hello workminister
do you realLEE do your homework @ all?
the posb have been doin flexi hours for so many donkeys years with the counterstaff shared by 2 team..one worked mornin, the other worked after lunch
most of this frontlines staff are housewives who can spent quality time with their youn kid and also made them useful housewives
do we want desparate housewives in singapoor?
do you want to chair leekuanyew on this issue as well?

Sadly, I think some *ahem* people work in the interest of the employer and not for the interest of the employee, which is really one-sided

but who can blame them? that’s the easiest way to attract org ain’t it?

i just dont get this million dollar sinister to tell us such issue. u have better thing to suggest and look into your damn serious problem of overflow immigrants.

it is common sense and is part of evolution in every stages of industry as far as manpower is concerned, it is also have been going on for years…..

is he just graduated or still dreaming?

Gan Kim Yong is from a very wealthy family….so don’t expect any empathy from him.

Now lots of us are jobless.
He will be prosecuted one day by printing so many work permits.

maybe Mr Gan KY should explain the why not’s…

I still can’t figure out why I dun like the look of his face. Miangcha can’t be trusted kind of face.

We could look at this in two ways, either we say that he isn’t taking our welfare into account, or that he’s taking the long-term consequences into account.

businesses can move anywhere in this day and age, to force flexi-work laws on them at this stage of the recession may convince them that Singapore might actually not be worth being based in and choose instead to move elsewhere with laws that are more convenient for them. It does sound worrying, I admit, but if businesses don’t believe in flexi-work arrangements, it’s similar as telling an unrepentant child to be good. They aren’t obliged to stay on and follow our rules if it doesn’t suit them, so it doesn’t sound logical to implement laws that might come back to “haunt” us, so to speak.

It’s not just about the people, if we can’t take the economy into consideration but instead demand for methods that might place us in a bad position, would it not be worse for us all in the long run?

What is tripartite? It is the tool of the government ministers in the NTUC. Imagine Lim swee say as SG in NTUC and minister without pants-on in PMO office. He just blows his trumpet and is he really having the workers interest at heart.
.
Gan kim yong is not much different being born with a silver spoon in his mouth is like LHL, will never understand the poor workers plight and quality family hours and time. Flexi-hour should be legistrated for the benefit of our small family where the maids become the nanny. Most families lose the cohesion of togetherness due to shift and long work hours just to earn enough for the family comfort at the expense of family warm and love.

Sigh this is amazing.

I refer to the article “Flexi-work law? No need” (ST 28 Aug).!

I disagree with Manpower Minister Mr Gan Kim Yong that there is no need to implement legislation to reinforce the flexi-work arrangements to promote work life balance

Do you know in China there are stipulated amount of hour per month for workers under Labor Law which is enforced.
Above and beyond that the firm has to pay them overtime pay which is compulsory.

Sigh.

An appreciative thanks to Gilbert Goh for penning this article.

I appreciate efforts in voicing up for the employees of singapore. I am very touched.

There is no denying singapore is one of the Most Pro Business country in the world IF NOT THE MOST pro biz.

I strongly suspect it is the Most.

Recently, a company was hiring tens of singaporeans and PRs.

It required employees to sign a multi-months (more than 2.5) contract to stay with the company and it is effective right on the 1st day. That means without really experiencing what the job is actually like and having to commit to this contract. Breaking this contract requires paying a penalty by a certain factor of the salary ranging from $900 to a bit more.

I wonder has this got to do with receiving the credits from the scheme? Is it only after 3 months is the employer get to receive the payout?

If an employee is paid $900 a month, in 3 months he is paid $2700.
How much would the employer be paid in 3 months?

My concern is a low pay job still requiring people to commit by way of contract-with-penalty for > 2.5 months. This technically denies such an employee the chance to land other better paying jobs should it arise and employees will not really know how well they suit the job until they experience it. Why no 1 day ‘cooling period’ for employee to decide before enforcement of the contract? if the employee finds himself unsuitable for the job after 1 day, instead of breaking the contract and paying the penalty ,he could just not be paid that 1 day salary?

Does what i say not make any sense or totally without merit?

How to support flexi-hours when LimSweeSay says we need to INCREASE our productivity by NOT increasing salary and doing MORE work?

I think the TOC article is written based purely on the title of the ST article alone, without even looking into the contents. It’s quoting the article completely out of context, and provides a flawed and biased view to people who read the TOC article without reading the ST article.

The TOC article raises some very good points and concerns regarding the work-life balance in Singapore. The ST article does not disagree with these points. In fact, if you read the FULL article in the newspapers (the online one is simply an abridged version), you would realize that MOM agrees with these points. Both TOC and MOM agree that there should be work-life balance and flexible working hours.

I think the only difference in opinion is whether or not LAWS are needed to regulate this. Out of the entire TOC article, it is only at the end that the need for laws is addressed, and there are no suggestions on what kind of laws are needed, and whether or not they are practical.

The views expressed here shows people do have diverse views on the issue.

But readers here form only a handful of the entire electorate (those entitled to vote).

There is no Referendum that i know and experienced that is actually conducted to get a feel of the ground in a more exact manner. Correct me if I wrong.

As a litmus test, I open this question to all (Viswa included),

1. WHO has the official statistics based on the entire electorate about the level of support for the gonmin? I even accept +/- 5% tolerance for errors.

2. Which national issue or decision was made with reference to the result of a Referendum as in a public Poll based on inviting the entire electorate where public announcement is made to invite them? Do not be mistaken. I do not mean letting the public decide. I mean a decision that is made based on consultative approach to the extent that the entire electorate’s opinion is received officially and shown to the people. The decision can be left to the men in charge. But both the results should be shown to the public.

3. Why is it that we do not hear much about how the youths think about national issues like the Losses and the Reserves and transparency? Who knows officially , accurately what is their views and comments ? One way to find out is public invitation to take a poll. Any poll based on selected individuals and small fraction of the populace is not convincing nor intellectually impressive. The country is small, the size of a city only. With 1st world infrastucture and technology readily available at our finger tips, why is this not done?

4. Has our youths Questioned ?

above are questions only. Feel free to answer and enlighten.

May there be light.

