The cat is partly out of the bag

Housing Profiteering. HDB has lost it’s moral compa$$.

Now, lets see who’s about to get fired? I hope its not some clerk or a gurkha officer…

I am afraid things won’t turn out that way….some excuses and figures will pop out to justify their past Profiteering and changing that to “we have subsidize alot for you”…

So i wonder how will my dear Rod reply to this? so how do Rod justify this?

To be fair, some additional administrative costs of handling transactions/balloting should be included. I will throw in an arbitrary $1m for that.

per flat add another 1.2K or so. which is not going to change the percentage profit by a whole lot. ;P

Where did you think our large SWF get their monies from? A very conservative estimate of 2 million flats sold at a profit of $100K each over the last 30 years yields $200billion!

So unless you are born with a silver spoon, each middle-class newly-wed couple pays that to the govt at least once during their lifetime. The question is: How many times has your or your parents moved house already??

Hmm …what do u think the teh c w incident mean?

ha ha ha… this would be interesting to see.
I sure hope some NMP or the opposition will bring this up in the next parliament meeting. Then see what kinda excuses is going to be dished out from people who pay our million dollars tax money pays for.

To think there is so many new reports of HDB not making money.

I am so looking forward to updates on this issue!

But on top of that main contract? are there any other contract distributed for the same project involving other work? I mean, to give them the benefit of the doubt…but i don’t think so right….

HDB earning a profit is understandable, but outrageous profiteering with claims of subsidy and low profit…that’s outrageous….but i hope we can gather more info regarding this

HDB…any ““palpable panic” over this?

HDB will of course protest that it had to pay market value for the land… which it had to lease for 99years from SLA.
And of course SLA will claim that they were merely following the guidance of the Chief Valuer regarding how much to charge SLA.
CV will never say anything, but SLA will point out that CV not govt, as (s)he is appointed by President.

Left pocket, right pocket.

There are additional costs of the public roads, sewage drains, fresh water pipes, electricity cables, gas mains, telecom and broadband cables etc that have to be built or laid to support the new estate.

I wonder if HDB needs to pay for the above infrastructure costs and recover such costs from the flat buyers.

ahhh, but they have yet to factor in “land cost” — at the same rate as it would have been if sold to a private developer.

watch how our elected government is going to conjure up the “subsidy act”.

$104.2 million is the cost of building the flats and amenities to be paid to the contractor.

What about other costs also? Land cost, admin cost, legal costs etc? Anyone can provide a complete breakdown? It will be interesting to know these other component costs.

Seems like the government forget that they are not a business… No need to make a profit in everything… Subsidised flat still can make so much profit…

we want to keep wages down on one hand… to keep us competitive with other countries… but housing cost is raised up so high… no wonder peole all so stressed up… low wage and high installment for flat..

In my opinion.. It is ok to charge high tax and COEs for cars… but flats have to be priced reasonably… cost plus 25% maybe? if we cannot afford a car, we take a bus… what choice do we have if we cannot afford a ’subsidised” HDB flat?

The S$104.2 million is just construction costs. HDB also factors in development costs:
- land
- land clearing (percentage of that for entire estate)
- infrastructure for roads, electricity, telecoms, sewage, water & gas (contrcats are awarded by LTA, PUB, etc) but costs are passed back to HDB
- HDB manpower (contract management, engineers’ time, etc)

I hope the opposition will asked the questions rather than an NMP…maybe Chiam…since he did challenge the HDB with regards to the cost of building new flats before during GCT time…but was ridicule and shot down.
Let’s see what the standard reply from the HDB will be on the forum page first.

The S$104.2 million is just construction costs. HDB also factors in development costs:
- land
- land clearing (percentage of that for entire estate)
- infrastructure for roads, electricity, telecoms, sewage, water & gas (contrcats are awarded by LTA, PUB, etc) but costs are passed back to HDB
- HDB manpower (contract management, engineers’ time, etc)

Makes one wonder what a govt is for when every public service is priced using a cost+ model..

HDB always say that we enjoy great flat “market subsidy”. What is “market subsidy”? Let us look at “market subsidy” this way:

- HDB prices the new flat at market value based on the price of existing flats in the resale market.
- HDB sells flats to buyers below market value and called it market subsidy.

When we go shoping and want the shop to sell the item below the marked price, we ask for a discount.

In a nutshell, HDB is giving us discount and insist it is a form of subsidy.

HDB claims to suffer a loss when selling flats with market subsidy because the cost is the opportunity cost based on market valuation of flats.

HDB never shows the actual land cost and construction cost it pays per block.

Market Subsidy is simply Discount.

I do not know if the land price was factored in during the tender.

I honestly don’t mind HDB profiteering ….but it must be reasonable.

Reasonable according to how much people earn and the grants they provide must be more for people who are 1st timers.
Singaporeans need a place to stay…killing them with such debt burden is crazy. If the person, was too rash in selling and buying and trying to make money out of the home, HDB should monitor such people and provide proper assistance and counselling.

It is a govt body and there are other expenses as well so it is ok to make money but don’t stifle people.

I pitty the youths and 1st time buyers.

Based on data the tender by company on land for private condo development , the land cost per square feet may come up to $200 to $250. Basing on average of 1,000 sq ft per unit, the cost per unit may come up to $300,000 (land + building cost)

Spirit-centred

the cost per square fit isn’t divided by levels right?! HDB is building mutli-story and not single story right? so how does it comes up to that amount?

@21) Spirit-centered

Your calculations are flawed. Land cost of $200 psf is reasonable, but you have to divide it among the 15 (nowadays HDB build higher) floors of residents on the same stack sharing the same plot of that 1,000 sq ft land. That works out to a max of $15 psf for each unit, which adds only $15,000 to each unit’s cost.

the cost/unit based 5 years ago cost hdb an average of $80,000/unit in which hdb sell to you the commonors above $200,000++/unit
next questions please?
landcostin perhaps?
sla suka suka says it sell to hdb $1billion also can when it conficated from the peasants by FORCE @ $30,000/home or $40,000/home if located in city area

When a monopoly captured a market regardless who they are, what do one expect from them? There is no competition and they could set any price they want. Comsumers must vote with their wallet if they could but sadly not in Sinkapore as there is no alternative. I would suggest, Sinkaporean organise a peaceful protest by say switching off their lights at home say at precisely 9pm to 9.10pm. Just 10 minutes. It is a peaceful demonstration of the collective will of the people. If the idea take off, more could be organised and one hoped the ruling regime will get the message- People are suffering and unhappy. It cost very little and there is no public demonstration and disturbance – strictly within the law.

I applauded Mr Leong spotting this piece of important detail.
Please keep it up!

[sharing the same plot of that 1,000 sq ft land]
HDB doesn’t just charge you for the land your unit or block sits on. Also included are playground, MSCP, community halls, etc.

I think the BBR contract is for the following project.

HDB is launching Dew Spring@Yishun, a new housing project in Yishun under the Build-To-Order (BTO) System today. A total of 864 Standard flats will be offered, comprising 144 2-room, 216 3-room and 504 4-room flats. This project has the largest number of smaller flat types offered in one BTO this year, with 360 units of 2-room and 3-room flats.
http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10296p.nsf/PressReleases/FF131E246C03304A482575230034347D
http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10296p.nsf/PressReleases/9EE0AB985E8B35E84825760300017802?OpenDocument

this blue eye minister of you know who known for ministry profiteering dept. when he took over, this is what i expected for hdb pricing. nothing surprised to me.

it is going to goes up for sure.

HDB have charge this kind of rate. If not, how to move from Bukit Merah to Toa Payoh Hub with beautiful landscape and building.

Thiese are the PAP gov. policy that all stat. board must never refect red in the A/Cs. So you can imagine what kind of charges nowadays those stat. Board charging us. Nothing is free in this world but prices must be reasonable espically for those basic items that can affect the livelyhood of the citizens.

No worries , majority of singaporeans accept this kind of pricing.
Majority wins.

Do we factor land cost into cost of HDB flats?

1. Land is non-perishable.
2. Land is on 99 leasehold. At the end of the lease, the land revert back to the government and can be reuse again and again.
3. It is the duty and responsibility of government to provide land for public housing.

Based on the above reasoning, land should NOT be costed into HDB flats.

