Well articulated Mr See.

There is only 1 way out.

That hobbit said it’s ridiculous to compare the current with prices of yester years…meaning 20 years ago leh!

The No. 1 reason for the surging prices is PRs. The PR population has surged in recent years. It went up a whopping 12% from last year. Now there are more than half a million PRs in S’pore.

HDB uses a 30 year loan period to determine that we are within the international benchmark of 30% in terms of household income used for housing loans. Does the international study indicate the loan period used in other countries? Or put it another way – assuming that people in other countries also use 30% of their household income to service housing loans – how long does it take for them to pay it off? Is it 30 years as well?

Thank you See Leong Kit for your great input.

Finally, a crystal clear answer (from you) on how the PAP Government “subsidise” new HDB apartments to make them “affrodable” to young Singaporeans.

Please allow me to highight a salient point in your article which says it all :

“”HDB’s “market-based” pricing approach is the root cause of prices of new flats and resale flats chasing each other in a never-ending upward trend.

A plate of chicken rice cost $3 in HDB coffeeshops and $20 at hotel coffeehouses. It is both illogical and ridiculous for HDB to proclaim that every person eating chicken rice in HDB coffeeshops is getting a “market subsidy” of $17 per plate! “”

If the chicken rice seller at an Orchard Road Food Court (fairer comparison) sells his plate of chicken rice at say, S$ 15.00 and claims that his customer is enjoying a ‘market subsidy’ of S$ 5.00, he will be laughed at and will be forced to close down his business within a day.

- Point to note for our $$$ Million Salaried Ministers.

- Additional note to our Dear Minister MBT : Now that you have been found out, please don’t ever use the word “subsidised” HDB apartments and “affordabe” HDB apartments to us Singaporeans again. The new foreign-born Singapore citizens and the PRs (who have lots of cash and snapping up Re-sale HDB apartments) will still buy your line but NO NO, not local born Singaporeans.

Unless and until we can get our good ‘o gov to open up its tightly guarded closets and be transparent, they’ll continue to be endless doubts and questions about why and how they do things.

As #2 hum said: there’s only 1 way out of this; thru the ballot box.

Let’s blame ourselves for allowing this situation of opaqueness to arise in the 1st place. If in the next GE, the true blue Singaporeans don’t put down our foot, then we shouldn’t blame anyone from shafting a big rod down our throats.

In TODAY, PM Lee is quoted to say that he will make small adjustments to prefer citizens but he CANNOT stop the influx of FT. That’s arrogance for you. Again, we can only stop this via the ballot box.

Does anyone seriously believe that HDB will alter its current policy to make it more affordable for young Singaporeans to own flats. I didn’t think so.

Exercise your right to vote carefully. Give careful thought to your future and your children’s future. I know which party will not be getting my vote.

And at the end of the day, you don’t even own the flat, with the 99 yr lease.

Good article Mr See.
They are minting and yet being arrogant.
Singaporeans should stop providing absolute power to the PAP.

My neighbour works in the construction industry, building condo and previously his companies tendered for HBD flats.
The cost of each flat from the 4 rooms to 5 rooms even at today’s raw material prices is only between 60 to 90K, not counting the land cost which is from the Land Authority. ( right hand to left hand ) If a construction company tenders for a HDB project for 1000 flats at 300 to 400 million, you do the sums, its not difficult. This is only the cost to the HDB which also includes the carpark, walkways, a “small” playground. We pay 15 to 19 K for a lift upgrading and extra room, the cost is not more than 2 to 3K! The government is making more than the private developers of the condos. He laughs at us but what to do. Well if we are smart enough ,we all should know what to do, so he says!!!
With the prices these days, a downturn will hit them harder. The defaulters who bought at these high prices will be in for a very hard time, 230 – 350 K for a new HDB flat is just too high. I am concern for the ordinary folks who earn earn a combine of not more than 4 to 5 K a month. How are they going to afford a flat.

If the government is using the international benchmark to compare the cost of housing loans, then why don’t they on the same basis benchmark their salaries based on international standards as well. Very convenient to use arguments to suit their purspose.

allowing cpf to be used to purchase flats was the catalyst for the huge jump in hdb prices.

to be honest, it is too late. What a lot of people are asking for now is “wealth destruction”; to make prices fall drastically so they can afford to buy it at a lower price.

those who have already purchased flats at high prices will get shafted.

Who is going to compensate them?

The only feasible thing i can see is that hdb provides a larger subsidy for citizen families, build more 5 room units with 4 bedrooms so as to allow 3 generations to live comfortably under the same roof.

At the same time extend to minimum stay period to 10-20 years depending on the size of the subsidy, to negate the effects of people selling their flats once the minimum stay period is up and prevent people from profiteering(from the larger housing grant) from the sale of their flat and causing negative effects to the hdb market.

The asset enhancements has raised asset values, without working out the consequences of such an asset enhancement plan. We are now living through the mistakes made in the past. Any further subsidy will distort the housing market.

New flats should always be de-linked with resale flat prices, since there is a minimum 5 year hold period. The real asset enhancement will come when at the end of 5 years, the flat you hold has valued itself upwards.

As always, the top level need to pay themselves obscene amounts to reward themselves for the “hard work” done. The consequeces is left for the next leader to clear. Maybe HDB rules need to change. Only HDB dwellers need apply to HDB jobs.

Q: “Why we peg to market rates: HDB”

HDB should have just answer the question themselves.

A: It’s because we no longer operated as a government entity and have been behaving like a corparate one; much like how a monopolised grocery shop dictates it’s prices of goods with whimps and fancies of demand and supply … so can HDB. Thank you and good bye”

I feel that tagging HDB to so called “market prices” is artificial and chases its own tail up the price spiral.

First of all, large component of market price is is due to high resale HDB prices that provide HDB upgraders the money to purchase private. And high resale HDB prices is largely due to high new HDB prices (even after subsidy). Yet, new HDB are priced to “market” which is resale HDB and private – isn’t this circular reasoning?

In turn this upping of price leads to rise in rental and that contribute to higher cost of living and business operations, which ultimately (if without change) will only lead to foreign MNCs looking for cheaper cost countries. This means job lost, and all the ugly things you can thing of.

Yawning Bread and ST have a good article on this http://www.yawningbread.org/arch_2009/yax-1069.htm

Of course, government’s solution is to tell its people to take lower pay, don’t be fussy, etc.

So consider this. What if HDB pegs its price to cost factor? Will that reverse the decline in SGP?

Fellow S’poreans, as contributor of above letter:

1 The SIMPLE & IMPORTANT Point I wish to make:

It is BAD ENOUGH to “milk the people” left,right and centre through numerous taxes/dues eg Income Tax, Property Tax, Stamp Duty, GST, COE, ERP, Maid Levy, etc, etc…..

But to make big fat profits out of HDB new flat buyers for such a very basic social amenity as HOUSING [ "roof over their heads" ] is certainly a most DISGUSTING, DISGRACEFUL, DEPLORABLE PAP Political Sin that S’pore Voters should never FORGET, much less FORGIVE!

2 Very Sick Political Joke:
And after SUCKING so much of the People’s hard-earned monies, GIC/Temasick next SQUANDER such monies (through losses by the millions and BILLIONS) via their never-ending Monumental Financial Fiascos !!!