[...] here to see the original:rnManpower minister is wrong, we do need flexi-work laws | The … Share and [...]

I think is important to let more people see this website inorder to create awareness to the problems that S’pore is facing. Talk or email as many as possible to our friends, relatives and even strangers. Do now before is too late because the election is coming.

12)

MOM, the government and even PAP agree that work life balance is necessary in Singapore but we know too well that when left to their own devices, employers will find ways to avoid pro-employee measures at the work place.

I do agree that we have many well-intentioned rules and measures in Singapore but because we dare not offend the employers many of our labour chapters remain in name sake.

It is as if to say that we all agree work life balance rules are there but if employers want to do otherwise it is ok.

white collar workers easily work beyond 60 hours a week these days especially fresh grads.

Well, there comes a time when a man and his family must sit down and decide if this is really where they want to be.

16) Gilbert Goh on September 1st, 2009 8.12 pm

Oh yes, I agree that something must be done to “force” employers to follow the rules. Implementing laws is one way, that’s true. Unfortunately, the enforcement of that law is not easy either. Look at the local vs foreign worker quota implemented some time ago.

Even after significant attempts and efforts at cracking down on errant employers, a significant number of companies still flout such rules. What is probably worse is that we have companies that have found “legal” ways to circumvent these rules, which by law, puts them out of the reach of MOM.

I’m a firm believer that if you want to do something, do it effectively. One way I might suggest is the creation of a “work-life balance” mentality among Singaporeans via education. That’s already being done to some extent by the govt. I think the efforts are still at the infant stages, and we still have some way to go on this.

The good news is that such a “work-life balance” mentality is gaining ground among the young. My lawyer friends tell me that when looking for a firm to join, their considerations have gone beyond the pay. They’re now looking at the firms which provide a healthier (and more sane) working environment, rather than the best paycheques.

Yes, we certainly have a long way to go on this, and I believe that TOC’s continual efforts at educating the public in various fields is commendable, and is consistent with the existing govt educational approach. Well done TOC! :)

This morning, while taking the MRT,
I see singapore residents their faces certainly did not show ‘HAPPY’.
I wonder why?

I hope someone can interview tourists and foreigners and expats here about what they see on the MRT. Do they feel that singapore residents are ‘HAPPY’?

Work-Life-Balance?

Quality of Life?

15) Yang on September 1st, 2009 7.33 pm
“I think is important to let more people see this website inorder to create awareness to the problems that S’pore is facing. Talk or email …. ”

I got a small suggestion.
How about give prizes to youths for them to give comments here?
prizes like PSP, Playstation and all the current material goods youths like to own?
Conduct a lucky draw.
Also offer youths with the best comments a top prize.
so, a few categories of prizes.
So, prizes for not just both pro establishment also. As long as they have read and analysed and compared MSM and Alternative Media views and digested them.

Use MLM style: refer your friends scheme. Get rewarded.
Many are looking for jobs after graduation.
This can be enticing to them.

Ooops, puah kang liao. I leaked this to publich domain.

17) Gilbert Goh on September 1st, 2009 8.12 pm

I was thinking that the government is stuck between ensuring that the businesses remain in Singapore, and creating opportunities for the population to strike a balance between work and their personal lives. We can’t not have these businesses pack up and disappear overseas, but neither can we accept employers forcing employees to do too much. So it doesn’t sound as if they are willing to close one eye, but because there aren’t many alternatives available besides convincing employees that it is the best way forward. Willing participants remain the best to work with in the long-run. I doubt that flexi-work is only a “pro-employee [measure]“, the employers stand to gain as well. And it does seem that employers are beginning to take notice and changing their minds, as shown by the response to the WoW! Fund.

21) Orlando Moon on September 1st, 2009 11.11 pm

while I feel as if I’m going off-point when this is about the flexi-work arrangements, I would like to note that monetary incentives simply caters to greed, and would simply encourage our society to focus more on the material benefits when it comes to making decisions. This doesn’t quite work well when we have an ageing population, does it?

just a thought, I’m classified under “youth”, I came here willingly, will you please give me a PSP?

@22) Louisa on September 1st, 2009 11.43 pm

“….I was thinking that the government is stuck between ensuring that the businesses remain in Singapore, and creating opportunities for the population to strike a balance between work and their personal lives….”

Louisa is being too kind here. Sure everyone wish the MNCs can remain in S’pore and nobody would say juggling for a balance is an easy formula. But the steady decline in our fertility rate over the past 20-30 years shows that the govt is NOT interested in striving for a balance. It is business or nothing. Hence there is no min. wage rules, and it is no surprise that flexi-work laws are poo-poo. Schemes like baby bonus are just for show — if it works out, their take the credits; if not, who cares? Thus the TFR has now slipped to a desperate 1.28.

But they already had a card in hand for the declining workforce — simply import manpower. With this approach, one can even start from scratch in determining wage levels since the imported “material” is usually from countries of lower cost of living. Hence, it will never be in their interest to have ANY wage laws.

We could have move away from the equation by nurturing home-grown industries/sectors — then the employers, being Singaporeans & likely family people themselves, would best understand our work balance situation. Leave it to the foreign MNCs and they are not here for charity, you know.

But where is this support for “Made-in-S’pore” branding? All we see are bits and pieces of several millions to SMEs and A*Star. Domestic injection of capital for new industries should be in the tens of BILLIONS, but we seem pretty short of cash after allocation to TH/GIC. LOL

As usual, theory only, how to put up as a Law?

>> 23) theforgottengeneration

i sort of disagree with the point on MNCs vs homegrown industries.

From what i know, MNCs do give quite gd working conditions in general. More welfare and fringe benefits. If anything, ang-moh company will bring their ang-moh work culture, which is generally better.

MNC’s Work-life balance? It depends on industry.

i probably am more pessimistic about homegrown companies will be better because they are run by singaporeans. Such nationalistic logic don’t really work when business people are talking dollar and cents. If they do, they will hire locals and support local jobs.

nevertheless, i agree that we need to support local companies for diversification sake. I’m not sure if you are aware of the multiple finance schemes, seed money, angel investing and venture capital things in Singapore. But from an NUS report, it seems money for SMEs is not the bottleneck in the growing of local enterprises. but of course, if you have a different opinion based on ur experience, feel free to share!

