It is the Pacific Ocean you try to swim across.

The bedroom is a private domain and it should stay that way. In martial disputes there is no angels nor devils, just contesting minds and living habits clouded too many stresses of modern living.

Is that not enough??

post #48 on October 29th, 2009 8.35 pm

if women 1 2 please their husbands in ways that is taboo (this itself is subjective) as an act of love, you said that “I would risk my life for love.”, why are some people who do not know the couple raise the hoohaa?

if someone close to me is a victim of such an abuse, that does not mean i will support this petition. it would be my failing to let personal issues cloud my judgement.

if you hold the opinion that there is little point being objective about a petition with serious implications on marriage & all it entails & feel there is nothing wrong with it, you should seriously consider not wearing your heart on your sleeve for your own sake. dun make a fool out of yourself (& indirectly the petition).

hmmm, you chose your cat or were you forced to adopt it? like parenthood & most marriages in S’pore today, its a personal choice. a decision made to commit to a shared way of life. with that in mind, how can criminalising rape with no regard to marriage be any right?

loopholes not ironed out in this petition is a valid ground not to go ahead with it until the loopholes are covered. in similiar people will sound alarm bells if a women chooses an abusive husband-to-be. its insane.

thanks for letting (not just) me know you are a woman. being objective does not mean a post is cold, calculated & exacting, this again may be your personal opinion. maybe its just you who have yet to find the balance between the heart & the mind right (you have others for company). ;)

“if there are sick women will will put her dignity or life on the line for love…” – they are not sick at all :) I would risk my life for love. Who wouldn’t? You?

“hence, you are supporting the petition due to sympathy & not merit.” – would you not support this petition with your heart if someone close to you was a victim?

“or are you some feminist who indulge too much time reading up stuff on attrocities against women in general over the centuries? therefore built a skewed image of women (not wives) being constantly abused?” – I mentioned “many”, not all. I am a woman and I’m very aware of what my friends, relatives, friends of relatives are going through.

Sorry, but this seems more like an argument than a discussion. This is an open forum/comment box, not academic banter. The point of comments is to provide a variation of responses, biased or unbiased, subjective or objective, statistical or feeling-based.

If being terribly objective means so much to you (which I feel like I’m being forced into), then I shouldn’t be even commenting :) I am writing straight from my heart and seriously, there’s nothing wrong with it imho.

I already mentioned that there are black sheep in whichever gender, and I do admit that some females can be quite ruthless, but my stand is clear: This is still no excuse to, because of a small number of black sheep, NOT protect the weaker gender.

I’ve a cat, she bites me everytime and ignores me, but I still love her and take care of her because it’s just human nature to want to protect something or someone. Parents care for their children no matter how rebellious they are. Likewise, both husband and wife should care for one another and should something go wrong, it’s a gentle goodbye and good wishes. This is unconditional love.

Violence against a wife or woman is simply wrong, it’s not human. If you’re still concerned about the petition having loopholes, my personal stand is ^^ read above until you get it.

It is disturbing to see an increasing amount of netizens insisting that every post be objective and to tackle every subject with no feeling, no heart, no warmth. This is my personal defense on your very polite requests for me to be more objective. I can’t do it.

“are you fighting for a petition against injustice or fighting for fighting’s sake?” – look at yourself in the mirror :)

Hope this made your e-peen slightly larger.

post #46 on October 29th, 2009 8.08 am

if there are sick women will will put her dignity or life on the line for love, there too will be the male equivalent. so why such a gender biased petition? you said it yourself in the previous post, the possibility of men being sexually assualted is too far off from 50/50.

from your several posts, it seems you do sympathise more with the female gender for reasons i do not know. your opinion that most wives fall into the stereotype you portray. hence, you are supporting the petition due to sympathy & not merit. this alone is a cause for concern.

as for being blind to reality & being fooled to think that they are happy, in this day & age, with more ways to communicate, how isolated can 1 be from reality? more so for local women where relatives are never too far away. how signs of mental or psychological health can go undetected. members of her immediate family should be at the frontline (social issues), in cases of any work related mishaps, the immediate family members are the 1st people to contact, no?

by the way, you have not made clear if depression you mentioned is a result of rape or was it already present. while there are implications of trauma & depression arising from any kind of violence including rape, are there no such provisions provided for in the current legal framework? yes or no?

////women have always been on the losing end centuries ago all over the world… rape of Nanjing…Bosnian War…HIV as a weapon in Congo..comfort women… the list never ends…////

eh, can you be more objective? or are you some feminist who indulge too much time reading up stuff on attrocities against women in general over the centuries? therefore built a skewed image of women (not wives) being constantly abused?

there are more men who are more sensitive to gender equality & its related issues today, but you are confusing empathy with sympathy. not to mention threading off course by bringing up rape of Nanjing, Bosnian war, HIV in Congo, etc…. which is entirely not related to marital rape itself. :P who is more in need of areality check here?

what bothers me is that, you are sensitive to women’s needs & rights alone but is numb to the sensitivities raised about the loopholes that is open to exploitation? are you fighting for a petition against injustice or fighting for fighting’s sake? 8)

You would understand what I mean if you ever meet a lady who loved you so much and would do anything to be together with you, even if it means subjecting herself to violence, as long as you are happy (especially past the passion stage, into the committal stage of marriage) .