Even if we factor land cost into HDB flats, the land cost for a 1,000 sq ft flat is $100,000. HDB would still be making REAL profits.

LZH’s average selling price ( $293,000) less average building cost ($120,602) less land costs ($100,000) = profit of $72,398

Land cost is calculated based on the following:

Recent tenders for government land for private housing is around $200 per sq. ft per plot ratio. The plot ratio for private condominiums is usually 1.4 – 2.1 while HDB flats in the same area can be in the region of 2.8 – 4.0 Taking the higher plot ratio for HDB flats, the price of land per sq. ft per plot ratio is $100 (i.e. twice the number of HDB flats can be built on the same plot of land)

I hope the above makes sense.

Sorry, should be LSH and not LZH

PAP promise of low cost housing and shelter for citizen? Vote MBT out and send a strong message to HDB and gov.

The cost is a secret for national security reasons.

It’s to keep citizens at work for the economy.

They also cannot reveal their profits because most likely they are incapable of explaining why they deserve that amount.

That’s my theory for the longest time.

It shouldn’t be so hard to reveal a number.
They are hiding something most certainly.

MBT is second Teh Choon Guan (previous HBD Minister). Commiteed sucide.
Firstly Governor equire our land at What price?. Always they talk about subsidy.
Who are the one subsidy. The previous land owner. Per sq foot they only pay 35cents. Re-sell to church, Temple etc, with current market price. about S$1200 or even more, per sq foot. M I wrong. P/s respond.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/5490717/2008-09-03-Chip-Eng-Seng-wins-third-HDB-job-this-year

the site the cost in 2008. 1 flat only cost 135k!

Before Mah Bow Tan took over, Hairdo Lim already made it very clear, that the price and subsidy for the hdb flat is based on market rate and demand, not the cost, i.e. to say: if a condo (typical unit) priced at $500, 000 and you bought a hdb flat at only
$200, 000, the govt is practically subsidy $300, 000. The govt is assuming if the govt don’t build hdb flats, then you ought to ford up another $200, 000 to buy a unit of condo that you won’t be affordable, and with that, you must say a big thanks and gratitude with PAP Govt.

32) mars

Plot ratio is dependent on the DGP / Masterplan zoning, not if it is pte or HDB

and the carpark should be included in the cost of the project. so they’re collecting money every month for?

carpark is like a huge money maker here!

i pitty those who are thinking of getting married and needing a roof over their heads and queueing up to be a leaseholder. I mean so expensive leh.

Altho i pitty them, i hope they can afford to have kids.

Altho congested, i hope they have a high Quality of Life.

Altho tough, i hope they enjoy the never ending influx of competition from the world.

Altho they tired, i hope they look happy on MRTs every morning to show the tourists and expats we are happy.

I don’t understand why some still bother to try figuring out if HDB is making money from selling flats. Of course they are.

For how many years have people been asking for answers from HDB on how much it cost to build a flat and what is the actual subsidy? And what kind of answers did we get? Bullshit, right? Knowing our governement, you can be sure that if there was a real subsidy, even a small one, newspapers would be filled with detailed explanations with actual numbers to demonstrate that we are getting a good deal. But we are told nothing. There is something to hide.

So it seems pretty obvious to me that what started with good intentions many years ago has slowly become a huge cash cow. HDB is a tax, just like COE, ERP, etc. A BIG tax.

To KopitiamApek,

Yes, you are now under moderation.

Your last few postings (and even earlier ones) have been directed at making snide and disparaging remarks at fellow commenters and also at TOC itself. Remarks which are not directed at the issues in the articles.

We will not allow you to continue to do so.

TOC is not a platform where you come in and make accusations at our writers or at TOC itself.

Your comments, however, will be allowed if they are directed at the issues rather than the people who wrote the articles or at fellow commenters.

Leong S H,

I think you miss out the land value that the BBR is not buying. They get the contract to build flats, HDB provide the land and you need to include the price of land. I think HDB still earns around 70-80K per unit. Which i find it amusing about their so called market subsidy, earning huge profit and thick skinned enough to package it as subsidy.

affordable for MBT, not affordable for me….

Bloody MBT need to be skinned alive by the citizens of singapore for continue lying to the people about the huge hidden profit from selling the hdb flats. Throw him out of the country.

No wonder those MIW can still keep paying themselves those $million salaries as they already know how much they’ve accumulated all these years from robbing and cheating the singaporeans. The only way is to throw them all out of the country.

Dear Sze Hian,

It should be obvious to someone of your financial savvy that any “profit” should be calculated after considering the land cost. Herein lies the big con job. HDB would argue that the bought the land from SLA at market value at a price greater than S$172K.

How do they value the land? Based on so-called “market value”.

Who controls 100% of the supply of low to mid income strata housing, therefore the biggest determination of the so-called market price of flats? HDB itself.

HDB – SLA – CPF has ponzi scheme written all over it

The pap has underestimated the frastration of the younger generation who are struggling to buy a hdb flat.

Not to mention other misery like having to serve NS when their job security are threatened by “FTs.”

In a way, the pap are digging their own grave as this group of angry citizens will not support a government that does not provide them a future to look forward to.

50) very hsien

You are half right. The PAPa knows what he is doing, thats why you have GRC, pee65, States Times stepping up propaganda, NMP silenced, baby Lee detracting attention to race & religion, etc etc. You can bet something will happen to TOC or their writers, as I write, I think they are wrecking their brains how to deal with it.

In the article that reported £30 bil collected in tax, it listed what the money is spent on and this includes housing! As if blood sucking is not enough!

Hi guys…. why are u people still questioning HDB profiteering from us huge profit from HDB flat sales… i thought is an open secret …From all aspect of life in this sick place… we are at their mercy… skinned alive…. wat to do …no guts .. so all these people climb over our head and shit on us …. election coming… vote them out …if not just be quiet and enjoy being skinned alive….

And you believe them? *sniggers*

http://politics.sgforums.com/forums/10/topics/374180

The “SALE Price” of a private apartment in JB is RM$172,000 (SG$70,000), sale price includes construction cost, land price and profit for the developer.

The construction cost of SG$121,000 for a 4 Room HDB surely doesn’t sound logical.

You sure they didn’t include the multi-storey carpark, overhead bridge, community centre, roads, etc into the construction cost? LOL

Maybe they imposed duties and taxes of 100% on sand, cement, tiles and iron. LOL

Mah bow tan is probably the most inadequate speaker around, no charisma at all. Its so painfull to hear him utter anything but I didnt turn off my TV when he spoke recently at the topping ceremony of the new 50 story HDB flats at Tanjong pagar area…..I didnt turn off the tv because what he was saying was so ”idiotic”……I had to listen.Perhaps this is one reason I watch soaps like desperate housewives & hate it when ”today in parliament” eats into the 10pm slot!

He said something like this…..its not word for word bear this in mind….but the crux of the matter is there.
It all sounds like the HDB is ’stage-managing’ HDB prices.
”When you buy a HDB, we make sure you make a profit when you move in.Whilst you stay in it, the price also goes up.When you retire, we ensure you cash in on the ”reverse-mortgage” scheme at a handsome profit”.

Perhaps that speech says it all…..whatever positive context Mr Ma meant, it certainly didnt come out that way.I heard it as ‘price staging”…..very negative.
Perhaps if HDB appears to be able to stage manage prices….we ask what else is stage managed in this country?

Perhaps the authorities should consider more transparency in this country then we wont have so many citizens asking & guessing all over the place as seen in this forum…… on what it cost to build a HDB? How much is HDB’s profits.

Land cost, a big item, should be included.
LSH – that is a mighty big slip-up. You mean you can buy a 99-year leashold private condo without factoring in the land cost?

The opposition party is weak, nobody can stand against the machine… We need somebody capable to lead us out of this misery.

I agree with the govt that most of us are doing alright. But the way the country is ran is driving our citizens to the wall.

We are too afraid to voice out, we keep it within ourselves and many of us are have become very angry people. The fast pace of life in Singapore made us impatient and unforgiving. I foresee more social and domestic violence.

And the repressive regime, the high standard of living has turn us to economic machines. In the eyes of our rulers we have always been used for their selfish gains.

What are we working for? To be the best? But for what, we don’t even have a values any more. Public housing build to profit from its people…

Why make it so complicated? Public housing should be made affordable for citizens.