19) XiiAoGeNgEnX, 22) Lousina

I agree with both of you… and to add on to what you say..

In general, from a global persepective, there are 6 billion people out there.
Obviously there are more people than jobs in the world. Since supply of pple outstrip jobs, employers obviously have the upper hand. And in situations where they can just move, governments have little control over them but to butter up to them.

Of course, that is true only to a certain extent. Governments do have some cards against companies. e.g. MiddleEast. companies want to get the resources, so they are more incline to play by govt rules. China. 1 billion market. companies can’t easily ignore this market.

But for Singapore, it’s different. We do not have much cards to play except that we are pro-business, low taxes, gd infrastructure. Our lack of intrincit attractiveness (due to small size) leads to a need to make up by our actions- pro-business.

And say, even if we make rules mandatory, enforcement is difficult. As Gilbert Goh points out, if workers are working above 44 hours and not paid OT etc. (which is against the Employment Act), yet workers themselves do not complain. how is anyone ever going to check on these infringements?

its a difficult situation akin to people getting robbe, but victims themselves do not report. Can the police go round checking who has been robbed?

Dear Readers,

Does anyone really know
Can an employee directly join NTUC union?

Y/N ?

#22,

While Youths are smarter in many ways than the older generations,
they are still Apathetic because

1. Apathy is caused partly by lack of info. Lack of info could be because of they are UNAWARE of the Existence of Alternative Views and views different from what is reported in MSM.

2. For every issue there can be different views. These are also truths.
Even if someone disagrees, that is also the truth in itself.

I conclude that Youths are certainly more vocal but vocalness in what aspects?
They can be apathetic to social-political issues if they do not Know the existence of Alternative Views and thinking.

Look at the faces of many youths. They are Oblivious. Many could not even comment on current affairs.

By the way, back to the topic, I disagree with Gan.

I also feel that there should be
min wage law to protect the disadvantaged.

Louisa,
do you know under the current law,

1. can employers pay an employee $300 per month?
2. is $300 per month cpf deductable?

the ‘related posts’ section in this article shows
” 1.Laid off? Don’t worry. 25,000 jobs in the market, says Manpower Minister”

Can someone add up what are all the number of jobs said to be in the market (reported over the last 1 year) and compare with the number of jobless and the size of the population?

I see so many reports about how many jobs are created or in the market.
And I see the unemployment rate is so high?

What is that casino employer still said to be hiring thousands and thousands when that hiring has been going on for more than a year if not longer?

Are singaporeans not talented to fill those jobs?

#8 Louisa,

“…or that he’s taking the long-term consequences into account.”

1. Define Long Term. 100 years can be long term also.

“It does sound worrying, I admit, but if businesses don’t believe in flexi-work arrangements, it’s similar as telling an unrepentant child to be good. They aren’t obliged to stay on and follow our rules if it doesn’t suit them, so it doesn’t sound logical to implement laws that might come back to “haunt” us, so to speak…”

2. Whether you admit or not The Fact Remains,
pro business Alone will not solve the problem.
You are only half right at best.
You did not mention the other half – a solution should be to satisfy BOTH the employers as well as the Employees. This is what I expect from manpower.

If the Employers are happy the employees not happy, that is not so happy.
A Solution that is Happy-Happy is the happy you should focus on.

You have mentioned and explained the Constraint.
You have not mentioned the Solution.

I pitty your thinking.

The “no free lunch” mentality resonnates in our society, from the government to the household. Despite so much studies abt the Nordic countries, we are not willing to implement similar measuresabout family and population substainability. So, forget abt family planning, children etc, do not expect handouts/help. If you have children, encourage them to migrate in future, if not, they are going to suffer the effects of our stupid policies.

28) Orlando Moon

“1. Apathy is caused partly by lack of info. Lack of info could be because of they are UNAWARE of the Existence of Alternative Views and views different from what is reported in MSM.”

Isn’t that counter-intuitive?
Who do you expect to read blogs more.. a 50 year old or a 20 year old?

I don;t think youths are ignorant of the channels they can get alternative views. it’s more of a matter of choice that they want to read/don’t read. After all, there are more ‘interesting’ things online, e.g. facebook, MMPOG, etc.

Don’t worry. He will be torched soon. Is a matter of time. MOM, MND has to bear the jobless Singaporean problems becos of negligent.

#33 RW,

“I don;t think youths are ignorant of the channels they can get alternative views. it’s more of a matter of choice that they want to read/don’t read. After all, there are more ‘interesting’ things online, e.g. facebook, MMPOG, etc. ”

Political issues affect us all, like it or not.
It would be foolish or ignorant if youths show no interest in it. Too many like this is not good. I can understand that not everyone will eventually be interested in political issues that affect their future. The issue here is the number and extent of the problem. This area needs improvement.

Tell me, is there any issue that can NEVER be political?

Choice can be influenced. How can being politically Apathetic be better than not when political issues affect us all? What is the reason they are not interested in current affairs related to politics?

They need to not just rely on MSM for daily dose of news. They need to be exposed to other comments not published by it.

While youths may not be ignorant of channels available it does not mean they are not Apathetic. Without seeing both sides of a coin, how can the youth know the whole picture? Is this healthy?

1. why do youths not question so many issues that need to be questioned?
If you say they do, show me an example that the majority of youths have done this.
You cannot, i am sure.

@25) RW on September 2nd, 2009 1.36 am

“…i sort of disagree with the point on MNCs vs homegrown industries….”

Sure you are entitled to your views but maybe you are talking 10-15 years back. Much have changed since then, at least from the frontline point of view.

I do agree that generally ang-moh Co’s. seemingly have better welfare & benefits. Ask Why. Their work conditions are a reflection of the social development of their home countries. There, they have effective unions that fight for decent work terms. These terms became enshrined in the MNC’s code of conduct or charter, so it is very difficult for them to tweak even for their overseas plants/offices. Here, NTUC is basically a lame duck, and the mentality of local employers reflect the LOCAL employer-employee laws.

Triparitie agreement here? One party say “I screw my people”, one party say “OK” and the last party has no say. This is not the type of local employers I am referring to or wishing for. Sad we have weaned such employer’s mentality over the past 20-30(?) years, again a reflection of the govt policies.

