asking those hard questions are either complete morons or just trying to bootlick their masters.

It is a safe practice, ensuring their continued earnings and rankings in their own world. For those who speak out against the incumbent run the risks of being targeted for financial ruin, emotional upheaval and career derailment. That so many have done so and are still doing so is clearly based on their own convictions and beliefs which supersedes their own personal interests in the area of wealth, health and sanity. That ordinary citizens can cast aside their own personal interests for the sake of public interests contrasts intensely with what our ministers, in this instance, Mr George Yeo’s inability to make a clear stand in the public’s interests.

For example, he can either use his influence as a minister to make changes or he can leave if he thinks it is impossible to do so. That he has stayed but make no attempts to change does not show leadership, and leadership is what ministers are all about, isn’t it? On the other hand, Dr Chee has shown immense leadership, not motivated by money or power, in fact, sacrificing health, wealth and sanity.

The least any sane person should do is to keep quiet, rather than heap abuses on his sanity and criticising him. Why, he is not even on your payroll, his salary is not paid from your taxes. You have a right to question those who are on your payroll and not those who are not. It is clear from the question that someone asked for Dr Chee to pick his fights that they are clearly agitated by his strategy. Are they asking him to pick a fight with MM Lee? Has he not? Are they asking him to pick a fight with SM Goh? Has he not? Where would they want him to pick his fight?

Actually it is our fight and the sad state of affairs now, with foreigners taking our jobs, our housing, our MRT seats and our country is precisely because not enough people pick fights with those who just bulldoze policies that are not in our interests. For example, we were told to stop at two because Singapore is too small to have more people. Then now we are told that Singapore needs more people. Nobody picked any fights or at least it was snuffed out before it can begin. The end result is that we and our children are the ones who have suffered.

It is truly unbelievable that there are still Singaporeans who bury their heads in the sand like an ostrich and still biting the hand that is trying to defend them all this while, questioning on the legality and the direction the hand is coming from to defend our interests when clearly it is the morality that is in question.

Singaporean,

Please paragraph your comments instead of posting it as one whole chunk of words.

I have paragraphed your last comments for you.

Thanks.

Chee is not god. Post #33 above sounds like it’s from some Chee fanatic.

The point is George Yeo has shown himself to be the most articulate amongst the PAP stooges.
Dr. Chee has chosen one of their best to debate, so how can it be construed as bullying ?

It would be bullying if he had insisted on a village idiot like Lim Swee Say. Incidently if we look back at what had been transpiring in parliament with the 82 PAP stooges, then it is long overdue for a public debate.
A live telecast with international media presence would be fitting. About time the highest paid politicians on this planet show the rest of the world their worth !

To some of the posters who think Dr. Chee is a lunatic or gangster-like, then I have to point out to you blokes, we have a Chimp whose deeds and words can impress the likes of Mugabe, Kim, Castro, Burmese junta members, etc.
And this Chimp needs no introduction ! LOL

log out,

Please post more. You are making Dr Chee famous with every post you contribute. Viewship is sky rocketing .Thank you very much.

Talk about being a politically-mature society. In any political debate, the beneficiary must always be the people.

Here we are getting comments from every post on whether who makes a better politician. How sad. The question I am interested in whether this sort of debate is going to do any good for you and me.

Personally, I think GY would do good to answer the questions put forth to him instead of being so systematic and robotic with answers that we have already heard from all four corners of Singapore and beyond. It will do you and me a world of good if he can personalized his opinions and tell us why he supports policies that prevents the lesser mortal from living a decent life -unless one is still so blind not to see the number of people struggling to make ends meet. This will surely help him connect further with the lower rungs of society, if that is truly his intention in the first place. What he must not do is to presume that the people are already on the government’s side believing every thing it says about CSJ. I think the swing to support someone like him, especially after JBJ’s passing, cannot be counted out, or under-estimated.

As for CSJ, many have question his integrity as a politician, and even as the man that he is. What they cannot question about him is his commitment in getting the government to account for the things they do. Just like JBJ, he is keeping the government on its toes and this can only be good for you and me. I dread to even think of a Singapore without committed people like JBJ and CSJ. I wonder how far worse we would be right now if not for them.

So, GY, go engage the man for our sake. Let us hear your honest views, as a man of integrity over that of a mechanical politician – if you can, that is.

You can’t blame all these Pap MPs, they got mouth, but can not talk. You pay them $3 million, they will accept. You pay them $1 million they also accept. They don’t have a sense of direction. How to debate ?? They scare to say wrong thing, and annoy their master. Just like a dog, you give biscuit, it will eat. You give a bone, it will eat also.

Dear People,

I think what CSJ has done is very commendable. If the PAP wants a presence in cyberspace – then of course the PAP must face questions – not only by CSJ – but by any member of the public.

The questions posed by CSJ are FAIR, PUBLIC INTEREST ISSUES. I am glad that CSJ took the initiative to ask George Yeo about these things. I want CSJ to ask the PAP hard questions like these.

Thats what I expect a good Opposition to do. Not just Wayang Party here and there during election time and then act blurr after that !

I support the idea of a public debate. After all – you think the PAP will debate with you on these issues ? They will find an excuse not to.

The point is that we now have an avenue where a transparent debate on policy can take place. I salute CSJ’s efforts.

Take on the PAP by debating with them in cyberspace. If the PAP has valid arguments – then please respond. Why are they scared to respond if they are so correct in their policy making ?

Do not put CSJ down in you do not even have the courage to put your name down here ! At least CSJ is doing something good for the people. What are you doing ?

At least we now have a credible voice in cyberspace.

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

Why Singaporeans are worse OFF than cigarettes?

Someone in this blog declared that it is difficult to control immigration and therefore the govt cannot control immigration and by consequence, should let any tom dick and harry in.

Every country that tax smoking cigarettes heavily has the problem of people smuggling cigarettes in.

The reason is obvious: the money is too good.

Singapore have the same problem. However, the govt has invested into new technologies and have imposed new rules on the look of the cigarettes sold in singapore.

Evidently, this is make obvious those jokers who smoke illegally smuggled cigarettes in Singapore and charge them and embarrass them.

The reasons for the investments and new rules are obvious: taxation from these cigarettes are a large revenue for the govt. In view of the current failure in investment in GIC and TH, we know the govt needs the money and it is doing something in its interest.

the downside of the immigration policies of the last few years had been much lamented and even the minister GY claimed that some enterpreneurs have been feeding off the immigrants. Anyway, S’poreans are worse off. That’s for sure.

But we don’t see the govt investing in new technologies and rules to stop people flowing into singapore?

So, Singaporeans are less important to the govt than cigarettes.

An internationally infamous pariah government like the PAP, lacking in any values of democracy, juctice and equality, and which is tyrannical and extremely exploitative of its own citizens wouldn’t be able to produce a single member, let alone the minnow George Yeo, who will be able to debate our future Prime-Minister of Singapore, Dr. Chee Soon Juan. Let LKY or gotokkok or LHL come forward, if they got the guts, to debate Dr. Chee Soon Juan. PAPies, why the reluctance to debate what affects every Singaporean. Oh isn’t it because your position is indefensible. Even Obama, a real leader of the world is confident to debate anybody. PAPies totally lack any balls. What a shame.

Dear People,

If the PAP is so good and so right in their policy making – then why not have a public debate ? Why scared to debate in the open ?

If your conscience is clear – then please talk in the open.

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

If one loses the independence of views(a fundamental Human Rights, Citizen Rights and Individual Rights etc) just because one is a member of an establishment, it simply sounds unreasonable. Where is the conscience(to speak and do the right things) and where is the Rights as a human/citizen ?

Joining an eastablishment does not turn one into a dog or becomes a blind follower. A good man should choose a virtuous master ! Yes, we know many a despot has his ‘khakis’, cronies and runners, they hve their Rights to be blind followers but there are others who have their Rights to uphold their own integrities and or to challenge injustices.

patriot

It is indeed quite puzzling that our MPs and Ministers, who, based on their salaries, seem to be worth their weight in gold, refuse to engage and debate with CSJ, who was an inspector at his highest rank. Maybe they would want to debate with me, I was only a private in my NS days, never promoted because they deem me not good enough. So maybe the general will be willing to debate with a private, or still not good enough for him? I will just speak from my heart.
They should not be afraid to debate, since we are not talented at all and they are. So talents vs non talents, what are they afraid of?

Singaporean 45)

CSJ was not an Inspector. He is an Assistant Superintendent(NS)

Dear Dr Syed Alwi ,

Usually there is only one answer to that…you can’t come out in the open to talk about it as it is not glorious and will invite trouble

Wish the PAP will dare to publicly debate their policies for once.

what’s there to hide?

Dear Yamamoto,

Well in that case – I will vote for SDP.

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

Ah, my apologies to CSJ, now I can see that maybe they are afraid of an ASP. What about me? confirmed private. Nothing to be afraid of, lowest rung in the army. Private vs General, no match from any angle, right?

i used to be pap supporter till i see the way pap gets sway sided to most singaporeans, i realised ‘hey, now seems that we have a tough oppt guy by the name CSJ whom i look forward then. but was disappointed the way he behaviours himself and later dropped him out too.

but then again, i must say that he has the gut and quality (if he can really his way of conducting himself properly) to good oppt leader like any countries strong hold of oppt party. i sense though of this triad character, to me he is one example of truth democracy person. not even MM would match him. look at the other oppts? CSL must get house and act in order and be a real genteman with integrity and dignity and be truth to fight for the ppl then i said we all have hopes.

so either he changed himself or more and better than him show up to fight or pap had to make changes in future for sake of singaporeans’ future and to sustain their contiuneity of power but be fair to most.