3 At the coming General Elections, pass the word around to fellow S’pore Voters to effect “CHANGE” by Voting Against the PAP:

(i) on account of Mah Bow Tan
(ii) to send a very strong message to the PAP Govt that ENOUGH IS ENOUGH !!!
[ they may still win "by hook or by crook" but we should at least embarrass them with a pathetic result like PAP 52% Opposition 48% i.e. must teach them a long over-due lesson to be more HUMBLE and LISTEN more to the People ]

Well…I mean this is such a simple way for them to milk as much money as possible…

Milking itself is bad enough….hypocrisy by declaring that there are subsidies when huge profit is been reaped off is even worse.

This is a monopoly, so the government find it an easy money-making machine by squeezing from what the people have in their CPF (just leaving aside S$45,000 for CPF life) . So they price the HDB flat according to their whims and fancy and not according to what the people are willing to pay. Thats why when you reach old age, you don’t have enough to retire without anxiety, so you have to work until you drop dead.

If hdb policy is to peg to market pricing, then let the commercial market take over the job. We can sack the minister, all the hdb staff, and save the tax payer $M every year. These yearly saving can be used to increase the current subsidaries, such as to people who buy property – regardless whether hdb or private – near their parent. Or first timer buyers (hdb or private) or whatever.

Our salaries have not risen in proportion with the rising prices of HDB flats and yet some still claim HDB flats are affordable.

What used to take 10 to 15 years to pay off has now become a 30 year burden for most of the current young couples buying flats.

With the volatility of the job market nowadays and coupled with the influx of foreigners competing for jobs against us, how many will be able to maintain 30 years of continuous employment?

I anticipate that we will have our own version of a subprime crisis when the HDB property bubble bursts. I hope we do not have to pick up the pieces for those responsible for creating in the bubble in the first place when that day comes.

For 20) Fortune-teller:

You’re not telling FORTUNE, you’re telling the TRUTH !!!

> How can S’poreans be enjoying QUALITY OF LIFE when they have to:

(a) “pay through their nose” for obscenely-priced “pigeon-holes” [around 1000sf private condos] and over-priced “bee-hives” [less than 1000sf HDB flats]

(b) “work like dogs” over 30 years to pay off their home loans.

> And when that You-Know-Who 80-something Politician conk off:

(a) angry/disgusted S’pore Taxpayer-Voters will force his Son & Entire Cabinet to be deposed/exiled and have to buy passports from Nicaragua [just like Thaksin]

(b) WHO will be left behind to clean up THEIR BIG PILE OF SHIT ???
We, S’poreans AND our children/grandchildren !!!

Ignatius Lourdesamy Deputy Director (Marketing & Projects) for Director (Estate Administration & Property), Housing & Development Board says, “It is what people are willing to pay in the open market.“

Really? I think it is more a case of ‘It is what people have no choice but to pay in the open market.”

This ‘high and mighty’ joker at HDB giving such an insulting and condescending reply is one thing, but TODAY refusing its readers the right of reply? Right there is why New Media trumps Old (School) Media hands down.

Thank you for this piece Mr See. Raises some very fundamental questions. Glad you persisted and sent it off to TOC.

HDB’s reasoning is that if flats can go for 400K in secondary market, what is the need for it to sell new ones to citizens at less than 100K? The original objective of housing for all has long since been achieved. Singaporeans have been pulled out from the 3rd world into the 1st.

Moreover, won’t Singaporeans jump at the chance to profiteer by selling their subsidized flats to willing PRs, leaving HDB out of the equation?

Actually it’s all one gigantic mess. Everything was going smooth util the late 90s. Then things beyond the PAP’s control started happening and they have been scrambling to set things right ever since.

People began leaving, as did companies, so govt started looking for cheaper labor, decided to hand out more PRs, who boost resale market and boost HDB profits and in turn the nation’s. But citizens don’t gain. Meanwhile, T and G have together lost 100B. Where is all that money gonna come from?

From us the citizens who is paying and paying….

now even the peanuts they also want from us citizens…

but what of us citizens…without the current peanuts we are force to shaft down to survive…is it fair for our kids to suffer too….does it mean we are gonna have survive on what…

peanut shells or just air….

do the bloodly government officials kids and parents suffer the same way too? I don’t think so.

And this set up supposely elected every 5 years by its citizens in singapore is called a government? And still do make believe that they are actually government officials….or….dare we say it….something else…

Just because they don’t publish your letter does not mean they are censoring stuff. Heck in this age of the web, you can’t censor anything. Just ask Matyn See….Mr See Leong Kit, take the plunge and Do Something, Stand up for your beliefs. Heck exercise your vote and persuade others to do the same and stop whining that no one will publish your letter, as if writing letters in Singapore will do any good.

Monopoly by anyone or state on a market sector is always bad news. The state role is supposed to provide affortable housing to its citizen not as a profit making machine regardless whatever bench mark used. Corruption by legal mean?PAP regime had become a giant money making corporation. Citizen are there to be told what they had to do. The motto “Do as I say not what I do” seemed to have been perfected into a fine art. I just hoped that Singaporean had grown wiser over the years that a change in our beloved country political landscape is sorely needed. A country without compassion, justice and social equality is a not country but a jungle. We are not far from creating a new class of politically failed state- another uniquely Singapore freature? What is the purpose of creating a large reserve in MAS while Singaporean are suffering now? The state should use the reserve for the benefit of the its citizen that are living now.

I find that the HDB policy has make us wealthier for those who own a flat. When we sell it, we NORMALLY can make a good profit. Then we can happily UPGRade to a condo. You should not worry about the current high price because prices will keep going up in land scarce Singapore – this is simple economics. When you bought 5 years ago, $200k for a 4rm flat in a mature estate was consider very very expensive. But look at the price now – $450k for a 4rm. No worries just go and buy a subsidised HDB flat if you can.

Of course, there are exceptional crisis like in the 1997 Asian Financial Crisis – those who bought Bishan flat at $800k will forever have to stay there because of negative equity.

Yes I agree that our parents use to be able to pay off their loan in10-15 years. But what to do – the world has progress and so does Singapore. This is a place for the more wealthy in future (Financial Hub) – really. It is a fact we have to face if we want to stay here. For your info, China’s aprtment is much more expensive then us.

So the point is that increase should be moderate and we should be quite safe to buy a flat. That’s why our wise government is now trying to prevent another bubble from happening by taking some initatives.

Vote them out – wait long long. It will not happen – where is a GOOD alternative? SO I suggest we think of workeable alternatives rather than flaming the Govt. We have to face reality – really. No choice.

Just my thoughts.

aiyoyo

flat price so expensive

commoners how to tahan?

then by the end of 30years with interest, wa so much $ go into hdb liao

commoners still got how much $ left?

aiyoyo

Stages of HDB syndrome (in ascending order of “jia-lat ness”)

Stage 1: HDB = Housing Debt Burden
Stage 2: HDB = Hysterical Desperate Borrower
Stage 3: HDB = Homeless Destitute Beggar

In summary, HDB syndrome seems to be caused by some abnormality known as “Housing in Disguise Bureaucracy”

To poster “Ilovesingapore” #26.

You said “Meanwhile, T(emasek) and G (IC)have together lost 100B. Where is all that money gonna come from?”

The official line of thinking from government is like this. “you see, the orignal capital was intact. We made some money from investments and we lost those money that we gained last gained from it, therefore- your original money is intact not to worry”. At least this was the xcuse they said when town councils lost money in Minibond. “So the Wise Men in white answer would be – no need to worry, you dumbell. Go do your own thing. Don’t challenge us.” Yucks!