The many, many support schemes for our local “enterpreneurs” is like that of baby bonus for parents — absolutely no accountability on the part of the policy makers. If things turn out well, they take the credit; if poor results, they say: “Can give you this and this, and still you don’t want.” Like the poor CDC’s distribution of funds in this downturn. Ultimately, the mindset is that it WILL BE the citizen’s fault, like the mindset that S’poreans are monkeys and should be grateful if being paid peanuts.

Have you talked to lecturers in our universities? Sure that is quite amount of ad hoc and piecemeal research fundings here & there. But how many went commercial whereby a local industry has sprung up, employing 100’s ot 1000’s? If you can provide a link to the amount of revenue generated by, say, A*Star’s startups, I’m sure it will be educational to everyone. Dollar for dollar, let’s see the results.

So this is our manpower minister? No wonder so many ppl lost their jobs.

@ Orlando Moon

I think I have to reply to.. three/four comments?

28) there’s no shortage of information, it’s out there for us to view and learn from if we youths choose to do so. To say that the lack of information is a reason for our apathy as a whole would be at odds with the fact that youths are extremely connected to the web and its numerous news sources. We aren’t unaware of alternative views, we ourselves attempt to offer alternative views, even if rather naive and selfish at times. Having said, I am going to say that this is based on my experiences with my peers. I could have chosen to believe that everything is perfect in Singapore, even when there are signs that it is not – if there’s a need to step-up efforts to help the less-fortunate, is that not already an indication that there’s something wrong here?

Here’s the bottom line, we are aware of alternative views, it’s easy to take either extreme view, but we choose do to at times – we can bash the government, and we know how to sing praises, but ultimately it means nothing to most of us. We feel that we won’t be affected when we are older. We don’t care because we’re safely cocooned in our homes and need not worry. Apathy is most definitely not a result of not knowing. As you said, it is indeed foolish of us youth to show no interest, but what should is not necessarily what is.

29) could you quote it directly? I’ve been searching for it and I haven’t seen any direct references to the law.

31) I’ve never said that being pro-business is the way to go, but we do have to take into account that our economy is reliant on them, have you any other alternative as to how we are able to retain our share of the global market while still catering the needs of the people? flexi-work itself is a solution that is beneficial to both the employer and the employee, it’s a matter of implementation and how we do so that affects us. My point was that it is better if prove that flexi-work arrangements are not just pro-employee, but also with the potential benefits for the employees. And the approach of convincing companies to adopt it is showing promising results, already more companies are applying to the WoW! Fund, and we can be assured that they will remain committed because these companies have made the choice on their own.

That said, I would like to ask you this question,
do you have a solution?

38)
“My point was that it is better if prove that flexi-work arrangements are not just pro-employee … employers.”

just to correct that statement, for having typed that as ‘employees’ instead of ‘employers’ as intended.

Guys and Gals, singaporeans,

I think IF you continue Not to Speak Up,
this to me is a form of Acceptance.

To 40) hubino smolaris,

You may want to list the avenues for “Speaking Up”. Or you mean Hong Lim Park?

PS: Only through collective effort can our voices be heard. i.e. we need another leader like LKY of the 60s and 70s. – how irony.

To 7) Poon on September 1st, 2009 5.01 pm

“I still can’t figure out why I dun like the look of his face. Miangcha can’t be trusted kind of face. ”

Gan Kim Yong implements the CPF life scheme via the law.

“MANPOWER Minister Gan Kim Yong has assured Singaporeans they will receive a monthly payout from the CPF Life annuity scheme for the rest of their lives, despite a ‘disturbing’ provision in the new law [lack of guarantee on premiums and payouts in the new law]

He gave this pledge yesterday when replying to Madam Halimah Yacob (Jurong GRC) and Madam Ho Geok Choo (West Coast GRC).”

I hope his PLEDGE don’t turn into “ASPIRATION” some years down the road like our national pledge.

A typical all-talk-no-actions MP. There is only one word to describe Singapore MPs talk – hollow.

Hi Readers,

I thought it is apt that I share this with you.

I went for an interview this week.

The interviewer hiring tens of workers, technical job.

The interviewer is an employment agency.

In this crisis and downturn, many are applying for the job.
It pays only $900 or so.

The interview is supplying tens and tens of these workers to a sub-con who is providing service to a large famous computer MNC which got a contract with a ‘very BIG employer’ (i dare not mention its real name).

the interviewer said they even have IT administrators who used to earn 4000 are now only offered max $1200. Think about it, if they deduct CPF , how much left?

For someone earning $12K, CPF is not a large component to deduct. Afterall, it is capped at 4500 or thereabouts. For low wage workers, its hard to have savings after pay and pay life expenses.

I do see many workers are now at the mercy of employers who are offering very low wages. Even a toilet cleaner, I read, earns $1000.

u said :
“there’s no shortage of information, it’s out there for us to view and learn from if we youths choose to do so. To say that the lack of information is a reason for our apathy as a whole would be at odds with the fact that youths are extremely connected to the web and its numerous news sources. ”

my reply :
With due respect, your statement can mislead people in a way – the internet contains all sorts of info. By this, you are right. But that is unfortunately a sweeping statement. Its too general. It does not answer the question. The fact that there is this internet containing all sorts of info does not mean youths would read it. Not reading it could be due to reasons , 1 of which is what i mentioned.

I did said this “Apathy is caused partly by lack of info.”. Again, i have said that youths are not Apathetic in many ways. But this does not mean they are not apathetic to social-politcal issues. By ‘they’ I mean those whom i came across. For example, youths are not interested in many online stuff. Being interested in many online stuff need not mean interested in online social-political blogs. If they rely on MSM only, they would miss the Alternative views on the net even if they use the internet daily and are IT savvy.

So, by ‘lack of info’ I mean they are not getting the info because they do not rely on Alternative View websites. so, it is not because the internet does not contain such info. Its they deny themselves the info. So, they are lacking this info.

When they do not read alternative views on alternative websites, they are likely to miss out on many things leading to being UnAware of many issues. I mean other good and valid views that people have voiced. This is certainly possible.

