It is actually much worse.

Often locals don’t get hired, but foreigners with similar/lower qualifications do.

E.g. Local grads find it hard to survive on $2,000. Foreigners can accept this pay. It is enough for them when they remit home.

Conclusion? Unemployed in your own country loh!

My local friend works in a local firm. He got an degree from a reputable US uni.

YET, he got paid lower than his foreigner colleagues (even those from Myanmar) who entered later than him! When the company ran into financial woes, he was the first to be laid off!

Good article Li Bihui.
These practises are silly. I hope the relevant HR departments wake up to such foolishness.
Perhaps Singapore should start running ethical courses from top down.
WDA should seriously look into it.

Great timely article!

If you browse through A-Star Post-Doc recruitment page, they offer Return air passage, Relocation and shipping allowance, Transit accommodation, Assistance with Settling-in. These are clearly spelled out for overseas candidates.

I wonder how local potential candidate can enjoy this kind of benefits?

Do local candidate enjoy extra salary per month if they do not get one-off re-location benefits like their overseas colleague.

3rdKlassCitizam

We are a sick nation!

## 4) blackfeline on October 19th, 2009 10.59 pm

“We are a sick nation!”

=========

It’s b’cos we have a sick Government.

Hope it’s terminal, where they are concerned..

This is why some Singaporeans migrate , even to countries with known discriminatory practices against foreigners, because they rather be a second class citizen in another country than a second class citizen in their own country. They probably feel more balanced this way.

Its not a matter of balanced. Its just the normal Singapore Bosses who wants to earn money. Everyone lets face it, if you are a Singaporean and you owe a company, which employee would you take if you are filling up a vacancy and the foreigner is asking for a lower pay? Mr Bitter Singaporean, what would you think? And if you are going to lay off someone, are u going to lay off someone with the lower pay? And assuming that both the employees that you are thinking of gets the same pay at the end, who will you lay off first? A foreigner who depends on you for every important single paycheck? Or the Singaporean who depends on you for every important single paycheck that you need to contribute CPF for?

Though I got to admit that it kinda stinks when the foreigner gets free company subsidy. Are those advertisements sent overseas? Doesn’t it kinda make awkward sense if the foreigner is already in Singapore and the company is paying for reallocation expenses. Are you sure about that? Any HR officer here who can comment?

I wonder? If the company pays for their reallocation expense when they come to Singapore, how much does the company pay? and what about the reallocation expenses BACK to their country when their contract is up?

Since all the examples given are the institutions,it would be more appropriate to title it as Institutions discriminate against their own instead of using the word Singapore employers.Whether these institutions are good at mathematics or not,they are not paying from their own pocket and thus have a different thinking from most employers and I dun see why must our Singapore employers be brought into the picture.

Part of the problem really is an institutionalized inferiority complex which justifies the unequal treatment(to attract and retain ‘talent’ so they say), and fetish for US/Europe-trained ‘foreign talents’ based on some US/European standards of talent-recognition.

# 1Bitter S’porean.

If an employer employs a local grad at $2000, his cost is $2260.

But for the grad he only sees 1600. A difference of 30% . And if I were him or her, I’d be unhappy. Not interested in retirement etc. I got to survive NOW.

When an employer pays a FT $1900, that is what he pays and what employee gets. Both are happy.

The incentives are skewed and this is one area where the govmin messed up big time. It is trying to do something via that employment scheme but it is only bandage.

Something has to give but this means govmin saying it got things wrong.

We cant never count on the government, as they always have a reason or excuse for anything, they are always right.

Greed has gotten into our heads, we forget about helping each other when the needs arise. Singaporeans were made very selfish, and if Singaporeans dont hire Singaporeans first, our demise is self made, gradual and eventual.

Simply stated, the PAP looked down upon Singaporean, believing Singaporean cannot do anything because Singaporean are kiasi, and kiasu.

There is why ABSOLUTE POWER ALWAYS CORRUPTS. Human are by nature Greedy.

There is why there is such a term called democracy.

Now Singapore has move backward, towards the older US regime,(in the 19th century?) before the democracy movement started. How sad.

OMG…this article has so missed the point. These companies are not recruiting for a $2000 dollar a month fresh graduate. These positions are for those with advanced degrees, years of experience and skills that don’t exist within the local employment group. The average FT that you are complaining about is not eligible for expatriate benefits inc housing and schooling. Do you seriously think a company would pay upwards of 3K a month for an overpriced apartment managed by a greedy landlord, then pay upwards of 20K a year for an International School for the expats kids…then only pay 2K a month??? We are talking the highly skilled jobs here, not the average FT.

And before you go too far and cry discrimination remember that if a Singaporean chooses to take a job overseas as an expatriate then they too will expect such benefits…it’s just one of the expectations for companies to attract leadership and skill-sets that are not present in the local community. Not to mention that it is part of the price for being a developed country in a global market that expects to attract and retain foreign investment.

## 7) Ho Wei Pin on October 20th, 2009 12.14 am

“who will you lay off first? A foreigner who depends on you for every important single paycheck? Or the Singaporean who depends on you for every important single paycheck that you need to contribute CPF for?”

=============

Do you always dress in White like your heroes, and live by their examples ??

It dosen’t matter to you that the Singaporean works harder or better or smarter or will die for this country…

It dosen’t matter to you that the Singaporean has a family to support, children to feed, bills to settle, mortgage to pay and will die for this country…

It dosen’t matter to you that the Singaporen has given his youth to NS, protects you in time of war, is law-abiding, contributed to society and will die for this country…

The poor foreigner has a family to feed and to send his paycheck to in
the Philippines, Bangladesh, India, China, Myamma, Timbaktoo…

It just breaks your heart for these poor foreigners, dosen’t it ??