She loses all her friends but she doesn’t mind so long her husband is fulfilled, she thinks that her life is “complete” just be being with her husband, hoping that he will one day change for the better. This could also point to why she has no one to turn to.

Trust me, there are many marriages like that. That’s why divorce rates of our parents’ and grandparents’ generation is low precisely because of “over-tolerating”.

This is “Doesn’t know why she’s living or who she’s living for anymore.” What awareness groups/NTR can do is to use a little force to separate her from this reliance and bring her to reality, that hey, perhaps there is so much more to life than surviving your abusive husband. Sometimes anyone of us can be trapped in a well, blinding us, thinking that we are happy. We just need that few helping hands to once in a while, give us that reality check.

Although the petition is about law, it’s also good to note the social and psychological causes of marital rape.

While I enjoy the pragmatic viewpoints raised here, I’d also like to call for a little more empathy on the subject matter as it’s violence against women we’re talking about here, something which women have always been on the losing end centuries ago all over the world… rape of Nanjing…Bosnian War…HIV as a weapon in Congo..comfort women… the list never ends… and now sexual violence is happening even within marriages!

I thank the many men out there who are increasingly becoming more sensitive towards women’s issues :) It’s definitely pushing Singapore forward to being a more modern, open-minded nation without compromising the ability to feel for others.

Whether people vote or not vote for the petition doesn’t bother me. The most important thing is still awareness and recognise what people are fighting for, the fact that they read through it and are also reading this discussion board.

post #41 on October 27th, 2009 10.41 pm

pardon me for backtracking alittle & replying to your earlier post.

////She won’t seek help because:////

1) do married women loose the ability to be independant after marriage? they cannot think for themselves? lol…

2) you are saying that wives lack reasoning skills again, & if she does not 1 2 leave what can you (or anyone who really 1 2 help her do?) do? isn’t education the key? as for “divorce is really bad”, the answer to a social problem like stigma is education, not legislation. no?

3) if her life is in danger shouldn’t she get police to help? unless she is locked up in an underground cell with no means of communicating with the world outside.

4) “Doesn’t know why she’s living or who she’s living for anymore.” please explain the link to marital rape. “Doesn’t trust anyone.” so how will this petition help her in this case?

5) “Humiliation”, being accused of rape is no small matter. & for men to be accused, society largely views such men as guilty before the verdict is out.

perhaps you should indicatwe if the depression is a result of the rape. i do not 1 2 jump into conclusion based on false assumptions.

point (1), (2) partially since there are several issues raised & (5) being opinion piece could be put forth with objectively. point (3) is clearly a personal safety issue, i believe are existing avenues to seek help if need be.

as for fear, changing the law will not remove it, though it may for some. but as with most fears, education is the solution.

////I agree with some of the points raised regarding the possibility of a woman taking advantage of this act, should it be implemented.

However the odds of this happening vs men sexually abusing women is like 1:1 million ////

how can you support a flawed petition where the possibility is ever present, look away like its not there & make a bold claim you cannot even substantiate (simply because you are talking castles in the air). in the same post mention responsibility? (o.O)

until the loopholes are covered, the petition is flawed. hence, most people will not support it blindly. 8)

er there are many married men who are forumers on sammyboy, and are most likely cheating on their wives. I can’t believe the first thing which came to your head was “adulterous wives”.

I also still can’t believe that the forum posts that you mentioned should be a legit reason why ppl shouldn’t support NTR.

It just doesn’t make sense

post #40 on October 27th, 2009 5.19 pm

////perhaps as a woman, i suppose posts on sammyboy forums are pretty “eye-opening” as well.////

possible, if there are “hordes” of adulterous wives seeking fun (since to some, a husband can be just another other man)?

did i hear someone chanting humans rights & the freedom to do as he/she pleases ? does that (human rights) includes the right to casual sex outside marriage/adultery anot? more so if the wive is in an less than fulfilling marriage?

:P

post #38 on October 26th, 2009 12.56 am

the points you raised had been countered (why such reasoning is flawed) very well in the previous 2 articles.

also, how can the relationship between the husband & wife be swept into oblivion has been covered too.

just not necessairly (covered) by me.

She won’t seek help because:
1) The people around her ALL believe that wives should satisfy their husband’s sexual needs, being married. So she thinks this is okay, tolerance is the key. In fact, that’s how a lot of couples live – by tolerating… not accepting.

2) Divorce is out of the question since she can’t differentiate between acceptance and tolerance. Because she is also financially dependent on her hubby and have gotten used to the life, she doesn’t want to leave. Divorce is also still considered really bad, especially by older generation (and the media).

3) Her husband could threaten to kill her if she tells.

4) Psychologically traumatised/depression. Doesn’t know why she’s living or who she’s living for anymore. Doesn’t trust anyone.