Dr Chee looks like Steven Lim: http://media.photobucket.com/image/steven%20lim/SingaporeBikes/NBW%202008/Models/StevenLim_02.jpg

“Dr Chee looks like Steven Lim: http://media.photobucket.com/image/steven%20lim/SingaporeBikes/NBW%202008/Models/StevenLim_02.jpg”

bwahahahahahahahhaahahahahhahahahahahaahhahahaa… omigawd omigawd!

if you make legitimate claims and people charge you and harrass you for possibly overclaiming for taxi fees say 1 dollar per ride.

Would you be mad too?

Those people who claimed CSJ is not a gentle man is not sincere.

They don’t deserve the opposite and hope PAP squeeze them dry first.

Let’s not forget, LKY was/is a director of citigroup and he invested and lost monies from GIC to CItibank.

Nobody in govt question that.

Is that fair to the likes of CSJ.

LKY probably got a royal treatment when he attended those overseas meetings from citibank.

TOC, I think you got better stuff to report on than this. Personally I dont care at all what exhange CSJ and George Yeo have on facebook.

As James Gomez said before, “Let’s get back to the issues”. :)

not wise for chee to hound gy. think about it. it’s like taking on a kid for misbehaving instead of holding the kid’s parents responsible.

but the dude still comes across as an amateur in politics. one wonders whether he understands economics and the workings of the world or not.

anyway, he is too stubborn, like a bull, to understand which is perfect for those who are looking for bull to do the dirty work.

Do not put CSJ down in you do not even have the courage to put your name down here ! At least CSJ is doing something good for the people. What are you doing ?

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

This logic is funny.

It is like saying the audience should not criticize the performers on stage because they are not performing on stage.

Extend the argument, next time you dine in a restaurant, don’t criticize the food served because you are not doing the cooking in the kitchen.

chee should take note why george has amassed such a huge following – compared to him. if he intends to “muscle in” to raise his profile as a politician…..i say…big mistake.

but hey, dont take anon word for it.

good luck. lol

Dr Chee SJ should take on PM Lee HL!!

the whole nation will be united & glued to the screen for sure. more viewers than NDP!!

haa…

Dear sarek_home,

CSJ is not a performer nor a cook where we pay him to serve us. In fact he does not need to do anything at all for us. The fact that he stands up for our rights – and gets whacked hard in the process – is proof of his sterling character.

Now if you do not have the guts nor the character to stand up for what is right – and if you dare not put your name down here in TOC – I suggest that you keep quiet.

Don’t be a public fool for all to laugh at !

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

Dear puppap,

Firstly – I do not think that George Yeo has amassed a huge support base at all. And secondly – I want to see the so-called PAP ministers debate CSJ in the open and WITHOUT the Straits Times and Mediacorp’s support and help.

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

“Now if you do not have the guts nor the character to stand up for what is right – and if you dare not put your name down here in TOC – I suggest that you keep quiet.” – Dr Syed Alwi

why stop at putting down your good name sir?

why not also put down your photos and your family photos and…hmmm, start your own political party perhaps?

hi Dr Syed Alwi & Serek_Home,

i think you both hold very different values, but please refrain from getting at each other for holding different views on this issue.

to Serek_Home, on your part “criticize the performers on stage” is rather belittling. could have used a milder term, unless you are that keen on taking on Dr Chee SJ’s supporters? i hope not, but if so is it really necessary? why pick a fight when there are larger issues?

to Dr Syed Alwi, your reaction while understandable, maybe a little more restrain so no one gets too personal which may result in this article being locked?

maybe you both should take some hours off from posting? cool off a little, than continue posting?

Dr Syed Alwi,

i am sure you have watched sdp produced videos on pap’s leaders? do you think the content( especially on ministerial salary) was more of a “mock” than serious debate?

all i am saying is, his style may not go down very well with the average singaporean.

Dear curious,

There is a reason why we do not put more than our names down and its called SECURITY. But having said that – to be credible – one should at least have the courage to put one’s name down.

As for forming my own political party etc – I see no connection with what is being discussed here.

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

Dear puppap,

I think that you are trying to wangle away from your own words. I do not at all believe that George Yeo has amassed a huge following. What has he done to have a huge following ?

Whatever. But I think CSJ’s style of politics is quite appropriate given Singapore’s political climate and situation.

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

the point here is that, you set a rule and i set another rule and your reply was …why should i comply with your rule?

true, now why should we?

Well done Dr Chee!
I am sure Dr Chee can pose for the people to ask all Pertinent questions, IF he is elected into the house.

So far, Dr Chee’s questions are intellectually stimulating to say the least. Nothing wrong about his questions based on unbiased analysis.

I do hope George would respond with his personal views.

ditto for the rest of the creme dela creme.

Whatever it is, I think Pap people are trying to ignore dealing with CSJ. They already stated their one party policy, and whoever trying to debate with them is futile. One word to describe them is ARROGANT. !!!!!

Now if you do not have the guts nor the character to stand up for what is right – and if you dare not put your name down here in TOC – I suggest that you keep quiet.

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

Sound like PAP. Didn’t GCT say something similar about if one want to comment on politic, one should join a political party?

Sound like PAP claiming to speak for the majority as well.

what is wrong if someone pay me millions for my job.

i am just a worker.

i listen and obey my boss.

i am not the boss.

legally no wrong at all.

who make all the laws then?

sorry guys, GY will not replied in his own view or else he will face the chopping block. Why take the risk, is not his problem to answer all this. Take the pay and relax man.

I guess the Election is near – and the “debates” begin. Look forward for the “debate”.

Hi Dr Syed Alwi,

What do you think of the health care debate in Parliament between SDP and PAP in 1996? Was that an open debate?

Thanks.

Dear Dr. Syed Alwi

You seem to be obsessed with Chee, care to tell us what good had he done for us and what is so commendable about his actions so far.

Beyond making wild allegations and accusations without proofs or evidences, as well as blindly exhorting western democracy and freedom of speech, I have not see anything that he says or act upon so far that were good for Singapore’s future.

Perhaps, he can let us in concrete terms what he feels he can do to make Singapore a better place, not only in terms of democratic reforms, but also economically, security, viability and sustabilitiy, health, education etc…

loose cannon versus sycophant. next.

For those who seemed to harbour negative impression on Dr Chee, haven’t you heard of the saying, “don’t judge a book by it’s cover”. His party is fighting for real democracy and more freedom for Singaporeans in the light of more tightening and control on citizens by the PAP. The issues brought up by them are bread and butter issues. Why do you have this idea only the PAP are capable of governing the country? Lax immigration policy on a tiny island, negligible wage rise for the low income earners, rising social tension and the people’s inability to counter check on the PAP (remember Temasek Holdings, Civil Courts and NS). These are real issues that need answers. Singaporeans, it’s time for a 2 party systems to evolve naturally here.

Syed Alwi,

Please stop getting personal.

If you do, you will be put on moderation.

Stick to the issues and stop making personal challenges to fellow commenters.

Looks like Chee has psychophantic supporters, very much like those PAP psychophantic supporters.

Supporters of PAP thinks PAP can do no wrong.

Supporters of Chee also think he can do no wrong. One commenter even say Chee has “sterling character.” I wonder if the commenter knows Chee personally enough to say this.

Chee (and SDP) till today have avoided answering simple questions such as:

Where does he get his money to fund all his activities? I see them able to print t-shirts, hold events at hotels, drive car, etc.

How about Chee start being transparent and accountable to S’poreans first before he point finger at everyone else?

GiveMeABreak,

It seems like you are among the least enlightened to comment on Dr Chee’s doings.

“It is interesting that there are still people who claim that he spoke the truth when he cannot even substantiate or prove his allegations against the PAP.”

The fact is that without accountability and transparency, are you so blindly convicted that PAP is all clean, upright, etc? An allegation that cannot be proved simply means that the accused is not convictable under the law but does not mean that the accused is innocent. We have seen how one’s power can manipulate the entire system to suit one’s desire.

“In order for the opposition parties to move ahead, we should have level-headed people who can argue facts, present constructive criticism and solutions in projecting alternative views, not just being a loose-cannon shooting everywhere without knowing what the objectives is all about.”

It is level headed people like Dr Chee that threatens those in power. One can choose to be passive and wait for a generation change or simply wait for someone else to take the initiatives. But time waits for no man. It’s a matter of purpose and conviction that drives one to take action and initiatives. Dr Chee was targetted because he has the guts to challenge those who wield authority. The worst enemy that Dr Chee faces is S’pore’s Smear Times.

“It is obvious Chee has a personal vendetta against PAP.”

It is not Dr Chee’s personal vendetta against PAP. He actually carries the voices of those who cannot sync with the PAP model of a dynastic money-ruled society.