You must be proud of yourself..

… as you as are following the example set by your beloved PAP Government.

Could this be an exploitation of Job Credit Scheme where the credit that employers received, from local taxpayers monies, are used to fund such excessive foreigner allowances instead of retaining local employee?

We have the ability to change this situation.
We have the power to make our lives better.

Vote for the opposition. Kick out our oppressors.

These can be no compromise. We must put every single opposition member in parliament.

If not the future will be very bleak for your children and your children’s children.

http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/Singapore/Story/STIStory_444281.html

The PAPies are telling us that they will be bringing in more foreigners to suppress our wages.

If we don’t act now to vote in the opposition, we won’t get another chance.

The choice is yours, The PAPies can say all they want, but we have the vote.

Use it wisely.

Discrimination against locals is very widespread. 15 yrs ago, I had to go for almost 30 days of ICT plus another 10 days for local army exercise (which was not counted as part of 40 days call up). My employer, a local bank appraised me very badly for my work performance. My NS obligations continued for another couple of years on the same intensity, with overseas training thrown in, for which I was totally cut off from work and family. Was it my fault? If I am an employer, will I hire a S’porean? Go figure it out.

mmmm:

OMG…this article has so missed the point.

No, you are missing the point. The point is that such policies make it such that even highly qualified Singaporeans who have “advanced degrees, years of experience and skills” will not get the benefits advertised above that expatriates with the same qualifications would get. I know of many cases of Singaporeans with good PhDs who came back to work in research in Singapore, but were offered no moving allowance and get no housing allowance, even though they had been studying or working for years overseas before that. For every one Singaporean who is willing to swallow their pride and take this inferior treatment, there are several more who are deterred from returning.

It is not true that there are not enough talented Singaporeans for such jobs. LKY himself has lamented the loss of much of the cream of our crop. Rather, there is no incentive for talented Singaporeans who have much better situations overseas to come back and be treated like second-class citizens. Wage levels in Singapore, for Singaporeans, really cannot match up to what a highly qualified Singaporean can earn in a first-world country.

Your assumption that there are no talented Singaporeans who deserve the rewards that expatriates get is insulting to the hordes of talented Singaporeans overseas.

they just don’t give a shit of you local breed anymore, what they want is more $$$ for themselves and their cronies, you don’t like then get lost from this island of so-called once pridefully yours, they already have more than enough FT turned citizenships in their pipeline to replace you people. Go think what you people need to do NOW! the situation here is really bad but the MSM is still very into covering up the actual scenerio from the people.

twasher,

You still miss the point. If those Singaporeans were recruited to move overseas they will have contracts that included housing and allowances, including flights home and repatriation if they decide to return to Singapore. Likewise if I return to my home country my contract here will move me home, but no company in my own country is going to pay to move me home to work for them, or offer me allowances once I am there. If I chose to work in my own country I live by one set of rules, if I chose to live as an expat I live by a second set of rules, that’s the reality.

If you as a Singaporean chose to become an expatriate you get the same treatment…are you suggesting that Singaporeans who move overseas for work, or relocate should not get any bonuses or help in relocating?

Every country discriminates against its own people in this regard. Not forgetting we are talking about a very small % of people. Not the average FT who you are threatened by…

…the truth is regardless of your nationality if you return to your own country you will be treated poorer than those deemed expatriates. You just have to deal with it. Or get out of your own country and never return home to live.

Let me ask another question: If the situation is so poor, why do the people swallow their pride to return??

And, do you really believe, and I mean REALLY believe that their can be change in Singapore for what you deem, the better?

This is what I called “Strangers in our own land.”

they will have contracts that included housing and allowances, including flights home and repatriation if they decide to return to Singapore

I have already said that this is not the case. I was/am colleagues with some of these people. The only reason they return is because of familial pressures. Otherwise, they would not have returned. As it is, many of them are unhappy in their work life.

Every country discriminates against its own people in this regard. Not forgetting we are talking about a very small % of people. Not the average FT who you are threatened by…
1) It is NOT true that every country does this. US universities and labs pay everyone the same wage. There is no such thing as a housing allowance for foreigners and not for locals. If there’s a housing allowance, everyone gets it, and if there’s a moving allowance, everyone who has to move gets it.

2) The Singaporeans we are alienating are among the most talented in their respective cohorts and are the people Singapore needs to transition into the creative industries. They may be small in numbers but large in potential economic impact. Singapore is trying to push into research in a big way and it is needless to alienate indigenous ‘talents’ this way.

@mmm

[[Every country discriminates against its own people in this regard. Not forgetting we are talking about a very small % of people. Not the average FT who you are threatened by…

…the truth is regardless of your nationality if you return to your own country you will be treated poorer than those deemed expatriates. You just have to deal with it. Or get out of your own country and never return home to live. ]]]

That is wrong. Most countries take care of their own citizens.

Singapore is probably the only country where its own citizens suffer disadvantages.

@mmm

completely agree. When Singaporeans are hired as expat they will get allowances and the likes. I was hired by GErman company 10 years ago and got exactly that. When my current SG employer hired me, he did not pay for my family to come back as it was my personal decision to come back as my son had to go for his NS!

