Gayle Goh’s article from BlogTV:
Singaporeans have often been accused of not having a heart for home. The identity angst of our young nation-state has manifested itself variously in aspects such as high emigration statistics and cultural dialogue. “Singapore you are not my country”, poet and activist Alfian Sa’at once wrote. “Singapore you are not a country at all.”
A recent paradox has emerged in the bitter debate over immigration policy that challenges this impassioned shout. On the one hand, Singaporeans profess to feel alienated and second-class in their homeland – Singaporean, perhaps, but cynical as to what this identity actually offers or entails; on the other hand, they retreat into terms such as ‘us’ and ‘them, ‘ordinary citizens’ and ‘foreign trash’ – terms which I have seen thrown around Internet forums with alarming frequency.
This polarizing rhetoric of difference between ‘us’ and ‘them’ demonstrates that our alienation has developed into an identity of its own; that some long-buried territorial instinct to defend our home, long suspected of being absent in our kind, has given us the energy to say that we have some manner of definitive rights to its riches. Yet this very rhetoric damages our sense of self. It amplifies our emotions of disenfranchisement and reinforces our insecurity in our identity as Singaporeans. To and fro, these two phenomena – alienation and xenophobia – feed each other.
If nothing else, the dynamic of interaction between them demonstrates that when it suits us, Singapore is a country. When it concerns our rice bowl and our future, Singapore becomes our country.
Gayle Goh is currently reading Literature at Cambridge University.
Read the full article on BlogTV.
Gayle’s I Speak blog.
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Here’s Part 2 :
The median income in 1990 was $2296 (the median income today is not near 8k, or 3.5 times more). This is a simplistic illustrate but the point is the salary had not kept pace. More people had to pay longer and higher amounts (I am not advocating income rise without business conditions met).
While an asset purchase of significant material value is an individual decision, both the media and policy makers have not painted a complete picture in terms of consequences from the start. A major driver of housing prices came from the valuations of flats sold through HDB, and increases went on. There was hardly any advocation on financial prudence among policy makers then.
No caution from them to purchase within individual means (like today) when frowns were raised from time to time. No caution on adverse consequences should the economy turn sour, with job losses, even when the financial outlay of a purchase was high. None.
I am not pushing the entire issue to policy makers because apartment buyers ought to exercise judgment of purchase. However, I can tell you that not every citizen is capable of making decisions on finances of such magnitude (a blind spot).
So the argument that housing purchase brings ownerships (?), increases asset values (?) and raised living standards (?) propagated by policy makers for years, was unbalanced without discussions on the caveats.
In those days, media headlines carried the message of ‘home ownerships’ without explaining the risks on equity i.e. the longer and higher amounts are taken for payments in economic cycles, the higher the financial risks it carries. E.g. This was borne out when the recession came in 1990s. We had folks no longer able to serve mortgages even for apartments which were valued below median prices. A case is a case too high. Either that, or the pain level to keep up with payments were too high. There are other facets contributing to low TFRs, but one can no longer ignore the painful liabilities (in their ‘balance sheets’) contributed by housing pricing. What theforgottongeneration mentioned about demographics and GDP is true, and you may want to examine those facts.
I hope you are aware that not everyone in this forum is trying to shut you off, though their language may not reveal so.
Notwithstanding Gayle’s understandable non-commitment to further participate, here are some numbers for “calibration” of foreign content. The report is dated late 2007, but the data are for 2005. However, the trends in the report show about 0.5-2% increase of the foreign-born population for every DECADE, so maybe we can add 1% max for 2009-2010 indicative.
Total foreign-born population
UK = 9.7%
OEDC average = 11.2% (for 2004)
US = 12.9% (12.5% for 2008)
Canada = 19.1%
Australia = 23.4%
Switzerland = 23.8%
Austria = 13.5%
Sweden = 12.4%
Ireland = 11%
***Singapore = 34% (for 2008)***
Appreciate anyone could further add, correct, comment. Preferably pls restrict to only developed countries for comparison. Maybe Japan would be good since they have horrible TRF (but also high GDP), like us!
@103) kf on September 26th, 2009 10.36 am
@104) kf on September 26th, 2009 10.39 am
Wow!!! Say hold your horse, ok. The plate is already FULL! Also the bird may have already flown. Ha, ha…
Just a dig. Yes the affordability of HDB flats is in the limelight now and it is known that median income have not kept up with prices. Note that we also talk about median income PER HOUSEHOLD now.
#101 Hi Gayle, if the heading was “Integration and the Identity Paradox” it
would not have generated so much debate.
The angst of TOC heading stimulates and drive our adrenaline to defend our
sense of belonging and patriotism.
104) theforgottongeneration on September 26th, 2009 11.47 am,
Donaldson said it’s public interest, and can put something in wat….:-). I’m sure some of the discussions here will be re-raised again even if the bird has flown, right :) The problems we had were only wished away, not gone away. Yes, median income per household is the other measure. Again, the measures are simplified.
How to comment on foreigners’ ratio…..when you keep getting arguments from policy makers that are hard to understand :-)
Singaporeans are nice people.
However, the current immigration rules are unfair to them.
Therefore, they are right to voice opposition.
This writer has no idea what is going on.
I understand the concerns of many Singaporeans of taking in too many foreigners. Have we asked ourselves are their concerns genuine and what makes them anti-immigrations? Was their concerns based on experiences and not entirely fears of competitions? Do you experience discriminations of Singaporean in employment by companies where the managers are foreigners. I have way back in 1987. Do you agree that a normal human behaviours would feel more comfortable recruiting their own kinds? Do you know of company when there is a change to a foreign manager, he sack all the Singaporeans and replace it with their own nationality right now and not 1987. Do you think that the employment field is level for the Singaporean male who have to serve National Service while the foreign male do not have? Do you agree that the foreign male of the same age as Singaporean have advantage of working experience relevant to their employment? As a boss, would you take someone with experience or one without experience in this competitive economic market? Have you experience living on a small NS allowance while having to save for your higher education? Have you been told you are too old at 50 years after giving almost 3 years(include waiting time for call up) for NS? As a father saving for teenage children tertiary educations and finding yourself out of a job, how do you feel after spending years saving up for a university education yourself and finding you are betrayed by the trustees of this nation. Why? The foreigners took away your jobs not because you are not qualify or experience but because of your age (this do not apply to those trustees who made the policies). Do you agree that having seen their parents affected by influx of foreigners that it would affect their children too? Do you agree that if the job is not physically demanding, an executive, technical and professional workers can performance better with the right training to fill the gaps are missing for the new jobs? Do you agree that retraining these people to a totally new job without related experience is more difficult and a waste of years of accummulated experience. If you agree with me, who is to be blame? Not those Singaporean who are against immigration but those highly paid incompetence selfish trustees who did not care about fellow Singaporeans.