Hope that your conscience enlightens you more than anybody else.

aiyoyo

is it “团结就是力量”?

and “cant fight them, join them”?

sad story…

think cpf $ & daily livelihood is all commoners most concern……………………….

aiyoyo

39) Moe Gan Thai on August 11th, 2009 12.57 pm

“You can’t blame all these Pap MPs, they got mouth, but can not talk. You pay them $3 million, they will accept. You pay them $1 million they also accept. They don’t have a sense of direction. How to debate ?? They scare to say wrong thing, and annoy their master. Just like a dog, you give biscuit, it will eat. You give a bone, it will eat also.”

You give shit, they also have to eat.

to 80) and others with negative views,

So far has Dr.Chee been charged for illegal means in obtaining money ?
Definitely not ! Otherwise the PAPies would have been on to him. Use some common sense please. There could be many out there who are assisting him financially and it is no crime to be Dr. Chee’s benefactor and to remain anonymous, right ?

More importantly, public funds are not used to pay Dr. Chee, so why the fuss ? Instead you should direct your questions to the 82 PAP stooges, asking them to come clean and declare their net worth, especially the famiLee members. Any idea what each is worth ? Hundreds of millions? Maybe even a billion ?

Compared to those who cheat at elections, manipulate the truth, manipulate the laws and state security apparatus, avoid accountability in public office, it is not unreasonable for many citizens including Dr. Chee to be praised as having sterling character, right ?…….. LOL

During the last election in Malaysia, the Malaysians were pissed of with the govt that they just vote oppositions regardless who they were.

That why Anwar Ibrahim’s daughter & wife won the election even they r novices.

Many singaporeans are arirving to the stage of boiling points & just waiting for the right time to release the pressure. They have enough of PAP & famiLee.

So whether Dr Chee, Mr Chiam, Mr Low, uncles or aunties (regardless of educational, novice background ) awaiting to join politics, many ppl r still willing to Vote them in.

Don’t get excited over Chee or George.

Old man is OLD & many of this generation will witness how PAP function without him.

# 82 aiyoyo /// is it can’t fight them, join them? /// ;;; Hi aiyoyo ;;; Yes, congratulations, you have got it 100% right. This is the low-down attitude of all those posters who have been hitting out at Dr. Chee Soon Juan. Now that the PAPies are flying high these people are going to suck-up to the PAPies, no matter what it takes; and if Dr. Chee becomes PM in 10 years time these very same born hypocrites are going to be the very first to jump ship and become instant SDP supporters.

85) tom on August 11th, 2009 8.22 pm
Just you watch the true colors of those useless MIW MPs will screw up more things when the ole man kicks the bucket, better than watching world cup soccer final.

Harrison #81 -Well said and I full agree with you. The early years of PAP rule, said the first 20 years was really for the interest of nation building, creating jobs, building cheap public housing for the citizens.

I read one book by one of LKY cronies, in 1975 LKY was only drawing a salary of
$3750 per mth (i.e $45000per annum), what makes him and all his ministers taking 3.3 million(himself) a year now. And the average Singapore is still struggling with $24000 to $36000 a year. The low income workers are the worst hit at $6000 to $12000 a year. They are legally robbing the citizens money
with all the increases and the worst is public housing’s increase .

95% of public housing owners live in debt on their houses. Why is public housing so expensive now. No transparency for the breakdown of building cost when challenged by Chiam See Tong some time ago in parliament.

The high cost of living are all the doings of the PAP. The influx of one million foreigners gave many Singaporeans their own cultural shock. So those who still think that PAP has the citizens interest, please do not be blinded. Let LKY and all his cronies and ministers declare their asset and cash value if they dare to.

To this day, if we all possess a little intellect, we can see that the PAP government are helping themselves to the nations wealth (i.e. the citizens sweat and blood money through all the taxes.)

We all lucky we have people like CSJ and JBJ to fight for a true cause of justice
but sadly JBJ though battered till bankruptcy and subseqently died of heart-attacked, he stood tall to the greatest bully LKY and I salute JBJ for his sacrifice to the people of Singapore as a strong opposition leader. Now we have CSJ , and Kenneth (his son) to stand tall to check on the legally corruptors of the system. We must all try to make a change to the suppression of our life and freedom of speech and assembly. We the citizens are facing the greatest abuse
of absolute power by the ruling regimes of PAP, no different from Burma. Just that
the PAP did it their subtle way under the iron rule of LKY.

The undercurrent is deadly in PAP. See what I mean, those that spoke against LKY; like our former president Ong Teng Cheong, (his own PAP people), he was literally kicked out.
So, Dr Chee, you see George yeo will want to save his skin to shut his month tight to have a debate with you in cyperspace .

I am ready sad for PAP now because my vision in them had long died. I have never voted for them since. Many of my friends had migrated. We are all disillusioned.

These are the right words to discribe PAP …. Totalitarian, Authoritarian, Merciless
when gunning down the opposition, Dictatorial, Nepotic and Despotic.

The time of rekoning has come. We must show it in the next elections. Fellow
true blue Singaporeans, vote PAP out into oblivion… 50 years is more than enough. They are no more our guardian angels. They are the demons now who drain every citizens blood apart from their own cronies, bootlickers and lackeys.

Even Marcos, the despotic dictator had to fall from grace and died a slow death
in Hawaii. So, PAP wait for the day. Murphy Law is always applicable in every circumstance.

#88) leesjuanpat
Very true indeed! its so scary these day seeing how the local citizens rights are all been taken away while they provide all the benefits and welcome all the FT with ready citizenships. It’s obviously killing its own citizens day by day, intentionally, maybe! I think so they are already in the process of creating a new foreign singapore in time to come, as for the folks,you people will just die a natural dealth soon. What they want is $$$$$ lots of it!!!

It is interesting that some self-righteous posters here find it fit to criticize others who simply cannot accept Chee Soon Juan’s erratic, irrational and impractical attempts and approaches in bringing changes to Singapore.

I may be an opposition supporter but I do not look-up to Chee or his SDP as a credible alternative voice for Singapore, as beyond the fight for freedom of speech and expression, and the need for a more democratic political environment, I’m also equally concerned about the future of Singapore for my next generation…and certainly, I won’t bet on Singapore’s future in the hands of Chee Soon Juan and his SDP, who had not even settle their very own infighting within their own cadres.

I personally would like to see someone looking into the bonus payout of Temasek and GIC. I heard rumors saying that the employees of GIC were told by their boss that they would not get hefty bonus this round as GIC no longer is an organization that is unheard of by the majority. Now that it is under the spotlight, they have to be more discreet in payouts. Useless bunch taking our hard earned $$$$$$! And guess wat? their bonus is still better than most of us despite losing billions!

how georgy get his * ?
can even handle 1 person?

Engaging the underdog gives him the credence. Not acknowledging him is a better strategy.

I guess CSJ cannot draw them out in a one-on-one fight. Maybe he should change tact.

csj i support you

To Salleh:

as if PAP was doing the right thing to supposedly democratic Singapore in instill the right values by sueing opposition until they are broke?

All the more so, when history proves CSJ right when he is alive unlike JBJ.

The points he raised were right.

The treatment he got was wrong from PAP.

He is just reacting to a gross injustice.

Even one of the “fathers” of Singapore, an ex president receives a horrible treatment from LKY, which he tries to make up after that president died.

Honestly, would you have preferred CSJ to stay silent and never raise any issues and just wait for the thing to explode, while doing what the govt claimed he did: cheat taxi fares?

Dear Khairulanwar,

I was not in Singapore way back in 1996. I did not see the debate. I was in the US of A back then. Should have just stayed on in the US of A.

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

I am writing to caution the gayman techniques to assasinate any Singaporean.
The common practice, throw shit at you. Taint u and make u look bad.
Now, let’s all Singaporean look at what happen around us.
1) Why must we serve national service? Who get the credit.
11 billions was spent on defense. Yet the pension for a retire colonel is almost a million.
Are they worth that much? Or are we paying those in the circle.
2) Why are we importing so many immigrants? Is the ruling party trying to
suppress social class by enriching themselves?
3) If CSJ ask for a public debate, just send some PAP candidate for the debate.
So why worry. Scare he bring out more shit?

For those who are quick to nickpick on CSJ, ask yourselves this : what are the
other 2 elected opposition leaders doing?
At least we have one who speak without fear on issues that really concern us.
Debates are part and parcel of a healthy democracy and if the PAP claims Singapore to be, then why is George Yeo so evasive about the questions posed
to him. Surely as a Minister, he should have the authority to speak for himself
iso of directing him to ask his Party. Must political debates be confined to
our rubber stamped Parliament?
If not on the internet, what other avenues is now avaible to CSJ to voice out
our displeasures? especially with the passing of that wonderful Public Order
Bill (We must be the only country in the world to classify a one man protest as
an “assembly”)
For those who are really hoodwinked into believing that CSJ is a moron as
purveyed by our sycopantic media, try to hear him speak for once.
As a schoolboy, I used to like the PAP. But over the years in my adulthood
after going through life and experiences, and many times adversely
affected by their uncaring policies, I have totally lost faith in the Party and
team

“Even Marcos, the despotic dictator had to fall from grace and died a slow death
in Hawaii. So, PAP wait for the day. Murphy Law is always applicable in every circumstance.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Marcos

Please, please, do not compare Marcos, Chen Shui Bian, Suharto and other losers. They are not even worth peanut compared to our dynasty and rulers. They are totally losers because their corruption are so easily exposed by the citizens. Our system are in league of our own , where the white can become black and black can become white and yet majority of citizens continue to live make-believe world.