There are two completely different discussions going on. Why would any citizen get a housing allowance if he works in his own country? Expat packages are supposed to compensate for the relocation. Europeans have mostly free education, which they dont have here for example. Hence the allowance.

Taking care of your own citizens is different from giving them housing allowances.

The major issue here in SG is that some SG employers refuse (yes literally refuse) to even read CV’s from fellow country men. One of my neighbours calls them “drones” and based on that insult he will never hire one of us.

SG are also more expensive with CPF and most will need extra days off for NS.

So instead of finding reasons to complain about a housing allowance, there are many other bridges to cross first.

6) Singaporean

I am an ex Singaporean that emigrated 3 years ago.

I can certainly tell you I am not a second class citizen here in my new homeland. I did however feel that way when I was still in Singapore. In fact, an ex reservist mate of mine that just visited me recently complained that he felt like a 3rd class citizen in Singapore. I asked him why and his reply was that 1st class citizens were all the PAP and elites in Singapore, 2nd class ones were FTs, PRs and new citizens while all Operationally Ready NS men were 3rd class because they had to make the annual sacrifice for the country which the 2nd class ones are exempted from.

I am glad I made the choice to leave.

100% of males at ITE and most neigbourhood schools end up serving NS.
Only 80% of RI and other so-called top-schools serve NS.
WHY?
The other 20% of so-called elite are here for the greatest free ride in the universe—foreigners on tax-payers funded scholarsips –NS free for life effectively bond free.
If they choose to stay—careers in GLCs and in govt will be fast-tracked.
While the locals take the crumbs of whatever jobs that are left while serving their 18-50 NS oblgiations
What are we defending again?

20/10/09

Sad, this happens in our Modern Singapore and time for us to create history and vote in as many Opposition MPs in this coming General Election like our Malaysian brothers over the causeway and if possible deprive the PAP of two third majority and to achieve this we must have a Modern Lee Kuan Yew cum Singapore Anwar Ibrahim who can lead all the Singapore Opposition parties and reach out to all Singaporeans (he must represent us and not solely a certain race perhaps minority which we already have seen in the PAP where they have so many Indians Ministers ie DPM, Minister of Finance, Minister of Law, Ministers of State and MPs which has crossed all lines).

Perhaps, he need not have to come from any of the Singapore Opposition parties who are looking for this someone to lead them, and must not be an Elite which we already have seen too many Elites in the PAPs and also in the Singapore Opposition Parties, perhaps good to be called Elites. He must be just an Ordinary Singaporean and must be Singapore born Chinese who first must be able to reach out to them and then the minorities ie Malays, Indians, Singhs, Eurasians and Jews-which I think we have a few in Singapore (former Israelis turned Singaporeans). He must be also street smart and knowing all the problems being faced by Singaporeans especially local born and hence lead a united Singapore Opposition Parties and give the PAP a run for their monies especially we know that the present PAP MPs have not lived up to the expectation of Minister Mentor Lee Kuan Yew-how long can he be with us and here, we must give him the respect as he has done a good job (Singapore became what she is after he stepped down and Goh Chok Tong took over ie became expansive and flooded with second and third class Foreign Talents).

Further, he must be equal or better than any of the PAP leaders including MPs and must be able to solve all the problems being faced by Modern Singapore and her citizens, and he must maintained what are good for Singapore ie a) Death Penalty for Drugs Traffickers and Murderers, b) Internal Security Act-ISA which must be amended to suit current time and use on both international and local terrorists and c) fine tune laws and public institutions like NS,HDB, CPF, Health and finally offer help to Singaporeans who really need them ie education but health must avoid a Welfare State at all costs (help must be given to Singaporeans who really need financial aids ie in education and health)

Regards
Andrew Chuah

20/10/09

error-should read “education and health” ,not “education but health”

Regards
Andrew Chuah

This is one of the signs of decline and decay, which will lead to the eventual downfall and demise of Singapore as a nation.

Though, after more than 40 years of nation-building, we are only half-way there; yet since LHL took over, things are breaking up.

I think his policy of “economic progress at all costs” will only be beneficial to himself and his kind but will be the destruction of most Singaporeans and eventually Singapore.

To be fair, I don’t see this as a form of discrimination towards singaporeans. From my understanding it is actually a very common practise for any other countries to provide such allowances for expats. There is a huge opportunity cost for somebody to “uproot” themselves from their homeland, leave their friends and family behind to work in a foreign country. Therefore companies that wish to employ expats will need to come out with a package that is attractive enough to lure them, and to “compensate” them for the sacrifices they have to make. It works both ways. So if a singaporean gets hired as an expat in an overseas company, he should also be expecting an attractive package. And considering that a company has to invest so much to hire an expat, it is logical that they will not hire expats unless they really think it is necessary to do so.

Even if a company base locally decides to post their employees overseas, they would generally offer a package that is attractive enough to the employee, which should also cover housing allowances and such. So in my view, this hiring policy is actually a standard practise and it’s in no way a form of discrimination against our own singaporeans.

its because the bullies know even if you are bullied.. you will still listen to them.. and give them all your pocket money…. the victim just has to learn to stand up to the bully.

remember biff?…..

We are indeed 2nd class citizens.

Many, if not all, of our attractions are meant primarily for foreigners. Entrance fees or charges are set so high that most Singaporeans cannot afford to bring their families to these attractions. More than 90 per cent of visitors to these sites are foreigners.

It is tragic being born a Singaporean.

Further to my posting at #10 where I wrote

“If an employer employs a local grad at $2000, his cost is $2260.