4) Yamamoto

So i wonder how will my dear Rod reply to this? so how do Rod justify this? ”

In my opinion, they won’t justify at all as they will have to open up the cost book and the model. in the 70s, a 3/4-room HDB flat only cost 50-60k; now it cost $200-500k depending on location and whom you buy from (HDB or resale market).

Anyway, it is a well-known fact that property price in singapore is controlled – just look at who make the final endorsement for all the HDB evaluation – by HDB themselves. So there is no surprisingly that housing price has to increase year by year.

Looking back, we are now STUCK – 80% of singaporeans are staying in HDB. Most people between 35 and beyond owned a flat purchased at the so-called “subsidized” rate (unless you’re the early bird which should have sold the HDB by now). If HDB lowered the flat price by say 30% – a hugh portion of 80% singaporeans’ wealth will be wiped off instantly – this is not a joke.

On the other hand, if we keep increasing the cost of living, Singaporeans or foreign immigrants (unless you are the top 5% rich people in town) will struggle and we will continue to have problems will birth rates, work/life balance, etc. We are threading a dedicated path here – and this problem wasn’t created in one day, it was there all along – partly due to general Singaporeans’ apathy nature and due to the fact that we have a “Singapore Inc” government.

However, the call for transparency and accountability cannot be undermined despite the cost/impact. It’s the only way we can move forward and get out of this spiral curve (in economics, it’s call Philip’s curve – where the only way is down).

I hope someone/anyone can share/shed some light how we can maintain the peoples’ wealth and at the same time, reduce the prices of PUBLIC HOUSING so that we don’t have to import more foreigners than necessary to artificially inflat the prices.

I cannot understand what kind of subsidy HDB giving us. Comparing a new flat cost and a resale flat cost? When we buy a new HDB flat the cost is cheaper than the cost of the resale flat, why?

Example, when I buy a car at $100,000 including the COE for ten years, When I sell away my car at 5 years later, my selling cost will not be high then the new car cost, right! This is call “Dispreciation cost”

So, why HDB resale flat valuation cost are so much higher than the new flat cost? While HDB flat are only 99 years lease. Isn’t it funny, and when the HDB flat 99 years lease expiry, HDB can take our back without paying us any valuation cost of the flat. Is this fair for us? So where is the “Dispreciation Cost” for HDB Resale Flat?

And why the valuation cost so higher than the New HDB Flat? How the Valuation Officers does the valuation cost? Basing on what cost?

So not only there are NO subsidy given to us, the HDB flat so call ” OURS ” will cost ZERO after 99 years have run out.

55) 56) I agree fully with you. The whole economic thing and the way the country is run is like a big company. The problem is they can’t “sack” us, I myself was terminated at the end of July due to “political”reasons. I noticed too people are getting very impatient, angry and indifferent. This whole housing thing is a big sham, and the people will eventually suffer. Those who bought high are now suffering with the job losses etc. There will always be a tipping point in every country, history has shown.

55) Libération

“The opposition party is weak, nobody can stand against the machine… We need somebody capable to lead us out of this misery.”

In one statement, you’ve contradicted yourself.

Francis Seow, JBJ, Tan Liang Hong, Chee Soon Juan, – whom have Singaporeans supported in the past? The issue is not that Opposition is weak, the problem is Singaporeans give “blank” cheque to the current regime to do what they want and whenever the please.

If you are up against a machine to do “whatever they want and whenever they please”, how can you complain the opposing party to be weak?

lee kuan yew say pap can last for two more election….

#60,

“So not only there are NO subsidy given to us, the HDB flat so call ” OURS ” will cost ZERO after 99 years have run out. ”

I not sure if i am right or wrong, nor how the rest of you flat dwellers think,
I have always known that my flat is LEASED. I do not own the flat per se.
I own a piece of lease.
I am what i am,
I am the LEASEHOLDER.
I lease.

Damn them and their greedy hands.

I so desperately want to buy a house and start a family….I have saved so hard…yet still have not enough!

Where is a good opposition to help us?

it showed hand-handed, control freak, to tie ppl down in the form liability so that your mind is preoccupied with debts and responsibility and no time for politic.

it is a smart trick method used among by highly intelligent politician in developed country.

I also refer to media reports (“SGX mainboard-listed BBR secures S$104.2m HDB contract”, ChannelNewsAsia, Aug 17) that Singapore Exchange’s mainboard-listed BBR Holdings has secured a S$104.2-million contract from the Housing & Development Board (HDB) to build seven blocks of flats in Yishun Neighbourhood 4.

But what kind of flats are those? It wasn’t stated in that linked article. For all we know, it may be one of those 8-room HDB flats meant for the minister’s maids… erm, I mean, for those hardworking, elderly pioneers of our society.

In any case, given that HDB have conjoined lips over the pricing of flats, it’s sharp-eyed of you to pick that up amongst the dribbles of their media correspondences.

Quoted from today’s CNA.

“‘Public housing prices have gone up by almost 35 per cent over the last two years and the government said it is expecting prices to increase even further. However, it said buyers should not be complaining because these price increases are part of the reason why people invest in the first place.

Mr Mah added: “When you buy an HDB flat, you are investing for your future. We subsidise when you buy, we increase the value of the flat as you live in it and encourage you or facilitate you to cash out when you grow old.”

Mr Mah was speaking on Wednesday at the launch of the final skybridge at the Pinnacle @ Duxton, Singapore’s tallest public housing project.

He said while public housing remains affordable, with a range of flats to suit people from all levels of income, Singaporeans should continue to buy within their means. — CNA/vm’

Time to go Mr MBT as you don’t know what you are talking about… nor the feelings of the ground anymore…

The feelings on the ground is that the HDB prices have risen to unrealistic and almost unhealthy levels. I would say that “affordability” is the crux of the problem; by making it easy to get large loans to buy flats, those who normally could not afford those flats will be able to buy them. Since the demand side’s affordability is not a problem and supply is controlled, prices will go up ala the US subprime loan crisis.

To be fair,
given the announcement that prices will be going up by a few percentages,
those who paid and paid for the expensive flats might Feel Good.

But for how long will this last?

I foresee somewhere in the 1st quarter. and then ……

Ultimately, it is slavery for Singaporeans.

Sad.

68) Bananarama on September 3rd, 2009 1.39 pm ,

‘Mr Mah added: “When you buy an HDB flat, you are investing for your future. We subsidise when you buy, we increase the value of the flat as you live in it and encourage you or facilitate you to cash out when you grow old.’

1. first, he is control of the numbers of flats to be build upon respond as well land control.
2. part of pap team, his kaki MOM would simply increase PRs so that they buy up the resale flats (that’s why resale flats had increased lately) and singapore as well as New citizens would buy new flats which supposed to be ‘affordable’ as commented by him.

so, you catch the game?

The only profit- maximising govt in the world.
A typical govt dept is now run by a scholar–possibly NS EXEMPTED ex alien–that has contracted its work out. Its KPI is to see how much profit it can generate from the citizenry.
Then channel the money to TH to gamble on foreign banks.
Welcome to uniquely SIN—gapore.
[or SIN--get-more]

Hi folks,
The remarks contributed certainly shows that some of you do have basic knowledge of Real Estate. However, things do not work out just based on single perspective. My opinion is to look at things from wider perspective. Underlying every policy there is a rationale. Unfortunately, it may not be favorable to everyone. But it certainly benefit the community at large.

I disagreed with the comment over Minister. Think of the changes and transformation from overcrowded squatter to a vibrant city, “Singapore”.

Mr Mah and his team from MND has certainly put in a lot of effort in the transformation. Let’s acknowledge the effort.

ApApA

post #71 on September 3rd, 2009 2.30 pm

“Ultimately, it is slavery for Singaporeans.”

yeah loh…

you made a home for us usngaporeans from just a bricks that’s ok,but you sell it to us for $300 thousand and it is ours for only 99year?? that is rather too greedy i would say!

in other countries if you spend $300thousands, you will get a landed property, a bungalow 3storey and it is yours for life!

we have to vote out pap and we no longer need lee kuan yew. he had hold singapore too long and from caring for singaporeans has turn him to greediness and gaining more wealth and more and more and lesser it become for we singaporeans.

if pap win the next election god bless all of you.

Hey you Singaporeans stop complaining. You voted for this government. Blame yourselves.

