I think HDB should not hand out any more market subsidies, they are making a loss! That would be disastrous if we do not allow HDB to peg prices to market forces!!

If HDB were to continue making losses, there would not be anymore affordable housing

…another Smoke Screen?
By the way, who is there to very that it is TRUE, who is there to say it’s UNTRUE – with their brand of ‘transparency’?

Agreed, another SMOKE SCREEN. All the announcement and figures shown come to nothing. Independent auditors should be called to check the books of HDB.

It is incredible that HDB is running at a loss. With no clear transparency as to building cost, etc. etc. they can write and say anything they want.

And HDB got the audacity to flash it on the headline news at 9 pm in CNA.
Is the government so magnanimous to REALLY subsidise HDB flat for the citizens. Even if they did, HDB would have calculated how to profit from it, with new flats peg at market value. For Heaven’s sake HDB please do not think that S’poreans are all fools. There are plentiful qualified auditors or CPAs who can balance account books.

The greatest fiasco of the 21st century, a deficit of 2.12 billion. Ha ha ha ha! Be prepared to have everything going up in cost and taxes to cover the shortfall !!

Creative accounting ? If a private condominum across the causeway of size similar to and quality not inferior to a 4RM HDB flat only cost like RM350k (<SGD150K ) , assuming fairly internationalised building material prices , why is there such a big difference ?

If the HDB is really selling at cost price or under subsidy , they must be getting a really bad deal from their contractors ?

So you may say oh land in SG is expensive , so a huge bulk of the HDB flat price goes to offseting the land price paid to SLA ?

Then where does the government grant comes from ? The budget ? or mysteriously out of no where ?

4) nocityforoldmen

HDB at loss, HDB’s contractor share price is up!

My first reaction when I heard it on CNA news was “HDB HAS A DEFICIT? HOW CAN IT BE? “.

haha…i had the same reaction when hear it from radio…are “they” trying to do some funny thing again…everytime you come out with report losses, they will try to suck more money from us again…

Could it be the work of HO jinx since all the billions were washed down the drain by her and she could not repay HDB? Being in the monopoly “business” I am surprised by such a mocking news. Like I said, no tranparency no basis. HDB expect us to believe their craps or may be they have other hidden agenda by silently trying to find ways to cut down on their so-called “subsidy”.

the gahment must be thinking we are a bunch of blithering morons who are uneducated and easily fooled.

The HDB Report is just another statistic shit(sheet)

and there are statistics, damn statistics and shits.

Hard for most to differentiate them.

Smokescreen? i suspect it to be far worse than that.

patriot

If the HDB stands by its figures, the whole top management of the HDB, starting with the CEO should have their pay cut by at least half.

I think HDB has long became a big whore of liar. It now only serves to convert Singaporean to sceptic.

Sooner or later no one will believe in government.

How can HDB be running at a deficit? Has anybody been to the new Pasir Ris HDB office. It’ has been renovated recently and looks real posh.

An organisation that claims to be running at a loss will not and should not be spending so much money on interior decor to serve a captive audience.

Sure, Singaporeans believe HDB is losing money as much as we believe Ho Jing is making money!

He He He!
Accounting – Uniquely Singapore Style

Change will only come when we vote in the opposition. Otherwise we have to hear more lies.

I believe there is a reason why they make the HDB flats so expensive for us. They are forcing us to be in debt for 30 years, then still be cash poor after 30 years. They believe people with no money won’t make trouble for them

I feel they know their unpopularity. They just want to siphon as much money as possible and leave the mess to the unfortunate mortals who don’t have the money to migrate away.

While they get million dollar salaries and play golf, let foreigners trample over our heads, I am complaining at TOC. I can just imagine how they will laugh when they see our comments here. We are joke to them.

Damn, I really feel like shit now.

does this mean that Minister for HDB will put his million dollar salary back because of incompetence and mismanagement?

I think this is a PR trick by HDB and PAP to trick people to think that the government is trying their best to help provide “affordable” housing to the people. Depsite many of us have doubts in HDB’s creative and non tranparent accounting practices, I guess many Singaporeans out there will actually believe in them. This is a sad truth, as most Singaporeans are just too naive, lazy and uninterested to find out the truth.

Would Mr Leong Sze Hian be writing in to HDB’s CEO Tay Kim Poh hdbceo@hdb.gov.sg for further clarification on HDB’s Annual Report 08/09.

http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10221p.nsf/0/d4a0f107613b79944825766200236310/$FILE/Financial%20Report%202009.pdf

Hdb is having a deficit when not taking govt grants into account. For eg. a flat sells for 600k in the open market and the subsidised price sold to the peasant is 400k. They “lost” 200k, even if the real cost of the flat is only a 100k. Get it peasants!!?? They take us for fools with their creative accounting!

[...] Housing – TOC: HDB Annual Report : Deficit has doubled – really? [...]