Unless such concerns are not only addressed but rectified, it would be natural for Singaporeans to be against new immigrant. The long term damage would be emigration of first class Singaporean and replace with 2nd class foreigners. How come you may wonder? Because first class Singaporeans would find little difficulty to emigrate. The younger generation having seen such disadvantages would not have any guilt to move on to other countries.
@111) WT on September 26th, 2009 5.08 pm
Yes, the age thingy is another sore issue in our labor mgt policies. Imagine everyone agree that S’pore’s only resources is its people, yet after 35+ a person with vast experience can find difficult in staying employed. Briefly, one issue is the abundant supply of alternate cheaper labor for the employers — i.e. employers are spoilt for choice. Another is that employers prefer more vulnerable employees so that it is easy to control them. Lastly, of course, the lack of effective worker unions that really fight for basic rights and conditions (e.g. we as a first world country don’t even have min. wage laws). Imagine a Ph.D now a taxi driver. Such waste of resources, whether it is home-grown or imported! Only if it is a Ph.D with NS/reservist experience, then it is a double blow!
But I leave it to other more passionate/qualified bloggers to take up on this topic. (1-2 names comes to mind). Alamak, SO MANY issues facing the man-on-the-street. Really, WHAT THE HELL IS OUR MINISTERS & SCHOLARS DOING??
With due respect to people like Gayle herein, the experience again shows we citizens better look at other alternatives for answers to our issues. Pressing such people is a waste of time; you have correctly emphasize the ill in the overall system.
@113) theforgottongeneration on September 26th, 2009 6.37 pm
Forgot….. add “Misguided” (as in the Stop-at-2 policy) to list.
yo gayle, can respon respon to #1 or not?
u nebber respond wan is it?
In response to Gayle @88 in case you are still following this:
Thanks for clarifying the background of this article. If I understood you correctly you are saying there is a difference between the readers of Blogtv and TOC. This is intriguing to me because I thought these sites, including ST, p65 & other local sites are all intended for Singapore public readership unless you are referring specifically to ‘academic’ Singapore readers. Nevertheless if academics have no connection to reality, I really don’t see the point of academia. Perhaps I am wrong.
It seems you were being thrown into the deep end by Blogtv (ref to the topic not to mention the short notice). Now I understood you a little more however I would like to feedback to you that when I read your article, it came across as a message with distinct political intent esp in dealing with the ‘us’ v ‘them’. You said you had you “been approached to write about the -immigration- issue, (you) may have declined” but to me your opening 3 paragraphs were indicative of addressing ‘immigration issues’. I can only blame it on my lack of academia perhaps.
You said “if this article had remained on Blogtv solely, it would never have generated so much critique.” I am not sure if Blogtv blocks the ‘negative’ critique or that there is a lack of ‘academic’ readers or simply absence of critique. We can never tell unless site administrator is totally transparent – like good young Andrew?
Please do not take me wrongly, like TS Lee @97, you are to be crongratulated with your acheivements at such young age, even being invited to write for important sites. By the way, is it only PSC scholars they are interested? The reason I ask this is, I see many good writers in the commentary including ‘thegorgottengeneration’ and would be good to read their article proper. When I say ‘good’, I mean they will write stuff that the masses can RELATE to.
I can appreciate you will be very busy with returning to the UK. Take care and best wishes in your studies. Don’t forget to have fun too – go punting when the sun is out.
@Agent008: In truth, I wasn’t thinking about the TOC readership as my target audience because I never wrote this article for the TOC. In fact, I was never asked if TOC could even publish it. I would have preferred to be asked, but I don’t hold this against Andrew because everything in the article is my honest opinion, and I am never ashamed of that. I was given very short notice by the Blogtv team that they wanted the article, and I wrote it in the space of a few hours after having received their request. I was writing from the perspective of my interest in identity politics and social psychology, and I concentrated on ‘integration’ rather than ‘immigration’ because that was the specific theme of the week for Blogtv.
Had I thought more carefully about where this article would have turned up, I would have written in shorter, simpler sentences that were to-the-point. I would have crunched the numbers and thrown in a whole bunch of qualifiers. And had I been approached to write about the -immigration- issue, I may have declined, because I know that an A in A’Level Economics and reading The Lexus and the Olive Tree do not qualify me in any way to pretend to understand the numbers and issues to a sufficient extent as to shoot my mouth off about it. I appear to have been drawn into a raging hornet’s nest which it was never my intention to stir. If this article had remained on Blogtv solely, it would never have generated so much critique.
@leesjuanpat I agree that the headline that TOC came up with probably put people in an angry frame of mind before they even read my article. This episode is an interesting case study in journalism.
@Agent008 I agree that there are some excellent commentators in this thread who should write for BlogTV. Of course they aren’t just interested in PSC scholars (to my knowledge I’m first & only); they are always on the lookout for new contributors.
If anyone is interested in writing for them, either on this issue of integration, or on more general topics, feel free to send me your e-mail addresses and I can feedback to the producers. I’m at gaylegoh@gmail.com. I’m not sure about their anonymity policy but I do know you’re allowed to post under a pseudonym.
When I return to Cambridge, I will make it a point to read through the constructive comments and ideas posted in this thread, and think through the topic more carefully.
