It has always being the case that our govt has treated even it’s citizens as engines that will help ignite the economy. They are mere commodities rather than human beings.

If the govt can treat it’s own people with such indignity why can’ they do the same with foreigner workers? The only catch is that foreigners can left after making their money but citizens are stucked here with no alternative choices whatsoever.

I like Tan KL’s story few months back about Animal Farm – whereby the similar plight might have hit our people here. People are treated like digits helping the companies and country to make money at the expense of time spent with their family members.

They live their life going round and round just by making their money and when they grow old they hardly have live a life. Our small salary package also does not really justify the hard work put in sometimes.

That is one of the main reasons why many abled Singaporeans migrate to other countries trying to have a balanced lifestyle which they know they wont get back home.

I agree with you Gilbert. There is a separate article in the Shitty Times today about the PM calling on Singaporeans to live alongside the ‘spices” that these foreigners bring. It really tells exactly what sort of leaders we have. After 50 years of racial and social integration and bonding, and, when the races are finally beginning to gel as one people, we are now being told that we have become bland, tasteless – and that we have to have spices added to our racial and harmonious concoction.

He also talked about how unrealistic it is to expect the first generation of PRs and new citizens to serve NS pointing out that a good number of their children are doing so instead. I find this justification a load of craps.

The main point here is, as I have mentioned previously, – OPTION. The PR has the option, after twenty years of living and working in our home, of deciding whether their children want to serve NS or return to their own country. Singaporeans do not have this option.

Put all this together and what we see is this: A foreigner comes to Singapore, takes our job (not necessarily the talented ones), takes our home and disturbs the value of our home, make a fool of us with the constant call for us to adjust to his behaviour and attitude, have Singaporeans as his protector, build his own retirement home with the money he earns and having the option to decide to call it quits when he grows tired of living in this land.

There is the constant refrain that when one pays peanuts, one gets monkeys. This has been used as justification to increase the ministers’ pay. What they fail to realize is that the same adage applies to all ranks – even the unskilled worker. Pay them peanuts and you get monkeys. (Or are we being classified monkeys already – I wonder?).

So, instead of finding ways to help increase the wages of these unskilled Singaporean workers, so that the Singaporean worker can make a serious decision to take up these jobs, they instead choose to allow employers to use peanuts to attract the unskilled workers from abroad.

The ill-treatment cases aside: I think we have too many foreign monkeys in our land already. It is time for this government to make these jobs more attractive, in terms of better wages, so that we do not have to depend on monkeys – especially those from abroad.

I agreed with Gilbert, Citizen is treated like commodities while the top is immune to competitions around the world.

Let show them what is life about during next elections!

(a) I have been asking in earlier posts, and I had no answer (yet). Just what is the proportion of PRs/ new citizens serving in NS against the eligible no. of PRs/ new citizens ? Lack of transparency is sometimes a hindrance for policy makers and citizens to work out differences.
(b) Sure policy makers have made it such that the PR has an option. Why not make it either :
(1) mandatory for them to declare that their children will serve NS, with a refundable deposit, upon conversion to PR and finished NS ? OR
(2) mandatory for them to declare before their children reach the NS serving age if they will go through it. If they do, then no need for lump sum payment (or other differentiating schemes e.g. housing tenancy), and if not then they need to pay a lump sum upon conversion ?
The option is still there, but with a clearer understanding of the dynamics and consequences by both parties.
All other factors being equal, most employers will place a premium for candidates with stronger working experience (which PRs/ new citizens are not held to), not stronger NS experience (which locals are held to).

Again, it seemed like we don’t adopt any of these measures because we don’t want the ‘citizenship attractiveness’ to be affected (?) because we need them to perk up the next-generation population numbers in future ?

PM Lee: “SIngapore needs Immigration.”

I think it should be “Singapore needs Emigration”.

PM Lee: “In the midst of all these discussions about Singaporeans and non-Singaporeans, I should emphasise one point – that in Singapore, the interests of citizens have to always come first.

Thanks for trying to think of us only after all so much complaints and before the great election comes.

PM Lee: “Not a short term interest but a long term interest. It is to safeguard the long-term interest of Singaporeans …”

You have not even tackled the immediate problems of local-foreigners’ injustices, unemployment, rich-poor disparity, your unjustifiable high salary, kicking your father out of the country’s business, and you are talking about our long term interest? Haha … I wonder how long you will last ..

PM Lee: “And that depends on you, as your enter the workforce, work, settle your families and become the next generation of Singaporeans, what kind of Singapore you want.”

Don’t you get it? We want a foreigner free Singapore. We want a FAMILEE free Singapore. We want a scholarfree Singapore. We want our country back. Your FAMILEE is robbing everything away from us. It was a mistake from our ancestors not to stop your father from exploiting us from the very first moment. We want your FAMILEE to leave this country.

If Singaporeans are treated as economic digit and in old age send to die in foreign land, we can be assured that this govt will not treat foreign labour any different from the way Singaporeans were treated. It was worse. The bottom line here is, this govt is not a compassionate govt, they are borned out of greed and power – the end result is everyone suffer except themselves.

I find it interesting that the articles in the MSM stated that he said NS is a sore point for men in this country and that’s it. So what is his gahmen going to do about it? Nothing. Not only is it a sore point, the fact that we are put at a constant disadvantage is of no concern to him, I mean he is a BG and now earns millions with a job so secure, not even the biggest typhoon can blow it away.

You spend your 2 to 2.5 years learning that you are shit then another 10+ years of “reservist training” while your female and foreign colleagues gets all the promotions because they are always there. So what F**king thanks do we go? Have to compete with others (more “others” now) for job security. Have to compete with others (ON AN EQUAL FOOTING) for places in Universities and also to do your post-grad. Our children have to compete (with non-Singaporeans) to get into the schools you want. The list goes on.