Very simpie, do not vote for PAP anymore, so that we will not have to such a mocking news any more. All singaporean, stand out and group together

Is the bridge linking Malaysia and Sumatra on or off?
And what about the bridges linking Spore. Batam and Bintang Island?
I heard the Chinese are keen to fund these projects…

rubbish! when i bought 2nd time hdb flat, i was levied 20% and so are many of you (upgraded) . after more than 10 years now, i still pissed at these 20% stupid levy imposed during GCT’s time. shit!

well with the amount of money they have lost so far from their ‘fantastic’ investments, they sure could have afforded to make housing much more affordable for citizens and keep us happy.

But obviously, that is not the intention.

It is the most unbelieveable news(report) that i have came across in my six decades of existence.

patriot

how did the HDB manage their funds? Did they invest in the toxi funds and lose their pants?

Surely if TCs invested in toxic funds and the entire SWF are involved, I doubted HDB is not involved at all since the core team are from the same bunch of people. Monkeys see monkeys do and monkeys have red buttocks.

Oh and to add. I was at the coffeeshop yesterday evening, heard the Malaysian PR sitting at the table next to me boasting to his friends that his flat appreciated $100k since he bought it 3 years ago.

I ordered a beer immediately and sat there for hours. I have no flat of my own to return to anyway. Not enough $ to pay the foreigners for a flat in my own country….(bitter laughter~)

I puked later….and it was not because of the beer.

http://www.todayonline.com/Singapore/EDC091103-0000041/?Arrears-drop%2c-despite-recession-

However, Ngee Ann Polytechnic real estate lecturer Nicholas Mak said: “Arrears usually increase in a recession, but the HDB resale market was buoyant and these households could have benefited from this by selling their flat to pay off their debt and then moving in with relatives or to a smaller flat.”
===============================================================

This remark is scary but so true. There are now more homeless Singaporeans than ever before. HDB seems to be helping foreigners to own homes here.

Reminds me of this old joke that we often hear in primary school…

One day the husband came home all hot and sweaty but bearing a big grin on his face. He proceeds to tell his wife how he saved S$1 by running after his bus and had to walk home. Instead of being pleased, the wife scolded the husband for being stupid – he could have saved S$5 if he had ran behind a taxi.

See the parallel here? Instead of saving S$1 (by not taking the bus), our dear HDB continues to tell us how we had actually saved S$5 (using the cab fare as comparison)…

And in essence, it is subsiding us for the phantom S$5…how “cool” is that?!

Jokes aside, can those with knowledge in real estate do a costing of how much is the government (SLA) charging HDB for the land in terms of S$ psf?

For HDB to be in deficit ?….. could be real, but for some reasons.

My humble guess…the cost of land plus other costs imposed by the government has been inflated whereby on paper, HDB had to fork out very much higher costs to build the flats.

Why?

Money went to Temasek and GIC cos over there money not enough lor…

This must go down to be the biggest joke of the year! HDB is the biggest property
developer in Singapore. HDB build houses in bulk and set their own selling prices
(by the way is at market rates) Even with the so called subsidies factored in HDB
is still making a neat profit. If, indeed HDB is running at a loss, $2.12billion,then the
first one to be chopped will be the N.D. minister! He has all the finances and manpower at his disposal and yet he can’t perform! Is this a clear signal that HDB
houses will be more expensive from now on so as to cover the so called ‘deficit’??

Since HDB’s performance affects 80% of the population, why can’t HDB be transparent and be audited by an independent firm or is there something to hide?

Why insists on public listed firms with revenue as little as tens of millions be transparent with full disclosures while HDB with turn-over of billions remain hidden from scrutiny?

Look simple to me.

Just transfer the money from HDB department to Temasek Holding and GIC, and then the transfer becomes a loss to HDB !!!!

I recall Marlboro Tan once claim that HDB does not earn profit, you wonder where the bulk of profit gone to then ? Your guess is as good as mine.

Godfather and sissy son of Singapore, any highfalutin comment ?

I think those numbers need to be verified by an external auditor.

Yeah, I was choking on my soup yesterday as well when I heard the news.
With the buoyant resale market, how can there be a deficit?

Just the resale market alone, I am sure HDB is already making a lot of money from the transactions of home that exchanged hands! And those resale flats, most of which were built in times where construction cost is so much CHEAPER than today!
PLUS the levies they charge for those who bought and sold HDB flats, how could it be possible that they are in deficit to the tune of >$2 billion?
Billion leh…. with a “B” hor!

Sheez~~~!
Looking at the Dunston flats, just the second round of sale of the remainder flats is enough to cover the gross earnings from the first round of sale liow loh!

The accounting report smells fishy even to a layman like me!
Sigh… should have studied harder in accounting when I was in school.
Now, even listening to the figures given by the new report, I not only see stars, I see no sense as well!

Deficit? Really?