@Ger Ger #114, since you asked me to address #1, I will do so briefly. I do respond to some comments but as you can see there are too many for me to address all of them :)
The main question that poster #1 asked was, why we should accept new immigrants if we are concerned about our future. I should clarify that I meant more along the lines of new citizens; people who have taken up Singaporean citizenship and are here to stay on a more permanent basis than the transient workers (again, I didn’t write the headline of this article). Because we can expect these people to stay for decades, and probably their children etc, I feel it’s important to ensure that in the future we can continue to enjoy the security that is so precious to Singapore. Mutual distrust and rejection of citizens with different ethnic/national histories have led to high crime rates, riots and in the worst case civil wars and genocide in many societies. I fear that if we don’t take steps to integrate our society now, the Singapore of tomorrow will lose the peace we have that is so unique in the world today. Hope that answers your curiosity :)
You want to attract mainland Chinese workers who can speak English? If they could speak English, they would advance quite well, thank you, in their own country. No need to come to Singapore.
I once had a Sri Lankan maid working in our home in Dubai. She spoke a fair amount of English to get by and told me she wanted to improve her English and could I help her. I asked her why. She said: With good English, a person can conquer the world.
She had minimum education but she believed that with good English, the world would be her oyster.
So friends, to expect foreign workers to come here and be able to speak reasonably good English is really asking for too much.
What is the solution? I don’t know — the government does not seem to know, but we all know that that these foreign workers are making quite a lot of us Singaporeans very unhappy.
Hi Gayle,
Still you did not answer the question; we are on wholly different frequencies here. Whereas you are concerned with the assimiliation of new immigrants, a lot of us are questioning the immigration policy itself. With that on our mind, I really don’t think a lot of us give a damn whether the new immigrants are sleeping well at night. In fact, some of might be tempted to view the new immigrants as the main problem itself, especially when they start writing to the press to criticize the locals. The MSM seems to be playing its part enthusiastically.
You cautioned that “mutual distrust and rejection of citizens with different ethnic/national histories have led to high crime rates, riots and in the worst case civil wars and genocide in many societies.”, but I am sure you are aware that in many of the above instances, it is the deliberate policies of the people in power, or trying to hang on to power, that result in innocent people on both side of the divide being caught up in unfortunate circumstances beyond their control. You have confused the cause if you think that the sole problem is because both sides refuse to play nice neighbours.
You seem to think that the massive import of new immigrants is a done deal, something we are powerless to stop or reverse. Thus you repeatedly argue that the only thing we can do now is to “open our minds and accept new immigrants”. I beg to differ, that’s why we are voicing our concerns now. We need to stop it before it is really too late.
As long as our concerns are not answered or addressed, and things continue to get worse, I am afraid strife is what you are going to get.
Hi all,
Pls leave Gayle alone already, since obviously this issue is way above her head. This is not a single person fault, it is not the foreigners’ fault, it is a system issue as many here have clearly identified.
We have 34% foreign-born population. This seems unusually high compared with other developed countries — see my post #105. I think other countries are capping it at 10-20% for good reason(s); logically, if 1 or 2 out of 10 neighbours are foreigners, then it is easier to accept/integrate on a mutual basis. 3, 4 or 5 would be really pushing the social tolerance. I would also think that if THEY see that they have a sufficient mass, then they can afford NOT to integrate with the locals but to form their own enclaves.
The other countries may perhaps also prefer (or mandated) to develop their local talents first, rather than “act smart” and take the easy path of importing.
My take is 1.7m foreigners have been rammed down our throats and Singaporeans are expected to just accept it; the $10m is just a sweetener, which I doubt true-blue Singaporeans will see much of to their benefit or pocket. Unfortunately, if Singapore now starts to eject them en masse, then our garhem will have no face with the international community. Imagine if we reduce the foreign content to say, 20%, that would mean having to get rid of 500,000 – 600,000 of those currently here — surely an international outcry. Alamak/Aiyoyo/CMBCCB, what can we do? That $10m has better be a miracle worker….
No freebies for newbies.
NS for one–NS for all—including Gayle.
Or else what is there to defend.
Maybe Jet Li should be the first to volunteer
Most FT will avoid it like the plague and do 2nd migration when their son reach 18–after they have milked the system dry.
The super rich are here for tax purposes–most with daughters
All ASEAN/China scholars, boy or girl, that are using tax-payers funds when they arrive at age14 must do 5 years of full-time NS.
THEN maybe we can become a nation.
As new citizens or PRs are not going to serve national service, I am going to recognize new citizen as foreigners or ” undetermined citizen going to be” ; their second generation can always immigrate before they reach 18 years of age.
The top is not addressing the problem of foreigners that affects the life of every Singaporeans are used to. Great influx of foreigners has blurred on the issue of owner versus visitor. They flood in in their mass and bring in very own living habits and expect the owner to accept it as they feel that they are as important as the citizen. They give us their piece of their mind by writing in to local media to criticize the local for not allowing them to have more rights …
Unhappiness is not generated because of just one particular issue. It is built up. It accumulates. “Foreigner” this ITEM will not be so disgusting if the locals are not actually worse off as compared to previously.
I will open up my hand widely and welcome these foreigners if and only if my interest is being looked after properly. Will the government look into this? It is not in my interest to serve a country that does not look after their citizen and I am most certainly sure that most people will agree with me that my commitment to the country should not be taken for granted.
In my view, nothing is free in Singapore. Even the “free 10 education” is not free. I have already paid it all back by serving NS that pay me only $500 per month. You tell me, as compared to a foreigner that graduated at the same time as me (yr 2003) is earning approximately 3 times and much and plus the industry experience s/he is going to gain, what is left for me? Do you think I have already paid all the 10 years of my education?
After I ORDed, the first company that I worked for previously, not because of there is a leak in the salary data, I will never know that in paid me the same salary as a foreigner. What a shock!! How can you explain this? Is my commitment not being recognized? Let not talk about this issue aside.
My neighbor is a family from China. They have since converted to Singaporean. Do you know they are about my age and have started a family? Do you know what I am doing now? I am still studying!! Basically, I have deferred my education by 2.5 years. Do you know what common people like me is experiencing? Given that there will be many young foreigners out there filling up the place which should be mine, it is still uncertain if I can get a job upon graduation. Do you understand the frustration?
I read economics too. Economic theories tell me that the government, with all the resources available is not doing a favor for the citizen. I know the government is increasing the population to boast GDP!! This in turn create job. I know that. However, inflation is a good friend of GDP growth!!! What happen during this good time? Singapore is flooded in with young low skill workers. I think you should agree there will be people being squeeze out of job due to this change. Do you ever know who are they?? My parent!! Don’t ever blame my parent to be incapable or lazy because this is about their ability. They live in the era where good education is not possible. Now I am telling you that GDP growth does not necessary benefit commoner like me, my parent as well as my friends who I know.