You complain about foreigners but I can stilll come in. You need us. Your government says that you need us. We provide 40 over % of your GDP.

You complain about Ho Ching and Billions of dollars lost but I am sure all of you will still vote for PAP.

You always do.

Look at your MM Lee. The old man is 100% sure he will win the next 2 elections.

Just like the Americans and Bush, you Singaporeans chose your own fate.

No pity from me.

If you are too poor to buy a flat, we can. Just try to squeeze with your parents.

#77 Foreign Talent

Hope the PAP leadership read TOC and take note of your comment.

They will be so proud of you and of their immigration policies.

77) Foreign Talent on September 3rd, 2009 8.31 pm

Maybe u mistaken the readers here lah.
Many people are apathetic and only has time to work and sleep and maybe play some balls and eat and eat, drink and drink, dance and dance. They where got time to put on their thinking hats and analyse the situation?

So, you are right that people are complaining.
You may be mistaken that these may not be the ones who would for ‘them’.

Actually, no one technically knows for sure how many of the electorate , IF there is no walkovers, would actually vote or not vote for them. To be fair, we give and take +/-5% voters who may not somehow vote or spoil the vote (of course i never know of anyone like that). 95% should be very accurate.

Any of you feel free to challenge what i said. If you can convince me , i kudos you.
If you cannot, I accept.

Dear fellow frustrated Singaporeans,

let’s make our voice be heard by the Singapore govt. & public through media, petitions . We are a sandwiched group, unable to pay the high COV, yet not able to ballot successfully in the limited new “subsidized” flats. It’s really sad that middle & low income Singaporeans have been treated in this manner by our own country.

Please help to sign up your petition below:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/lower-hdb-valuations-or-build-more-affordable-hdb-housing-for-singaporeans

Your are considered wealthy ONLY when you are not in debt.

79) Robert Cornado

You are right. Nobody will ever know.

My personal belief is that the opposition are people who will do their best in trying to win, especially they stand to lose their electoral deposit if they do badly.

We all know that opposition do not have enough candidates to fight all places, so they will have to prioritize. And obviously, they will fight in places they think that they have the highest chance of winning.

If the support in places they choose to fight is lower than 50%, I probably think that those places they choose not to fight (walkover) will definitely be lower than 50%. Once you zoom out, that will mean overall true support for opposition is lower than 50%, taking into account the walkover wards.

Of course, my guess is based on assumption (i) opposition is out to win (ii) opposition strategize to get the most seats. If those assumptions are not true, then probably more reflection is needed on the type of opposition we have.

I think the main contention is- are opposition getting the number of seats they deserve under proportionate system. I don’t think anyone really thinks that we are experiencing a freak result where the opposition should be the government.

59) Dumb and dumber

“Looking back, we are now STUCK – 80% of singaporeans are staying in HDB. Most people between 35 and beyond owned a flat purchased at the so-called “subsidized” rate (unless you’re the early bird which should have sold the HDB by now). If HDB lowered the flat price by say 30% – a hugh portion of 80% singaporeans’ wealth will be wiped off instantly – this is not a joke.”

I am relieved that i’m not the only one who thinks that way.
If we devalue the prices now, we benefit 20% of people (new buyers) but wipe out the savings of 80% of the population.

I think there is nothing we can do about the past, once prices are at this level, it it impossible to turn back the clock.

But there is something we can do about the future. What the govt can do is to manage the prices such that ‘housing inflation’ falls below ‘price inflation’ and especially wage increase. So while the house price remain the same, the share of income will decrease. And that probably matters more because it affects take-home pay.

I am curious, but assuming that you are privy to the cost price of the HDB flat (as in the case of these 7 blocks of flats), which is <$121k, why would one prefer to fork out additional capital? It should be a buyer willing to pay slightly more than its cost price. However, if it is not the case then continue to my next question.

I am curious, but if the issue here is not one of a buyer paying slightly more than its expected cost, then there will be the assumption that both supply and demand functions are mismanaged?

I am curious, why don't the other private housing developers make affordable housing where apparently there is a market for it?

Mr Mah was quoted, “When you buy an HDB flat, you are investing for your future. We subsidise when you buy, we increase the value of the flat as you live in it and encourage you or facilitate you to cash out when you grow old.”

I am curious, is it because he has prior knowledge most of us will not be able to have a sizeable retirement fund? And thus he endows us with the facility of a cash out.

I am curious, why is there a need to have to subsidies when we do not want our citizenry to have developed a clutch mentality?

I am curious, is the subsidy there because we have difficulty finding financing?

I am curious, what are the demographics of the common HDB dwellers, a nucleus of a husband and wife with 2 incomes, or a single parent, or elderly, etc?

Lastly I am extremely curious, as with history, properties could be passed down from generations, how many generations would it take before the flat's ownership would be transferred?

Cautiously Curious

No wonder Singaporeans do not want to have kids. Who wants to give birth to slaves?

And please, you are not PURCHASING a flat; You are RENTING one.

84) duyde on September 4th, 2009 6.29 am
“…And please, you are not PURCHASING a flat; You are RENTING one.”

I have to correct you, I found out the correct word to use is LEASING, as in LeaseHolders

yes, there is such a word. See :

Someone who owns a property, but not the land it stands on, for a fixed period of time.
http://www.paygprops.com/index.aspx/pcms/site.news.buy_to_let_jargon/

Online Petition to urge govt. to lower HDB prices and increase new flat supply.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/lower-hdb-valuations-or-build-more-affordable-hdb-housing-for-singaporeans

Haha…83) RW

Wage increase?

Dream on.

As long as some of us PR grads are willing to accept $2k, you think you will have more pay?

You Singaporeans either complain or day-dream. It is so funny.

87) Foreign Talent

There are two games to be played- cost and quality.
If FTs main game is to play cost, so be it.
I am sure there is much sense of achievement in winning- and getting lowest possible pay.

For me (and hopefully the rest of the population), I intend to play quality.

That means i will not just sit down and complain how unfair life is,
but I will actively seek opportunities to improve myself and differentiate myself based on the value-addition i bring.

To me, it is about attitude. So BRING IT ON! ;)

88) RW

You do not realise the futility of your efforts.

Basically you need to work for twice as long to have the mere semblance of the life possible of a retired PR. Going home, we can buy large landed houses and cars. Knock yourself out with your Seniors EZ-link.

An average PR can also go back home, rent out his HDB and pay the installments for both his house in SG and his house back at home, do nothing all day and still have money left over.

Foreigners now stand 34% of your population, yet provides 44% of your GDP. Who earns more?

GDP per capital (of everyone inside SG) is $4k+. GNP per capita (of locals) is $2k+. Who earns more?

I believe what you can do, foreigners can do better and cheaper.

Oh…good attitude by the way.

Screwed by our elites, screwed by our PRs and screwed by our cheap foreign workers. How much more do you want to take all this shit from them?

Stand up for your rights, Singaporeans! Don’t be a slave to them anymore!

It’s time we take back our country from the exploiters and opportunists!

Petition for HDB to re-evaluation resale HDB prices, high COV and increase supply of new HDB.

Goal of this online petition is to obtain 1000 signatures.
We will then submit the petition to the relevant media and authority.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/lower-hdb-valuations-or-build-more-affordable-hdb-housing-for-singaporeans

Foreign Talent # 77 & # 89.

To be fair, your points are valid.

They come from your living experiences.

Wish our PAP Ministers are as insightful as you… but I am doubt it, as they are living in cucoo land now and earning in the millions not in the 2K or 3 K level like most citizens.

Sad that they have lost touch with the common people as can be seen from the insensitive comment by MBT.

I voted for them in the last election but for sure will get my vote the next round.

Correction :

The last sentence in # 92 should read as :

I voted for them in the last election but for sure they will not get my vote the next round.

[i]No pity from me.

If you are too poor to buy a flat, we can. Just try to squeeze with your parents. [/i]
did you brin your parents over?
if not
i pity you as well unless you want to says you have 100 brothers 200 sisters lark…

TOC is not a platform where you come in and make accusations at our writers or at TOC itself, really?

Your writers are shielded from unfavourable remarks when they made accusation in their articles?

May I ask how many similar posters with views differing from TOC are being “moderated” by TOC?

Are you not painting a wrong picture for the readers if you are really doing that?