But for the grad he only sees 1600. A difference of 30% . And if I were him or her, I’d be unhappy. Not interested in retirement etc. I got to survive NOW.

When an employer pays a FT $1900, that is what he pays and what employee gets. Both are happy.”

Now if a employer wants to pay local grad a take home pay of $1,900 (same as FT), he would have to pay grad $2280 (1900 + 20% (employee CPF). That is not all. Employers total cost is now $2527 (including 13% employer CPF)

No brainer to get FT if he can — 33% cheaper.

The amt locked away in CPF system (for retirement, hsing) has created this distortion. Unintended consequence that must be fixed.

Reform of CPF system is a must. Whether PAP govmin can do this, is a test of their willingness to change. Remember LKY did not want to change rate in 86? recession. Goh Keng Swee insisted.

#36 by me.

Got this wrong

” Employers total cost is now $2527 (including 13% employer CPF)

No brainer to get FT if he can — 33% cheaper. ”

Should read

“Employers total cost is now $2576.40 (including 13% employer CPF)

No brainer to get FT if he can — 26% cheaper.”

@mmm

Let me ask another question: If the situation is so poor, why do the people swallow their pride to return??

A few reasons.

1. Their families are here, and despite the discriminatory monetary payouts, they choose to be with their families.

2. They are bonded scholars. So despite their wants or desires to leave, they are bound by the very commitment to receive less pay for the equal amount of work they engage in.

3. They don’t know how to leave. SGreans need to be spoon-fed, whether they have a Ph.D. or not. It’s the education system and also part of why the system is working despite its flaws. There is no info-session made readily available to Sgreans on how to leave the country. Someone should organize one, or if I am successful in leaving SG in some near future (hopefully), I will, because, I have a feeling it will be very very popular.

[...] in a Strange Land – TOC: Singapore employers discriminate against their own – Asian in America: Profit motive blinding governments to public good [via [...]

#GJ

Ever tot that despite everything, living in S’pore is better than the alternative of remaining abroad for many returnees?

Or they may have no choice.

S’pore is the exception when it comes to FTs — standards to get into US, UK, Oz, NZ, Canada, etc — pretty high. Not like S’pore that want FT to lower wages.

Besides S’pore has one big adv. Get on the asset ladder here, and the world’s your oyster when you retire. Getting there is the difficult bit.

I know alot of people will be offended if I say this. Years ago, when I worked in local SMEs the only foreigners were M’sians. However, those managers were all Spore Uni graduates. What is so appalling was their lack of language skills, incompetency & inefficient ways of working. One of them was not well versed in the English language & even has to go around & approached different secretaries to help him just to write some simple emails. Another one only knows how to organise monthly meetings to show the management that he is working & raised the same old subject every time without providing solutions. One of them play golfs every once to twice a week during weekdays during office hours. Another lady manager go clubbing or karaoke every night & only reports to the office after 1pm. These are just some examples which I personally encountered when I was working for SMEs in Singapore. I am not sure if this is retributions. Not all foreigners may be qualified, but there are also alot of incompetent Singaporean workers out there & if a foreigner is williing to accept a lower pay than them, the employer is bound to choose the latter.

The general attitude towards expats here should be quite obvious by now but I believe that we should always strive to see the bigger picture.
Dear all, have any of you (Singaporeans) worked overseas for an extended period of time, away from family? How were you treated and what perks did you recieve? Or were you treated like any other local employees? Are you graduates? Perhaps with some input we can see if this is a Uniquely Singapore problem.

P.S, I have worked overseas for a MNC, recieved pretty ok perks (close to what was described above, housing, travel, allowences etc but I am sure you guys can understand if no details should be revealed) and did not need to be a graduate to have all that so from what I see maybe this is not all that weird.
Ok your turn.

You can complain if you never vote for PAP. But if you do, don’t complain. Coz…

THAT’S WHAT YOU GET WHEN YOU ANYHOW VOTE!!!
(rhythm from Paramore’s song “That’s What You Get”)

I think many of you may have a wrong impression or information.

Relocation benefits in other countries like USA extends even to citizens. The name explains itself, basically because the country is big, so if a potential employee is from another state or city, the new company pays for his expense to relocate to work for the company.

Because of these, foreigner also get the benefits as foreigners have to relocate from their home country to the place of work. Meaning, this was a citizen’s benefits extended to foreigners, not one created for foreigners. And more importantly, this is a ONE TIME benefit. You relocate, you get paid an allowance and that’s it.

However, in Singapore, we never have any relocation benefits per se, due to the size of our country. However, a special benefit is created just for foreigners in terms of rentals. This is regardless of whether the foreign staff came directly from their home country or have already resided in the country. And the benefit they get is rental subsidy, which is an ONGOING benefit, which is a tremendous help.

This is why in other countries, other citizens have equal or better treatment compared to their foreigners but our country our citizens have worse treatment (considering the Singapore males have to do NS)

From the point of view of the employer, foreigners are more attractive to be hired as no need to pay CPF, their women have one less month of maternity leave, can pay them lesser, don’t need to expect them to take leave to attend to NS or family matters.

So think critically before you think there are no discrimination against our own citizens.

no wonder all the ah neh are laughing…they are thei highest number of FT employed in Sg

43) btan on October 21st, 2009 3.44 pm : “but our country our citizens have worse treatment (considering the Singapore males have to do NS)”

I am no fan of the powers that be in Singapore and am by no means a supporter of the many policies repeatedly inflicted upon us citizens but I do take issue with the fact that very often we hear people call national service a disadvantage or some kind of punishment.