I am sure this time is bread and butter issue which is not adequately addressed by the government is “growing bigger”. There is always a good alternative to growing the population via mass immigration. I would rather the government spend the 10 million which is going to spend on the new immigrant as well as the millions of dollars lost in the financial market to be directed to the baby bonus. Spend the money in the correct place and enjoy the benefits in 20 year time. This is definitely better than recruiting foreigners/ ”new citizen” as no one is certain if they will stay here for long. New citizens are foreigners in nature. Sorry, I am not going to agree with you. I do not want to be taken advantage of by them and of course not neither I want my kids to.
Lastly, don’t you think issue on “foreigner” and “new citizen” are related issue?
There are much more to write about but I do not have the benefit of time to do so. I will stop here.
theforgottengeneration,
I think the public cannot help the outcry especially on this foreigner issue, it is the hottest potato at the moment. Poor Gayle happens to be the writer (seemingly ignorant about writing something so sensitive) and any comment about this is unfortunately going to reflect upon her because of her article.
It was good of you to provide the figures for immigration rate in developed countries. If possible, can somebody please also provide the population density in the those countries compare to Spore. What is the number of people per square mile? I think it would be something ridiculously not in Spore’s favour because there was no breathing space when I was last at Orchard Rd MRT station. In case anyone says London’s Leciester Square is similar, the locals there have their countrysides to retreat to but not in Spore.
tiredman #119, said very well.
All NSmen ( or Singaporeans who have done national service) should be given FREE health-care and hospitalisation up to ward B2 by the government.. They should be able to buy HDB flats at 50% discount.
NSmen have been exploited by the PAP government to make Singapore a very safe place so that the very, very rich foreigners who park their money in Singapore, and also ministers, bankers, property tycoons, etc. have benefited greatly from the sacrifices of the NSmen.
(read about Singapore top 40 richest peopl. Quite a few of them are Malaysians) http://biz.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2009/9/11/business/4693112&sec=business )
As LKY and his son LHL had said, nothing in this world is free. So the PAP government who did not pay market rate to NSmen must now compensate NSmen through FREE health care and subsidised housing. These are what the NSmen deserve.
Come armed forces day, the $5 lunch treat is grossly insufficient for the sacrifices the NSmen have made.
The PAP government should do the right thing, compensate in kind; otherwise all this talk of being grateful to NSmen is just hot-air.
Hi fellow Singaporean,
“Open our minds & accept new immigrants, if we’re concerned about our future”
We welcome you ! Please buy up the price of our HDB bird cage to a million !
It is a done deal that these peoples will flood the market and take away your uncle and aunty jobs……. There is nothing much we poor Singaporean can do about it.
If you are a toilet cleaner and they retrench you, just go to MOM and get at permit to become a beggar at orchard road! It’s a better paying job ! (You must do it fast; otherwise the next in flood of immigrants will apply the beggar permit ahead of you!) . As for the well educated Singaporean, please help the uncles and aunties by making life tough for these immigrants who take away people rice bowl.
More importantly, open our minds & be prepare to move out of Singapore just before the sky come clashing down! Sell your HDB at sky high prices to these immigrants and if possible exchange your Pink ICs with them, buy a plot of land and become a famer in their country. Who know rice may cost $10 /kg in the future ! I guess life is happier than the bees like life here in Singapore! At least you won’t end up working until 62 and still need to complete with the immigrants for jobs like toilets cleaners!
Let them get suck dry by the PAP PTE LTD , service their HDB bird cage like a slave and complete for toilet cleaner jobs with the new wave of immigrants from maybe some 4th world countries like Oran Otan. Maybe by then we are enjoying life in some distant countries with land and resources that Mother World have given to its peoples for a friction of the price of the HDB bird cage !
The world is full of possibilities !
@123) tiredman on September 27th, 2009 1.13 am
I read pieces like from #123) tiredman and inevidently compares with what our PSC scholar(s) has to offer. I then really wonder who has actually studied literature, is our brand of English not good enough or even better, are public funds going to the people that can really make a difference? A 5-minute piece by an average Joe speaks volume, while a 2-hour speech during the National Day Rally says absolutely NOTHING. So sad for Singapore.
Singaporeans are like a traditional Mixed Chap Chai dish losing its flavour to foreign foods more and more, even Burger also has rendang type nowadays. We have a chief cook who has years of experience and he is truly trying his best to improve the dish for us so that it will taste better and at par with international standard; there is no doubt about it. In his pursuit for excellence, he added many new ingredients like different kinds of oriental spices, ang mo chai thao, french fries and plenty of nuts too. But Singaporeans cant accept the change,we find it hard to swallow. Adding more new ingredients has “diluted the dish” and “changed the taste”. Maybe our chef could have added excess ingredients,wrong ingredients and too much salt.
Poor chef, your dish is either too spicy, too saltish, too sweet…. neither Hokien style, Teochew nor Indian. Uncle, are you a Peranakan by the way? Since there are so many complaints that this dish is not tasty; why not stop cooking this dish for a while and analyse the causes to fine tune it if necessary.
Gayle is telling us that since the new recipe of Mixed Chap Chai is already in the frying pan, we should now try and cook it well to blend all the ingredients. This way, we can together help create a wonderful Singapore dish. Local or foreign ingredients, they all need a good blending now since they are already mixed together and cannot be separated anymore.
Ahdoi.. sorry I am very lor so, I got to slow down my fire a little now. Dont over fry, must be just nice, gum gum and it will taste bettter. Aiyoh.. someone added too much salt already lah, let me add some sugar to neutralise it then. Ah, now it blends well. Hey, you need to know that if I am short of fish to add into my Chap Chai, I got to substitute with prawns ok? “Boh he hey ah ho”, dont blame me otherwise not tasty!
OK, enjoy your meal now. Have a good day. Keep cooking and blend well, bo pien.
@ Artemov #1 wrote: “Can Galye Goh explain why if we’re concerned about our future, we should open our minds & accept new immigrants?”