=========

U said:
” We aren’t unaware of alternative views, we ourselves attempt to offer alternative views,…” and

“Having said, I am going to say that this is based on my experiences with my peers.”

My reply:
My views are based on my personal experience also. I have spoken to too in excess of 100 youths and strangers and the general impression i get is many base mainly on the MSM for news. Anything not covered by it , many are not aware of alternative social-political views / questions and issues.

U said:
“…is that not already an indication that there’s something wrong here?”

my reply:
I would say there is a big football field room for improvement.

U said:
“As you said, it is indeed foolish of us youth to show no interest, but what should is not necessarily what is.”

How do you explain that many all youths I talked to are either :
1. unaware of the issues, either partially or completely and cannot comment much on it or show interest in them or not sure how they might be affected direcly or indirectly?

2. I do not see them at Hong Lim park or anywhere posing the questions if they have any.

My personal experience says there are still many who are not used to reading Alternative views on the net. I am not saying ALL these views are All right or All Perfect. Lets be fair that there are many Alternative view sites that offer good debates and logic.

Its up to the youths and their intellectual ability to rationalise and analyse for themselves. My point is they should read / listen to Alternative views + MSM reporting and then only conclude for themselves.

U said:
“…but ultimately it means nothing to most of us. We feel that we won’t be affected when we are older. We don’t care because we’re safely cocooned in our homes and need not worry.”

My reply:
Can I ask you, being a youth yourself as you said, are you not concerned about Transparency given that you are unapthetic?
Can I also ask you, is national reserve nothing to do with you and your friends?
Being self-proclaimed unapathetic and having access to world wide web of knowledge base, why do you think you youths will certainly be unaffected ?

sincerely,
Orlando Moon

“29) could you quote it directly? I’ve been searching for it and I haven’t seen any direct references to the law.”

Louisa, here was what i said:
“Louisa,
do you know under the current law,

1. can employers pay an employee $300 per month?
2. is $300 per month cpf deductable? ”

I was asking, not saying that it is. Please dun get it wrong.

peace

@43) David on September 2nd, 2009 9.42 pm

Somehow the photo of this guy (Gan) gives me the impression of Squealer of Animal Farm. Maybe cos’ his body mass must be proportional to his minister pay.

@37) loop on September 2nd, 2009 3.41 pm

Yup, that’s S’pore style. See Obama — 8 months into job and hair already turning grey + figure looks leaner.

Now look at our ministers; almost a year into the worst recession and they still look chubby with silk-black hair. They must be on an extremely effective “Healthy Thinking” program/course.

@44) Real story to share on September 2nd, 2009 10.34 pm

…And how much are our ministers earning all this while? No pay cut yet, ah?



35) Orlando Moon

I too, share your concern about the lack of appreciation for political issues among the youth today. And that is a pity, because like you, I think it is important to know the things that are happening around these days.

Since we agree on the observation, perhaps the part where we diverge is on the cause on the state of affairs.

If I am not wrong, you feel that it’s because of they do not know about alternative news- meaning they have intention but no means. If that is the case, the solution is simple- we promote and advertise alternative news.

However, IMO, the problem is deeper than that- and that is they have no interest in the first place. I don’t have stats or anything but from personal observation from friends, they don’t even read ST. More of TNP for EPL news. Of course, it’s a small sample and maybe I am just hanging out with the wrong crowd of people. But if my view is correct, the problem is not about means but intention. Advertising and publicizing will not help. It got to go deeper to get them to have an interest first, to read political news first, regardless of source.

36) theforgottongeneration

hi theforgottongeneration, thanks for your reply. I guess we both agree that MNCs may not be such a bad thing and local companies are the one who are treating employees worse. (?)

On the support schemes, if the question is- whether the govt is supporting local entrep, I guess the answer will be yes- from all the financial schemes they have rolled out.

But are these money producing results? Yes, but my opinion is the returns (input-output ratio) are not fantastic- so I agree with you there. (if you want to know A*Star start-up revenue, just look at A*Star annual report. They have stats there)

So how do we judge the govt performance? I guess it depends on what your opinion of the role of the government is.

1) If they are supposed to provide a conducive support environment for businesses, I guess they have done that to certain extent through funding, etc.

2) But if the role of the govt is to ensure that businesses succeed, that is a tricky proposition. After all, these are privately-run businesses, not GLCs. I dun think the govt tells them what to do, or appoints anyone to their company or run the business for them. Unless you think the govt should start interfering the running of businesses….

Maybe the problem is the govt is giving out too much money and not being prudent in who they are giving money out to. But that will run contrary to your earlier post that government is not supportive of local businesses.

i don’t understand the very person who says S”porean workers are not flexible can say don’t need flexi-work laws.

double talk?

45) Orlando Moon to Louisa #38 on September 2nd, 2009 11.43 pm

Here’s what my classmates say about politics, “We know something’s going on, but we don’t care.” It’s not that the youth are unaware of alternative views – we do, we know there’s more to the pretty flowers we are presented with; but what we choose to do with that knowledge is a different matter. I chose not to take swallow everything just because it’s convenient, I choose to look deeper into the matter, I cannot say my peers do the same. By saying that we need to turn to blogs that offer alternative views, that in your own way, you’re simply dismissing us youth as a group who are unable to think for ourselves. It’s a conscious choice to pretend there’s nothing wrong, it’s not because we are “unaware”, it’s because they don’t care.

You based it on the 100 or so youths you have met, I based it on my daily interactions with my schoolmates and social circle. I am wondering, is it that hard to accept that youths do not care? Just as I don’t care about football, and yet some would think it a crime to feel that way. Take it as arrogance, the belief that the events going on around the youth now won’t affect them later in life.

As I’ve said, just because you think youths should do something, it doesn’t mean that we would. Just because you think I should read up on alternative views, it doesn’t mean that I’ll do it because you think it’s right. Would you take kindly to being told how to live your life if you are content with what you have at the moment? I think not.