[ Finally, what incentive is there for the HDB to be run more efficiently if its deficits are always offset by Government grants ...]
None at all. That’s why it could give severance angpows to staff that were retrenched but were instantly given jobs at a HDB subsidiary (Lee Han Shih wrote about this and was given the boot). Also the same reason it could move to Toa Payoh and leave the old HQ in Bt Merah vacant within a new tenant.

Setting a fire in the barn to cover up for something elsewhere…

maybe this helps to reaffirm MBT’s message of affordability? but to hell, i think even teens will know that you can’t make a lost building a flat at low cost and selling it at high prices…

Holy shit, lesser mortals are now treated like idiots!

If HDB can end up with a deficit, then Pigs Can Fly.
Singapore should score #1 in press freedom.
There are no kangaroos in Singapore Courts, and
There are no judges in Singapore Zoological Gardens.
LKY in not in control of Singapore, and
My mother has just taken over Her Royal Highness Elizabeth’s post as the Queen of England.
Maybe I’ll be reincarnated after I’m fed to the fish and return as the POTUS!

Unless, of course, HDB went on a gambling spree like Town Councils who dabbled in toxic Lehman Bros or Ah Long (as in lend) $$$ to GIC or Temasek and can’t get them to O$P$. (Owe Money, Pay Money!)

How can a monopoly with so much freedom and free-play (charging HDB hapless mortgagees any price it fancies) end up with such a shameless account of itself?

Anyway, if Wong Kan Seng can still keep his job after Mas Selamat Jalan to JB, I doubt Mah Bow Tan will lose his million-dollar-job.

feedmetothefish

This so damn lame…
So as a government, if they absolve themselves from ALL forms of ‘welfare’ & general care for the the citizens in in this aspect, SUBSIDIZING public housing, what is this adminsitration’s purpose of being?? Purely capitalizing?
And so some money had to be expended for Lift Upgrading, but who is responsible for building flats without FORE-THINKING that people do grow old and will need the elevators to stop at every floor as time past???

Is this article’s trying to blame citizens for their lack of financial management or are they trying to say that they have BLED for us all significantly???

Who is actually BLEEDING more and still bleeding?

The trouble with having too many top scholarship-bonded parasites in govt establishments is that they have nothing much to do except to think and crack their brains day in and day out. But the facts remain that they do not have much ground experiences because they jump from one post to another in double-quick time.

And they will have to show to their bosses that they are actually working and also worth the money the govt has invested upon them for so many years.

Moreover, they also have to put their personal career of moving up the ladder first and foremost above anything else, simply because of the civil service appraisal system.

And some among them may harbour the hope of becoming a millionaire minister one day.

So what happens then? Creative accounting – to impress the boss, to confuse the public, to delude themselves, to suppress information, etc.?

I suspect that is why HDB has been so reluctant to reveal the actual costing of building a flat without clinging ever so dearly to market price and without the illogical input of inflated land cost which the govt has grabbed by force of law from the weak, powerless, defenceless citizen-owners for pittance.

Nobody likes creative accounting except those who are in the position to benefit from such underhand and dirty tactics because it speaks volumes about their integrity and honesty.

I think the Accountant General should investigate into HDB’s books immediately. The following questions should be asked, investigated and answered:

Why is there so much deficit? What has/have caused the deficit?

Is there a mis-management of HDB’s affairs?

Is the Mini$ter busy playing politics on lift upgrading or taking his responsibility of managing the HDB efficiently and effectively for the benefit of the citizens as a whole?

Are the accounting books properly kept and maintained by each and every branch, dept, section, etc.?

Are transactions properly recorded with the necessary details, and without generalisation?

Are there discrepancies similar to what they have found in EDB and LTA’s books?

Are HDB’s HQ and Branches having too many staff at the expense of taxpayers’ money?

Are HDB’s staff over-paid in terms of salaries and bonuses, and perks (especially their top echelons)?

Are the tenders properly given out according the government standard non-corrupt procedures and strict observance?

Are building construction projects properly supervised and immediate remedial actions taken to prevent malpractices, unsafe actions and corruption?

Etc., etc., etc.

Ask the sage from Houkang to reask the q on deficit.

This was an insult to the collective intellgence of Singaporeans.

Transparency in other developed countries means people can look “into” the government machinery and know what is happening inside. This is analogous to an X-ray image.

Transparency here means people can see “through” the government machinery and cannot observe what is happening inside. This is analogous to putting on Harry Potter’s invisible coat.

So much for ‘good’ and ‘clean’ governance. A government board that refuses to reveal information such as this, really has got something to hide.

Please don’t give ridiculous excuses like, ‘Information is for national security, therefore cannot let public know.’

People don’t buy this kind of bs anymore.

I have downloaded the annual report of HDB from here: http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10296p.nsf/WPDis/About%20UsAnnual%20Reports?OpenDocument#

I just want to highlight something. Even though HDB reports a 2 billion loss. Their cash flow from operations has been positive. If we open page 18 of their 08/09 annual report we will see that in 07/08 net cash flow from operations was +3.26 billion and in 08/09, the net cash flow from operations was +518million.