WHERE IS THE F**KING APPRECIATION FOR OUR TIME SPEND IN LEARNING TO “DEFEND” THIS COUNTRY? Don’t tell me about tax rebates (not enough to justify our yearly call ups) or even SAFRA or similar. They are just crap and all of us knows it.

Singapore needs immigration but the bigger reason is for political gain, in getting votes since more and more citizens are getting disgruntled and unhappy with the government.

It is not about people. Whatever it is, the ruling party major concern is to win in every election.

Somehow LHL words always sound hollow and out of touch with the ground situation. Everyone remembers both this national day speech and rally? Imagine trying to align with the local audience with a phrase like “laska no hum” — hello, the official policies say otherwise on use of Singlish and dialects for past 20+ years. This is usual politician tactic to try to align with the locals, just to gain some empathy, but with no sincerity. So, foreigners coming in should be tested on proficiency of Singlish now, lah?!

The term “transient” worker is a clever misnomer. This gives the impression of being short-termed and usually refers to construction workers and maids. However the reality is that there are 1.2 millions them here, and some of them (e.g. maids) have been here for more than 10 years. The term is also usually explained as “…jobs which Singaporeans shunned.” Actually, no jobs will be shunned IF they are re-designed properly and are well-renumerated (in line with the “unpleasantness” of the work nature). They must also be well represented, say by effective unions, to prevent any sort of abuses & deployable conditions. It is therefore surprising that our NATO union chief doesn’t address such basic fundamentals but rather spent his time (and our money) on rabbling in sing-songs. The sad fact is that such “transient” workers are ALLOWED here under DEPLOYABLE conditions because cheap labor is required to conveniently boost the GDP number.

Imagine our policies able to treat humans as such; there is no telling what citizens or true-blue Singaporeans will be subjected to.

“….Interest of citizens will always come first….” says LHL. Anyone cares to expand on this, and I will jump in.

There are a few reasons for PM to make this speech at NTU.

1. It is a low profile speech since it was not addressed at the state Day.
2. He wants to brainwash the undergraduates, both locals and foreigners (by the way, the china students receive scholarship to study in singapore – i know that becos i was lecturing there a year ago but now left for better pasture)
3. He knows these students will graduate to make or play an indirect part in the population policy (he wants them to think ‘Foreigners first’ as part of his grand scheme – a sustained calibrated increase in foreigners in our midst).

His chief aim is political, still. he hopes the foreigners, when they become citizens, will vote for the PAP regime out of gratititude and/or to ensure that the PAP will protect their economic and political interest.

He fail to see that the foreigners are now calibrating their moves, gradually climbing up to higher powers. the foreigners need to move up because they need power to protect their own interest, in case the PAP failed them. You can see alot of foreigners (esp. china mainlanders holding top positions in NUS now which was previously unheard, unthinkable.)

Where will that lead us? What will be left for the true singaporeans, esp those who serve NS and the 13-year cycle? I shudder to think, in my darkest moment.

Apologies, I posted this on the wrong thread. It should be here.

So there we have it, “several hundreds” new citizens and PRs are doing NS. So it was another “affordable” or we are transparent and accountable but we will not reveal anything even if there is public interest statement .

Furthermore, an example of a outstanding Malaysian was provided. Correct me if I am wrong but most Singaporeans have never considered Malaysians “foriegners” nor have we made any issue of them working here or moving here since our independence. Many of our present political leaders are Malaysian born anyway. I did my NS 20 years ago and I had so many Malaysians with me. I never did realise that we needed to integrate Malaysians nor do I need integration when I go to Malaysia. Its like saying people from Jurong need to be integrated when they shift to Bedok. Did anyone one of you guys who did NS in the past few years meet many non-Malaysian foreigners doing NS? So it can a case where the Malaysians have come to the rescue to make up the numbers for foriegners doing NS.

Apparently, we might not understand the benefits of having so many foriegners now but it is very good in the long term. I believe that was exactly the same rational that was provided when the stop at two campaign was launched and now after the long term we are suffering and yet no one has taken the responsibility to admit that they were myopic in their judgement.

Only time will tell if out immigration policy will benefit us in the long term but one thing for sure is that no one will take responsibility if it does not, just like our population policy. Perhaps, we need to look at other countries which had a liberal immigration policy in the the past and use it as a image for our future . I no longer take anyone’s word and as advised by our esteemed leader, we have to take responsibility for our own future

“Citizen is treated like commodities” whereas the echelons treat themselves like diamond that always has high value and masters of commodities .

I’ve learnt to treat anything they say with a huge spoonful of salt.

I read only “elections are coming” in this message.

I also remember what Khaw said previously about “no means testing” BEFORE elections and “affordable means testing” AFTER elections.

vote. responsibly.

There is no room for more. We have to sleep in triple-decker and share pants already man!

I hear Upturn the Downturn “song” and then I hear that those who are in low paying jobs are an economic problem.

I hear that HDB is affordable and a few days later I hear that measures will be out soon to curb housing speculation.

I hear that Abu Dhabi bought Chartered Semi from ST at S$5.6B; NY times, Bloomberg, WSJ reports S$2.5B.

I hear that people complain that Temasek is not transparent and then I heard Temasek say that they have no regrets being so transparent.

I hear that they are regulating the inflow of foreigners, then when I volunteered to press the lift for the crowded lift coming to work this morning; I could not understand what half the people were telling me in “English”; *, 5, 4, @. #…..

Reading this post, I have decided one thing and that is to have Laksa with hum later for lunch.

“I hear that people complain that Temasek is not transparent and then I heard Temasek say that they have no regrets being so transparent.”