Yes many aspects of NS needs to be changed and we can jolly well do with a shorter lenght of service etc but lets face it people, we will always need to defend ourselves no matter what. Why must having to serve put you at such a disadvantage? You learn stuff, keep fit and grow a backbone in many cases. If NS reaped you no rewards whatsoever perhaps you should start learning how to batter take advantage of every circumstance. In short, step up for a change, maybe the problem lies with you.

Anyway what has NS got to do with FTs? I repeat my question, have any of you been an FT before? If you are offered a good job in lets say the USA and IF they have NS like us will you be willing to enlist and do a tour of afganistan? After all you reap so many benefits and earned so many US dollars that could have been paid to a local citizen right? FTs should not even be in the picture. So please, its your duty, its your land, you serve for yourself, your family and your home, not for PAP. No one is screwing you over by asking you to protect your home remember that.

What the heck ??

All you people seem to do is just complain. “Wah Wah Wah…it is so unfair to Singaporeans.”

So what are you whiners going to do about ???

Just sit on your assess at your PCs and type out your grieviances.

Go do something about it…if you dare.

WE the true citizens of Singapore, Should defend our beloved Land from the aliens & the oppressing monsters. WE should stand as one UNITED PEOPLE , WE should fight at any cost, be our live.

I know of a manager who draws $1k every month for 9 years. His employer was his Dad. Nothing stops employers from paying you what they wish to pay you unless law stops it. —> Note, I did not say this is the right thing to do, nor am I implying the law is just or unjust.

While many expats get paid more than locals, there are also many expats (especially fresh PhDs) who are paid lower than what they should get.

If a company grows and does not rewards its staff after a few years, it’s time to ask whether your loyalty should also go. I’ve seen for myself how one “went” after more than 25 years of loyalty (a neighbouring retailer did the guy’s income tax).

Never once did they increased his salary. Imagine – darwing the same salary even after 25 years!! This guy’s employer is our island’s most famous ‘art framing people’. It’s a shame such employers exist! The FRAMING people! The “F” people. lol

People should only choose employers who not only care about profits, but also treat staff like how you’d expect customers to be treated. With fairness and courtesy. Also, never go for employers who do not give a hoot to customers’ SAFETY.

Do not expect govt to change any laws regarding salaries. If you think the pay is unfair, move on and look for other job opportunities. For now, you can only talk about it and blog about it! And let the whole world know!

Allowances should only be allowed if the foreigners in question are not well-off enough. But of course, the same rationale should also apply to Singaporeans.

This is sickening.

National service is no longer a commitment to the defence of Singapore, but rather just another law to abide to.

Employers in ANY country will run amok and implement unfair policies, if not regulated. That is why advanced countries have very strict labour laws and many avenues for redress. There will even be lawyers do will fight a case for you, free, and share the spoils if you win.

If a company in an advanced country wants to hire a foreigner, he must prove that he cannot get a local with the same skill. Even after that, there may still be QUOTA which prevents him from getting foreigners.

It’s funny that when a white expat moves to another advanced country, he is just ‘one of the guys’, taking a standard employment package. Only the top brass get privileges. In sinkapore, an expat leads a very different lifestyle from a local and hardly even interacts with locals.

just wanna drop in a few comments on some of the posts made

1) Voting in the opposition is not going to solve all the problems, more likely than not, it will only create more problems. This is not to say that the PAP should rule unopposed but i’m just saying that there is a lack of a better alternative at present time. (As much as I love Chee Soon Juan, i somehow rather see Lee Hsien Loong at the helm)

2) The whole notion about providing housing allowances is to provide a financial resolution (or security net) for workers who want to work in a foreign country, but are worried that they cannot afford to purchase or rent a new house. (i’d rather take a lower paying job in Singapore than go overseas for a higher paying job where i have to buy everything again (house car etc. blah) Singapore provides housing subsidies, loans, infra-structures and etc for locals to utilize. To expect employers to still offer housing allowance will 1) place further strain on local company’s resources, 2) question the validity and necessity of the HDB subsidies!

3) The first line of the article already seems to miss the point. A local employee and a foreign employee are not ‘equals’, they are two different workers coming from different contexts/backgrounds . Most Locals already have housing, friends and networks already established in Singapore(not to mention the chance for subsidies), while foreigners are entering a totally different environment and have different needs. If the whole article is built upon the premise of these two workers being equal then it needs to reconsider this. They are only equal if you see them in pure economic terms (as units of labor), which is, ironically what the same people criticize Singapore for doing too much (only thinking economically)

4) relocation benefits in Singapore? WHy are you even mentioning relocation benefits, which exist in countries many many times bigger than Singapore? Should i relocate from Bedok to Queenstown because i want to work there? If you are an employer, would you pay your worker allowances for such a move? Should the ‘equality’ of the allowance be taken at face value (He gets it , i don’t so i am oppressed) or should we, as many comments have asked, ‘think critically’?

5) in the same post where the author said that ‘Singaporeans are treated worse than foreigners, he also goes on to mention CPF and Maternity leave..

6) I am also a firm believer that Singaporeans should receive more work benefits, esp in comparison to foreigners, and that the PAP has gone too far in their quest for FTs. But i just believe many arguments here are barking up the wrong tree…

49) Jackson on October 22nd, 2009 11.10 am “National service is no longer a commitment to the defence of Singapore, but rather just ananother law to abide to. ”

What is the basis for your conviction?