Back to the original issues. inflationary pressure in sngapore including the housing problem is also contributed by the governemnt being unable to balance the Budget (expenditure and income too far apart). Why? They pay the salaries 6 times of Obama salaries, overpaid grossly. How to balance the budget if the civil service (esp. government) is sucking so much out of the resources…. Their salaries are ridiculous, it is the cause of all this high pricings. The leaders should set example. LEt say, ask them to give up their 13th month salary and pass it as hdb subsidies or something benefit citizens. Imagine whole cabinet ministerseveryone of them, get 13th month salary automatically, it is a unbelievable amount. What did they do in the imaginary 13th month when they are not doing much in the 12 months anyway!!!

LHL ’s 12 months total salary is aleady 720 times obama’s salary. All this super duper scale ministers should forgo their 13th month salary and help the citizens.

Zero

you voted for the people who made these policies, and therefore means that you support these policies.

if not, who asked you to vote for them in the first place?

They lost so much $billions of our cpf savings, now they are forcing us to pay for their greedy mistakes to help them stay in power, so? what you people think?

Its really pointless/fruitless to some extent for a small pocket of singaporeans to be lamenting here.

1. Majority singaporeans do not read political blogs of the alternative kind. This is not MSM which is able to reach these majority. The other main reason is Apathy. Deep seated as well as the low level of political involvement of the majority. Also, there is something important these people have never experienced for themselves.

2. people like MBT are the ones elected to do the JOB and his party is given the mandate. Its the PEOPLE who gave the mandate. The executive executes the job based on his ability. Whether we like it or not, in general, we the people have never rejected this party.

3. Do we have all the information of public interest?
IF not, how can we Assess if we do not know all the relevant information of public interest? Are we basing on T.R.U.S.T ? Like this till forever more?

How to migrate?

David See,
Not to worry, I will not vote for pap as long as the price of HDB flats never go down. I only worry for our children who have to struggle for 30 years to pay off the debt. As you said, what quality life we singaporeans can enjoy?? PRs when they reach 55, cancel the PR, collect Cpf and go back to their own countries to retire, while old folks here have to worry abt. money not enough for retirement, high cost of medical fee. In singapore you can die but don’t get sick. I hope singaporeans can teach the pap a lesson, by voting Mah boh Tan out of office.

[...] the original post: Prices of HDB flats – press censorship? | The Online Citizen Tags: browser, fix-this, invalid-request, key-shown, please-contact, provide-the, proxy-server, [...]

Our HDB or Govt is now caught in a very embarassing situation. To admit that they are making a huge profit out of every new flat that is being sold now would make them look like a capitalist pig. Especially since we are talking about public housing and yet they still insist that it is a subsidy when actually there is none.

Using HDB’s same argument, our Great Singapore Sale should be renamed the Great Subsidy Sale since most of the goods on sale are priced below their normal market prices ie. we are being offered from 50% to 90% subsidy.

Singaporeans must be the most happy and lucky shoppers in the world !

What a Joke!

HDB is all out to make money on most poor and average citizens. What shit are they talking about subsidies when every new flat they make a hefty profit. This is one of the biggest income for HDB. And ‘karteh ayam’ mah boh tan (MBT) is having good bonus for all the billions made on the sales of new HDB.

I remember those early years when you buy a resale flat, it was the original price of the flat x 140% as the new sales price be it 3,4,or 5 rm flats. And resale flats were affordable and constant in pricing for many good years until HDB pegged it to the open market and introduced valuation to HDB flats and inflated the market sentiments
and the citizens are in this shit now. There were no valuation price earlier years.
ALL THE DOING OF HDB AND THE GOVERNMENT to give a sense of high value to the flats, forgetting that will only cause escalating cost till today.

What value do we get now, with the high cost of living and not proportionate salary
increase. Many young couples without CPF savings find it very tough to own a HDB
with such high price.

HDB should revert back to the cost x 140% selling price of resale flats and do without the valuation. These are public housing not private property. What is the rationale for doing that and cause everyone of us to chase HDB price up and up? Do we really get rich by it ? NO!. The levy imposed on buying another flat when you sell you old flat made HDB the legal extortioner for our profit money. The policies benefitted HDB only.

Many of us are left with the debt of mortgaging loan with commercial banks when HDB open the loan market to them. HDB was the sole lender of HDB loans at low interest those early years.

With all this policy changes and draconian down-the-throat rules, the citizens are the losers. HDB reaped the harvest and mah boh tan (MBT) is laughing to the bank.

ll these issues could be resolved with a two party system.
So vote for it!
All Singaporeans having been learning the hard way
because all public media are being manipulated.

Onlinecitizen

Why was my comment taken off? You have to give an explanation rather than just keep quiet. I would like to be aware of what is wrong. Thank you.

my only gripe is…if they want to peg it to market price….
don’t make all the rooms smaller…my old room in my former flat bigger than the masterbedroom i have now… and i’m still paying for the house..

and the architecture could be so much better
each estate has no identity, even hdb flat looks the same…charging market prices for something so standard and mass produced….for all the profits they’re earning…they should be able to come up with better designs…

[...] over the years” – The Temasek Review: Why peg prices of new HDB flats to market rates? – TOC: Prices of HDB flats – press censorship? – Trapper’s Swamp: Rising HDB flat prices due to “unrealistic expectations”? – [...]

What could be your retirement be like or your children’s life be like in future if the model of heavy extreme reliance on foreign labor from cheaper regions continue?

The answer is Clear and Simple.

There is only 1 Way Out.

36) Debra Hong Mui Hoong

You equate political involvement to reading blogs like TOC (which some may not think it is a political blog at all) and asking questions like “How to migrate?”

43) dave

///////…my old room in my former flat bigger than the masterbedroom i have now… ///////

Then why didn’t you stay in your old flat that is bigger?

See Leong Kit / Guest Writer: The Government must come up with more practical solutions!”

One solution is to stay with parents.
Something that many did in the past, and yet many who wanted to do so then but coud not as their parents did not own the flats, or lived in rented flats or squatters.

///////These exasperating remarks of a couple wanting to start a family sums up the genuine frustrations of young Singaporeans at the sky-high prices of public housing: “How to live in cheaper Woodlands when work is in Shenton Way and parents are in Tanah Merah? /////////

Again, staying with parents is one possible solution. Or near your parents. I know many young couples who take ownership of the situation and bought smaller flats near their parents.
Of course, there are those who want gahmen to build flats in shenton way so they can walk to work and must be cheap also. I also want. Who doesn’t.

PAP is so money hungry that I am homeless in my own country.

I can’t start a family in a house of my own.

I joined NS but no house to protect, but foreigners and PAP members (the very people who are responsible for me losing my job and possible home) to protect.

bitter…is an understatement.

angry?…I am pass that stage.

I have given up hope now. By the time they are voted out, I would be too old to start my dream family and the country would be beyond repair.

What Chen Shui Bian did is nothing compared to the losses and pain this administration has inflicted on our country. I look forward to them getting their just desserts. Luckily Singapore still has a death penalty.

I want to wait for the elections. I will not just vote them out. I will attend EVERY one of their rally speeches and laugh at them like the greedy fools they are.

It is too late for my future already. But at least I can do something for our next generation. (assuming we do not die out and get replaced by foreigners.)

30) Neutral on October 2nd, 2009 6.17 pm

I presume you are one of those who have benefited from HDB pricing policy.