Similarly, very soon you will find Shitty Times reporting that “PM Lee has no regrets calibrating the inflow of foreigners” !

While TOC has released numerous articles covering the plights of abused transient foreign workers, for some reason not explained to Readers officially, it has still not focussed on abuses faced by local employees.

I not happy.

we were at the ministerial forum and hearing some foreigners spout a whole load of crap….some asking to scrap freshmen orientation camps, some asking the PM where to put their money during the current economic crisis and some asking the PM to allow them to buy 1st hand hdb…..seriously, some of them act if we owe them something but the fact is the other way round

“….Interest of citizens will always come first….” says LHL.

TELL IT TO THE MARINES….

Recent attempts to tone down public discontent is just the agenda ahead of GE, probably 1st half next yr. When they are voted in again, it is back to the usual ram down yr throat policy making. So, exercise yr citizen’s rights properly. It will probably be the only time when true blue S’poreans can really voice their opinion. The rest of the time, you are no better than a foreigner, in fact worst off.

Hi 14) SotongBall,

Must add something nice leh ….

I hear Standard Chartered is sponsoring the Liverpool shirt next season. Even the long entrenched Carlsberg sponsorship has lost …. change is the answer ….. change is what we need.

If you people don’t throw them out, they will throw you people out of the country soon, the process of citizen exchange is already going on with the free citizenship given to the FT flooding the country, what else do you think is going to happen to you people soon?

“….Interest of citizens will always come first….” says LHL.

I used to be a believer too. Now I will say :

TELL IT TO THE MARINES…

The only reason why our ministers have (and will continue) to allow a huge influx of foreigners (who easily obtain PR) is that ministerial salary will increase as a result. This is because ministerial salary is pegged to top private sector remuneration. an we all know that top private sector earners are mostly CEOs. CEOs’ pay will increase or stay stable only if their companies can continue to hire cheap foreign labour.

Conflict of interest

In an article reporting on the dialogue from the Straits Times dated 16th Sept 2009, PM Lee talked about how Singapore has to cope by overcoming its restraints. He stated that the most important one is that of a “dearth of talent”, which must thus be overcome by the import of talents from foreign lands.

As one poster has rightly pointed out, there will be no shortage of local talents if the government had been willing to match “unpleasant” jobs with the right level of remuneration – the same principle which they apply to themselves – and themselves only.

Another point that should be noted is that taking in “foreign talents” to curb a dearth in local talent, even if we were to ignore the political aspect of it, (i.e. foreigners who gets PR/citizen status here is likely to be grateful and vote for the PAP, to displace the opposition votes by singaporeans who have lived here for years and have grown unhappy with the government echelon’s high and heavy-handed methodologies.) is simply taking the easy way out.

Taking in foreign talents by the thousands means the government no longer has to put effort and build infrastructure to build up local talents. It’s cheaper, faster, and needs little effort compared to if the govt has to learn how to accommodate the training needs of the local population, who due to their citizenship and sense of ownership of the country, would be more discerning, aware of their rights and have higher expectations. Year after year focus will simply be placed on attracting foreign talents, resulting in a vicious cycle whereby the local population will be largely ignored – if they wish to survive, they have to make it on their own. The govt, trusted with the responsibility of the people, would have effectively washed their hands clean off of this responsibility right under the nose of the public, and many would be struggling too hard to even realize.

Desmond,

Sorry hor…..there is no tax rebate for NSmen, only some tiny and miserably tax relief.

Joker Lee,
what is your exact definition of talent ? Even a talent that get thing done but can be paid a meager salary and work in poor environment can also be considered a type of talent. So please don’t insult our intelligence when you talk about “foreign talent”.

Totally agree with Gilbert @ 1.

When our own citizens are been treated as such, you can’t expect them to treat the FW in a better way.

The workers are just a mean to an end….the end is the growth that they want so that somebody’s big paycheck can be justified.

So can anyone just tell me one thing, just one thing, that LHL has done right since his ascension?

The comments here seem to have deviated a little from the content of the main article, ie, that vulnerable foreign workers need to be protected as Singapore starts to boot them out when they are no longer needed, to what most commenters appear to be interested in, the struggle between international and local workers vying for the same better paid (well, compared to maids), mainly white collar jobs.

Regarding the former, I agree with the author’s summation but find it sad that no one has commented on it yet. Maybe this apathy towards their plight is the reason that there’s so little political traction in favour of securing the rights of these foreign workers.

Regarding the latter, it’s interesting that almost all responses have been negative to Lee Hsien Loong’s remarks. Sure, it’s an election promise with all the requisite spin, but it seems like a Yes to the request of many Singaporeans, that the influx of foreign white collar workers be stemmed and reduced. I’ll like to acknowledge that a question I had has been answered definitively and I am waiting to see whether this promise will be borne out in reality. Anyhow, I am interested in the foreign/international vs local talent debate and would like to request that TOC write an article that is more directly related to this topic.

Hi Albino Hum Dow Wager #16,

You said, “While TOC has released numerous articles covering the plights of abused transient foreign workers, for some reason not explained to Readers officially, it has still not focussed on abuses faced by local employee”

If Singaporeans are willing to come public with their stories, we will cover them.

It takes a few years for you to get the Singaporean phrase right, so it might takes a few more years to understand that your elites policies have make us suffer like a slaves.

The two years NS is killing Singaporean competitiveness in our own country, right here! understand.

Time is running out, you have one more year or less to understand the Singaporean. Or else our dear Singaporean will give other a chance, and reset all your policies. Even our military will not listen and help you lah!

What do you expect from a govt that treat its citizens badly?

I wonder if we hear this kind of horror stories in the 70s-80s.

The officers then had a heart.

Now, they don’t have sense of social justice and a heart.