Of course any individual can simply not care about the defence of Singapore, not a huge suprise but to say that the whole concept of national service being only relevant as a law rather than serving a real purpose for defence is an indication of how narrow minded our people have become. You think you are being pragmatic, realistic, jaded, seen it all but believe me you don’t even know what your are talking about.

We can have maids to clean up our homes and raise our kids, foreign workers to build our flats and clean our streets but who the hell is going to defend your home? It is a very simple logic, don’t have to go to a local Uni or even score a good L1R5 to learn that. People, it is not only your responsibility,it is our goddam right!

51) dX on October 22nd, 2009 12.20 pm

Don’t agree with everything in your post (number1 left a pretty sour taste)
but points 2,3,4 and 5 made alot more sense than most of what was written above. Safe to say the people who ‘bark up the wrong tree’ the loudest are prob people who have not and most likely never will experience what it is like to work overseas. Good one!

@45) True Patriot Down South on October 21st, 2009 5.40 pm

I really hope TOC or some other site will do a topic on NS so I can properly comment. This is off topic. Suffice to say the following…

1. We need an armed force. Yes. We need to have national service? Not necessary.

2. Which do you think is a better armed force : one that is professional and voluntary or one that is conscripted and unwilling?

3. Three words : voluntary national service. Let those who want, volunteer to serve in the army. They will then get the due reward and recognise but is “part-time” like what voluntary police is now.

4. In a war, numbers and technology alone do not win a battle. Strategy, tactics, morale, logistic and planning does. See Battle of Singapore where the British lost despite having more than twice the number of soldiers than the Japanese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_singapore

Still convinced we need a mass number of men to serve NS?

Some historical context.

When Singapore first wanted to have an armed forces, they asked for help to form one. The British for some reason did not help. Neither did the major western powers. Singapore was facing a possible war with Indonesia as part of the Malaysian alliance.

Out came Israel who volunteered to help build our military force. As you know Israel itself was threatened its existing by Arab neighbours. Of course they will be high strung and treat NS as their national survival. Hence they teach us the same siege mentality which they have till this day.

But we’re different. Yes we are surrounded by a grand total of TWO muslim nations. But these two nations don’t want to wipe us from the face of the map and kill all the Chinese and Indians. We’re now a conglomerate of nations consisting of many races and many religion.

So why carry the siege mentality of our Israeli teachers till this day?

National Conscription (I would not even call it National Service) is not needed. A professional armed forces will suffice. I am sure with a smaller resource pool, military organisation will work better to maximise their limited resource, not when there are a lot of cheap NS boys and men to waste.

51) dX on October 22nd, 2009 12.20 pm

[[just wanna drop in a few comments on some of the posts made

1) Voting in the opposition is not going to solve all the problems, more likely than not, it will only create more problems. This is not to say that the PAP should rule unopposed but i’m just saying that there is a lack of a better alternative at present time. (As much as I love Chee Soon Juan, i somehow rather see Lee Hsien Loong at the helm)]]

On what basis do you say that?

Voting in opposition creates a 2 party system. With that we will have check and balances and no single party can have hegemony over parliament and rubber stamp laws. Any ruling government who make bad policy or falter will have the opposition to check on it to ensure it does not. (e.g. bad policies like too many foreigners, bad investment in temasek etc…)

If LHL, performs, by all means, be the PM. But if he does not perform, he should be removed by PAP itself and PAP has to elect a new PM. If PAP chose not to, then it is not fit to be the ruling government and the opposition should be the new government (this scenario is not likely without a proper two party system yet)

53) True Patriot Down South on October 22nd, 2009 12.41 pm

[[Safe to say the people who ‘bark up the wrong tree’ the loudest are prob people who have not and most likely never will experience what it is like to work overseas.]]

On what basis do you say that? :)

I have personally worked half my working life in the US and I can tell you as a foreigner there, I can feel priority still goes to citizens and then PR. And I do not fault them. The US government goes out all its way to protect its citizen even if the citizen do not deserve such protection (as in the example of Michael Fay)

In fact, it made me feel that this country treasures its citizens. This is more than I can say about our own Singapore.

CPF is one of the biggest expense for employers in SinKapore employing local citizens. The gahment must do something about it to level the playing field otherwaise more and more SinKaporean will migrant and the country will eventually flooded with new immigrants. Is that what the PAP regime want? The hidden cost may not be obvious now but the bills will come in later. Typical short term solution for a long term problem. The low birth rate was a consequence of previous gahment policies and it is time for the PAP regime to come clean and put right their mistakes instead of compunding it for future generation. Housing is a good issue to start with. Many young couples delayed starting a family because they were waiting to own a house to call home.The cost of housing is major issue and since all HDB housing is gahment owned they could easily do something about it. The conclusion one could draw from existing PAP’s policies is they do not regard such issues as a priority. It is our duty as a SinKaporean to change and highlight such issues and make it a national priority. The only tool we have is the one vote we have which I would strongly called upon all SinKaporean to use it wisely for the good of the country.

refering to most singapore companies and agencies.

most of companies like security agencies and cleaner companies and more.. are treating singaporeans like a fool. thye under paid singaporeans. they delay the payment of salaries. they do not keep up with thier words as for what they had said during interviews. this companies assume that they go by the book and speak up to you..but when the time comes this companies has so many reasons on not paying you for what you had work for. most of the cases are singaporeans made to work extra hours and not being paid for it. their reasons are..,if foreign can take that why not singaporeans? government start to say singaporeans are too choosy on job.

ok can we say this. let LKY work and earn $500 and run his entire family? just enough for him and his entire family to eat porrigde everday! would that be ok? is that we call future success?while foreigners are enjoying with beer sessions and seafood dinner and back home they buy land after land and build their empire. is this singaporeans future?