My take: It is industrialization that has given the West the advancement that the East is lacking for the past 200 years. Industrialization brought forth tremendous increased in productivity. And it is through the system of the market economy — which weeds out inefficiencies and generates innovations — that people (as consumers) get to enjoy better and newer good goods and services at a lower cost (subject to how the individual chooses to spend). So if you are concern with increasing the standard of living, then you should open your minds to immigrants whom can make the economy stronger.
This, of course, puts pressure on people to upgrade so that they can command a higher paying job. What you should be concerned with is change, rather than immigrants per se.
See my comments to “Pursuing your dreams” at the P65 blog.
@ Artemov #1 wrote: “Can Galye Goh explain why if we‚Äôre concerned about our future, we should open our minds & accept new immigrants?”
My take: It is industrialization that has given the West the advancement that the East is lacking for the past 200 years. Industrialization brought forth tremendous increased in productivity. And it is through the system of the market economy — which weeds out inefficiencies and generates innovations — that people (as consumers) get to enjoy better and newer good goods and services at a lower cost (subject to how the individual chooses to spend). So if you are concern with increasing the standard of living, then you should open your minds to immigrants whom can make the economy stronger.
This, of course, puts pressure on people to upgrade so that they can command a higher paying job. What you should be concerned with is change, rather than immigrants per se.
See my comments to “Pursuing your dreams” at the P65 blog.
tiredman #119 is correct in bringing the national service factor in Singapore citizenship.
NSmen have sacrificed their time and energy in keeping Singapore safe so that the very, very rich foreigners can park their money here (safely from the tax man).
Its been reported that the top 40 billionaires just got richer.
http://biz.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2009/9/11/business/4693112&sec=business
NSmen should be entitled to (a) FREE health care and hospitalisation (up to ward B2) in government hospitals (b) a discount of at last 50% of HDB flats.
As LKY had said, there is no such thing as a free lunch. The PAP government should compensate the MSmen (both active, reservists or retired) with the proposed above.
Come SAF day, all this talk by ministers about contributions of NSmen and a $8 lunch treat sounds very hollow.
Currently NSmen = slave labour for 2 years.
” I feel it’s important to ensure that in the future we can continue to enjoy the security that is so precious to Singapore. Mutual distrust and rejection of citizens with different ethnic/national histories have led to high crime rates, riots and in the worst case civil wars and genocide in many societies. I fear that if we don’t take steps to integrate our society now, the Singapore of tomorrow will lose the peace we have that is so unique in the world today”, unquote.
The above Quote is very true and likely to happen in SIN if the Measures to make consumptions to shore up the Economic Developments and make-up the shortfall in the Racial Mix of the population by attracting more foreigners to settle here. Neither will rhetorics and empty sweet talks such as those repeatedly made by Minister Lim Swee Say help in solving the problems generated by influx of foreigners. Worse is people like Lim Swee Say and his ilks provide FALSE COMFORTS, FALSE AND MISLEADING GUIDANCES.
The problems generated by the Open Door Policy for Immigration cannot be wish away with sweet, compromising and self serving exhortations. As i have commented above, the Elites will be the Lots that will migrate in the near future if not now. Maybe one day, the Leaders will just claim that since they are ‘not wanted’, they are willing to give SIN back to the Citizenry and they ‘escape’ away from SIN to enjoy a life of luxuries for generations cos most of them are multi-millionaires.
Singapore does not have landmass nor infinite capacity for economic advances and there is no doubt our neighbouring countries are improving by leaps and bounds in their political, social, knowledge and infrastructural developments. Malaysias’ PM Najib is considered by a tertiary educational institution in the West to be one such Ruler that he has administered and administering his country(Malaysia) very well in this current global economic downturn and has made the Institution to adopt a ‘Najib Formula’ Studies.
The Fear of riot, chaos and sufferings are not without basis, it is real, so real that most citizens, including the very lay ones, are worried and alarmed. So please stop the comforting rhetorics and address the concerns sincerely and seriously, please do not prepare for abdication for ‘just in case’ we(Leaders) failed, which seems to be my impression now.
patriot
125) SingaShadow on September 27th, 2009 8.01 am,
Please don’t be offended. I can tell you that in this forum, related sites in here and elsewhere, the foreigners/ new ctitizens issue have been extensively discussed. While it’s true that some comments may be personal/ brief/ off tangent, there is a rich collection of arguments with strength from multiple parties already. In good faith, I recommend you to examine them.
In contrast we only hear broad sweeping from policy makers, and I have yet to see a compelling and complete story from them that brought us to this state. Meantime,
(a) your argument on East and West needs to be revised substantially because we are talking about Singapore, not synonymous with everything the East in general is associated with.
(b) your assumptions and arguments on bringing in foreigners to raise competitiveness are already considered as surface discussions compared to the depth that many have painstakingly cross-examined.
The PAP’s real reason for the mass import of foreigners are obvious to mel
1. raise GDP, which is pegged to their salaries.
2. incubate a new breed of loyal new citizens, who are grateful to the PAP for giving them a way out of their 3rd world village huts. These will replace the sinkees who are fed up with the PAP and eventually immigrate.
3. lower the quality of life of the average sinkee. when a person worries only for his survival and basic needs, he’ll have no time to think of higher-order needs likw human rights.
Why are guys paying attention to a girl who has no real world experience? Whose idea about life is garnered from story books and not from experience? Are you that insecure?
@130) Truthisagreatoffendor on September 27th, 2009 2.38 pm
Maybe it’s because there are now (surprise, surprise) 1.7m foreigners here but no minister has see it fit to touch on the issue? You think 1.7m just appears overnight? It has to a deliberate policy over a good numbers of years which was keep low-key till now. Such an important and sensitive topic to Singaporeans and how many seconds of air-time did LHL gave it during the 2-hrs National Day Rally? Again, deliberate or oversight?
It only shows the sentiment of the ground swell that the first target that appears with any resemblance of an official explanation, in this case unfortunate (and really sotong) Gayle, pops her head and can you blame the shooting spree that ensued?
Are you that naive?
Anyway, now that we know the foreign content of some other DEVELOPED countries, like see who is the next hero to convince us on the “calibration” process. Maybe you can incite one of the well-paid ministers to engage us. That will be better than a “…girl who has no real world experience”, right?