[...] Bow Tan: HDB resale prices to rise, but still “affordable” as they are “subsidized” – TOC: Cost of building HDB flats – finally an answer? – The Temasek Review: HDB flats will be “severely unaffordable” using the Median Multiple as a [...]

Actually there is a solution to make flats more affordable to young locals without devaluation the value of existing flats.

Your government can waive the profiteering ($172,398) when selling to young Singaporeans and stop new owners from reselling their flats for ten years.

But I am skeptical if your government will do this to help young Singaporeans. I mean, they will lose the chance to earn so much money.

Really feel sad for you people.

//kickedforeigndevil

Who can afford to have more than 10 children in singapore now or for the last 20 years?

Joking.

i believe mr foreign talent is a local

he used provocative language to shake u up. say thnaks to him…

my approach in next GE
1) If the opposition is good and proven, vote him/her in

2) If the opposition candidates are as new and un-tested as pap candidates, vote opposition

3) If the opposition candidates are ill prepared, i will spoil my vote.

in net, no vote for pappies till they kneel in front of people

hdb increase valuation, is a way to transfer cash from better to do people to low income and aged, but at people’s expense

This is a way to please and buy votes from the retirees, and govt happily walk away from the responsibilities of taking care of the generation(s) that contributed to sg’s progress

The pap takes billion in salary to claim that credit, at the expense of FIFTY YEAR OF LOYAL Singaporean.

and they use hdb loan to tie down people, so u can’t ask for where the temasek money lost to and how to get your cpf when u reach 55… the minimum sum game will go on…

Shame on a world class government !

26) George on September 2nd, 2009 3.41 pm

Sinkaporean organise a peaceful protest by say switching off their lights at home say at precisely 9pm to 9.10pm. Just 10 minutes. It is a peaceful demonstration of the collective will of the people. If the idea take off, more could be organised and one hoped the ruling regime will get the message- People are suffering and unhappy. It cost very little and there is no public demonstration and disturbance – strictly within the law.

Why not all Singaporeans take one day off work and camp outside respective HDB offices – in memory of those who cannot afford HDB housing and forced to “camp” in someone else’s home. I believe there is no law that says that you cannot camp outside HDB office – is there?

S’poreans must not be termpted by greed!!

greed makes us upgrade & upgrade in good years,
greed makes us speculate in property,
greed makes us work too hard for short term gain.

if the majority of S’poreans are not always eyeing a larger home in boom years, live a contented life within our means. we will always be working to chase a rainbow.

if we treat buying a home as a long term (min 10 years) investment, people will put more thought (family planning, increase in transport cost, fuel, time spent commuting, etc) into the purchase.

people who move from 1 home to another in a span of a few years ought to reflect deeper on their impact on (HDB) home prices. that includes true blue S’poreans who always upgrade & upgrade…

personally, when my family moved to the current place. details down to lightings are planned to be able to accommodate a range of power consumption, construction materials that are more resistant to wear & tear (function over form), maximise natural light as far as possible, increase air circulation. all in a 3-roomer, i am staying put as long as the building stands!! ;)

90) Foreign Talent

Thank you for your compliment.

You are getting me confused on your last post.
First, you said foreigners are cheap.
Then you cite GDP/capita and GNP figures, implying they earn more.
So which is it?

I agree you can have big cars/houses when you return wherever your hometown. But if we compare apples and apples, we can have the same life-style if we choose to take CPF money, go elsewhere to stay. (say Batam, like what some of our old uncles are doing now.) So, we do have a choice.

But of course, I’ll concede that you will have that life when you are at home, while we can only have it when we exile ourselves.

Abt your comment in 97)
“Your government can waive the profiteering ($172,398) when selling to young Singaporeans and stop new owners from reselling their flats for ten years.”

If new HDB prices fall, won’t it affect the resale market prices?

RW “You are getting me confused on your last post.
First, you said foreigners are cheap.
Then you cite GDP/capita and GNP figures, implying they earn more.”

There is no confusion. The cheapest of us ask for less salary than you. Yet on average we still earn more than you. Ahem..This means top foreigners still earn more than you, if you still dun realize that. We command quality as well.

RW: “So, we do have a choice.”
Pls don’t be so pitifully naive, I can’t find another country who worships foreigners like yours. When you try to buy a place in Malaysia, China or Indonesia, you will realize the costs of very heavy taxes. The police and the soldiers would also not use their lives to protect us like all Singaporean men have to. Actually, I must say thank you- for risking your lives so we dun have to. And you people are willing to do this for less than $500 a month. Wow! SO kind.

RW: “If new HDB prices fall, won’t it affect the resale market prices? ”

When your gov waive the profiteering ($172,398) when selling to young Singaporeans, there will be less of them in the open market. Price escalations would subside but should not fall. When they are required to hold their flats for 10 years before selling, that curbs speculation too.

Genuine Singaporeans hold on to their flats regardless of price rises as they need to live somewhere. The price rises benefit us foreigners the most. Upon retirement, when we sell our HDB flat in the future to some local, we easily pocket at least, at least $200k. It is as if some sucker local pay us pensions…haha.

Dear Minister MBT

Please stop patting yourself on the back.

Time to wake up from your slumber and your dream that MND is doing a good job. Read the comments on this page as well as some good ones in the petition set up here by # 80 Homeless.

Read and take note especially the comments made in petition nbrs # 17 / 44 / 48 / 59 / 72 / 73 / 79 / 84 / 86 / 89.

Get down from your high horse and you might learn something from them.

104) Foreign Talent

Ah, ok. So you do mean both things at the same time. Sorry, I was unsure if I am understanding your point correctly.

Anyway about the GDP/GNP difference- it is a mere accounting issue. As you know, GDP takes into account output of all companies in Singapore where as GNP takes into account Singaporean companies around the world.

I like to highlight that it uses companies and not individuals income.

Being the ‘FDI/MNC-phile’ that Singapore is, MNCs (non-singaporean firms) do generate a large part of our GDP. And since we do not have joint ownership requirement like CHina, these GDP is not counted as Singapore’s GNP.

But does that mean MNCs do nothing for the local economy? I think not. They still employ locals etc. So GNP does not that capture that fact, and hence the discrepancy. That being said, this is why people usually use GDP than GNP- because we are more concern about economic activity within the country than some TH/GIC companies making money overseas.

And following from that, I don’t think it accurately supports your claim that foreigners are earning more than Singaporeans- simply because the measure is not meant for that kind of interpretation.

nevertheless, i really liked that point… i never thought about the discrepancy before, so i learnt something new.

~

i think it’s not accurate to say Singaporeans can’t go anywhere else. U see so many singaporeans going out to work/study/migrate every year. That is because these countries welcome foreigners too. In fact, we are in more demand than any other nationalities. or else why should FT like yourself come and pretend to take singapore passport, only to re-migrate? FT can always use their own nationality if not for the fact that their nationality is less welcomed than Singaporeans.

Unfortunately, it’s a loophole in the system and intentions are hard to screen. Right now, the choice is between open or close the flows of foreigners. There is no effective filter to sieve out the sincere or non-sincere. So I admit we are suckers in this regard.

and i think the point about army is moot. Defense is a non-excludable good. any foreigner in any country will be defended by the local army.

~

well, what singaporeans do with our flats is to pass on to the next generation- they benefit from the increase in price. and that helps in inter-generational mobility. many older generation singaporeans are not rich and do not earn much in their lifetime, so this is one thing tehy leave behind for the next generation, especially those families that may not be earning much.

~

btw, I am enjoying getting your ‘FT’ perspective. it makes more sense than alot of other posts. so kudos to you, even if we have opposite views.

RW: “well, what singaporeans do with our flats is to pass on to the next generation- they benefit from the increase in price.”

FT: Well, then you would need very short lives. Otherwise there won’t be much of the 99 years for the next generation…haha. Property values depreciate with time, especially when you don’t even own the place you lease.

RW: “i think it’s not accurate to say Singaporeans can’t go anywhere else. U see so many singaporeans going out to work/study/migrate every year. That is because these countries welcome foreigners too.”

FT: Singaporeans are only welcomed overseas as you pay exorbitant university fees, and the countries can tax you more heavily to take care of their locals. Because of this, I love Singapore. Singapore does not charge us foreigners at all to care for locals like you. Nice…

RW: “GDP takes into account output of all companies in Singapore where as GNP takes into account Singaporean companies around the world.”