However not everyone has the privilege to be like you.
Spend some time looking around in this tiny red dot, and you will realise that there are many low income citizens, families. They do not have the means to do what the higher income can do. Many of them just want a basic shelter and meet their basic needs but they are struggling with the rising costs.

When some of the more privileged are counting and rejoicing their profits from the increased valuation of their flats, the lower income group are lamenting on when will they be able to afford their roof? A point to note, even middle income families are feeling the crunch now .. much less the poor.

I know it’s of not much use to talk against these policies here but I am glad to see that TOC exists to allow us to voice out our comments, opinions, to share our experiences with the rest of the community..

Hopefully 1 day the comments here will ‘capture’ the real attention of the govt, and to make them realise they need to act on all these concerns and not continue turning a blind eye to them.

Fof those who are able to profit from the HDB policy now, your next generation may not….

I urge all to make fair comments to all classes of citiizens, from the poor to rich.

The gap between the rich and poor is getting wider and wider. The rich are able to use their monies to make more monies. Eg. Buy property as investment and rent out or sell off for profit.

The poor are getting poorer and poorer coping with the rising costs. The worse of it all, they are not able to afford their roof over theor head. They will never enjoy the privilege the rich have.

50) lynn
“The poor are getting poorer and poorer coping with the rising costs. The worse of it all, they are not able to afford their roof over theor head. They will never enjoy the privilege the rich have.”

Lynn, Thanks for understanding our plight. Heartfelt gratitude, really…

Today belongs to SPH, which belongs to the government.

’nuff said

51) RuiKen on October 4th, 2009 12.26 am

RuiKen, we are on the same boat… tat’s why I can understand the situation the poor are in… Like you, I can’t afford a roof. The sad thing is my parents do not own any flat, and I am not able to buy 1 due to the high prices coupled with the policies in place…
The prices rises so fast and so high… but my income did not increase, instead i got a pay cut…

The future is very bleak to me…

In time to come with all these rising costs, the middle income group might be driven down to the class of lower income….

As for the poor like us…… haiz..

Like many young married couples, i’m caught in this horrible predicament too. Married and living apart! My foreign friends are bewildered at this odd sitation only sinkees face!

Yes, my wife and I can max out a home loan and take a 25000-30000 renovation loan…technically, we can afford it. But it means goodbye to everything else we can spend on, and eating cheap hawker food for years.And what if one of us loses our job??

Worsening the situation is how HDB estates are becoming slums and bad places to stay in. They are getting noisier, dirtier and more chaotic. I wouldn’t touch areas like jurong west etc. So people staying in these places get their wallets squeezed AND have to endure bad living environments.

46) KopitiamApek on October 3rd, 2009 10.11 pm
“36) Debra Hong Mui Hoong

You equate political involvement to reading blogs like TOC (which some may not think it is a political blog at all) and asking questions like “How to migrate?”
”

1. What then is a POLITICAL Blog, I would like to counter as you. Sammy boy only?
- To me, any issue can be a political issue, depending on the circumstances.
- tell me, what issue Can never be a political issue? Even religious issues can become a political issue under certain circumstances. If politicians take issue with it, that is political issue.

2. If people don’t read social-political blogs, then, how can they be fully qualified as politically involved in this day and age where info is disseminated via the web in an online and realtime manner faster and more current than printed news?
Or relying on MSM is the only way to be politically involved? Of course to be politically involved need not be a politician. The key word is ‘involve’. Partially involved , fully involved etc.

I counter ask you, what to you is being Politically Involved for the layman other than the act of voting ? To vote in a meaningful way, one need access to information to make the Decision. So, how is information received? You Read. You Hear or you See or Download.

3. “How to migrate” : this one I meant it as an exclamation only. I am frustrated by the circumstances. Apathy exists in a large extent from a political point of view. I do not foresee change to come so easily although the rest of the world have changed recently.

52) X on October 4th, 2009 1.28 am
“Today belongs to SPH, which belongs to the government.”

I would like to humbly ask a technical question.
By what you said, could it be possible that IF there is a change of gov,
could it be possible for the MSM employees to be replaced as well?
On the brighter side, could this Generate JOBs for our budding new writers?
Could this lead to a new singapore?

Hi, can anybody share their views whether is it advisable to purchase a hdb flat co owned by parents and siblings?

We stay in a rented flat and upon seeing the prices of flats going up so fast, we are exploring the possibility of co owning a flat as we are afraid that the prices will sky rocket further.

But feedback and comments I have gathered were not very supportive of my intention.

I was told there will be complications when anyone of us decides to get married and we have to pay a lot of fees and cash to the withdrawing party’s cpf for his share of the monies paid for the flat. Moreover the retaining party must be eligible to take up a loan for the additional share of the loan by the withdrawing party.

I called up hdb and they too advise me that there will be complications later on.

Another policy which I heard from them is a married couple must have their names in 1 common flat. Which means should 2 singles who each owned a hdb flat with their parents respectively decides to get married, 1 party will have to sell off his flat and add his name to the spouse’s flat.

And they say this is the law that a married couple must have their names under 1 same flat.

Anyone whom knows about the above care to share??

Thanks.

Fellow S’poreans:

> The Sky-High Cost of home ownership here (both private ppty and HDB) is the MAJOR FACTOR contributing to our Ridiculous Sky-High COST OF LIVING (against our possible stagnant/declining INCOMES — with competition for jobs from “imported Foreign Talents”).

> It is INCREDIBLY STUPID & FINANCIALLY UNWISE to be paying so much essentially for a brick-and-cement “roof over your head” — with little left over to enjoy life and raise your children, and much less for your own future “retirement” and “old-age healthcare” needs.

> Since 2000, I’ve spent almost 10 years unravelling/exposing this HDB Flat Pricing SCAM — writing to various newspaper forums and even directly to Mah Bow Tan (who chose to maintain an ARROGANT DISRESPECTFUL DEAD SILENCE to all my letters — when I, as a 61-year old S’pore Citzen, have been paying numerous taxes and thus contributing towards his million-dollar salary/bonuses !!!)

> Next General Elections said to be around end of this year or within first 3 months of 2010.

> So, please do your little bit to help yourselves by forwarding my above-posted “simple-to-understand” letter to as many people as possible (asking them to do the same) —
to create MAXIMUM AWARENESS amongst S’pore Voters and make this important matter an ELECTION ISSUE.

56) clueless

Home ownership offers several advantages over renting. It can be a good investment that increases in value over time, especially in land scarce SG.

co ownership of HDB flats by parents and siblings can become sticky.
not advisable.

if your parents have sufficient CPF, it is cleaner to buy using their names only.
if you are the only child, getting married soon, no harm to buy a flat with them, provided you want to live with them Otherwise buy jointly with your spouse.
If many siblings, not advisable, as there will be future complications.

And it will be helpful to be aware of the difference in
Joint ownership & Tenancy in Common to save you a lot of headache in future.

Joint ownership
means that if there are two or more owners on the asset and one owner dies, then the surviving owner or owners will continue to own the asset and the estate and heirs at law of the deceased owner will receive absolutely nothing. All that the surviving owners will need to do to remove the deceased owner’s name from the asset is to show a death certificate or record a new deed which indicates that one of the joint tenants has died.

Tenancy in Common
If property is owned by two or more people as tenants in common, then each owner will hold a percentage of ownership interest in the property. The percentages don’t have to be equal and are determined by how much each owner contributes to the purchase of the property.