Read this from wikipedia and judge for yourself the similarity of our regime. So isn’t it frightening that we already experience what past corrupted dictators have gone through ? Are we still living in self-denial ? OUr system is uniquely singapore and happen at top echelon whereas the bottoms are just subservient digits to make the echelon wealthy and happier. Note how military is planted into GLC so they act as business-man but their mentaility is still very much military, that is just follow order.

“Prior to Marcos, Philippine presidents had followed the path of using their position to help along friends and allies before stepping down for the next player. Marcos essentially destroyed this setup through military rule, which allowed him to favor only the Marcoses and their allies.

His practice of using the politics of patronage in his desire to be the ninong or godfather of not just the people but the judiciary, legislative and administrative branches of the government ensured his downfall, no matter how Marcos justified it according to his own philosophy of the “politics of achievement.” This practice entailed bribery, racketeering, and embezzlement to gain the support of the aforementioned sectors. The 14 years of his dictatorship, according to critics, have warped the legislature, judiciary and the military.[38][39]

Another allegation was that his family and cronies looted so much wealth from the country that to this day investigators have difficulty determining precisely how many billions of dollars have been salted away. The Swiss government has also returned 684 million USD in allegedly ill-gotten Marcos wealth.

Now the main difference is that that those millions siphoned from past dictators are paled in comparison to the unknown loss of more than $100 billions by TH and GIC. Totally no explanation, totally no reason given, totally no accountable of the state reserves, for the loss as though as money belong to the emperor and dynasty. So anyone like to explain if this is corruption or just simply “Uniquely Singapore” ?

Please stop telling me too that $100 billions all end up in investment. Only clowns will believe that.

good move by Cr Chee to gain political mileage, but not so good chioce of opponent on the topics of “ministerial salary, the Public Order Act and the operations of Temasek and the GIC.”.

at best on a personal level (if at all possible) Mr George Yeo can only comment on ministerial salary. but being a minister of foreign affairs how much weight does he’s words on the other issues carry?

Dr Chee should have picked Mr Wong KS for the debate instead.

to Khairulanwar #75,

i cannot remember how the debate went back in 1996. Maybe because i was a lot more apathetic then.

Is there somewhere where i can read the transcript of the debate, or if it isnt too much trouble, could you relate to us how the debate went?

patience is running thin for some, this is the crowd where Dr Chee will gain support from- by taking “action”. any action…? 8)

chiong ah Dr Chee (but to where?)!! those who remain silent on issues are not viewed in high regard now, no matter what.

the call to action is stronger by the day, but what is the aim? do opposition parties oppose for the sake of opposing? will the day come where the opposition find themselves in the shoes of the ruling cadre, they will also oppose the dissenters identically harsh? afterall, its in the blood….

mice is nice,

“Dr Chee should have picked Mr Wong KS for the debate instead.”

Just like our expensive clowns are using divide and conquer tactics, opp party is now letting the clowns taste their own medicine.
You see, it is pointless to use Wong KS after all he is already condemned and lost respect by the citizen, and citizen will vote him out if he ever contest again. So it will be wise to move on to target the rest of the clowns to expose their wayangness, and let the citizen vote them out.

No point targetting the same clown over and over again because this clown may not even be contesting in next election as he has high probability of bring down the pappies’ votes.

Mp by Mp, ministers, princess, prince, emperor, enunch, dynasty, lackey, black dog will crumble just like every oppressive dynasty in the past.

94) Dr Syed Alwi and 99) aygee

I’m not familiar with the 1996 debate either, I was only 8 at that time – and Hansard transcripts online only go back to 2006.

The little that I know was that Chee Soon Juan and SDP challenged PAP to a health care debate – and got a few statistics wrong.

In Chee’s version of events, he said that it was a minor mistake that the PAP nitpicked him on. He and the other SDP members were subsequently fined by Parliament for their statements, I think.

But what the second-hand impressions I get was that the SDP didn’t come off pretty good from that debate. I may be wrong, since the record of that exchange is not really well-documented online.

My raising of the 1996 issue is this: as important as the issues at stake are, so is the method of engagement.

“so is the method of engagement.”

So what kind of engagement is effective ? Parliament ? See what happen to ex-NMP Siew or is just pure coincidence that Siew is not elected again ?

Dear Khairulanwar,

Do you honestly think that the PAP will engage ANY Opposition fairly ? I honestly think that CSJ has chosen the right approach. A live debate on cyberspace. In America they have live debates between presidential hopefuls on TV. Now thats what I call a democracy.

I see no reason why CSJ should not take on the PAP in a live debate in cyberspace.

After all, anyone can debate George Yeo on Facebook – so why not CSJ ? The questions that CSJ wants to address are of great public interest. If not CSJ – then why not TOC ?

How about TOC taking on George Yeo in cyberspace ?

You see – there is absolutely nothing wrong with a public debate. Indeed it is much fairer to have it cyberspace than in the PAP controlled MSM.

Ultimately – if one’s conscience is clear – then one should not be afraid to talk in the open.

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

mike @51

I am interested to know how you form your opinion of CSJ. What source of info did you base on? or do you know him personally or are you at the receiving end of his “bad behaviour”? Are you involved personally? I think the CSJ episodes are all before internet days, so were your opinions of him based on the mainstream media? If so I have A LOT TO SAY. Pls let people know.

Look at the PAP Internet Brigade… They are either trying to censor any news on CSJ (eg. nobody reported the development of the most recent SDP trials) or trying discredit CSJ/SDP at every mention.

Reminds me of the Christian Fundamentalist Internet Brigade during the AWARE Saga. They are either trying to censor any news or discredit the media platform that brought the news. Even sent complain letter to PMO and cry victim.

How can the fundies play victim when they have a weekly radio slot and a regular column on TODAY? They are still permitted to carry out workshops in our schools to promote LGBT discrimination. At least PAP doesn’t pretend to be a victim.

# 91) theofflinecitizen on August 11th, 2009 11.05 pm

>>”I personally would like to see someone looking into the bonus payout of Temasek and GIC. I heard rumors saying that the employees of GIC were told by their boss that they would not get hefty bonus this round as GIC no longer is an organization that is unheard of by the majority. Now that it is under the spotlight, they have to be more discreet in payouts.”<>”Useless bunch taking our hard earned $$$$$$! And guess wat? their bonus is still better than most of us despite losing billions!”>>

Is this a sign of just being sour grapes, what have their bonus being better than us got to do with what we are fighting for?

It is lucky that you have bonus! Do you know some of us don’t even get any?

91) theofflinecitizen on August 11th, 2009 11.05 pm

>”I personally would like to see someone looking into the bonus payout of Temasek and GIC. I heard rumors saying that the employees of GIC were told by their boss that they would not get hefty bonus this round as GIC no longer is an organization that is unheard of by the majority. Now that it is under the spotlight, they have to be more discreet in payouts.”

Are you using unsubstantiated rumours to stir shit here…I don’t think this is professional at all. We count on clear facts and issues for us to initiate citizen’s actions, NOT RUMOURS!

>” Useless bunch taking our hard earned $$$$$$! And guess wat? their bonus is still better than most of us despite losing billions!

Is this a sign of being sour grapes, what have their bonus being better than us got to do with what we are fighting for? It is lucky that you have bonus! Do you know some of us don’t even get any?

# 108) Oxford Dude

Looks like these gay militants are out again, now even exploring a political issue to advance their agenda…get out of this thread will you and go somewhere else to fight your cause…we have more important issues to focus on then your abnormal (or should I call it deformed) sexual preferences.

Hi #111,

How much does your principles cost? I offer to buy them. Haha…

No matter how well questions are posed by Dr Chee , i wonder is it a must to respond to his questions?

do not be mistaken, what i mean is simply, the real actions can only come after the new harliday.

its wait, wait wait……very hsian.

In singapore, as far as i know, only a handful can come up with tough questions like Dr Chee.

I hope more like him exist. These questions are Intellectually Stimulating!

Challenging!
Refreshing!
Exciting!
Majulah!

To Oxford Dude #108,

just because one doesnt agree with CSJ’s methods, doesnt mean one is a PAP Internet brigade. Thats being judgemental.

i just find more credible opposition in Sylvia Lim, Chiam See Tong, Low Thia Khiang and potentially credible Kenneth Jeyaratnam, who’s academic achievements rival that of LHL’s. May he also have the same fire in his belly like his dad.

Yes, a public forum could be a great place to discuss issues, but if we were to look at how Tony Blair and Obama engage the public and opposition, thats what i call a refined, dignified, civil engagement on issues.

On the CSJ and GY exchange, i likened it to this.

“Hey, lets have a public debate on issues.”
“Yes, sure. but lets keep it short and sharp. i’m comfortable that way.”
“What is your stand on points 1, 2, 3?”
“My stand is the same as already delivered by my govt, and they are 1, 2, 3″
“You must have personal opinion? You really personally agree with what your org stand for?”
“Yes, i agree with what my org stand for.”

and then everyone starts attacking GY for sucking up, being a yes man, having no stand etc etc etc, and CSJ is great, he’s god, he’s standing up for truth, he’s a martyr, etc etc etc.

I do agree that we do not have an open platform/ freedom of speech like the UK or the US. I do agree the PAP likes to bash up the opposition and shut them down.