VOTE PAP OUT!! this people are not what we singaporeans need. 50years of ripping us apart and dipping too deep in our pockets of our daily need deeper and deeper is enough! stop it now or never.

56) btan on October 22nd, 2009 3.38 pm

Glad to hear a comment from your own exp. 1st of all please note that dx was referring only to some comments and so was I, as a matter of fact I agree, It is true many other countries do take care of (or at least appear to) their citizens alot more tangiblly than our govt does. But I do wonder if we can really fault a private company for offering perks if they can afford it?

I’m confused really. If we were to say that we are being under cut by cheap labour willling to work more hours for less well then fine I can understand the frustration if you face direct competition but if a company (who I believe at the end of the day still focuses on profit more than anything) feels the need to shell out for ‘imported talent ‘at a premium price then perhaps they have a good reason (or too much money?). But yet some of you claim that they do that because due to CPF and all that we singaporeans cost more to hire??

Some claim that Singapore employers pay FTs to much meaning to say we get less pay.

Some claim that employers save on CPF by hiring FTs meaning to say we get more pay then?

So which is which?

54) btan on October 22nd, 2009 3.05 pm

I agree that this topic don’t belong here so I will keep it short.

Note that I said previously: “Yes many aspects of NS needs to be changed and we can jolly well do with a shorter lenght of service etc”

I can tell you that the NS system is full of problems btan but really, look around you, look at singapore, how many of us are going to join the armed forces on a voluntary basis? Be realistic. Ok lets assume that you pay really really well.
Is money everything? What about lifestyle? Will enough people want a regimented career? What we need is NS with more incentives, more enrichment programs and educational opportunities, less service time ( 6months would be more than enough) and a hell lot less wayang.

its seems obvious that CPF contributions, National Service & maybe even having children (let’s not forget that birthrates contribution to our nation’s survival) all add up to make employment rather imbalanced.

policies that play up those imbalance cannot take a half-hearted attempt or it will all go to waste. alot has been said about sinking roots to stem the brain drain of our local educated workforce, but either too little has been done so far or people in-charge are not doing it right.

It is blatantly obvious that NS is now a tool to keep male citizens in check. At an age where men are the most hot-blooded and prone to idealistic commitments, they are made to march in step, obey orders, and keep their head down to avoid being ‘arrowed’.

Will many people join the SAF if it’s a volunteer army? I think yes, if the SAF is revamped into a real army and not the deadwood paradise it is now. If it’s a kind of army very active in UN peacekeeping, and dedicated to the martial spirit, many men will join for a ‘higher calling’ like why americans serve their army with pride.

And then there is another alternative, first mooted in Starship Troopers (the book): people are born as PRs, not citizens. If they want to become citizens with much better benefits, they volunteer for NS. Otherwise it is fine and they remain PRs with limited benefits.

Another point on Israel: let us not forget that the entire Israeli economy and society supports their NS. Employers still hire citizens first and make all allowances for NS, families are committed to NS. Even Israelis born overseas may go back to serve NS by choice.

Why is that possible? They are a single race, motivated by preventing another holocaust. Their military leaders know how to lead: they charge ahead of their men, and are promoted based on results in real wars. So their generals are truly real warriors. Men accept and follow them.

@61) True Patriot Down South on October 22nd, 2009 8.54 pm

[[how many of us are going to join the armed forces on a voluntary basis? Be realistic.]]

How many are going to join the police force on a voluntary basis?

Your question is a moot point. The key point is VOLUNTARY. They can try to promote it, give more incentive like you said, as long as it is voluntary NS, the QUALITY of soldiers we have will be 10,000 times better than the FORCED CONSCRIPTION of NS soldiers we have now, simply because these people will be more dedicated. One man willing to fight for his country is better than 10 unwilling conscripts.

Regular soldiers + voluntary part time national servicemen should be enough for peace time defenses. As mentioned earlier, we are not Israel and we don’t need that high level of alert of citizen soldiers who are mainly sedentary salary men and won’t last long in a prolonged conflict anyway.

And should there be a prolonged conflict, it is still not too late to train up existing able men to be fighting fit. It takes about 3 to 6 months to train up a civilian to become a soldier, less if we are efficient about it.

And if really war comes to Singapore, it won’t be just able men but able women also have to be part of defense (either as front line or back line support). And it does not matter if you are citizen, PR or foreigner. If you choose to stay in Singapore, you jolly well take care of our defense or else you can get the hell out of the way.

65) btan on October 23rd, 2009 2.03 pm
“And it does not matter if you are citizen, PR or foreigner. If you choose to stay in Singapore, you jolly well take care of our defense or else you can get the hell out of the way. ”

The rest of your comments aside I support this statement 100%.
Its just that sometimes people are just cynical about our need for defense like as if its not their concern, to me thats bull. So good point there.

We obviously have a huge gap in ideology regarding NS so let me just say that you have brought up some interesting points that I will take as food for thought.

Having said that I too hope that there will be a day when we can have an army 100% committed, made up of people wholehearted in the defense of their land.
How we do something can be argued, till then, I feel we can all agree on one thing: Nothing is more important than protecting our home.