“Act IV of the Employment Act, which mandates a compulsory day-off for employees, do not apply to maids as well”
- please, if the govt does not hold us responsible for whatever the maid does on their off days, who would deny them a day off?
Change this first before highlighting the fact they have no official off days

Hi Michelle,

The deviation is inevitable because the PM did not find it necessary to tackle the disgruntled voice of Singaporeans but expects us to appease and help these foreigners integrate with us instead. Very simply, it means the PM has gotten his priority wrong.

To answer your other concern about the plight of the foreign worker, I ask: “How did the foreign worker becomes so vulnerable in the first place?”

Is it not because of the door-wide invitation for companies to employ cheap labour, and while doing so, ignoring the need to ensure that these jobs are first and foremost made attractive for Singaporeans? You see, when the citizens are not taken care of, by means of ensuring gainful employment with fair wages and all the other basic necessities looked after, but instead, foreigners are encourage to replace these citizens – the equation cannot be but utterly wrong.

Making things worse is these foreigners jumping at the chance to come over to work and being paid peanuts. Making it further worse is the fact that these are illiterate workers who do not even know what they are getting themselves into with their agents and employers. Whose sympathy should they be seeking? Yours and mine? More importantly, who is responsible for their plight? Can one not see that the root cause of all these problems is the government’s policy of cheap labour?

28) Michelle

I agree with you perfectly.

The article talks about how WRONG it is to treat FWs as ‘cogs in machines’.
And many commenters ‘agrees’ with the article and wants FWs to be gone,
thus having the same mentality that FWs are cogs to be gotten rid of.

I think many people missed the point of the article.
And part of it is because people are too used to be disagreeing with the govt and am not used to disagreeing with TOC, even though they are at odds with the TOC’s point.

Interesting case of cognitive dissonance? :)

Anyway, Singaporeans tend to view issues in terms of govt vs the ‘People’. But in many cases, such as FWs, the ‘People’ can have conflicting positions- some are more sympathetic, while others want them out.

We need change but will we be the change that we want to see?

We have a dream but it’s time to wake everyone up to realise the dream. It’s about uniting, it’s about speaking in one voice and most importantly, it’s about never turning your back to the cause. It entails marching on even when you are faced with arms.

Only through a good fight can we, too, pride our country as the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Just my two cents’ worth. Peace.

Even IF (yes , IF!) the gate for admittance of foreign new immigrants is opened less wide, does this mean :

1. there is not Already too many new immigrants already?

2. today’s cna news headline : http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/1005139/1/.html

“PM Lee promises calibrated flow of immigrants, to keep with tone of society”

By ‘promise’ i assume all along the inflow is Already calibrated?
By ‘promise’ i assume it is not a description for future or new action?

My assumption is inflow should be planned before inflow allowed and calibrated at the start based on a long term plan at least 10 years ago. So how does one know when was this move started?

“But we cannot make it so onerous for PRs and non-residents that nobody wants to come to Singapore.”

So, how can we tell what is the difference in plan based on the ‘promise’?

1. Where does the statistics come from?
2. I do not assume there is a need for independent audit on the stats? If my assumption is correct, does it mean the all such statistics given is no need to question and we can accept as the truth? I think so. but not sure about you the readers.

3. Luckily there is state-owned or related MSM. We just need to rely on this news for the truth. IF it says in future the new intake is lowered , then it must be the truth.

hurray!

More fundamentally, the Employment Act should be extended to include domestic slaves, i mean, maids as well. If it is true that most employers treat their maids fairly well by giving them reasonable pay and a day off, there is no reason why the law cannot be amended to prevent further maid abuse.

The ‘equation’ (as mentioned by gemami) for this is also wrong. The issue is not just employer versus employee in the maid issue. It’s how the law acts to make BOTH unhappy. Even in a ‘normal’ situation, the maid may feel that she is overworked/abused and the employer overly worried that the maid may do something wrong, with all the consequences being borne by him. Somewhat a volatile situation…

I am not trying to justify abusive employers, but it may be that some ‘abusive’ actions of the employer is mainly to minimize his/her own risk should the maid go ahead and do something wrong.

To simply imply that employers treat maids as slaves is overdoing it. The problem is the Law for this relationship is not balanced. Everything tilts towards the govt and the maid agencies, while those involved (the maid and the employer) gets the short end of the stick.

29) Donaldson on September 16th, 2009 12.38 pm
“If Singaporeans are willing to come public with their stories, we will cover them. ”

How do you know they are not willing? I am.

To 28) michelle…

i agree with you that local labour authority should protect “transient workers”…since PR i believe already have such “protection”…

once a “transient worker” leave singapore…he/she will carry with him the good/bad/evil experience he/she underwent in singapore…sure he/she can’t do anything to singapore but he/her words of those experiences will spread around…yeah easy to don’t care…but in the future you never know what will come out of it and how it will affect singapore reputation and people directly/indirectly…

You mention that our respected PM mee siam mai ham has finally come around to put our citizens 1st….but please bear in mind….our top talents with their outstanding pay outs [directly/indirectly from singapore citizens] should have in the 1st place see this and other issues coming from their policies and head these issues off….the politicians in authority are paid a lot to think ahead and take preventive actions ahead….not last minute, not from feedbacks from screwed up policies they authorized to go-ahead and not to take short cuts at the expense of citizens/transient workers….