For those keeping tabs, I just learnt that Canada has reversed it falling fertility rate. Their foreign content? Let’s recall ….. 19.1% (2005). Again, Singapore = 34% (2008).
@132) kf on September 27th, 2009 11.12 am
kf, you’re ever so kind. Had a look at the P65 entry …. must inform you (or some others herein) that if you guys ever put your comments there, it would be like emperor status! Please don’t be offended.
Again, looks like the little bird has flown for good. Best of luck to her and really hope she take the experience positively. Hell, I’m starting to think positive!!
I’m amused and aggravated by the number of people who continue to miss what I’m saying.
Maybe if I put it this way:
If we slow down the pace of immigration, it will probably aid integration.
I am thus in favour of reducing the number of foreigners in Singapore & slowing down the intake of immigrants.
My concern is assimilation with the ultimate view of security.
This will probably warrant tighter border controls together with a concerted integration policy.
I hope my stance is a bit clearer now!
@91) theonlinecitizen on September 25th, 2009 9.23 pm
“….I think BlogTV might be upset that your post has generated more comments and discussion on TOC than on their site. Ha.. …”
TOC,
Still no hits on that site. I dont understand since that site is affiliated to MediaCorp. Did you guys purposely chose a lembak-lembak site as comparison to make TOC look good, or what?! Maybe, in fairness, you should choose someone nearer your own size! (Joking, lah) I’m also surprised why Gayle would choose to post on that site; maybe she didn’t have a choice.
Anyway, I noticed a certain comment: #123) tiredman on September 27th, 2009 1.13 am, has been deleted. Though I understand you have absolute prerogative in moderation, I do recall that comment was relevant and in fact was rather inspiring (to my thinking), no personal attacks in it, fair comment, etc.
I reference it in #126;
#130) JW on September 27th, 2009 8.59 am also reference it.
Could you pls review that? Thks.
Singaporeans are not grumbling about the pace of immigration, and nothing to do with reducing or increasing the number of foreigners, but why they need to compete with the foreigners whereby locals can do the jobs as they do, but being forced to take a pay cut in order to secure a job so as to put butter & bread on the dinning table, to pay for their children education, to pay the housing loan, health care, etc. Unlike Brunei who has merely a population of 300,000, and 2/3 of their population are foreigners. Singaporeans are not narrow minded, our stand is; foreigners are always welcome if there is a market demand which indeed can create jobs for locals, and vice versa.
To summarize: yes, we want and can grow and share the pies with foreigners, but don’t reduce my portion, please.
Agreed with theforgottongeneration.
More like BoreTV than BlogTV. Just like TV, turn to that channel, and after few glance, turn off the channel and never visit it again because it look so boring on first impression.
Did someone ever tell BoreTV not to have white text on black background ? Someone up there must have taken Michael Jackson seriously when he sang that “It Doesn’t Matter If You’re Black Or White”. There must a reason why our mini-stars are known as Men-In-White not Men-In-Black. Did someone not heed their master’s wisdom ?
“White-on-white looks pristine and pure. But does it also equal dull and drab, and possibly schoolboyish too?”
“Other MPs saw the white-on-white issue as a red flag and charged at it, defending the uniform. Almost to a man, they said that it symbolised the Party’s roots in upholding purity of purpose and its members’ simple needs. “It represents honesty and integrity,” said Dr Tan Cheng Bock. “Clean and corruption-free,” said Mr Peh Chin Hua.”
From http://www.pap.org.sg/partyhistory.php
Many of you are making unnecessary attack on a blogger who is innocently writing on Intergration for another blog as requested.She did not titled it and was not even inform that the topic will be brought to this “special site”.However she is kind enough to interact with us .
TOC “is kind”to have asked not to turn this into a Gayle Goh bashing thread .But…
I believe there is a wayang here.
For those of you who had vent your anger on her just because you are unhappy with certain policies which is not implemented by her,I feel very shameful.
I believed that there are many other encouraging comments that may not appear here.
Many have difficulty understanding the subject.Next time use a simple example to tell them,like:
A family had a bachelor son who has difficulty finding a wife to produce babies and to help washing dishes.(Singapore having difficulty finding talent and workers for certain job)
The father get him a foreign bride(Singapore get FT and FW).
Now the sibbling ,instead of welcoming the new sister in law (welcoming the new immigrants)who is here to help to produce the next generation (Talents)for the family ,wash their dishes , clothes and other chores which actually many of them hate to do(Singaporean shun certain jobs),complain and complain that she is here to take away their job even they dislike washing and cannot help the bachelor brother to produce babies for the family…
They do not welcome her with open arm.
Tell them this simple story .Tell them that is his brother.Will they still complain?Will they accept their new sister in law?Only then they will not make noise.
Rotten woods are only good for the furnaces.
Gayle Goh ,you had been kind to spent your precious time with us.I write just to let you know that I am with you…always
It seems like one of Gayle’s initial arguments for the “necessarY” immigration — that it leads to us “enjoying” a high GDP per capita based on PPP — is, as usual, only a half-truth.
A useful reference was found at: http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATASTATISTICS/Resources/GNIPC.pdf
Using PPP, Singapore GDP per capita is ranked 10th in the world! This appears great since US is ranked 11th! But US has a foreign content of only 12.5% while S’pore is at 34% (per my early post #105 which is from another report). So, I think it is pretty clear that we are injecting labor (aka foreign since local manpower is limited) just to boost the GDP. Again, everything points to a fixation on GDP.
We now need the TFRs of other countries for further comparisons. Pls help anyone.
My point is that couldn’t we have been satisfied with being ranked lower on PPP by having lesser foreigners (thus minimizing the “us” vs “them” issue) and allowing more women to stay at home (thus likely increasing TFR) than having to work (mainly to supplement the high cost of living)?
E.g.:
UK: they just turned their declining birth rate; ranks 28 based on PPP, and foreign content = 9.7%.
Canada: also reported turning fertility rate, ranks 27 on PPP, foreign content = 19.1%.
Sweden: good fertility rate, PPP ranking = 22, foreign content = 12.4%.
Can’t we be happy at something like such combination levels? Is having a high GDP the sole goal for the future of Singapore?