FT: Actually you need to read up on your econs. GDP and GNP is about people, not companies. We still make more than locals. Stop kidding yourself.

RW: “But does that mean MNCs do nothing for the local economy? I think not. They still employ locals”

FT: MNCs have to suffer this due to local:foreigner ratios they have to follow. The companies I have heard of, hire as little locals as they can to satisfy the ratio…marginally.

RW: “why should FT like yourself come and pretend to take singapore passport”

FT: Unless we are thinking of going to Aust or US, we won’t even want to touch the SG passport. Trust me, it is much much better to remain a PR then become a citizen any day.

RW: “and i think the point about army is moot. Defense is a non-excludable good. any foreigner in any country will be defended by the local army.”

FT: Yeah, but only in Singapore do foreigners enjoy the luxury of one soldier to one foreigner ratio. (1/3 of SG population is foreigners. Assume 0.5 of the remaining 2/3 are men.) It is like each of us have a personal body guard. Super nice…

112) Foreign Talent & RW

If I may intuide into this interesting discussion……..

////// RW: “well, what singaporeans do with our flats is to pass on to the next generation- they benefit from the increase in price.”

FT: Well, then you would need very short lives. Otherwise there won’t be much of the 99 years for the next generation…haha. Property values depreciate with time, ////////

Provided there is procreation, and since nowadays people marry and have kids in their early 30s, they will buy flat when 30 years old, then a 99 years property lasts roughly 3 to 4 generations.
Property values do not depreciate with age, on the contrary, in land scarce SG, it goes up, and even faster in better locations.

//Provided there is procreation, and since nowadays people marry and have kids in their early 30s, they will buy flat when 30 years old, then a 99 years property lasts roughly 3 to 4 generations.
Property values do not depreciate with age, on the contrary, in land scarce SG, it goes up, and even faster in better locations.

The fact that people are not procreating that shows that they have no confidence in this govt.

Also, imagine you have a 3 bed rooms.

You have 2 children.

When they get married, you are probably 50++.

You have roughly another 35 years of lives.

So, the children (as suggested by KopitiamApek ) lives with their parents after marriage and have children of their own and wait for 30++ years before they can have the extra room.

Only then will they have some advantage as described by KopitiamApek .

Can anyone see how ridiculous this is?

If our govt thinks like KopitiamApek , we will be all be crampled into the mini HDB prison all our lives.

114) FPC

Please read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote.

Re: 56) T on September 3rd, 2009 8.55 am Land cost, a big item, should be included.
LSH – that is a mighty big slip-up. You mean you can buy a 99-year leashold private condo without factoring in the land cost?
====================================

Hello T,
what land cost of hdb flat, they are built on states land and most are acquired at low cost ( low compensation when govt re-locate the initial resident ).

Private condo land is leased by bidding,

Simply, like Chiam See Tong asked in parliament in 1985/6, for a P&L statements from HDB, 23 years later, govt is still hiding the truth

108) Apek

“Property values do not depreciate with age, on the contrary, in land scarce SG, it goes up, and even faster in better locations.”

I think what they mean is that the base value depreciates as the lease is drawn down. That much is a certainty. The market value might well appreciate.

“then a 99 years property lasts roughly 3 to 4 generations.”

I seriously doubt the structural integrity of the building would last past 50 years. esp given the quality of the materials and methods used in the past. Same as to whether HDB would actually allow you to serve out the entire lease without en bloc.

I would not touch a 50 year old flat with a 10 foot pole, much less live in it.

A huge untouched issue is the loss of control over what happens to your property. This is one of the inherent differences between landed properties and apartments.

Here overseas, if i own a landed property, I pass the title down to my children. after 50 years when the house is falling apart, he simply tears it down and builds a new one.

If you live in an private apartment, its harder. Any communal improvement, you must get the approval of the body corporate and neighbours. You can get en bloced and forced to move out. If HDB, even worse. You can get resettled or en bloc at any time. There is no certainty, no control.

How can you be so sure you even get to pass your leasehold “property” down to your children?

Why am I so scared of en bloc?

Housing values are made up of a land and building component. Typically land appreciates and building depreciates over time. Housing values increase when the land component appreciates more than the building component depreciates. That’s why we have 30 year old 3 room flats in bugis selling for 300K.

That’s why we always talk about LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION. because it is the location of the land which is valuable.

If your good location is en bloced and you are forced to move to a lousy location, that’s as good as robbery.

Another thing a lot of the blogs missed.

The limit to which the prices can go is defined by our incomes. Anything beyond would be a bubble.

Given that the median individual income in SG is about 2500/month and household income is about 3500/month, and that I don’t see salaries rising anytime soon, I don’t see how HDB prices can sustainably rise further.

107) Foreign Talent

Hi FT, thanks for your comments. Here is my reply…

On housing:
Well, that’s what people do with their houses. If your point is only foreigners can sell their houses, that is not entirely true. Singaporeans do that too, albeit at a later time. Probably the value will depreciate as time goes by, but then Singaporeans these days change their houses a few times, so they not necessarily will end with a 50 yr old house (assuming bought first house at 30) when they are 80 years old.

On Singapore mobility:
True, foreigners pay higher uni fees than locals in other countries. But tax? I am not sure if I have come across a tax scheme that charges foreigner a different personal tax rate than locals. I thought most countries are based on level of income regardless local or foreigner. Maybe you have specific examples in mind?

And in any case, comparing Singaporeans with other nationalities, it is much easier for Singaporeans to migrate to other places. By the fact FTs remigrating through Singapore citizenship, substantiates the point. That shows we are more mobile than many other countries’ citizens.

But of course, if you compare citizenship and PR, then you are right- the difference in benefits for citizen is marginally more. So I am not surprised if foreigners prefer to be PR.

On GDP-GNP:
Seems like we disagree on the definition. I’ll admit that it’s been a while since I did the econ thing. From my memory… and I double-checked online
(See-(www).news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/88618.stm ), firm income are the ones being used. And that makes sense to me since it is easier to get firm income than personal income, especially from overseas.

But of course, I stand to be corrected if some economist/statistician wants to weigh in on this technical part.

On defense:
I can’t say I follow your logic. The higher the “soldier to foreigner” ratio, the happier one is? In that case, one should go to a country where he is the only foreigner, so that the ratio will be very high and he can feel extremely lucky and loved, being protected all those soldiers. Better than having a personal body guard, you can actually have your own personal army! :)

107) Foreign Talent

As an aside, i realised we have digressed quite a fair bit from housing to foreign talent topic. And i see some others are trying to refocus the discussion back on housing.

I admit I can get carried away sometimes. I’ll try to focus more on housing from now on.

117) Melbourne

////I seriously doubt the structural integrity of the building would last past 50 years. esp given the quality of the materials and methods used in the past. I would not touch a 50 year old flat with a 10 foot pole, much less live in it./////

those built in the 70s are really bad. I will extend your pole to 100 feet, as the tall block will topple over :)
those built after mid 80s are ok. the QC got better by then.

No HDB flat has exceeded that age yet. The earliest built by its predecessors SIT in the 60s in Queenstown, Tiong Bahru were mostly torn down by now.
The concrete designed strength of the old blocks is less than half of the required minimum standard today. Some blocks are en bloc because they are structurally unsound, They do test on the structurlal integrity to figure that out. but of course HDB will not cause a panic by telling you that, they will say oh we are giving a a brand new flat

//// Same as to whether HDB would actually allow you to serve out the entire lease without en bloc.///

I doubt if that will happen, unless you live in a very ulu corner of SG.

//// A huge untouched issue is the loss of control over what happens to your property. This is one of the inherent differences between landed properties and apartments. ////

Actually in land scrarce SG, even land property is no guarantee, due to the land aquisition act.

/////How can you be so sure you even get to pass your leasehold “property” down to your children?//////

That is the reality of living in land scarce SG. But you must get on board early on the property “train” to ride with the rising property prices, if you are waiting at the tracks, you may never board this train.