You haven’t exactly discussed everything in detail with me, I do believe that your verdict on who you think I am has been rather hasty. I never once said youths would be unaffected, I said this, “We feel that we won’t be affected when we are older.” We ‘feel’ does not mean we won’t be. I was simply trying to explain the perspective of the youths as a whole. Let’s look at it this way, on one hand, you are telling me it’s the choice of the youth to read up on alternative views, on the rather hand, you’re telling me that we must – in order to be “aware” as you put it. Different people have different views, yes I understand that, but even as I am trying to explain the views of youths in general, you assume that I am one of them for knowing what it is like with my peers.

The both of us place different emphasis on the importance of certain things, perhaps it is because of the relatively different experiences we have, that what I feel is acceptable is unacceptable to you. But this does not mean that I will not be concerned about transparency, but conspiracies do not convince me of anything, it simply tells me that whoever does it has no strong evidence to support that point.

My apologies if I misinterpreted your words, because what you said was, “do you know under the current law,” and I took it as if you were trying to tell me something as opposed to asking a question.

Louisa.

50) RW on September 3rd, 2009 2.00 pm
thank you, I’ve been trying to phrase it correctly for quite a while.

@51) RW on September 3rd, 2009 2.02 pm

Hi RW,

We seems to be drifting from the topic of flexi-laws, maybe I am at fault to mention start-ups, etc.

The difference in “work benefits” offered by MNC vs local firms are generally acknowledged. Do you agree that after 40+ years of self-rule, with the options to adopt best-in-class practises from all over the world, Singapore management ethnics as a whole is just not up to par with many developed countries? Do you think our labor policies, like the “walkover” of flexi-work laws discussed herein, have anything to do with this third-world management mentality after 40+ years?

On support schemes. I have the impression that you think that as long as there is money injection, then it shows that the govt is doing something, maybe you think even the right things but not in an efficient way. Flexi-hours came up for discussion because the Baby Bonus scheme is simply a FAILURE. For such issues (and even the start-ups), we are looking at effectiveness, not efficiency. $230 millions given in 2008 for Baby bonus and yet the TFR = 1.28. Duh?!

Throwing money at problems isn’t generally a good practice, at least not in the private sector as I know it. I guess it boils down to ACCOUNTABILITY, something which pro-policy supporters in blogs have carefully avoided in their answers.

Also, do you agree on the possibility that some show of money injection may just be a wayang show? I mean MILLIONs are no doubt “available” for schemes like Baby Bonus, CDC assistance, start-ups, SPUR, etc., but compare with the unconfirmed 300-500 BILLIONS in TH/GIC portfolio. It is reported TH Care donates $1m a year for social-welfare works. It is also reported TH achieved “annualised” returns of 18%. Assuming TH base was say $50 billions, $1m is what, peanuts? If this what you call “assistance”? Of course they would think $1m to monkeys is a big deal.

We can further share views on roles of private sector, GLCs, govt, etc, but I hope you can clear the perceptions above first. Only then I may understand what you meant that I’m contradicting my earlier post.

54) theforgottengeneration

You are probably right, we are drifting away from the topic. but since no one else is reading this anymore, i guess no harm done. ;)

I guess there is some truth in what you say about the state of our management. IMO, it’s about the individual office culture and local companies are still not adopting the best practices.

To be fair to MOM, they have endorsed and encouraged these best practices. The question is- is that enough? Given our local companies are stuck in the ’squeeze everything out of workers’ mentality, maybe mere encouragement is not enough and stronger actions like mandatory laws are needed to force the culture.

It is like the do-not-litter campaign, first they use force (such as corrective work order), then people get it and automatically don’t litter. Probably with laws and enforcement, we can eventually build up gd HR practices and culture.

Of course, there are problems to it too. Apart from the often heard “loss of competitiveness vis-a-vis other economies” and “labor rigidity” argument, there is also the problem of definition and enforcement for the long working hours issue.

My understanding of general practice is bosses do not regulate the number of hour people work, but on the amount of work they do. Meaning bosses do not explicitly ask you to work OT, but give you so much work that it is impossible to complete it w/o OT. In that kind of situation, it is hard to enforce because the workers ‘volunteered’ to do work at home/work late. Maybe govt can regulate the amt of work? But that is probably impractical. I am still looking out if any other countries hold some answer to this. Maybe our discussion may throw up smth eventually.

About the support schemes, I guess the answer depends on what qns is asked.
Is the govt helping (period)? Probably Yes, because of the schemes.
Is the govt helping in an effective way? Probably not, based on the returns of those companies.

I guess the nature of what the govt is doing in this case is something like venture capitalist funds. A group of businesses come to you with their business proposals and you pick the ones you think will ‘win’. Of course, in business, there is no such thing as 100% right- VC usually waste a lot of money and occasionally strike jackpot with one ‘Google’ or one ‘Microsoft’, thus evening out in the process.

But of course, even when we aggregate the returns of all startups on the whole, it is still not on par with the VCs. Probably accountability comes in when we demand that they better start guessing better (and be on par with the VCs).

On the point of TH/GIC, using TH/GIC may not be such a good reference point because they are savings (stock), not revenue (flow). My personal belief (and you may disagree) is we should spend what we earn. If we don’t, we will probably ending up like the US (eventually), owing the whole world money. They are an impt country so China/Japan/MiddleEast LL have to play along. If it was Singapore, we will be devalued like the Thais and Indonesians during AFC.

So yes, the millions spent look small in comparison to the billions in savings. But that is probably not the reference point I will look at. If we look at it against the whole budget, things will probably look better.

@55) RW on September 4th, 2009 1.35 am

RW, since no one else is reading, I guess I shouldn’t be spending much time henceforth. People like me are not paid for thinking thru policies or working thru feedback, you understand? We’re just performing basis CSR by voicing some concerns as citizens.

Your views seem to be on an overview basis, like painting in broad strokes without concern about details or effects. I know where that is coming from & it is your call. But maybe you or your colleagues should step back (and out) and see the ground with opened eyes. This is my own opinion, no offense intended.

1) So just VERY broadly:

“….IMO, it’s about the individual office culture and local companies are still not adopting the best practices.

To be fair to MOM, they have endorsed and encouraged these best practices. The question is- is that enough?….”