I admit I don’t have time to analyse/compare more countries but I hope someone would provide further insight, including disproving this line of thought.
Assuming GDP per capita is really increased with the help of foreigners, will every Sporean, lesser mortal or not, able bodied or disabled, young or old, scholar or not, get to share the pie? So before we even talk about whether we want to increase GDP, citizens should be comfortable and contented with the present wealth distribution. The problem is we have never been the wiser as far as the country’s financial matter is concerned, on top of this, all we hear is life is getting harder.
Assuming GDP per capita really benefits citizens, is immigration the best way to do it as the price to pay is very high (eg overcrowding & crimes)? Has the govt exhausted all means of giving us a good life? Boosting GDP through immigrants should be the last resort. I won’t mind it if our life depends on it, thats we will starve otherwise. Is there no room to improve on our education system anymore, no help possible for local entrepreneurs, no way of keeping local talents etc et?
Assuming immigration is the way to go, is Spore doing it the sensible way, by allowing any T, D & H to enter?
To me, the identity crisis is never about patriotism, culture or social habits. It is about about fairness, about citizen rights and about effects on Sporeans livelihood.
135) Gayle Goh on September 27th, 2009 8.35 pm,
Partly yes! The answer is to reduce the number of foreigners in Singapore, and make it official.
Unfortunately policy makers had created a blunder, without adequate calibre and anticipation on issues in the first place.
Accountability is a major aspect that policy makers avoid, and it’s the same aspect that brings out responsible decision making in private organisations.
Given the damage done, concerns generated, without strong accountability on practical solutions for anyone affected, and weak/ non even-handed arguments listed by policy makers, I am not sold to the idea of slowing the intake of immigrants at this point.
I am not trying to pour cold water since you’ll be joining civil service. If this kind of performance happens in private sector, the person in charge will be thrown out, even before his performance evaluation schedule arrives.
Singashadow,
>>”It is industrialization that has given the West the advancement that the East is lacking for the past 200 years. Industrialization brought forth tremendous increased in productivity.”<>” And it is through the system of the market economy — which weeds out inefficiencies and generates innovations — that people (as consumers) get to enjoy better and newer good goods and services at a lower cost (subject to how the individual chooses to spend).”<>”So if you are concern with increasing the standard of living, then you should open your minds to immigrants whom can make the economy stronger.”<<
- Its been proving worse and worse, how can people trust this statement anymore?
- There is this assumption that stronger economy equals better standard of living for the masses. Unless the masses are informed of the figures and get to share the pie, stronger economy means nothing. Unless there is transparency with the finances, there is no point telling people stronger economy is good for them. Besides, the price to pay for the open door policy exceeds the benefits of stronger economy.
"This, of course, puts pressure on people to upgrade so that they can command a higher paying job."
- Go tell the cleaner ah mms and ah pehs to upgrade, and when they have done so, will they get paid more as supervisors by hawkers?
- Or tell production workers to upgrade and they can all become engineers.
Singashadow,
“It is industrialization that has given the West the advancement that the East is lacking for the past 200 years. Industrialization brought forth tremendous increased in productivity.”
- In today’s global village, it is intellectual property and knowledge of industrialisation that will be key to the advancement of economies. For these, you will need scientists, designers, entrepreneurs, engineers, creative directors and the like, what we call ‘talents’ which Spore does not and will not provide opportunities to nurture and therefore will always lack. To make matters worse, the half baked or shall I say raw immigration policy ignores this issue. It has no rules as to who can come.
” And it is through the system of the market economy — which weeds out inefficiencies and generates innovations — that people (as consumers) get to enjoy better and newer good goods and services at a lower cost (subject to how the individual chooses to spend).”
- Hellooo, is there any sign of goods and services getting better and cheaper in Spore over the last 2 years? If not, someone must be pocketing them all!
“So if you are concern with increasing the standard of living, then you should open your minds to immigrants whom can make the economy stronger.”
- Its been proving worse and worse, how can people trust this statement anymore?
- There is this assumption that stronger economy equals better standard of living for the masses. Unless the masses are informed of the figures and get to share the pie, stronger economy means nothing. Unless there is transparency with the finances, there is no point telling people stronger economy is good for them. Besides, the price to pay for the open door policy exceeds the benefits of stronger economy.
“This, of course, puts pressure on people to upgrade so that they can command a higher paying job.”
- Go tell the cleaner ah mms and ah pehs to upgrade, and when they have done so, will they get paid more as supervisors by hawkers?
- Or tell production workers to upgrade and they can all become engineers.
@144) Carol on September 28th, 2009 2.13 am
Yes Carol, you are one step ahead. Did ask that question to Gayle at #100 nos.2, but I have since retraced my direction …. I thought it would be worth investigating if our basic life-balance equation is correct in the first place — GDP, family/TRF, talents, manpower, foreign intake, etc. Because I am sure we will be fed some more B***S*** figures soon.
Once we are clear on the underlying basics for the large intake of foreigners, then we should definitely compare wealth distribution with other countries. Off hand this may already be disadvantaged since these developed countries have min. wage laws, which we don’t. But of course you are entirely correct to work from your angle first, so much the better in fact. For one, you will find that the pay of the top guy in the most powerful country can’t hold a candle to that of a tiny Red Dot!
@145) kf on September 28th, 2009 2.29 am
Clearly the pace of integration has slowed — we see construction workers hanging around & some even protesting at MOM for jobs. The “calibration” is done, threshold found/achieved — suspected to be due more because of the recession than deliberate policy. Question is: what to do with the 1.7m “problem” that is ALREADY here? Hence the garhem’s emphasis on integration, not immigration. Smart of them, eh?
TOC,
Can you somehow attract some top policy makers to participate? I mean Gayle is like only a trip wire (whether she is knowingly aware or not). With your demonstrated level of moderation and the PR proficiency of our policy makers, I am sure they can be assured a fair discussion. Alternatively, they can post at BlogTV as an intermediary. Wha’ da U say?
144) theforgottongeneration on September 28th, 2009 8.28 am,
Yes I know what you mean. Using the shot-peening method to bring in the masses already, and then start talking about slowing down the immigration rates, and integration. This is the reason I agreed partly with what Gayle said on reduction.