////Housing values are made up of a land and building component. Typically land appreciates and building depreciates over time. Housing values increase when the land component appreciates more than the building component depreciates. That’s why we have 30 year old 3 room flats in bugis selling for 300K.//////

You are spot on correct.
Land is the finite commodity that keeps getting dearer. Ever more so in tiny little red dot here.
That’s why Laguna Park is asking for a billion bucks. The buyer is buying the land and the potential to maximise the GFA to the current plot ratio. The existing structure is more of a liability really as the buyer has to spend money tearing it down.

///That’s why we always talk about LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION. because it is the location of the land which is valuable.//////

You are right again. Location IS everything indeed.

/// If your good location is en bloced and you are forced to move to a lousy location, that’s as good as robbery. /////

So far HDB replacement flats are relatively near to the original location of the flats affected by en bloc. As far if they still do this in future, your guess is as good as mine.

Re:
(112) Melbourne and (116) Apek

Location is always the key factor in valuation.

But govt bought many land at low price, they displaced at low compensation of land price ( Book Value ) the whole Jalan Kayu estate, Teck Hock ( Defu ) village, Tampines village and left them epmpty for 10 years before they build hdb flat, then they use latest land price (Market Value) for their accounting of housing price

This is a way to deplete profit margin and manipulate P&L.

If pap relocate you to a new flat nearby, says, in a good location, that is because those land were acquired dirt cheap and use dto be rental old blocks, so don’t be swayed by them in this good gesture,

As Apek said in earlier post, many old flat especially built in early 70s, are already in bad shape, even interim upgrading is for extending the life span,

HDB has to demolish them before any mishap may happen, isays, in a massive earth quake in Java one day, how many of these old flats could remain structurally safe.

If pap relocate you to a new flat nearby, says, in a good location, that is because those land were acquired dirt cheap and used to be rental old blocks, so don’t be swayed by them in this good gesture,

As Apek said in earlier post, many old flat especially built in early 70s, are already in bad shape, even iby nterim upgrading can merely extend 10 or 20 years life span,

HDB has to demolish them before any mishap may happen, says, in a massive earth quake in Java one day, how many of these old flats could remain structurally safe ?

124) Wee Kim Han

all building ins SG HDB or pte is not designed for earthqueake as it is not required in the building code.

SG is not in any earthquake zone.

Hello Apek
If u live in east coast, tanjong rhu, did you not feel the earth quake that brought in Tsunami in Dec 2004 ?

The earth quake belt is a dynamic movement zone, it may shift, of cos it may take decade or a century but nobody can be sure that old hdb flats were adequately built.

This time, the smart apek get brainwashed by govt data :)

lol

hmmm, talking about quakes, in the even of a freak accident like older HDB suffering damage as a result of an earthquake in Indonesia. resulting in damage of personal property, will HDB compensate the home owners (or leaseholders)?

since they are following the building code thought up years back. & building codes are not updated to reflect the evolving shift in environmental threats like stronger earthquakes. its not home owners fault if things are damaged right?

if carpark collapse…

If the price of HDB keeps increasing at a rate of 5% annually, a SGD400k 4room will cost SGD650k in 10 years. If you factor in the interest rate, it will cost above SGD800k. Of course all house owners do not want their property devalued, but if the HDB & COV prices are not kept in track, our younger generations will not be able to pay for their own apartment without a 40 or even 50 years HDB loan period.

In 1990, Japan properties has surged to a dangerous level with home prices that required two generations to pay. The bubble was so severe that it finally burst, resulting in the property prices reaching the bottom in 10 years later. It is human nature to express excessive exuberance, but it is the govt. duty to keep track of excessive speculations and potential bubble. If left untrack, the bubble will be create social problems, increase in rich-poverty gap and hyper inflation. When it finally bursts, the result will be catastrophic(look at US 1929 great depression, Japan 1990 depression and recent subprime crisis). These are all results of stocks and property bubbles that bursted. Pls take note that rental rate is dropping for past few quarters and it is senseless that prices are still breaking record highs.

Same for recent COV, HDB & condo prices. We need to join hands to prevent our basic form of living to be exploited by errant agents and greedy speculators.

Pls spread the word and let the relevant authorities hear about what our youngsters are facing now before it’s too late.
==> http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/lower-hdb-valuations-or-build-more-affordable-hdb-housing-for-singaporeans

126) EW Barkers
/////This time, the smart apek get brainwashed by govt data ///////

I think this kind of remarks is uncalled for.
You are implying that earthquake zones are determined by govt.?

////If u live in east coast, tanjong rhu, did you not feel the earth quake that brought in Tsunami in Dec 2004 ?///////////

No doubt it is felt, but please go research about the effect of this “feeling” on buildings in SG

/////The earth quake belt is a dynamic movement zone, it may shift, of cos it may take decade or a century /////////

The fault lines shifts? Wow that must be a new geophraphical theory. Care to share more about it so that we all can learn?

KopitiamApek,

post #125 on September 9th, 2009 12.33 am

“You are implying that earthquake zones are determined by govt.?”

does govt keep up-to-date about the increasing intensity of the earthquakes? just because studies have (or had) shown S’pore’s buildings will not collapse from distant quakes, the fact that tremors are felt by occupants means there is an effect.

what if tremors cause property damages? should HDB not compensate for any damge resulting from it, since HDB chose to follow whatever building codes of their choice?

“No doubt it is felt, but please go research about the effect of this “feeling” on buildings in SG”

if office buildings are evacuated for safety reasons, what more of HDB blocks. with that in mind, why even need to research the effect of this “feeling”?

why cant you be gracious enough to post some links? for all you know research may yield half truths, contradicting “facts” & lots of rubbish, & posters may think you are sprouting rubbish… ideally, try to minimise such misunderstanding mah. ;)

Re
125) KopitiamApek on September 9th, 2009 12.33 am 126) EW Barkers
/////This time, the smart apek get brainwashed by govt data ///////

I think this kind of remarks is uncalled for.
You are implying that earthquake zones are determined by govt.?

hello apek, i m no expert in earth quake theory, but
1) I did not say earth quake is determined by govt, i mean, HDB safety data is studied and released by govt, which may be outdated as flats get aged and decay begins
2) The fault line may not move but frequency and severity of the qualkes may intensify

My aplology if i stepped on your nerves carelessly,
I think that we Singaporeans need more sense of humors like the Americans in political discussion. I hope.

First ………….COE
then………….. ERP
followed by ..GST
and now……. COV
mati sayang……………..???

131) E W Barkers

I like your graceful respond. Great and thank you.

/////1) I did not say earth quake is determined by govt, i mean, HDB safety data is studied and released by govt, which may be outdated as flats get aged and decay begins///////

fair statement
construction technology improves over the past few decades

//////2) The fault line may not move but frequency and severity of the qualkes may intensify ////////////

another fair statement
glad you agree fault line do not move, otherwise this world is gonna be a real unpredictable place to live in

/////My aplology if i stepped on your nerves carelessly, ///////

Your graceful apology humbly accepted.

//// I think that we Singaporeans need more sense of humors like the Americans in political discussion. I hope. //////

I do not know how humourous Americans are when discussing politics. Never seen George Bush laugh. Obama smiles more. Clinton does that quite a bit. Carter fakes one.

HDB is HDB and noting comes close to Condo living,,,,,,,,,,facts are facts!!

130) mice is nice

http://app2.nea.gov.sg/earthquakes.aspx

//////does govt keep up-to-date about the increasing intensity of the earthquakes? just because studies have (or had) shown S’pore’s buildings will not collapse from distant quakes, the fact that tremors are felt by occupants means there is an effect. //////

Taipei 101 is typhoon proof and earthquake proof, but occupants will still feel the movement, as buildings are design to sway within a permissible range, a rigid structure will fail. Bridges are also designed to move with the natural elements.You can see bearing plates under the fyovers that allows it to expand and contract with the weather.

//////what if tremors cause property damages? should HDB not compensate for any damge resulting from it, since HDB chose to follow whatever building codes of their choice? ///////

I have no idea if HDB or any building develeoper will compensate you.

It certainly will be a sad day for mankind if researches” yield half truths, contradicting “facts” & lots of rubbish, ”

I could not have been “sprouting rubbish” yet as I have not quoted any of such researcher you mentioned…

////// ideally, try to minimise such misunderstanding mah. /////
many posters here have turned this into an artform.