For example, if a piece of real estate costs $1.000,000 and owner A contributes $700,000 and owner B contributes $300,000, then owner A will hold a 70% interest as a tenant in common and owner B will hold a 30% interest as a tenant in common. When owner A later dies, her 70% interest will pass to whomever she chooses by her Last Will, or to her heirs at law if she doesn’t have an estate plan. Owner B, however, won’t be entitled to receive any part of A’s 70% interest (unless owner B is named in A’s Last Will is A’s heir at law).

57) DavidSeeLeongKit

At 61, you would have bought your flat for a song umpteen years ago, and sold the old flat and make a bundle, and upgraded to a new one many years back. Maybe you would have even done it a few rounds.

Good for you if you did.

Here again, provision of public housing is another essential function of a government, just like education and medicine. So the so-called “market subsidy” is a disservice to the citizens, no matter how flamboyant they want to term it.

What is a subsidy? Governments everywhere provide consumption subsidies in a number of ways: by actually giving away a good or service, providing use of government assets, property, or services at LOWER THAN THE COST of provision, or by providing economic incentives (CASH SUBSIDIES) to purchase or use such goods.

Public housing is an essential national service, just like education and medicine. I see no difference between our state of affairs with that of a laissez-faire which seeks to minimize or eliminate aspects of government intervention. If these basic functions can be left to the forces of demand and supply, then why do we need a government?

56) clueless

Transfer of ownership of HDB flats is expensive (legal cost, etc) cumbersome, takes forever and is a real pain. So plan carefully whom you want to buy your flat with.

clueless #56

The best thing is to take the advice of David See, i.e. to tell your relatives, friends, etc to vote against the PAP.

The PAP government owns 80% of the land in Singapore, the interest rate is kept at an artificially low level 0.2% to favour the property tycoons and banking magnates.

Once the PAP loses one or two GRCs in the coming election, you can be SURE life for Singaporeans will start to improve.

Apartment purchase prices per square meter in major cities, in US dollars. Prices are indicative and they apply to existing apartments of 120 square meters in city centers.

Rank City, Country Price
——- ————————- ——–
1 London (Prime), United Kingdom 24,250
2 Upper Manhattan, New York, USA 15,933
3 Moscow, Russia 15,531
4 London (Other Luxury), UK 15,202
5 Paris, France 13,826
6 Hong Kong 12,599
7 Tokyo, Japan 11,870
8 Singapore 11,800
9 Mumbai, India 10,222
10 Barcelona, Spain 9,871
11 Geneva, Switzerland 7,534
12 Zurich, Switzerland 7,376
13 Sydney, Australia 7,085
14 Madrid, Spain 7,021
15 Turks and Caicos Islands 5,724
16 Tel Aviv, Israel 5,021
17 Toronto, Canada 4,737
18 Auckland, New Zealand 4,438
19 Warsaw, Poland 4,383
20 Cayman Islands 4,234
21 Dubai, United Arab Emirates 4,066
22 Bahamas 3,998
23 Montreal, Canada 3,779
24 Munich, Germany 3,613
25 Saint Petersburg, Russia 3,417
26 Shanghai, China 3,318
27 Trinidad and Tobago 3,174
28 Athens, Greece 3,170
29 Frankfurt, Germany 2,843
30 Bangkok, Thailand 2,819
31 Cape Town, South Africa 2,784
32 Berlin, Germany 2,462
33 Beijing, China 2,282
34 New Delhi, India 2,107
35 Sofia, Bulgaria 2,032
36 Marrakech, Morocco 1,973
37 Manila, Philippines 1,969
38 Istanbul, Turkey 1,867
39 Panama City, Panama 1,783
40 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia 1,400
41 Johannesburg, South Africa 1,376
42 Amman, Jordan 1,261
43 San Jose, Costa Rica 1,255
44 Beirut, Lebanon 1,237
45 Jakarta, Indonesia 1,068
46 Bangalore, India 980
47 Cairo, Egypt 569

SG a city state with no hinterland, no sprawling suburban nor countryside for the city to creep into as it expands, the prices can only become higher.

take a look. don’t just complain.
Half the world — nearly three billion people — live on less than two dollars a day.
The GDP (Gross Domestic Product) of the poorest 48 nations (i.e. a quarter of the world’s countries) is less than the wealth of the world’s three richest people combined.
Nearly a billion people entered the 21st century unable to read a book or sign their names.
Less than one per cent of what the world spent every year on weapons was needed to put every child into school by the year 2000 and yet it didn’t happen.
1 billion children live in poverty (1 in 2 children in the world). 640 million live without adequate shelter, 400 million have no access to safe water, 270 million have no access to health services. 10.6 million died in 2003 before they reached the age of 5 (or roughly 29,000 children per day).

58) KopitiamApek on October 4th, 2009 6.43 pm

Thanks KopitiamApek for the explanation.

My mum is a widow without a cent in her cpf. My parents were uneducated, poor and therefore did not have any savings at all.

I am a 31 years old female, unattached at the moment. With my single income, I cannot afford to buy a flat with my mum, to make things worse, with my mum’s age, I cannot loan to the maximum no. of years.

That’s why I need to add my brother’s name in order to loan a higher amount to purchase a flat. I started to ballot for a new hdb flat about 2 years ago but was not successful and just watch the prices sky rocket.

But i am really worried about the complications later should any of us want to get married.

Now I am stuck here not knowing what to do.

65) clueless

I am sorry to read about your family’s predicament. But please do not despair. If it is of any comfort to you at all, can I share with you that I too was from a similar situation, albeit a deeper hole, but I did climb myself out of that hole (not by complaining but by bullheaded determination, lots of positive thinking and planning) and I am sure you can too.

The tenure of your loan will be based on the age of the youngest joint applicant, as such you mum age is not an issue.
If your income is sufficient to apply, apply with only your mum, your bro as an occupier.
If you must have your brother to be a co-applicant, put your mum only as an occupier.

Do consider the resale market. The new flats are not cheap anymore and the locations are nothing to shout about, unless we are talking about Pinnacle, which I personally rather buy a condo than to pay for that place at that price.

Resale gives you some advantages over new flats. Shorter waiting. Certainty of location, no reno cost if you can accept as-it-is condtion (and some are pretty well renovated) and the reno cost being part of the purchase price is paid by CPF not cold cash. Amenities are already there, whereas newtowns you wait long long. Transport and time savings over the umpteens years you will live there is a huge amount of savings to be considered, and tpt cost will keep going up, whereas the flat price you paid is cast in stone.

Get a good housing agent to search for a good affordable flat. Relying only on ST ads is not too effective nor efficient. The housing market is not homogenously price uniform, you will be suprised at the gems available out there (and they do not cost like a gem) if you look carefully and hard enough.

Start looking soon, but prices are still steep now, it should start to taper off in the years ahead, meanwhile you gain experience in your hosue search while waiting.

And 4 years time (if you are not hitched yet then), you are entitled to apply as a single.

People panic when price start to rocket, and rush in to buy fearing it will go higher. But that same action action is what is feeding the price rocket. So do not feed it. Believe me, it will come down. Buy when no one is buying, don’t by when everyone is buying.

Good luck

65) KopitiamApek on October 4th, 2009 10.42 pm

Kopitiamapek, the hdb rules have changed few years back. They no longer take the youngest joint applicant’s age.

Now they take use 65 years minus each applicant’s age, then they take the average to determine the max. no of years.

For eg, my mum is 61 years old, I am 31 years old, we can only loan up to 19 years and the amount of loan I can take up is in fact reduced due to this too.