i understand some fellow citizens will say better late then never…but remember why only late this year when general elections is around the corner are the local politicians doing this…they know singapore citizens are really fed up…and so they do all these last minute stuff and other “so called” freebies [which can always be gotten back by jacking up gst to 7% or ERP even more]…

frankly, if i am given a chance to vote [if ever since i am in a bloody waljover always GRC]…i will vote for the opposition…i dun give a damn if the opposition candidate is a physicopath, a looney, a clown, a fool or whatever people will say i will still vote for him or her….right now we already have a couple of clowns or fools in authority who already lost a lot of money for singapore….who earn so much at the expense of its hard working citizens…who set policies and never check or even sound out with its citizens first just using the so call “mandate” to justify going ahead with policies that are never thought out and re-think carefully again and again just do it and at the last minute discovered opppsss…but who suffered the silent majority of the citizens who keep swallowing the repetitive mistakes of the so called elites and scholars…it is okay for them to make mistakes and apologize and move on…but for us so call citizens…when a mistake is made we have to pay for it…but for them it is okay we always have the citizens to fall back on again and again and again…

i am sick of it….if you are so call top talents and indispensable why such mistakes…you are already paid so much but still “mistakes” keep happening…do you know each mistake makes the waste of the past efforts and sacrifices of 44 years of nation building by the citizens of singapore and yes the contributions of past pap ministers, MPs and PAP supporters too….

please for god-damn sake remember you are there for the citizens of singapore…not the other way around…and remember it every bloody second and every bloody minute each day….a leader never put himself/herself 1st…he/her people always comes first….that is leadership lesson 101….it seems some of you so call elites and scholars has forgotten this cardinel rule.

super haiz…..and super sad.

Hi Albino Hum Dow Wager #37,

You are welcomed to contact us at theonlinecitizen [at] gmail.com

All these talks are a little too late. Singaporeans have lost faith in their empty talks and contrary actions.

pap will pay dearly in the next election……………………… the father knows, he knows, they all know!!!

@28) Michelle

I hope you realize we are talking about politicians here…before elections it’s usually, “how are you dear? did you fall? come let me put bandage.”

After election, it’s usually, “you fell? Clumsy fella!!”

Classic example is our Health Minister Khaw’s ‘means testing for hospital may not happen at all” in 2006, barely 3 weeks before the election. The timing ensured that it was still fresh in our well-indoctrinated minds as Singaporeans ambled to the booths to sign away their souls for another 3-5 years (will we ever be certain?).

Within the next 12 months, Health Minister Khaw announced “may kick in”, taking out doubts about implementation, leaving only the actual steps to be decided on.

Singapore, Zimbabwe, USA…it’s all the same.

This is one of many quotations that serves men well because it cuts across all religions and addresses the universal sin of greed and corruption – Matthew 7:15 “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves”

Why not look at it from another angle? Maybe foreigners are mistreated because Singaporeans are not happy that too many foreigners are in our country??

All I hope is that no more increase of GST. There are many many poor citizen here. I don’t think our PM himself has tasted hard life.

28) Michelle on September 16th, 2009 12.22 pm,

Are you aware that in Singapore, we have a growing trend of key positions in companies occupied by foreigners, and they have direct reports as Singaporeans ? and :
(a) they implement various measures, hard, or soft to demonstrate they can better run businesses by getting rid of the locals, and bringing their own people here ?
(b) when they have made enough money, they make systematic withdrawals for appointments to other countries (with better track records), or back to their hometown ? (not register themselves as citizens)

As I said in my earlier posts, I have nothing against having foreigners in our midst. It’s not about the arithmetics of putting in immigrants/ or calibrated immigrants (as they called it) just because we blundered on population policies (without anyone in the policy maker ranks talking about the emperor’s new clothes). It’s about addressing the entire dynamics when jobs, particularly ‘high value ones’ are at stake. I acknowledge that we have ill-treated foreigners in our midst, but quoting such examples hardly presents one with the entire picture of reality. Why ? Because the plans made were not entirely in touch with reality and the people.

Who is not creating room for who ?

you all singapooriums…don’t played prayed..where have the spice of LIEs?
you all peasants don’t entertained the royal palace of LEE..so what to do?
the prince our holy emminent the prime minister of singapore have to make more rooms for foreigners to add the spices lor…remember what he says 2 years ago? maihiam hor.. he ordered a mee siam he just don’t want chilly mah….

this crap talk again and again – one word to describe it – ‘propaganda’.

1. politically this FTs & FWs will increased thier strength of community numbers once being converted to citizenship.
2. since singaporean are being so obey and controlled. the FTs are generally more easy to trap. thus to replenish thier vote should singaporean changed thier mind of supporting them.
3. they see present situation and esp when old fart is gone by then, this is the only way of ups thier stakes instead of concrete ideas, creativity and freedom of speech and media which are gradually out of control as time evolves.

33) gemami

I can agree with you on Foreign workers but we should also have the guts to admit we are continuing the cycle of cheap imported labour by employing our maids and thus instituting an open door ourselves. I have not seen a lot of fellow Singaporeans apply for a job as maid. Or are we willing to imagine life without the $300 full time employee?

They should deserve our compassion and our best intentions.

I encountered a foreigner job agency . It supplied singaporean to a company.
They packaged him to be more than he is capable.
He did not last long.
Having a reason not able to find the right talent, they got a foreigner.

[...] PM Lee’s inappropriate use of Israel as an example to promote the merits of immigration – TOC: Room for more, but at what cost? – Mr Wang Says So: Citizens in the Vice Trade Up Against Strong Foreign Competition – Singapore [...]

I am still puzzled how these people (the PM and his Cabinet esp that Marbok fellow and that Lui fellow) get to where they are. Is this man, (the PM) the best we can find? Did the PAP members have a say who they want to be their leader? Why are Sporeans like zombies including scholars? Why o why?

Other countries are limiting immigration, such as US & UK, on the other hand, Spore boasting its economic success and wealth, has no choice but to welcome immigrants? Sure or not, Mr PM? Other countries like UK has a system to admit qualified people who can contribute or add to their society, Spore is free for all. Right or not, Mr PM?