By the way, I saw P65, it’s a bit ‘quiet and tranquil’ there for now! :-)
“Every developed nation has had to accept immigration at least to some extent as part and parcel of survival in today’s world. ”
How true is the above statement? What and where is the Logic of the Statement?
The trustees of Singapore – you may be very comfortable in your positions having top pay and aiming for the 24 months bonus. The world financial system got into present situation because of greed and short-sighted decision for the immediate gain. Is the reward system based on resolving short term situations without considering long term effect? Looking into what is been introduced recently, many more professionals will be affected. Some would migrate while others would do so for their children futures – why put their sons at a disadvantage. Any responsible parents would want the best for their sons. Would Singapore still be a nation if those who are here is just for the financial gains? Was the Vietnam war and Korean war won because of superior weapons? Would your soldiers fight for the nation because Singapore is not theirs? Would they put their hearts to build this nation if they think of leaving if there is an opportunity? Would their parents stop them if they love them? In the history of China the people built temples to worship officials who sacrifices for the people. When they have troubles, they go to the temples to seek their help – even when they are dead! They are remembered and respected until today.
I am not against immigrants per se. I am against trustees of this nation having no regards to the livelihood of those who are affected. Has the 24 months bonus cloud their judgement as it does to the banks in United States? Is there any preparation of the people for any change or after policy implementation? Do you agree that sudden changes are very disruptive and damaging? Even sudden changes cause undue stress and wear to a machinery. Do you think if the poeple greivances are met with right policies in place and people are prepared, many would accept it? Do you agreed that no system that is not prepared would fail? Do you agree that the less prepared it is, the greater the damage? Is the trustees performaqnce evaluated and rewarded for short term gain? Do you agree that damage control taken as early as possible would reduce it’s severity?
The truth has no fear and it cannot be hidden. It will unleash it’s vengeance if it is not respected.
Hi Gayle,
If you truthfully are trying to serve the nation, I suggest you join the opposition and stand for election. Why the opposition you may ask? There are many constraints imposed by the PAP and you have to bark according to the tune. Unless you are obedient and find favour, you got no chance to be fielded for election. There are many things that I want to share with you but cannot do so for it would draw repercussions if revealed here. If you are interest, I can do so in private. If not for my family member who are still dependents, I would have do it. For those who have the talent and the heart for the nation, serve the nation by standing on the opposition tickets to effect changes that are good for this nation. Get rid of the opportunists that are undermining the nation.
I accept them and forgive then for making SG a living mess…now they can go.
I saw a flat viewing yesterday. PR paid 40k COV and I was oust. I guess I have to wait some years, then maybe I can finally start a family, or maybe my genetic line will die with me. I’m sure the PAP will find enough foreigners to replace locals when we all die out.
If I live in ulu ulu areas, flats are cheaper but no subsidy of living near parents. I am back to facing the same problem.
Thanks a lot Foreign Action Party and according lackeys!
Will the new immigrants, foreign talents appreciate Singapore for what they can have here?
Or are we jus a stepping stone for them?
I had come across various examples like:
1) 1 foreign neighbour who had previously given up our PR status to return to his country comes back to work here again after 2 yrs.
I asked him: ‘ Why did u give up PR status 2 ys ago?’
He replied : ‘ PR status here no use one lah’
In my heart, I was thinking… since Singapore is so bad, then why did you come back to work here and compete for jobs which are already scarce for our own
citizens?
On another note … why could these people come and go so easily? Since they have ‘given up’ on us, why should they be allowed to turn back and make use of us?
2) Foreign talent working in Singapore who already got PR status but have no intention to stay here and contribute to our nation…
I asked him: ‘Will you be staying in Singapore for long?
He replied: ‘No, I will be going to Australia in a few years time’
i asked him: ‘Then why did you apply for our PR status?’
He replied: ‘Oh… With Singapore passport, it will be easier for me to move on to other countries…. Singapore is just a stepping stone for many of us… Our intention is to get the passport and then move on to other countries… It will be difficult to do that with our own nationality’s passports as there are a lot of restrictions…’
I will just quote these 2 examples…
You all draw your own conclusions…
I feel very sad and angry upon hearing these from them as I feel that we are being used by them.
Yet, our precious PR status are given out so much freely nowsadays and our rights and most basic needs are being very much compromised.
I feel very very dissapointed that we are being treated in such a way when we are the loyal citizens here.
According to NPS, the percentage of foreign-born population in Singapore in 2008 is 35%. So the 34% I mentioned various times here is in therefore an error (maybe I rounded down and they up). Apologies to any stats gurus.
To lynn on September 29th, 2009 1.22 am:
Re: “With Singapore passport, it will be easier for me to move on to other countries…”
This information comes from an ex-Singaporean I know now working at management level in the immigration ministry of a Western country, who was transferred in March to a department where she comes more directly into contact with newcomers to that country.
What she told me is that in the six months that she has been at this new department, the only ‘Singapore citizens’ she has encountered in her work so far were all born in China.
This is the explanation:
1. The three largest source countries for immigration to all Western countries are China, India and the Phillipines; this has basically remained unchanged for many years now. As such, there are incredibly long lineups in the “application for immigration” queues in the embassies of every Western country in Beijing, New Delhi and Manila. It would take many, many years to process applications for emigration to those countries.
2. Singapore offers a shortcut, and this is already known by word of mouth among people from those countries who plan to migrate to the West. By sharp contrast, the lineups for immigration to the West in Singapore are short – applications for immigration to those countries by Singaporeans and ‘Singaporeans’ (ie. the new citizens) are quick by comparison.
3. Thus if the people from China, India, and the Phillipines actually have their sights for immigration on other (Western), they can actually cut short the process for themselves by first obtaining PR or SC because their applications are processed as if they are Singaporeans/PRs by those countries’ embassies in Singapore.
Yet, do I blame those foreigners for doing this? Not in the least; they are actually acting very rationally. This is really a testimony to Singapore’s unattractiveness as an immigration destination, particularly for those migrants are more mobile as well. Come to think of it, Singaporeans don’t think differently, do they?
And the PAP government already knows all of this. Yet they persist.
In all of this, Singapore citizenship has been greatly cheapened by the PAP government because it is being offerred to all on cheap sale.