KopitiamApek

post #131 on September 9th, 2009 10.21 pm

http://app2.nea.gov.sg/earthquakes.aspx

thanks for the link. ;)

“Taipei 101 is typhoon proof and earthquake proof, but occupants will still feel the movement, as buildings are design to sway within a permissible range, a rigid structure will fail. Bridges are also designed to move with the natural elements.You can see bearing plates under the fyovers that allows it to expand and contract with the weather.”

eh, to compare our (mostly) modest dwellings to an icon like Taipei 101 is not fair. with most HDB not exceeding 30 storeys, except Duxton Plain. most blocks will not sway that much.

yes, agree major public works take into account expansion & contraction due to weather changes throughout the day & night. keke….

“I have no idea if HDB or any building developer will compensate you.”

me too, but my guess, unlikely…

“I could not have been “sprouting rubbish” yet as I have not quoted any of such researcher you mentioned…”

not really loh, as long as you said something, it does not matter if you have a weblink to back your words up. in the end, its what you say, & dun be like Lim SS, say & say….

true lah, but you never know online how quick people are at that “sport”. lol….
owls always say “hoot hoot hoot” wan, haa…

“many posters here have turned this into an artform.”

den dun be like them lah. ;)

80% of the population are LESSEE and are they paying high price to lease a flat from HDB? Confusing………..

when most people do not have a real choice, they are exploited….

those who have (a choice) buy landed homes or migrate to greener pastures.

HDB = concrete tent (since its not owned but leased)

S’pore a concrete tent city?

#134

My nephew was staying at HDB Buangkok 4Room Flat. It was in a isolated area true to it’s name……. kena Buang-kok……………so he decided to migrate to Adelaide and owns 2 landed properties. Wow wee! he is so happy ever after!

#134

My nephew was staying at HDB Buangkok 4Room Flat. It was in an isolated area true to it’s name……. kena Buang-kok……………so he decided to migrate to Adelaide and owns 2 landed properties. Wow wee! he is so happy ever after!

134) mice is nice

“when most people do not have a real choice, they are exploited….”

Mr Mah Bao Shan, said again, HDB are affordable. For his salary OF COURSE!

He said today, “Buyers can choose not to give Cash-over-value”. What country is he living in? It sure isn’t the Singapore I know!

WHAT THE…?!

post #137 on September 14th, 2009 10.15 pm

“Mr Mah Bao Shan, said again, HDB are affordable. For his salary OF COURSE!”

also, maybe he meant that as long as the leaseholders (not owners) are not chased out of their home = affordable?

of course, it does not matter how the leaseholders survive day to day, or the quality of life they have as long as they pay up on time?

“He said today, “Buyers can choose not to give Cash-over-value”. What country is he living in? It sure isn’t the Singapore I know!”

saw it on Channel 5 news, what he said is true. but he doesn’t complete his sentence “…. the sellers can also choose not to sell to such people!!”…

///112) Hwang Soo Jin on September 6th, 2009 7.59 pm
Hello T,
what land cost of hdb flat, they are built on states land and most are acquired at low cost ( low compensation when govt re-locate the initial resident ).

Private condo land is leased by bidding, ///

HSJ, the days where land were compulsorily acquired at low rates were long gone. Now, they are close to market rates, though still below market. The point is, there is a cost, and the land can be put up for bidding to the private developers.

I pointed out that the author has completely ignore the land cost. Surely, you are not saying that land cost (however low you want HDB to impute), should not be included?

Low cost doesn’t mean no cost.

with no hard numbers to study, they can just up the selling price of new estates as they deem fit.

if land cost so much that means govt not doing enough (or doing it right?) in urban planning to ensure that their envisioned population target of 6.5 million should earn more than enough to have (not own) at least a HDB roof over their heads as a bare minimal requirement for social security.

when the demand outstrip the supply, naturally even those who can barely afford will have to pay a king’s ransom. as the saying goes by “hook by crook”, HDB is fast becoming a concrete kampong at cut throat price, if not already…

SH and all. My neighbour works in the construction industry, building condo and previously his companies tendered for HBD flats.
The cost of each flat from the 4 rooms to 5 rooms even at today’s raw material prices is only between 60 to 90K, not counting the land cost which is from the Land Authority. If a construction company tenders for a HDB project for 1000 flats at 300 to 400 million, you do the sums, its not difficult. This is only the cost to the HDB which also includes the carpark, walkways, a “small” playground. We pay 15 to 19 K for a lift upgrading and extra room, the cost is not more than 2 to 3K! The government is making more than the private developers of the condos. He laughs at us but what to do. Well if we are smart enough ,we all should know what to do, so he says!!!

141) ACACIA on September 16th, 2009 12.47 am

The government is making more than the private developers of the condos. He laughs at us but what to do. Well if we are smart enough ,we all should know what to do, so he says!!! ………..Agree 100%

It cost only $7600 for a 3 room at Toa Payoh in t he early 80’s … Imagine the meaning of affordability in the year 2009… We should know how to put a stop to these money minded stat. board people if we are smart, We should really know what to do!!!

Let’s get to basic and practical……Build more 2Room apartments as .we are living in land scarse Singapore. I’ve visited Europe and Australia………cost of average 2 bed room unit can be expensive and yet many Caucasians choose to live with it……….affordability and value for money.

I am delighted to know that some developers here are finally in tune of the changing times and will launch 2Rooms apartment.

I’m proud of my 2+1 Condo unit.

Had read all the posting. Basically, one sentence……. left hand pass to right hand.

I have been lookng for a ‘3 rms HDB Flat’ for 2 years, and yet still searching…. First is the bank loan, but i got it fixed up 2 months ago (approval and ready with the 5% cash). Now is the COV…. Wonder what’s next??

From what i have concluded, these will not just change over night. They will only care when you got too much $$ or no $$ to eat (all these is the begining sign of people that will stage a demostration/protest). Just look at how the media is been controlled. No freedom of world news, but we are lucky that we still have internet now.

All these will come to an end in the near future if we stand up for our right. We are the one who will make it happen….

YOU GOT A CHOICE

FT are just F Quiters or unwanted in their own country. Therefore, majorities are here to seek opportunity or course there are small number example like Hyflux boss which we need. So stop using FT or rather called them foreign skilled or umskill worker.

The obvious answer is to BUILD MORE NEW FLATS. This HDB saga is HDB-made. We need a different leadership – one that see beyond money-making from the people. Going round rationalising their policies, is really uniquely Singapore indeed! I mean, I can give you 10 good reasons why smoking is good (help you to ‘relax’ etc., etc.), similarly, 10 good reasons why it’s not… that’s ‘rationalising’. HDB is one that is trying very hard on this act at the moment instead of tackling the issue head-on. In a nutshell, this is ‘HDB win- people loss’ facts are (i) the people did not really BUY a HDB flat, only leasing (rent) it for 99 years, and (ii) HDB is not operating in a free market structure. The reasonings have already been clearly pointed out by more than 1,000 Singaporeans that signed a petition http://www.thepetitionsite.com/petition/397223444.

As a SINGLE above 35 myself, I should like to urge the government to stop HDB discriminating policy against SINGLE Singaporeans by allowing singles to purchase a new HDB flats…. ya, the answer is BUILD MORE TRULY AFFORDABLE NEW HDB FLATS.

The govt looks for quick solutions: Singaporeans are used as batteries. Once they run out, and instead of investing time in charging them up, they are simply thrown away and new ones bought. ( From China and India – very cheap ones that won’t last )

While the govt recently started launching new flats, they are ignoring the fact that singles are still being priced out from home ownership.
If this attitude persists, Singles should demand that the govt in future promises to supply cheap, subsidized rental flats to Singles should such policy back-fire.

I don’t see why “land cost” is factored in. These are government housing built on state land that has been set aside for housing the population. We are tax paying citizens and these are LEASED flats. No matter what they say, HDB still owns the flats, not us.

This “land cost” is nothing more than the government transfering money from one pocket to another.

This “land cost” is nothing more than the government ripping all those extra billions out of the citizens pockets.

IF 85 PERCENT of Singaporeans live in PAP government’s HDB PUBLIC HOUSING flats for the Working Class Singaporeans – WHERE DOES the “HEAVILY-SUBSIDIZED” Monies come from? The other 15%???

And will it be too much to put 50 PERCENT to the “HEAVILY” H Word since it should mean more then what Singaporeans actually pays for their HDB flats for that word to make any meaningful sense at all