Cash flows do not lie and the continued positive cash flow each year signifies one thing – the loss made by HDB was just paper loss!!!! It is probably due to them benchmarking the price to those flats on open market. Of course they will make a loss compared to market price since they subsidise each and every flat. Their loss is based on the price difference btw the amount they sell to people and the current open market price.

But hey we all know you only make a loss if ur cost of materials is higher than your selling price. If u take cost of materials as actual costs – they have NEVER been making a loss. In fact they make few hundred millions every year from building and selling flats to citizens.

Ha Ha. i like it.
HDB is adopting my name.

People. Don’t be a bunch of losers. “Don’t like them, don’t vote for them”. So many people say the same things but when GE come, they still win by such big margin. Don’t just say and no action. Especially those living in Tampines.
Action!!!
Action!!!

could this be a “tracer fired” to indicate that “affordable” home prices is going to rise again?

JOKE OF THE YEAR 2009.
HDB making losses

Hi,

I saw this HDB loss news on the news on tv yesterday evening. However, I can’t seems to find the article on it in online ST & Lianhe Zaobao.

And I don’t seems to saw it on today newspaper(hardcopy too). Can someone advise if you manage to find it? Or they took out this news?

So why isn’t the entire management team sacked for poor management? Hmm?

52) tan on November 3rd, 2009 5.56 pm

why bother to read news from the Singapore MSM? It has no credibility at all!
A recent classic example is the letter from Potong Pasir Town Council rebutting a ST report. The letter was published here on TOC but not publish at Straits Times which the letter was sent to.

Look at the ST like the Squid (Sotong);
to escape, squirt black ink & disappear…

My neighbourhood roti prata seller made a huge multi-million dollar loss this year.

He used the same accounting system as the HDB and realised that he was offering a large market subsidy to buyers of his roti prata – at the Shangri-La, the roti prata was $15 a plate and only had two prata kosong with a piece of chicken in the curry gravy. He on the other hand, provided a $12 subsidy for each customer buying from him. With the several hundred thousand plates of roti prata he sold last year, he incurred a massive loss in the millions.

Thank goodness for the generosity of hawkers like him – otherwise how would Singaporeans survive!

54) FriedKwayTiaoWithHum on November 3rd, 2009 6.07 pm

Because i want detail information on how HDB come about with the loss. …and It’ll be clearer and easier for people to spot error? :p

Notice that when headline of tv news don’t appear, even as normal news in hardcopy, i’m just wondering if it means something is ‘wrong’ with the news, thus they don’t want people to have ‘hardcopy’ of it…?

Look under Expenditure :
“Provision for foreseeable/unrealised loss for properties under development/for sale.” is S$1,237m (S$1.237b). Can someone explain this?
Previous year was S$784m.

Loss under sales? I doubt so. Each unit price at Pinnacle has increased S$200k, since it was launched in 2004. What about all the S$10 application fee collected?
If they had tried their very best to reduce the “foreseeable” losses, I think they have not put in their “world class” effort.

Time for “Haven’t pay Don’t Build” (HDB) to explain.

Yet another piece of bogus news purposefully presented in a convoluted manner so your average heartlander (i.e uncles and aunties) are never going to understand it. Sadly, this bogus ‘deficit’ is going to be announced on the news, convincing the majority that we are indeed getting a ’steal’ for government-subsidised housing.

However, unlike a bigger country like China or even the USA where there are simply too many people to ensure the majority get the truth, Singapore is a relatively small country where even word by mouth can spread relatively quickly.

As naive as this might sound, I would suggest starting from family members, correct them if they are misinformed. The reason why the PAP has been able to operate without accounting to the people for so long is because of this information asymmetry. Correct that and they won’t be able to stand for much longer.

Folks these are the tell tale signs that Singapore is bleeding and its not because of grants or meger handouts, its because of poor leadership….. I hope the elections come soon so that evey Singaporean who wants a govt that works for its people and is will serve the people without million dollar salary will exercise your vote for a better govt.

I just hope that there is enough money in the kitty left for us…..may we all live to see a better govt. Singaporeans have come a long way, lets not let all our hardwork go to waste because of poor leadership……..

They have tried everthing at the expense of the people and soon the system will turn on itself…….

In summary we get depressed wages with no welfare and no minimum wage, Poor policy that opened up the flood gates for cheap labour,,,,,,, lease a house for 99 years and pay till you drop dead……don’t get married or don’t want to have children because of unstable economic conditions on wages and jobs….. cost of medical goes up and up …….and last but not least we have million dollar mouth piece that ask you to take a cheaper salary and work harder……..

This is the Singapore i know sadly…….serve my nation in the Army to find jobs being taken up by foreigners, and what are we defending here again ?

As a citizen and tax payer, I am very upset that HDB incurred a deficit of $2 billion when the majority of the population thinks that HDB is making thousands of dollars for each flat sold.