5) Humiliation. As silly as it sounds, in Singapore, there’s still a large demographic of people who believe that “women should be seen and not heard”.

It’s similar to what the women in 3rd world countries experience, a common fear which needs to be eradicated. So don’t point blame the woman for not telling as well. It’s not as easy as it sounds. This is why women need all the protection they can get.

Nevertheless, as the physically stronger gender, men are, by natural instinct, inclined to protect women, the “physically weaker”, and I’m sure many man do enjoy the responsibility, the feeling to be relied on and appreciated by any lady.

I’d never think that there will be men HESITATING on women’s protection for their own worries. Such men probably have not been in love before, and have not realised how important it is to make a woman feel protected or be betrayed by a man who promised to take care of her.

Do not get carried away by the influx of independent females in Singapore. Most of us are grateful to have a voice and equal opportunities as men, but we still can never beat them physically. It was mentioned that “women will be insulted” by this act @ 10) btan’s comment. I don’t see how. Even the most alpha female would, deep down, want to be protected somehow.

This is not about being a gentleman or even being chivalrous. It’s about basic responsibility and respect.

There are always going to be black sheep regardless of gender. I agree with some of the points raised regarding the possibility of a woman taking advantage of this act, should it be implemented.

However the odds of this happening vs men sexually abusing women is like 1:1 million (worldwide).

Shame on those who blame women for “using sex as bait”. Men can say “no” to sex easily, but women can’t if it’s forced on them physically, so I can’t believe some of our educated bunch of netizens would even think twice about protection against rape.

I think NTR has achieved part of its purpose by increasing awareness of this topic, nevermind the petition. Good job!

perhaps as a woman, i suppose posts on sammyboy forums are pretty “eye-opening” as well.

:)

I am not following blindly. I’m just showing our friend that 2 can play his game. I do not make other snide remarks on this website and I don’t intend to in the future either.

@ 36) Pathetic IDIOTS on October 23rd, 2009 6.01 pm

According to any dictionary: RAPE is the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.

So marital rape is still rape and should be responded to accordingly too.

“We have been following all your comments and criticisms at every thread very closely, and hope to address and incorporate them in our future work.”

My goodness, I thought people like you – the organisers/brains behind this petition – must have thought through ALL the arguments – pros & cons, BEFORE you even launch it.

Sadly, I am wrong.

The arguments AGAINST criminalising NON-CONSENSUAL sex in a MARRIAGE have already been cogently presented in the thread “In S’pore, raping your wife is not rape” *Third link given in article.

For the supporter to even disgrace himself/herself to use the analogy of not being able to withdraw his money from the bank at will even though he/she KNEW BEFORE he/she even opened the bank account, speaks volume of the SHALLOWNESS and FRIVOLITY of such a campaign to criminalise the act.

IN LAW, as it currently stands, THERE IS NO SUCH THING as RAPE in a MARRIAGE, save as provided under exceptions.

It is obvious that the poor response is because that the cause has NO MERIT in the overall context of a marriage as an institution.

post #35 on October 23rd, 2009 5.22 am

just because other post snide remarks does not mean you should follow blindly.

which remark are you refering to?

scientific research? i have not came across 1 such in local context myself, but do you really need 1? are there not enough living walking “prove” out in the streets in shopping malls, or any public places where couples are seen hanging out together.

why not you provide a link to a scientific research paper to prove that most local men do take pleasure raping their wives, (1) how could women fail to vet their potential spouse adequately for such serious flaws & (2) local women’s attitude towards marriage. i actually provided some links on point (2)…

i have a radical idea. make couples undergo a psychological accessments to acertain they are sane enough when they agreed to get married. failing that, the marriage will not proceed, because they were madly in love- thus, blind. love is blind mah. :P

lol…

Hey mice is nice, I only used the same remark to show btan how simply his remark can be thrown back at him. As for snide remarks, I’m sure this is not the first time it’s happened on this website, although yes, we should refrain from it.

You wrote: “generally, women tend to choose a spouse who is physically bigger than themselves. it could be a psychological need to feel protected? of course, there are some who buck this trend, but its not that common.”

That might be a pretty big over-generalization by yourself.

And even if it’s true, it may be based on societal norms more than “physiological needs”. But if you can provide a link to a scientific research paper that backs such a claim, I’d be glad to read it.

post #31 on October 22nd, 2009 11.00 pm

////Ya, like most of the cases of abuse don’t happen towards women. Like most of the oppressed people on the planet aren’t women. Like most of the spouses that get beaten up aren’t women.

Use your brain (and heart) a bit please.////

let’s not get too carried away & over-generalise by raising it on a global scale, this petition applies only to S’pore & S’pore alone. its not a global petition.

women, young child & old folks all are more prone to physical (not ure about other forms) abuse. as for wives being beaten up, generally, women tend to choose a spouse who is physically bigger than themselves. it could be a psychological need to feel protected? of course, there are some who buck this trend, but its not that common.

please refrain from snide remarks. dun turn TOC into STOMP. lol…