But taking the tactic that CSJ has done – a call for public forum – clearly doesnt help change anything or even make a dent in getting any points across.

What do we get? a bunch of angry people calling each other names so far, from what i’ve seen in this discussion thread. and very likely, getting PAP to find even more ways to shut down open debates and discussion.

I dont have the answer as to what would be a better platform for debate and engagement – parliament? Feedback sessions? media briefings? more blogging? PAP is still steeped in the old ways, and perhaps will change over time, as they take in the power of social media. We have seen how social media can affect politics – in the US and closer to home, in Malaysia, Iran and Philippines.

We’ll find a way one day, but what i do see is that CSJ’s tactic didnt result in anything at all.

The point to note i like to note is that GY did not return the favour – he didnt ask for a similar public engagement with CSJ and challenge him on his ideas and issues, and what he’s doing/suggesting to make Singapore a better place.

And in my mind, as an individual, as a leader, i know who has better class :-)

I agree with Dr Syed Alwi @ 106.

Let’s supposed the one challenging GY is someone else, say ME, and not CSJ. Should not GY engage Me then, and answer Me’s questions? If GY cannot do this, then why does he want to come online and pretend to engage the citizens?

Let us not make excuses for GY when he is clearly being evasive. Certainly, CSJ is not the issue – if GY is honest enough to want to engage the people. Another sataying exercise, if you ask me.

All the able people just think of themselves. No one willing to stand up for election because of fear. I ready call upon all capable s’porean to come out to stand in the next election. I’m sorry I can’t, only support with my vote.

I think CSJ/SDP ’s supporter has to concede that CSJ/SDP made their handful of mistakes in the past and PAP’s past tactics have been very “successful” against CSJ/SDP. It’s not easy to “remove” the label once you’re being “branded”. Not many people really “bother” to relook on a “foregone” conclusion.

Fortunately, the people are generally quite “forgiving” and there are opportunities for “redemption” (I mean public “image” here). An apology will usually settle the dust – I always cannot understand why PAP’s MP refuse to apologise when mistakes are made (this only infuriates the people further – maybe god don’t make mistake).

Anyway, if CSJ/SDP is really working for the people – they will have a space in Singapore’s political arena – actually, I believe his supporters are the one that are more prone towards “action” type and the numbers are “growing”. I believe PAP senses that too.

Fortunately, now we have the cyberspace where the ground is levelled. I personally look forward for a fair and good “debate” among any future/prospective leaders from any camps. I believe the forumers in the cyberspace can be the judge base on the “actions” of the individuals.

In cyberspace, the king’s, princes and nobles are mere commoners…. oh, if any future politicians think that they can avoid the internet totally – good luck….

The mainstream media like the “newspaper” are dying…. Internet is the new media now – the one that starts ahead will be the future leaders – that I can guarantee you – I have 6 nephews and nieces and everyone of them read news from the internet at the age of 5 – none from the newspaper.

Actually I am quite surprise to hear very little “publicity” in the Internet for Worker Party; at least Reform Party is already ahead and been writing on TOC; a good starting point, and I believe they have scored several good political “points” already.

Finally, welcome to the new battle field.

To aygee: “what i do see is that CSJ’s tactic didnt result in anything at all.”

You can’t possibly have much foresight if you say that.

Dr Chee’s “tactic” would open up a lot of avenues for free speech, a problem solving tool if you want to know what free speech really does. That augurs well for Singapore’s future.

You obviously don’t know about the difference between short term and long term gains if you have come to the conclusions that you did.

To aygee: It’s exactly this sort of inertia that goes with the mentality of “PAP is still steeped in the old ways, and perhaps will change over time” and “we’ll find a way one day” that smacks of indolence and makes a sorry excuse for not taking action.

It is exactly because of the lack of genuine public discussions, debates, involvement that the PAP has evolved into a government that makes servants and slaves of the people. Contrary to your belief, public forums have a tremendous effect on how the government works for the people.

To dumb and dumber: I’m sure SDP makes mistakes, as do WP and PAP. Strangely, the mistakes made by the PAP are easily glossed over and in fact Singaporeans are lied to about these mistakes due to the non-transparent and unaccountable nature of the PAP.

To aygee: “what i do see is that CSJ’s tactic didnt result in anything at all.”

Speakers’ Corner?

“what i do see is that CSJ’s tactic didnt result in anything at all.”

Seriously, how do you come to such conclusion ?

The fact that CSJ take every opportunity to create awareness and publicity is the result. How else will you able to question, engage and enliven the discussion like in here if not for CSJ’s tactic. HOw else can we find the answer right from the gahmen’s mouth if not for CSJ’s tactic ?
Remember the pathetic response of old fart and his pinky during the court case audio recording ?

His tactic might not appeal to many but the result speak for itself when his tactics did dig more shit out from the gahmen than the usual wayang answer from those in the parliament.

to tatum, daniel, tango:

i think u missed my point – perhaps u didnt read my earlier comments.

what i meant by tactic was engaging GY on Facebook. i dont think it resulted in anything for now, outside of a lot of angry, and loaded responses, which tatum’s response clearly examplify (Which is understandable, as we all have our biasness).

i said perhaps we’ll find a way soon to have a more open platform for debate between parties – and perhaps social media will do it. but not through engaging GY in FB, the way he did.

its his delivery, his questioning that is a failure. Any govt official would shut up and stonewall, with that kind of questioning.

yes, CSJ created awareness and publicity. But is it positive, for him, for his party? Is it anything new in the first place? did it bring out fresh discussions? did it create new conversations in parliament and in the coffee shops, at meet-your-MP sessions, feeback units, letters to ST Forum? Has he found a new way to get the govt to re-think its policies?

has this FB engagement opened more doors for him and for SDP, or has it only created a lot of angry brickbats being exchanged on the internet?

He needs a better social media strategy, if he needs to engage the govt, and inform the public. What that strategy is, i dont know. He can look to malaysia, Obama, Iran for ideas, i think.

and again, its my opinion. You can care to disagree and engage me on my points, but please, you dont have to put me down, if i dont agree with what u say.

Aygee,
I think Chee’s exchange with George Yeo was what it was, a debate on issues that personally, I am interested in as I am a Singaporean. Whether it opens doors for SDP or positive for his party or creates angry brickbats on the internet, I don’t care.

The questions posed to Yeo are of interest to me because I am a Singapore citizen and this government is answerable and accountable to me and my fellow citizens.

I am not putting you down, aygee, and I hope you don’t mind my saying that your arguments are somewhat naive and superficial.

to aygee @115,

Dr. Chee’s tactics is to create awareness about this govt.

The fact not much has changed for the better is a clear indication to citizens that they have made a serious error in giving such an overwhelming mandate to an arrogant, stubborn and self serving govt.

Come next GE, you will get to see if Dr. Chee’s tactics has worked.

For every citizen that is enlightened, is a good chance of a vote gained for the opposition. It all adds up, one vote at a time.

To: 115 aygee

You said:
“But taking the tactic that CSJ has done – a call for public forum – clearly doesnt help change anything or even make a dent in getting any points across.”

after you had begun saying:

“i just find more credible opposition in Sylvia Lim, Chiam See Tong, Low Thia Khiang and potentially credible Kenneth Jeyaratnam, who’s academic achievements rival that of LHL’s.
”

Leaving out KJ as he is new, what EXACTLY have Sylvia Lim, Chiam, Low “help change anything or even make a dent in getting any points across”?

And what exactly do you and people of your thinking would like to suggest not only CSJ but other people who don’t fall into the category the power that be deemed fit to be FIXED, should do to gain the support of the lesser mortals……..the tactics, strategy, platform etc.

In any case, this thread is about Minister George Yeo offering to engage netizens on the Internet as a private citizen and CSJ has joined in.

So what’s the beef of those who criticise the person who has accepted to engage the Minister in the latter’s personal capacity as a pte citizen?

I agree with Steve Wu that it is difficult for GY to defend the indefensible.

Incidentally, all should reflect on why our elite Ministers and other office holders from the gahmen want to engage voters on the Internet and yet refuse to be serious in clearing doubts.

As to GY’s reply on the Temasek question, what do foreign goverrment know about Temasek’s actual performance to want to emulate it? Foreigners might be interested to copy Temasek’s SET-UP as Temasek has been able to gain from overcharging by the GLCs, like utilities, telecom, gambling ops etc……as to Temasek’s performance, even Presdient Ong was in the dark.

It is obvious that you are anti-CSJ to the core, in the same vein as the msm and gahmen would want to demonise him.

Each time when the opposition tries to raise its profile and rises to put a challenge to the firmly entrenched PAPies, we will have some people, who are apparently very confused psychologically, who will immediately try to shoot-down the tactics and strategies that the opposition tries, especially when it is the SDP involved. These unprincipled people are either those who have been nicely brainwashed by the PAPies or the fencesitters (those cunning people who, in local lingo, ’see which way the wind blows’ and they will side with the stronger side) . LKY has long ago warned the entire populace that “you are either with me, or you are out”, this being the only style of politics that LKY endorses. Therefore these brainwashed PAPsupporters and the cunning fencesitters are really people who don’t have the slightest bit of courage, on top of the fact that they lack any sence of conscience. Therefore, leaving aside those brainwashed by the PAPies, the other group the cunning fencesitters are the most dangerous of the lot. It is these people who the opposition have to watch-out for, because even if Singapore and Singaporeans will to rot under the PAPies, they are not going to be seen supporting the opposition, due to their apparently confused split-personality.

i dont need Dr Chee to tell me these problems,.