Even if I managed to get a loan, my cpf contribution wil not be enough to cover the monthly instalments, I need to cough up at least 50% of the monthly nstalments in cash.

This is 1 of the policies that makes it even harder for people to own flats.

65) KopitiamApek on October 4th, 2009 10.42 pm

Kopitiamapek, the hdb rules have changed few years back. They no longer take the youngest joint applicant’s age.

Now they take use 65 years minus each applicant’s age, then they take the average to determine the max. no of years.

For eg, my mum is 61 years old, I am 31 years old, we can only loan up to 19 years and the amount of loan I can take up is in fact reduced due to this too.

Even if I managed to get a loan, my cpf contribution wil not be enough to cover the monthly instalments, I need to cough up at least 50% of the monthly nstalments in cash.

This is 1 of the policies that makes it even harder for people to own flats.

To buy resale flats now, we need cash for the COV, an agent told me I need to fork out at least 20k COV for a 3 rm resale flat even at Jurong West area, Not to mention the prime locations, don’t dare to dream.

All this is the result of the PRs snatching up the resale flats. They pay high cash for the COV to secure the unit.

Why are hdb flats so expensive ? Among other reasons, the bonuses paid to HDB staff may be dependent on the profits made by HDB. Very clever. Make money from the people and pay yourself undisclosed huge bonuses, under the guise of performance bonuses.

Hi I am new here. I saw my comments at #30 got quite a lot of negative rating. What do the ratings here mean? How do people rate?

Dun you think what I said is the real world – a financial hub only attracts rich people. It is purely a supply and demand issue.

I hope you young chaps Dun mix the issues. We must acknowledge that the Govt has done well. On the other hand, they must do more to help the poor and middle income to have a roof and healthcare.

Please pardon me if I had cause any unhappiness with my comments.

KopitiamApek is very helpful, however he surprised me with his comment at #59. Mr See and many other Bloggers were and are not complaining about HDB Housing because of themselves.

You surely must have known that many of the Bloggers are high income professionals, highly intellectual individuals who have found some inconsiderate policies, of which housing is the most exploitative against the citizens. They were/are highlighting the faulty policies for the sakes of the people, government and the country.

KopitiamApek, the way You made your comment shows that You are a cold calculative pragmatic person very much like most of the cold blooded, heartless policy makers.

To 70) WONDER on October 5th, 2009 1.14 am,

I found Kopitiam’s views different; irregardless, if I agree with them or not; except his occasional outburst : ). I always value his views, as he provide alternate “views” to “balance” things up. It makes me ponder, think deeper, look from another angle; and I believe it’s a voice that I will miss if he no longer contributes.

Anyway, not everyone agreeing with the policy is pro-PAP; nor disagreeing with the PAP is anti-PAP.

If you believes that only the “truth” prevails and we “agree to disagree”, you probably will see things a little differently. Here, I learn and I grow and hope to be a responsible citizen, socially and politically.

As the saying goes, don’t let the emotions get the better of you. The government is only a part of the problem/solution in your life; it’s you whom ultimately decides your life.
Note: Please don’t increase my life challenges by voting in the “proven” incompetent ones again; thank you.

PS: I know a lot of bloggers are “frustrated” (me too with the CPF life thingy) with the recent policies imposed; way off the “balance” in my opinion…; but you got a “vote” and GE is coming soon… take your shot in what you believe… and if things don’t work out and you got the option to leave for a while / permanently, consider them… if not, stick around…. change is the only constant… I believe in human nature to strive for the better… things will work out one way or another…

KopitiamApek is just trying to help. Unless anyone of you can make HDB change their policies, if not, you have to learn to find alternatives. There is a Chinese saying called ‘ shi zhe sheng chun’ (pinyin) meaing those who can adapt are able to survive.

Yup, agree too, Apek is trying to help, and to be truthful…he is someone who has discuss both side of a view, which is way better then people who pops in here and criticize others for 1-sided view. Apek is different, as he is constructive, not mindless…

and sometimes when you read his view, first implication will be “cold-blooded” or “unreasonable” but thinking about it, somehow it fits into the overall picture…and it is not as bad as first reading will make it out to be..

To 69) Neutral on October 5th, 2009 12.40 am

Hi I am new here. I saw my comments at #30 got quite a lot of negative rating. What do the ratings here mean? How do people rate?
>> Negative means they don’t agree with your comments. Everyone got a choice to agree/disgree… or don’t do anything at all.

Dun you think what I said is the real world – a financial hub only attracts rich people. It is purely a supply and demand issue.
>> You’re mixing up a public organisation with a private one. Who’s chairing the organisation? A minister. A public organisation is not about “profit”; it’s about help the people; poor ones in particular.

I hope you young chaps Dun mix the issues.
>> You sounds “young”.

We must acknowledge that the Govt has done well.
>> Which area your mean? In the past, maybe, now?
>> You mean HDB? Lower income in the range of earning $2-3k has to work 25-30 years to pay off the HDB and has nothing for retirement? You call that good?

On the other hand, they must do more to help the poor and middle income to have a roof and healthcare.
>> Everything is increasing… sigh…

Please pardon me if I had cause any unhappiness with my comments.
>> Stick around… it’s a good place to know what’s happening in singapore…

68) clueless

////, the hdb rules have changed few years back. They no longer take the youngest joint applicant’s age. ///////

Thanks. I learnt a new thing today.
I believe they did that to correct (maybe a bit overcorrected) the archiac and ridiculous policy whereby an 99 old man/woman can still take a 25 year loan. They introduced these changes to ensure pple do not overextent themselves, which many did in the days of rapid gains when one makes a bundle selling off their old flat and buying a new cheap one from HDB. When the bubble burst, many got stuck as the old flat do not featch the price they hope for.

With this new (to me) rule , the best strategy in your situation would be to go buy jointly with your bro. A longer tenure makes huge diff in your monthly instalment. Find out all you can of possible hurdles you need to untangle should you get married. But keep your mum as occupier. And please stay with her if you can, being old and lonely is no fun.

///This is 1 of the policies that makes it even harder for people to own flats.///
Ya. It is a blunt instrument.

////To buy resale flats now, we need cash for the COV, an agent told me I need to fork out at least 20k COV for a 3 rm resale flat even at Jurong West area, Not to mention the prime locations, don’t dare to dream.////

see last para of my post #66.
It is not a dream. It is about timing. Be patient. Hover the sky and soar like an eagle to have a bird eyes view of what is really happening and swoop down for your price catch when you see one. And you will get a good catch.

///// All this is the result of the PRs snatching up the resale flats. They pay high cash for the COV to secure the unit. /////
Sorry, but I do not subscribe to this “victim-mode” of thinking. Mostly are still our own dear fellow Singaporeans.

69) Gigi

////Why are hdb flats so expensive ? Among other reasons, the bonuses paid to HDB staff may be dependent on the profits made by HDB.//////

I am sorry to tell you that is not true.

72) Dumb and dumber

Thank you.,

///// except his occasional outburst : ). ////

“Woman, please let me explain, this little child trapped inside a man” _ John Lennon “Woman”

74) Yamamoto

Thank you

73) loop

Thank you.

“Change what you can change. And accept what you cannot change.”
yet bearing in mind it is a dynamic situation, do go back and check out once in a while what cannot be change that now can be changed, like after a “freak” election : )

71) WONDER

//////KopitiamApek is very helpful, however he surprised me with his comment at #59. Mr See and many other Bloggers were and are not complaining about HDB Housing because of themselves./////

I really cannot be sure of that, can you?