Such thinking resounds of the Japs’ stand on the Geneva Convection during WW2. I believe they signed it but didn’t “ratified” it. Subsequently, if the lower levels have a “free” hand or even “guidelines” to do all sorts of things/atrocities, did tne Allies think that the higher Jap Command/system was not at fault? At worst, we are talking at least some moral obligation and not just “endorsing” or “encouraging”. At min., having things like flexi-work law, per this discussion. At best….?

2) About help schemes. I know you have a different perception on accountability, efficiency and “help”. Let’s me ask;

If I see a drowning man, and I just hold out 1 finger as a symbol of “help”, or stupidly throw in a small plank that obviously can’t hold the weight of a person, would you classify these as “help”? Of course under cameras etc… I could even be turned into some hero. You can argue it is also up to the efforts of the drowning man to best use the small plank as his life is at stake! But isn’t help and its effectiveness interrelated? What is “help” if it is of no help? Is our standards so low to pat ourselves with half-helps?

In the private sector, if a manager disbursed $230 millions in a campaign to boost a “product/service” to a market acceptance level of (say) 2.1, but the returns is only 1.28, I know for certain it is bye-bye mgr next year. Now how long has our TFR been sliding, 20-30 years?!!? However, I understand the public sector is very forgiving. Look at the MSK saga.

3) About VCs mentality. Yup, that’s what I think the different depts are doing – they don’t really think, just throw money especially if it is not their money! I can only say a general worth his salt should fight all battles and win them. Sure, he picks some battles (resources are always limited), but what he choose MUST be a winner. Guessing is not an option, especially with the smallness of S’pore, as you have highlighted. Otherwise, like spotting questions in exams — might get it right only 50% of the time, but still expects an “A” in terms of salary…er, exam grading? Wouldn’t someone then logically ask for a more competent general? If give-and-misses are accepted, then why not employ a PFC or even a monkey instead?

So, WHAT DO YOU SEE ….

Remember: speaking good English increases one’s competitiveness! Starting with simple English can certainly help. Do try!

As I have mentioned before, and DPM Teo certainly concurs, speaking good English increases one’s ability to comprehend issues, articulate sound ideas and increase one’s competitiveness in the workplace! Starting with simple English can certainly help. Do try!

Come Together

post #58 on September 5th, 2009 1.15 pm

“Remember: speaking good English increases one’s competitiveness! Starting with simple English can certainly help. Do try!”

tell that to frontline service staff who is not able to speak basic english.

you probably have not hear these service staff asking can you speak chi….

57) theforgottongeneration

nah, no offense taken. Listening to opposite views, especially well-articulated ones, are always a good learning experience.

Just to clarify, I am not working for the govt or any related bodies- (if that is the impression you got). I’m too stupid to be the high-flyer scholar, so only can play play online. ;) Plus, real ones where will post here, their rice bowl & high pay are at stake!

On your points,
2) Your example suggest that the problem is– inadequate help is given. Does that mean (i) too little money given to SMEs, or (ii) some other help is needed other than money? My impression is we have adequate financing. From govt, there are many schemes under SPRING. From incubators, there are orgs like NUS giving seed funding too. Then, there are private investors too. In fact, VCs in Singapore complain there are not enough startups for them to finance. So in terms of financing, I don’t think inadequate is the right problem.

3) If govt is being inefficient with the funding they are giving out, that means they are being too generous with SMEs, helping ‘bad/inefficient’ SMEs as well. Doesn’t that make the government extremely helpful to SMEs? That was what I mean there is a contradiction between ‘govt not helping’ and ‘govt giving money indiscriminately’

Having said that, I agree that their guessing is bad and that has to change. So I guess, we are in agreement there.

For the main topic (I admit I digressed a lot), I guess the question is whether they should go beyond ‘encouraging’ to ‘legislating’ flexi-work laws.

Understandably, there are downsides to it:
(A) Loss of Competitiveness. There is the usual ‘lead to higher costs, companies will pull-out’ song, which everyone knows.

(B) Blunt Instrument. Flexi-work labor laws need to be taken into context of specific industry. For office workers (which most people are biased towards), it may sound great because there is telecommuting. But for service industries, manufacturing (machine operators), how does that work out? My point is we need to look at the jobs itself- some jobs simply require the person to be there, to be considered work. You can’t let workers bring the machine home or close shop and direct customers to home.

Can the law specify all the industries/jobs that are covered or not covered? Probably not, because there are so many industries/jobs out there and they are changing, laws are not a good measure.

So is there any upside?
Not really, since it is found to be generally ineffective. Britain introduced it and that did not help in any way. See BBC article on this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7986101.stm

RW

“Can the law specify all the industries/jobs that are covered or not covered? Probably not, because there are so many industries/jobs out there and they are changing, laws are not a good measure.”

then why not scrap all laws?

there is an upside & downside to everything. yet sometimes however ineffective it may be, it is still rolled out. Baby Bonus (to raise birthrates) & ERP (to regulate traffic flow).

hmmm, let’s scrap ERP!!! :P

RW,

Again, you are entitled to you views. All I can say is that there are different points to looking at accountability — either from a quantitative, qualitative, or end results pt of view. Take MSK escape case:

1) We can pat ourselves for having learned a lesson, or scream for heads for incompetency. I believe the garhem chose the former.

2) We can deploy hundreds of servicemen to ring-fence the area for 3 weeks or GUESS better in the first critical 1-2 hours of escape. I believe the garhem did the former.

3) Did we deploy enough resources to try to recapture him? YES, as shown on the media. Did we find him? NO, but according to your reasoning, the garhem did a fairly good job, no doubt having to spend a vast amount of money in damage control. So, let’s overlook the small detail that MSK was not captured in the process.

4) Did we learned anything from this? YES, cos a new detention center is being built for MSK. Err, unfortunately, M’sia ain’t handling him over to us. But it’s OK, money was spent aka on a brand-new & empty detention center.

5) So, how to you seriously rank this episode from a resources input vs end result point of view? A “C-”? From me, it is definitely a “F+”, the plus being out of consideration for the poor servicemen deployed for 3 weeks in a wild goose chase. Not to mention all the inconvenience at the causeway check points.

So, with a skewed positive reasoning, I’m sure our leaders can easily justify the high pay that they think they are entitled to. LOL.