Tango, my point being – a debate to what purpose? debate for the sake of debating, as you imply?

I already know and am already unhappy of what the govt is doing and has done. TOC, Sze Hian, Andrew, Khairulanwar, Tan Kin Lian, sgpolitics, wayangparty, and many other bloggers have already raised the issues, and i’m very aware of them. i read these blogs every day.

Did CSJ make a difference when he engaged GY? i just dont think so. to me, it was an exercise in futility, and thats about it really. CSJ wants to be martyr – but to what intention? righteousness? the truth? i already know all this.

What i do think will happen is probably a stronger response from the govt to either control conversations on the internet, or control opposition on the internet, or control govt folks from engaging people on the internet (looking at the history and behaviour of our govt).

ok then, i’m done. We seem to disagree on this. I wont try and defend what u think is superficial and naive.

But wanting a debate for the sake of a debate, or to ask questions that wont be answered on facebook, just for the sake of highlighting one’s profile, i wonder who’s the one who’s naive and superficial here.

Nothing Changes,

I’m not anti-CSJ. like i said, he articulates himself very well in foreign media and his books. i just think his methods dont connect with me.

i didnt demonise him – i just dont support him wanting to be a martyr, and the methods he goes about trying to be one.

i have nothing against him as a person, what he stands for, nor his party. just his methods.

To: aygee

“…i have nothing against him as a person, what he stands for, nor his party. just his methods.”

Then, you still need to read up on what civil disobedience is about and the below link from SDP:

http://www.yoursdp.org/index.php/perspective/special-feature/1796-misconceptions-about-the-singapore-democrats

aygee,
although to each his own opinion.

If you want to know my opinion, this is it.
I strongly believe there is never such thing as debate for the sake of debating, at least not in Singapore. Whatever people can try and can do, do it rather than just doubt it will be effective at all. Those who can’t shouldn’t discourage those who can in their capacity no matter how ineffective and irrational it seems.

“Did CSJ make a difference when he engaged GY? i just dont think so. to me, it was an exercise in futility, and thats about it really. CSJ wants to be martyr – but to what intention? righteousness? the truth? i already know all this.”

If there is such thing call “debate for the sake of debating” , then isn’t the parliament debate is worthless and useless, since we know that the parliament debate is not going to change anything (or are we deluding ourselves ? Mr Wang has blogged on this before and he says that all along the parliament is just speaking to themselves and I concur).

So can we even question that
“Did Parliament debate make a difference to those issues raised by citizen (especially in area that impact them like FW policy, CPF Life, GST, HDB cost, TH/GIC investment loss etc) ? i just dont think so. to me, it was an exercise in futility, and thats about it really. Concerned MP/NMP wants to implements changes – but to what intention? righteousness? the truth? i already know all this.”

So if you conclude that debate for the sake of debating is not effective then how effective is those parliament debate anyway ? Aren’t Low, Sylvia Lim and others wasting their time in parliament or just wayanging knowing that whatever issues they brought will be thrown into market anyway because they are debating for the sake of debating since they know that in history of parliament, nothing is going to change anyway ? So why are parliament people still “debating for the sake of debating”. The answer is simple. They want to make the issue known and keep as evidence in internet. Every incident of engagement whether effectiveness or not serve will be recorded down and serve as reminder of how the government is treating the nation.

Hence it will be the same for Dr Chee, and political bloggers. Did those intelligent bloggers like Lucky Tan and Mr Wang think that they can change anything by “blogging for the sake of blogging” then ?

Hence I don’t think one need to care whether it is effective or not effective anymore, do whatever to make voice heard. Forget about social media strategy, forget about strategise thingy, just do with what you have in current situation, Of course, if you have strategy, go ahead, otherwise just proceed as each day live its own.

I’m not anti-CSJ. like i said, he articulates himself very well in foreign media and his books. i just think his methods dont connect with me.

… because aygee is a coward?

“If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops witthout plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning”;;;by Frederick Douglas;;;taken from the SDP Website;;;especially a message directed to those brainwashed PAPies and the “cunning – fencesitters”.

actually, you people should ponder over whether our politicians are capable of debating in the first place.

take our oldest politician for instance. you think he can be as gentile/gentlemanly as obama or reagan during the presidential election debate?

i think he is someone who does not enjoy losing or be proven wrong. and when you piss him off, he makes sure you go on bended knees or lose your career and ruined financially – if need be.

put it this way, his intolerance and cunningness has infected almost everyone who has been inducted into the party, especially the upper echelon.

and the qualities of oppositions are no better.

the point i am making here is that our politicians are incapable of the kind of presidential debate you see in the states – cannot lose face lah!

if these two REALLY go at it, it will be ugly – neither party is mature but chee will be the provocateur and the pap will strike back.

and what happened when the intolerance style of the pap surfaces?( think)

i think the authorities will prefer to…maintain the sensibility and keep debates boring and manageable – unlike the taiwanese or koreans.

we are peaceful because..we have avoided provoking the wrong people or allowed it to happen.

and here, they prefer to keep things …peaceful and respectful – a quiet power keeping things in order if you like.

as much as you do not like your hair ruffled by hooligans and be forced to show your displeasure, i don’t think they too look forward to having their image ruined on…”youtude”.

this is singapore. the right image is everyth$ng you know.

“many Singaporeans currently taking on full-time jobs who are paid so poorly that they cannot pay their bills, send their children to school, or live decent lives”.

We are the land of the working poor in SG……and rich foreigners.

Shame on George and his salary. I need 3 lifetimes to earn what he does a year. Yet does he discharge his job well?

Daniel #131,

Fair enough. I agree with your point. We need to keep raising the issues, esp in social media, because there’s no other avenues for debate.

Goh #132, thank you for that personal attack. you certainly helped in our discussion here.

Sensitive #134,

You also brought up a good point. Our current politicians are not molded in the environment the Old Man was. They are technocrats and i guess most got into politics because they were given an offer that they cannot refuse (to use the Godfather analogy). I dont think many of them (even many of us here) can debate like in the US and the UK.

Our opposition got into politics because they WANT to. i think thats the plus point for our opposition.

A true test for our govt would be a one-on-one fight in each election ward. But that’ll never happen, would it?

To aygee,

You may be done, but i’m not.

You are so obviously biased against Chee that the substance and effect of the debate is utterly lost on you.

The effect would have been so widespread that even the local mouthpiece would have had no choice but to report it. Unfortunately, George Yeo had squirmed his sorry arse out of what would have been a most interesting political exchange that concerns me as a citizen of this country. Which brings me to the substance of the debate.

The questions that Chee asked, especially ministers’ salaries and Temasek’s losses are of paramount importance as all this money is coming from our CPF savings and taxes. Need I spell out to you why it is important to have George Yeo answer these questions?

As for the fear of the govt closing down cyberspace for such discourse, you are simply doing the PAP’s dirty job for them by teetering along this thin line, afraid to cross it or rather, to cross the PAP.

Aygee, just admit that you are so blinded by your prejudice that you can’t even appreciate that this was a rare occasion that a minister was rightly taken to task.
But of course he won’t. He has learnt the art of taichi very well from Lee Kuan Yew. This will either wake many Singaporeans who are in slumberland who think that these ministers deserve their million dollar salaries and the opacity of how the PAP runs the country.

Hi, TOC,

In case you are not aware. The SDP’s website link is not working, although it’s highlighted.

129) aygee

sadly here @ TOC, to many things are either black or white.
If you say something bad about their favourite heros, or say something good about gahmen, they are not gonna like you very much.

Like Bush’s famous words, either you are with us or you are with the …..

on one side, you hv a rattling rattlesnake loaded with venoms. on the other side you have a king cobra in docile mode.

the rattle snake likes to rattle and the king cobra, very well fed, generally ignores the rattlesnakes rattling noises and chooses to only display its fangs or wings to stave off any advances from the rattlesnakes.

but the minute when the rattlesnake strikes, the king cobra will rise to tower over the rattlesnake and ……

oh mercy, mercy….LOL

Anonymous (#138),

Thanks for letting us know about the url link. We’ve rectified it.

Chee is a striker. I think he will go overboard and he usually does … end up being offensive.

If you have lived in this nation long enough, you will know you seldom get things done FOR YOU if you sounded offensive – your education to work life(especially working for white people) and even in the market place can testify to that.

This country does not allow you to be…angry( you must always be in a kowtow mode).

Mr Chee is a very angry and frustrated man!

hi Daniel,

post #103, on August 12th, 2009 12.39 am

“No point targetting the same clown over and over again because this clown may not even be contesting in next election as he has high probability of bring down the pappies’ votes.”

you got a point there. ;)

Dear People,

I think the issue of debate between George Yeo and CSJ should be put in context. First of all – it was George Yeo who set up a FB site to reach out to Singaporeans. When Singaporeans want to debate him there – I guess thats only natural. After all – there are many controversial things which the PAP has done of late.

What is so wrong with a debate with a member of the public on PAP policies – when George Yeo himself set up that FB site to begin with ?

Don’t want to debate – then don’t set up a site to reach out to Singaporeans lor !

It could have been you and me or TOC who wanted to debate Georege Yeo.