//////You surely must have known that many of the Bloggers are high income professionals, highly intellectual individuals who have found some inconsiderate policies, of which housing is the most exploitative against the citizens. They were/are highlighting the faulty policies for the sakes of the people, government and the country./////

am I supposed to be able to know so much about them from just a pseudonym? the nicks?
I like to believe the commenters form a wide spectrum of people from all level of intellect, all income levels, all levels of maturity- not necessarily correlated to their age : )

/////KopitiamApek, the way You made your comment shows that You are a cold calculative pragmatic person very much like most of the cold blooded, heartless policy makers. /////
I disagree but respect your view of me. (let me drown myself in a barrel of beer, cry for a few days, waaaaaah)

singaporeans, why complain?
You make me sick.
1 finger point at HDB, the rest of your fingereds finger back yourselves.
Get my drift?

No? Ok, here it is : This is the life you have chosen for yourselves.

HK liao.

KopitiamApek,

Thank You very much for your Response #79, much obliged!

Let us just let sleeping dogs, well; sleep.

Found your interpretations of the Vulgar Receipt very intriguing, that’s really thinking out of the box.

May have different views and ideas with You from time to time, however please be informed that it’s nice to have You around.

The Chinaman living 2 floors above me has scarcely lived in his jumbo flat for 3 months before reselling it…for a cool 50k profit…

Makes you cringe, doesn’t it? They are speculating and digging gold while locals can’t afford flat.

#82,

If PRs come here not to do NS but to enjoy the benefits, this could be a nightmare:

scenario:

many rich sons and daughters from china come here study, enjoy, get work and become PE and enjoy PR benefits that is about the same as being a citizen.

they allowed to buy flats. So, they buy and buy. sell and sell.
Hooray, property bubble? Before this ,IF they sell and cash out and retire back in china, how? what if many PRs do not have intention to convert to citizen here but to enjoy what is given to them? a lot of IFs.

above is just a nightmare i had. not sure in reality has it already happened?

with higher flat price, the cpf also need more money put in there. Like this, i think our future is gonna be brighter than ever. My views never take into account rich people. Rich people do not find anything expensive anywhere in the world. So, they logically are out of the equation. Else, they are not considered rich.

I ENVY the PRs.

. They come, they enjoyed, they conquered.
. When they return home for good, they can withdraw all their CPF and a Home is waiting for them already.

. Singaporeans do not have another citizenship. PRs do. On Standby.
. They work here and live here much like a citizen.
. In addition, they welcomed with red carpet. regarded like a talent.

. singaporeans who want to withdraw everycent of their cpf need to 1st get another citizenship. PRs do not need to do so. They have one on standby.

. Whatever future sg becomes, no matter how bad or expensive, they no worry. They no worry if property becomes super expensive. They may like it actually since that would mean highest profit from property sale. It could mean Retirement$.

Is the model flawed? I wonder only. Dun flame me.

There is no need for PRs to wait years even if no money to buy flat.
If buy-sell of flat is treated like an investment, young PRs without the money need not even loan from banks here. they can get all their family tree together and all combine to invest in a flat here and when they sell it, they all get a share of the profit. So, they could even buy private properties as soon as possible.

how long to get a piece of PR certificate? i heard was it 3 months?

did the proud china national singapore pr who took part in the china national day parade bot any property here? i do not know.

The price Sinkaporean is paying for entrusting the PAP regime to rule the country is being paid in so many ways. We need a gahment that listen and put Sinkaporeans interest first not the ruling regime. Use our vote wisely before it is taken away. This is our only last constitutional right that we still enjoy. Use it to vote PAP out or else we may have to use other mean to effect change in our country. 50 years is a long time, and it is time to have a new ruling party to run tha country. we could see more threats coming out of LKY’s speeches but we will ignore it and do what is good for us and the country. It is time to take back our rights and send LKY to permanent retirement together with his famiLee. He once said we have too small a pool of gene in the country and now he limited it even further to just his family. You be the judge. The motto ” do as I said and not want I do.” Is this what we need in our leader? He had his glory and good time and it is time we the citizen take it all back and remind him we do have brain and capable of thinking for ourself and we had enough of his nepotism and legalised curruption. The PAP regime must be voted out for good. Let us all stand together to vote this tyrant out and sent hime to pernament retirement. It would a fitting parting gift from all SinKaporean. The country might rise up again with a new ruling party. We have nothing to loose and everything to gain. Spread the word to all our family and friends and remind everybody come general election.

If new citizens are those who like the way singapore is run or the leaders and these are the reasons they come here, then by deduction does it mean they will never lose IF majority , just 51% is consist of new citizens? Add those who never support any other parties would this mean eternal rule? Factor in people who not migrate and the number of dissent will drop even further resulting in a perfect situation?

now there is so many new citizens and prs and foreigners already. As time ticks away, how many more will come and how many more citizens will leave?

This must be uncalibrated and pure coincidence?

Actually, its impossible for a native citizen to choose to be born in any country.
Though the mother can. But the fact remains, a new born cannot and will never be able to choose where he wants to be born and thus his citizenship.
He can only choose a citizenship After he becomes an adult.

when u are born somewhere , you are the citizen of somewhere. You cannot choose.

correction : Factor in people who Migrate and the number of dissent will drop even further resulting in a perfect situation?

83) WONDER
Thank You too.

/////Found your interpretations of the Vulgar Receipt very intriguing, that’s really thinking out of the box. ////

hope you enjoyed the read. It’s out of the box now it’s moderated out of TOC : ).
my moderated posts are in facebook of the same name.

89) Shawn Michaels

Boundaries and countries are man made, result of war, politics and historical goofed-ups.

“Imagine there’s no countries
It isn’t hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace ” – John Lennon “Imagine”

86) Sumiko

I have heard of such cases:

1) Foreigner studying in our polytechnics, are being offered PR status even before they graduate.

2) A foreigner working in an accounts related position being offered PR status within 1 week upon starting work here.

I was shocked at the rate that they were given PR status especially the eg. 2 which I quoted. These are truths as they are the ones who told me about it.

I wonder what our govt is doing… distributing PRs like distributing toilet paper…

Makes me wanna puke. Sorry to be crude.

76) KopitiamApek on October 5th, 2009 9.59 pm 69) Gigi

////Why are hdb flats so expensive ? Among other reasons, the bonuses paid to HDB staff may be dependent on the profits made by HDB.//////

“I am sorry to tell you that is not true”.

How come KopitiamApek is so sure ? Is he a HDB Staff ? Ex Staff ?

my EA apt would value of more than 500K in woodland now and i bought at only 211k more than 10 years ago. you may think i should be celebrating instead of worrying with such value which is to me is false and market make up by whom you guy all know.

i am still STRUGGLING TO pay the instalments through till probably 60 years old or more. YOU CALLED THAT A QUALITY LIFE? so what if i sell mine now, am i going to another one which costs higher and lesser times to pay up?

i am worry cos how would my kids maintain the standard living simply by paying how much higher for hdb flats inflated by some bloody a**hole minister who think that money is made of papers. i am fear of the time when it going to shoot up at least 1 million dollars value for hdb flats and it will HAPPENED with all these a**hole high flyer elites minister in controlled.

i can only say…God Blessed!

my chinaman friends who are PRs and most of them are having in mind of making 100k and more and retired back home when it comes.

so singaporean, in case you are aware of, they are real and threat to our fellowships. one more thing, just yesterday one chinaman was telling me that he hopes to make money by selling in few years time and go back for retirement as he can see that singapore is f**king too expensive to survive in long time.