I am still puzzled how these people (the PM and his Cabinet esp that Marbok fellow and that Lui fellow) get to where they are. Is this man, (the PM) the best we can find? Did the PAP members have a say who they want to be their leader? Why are Sporeans like zombies including scholars? Why o why?

@28) Michelle on September 16th, 2009 12.22 pm.
@43) kf on September 16th, 2009 3.13 pm

I think #43) kf has put the actual question in proper perceptive in relation to the direction posed by #28) Michelle.

Getting “clogs in a machine” is part of the “cheap labor” policy. Getting Singaporeans to take responsibility of integrating foreigners is part of the “grow-at-cost” policy. Acknowledging the citizens concerns but having no concrete actions is part of the “get-out-of-my-elite-face” policy.

How Singaporeans perceived the foreign influx is not the garhem’s concern. How employers treat these cheap labor is not the garhem’s concern. How S’porean fend for themselves against these foreigners (for jobs, housing, etc..) is not garhem’s concern. Whether Singaporeans tear foreigner to shreds or vice versa is not their concern. As long as someone is generating the taxes, that is the garhem’s concern.

So, rather than micro-analysis the wordings of this article, I think we should look at it from the overview perceptive — Who causes all these gripes that we are having?

Incidentally, someone may see it as a victory that PM Lee has finally touch on the foreigner issue. This is pure BS. Mentioning this issue in a close-door event, to perhaps couple of hundred kiddies (have anyone read the youth section in REACH?!), for 45 minutes. Hmphh…..Compare to not a word to the whole nation for 2 hours during the ND rally. Somehow, I don’t call this priority.

Heny @ 48

I have never agreed to using maids. It was a wrong move by the Govt in their pursuit to encourage women to work fulltime. Most houses are not a home anymore and most children have lost a mother to run to in the home.

Y bother..everyone that is able to leave should leave..and than send our money back to the less fortunate singaporeans trap on the island

“I have never agreed to using maids. It was a wrong move by the Govt in their pursuit to encourage women to work fulltime.”

That is the point. If women have to work fulltime, it will double the household salary which give the government leeway to say that combined household salary allow them to buy high-price “affordable” housing. Notice that when government say that housing is affordable and go by their rubbish calculation, it is always assume that both husband and wife are working. Hence, It is all about generating supernomal profit for the gov. Get it ?

@39) sturmtruppen on September 16th, 2009 2.00 pm

“….please for god-damn sake remember you are there for the citizens of singapore…not the other way around…please for god-damn sake remember you are there for the citizens of singapore…not the other way around….”

Unfortunately, having 98% of parliament from only 34% of votes, it is no wonder that our back-door-entry Ministers & gang would now think that the world owes them a living.

A psychopath opposition candiate and current MPs (remember the loony Lee Bee Wah), what’s difference?

@54) Ling on September 16th, 2009 5.40 pm

Have to agree with Ling here. With the cost of living “set” high (e.g. affordable HDB housing?), a family is “encouraged” to have 2 working adults. The maid industry was invented since there is levy to collect from it. Also, 3 working adults instead of one per family — does wonders to the GDP figure, no?

BTW, someone I know working in China has a cook and a housekeeper. The local housekeeper refuse to cook and the cook refuse to do anything except cooking. Oh, the driver washes the car. Seems like the market norm there. See, Singapore, so cheapskate — maid does everything. (One family I know even have the maid giving their dogs haircuts!)…. Monkeys, peanuts, Singapore….Aspiration(?)

Hi Terence Lee:

“IMAGINE a gathering of Singaporeans, Permanent Residents, and expatriates in the same room, talking and sipping martini.”

“Such is the story of the Ministerial Forum 2009, held at the Nanyang Technological University yesterday. Themed “Is there room for more?” — the speaker was Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong. Predictably, he touched on topics that were topmost on the minds of the students there”

Curious, did this really happen? I personally find it hard to believe that we have students/academics etc sipping martini in NTU. Just wanted to verify, thanks :)

To forgottongeneration:

not only do some [still hope not all of them local politicians...sorry correct term is so call technocrats] thinks the world owns them a living…even local singaporean…and even when mistakes are made they will still continue to own them a living [no thanks to the idiotic GRC set-up to keep some self servcing nuts or super-sized peanuts they are zzzzzz complacently in their current positions]….

only hope left is the citizens of singapore to really decide do they still want to continue to be a singaporean by voting with their feet or squander away their votes or accept defeat and leave due to the so called “level” playing field and artificial created barriers that keep the real “losers & quitters” in their current political positions…to para-phase our very respective MM LKY…”You should have gone in with your eyes open [and decide based on actual facts you have to dig out _ add in by me]“….

i can only hope the citizens of singapore to really think and re-think….do we want to continue to let a bunch of so called top talent continue to think they own singapore and can do whatever they want to their “citizen slaves” in singapore or do we still want to be part of singapore….if we want to do it…we can…be it opposition, pap or whatever … we can be singaporeans and singapore and be more then the sum of parts…because the future nobody knows what will happen … and there will be difficult challenges…we can work together and move forward together for the betterment of everyone and for singapore…

not for a bunch of over-rated top talent and a bunch of obedient cronies…i dun believe all polticians and also all the technocrats in pap are like that…i dun believe so….

we are all singaporeans and we should fight it out to make life better then what it can be and be more then just a nation…a nation that is not only equal but also a humble nation amongst all nations in the world…as people as all people…

never forget how all those current politicians and perhaps even their own technocrats look at singapore’s own politicians and technocrats….behind their perceived smiling faces….you will never know what they show you is true sincerity or respect….or how they see singapore and its citizens….singapore a country or a company…singapore citizens as human beings or just workers or worst just unthinking slaves…

We can be so much more…if only….we are give the chance, the opportunities…

i know our local grads thru our local unis are the best…and can be better if given the same treatment as the foreign imported grads too….

haiz.