Enter CSJ and he had the courage and conscience to ask these tough questions to George Yeo publicly. So what ? Why cannot ask questions ? Why cannot debate openly ?

Remember – it could have been you and me or TOC who asked George Yeo to debate these issues. But since it was CSJ – no – cannot debate ! What kind of mentality is that ?

Look people – If Your Conscience Is Clear – Then Please Talk In The Open. No need to look for dark corners etc. Talk openly with confidence if you think that you are right and you think that your actions are the right ones.

Talk In The Open Please !

Best Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

“Mr Chee is a very angry and frustrated man!”

So are we, otherwise, why we are wasting time constantly coming to TOC making comment instead of spending our precious time making Money/Love/Babies … haha

CSJ is a moron in this case.
Asking George Yeo what he felt personally about an issue in Facebook.
If I were George Yeo I would just tell him that I personally thinks that he is a jackass and I have better things to do than answer his dumb questions.

While the opposition likes to accuse the PAP of having zero EQ, you don’t need to be a genius to see that CSJ is no better.

Problem is, I have read his books and do not entirely disagree with his views.
But not all thinkers can be politicians. In this case, CSJ is completely outclassed.
I am not even a fan of the PAP.

That’s the point. Most of the time, we don’t debate, we throw punches instead.

Take a leaf from the Aware saga. They went in for a knock out( to discredit the leaders). Subsequently, it takes another knock out( discredit the new leaders) to regain loss power.

All along, the fight was ugly.It turned “cordial” only when there was a clear winner. Then it becomes a “civilize debate” for public consumption.

Few probably know that the actual “knock out” took place behind the scene.

hi Observer,

this is how S’pore works….

“Most of the time, we don’t debate, we throw punches instead.”
On internet, commenters throw punch and reconcile.
On mainstream media and parliament, gahmen throw cold water and move on.

100) Dr Chee should have picked Mr Wong KS for the debate instead.
Yeah. But WKS is 2b soliciting Geyland yeah. Bcos that place is safe for him.
Police nvr do catch anyone at Geylang right. Is a free market lah.
He so happy there, u think he has time to debate. Not enough chicken just let
his man stamp more passes.

Bill Clinton is a proven politician.
These americans, they are so solid and impressive!

Would it be possible to pay Clinton 3 million a year and have him work for singapore, i mean mainly for Singaporeans? Like if give him honorary and real citizenship, elect him into the house and speak for the people, especially the alternative nation who seriously needs someone to speak up for them?
Would this not make the nation more robust democratically speaking?

Clinton, i hope you become singapore citizen.

Just read from the latest GY-CSJ exchange from the SDP site, our George boy is a SAF BOND-BREAKER!!

That’s really some news…

There are no neutral grounds in the island city state. Trying to fight the system within the system is doomed cause. The ball is in the court of the rulers – as always. The rulers dictate the rules and regulations in such a way that they ALWAYS win. Opposition leaders in such a scenario must in for the long haul. Like what Nelson Mandala underwent in South Africa. It’s all about time and stamina to run the marathon race.

To Tango,

i agree with you that i’m biased against CSJ. i didnt hide that fact from the start. But i’m not biased against the man, but his methods, his grandstanding politics. His words/ intentions are lost to me because of this. And he has lost his credibility to me, because of this.

As opposed to Chiam’s or the late great JBJ’s “silent killer” ways. I bet the PAP would be scared of, or dare i say it, even try to listen to these opposition leaders, rather than CSJ (though we all know they prefer shutting any form of opposition).

GY is right there on FB. any of us could have befriended him and ask him the questions we’ve been longing to ask. If you can do so, how would you approach GY?

(i)the same shouting and challenging style, as CSJ has done,
(ii)or would you put things politely, earnestly, to him? would u ask him for help?

What sort of response do you think GY would give for (i) or (ii)?

Put it another way. You have a meet-the-people session with an MP. Do you to go him and scream “why you get so high salary? We’re suffering here. Why i cant get my CPF money?” or do say “Mr MP, i’m struggling to make ends meet. i need help. my job was taken over by an FT. Can you help me?”

Which would get a better response?

I give it to CSJ for doing so with GY, and continuing his fight with the PAP, but he’s been at it for the longest time anyway, ever since the first time he went for elections back in the early 90s (i went to all his election speechs when he went into politics (i hated the PAP for kicking him out of NUS over taxi fares then), but he lost my support when he went on that hunger strike).

And to no result from what i’ve seen.

Hi Aygee,

How would you respond to any PAP politician if PAP had made you bankrupt while they send “policemen” to harass you with double-standard laws?

and one last point,

FB is a social network. GY started it because he wanted to connect to a new group of Singaporean digital natives, known more as a person rather than a member of PAP. He posts his personal stuff there.

If you go to a party, you hang around people u want to hang around with, chit chat, talk about personal stuff, joke. Along comes a man, shouting and screaming, and challenging you about your company, your family etc etc. How would you react?

The point is again, yes, we need more platforms for open debate. But is FB the right way? Pick and choose your battles, find the right ground to fight and be heard, and make an impact.

To Oxford Dude,

You’re taking on a “what if” or a “slippery slope” discussion. Its a discussion that wont end, and puts me on the defensive. I wont go there, and, its not the point i trying to make – which was – again – CSJ’s engagement with GY on FB is grandstanding politics.

aygee,

I agree with you. FB is a social networking site. It’s personal and for friends only. Chee SJ does not know manners. I find his behaviour deplorable. He acts like a gangster, asking stupid questions which already answered, then act like a bleeding heart for the poor (while he is able to find money to host events at hotels, drive a car, etc), and has no manners to respect the minister.

Chee is grandstanding. It is plain for all to see. Sadly, again he has fallen into the trap of his own ego.

Ang Gu Lin,

I was there when Bill Clinton spoke at the Clinton Global Initiative in HK. Never has a man’s words put tears in my eyes, like Clinton did. Talk about a politician, a diplomat, a peace envoy.

SDP (or was it WP?) wanted to invite a political strategist to come to Singapore for a talk. I think it was SDP and a connection of CSJ. Apparently, he was stopped at the airport and asked to return.

Now, this kind of work, if it was the SDP, is the kind of thing i would laud. When CSJ talks to the foreign press outside of Singapore, he is so articulate – he puts his points well. i read that FEER article in which he was interviewed at length, and which the govt is suing Dow Jones for.

I just think he takes on this grandstand persona only in singapore, for the singapore audience. Why, i dont know…

Dear Aygee,

CSJ was NOT loudhailing GY. Firstly – lets not be naive. GY is a public figure. When GY goes on FB – he ought to expect Singaporeans wanting to query him, debate etc with him there. Its fair play.

What is so wrong with CSJ wanting to debate him there ? And besides – I do NOT believe that CSJ “loudhailed” GY. Thats blatantly false.

I think that CSJ made the right approach but that GY wanted to avoid public debate. Thats all there is to it.

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

There is only one word for those who betray the National Pledge….”Traitors”.

The most depressing scene is the live telecast showing hypocrites in white reciting the Pledge. It is as good as making a vow…….but only for show.

Now use some common sense to see what ordinary citizens are up against in order to change the political scenario for the better. It will take a supreme effort from all citizens. Anything less will fall short when dealing with scums masquerading as political leaders.

This is what Dr. Chee and all opposition members are up against.

To #14, “e.g. if you are a senior board member of DBS and someone asks you for an opinion, even if its personal, that DBS has cheated people in the minibond saga, how would you answer? Every company, every political party would want to send out the same message.”

Watch it Joe! Are you suggesting that the PAP was dishonest and cheated the people’s money? The last time somebody made an innocent analogy like this – someone then was comparing some people to TT Durai of the NKF infamy – landed up in court with a defamation suit and lost his family fortunes.

No. 129 aygee

You made some bold assertions and criticism/condemnation about CSJ and yet when you are challenged about your criticisms/condemnation, you weasel out.

I repeat what was posted in #126

{Leaving out KJ as he is new, what EXACTLY have Sylvia Lim, Chiam, Low “help change anything or even make a dent in getting any points across”?

And what exactly do you and people of your thinking would like to suggest not only CSJ but other people who don’t fall into the category the power that be deemed fit to be FIXED, should do to gain the support of the lesser mortals……..the tactics, strategy, platform etc.

In any case, this thread is about Minister George Yeo offering to engage netizens on the Internet as a private citizen and CSJ has joined in.

So what’s the beef of those who criticise the person who has accepted to engage the Minister in the latter’s personal capacity as a pte citizen?

I agree with Steve Wu that it is difficult for GY to defend the indefensible.

Incidentally, all should reflect on why our elite Ministers and other office holders from the gahmen want to engage voters on the Internet and yet refuse to be serious in clearing doubts.

As to GY’s reply on the Temasek question, what do foreign goverrment know about Temasek’s actual performance to want to emulate it? Foreigners might be interested to copy Temasek’s SET-UP as Temasek has been able to gain from overcharging by the GLCs, like utilities, telecom, gambling ops etc……as to Temasek’s performance, even Presdient Ong was in the dark.

It is obvious that you are anti-CSJ to the core, in the same vein as the msm and gahmen would want to demonise him.}

…………………………….

As for your #129,

You obviously belong to that approved wayang player the powers that be don’t feel threatened to be FIXED. Not only that it just shows out that your kind of group is just a SHAM……………nothing more than free-loading dimwits. Nothing personal…just my opinion.