The minister must explain in detail the variance between the citizens’ perception of huge profit and the $2 billion deficit.

$2 billion ($2,000,000,000) divided by 10,000 flats per year = $200,000 defict for each flat sold. This is mind boggling! It is obsence!!

From managing only the HDB carparks I can make $2 BILLION.
What a gold mine!
Provided I am not told to hand any proceed over to the Jinx

Singapore Press Holdings is one of the region’s largest publisher and the premier information and communications company in Singapore and Asia. It …..currently publishes 10 newspapers in 4 languages. In Singapore alone, these reach 3.8 million readers daily with a combined daily circulation of 1.1 million copies……..

Judy Choong
Senior Manager, Advertising & Promotions
Marketing Division

http://www.sph.com.sg/article.display.php?id=20
===============================================================

3.8 millions readers in Singapore daily? What BS? With the population of Singaporeans and PRs being 3.8 million, this claim by SPH means every man, woman, child and even baby, reads one of its newspapers.

Playing with the numbers? Most certainly. That is why I don’t trust anything printed in the Shitty Times.

I wonder if the advertisers are fooled by this.

I’m shocked by the news. I couldn’t believe my ears when I heard on the radio news that the HDB made such a big loss. Heads must roll!

All Singapore citizen, it is time to vote and support opposition party, we paid world class salary to minister (whole cabinet), then they can tell you HDB made $2 Billion loss. They think we are stupid ?

Im really flabbergasted by that announcement.

How can the ONLY authorised person to sell flats in Singapore be making losses? And at this astonishing level? This is an obvious firing offence.

For failing check and balances at this magnificent magnitude, the whole management should resign in shame. I can put my pet worm in their place and i bet it cant get any worst.

Im utterly disappointed that the best and brightest brains the incumbent are bragging about are screwing with Singaporeans future. Lets pray hard.

Trust me when I say that government will announce more superficial and creatively-manipulated losses which they will happily blame on the citizens in order to justify for GST rise from current 7% to 10%. Yes, this time increase GST to help the SIN CITY, not the poor anymore.

I was in utter disbelief when I saw the report. My first instinctive reaction was whether this is a concocted ploy by SPH and HDB to simmer the recent public heat and angst on the ever increasing resale prices.

How could a public institution with escalating asset values so akin to a mega corporation be in the red unless it is a case of investments gone wrong. I am no accounting guru so I am really interested to know if someone can expound in figures terms how the below reasons cited could have really led them to a 2 billion deficit?

- Highly subsidised flats
- Higher construction costs
- Upgrading works for lifts
- Rental flats.
- Lease Buyback Scheme
- Mortgage arrears

They must be paying the minister and everyone at HDB a good salary lah….that is why……

Imagine the way the mint and yet this creative accounting…..all because there is nobody to ask. Well, it about time to decide for our futures.

Just throw the pap out of govt and the hdb pricing would eventually start dropping cos each and every ministry is more concern in answerable to only 1 old man when their ministry is not making any money rather than looking after the well being of the local citizens. Time to kick them all out of office before things get worst, as a matter of fact, we are already doomed.

#32 this must be a joke….

I think you are right, the real reason is to keep HDB flat prices up.

I will go for the next GE rally of the PAP and ask them to migrate. It is too stressful having them in Singapore.

so where did the profits go then? read the SLA 2009 report may shed some light

The funny thing is you cant find the 2009 report on SLA website
but here
http://www.sla.gov.sg/doc/new/SLA_Annual_Report_2009_low_res.pdf

Indeed this is the GREAT Singapore SALE :)

Believed it must be a fool! It must be a big joke HDB making a big loss!

i think we should put pressure on all HDB staff and activities and report any signs of lavish spending

that way, we can help them reduce the deficit….

i’m watching out for their bonuses and office decor

lets help HDB reduce spending and contribute to nation building!

Did HDB buy MiniBomb too ?

cost of flats is the best kept secrets in sg. Sze Hian, is there any other govt boards accounting is as creative as HDB’s?

Its simply strange that no one in Singapore has a right to ask and receive a straight forward reply of how much is the total cost of building a flat and the actual selling price.

Just an answer like In Queenstown or Snegkang, the land cost for this BTO project is $XXX and the construction cost is $XXX with misc cost $XXX. These are sold at an average price $XXX resulting in a subsidy of the ($XXX- $XXX) = $XXX

Even if it is a market subsidy, people will still be happy as the the land is at Market price with a real figure.

Don’t 80% of the population have a right to know a simple fact like these? Will it cause riots or is it a state secret we must not let other countries know?

Maybe they were overpaid the Phua Chu Kangs of Singapore for the contracts to build lifts and sheltered walkways.

Or maybe they overpaid the construction workers from India?

Or maybe the cement they used were mixed with gold dust instead of stones.

Or maybe…ugh. who are we kidding??