Primary school kids would tell you that for every action there is an equal opposite reaction.
For every unnecessary policy there are more unnecessary problems.

When you bring foreigners to do the work which ordinary SINGAPOREANS can do (better), the following happens :

1) Artificially suppressed wages at the expense of true local talents. ( If explanation needed, I can fiurther expand on this point)
2) The emergence of ‘cheap’ labour creating an illusion for employers that they are getting better deal through lower wage costs.
3) To add fuel to fire, the Government every ready to suck money out of emloyers’ pockets, gets behind the scene to increase indirect taxes which eventually hit the pockets of all citizens, tearing big holes in the pockets of the lower middle class citizens.
4) Govenment forced to create further illusion of help by giving handouts of ‘peanuts’ occasionally.
5) This leaves about 50% of the population doubting the Government’ss intentions but helpless to do anything about it.
6) The Government ( ruling party), consequently feel the heat during elections, and unashamedly resorts to leegaly approved underhanded tactics to the detriment of the ‘clean image ‘ of Singapore .
….more later……….

A Government which shows even the slightest of impression that it CHEATS is not worthy of even a school kid’s respect.

ITS before our EYES, the only blockage is the helplessness of people at this stage. Understandable .

There is still FOOD on the Table. Even our Dogs Cats PETS AND STRAYS have enuff to eat by the Grace OF GOD, no thanks to the selfish PAP. So people say okay, lets tolerate. ….for now ….

I see many old folks grandpa’s and grandma s digging into Rubbish Bins to collect Boxes and cans when they should be retiring decently. Its ok still can eat 1to2 meal a day nv mind ………tolerance for now……. Wait till when they run out of Tolerance……………. PAP will say Look you still got cans to collect so bow down to we, for we can make lies to sound like truth…………..

But remember PAP what happened to Hitler ……….to Saddam……….and their Croaking Cronies……..and their likes throughout History ………….remember PAP when each of you die you have to give an Account to the Almighty whether you believe it or not and that day is going to be thunderous shock for thee for having pretended to care but in actuality you have shown disdain of the poor, elderly and the Needy ! Your pain would be 100 fold intolerable when you stand NAKED before your Maker and the TRUE LIVING JUDGE !, where there are no Kangaroos to play politics with Justice……………….
BEWARE that Day would come as a LIGHTNING very much unlike the fake one you are wearing as your emblem ! BEWARE!

63) mice is nice

true, many laws are not 100% enforceable.

people follow laws, but laws must also take practical consideration.
flexible working laws can only work for white collar workers who can telecommute. factory workers, service operators- coming up with flexible work arrangements will be difficult since work means being at a certain place at a certain time.

of course, i admit I am not be creative and thinking too hard to make it work. but at first glance, it does not address the concerns of these workers (which make a substantial part of the labor force) and may even backfire on them as they get pay cuts for doing less work.

abt ERP, hahahahaa. I am a mere mortal who squeeze on SBS/SMRT everyday. no offense, but i see it as a ‘rich man’ tax. :)

64) theforgottongeneration

actually I will agree with you on the mas selamat example. :)
doesn’t mean you deploy 1000s of NSFs means you had a good performance.

but i will say there is a slight difference between this scenerio and the SMEs one. in the latter case, govt’s role is to catalyst the entrep into success. Not to form GLCs and be successful.

these entrep are outside the government and they control/run their own business. since they are independent of the govt, the govt can only ‘bring them to the watering point, but can’t force them to drink’. hence, in light of the govt role, we should judge them based on whether they provide a conducive environment.

in mas selemat case, that is their show to run. police/army/gurkas are under their control. so, they have to be responsible for successes and failures.

RW

laws can work if they are tailored to specific industries. just as safety requirements differ from trade to trade.

considering the fact that people work to earn a living at minimal, some to start a family, & for many in time will take care of aging parents. these are social if not national concerns that also have implications that turn purely practical considerations upside down.

because based on practical considerations, men who are required by law to serve NS up to their specified age based on rank, are not any good for company bottomlines.

So far, the government seems to have just been paying lip service to the whole idea of work life balance.

I’m a mother of 2 young children. Having quit my full time job abt 1.5 years ago to spend time with my toddler son, i recently re-applied back to my previous organisation, a government stat board, when a full time vacancy opened up. During the course of the interview, i was just asked abt my childcare arrangement, including the fact that i have put my 2nd child at an infant care center.

The interview panel rather proudly informed me that the organisation had implemented a flexi work hour arrangement where an employee can choose to start work earlier and knock off by 530pm so long as she fulfills the 8.5 daily working hours requirement. i was rather candid with the panel (a stupid mistake as i later discovered) abt needing to fetch my child before the infant care center closes at 7pm and said that the flexi work hour arrangement would work out great for me. My rationale was, better to be upfront and honest. And afterall, i was just saying that i might consider taking up the alternative arrangement if it meant that i would be better able to attend to both the needs of the job and my family.

About 2 weeks later, i was informed that i had been rejected. When i asked for the reasons, i was told that they were concerned with the fact that my childcare arrangement would adversely affect my work performance. I further heard that some of the specific comments that the interview panel gave were: 1. I had resigned previously to spend time with my elder child so they had concern that I may do it again. (huh? Since when are we bound to a job for life? There are a myriad of reasons people leave the job, and I’m penalised for wanting to spend time with my family…) 2. I had mentioned that I would need to fetch my baby from the infant care center by 7pm (i had also said that i can make alternative arrangements should the need arise for me to work late on certain days, but obviously that was disregarded.).

So, generally it feels like I have been rejected because of the fact that I have a young family and am therefore perceived as a much lesser employee. This, despite the fact that I will be putting in the same number of working hours and efforts as any other staff. And this is a government stat board we are talking about.

A friend of mine who has a 2-year-old toddler told me that she had two job interviews with two government bodies recently. She was similarly bombarded with questions about having a young child, and was even blatantly told by one of the organisations that she should just remain in her current job as her current company was probably more pro-family.

So yes, i thk laws are essential since even the government, which is supposed to be leading the way in promoting work life balance, is not walking the talk. Mindsets (of employers, both government and private) need to be changed if we really want to achieve better work life balance for the general working population, and perhaps legislation is the only way kick start it.