Rumour has it that because of the hundreds of thousands taking the pledge with such passion on National. day, a major announcement will be made this Sunday to scrap NS.
In it’s place a volunteer force will be introduce for those that pledged on Nat day to WALK THE TALK
It is expected that the so- called new arrivals will queue to volunteer to defend their new home. .
Bravo! MERDEKA! MERDEKA!

Loudhailer Chee #158
Obviously you haven’t seen parliamentary debates in UK or Australia?
Search it on Youtube!
Politics is not for the sissy and if PAP politicians were expected to be
treated like royalties , I say they all should take a hike.
Talk about a pot calling the other white!

re-#165
should add
“Aren’t PAP leaders methods of running down the oppositions with
ISA imprisonments and defamation suits as merciless and disrespectful as
you said about Chee?
Talk about a pot calling the other white

Transformer,

to your point, i taking a guess here but its because many PAP politicians dont really want to be politicians in the first place. (which explains the high salary, to induce them to join politics. As for those in Cabinet and their high salaries, well, enough’s been said about it).

Also many from the “elitist” model put into place by the govt. that breeds the high-and-mighty attitude that they have. Many are also well-educated, so they have yet another “i’m better than you” attitude.

PAP also has that paternalistic attitude about it, so if one talks back, they get the “How dare you?!” response.

LKY himself has realised that his candidates cannot engage and debate, and his excuse for having NMPs.

Anyway, this high-and-mighty attitude, elitist/technocrat, and their poor ability to engage and communicate, is the result of LKY’s hard approach anyway (i.e. the Machiavellian approach to governing).

For pragmatic reason, Chee Soon Juan should just migrate with his whole clan and live with his many foreign friends. And from there he and his clan can ‘carry on’ the political activities that they are involved locally.

And for pragmatic, reasonable view, I do not foresee Chee Soon Juan to be, will be a member of the Government of Singapore.

On balance, I think he does do good for Singaporeans by asking and challenging the Regime for accountability and transparency that most Singaporeans are demanding and expecting from the Authority. At least his calls are much more publicise than that of a lay citizen.

patriot

To 167) aygee

“to your point, i taking a guess here but its because many PAP politicians dont really want to be politicians in the first place. (which explains the high salary, to induce them to join politics. As for those in Cabinet and their high salaries, well, enough’s been said about it).”

What kind of “politicans” can these people turn out to be if your guess is true? In comparison, do you think they will be better than CSJ/SDP – just seeking your views as a fellow forumer.

Dumber and dumber #169
“the reluctant politicians and leaders.”
Robots who serve without any passiion.
Perfect recipe for the demise of any nation

“The point is again, yes, we need more platforms for open debate. But is FB the right way? Pick and choose your battles, find the right ground to fight and be heard, and make an impact.”

Any platform that has publicity and readership is a good platform for open debate just like any physical place that frequent by the mass is a good place for spreading message. However the PAP is smart to control all physical space and even come out ridiculous laws to ensure that etc condemn single person’s protest . Hence, any platform that utilize physical space becomes harder for opp party to spread their message and ask question, and even then it becomes less effective for opp party as now the PAPpy is using the police force and camera to create FUD. Therefore using any online popular social media platform such as blog, FB, twitter, etc is the lowest cost yet effective and ’safest’ way to communicate and engagement for opp party. There is no right or wrong way as long as there is result. If you use a standardized and formal platform, one will never get the answer from the gov because you will always get a same standard and beat around the bush answer.

“we need more platforms for open debate”
Yes, we need more and I presume you means gov opening platform for open debate, but the question is to ask yourself that isn’t that our gov is so pragmatic and self-serving, and only willing to do so if they benefit them and their regime ? It has only show time to time from the answer by the gahmen that everyone get sick hearing their partisan answer (take the recent answer from LIM that indicate no transparency if it does not benefit the gov, TH, GIC, yes, nevermind the citizen.). You need to proof and argue how open more platform will benefit the government. Yes, the government and leegime not the citizen.

So until “more platforms for open debate”, let’s do with whatever platform, physical or online for engagement no matter how incomfortable, ineffective and informal as it may seems to some.

You see, the problem with us is that we still think that parliament is the “ONLY” official way for open debate even though we choose to deny it. We get use to parliament debate in TV ( one-sided with prince and family makng the final verdict) and utube.

Another question how useful will you find debate in platform likeMeetThePeople session, Meet the gahmen’s session , whereby the answer given are model answer already consolidated by Lucky Tan, haha. I am not kidding you when I tell you that as gahmen play it safe all the time (even P65blog now play it safe by using small unknow Pappies to avoid putting tight spot to MP, and removing trace of previous MP’s personal opinion and thought. Everyone non-gullible can see that).

A good thing about having engagement online is that all tachi of the gahmen will be recorded into internet through blog and user account for all to see, and it is free and convenient to access those “evidence”. The gahmen can no longer says that they have discuss issues and solutions in some private “gahmen’s session”.

So let not define the boundary and constraint of what a effective platform is because we doubt we know it ourselves. Yes, certain platform may seem effective and right but then is it practical and accessible by alternative party ?

> 110) No Bonus on August 12th, 2009 7.21 am

Are you telling me us asking why the MPs are getting such high pays are all sour grapes? Grow up.

Go check out the payouts for them in previous years and now. You would know what I mean. Are you from the PuPpies?

Is there no press in this world that cannot get away with publishing some articles?

A country that was born by accident. Her people seems to not appreciate freedom and does not understand the meaning of struggle (perjuangan). Chee has got fighting spirit and does not care what people say to him or about him. He continues. He may not reap the fruits of his struggle in his lifetime.

I am sure the next generation will. Have we not heard of entrepeneurs who struggled and made it. The same concept applies. But his struggle is of a higher calling.

170) transformer

I’m here to “learn” and “grow”; including view’s like Aygee that I sometimes disagree. In my opinion, we vote for oppositions or PAP for a reason or reason(s). I am learning to look from his “views”; and hopefully, he can evaluate the merits and flaws of my “view(s)” in the exchange.

aygee @159,

“I just think he takes on this grandstand persona only in singapore, for the singapore audience.”

Well, I think you think wrong. Its not whatever persona you want to call it. CSJ must have known by now that the Spore audience won’t go ga ga with this sort of thing after his experiences so why would he do that just for the Spore audeince?

I think CSJ is using any opportunity to expose the PAP, because NOBODY in Spore would do it. NOBODY would dare openly question a Minister with her/his identity known, for reasons you and I know.

Angelina #176,

I agree with you. He’s trying to expose the PAP, and working very hard at it.

But so has TOC, Tan Kin Lian, Leong Sze Hian, Lucky Tan and many other bloggers in recent times.

The late great JBJ was at it since the 80s when he first got into parliament. Francis Seow and Tang Liang Hong were persecuted and banished for doing so. Said Zahari was locked up for 17 years for even thinking about opposing the Man.

He represents a political party. i think he should be doing what political parties do, not raise issues like what our bloggers are already doing. Engaging GY on FB can be done by any of us. If you choose not to, then fine.

But to laud him for being brave for doing so, i’ll refrain from that. He’s just doing what he’s been doing ever since the hunger strike. Thats why i think he’s grandstanding.

Looking at how they can come down hard on Francis Seow and Tang Liang Hong and James Gomez, and let CSJ continue with whatever he’s doing, is a sign to me of how much of a threat the PAP sees CSJ.

anyway, its just my humble opinion. Its happened, lets move on ;-)

#2 pointed out something very relevant – this is war; uncensored, unbiased war.

let the people evaluate the views of the two opposing generals and may the best man win.

let’s look at the 3 questions raised by CSJ objectively, these questions are not new. The questions on minister’s salary and Public Order Act has been raised up many times over the past few year.

The question of GIC and Temasek’s bad investment in US banks, think no one wanted it this way. every major fund houses incurred losses last year.

personally, i think CSJ should focus on current topics that Singapore need to address. Like topics on how to maintain Singapore’s competitive edge, how to help companies tide this this diffuclt period , how to increase Singapore birth rate etc.

Topic posted for debate should benefit Singapore’s future rather than for the sake of debate.
The questions posted was designed to embarrass George Yeo and PAP, personally i find it unethical to do so

#177 aygee /// Thats why i think he’s grandstanding /// ;;; Hi aygee;;; So Gandhi, when he went through all that he went with the British, and at the end of it when he got assasinated was grandstanding? Mandela after spending 26 years locked up was grandstanding? Chia Thye Poh whom LKY detained under ISA for longer than Mandela was grandstanding? Tell us, by holding such views about CSJ, after he has sacrificed so much for the sake of we downtroden Singaporeans, aren’t you also grandstanding? Remember, when you point a finger at someone, there are 3 pointing at you.

budamax,

are you saying that CSJ = Gandhi = Mandela = Chia Thye Poh?

Me disagree with CSJ’s methods, and i’m grandstanding?

wow…i dont even know where to start to counter your argument. anyway, i have nothing more to add to this thread.

Thanks budamax, but i wont be pulled into a discussion based on your logic.

CSJ can debate for all he wants. The crux of the matter is that the average joe is contented as long as you give him a roof over his head and three packets of rice everyday. He has no time for truths and other grandiose things in life.