They usually hold prices down just before the elections. Once they are return to power, the prices go up immediately. This is tragic as the data below shows more suicide in election years after the price increase (sometimes immediately after polling day).

http://theonlinecitizen.com/2007/08/the-relentless-rising-cost-of-living-in-singapore/

http://www.tnp.sg/printfriendly/0,4139,109699,00.html

Wow…a lot of good news coming, HDB losing money, TH making money, LHL says no double dip recession and this morning the Tooth fairy appeared at my door step. All this is a figment of imagination. All I can see is that HDB prices are going up, CPF money going to be stuck for a long time, jobless rate going up and rentals going up…..singaporeans are really in dreamland…..

Just 4 words “Laugh Out Loud” and Unbelievable.

Reverse engineering from the TH/GIC saga, similar ingredients but different dressing?? these are the trciks the highly paid civil servants learned during their expensive cooking trips in France. I seriously think how long these elites can play this cooking up trick for how long?

u know what guys, developers like far east and city dev making millions if not billions and our dear million dollar paid minister lost BILLIONS AND NOT MILLIONS.

Lies, more lies and damn lies!! Lee and horse face Mah thinks that just by publishing an incoherent report will deceive the people and make them stop their criticism!

Big Cheers to Shawn @ 47) Shawn on November 3rd, 2009 5.01 pm.
Yes, cashflow never lies. A firm with a fantastic Balance sheet and great Profit & Loss statement with a negative cashflow is lying through its teeth…which is what we have with the HDB press release. I wonder who decided to make that announcement?

As for any actual inquiry…ohoh…the Auditor General Lim Soo Ping used to be Deputy Secretary (Information and the Arts), Ministry of Information, Communications and the Arts. More merry go rounds for the Preferred Appointed People (PAP). When his office has to report to the President and Parliament, I don’t think we can count him to be giving us any heads up on what’s happening at HDB…IF his office is ever allowed to do anything like that.

another excuse to bring up the cost of HDB. Something is wrong. Mr Mah think we are all stupid.

Oh holy shit! I just brought the HDB 5Billion Bond and it just turned to paper cos they are having a deficit!

I want my money back….damn corrupted body!

Paul at @56 gives the simplest answer to how HDB is faking it better than a Jap AV model, so even uncle and aunties understand.

To summarize, I sell 2 prata for $1.50, kosong, with curry. Shangri La’s prata kosong sells for $10. Therefore every prata I sell I lose $8.50.

1 year I sell 20,000 prata, so in total I lose $170,000.

HDB sell flat for $400,000. Opposite condo sells for $600,000. Therefore every HDB that is sold, HDB loses $200,000

1 year sell 10,000 HDB, so in total lose $2 billion.

#Devoran, you are absolutely right on that kind of the calculation of HDB. They only take into account the subsidies, the upgrading expenses, the buyback money spent etc, etc. Wow! all losing leh!

The market value profit on new flats and the surcharge on buying second flat on citizens, low land cost, minimum development cost. Huge profit on BTO flats.

And MND and Mabok kateh Tan never uttered a word in the ST and clarify their stand. They know that they puledl a too fast one on us all and are now kicking their own arse for their stupidity.

Sheer madness!! HDB lose 2 billion. The transaction of new and resale flats are fast and furious. Who are they trying to bluff? Maybe LKY’s grandson or granddaughter. HAHAHAHA !

I think we better ask Lee Wei Ling to speak up in the Sunday column and clarify her stand on the fiasco of HDB.

She is a woman of conscience now compared to Mabok kateh Tan.

sorry to say that I find it hard to believe when I first heard of the news, wonder how can it be deficit instead of surplus

There is a term called “creative accounting” Perhaps HDB should disclosure how they arrive the deficits especially for newly built flats which are sold at slightly below market prices? Don’t take things at face value.

I wonder why opposition like WP, RP is not ‘cashing’ on this one BIG lobang to give them a big ‘bang’ to fire them. They could write on their websites.

Shall we take actions and remind them?

“Paul at @56 gives the simplest answer to how HDB is faking it better than a Jap AV model, so even uncle and aunties understand.

To summarize, I sell 2 prata for $1.50, kosong, with curry. Shangri La’s prata kosong sells for $10. Therefore every prata I sell I lose $8.50.

1 year I sell 20,000 prata, so in total I lose $170,000.

HDB sell flat for $400,000. Opposite condo sells for $600,000. Therefore every HDB that is sold, HDB loses $200,000

1 year sell 10,000 HDB, so in total lose $2 billion.”

The greatest con-family and con-government on earth running the SIN CITY. Where else in the world can we have such a illegalised large-scale scam happening ? Fancy using creative accounting and hoodwinking the nation that our accounting is above board and law.

Even if Singaporeans want to shut their eyes , heaven will not. I smell that downfall of PAP is imminent. Long Live PAP !!!!