#59:

I’m just imagining things ;-)

There wasn’t martini, maybe more like cocktail syrup.

All of us had heard the story of one club golfer. We have a one policy gahment – grow GDP. That had been in place for a long time. Social issues that affect both local and foreigners are not investigated and no action taken to retify it. It seem any issue that potentially could cost additional expenditures will not be investigated but just left alone. We have to look after ourselves and the poor FT/FW had to do the same except some charitable NGO step in to help sometime. Our society had become “strongest take all” and rule of the jungle apply. Singapore reputation as a fair and just society had taken a downhill dive. One just wonder what the gahment had in mind. Is it because the big boss did not say anything about those issues so no one dare to raise it ? We have many ministers but we have only one thinking one. We as a country is truly set to goes downhill if the political climate remain the same after the next GE.

“….One just wonder what the gahment had in mind. Is it because the big boss did not say anything about those issues so no one dare to raise it ? We have many ministers but we have only one thinking one…..”

Reminds of Hitler — Germany then had many very capable generals but when the Big Boss makes idiotic decisions/policies, e.g. Stalingrad, Wacht am Rhein, etc.., all the generals just mumbled and do their master’s bidding. History has a tendency to repeat itself.

Only a tew hundreds PR doing NS.
What happened to the other few hundred thousands?
Too ‘ onerous’ –and they would not come—Are we that desperate?
Many of our TRUE-BLUE have migrated–because they found it too ‘onerous’–and too unfair a burden.
NS FOR ALL OR FOR NONE.
No freebies for newbies.–Stand up for SINGAPOREANS
NO NS no scholarships.

One day, one the street, i overheard a couple lamenting some singaporeans can be characterised as Self Preservatory, Kia Su, Kia Si, Kia Sai, Kia Bor, Kia BoKangTao.

This led me to wonder, what happens if there is war (hypothetical only) ?

What would be the kind of comaraderie we can expect?

I only have questions.

Room for more? Sure, as long as they do not encroach on our First Class Bungalows and confined themselves to HDB heartland.

65) Mucho Gracias

you left out one important characteristic. Kia Cheng Hu

@65.
Hi, I’ve got questions too! I’ve asked myself this variant of this question when i was <18yrs old.

I am curious, why a Singaporean male is required to be enlisted for NS. I am curious what are the duties of a female citizen.

Sometimes the answer on the former question is varied and vague. Eg. that it because we are successful and therefore need to deter jealous western democracies or that in case of a freak result in an election. Other times, the answer is only begging the question, cyclical in nature; that it is because we are singaporean males. However to the latter question, I was not inquisitive enough to seek them till now.

I am curious to what are the duties of a female citizen?

In this age of sexual equality, why should women be denied the opportunity to be drafted to serve our country?

so curious

Singapore is similar to a person who eats and drinks to its fullest,then refuses to acknowledge that he has diabetes and high blood pressure when he is old, hoping that these problems will go away (to Johor) and thinks of ways to do transplants.

Hi @48) Heny,

You have a point there but it does not address the point I was trying to make; which is: that the government take responsibility for being the cause of all these cheap foreign labour. Passing the buck to us, or the employers and even the workers themselves is simply wrong.

Imagine the contractor you have engaged to renovate your home, using cheap and unskilled workers, and when things don’t turn out the way you have expected it to turn out, you tell your contractor about it, and he starts blaming you for not looking after his labourers.

@ 53) theforgottongeneration makes the point better than me.

@69) Patriot Missile on September 17th, 2009 2.11 am

With a fat pay slip and rubbing with Chinese friends, one can even contemplate retiring to China and buy a village named after oneself. The organ transplate bill fit the picture nicely too if one has monie$$. All meticulous planning, do you think? Ha, ha…

Guys, that is why we need to remember to send our message across this coming e.
Kpkb has the least effect compared to that.
I am never so ready in my life.

72) Zingster on September 17th, 2009 2.09 pm Guys, that is why we need to remember to send our message across this coming e.
Kpkb has the least effect compared to that.
I am never so ready in my life.

i’m ready too. and so are most of my friends.
we really need a change of govt. getting really sick from this cancer called pap.

Anyone who wishes to do something instead of just kpkb, you can sign up with ANY opp party to assist in their campaigning or anything you can do like creating and distributing leaflets to every door. To tackle PAP, you first have to dismantle MSM. People need to read alternative media, even in the form of little slips of paper.

#74,

I proposed solutions before on how to get youths to come here and post their honest comments.

I suggested using PSP, PS3 , XBox, iPhones, iPods and stuffs like these as lucky draw prizes . 1 Lucky draw chance per day of posting. Multiple posts per day counted as 1 to discourage people posting for the sake of getting more lucky draw chances.

At the end of each week or bi-monthly, get mr Tan to present at Hong Lim park to the lucky winner, who can be any age TOC reader to encourage all to post what they feel. For uncles and aunties , prizes like massage vouchers, health supplements etc. For working adults, return tickets to nearby countries.

We need to engage them. Time is running out. I dun wan to kpkb all my life, u know.

Like 4D and toto, if try and try again, one day we may make it. Make the decision seriously like your future depends on it.

using lures to entice youthsis a bad idea… this is why S’pore is sliding down the slippery slope.

21) David on July 8th, 2009 11.50 am It appears that our govt lies are not very consistent with each other.