[...] foreign workers – this lush garden within: What is the value of Citizenship in Singapore? – TOC: Singapore employers discriminate against their own – Asian in America: Profit motive blinding governments to public good [via [...]

tell you what, many employers have rejected me before just because I have NS liabilities. it sucks.

and NS is the real reason why employers HATE singaporean males.

foreigners pay more taxes and levy than singaporeans and siingaporeans should be thankful to foreigners? oh really??

singaporeans:

1) pay high income tax

2) pay high property tax

3)pay high gst

4)pay high town counsil

5)pay high SP bills

6)pay high transportation fare

7)pay high medical fee

singaporeans are force to accept lower paid jobs

so this is what basically singaporeans are paying for the rest of their life and with low income how do you expect singaporeans to have even a small amount of savings for the future to retire old age?

or is there a retire for us singaporeans? we don’t see that yet.
the pap and the goverment have made a way that singaporeans are to earn within the limit as not to allow us to have savings and our saving is in the hand of the goverment and it is up to them if they wish to give it to us or to pocket in the own banks.

with low income and no savings..singaporeans are merely a slave working harder and harder each day to survive and what we earn are basically not ours, we only see the digits of our pay but do we really own it? NO!!

this is to contain singaporeans in this country as not to allowed any of us lower income earn to flee the country. the goverment knows well what it would be is one singaporeans were to give enough money and savings.., resulting them not wanting to live in singapore and flee away. why is this so? ask the goverment!!

so this is why poor singaporeans have no choice but to accept the indirectly of human slavery and torture and to let us live in pain despite knowing that we are suffering they simply doesn’t care as all this long in their mind is….WHICH SINGAPOREANS DARE TO VOICE UP?? the answer is NONE!!

vote after vote singaporeans blindly give in and hoping the goverment will pity and the old folks and the child to help them come up in live and feel the life they dreaming to live in. but the goverment simply do not have this time for us singaporeans

all their concern is:
you work you pay us
you sick you pay us
you want a house a place of shelter you pay us
you want help? sorry goverment has no money for us singaporeans

this is what will happen if singaporeans keep voting for them and they think we fear them
singaporeans think opposition will make our life more worst.
so are our life now any good? NO!!

as lky says..look at singapore now..yes singapore is beautiful!! with casino,F1 track, hotels,lots and lots of tourist attractions,lots and lots of entertainment for tourist

and what is singaporeans citizen getting out of all this? nothing. we have to keep sweating out daily to support and give the goverment the money they need to make more of this to attract tourist, foreigner working here and to give them support and welcome them with an open heart and help them even to land here with a high paying jobs and living in luxuries properties.

we singaporeans are carrying their loads.

ukrain in the ns?well…why not put the whole china national ,indian ,vietnamese ,japanese, korean and more.. into our army? must as well call in osama bin laden to join our army too as things would be easy for singapore to be destroy in any country finger tips. is this what we call defending our country?
STUPID LEE KUAN YEW!! you are exposing our country to disaster and open our country and selling piace by piece to foreign landing here. is this the promise you made for us singaporeans to vote you for the past 50years??!!

WE WILL VOTE YOU OUT THIS TIME AND WOULD NOT CONSIDER OVER YOUR GOODIES BAGS!!

59)singaporeans
“refering to most singapore companies and agencies…
security agencies and cleaning companies are treating singaporean like fools…underpay singaporean….delay payments…extra hours”

Seems like you have the experience as a cleaner or sookoority guard before ah?.Care to share your experience?
You never heard of singapore guard asking or demanding that their companies let them work 24 hours so that they can work in the day and sleep in the night ,getting a double salary as his family need more income etc..?The poor towkay have to give in becos he is short of manpower and also wanted to help as he understand that his salary is not enough . One day when the guard misbehave badly ,when told to resign,complain to MOM that it is the towkay who force him into doing OT..
Do you know how many contract workers has ask their employers not to deduct and contribute their CPF and later complain to CPF that their employer did not contribute CPF resulting in their failure to enjoy the workfare?
Pay them immediately after work and be a good employer and see how the AWOL?..
Do you know that sookoority guard can AWOL as and when they like so often that the towkay often have to stand in as a guard,some continuously 72 hours or more?Will MOM prosecute the employee for making their employer work more than 24 hours?

Compare a Singaporean to a Foreign worker,it is not just only because of the dollars and cents…We all know how productive we are……

Propose a few things every month and you get paid a high salary! The current system is such that only if you have a degree or some PhD, are you entitled to draw high salaries (5 figure every month not including bonus) in governmental or biotechnological jobs – even if it means you sit behind a pretty desk and do nothing except pick a few calls, and wait for the next meeting. To these people, they think “Where got SLAVE NATION?”

I am just wondering whether the education is even equal to quality of work shown. Something is really wrong! Reality is stranger than fiction!

security agencies are becoming like PAP blood sucking vampire. they make you work but they pay you less and mostly they won’t give you pay right

74)all Singaporeans
“security agencies are becoming like PAP blood sucking vampire.”
Interesting,then why are you working for them?Or are you going to tell me that you are not a guard now?Or it is a hearsay?I am interested to learn how they suck?Care to share ?

This is the sad reality of a typical singaporeans. There is no proper system to adminster the problems we are all facing. Look at our NS: assoicated or related to someone, you get to enjoy many benefits while serving NS. Look at our recruitment and hiring process – hire based on who you know and not based on skills and abilities. Look at those incompetent HR practioners and Senior Managers who do not have the capabilities to lead yet they want to manage people. Come on let’s face the reality, this is Asian, with an asian mindset, don’t expect anything to change.