Good grief, I get Sgd1,500 salary and govt minister get 1 million, means that I’m under paid by 998500! Where can I make a claim for back pay?

If I run a business, I can charge anything I want and people still have to buy from me, I can get subsidy if I make a loss and I can promoted for getting subsidy, is there anything I need to do? I will be taking 5 weeks off to learn French cooking too.

The cost of running HDB and building HDB far outstrip the high selling price* of HDB. *It is reasonable to say that selling price of HDB is high (too high) when we take into consideration average household incomes. This is the biggest inefficiency I have ever witnessed. Mr Mah and the whole ruling party should be fired.

HDB is run by whom PAP. As it should be all the management who has been running HDB should be held responsible and tender in their resignations with immediate effect.

This is the natural process of accountability. But hey, I forgot this is Singapore where everything wrong or mistakes done by PAP managed is normally let off with a mere slap. don’t do it again. Ok let’s move one. It is one of those things!

Then HDB should close down and another be set up in its place cos it’s run by incompetent people payed extreme high wages and said to be the cream ala cream of people specially chosen by the government.

Where’s the transparency in all of this. This and others yet to surface will be good election issues. I look forward to the day of election where ministers will loose and who knows even the PM might even loose. Now that will be an eye opener to all singaporeans and the world to see that Singaporeans have finally woken up and decided that there is a need for CHANGE!

HDB loses money Temasek loses money. You call these elite ?? Pay them top dollar and they can’t perform, should sack the ceo.

I believe we have the only monopoly in the world that loses money.

Or is it the only lying monopoly in the world that ‘loses’ money?

Actually HDB has done a good job, just that no body is aware of it.

It is the greatest machine of contraceptive, out there to sterilize people who cannot make enough money to procreate.

HDB price itself affordable to a certain class. For those below, hell to you if you dare marrying or worse procreating.

Before LKY has his graduate mama scheme, SDU differentiated with SDS. After all these proof to be too eugenics, then we have the “affordable HDB” scheme.

Get it, everyone, HDB is SS einsatzgruppen or gestapo of Nazi PAP, all out to make those poor, stupid unfit barren.

Give them kudos, they are doing fine.

how much money is received by HDB by allowing Starhub and Singtel to earn money from residents in HDB homes?

TOC and Mr Leong, can u guys organize a workshop (with panel experts) to discuss what those numbers mean and what they potentially (mis)represent, with the intention to submit a petition to the imperial gahmen to seek clarification & further investigation.

We have been talking about this subject 10 years ago. At this rate, (where there are more questions than answers), I won’t be surprised if we are still talking about the same thing ten years down the road.

HDB should “EnBloc” its office in Toa Payoh and the old one in Bukit Merah to some private investor.
Home Affordability 101:
If cannot afford to operate in mature estate, move to non-mature estate lah. No money still so choosy, still want to choose good fengshui, near MRT, near Interchange? Mah Bow Tan Gu Gu.

This is getting really interesting…..say for example, if HDB/MDS reports $2B earnings, they will kana public fury, so they decide to instead report $2B loss, anyhow, they still kana public fury……. I love it when the garmen always shoots itself in both feet, hack they should shoot their own ass as well.

We have to thank the MSM for reporting this, now everyone knows the Housing Dam Board is trying pull a fast one on us…….

I still love the classic, mother of all, “Singaporeans are stupid” reason – raising GST to help the poor……..HAHAHA.

Well the thing is we have a lot of ignorant fellow citizens who do not use the internet, believe it or not.

My very own mother indignantly defended HDB over dinner. She said it must have been all that lift upgrading that cost so much money.

At the end of the day, when LKY recently predicted that the next election should not be a problem, I think he knew that a good proportion of the electorate is still internet illiterate.

Yes, in the income chart, there has got to be a sales proceeds of flats, and shouldn’t be missed because it is arguably the most critical element. I like the questions posed by the writer. When you are a minister (+ your fat direct reports) being paid millions for running a housing development function, putting up the numbers and explaining them spontaneously (not with a planned script) one by one is the least you can and should do, because almost all numbers here are material.
Either that or I’ll give the finance minister the opportunity to explain, but don’t give further perception that the numbers cannot be trusted or cannot be interpreted.
So looks like we didn’t have just an accounting problem, we had a RECRUITMENT problem in the first place.

aiyoyo

last time 3room flat $20000, now $250000,

still at a loss? cant figure out…

aiyoyo

If the report is true, then somebody has to beheaded for losing so much money and to cut cost to save itself from going bankrupt. But at the end, it’s still unbelievable that so much money has been lost!

Buyers of HDB are screwed (by the high price), sellers of HDB are screwed (by the losses). Then who gained? Fingers must point to the contractors and material suppliers and middle men/women. So have they overcharged or what? Are there not enough contractors & suppliers to compete for lower prices & better quality? If there are, where is the 3-quote system to get the best deal?

If a business with ready customers from the whole nation queing for you, paying beyond their reach for the price, and you can still make a loss, somewhere something must have gone wrong. Problem is again, no accountability is needed from the boss.