Sorry Leong Kit,

Frankly speaking, I have to agree that your article are illogical and misleading. It seems that you imagine up some theory to explain your observation. Your articles are snub, because it is illogical, misleading and shows an obvious lack of knowledge. I would have snub it also if I am the editor.

Btw: You suggestions sucks big time. I would suggest you concentrate on finding a flat that suits, rather than spending your energy complaining and trying to give suggest on how to manage things that you do not even have a basic understanding.

94) Post #76

Rather unusual pseudonym you got. By what the heck.

You asked “How come KopitiamApek is so sure ? Is he a HDB Staff ? Ex Staff ? ”
I ask “How come you so sure it is the truth?”
Do you need to be staff or ex-staff of anything to know anything?

97) stanzza

amazing your post is not moderated. I wrote some posts that were a lot tamer that critique the writers and my post get moderated from cyberspace into deep space. Watch this one disappear also.

98)KopitiamApek

Thanks. If any post should disappear, I would say this entire article should be removed. It had already been rejected due to it’s poor quality of analysis which is further based on misformation and imagined theory from what I see. Even 1 min is also too much time spent on this when I first see it. I merely commented, seeing that ppl could beconfused, such as thinking that these are facts and correct, and that people snub it to hide something . Just like to highlight something:

In the past, people think that the world is flat and establish theory and reasoning that is based on it. Such as a ship will drop if you travel to the edge of the world. Now, obviously now with knowledge everyone knows that earth is spherical. But without knowledge, people do see that theory as convincing, because it explains their daily (maybe also narrow) observation. While observation and thinking is good, and is the basis of new discovery, the difference between scientist and article as such is that scientist keeps an open mind that their theory may not be true and seek to 1st disprove it, then prove it. Don’t think your imagined theory as a truth.

Further on, the things stated is just like telling ppl in 21st centuary that the earth is flat based on someone’s observation and telling us what we should do! When we know it is spherical in shape. Not only the knowledge is lacking, the analysis is also illogical even if the information provided is assume to be true.

I merely noted that emotions and unpleasantness can be stirred up by such misinformation judging from the comment, thus commented. Don’t really care if my post is deleted or not. Understand that people are unhappy, thats a fact. But still we have to think and analyze clearly.

Btw, apologise to everyone if my comments are harsh (but honest) =). I won’t be spending anymore time on this. Good Luck to you all! I hope you find your dream home soon, now with more BTO projects.

101) stanzza

we need more like you in TOC to put things in perspective.

Stanzza, tell the world your party affiliation.
End of story

104) Lee Humpty

Have one to be party affliated to have views?
It is not an either/or situation.
It is not black or white, but a cotinuum of different shades of grey.
Let the story continues.

101) stanzza

interestingly we are now discussing if our posts will be deleted,
and the tile of this topic looks awfully apt
: )

Sorry guys, I am back for 1 last post as I had some surprised finding. I was searching under the author name online as I had trouble opening his 1st letter to Today and found some related other post…

1. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sg_Review/message/2242
2: http://www.sgpolitics.net/?p=3095#more-3095
3: http://disgruntledsporean.blogspot.com/2006/04/critique-of-pap-govt-by-mr-see-leong.html

Judge for yourself..

“A plate of chicken rice cost $3 in HDB coffeeshops and $20 at hotel coffeehouses. ”

If the $20 chicken rice is recognized to be much tastier (because of the chef’s skill) by the majority of people or has special expensive ingredients, it is called capitalism.

If it is the same quality as the coffeeshop one, its called stupid consumerism.

107) Omega Lee

Consumer behaviour is highly illogical as Mr Spock will say.
The $20 plate of chicken rice is not necessarily 7 times better than the $3 plate.
The more expensive the car you buy the smaller it gets.
A $50,000 watch tells the same time albeit more accurately, but by how much?
A Prada handbag functions for exactly the same purpose as a $5 lelong handbag.
What drive this highly illogical behaviour is branding.
That make a product cost so much more than its worth because they have managed to convince the consumers to believe that is is worth that much more.

I am trying to find a home to build my nest now.

5 room 400k+
4 room 350k+
3 room around 300k

I started paying attention to prices since 1 year ago and prices have kept escalating…despite the economic downturn. In 1 year, prices seem to have gone up 10-25 percent.

My heart is really turning cold at the prices. I truly feel the PAP will not stop until they drain us of every cent we have.

Even if we are willing to take loans, HDB is no longing providing lower interest loans as it used to. Guess they feel that they could use the money for their bonuses instead.

Even if I am willing to settle in a ulu ulu place, I end up losing much subsidies for not living near parents. Am I better off?

Sometimes, I look around me, and I feel like crying. I feel compelled to join everyone in the mad scramble for money like the incumbent is doing…and run away from this melting-pot as soon as we possibly can.

Perspectives or Propaganda?

By all MEANS,
throw in more statistics;
compare apple with orange;
divert attention;

To an END,
negating the social security role of a government.

Go on and duplicate the regime of our Main Stream Media here, online. One only needs a heart to just simply go back to the basics of ‘GOVERNMENT’.

“I merely noted that emotions and unpleasantness can be stirred up by such misinformation judging from the comment, thus commented. Don’t really care if my post is deleted or not. Understand that people are unhappy, thats a fact. But still we have to think and analyze clearly.”

Then have one super-know-all employed at public expense (ain’t going to cost millions) to correct such misinformation lah.

Analyze clearly ? Just provide the facts (transparency) and let people (give them the necessary education) draw their own conclusion.

“I started paying attention to prices since 1 year ago and prices have kept escalating…despite the economic downturn. In 1 year, prices seem to have gone up 10-25 percent.

My heart is really turning cold at the prices.”

Let me give you some professional non-emotional reply (trying to parrot someone), we will always keep it affordable.

http://www.3in1kopitiam.com
From: makapa 2:46 am
To: ALL (1 of 5)
21575.1

http://www.chipengseng.com.sg/administration/NewsReports/4844a959-7d98-4594-b6ed-6ff2eebb9b5e_CESCL_Results_Presentation_1HFY2009_12Aug09.pdf

HDB Contract at Sembawang

• 471 units, contract value $49 million

=> $104k Per Unit

The Pinnacle@Duxton

• 1,848 units in seven 50-storey residential blocks

• Contract value $289 million

=> $156k Per Unit

• HDB Contract at Queenstown

• 1,394 units w/facilities, contract value $188 million

=> $135k Per Unit

• HDB Contract at Sengkang

• 698 units with facilities, contract value $124 million

=> $178k Per Unit

• HDB Design & Build Contract at Punggol West

• 729 units with facilities, contract value $156 million

=> $214k Per Unit

Please read this article
http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-GreenBusiness/idUSTRE59B2OX20091012
Declining population may not really be bad. At least the environment benefits from it.

HDB flat are never hot, Just our useless government under built, BTO is a stupid scheme like ERP.

If the HDB were to go back to ‘cost price’ based approach , will we see drop in the market price of HDB resale too? Buyers both new and resale will be happy.
Will sellers who see a decline in their HDB resale price be happy too?
I believed many (even those who post here) has profited from selling of their HDB based on the market price approach..the same goes with COV .What an irony!!.

Kick the papies out. And the sooner the better.