They used to boast about Singapore being an educational hub filled with skilled people. But when it comes to job, they lament we have no talent and used it as an excuse to bring in FT (including foreign farmers) in the hope to mitigate the lower birth rate here. When the jobless rate gone up & wages depressed because of FT policies, they started to blame & shame Singaporean with higher education for not wanting jobs with low wages. Thereafter smoked us that such low jobs requires exceptional skills too and than came up with spur to tease our intelligence. So they tell us to put aside all decades of our tertiary educations, past experiences in MNCs and go into training to become cleaner, security guards, waiters, and other kind of labourers for a small sum just enough to feed the govt but not us. Afraid that the people will protest, they enacted laws to silence us, tie us with it and beat us into submission to accept their statistic as it is with falsified rosy picture, & pap newspaper were also quit to jump in, wanting the people to show praise and gratitude for their job “well done”. The whole system is a well-plotted and co-ordinated group of bullies and take on Singaporeans who are grieved. Is this the type of mandate we want that they do not wish to bow to talented Singaporean but continue to bootlick FT (including 3rd world farmers).

Such bitterness only the ground can feel but it won’t be long when election comes.

VA:F [1.6.3_896]
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22) prettyplace on July 8th, 2009 1.29 pm Even the SPURS numbers reported in CNA was wrong…
from 83,500 + 43,600=124,100. Somehow, they managed to get 124,500.
Wonder what happened to the 400.

Their lies are so blatant….Restructuring was mentioned in year 2000, i guess….and till now with all their training programmes they have not managed to restructure….

what nonsense……almost 10years and they cannot reskill people…..I am sure they will mention the same story again…

The only way out for Singaporeans is to VOTE PAP OUT….send a clear message….Stop the bullshit….make them work for us……not shame us….or test our intelligence….

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23) ACACIA on July 8th, 2009 2.23 pm Yes 22) , I’ve always said this, Vote the PAP out. Singaporeans have to be brave and now is the time. The opposition are more than capable today and many would join to help us through this mess this country and people are facing.
It seems too that the policies that come out are not well thought through. Who finally approves these policies, the ministers, perm secs …..?
People are smarter now to see through the errors of policies. They are not perfect but they cannot be one sided too.

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This is what they said the last time and last time. How many times can we believe lies?

Realistically, the pap put in a mechanism that Singaorean can’t vote them out as Govt, 6 giant GRC with 2SM, PM, MM and 2 DPM will given them 35 seats, pap just take another 7 seats to reach single majority in the 84 seats parliament,
BUT we can do

1) Raise the anti pap votes as high as possible, bring their vote tally down to below 55%

2) Vote out those GRC MP who have never contested in past 2 GE

3) Be brave to voice your dissenting voice everywhere, tell others but in measured and rational way

DONT frighten off the swing voters, the more radical we sounds, the more votes PAP gather

HI @ 76) mice is nice,

It might be a bad idea to use lures but it might be the only necessary step forward in addressing the arrogance of the PAP. We can tackle the slippery road later – after tackling the PAP.

I therefore agree with @75) Sue-Anne Hoong, but the problem is who is going to sponsor all these prizes?

We are having a diverse range of suggestions on how to deal with the PAP and every idea put forward must be seriously considered. I too like the suggestion by Agent008. There are small and big ways on what we can do to help bring Singapore back from its gallivanting trail.

Assuming they ‘calibrate’,
does that mean they cannot re-calibrate in future?
maybe somewhere coincidentally after christmas or before the end of 1st quarter?

# 81

All thinking Singaporeans know that our Government favour immigration / immigrants.

The calibration is made to make them look good before the election.

After the election, I guess it will be back to their “Immigration / immigrants come first” policy”.

82) Duets on September 18th, 2009 12.33 pm

How does the govt favour the immigrants over Singapore Citizens?

Gemami @80 ,
“I therefore agree with @75) Sue-Anne Hoong, but the problem is who is going to sponsor all these prizes?”

Other prizes can be considered like PS3 or XBox games instead. These costs around $40-$60 . Its up to the imagination. There are many other types of prizes costing less than a 100.

As for the sponsor, my personal idea is Mr Tan Kin Lian. He is retiring well after decades in NTUC income.

Shops can be co-opted to give away or sell at cost price in return for promoting their brands or shop name or franchise.

If we don’t consider these options, some other Blogs with a lot of funding may be able to do this and materialistic youths may be swayed over there.

Internet can be Mainstream also. There are mainstream media on the internet also in my opinion. We use internet everyday. So, internet IS MAinstream.

I analysed the singapore situation over many years and seen how things work.

IT TIME!

hi Gemami,

post #80 on September 18th, 2009 8.17 am

////It might be a bad idea to use lures but it might be the only necessary step forward in addressing the arrogance of the PAP. We can tackle the slippery road later – after tackling the PAP.

I therefore agree with @75) Sue-Anne Hoong, but the problem is who is going to sponsor all these prizes?

We are having a diverse range of suggestions on how to deal with the PAP and every idea put forward must be seriously considered. I too like the suggestion by Agent008. There are small and big ways on what we can do to help bring Singapore back from its gallivanting trail.////

alternatively, prizes can be more modest? instead of pricey game consoles, food vouchers to moderately but mid-market food outlets can be considered. also not forgetting shopping vouchers from departmental stores in $20 -$?? denominations.

useful vouchers from:
. major departmental stores,
. electronic/gadget stores,
. hypermarkets,
. food outlets,

… may have a wider appeal, in my opinion. i agree opinions may differ, but prizes should not cater to a target audience too specific as doing so risk alienating others.

;)

If the PAP remains unchecked I see a bleak future where there are 2 groups of people in sinkapore – the very rich and connected, and the very poor and downtrodden. The middle class will be a transient class, each generation getting pissed with living here and immigrating when they are able, then being replaced by a new middle class. It’s already happening with 3rd worlders taking up jobs here that used to belong to locals.

A thinking foreigner will realise that if this place is so attractive, why is the PAP throwing them money and begging them to stay? He’ll be the one begging us to accept him!