Does the boss of HDB has any links with these contractors & suppliers? He does not need to answer for his big loss in running HDB and on top of that, get subsidised, so who is to say he has not paid the contractors & suppliers anything they ask?

Absurd! Isn’t PUBLIC housing supposed to be NON-PROFIT?

Should be earn less $2 Billion not losses $2 Billion

If and when a housing monopoly loses money(deficit), then it only goes to show that it was/is BADLY managed and the MANAGER?MANAGEMENT must be replaced, if not hanged la…..

patriot.

HDB people create some magical illusions for us to see?

Costs of building a HDB flat
Land- the singapore land, buy from SLA. How much you pay?
Buildings-contracted out to contractors- pay for contruction- lowest bidder gets projects.
Development charges
Legal fees

HDB sell the flat ( at inflated prices- market pricing of resale flat less subsidy).
Selling price of flats – Costs= Profit

The resale flats’ prices have skyrocketed (low supply- high demand).
What are the real costs of building flats? HDB cannot give a clear simple answer.
Create smoke and tell you , they are losing money.
They must think , we singaporeans are stupid.

108) aiyoyo on November 5th, 2009 4.44 pm aiyoyo

last time 3room flat $20000, now $250000,
still at a loss? cant figure out…

Who is the biggest LIARS!

CPIB should be keenly interested to find out what the hell is happening at HDB HQ and Ministry of National Development.

How can HDB be losing billions of dollars every year without arousing the suspicion or curiosity of those in authorities for so many years?

I still cannot forget the case of the late Mr Teh Cheng Wan (then Minister for National Development) who committed suicide while there was a CPIB investigation going on against him for corruption.

I just wonder why the authorities are keeping quiet and not responding to such ridiculous unfathomable HDB losses?

Nobody should blame me for thinking like that because the Chief of HDB and the Minister responsible for HDB have not been sacked or at least censured by the PM or the Cabinet. How come? I think this very strange and abnormal, taking into consideration the high standards of accountability and responsibility demanded by our PMs of past and present.

How can a non-corrupt Singapore not be bothered to dig deeper to ascertain the REAL reason for such unprecedented and unfathomable losses suffered by the HDB so that remedial actions can be taken to prevent further losses in subsequent years?

Perhaps, the Opposition Leaders such as Mr Chiam and Mr Low should send an urgent email to the Parliament to demand a Commission of Inquiry to be convened immediately, on an urgent basis. For that matter, any of the 84 Members of Parliament, NCMP or NMP should have the initiative to ask for such Inquiry to be convened immediately.

As HDB has been incurring these losses for years, therefore, in the pubic interests, there should not be any more delays to investigate deeper into such abnormal, strange, suspicious and/or unbelievable happenings in a country that boasts of its extraordinary talents who are paid the world’s highest salaries.

As this has nothing to do with national security, there should be no secrets to hide from the 90% of Singaporeans who live in HDB flats, and who may be blamed for the HDB losses either directly or indirectly.

Since this matter concerns 90% of Singaporeans who live in HDB flats, only a full scale public commission of inquiry can meet the satisfaction of the people.

Action please.

Simple mathematics, buy $1, sells at $10 after minusing $15 to be given back to who we all know, how much left? stupid morons you think singaporeans are all IDIOTS!

Good call Post #117 !

Maybe the Late Teh Cheang Wan is back to haunt HDB, his former baby.

Has he risen from his grave ?

patriot

Yes, very good call at post #117. How can we do it? I don’t think we can rely on the MPs or NMPs anymore on anything. How can we be active citizens to improve our country? Any suggestion?

Dear Kenneth

http://books.google.com/books?id=sIZHRDSGiDMC&pg=PA119&dq=IDF+officer+candidate&lr=#v=onepage&q=IDF%20officer%20candidate&f=false

The above links you to how the best army in the world (our teacher as well) IDF, Israeli Defence Force form its officer.

It took them 5 years to graduate as a PC.

Because IDF believe that only officer can only earn the trust of men and comrade working together that duration of time. Else, it would have an ineffective fighting unit, (maybe a unit full of air-con BGs).

We learn many stuff from IDF and why not follow them on their promotion system as well, since they are a success proven system. Whereas we can only speculate and boast how good our BGs without firing even a shot at enemy.

Mindef knows best what is the reason.

if they lost 2bn, whre then have this money went to?

Losing $2,000,000,000 is a very big sum of money for a statutory board that is producing homes year in and year out. And HDB not only earns from the sales of properties. It also earns from housing loans, legal fees, stamps fees, etc.

Therefore, for HDB to lose $2 billion, it must be a police case. This case must either be reported to the police, the accountant general, the Parliament, or the CPIB for further investigations.

It should not be condoned. Otherwise, next year HDB may lose $4 billions and year after that $8 billions, and so on. Who knows?

Better to do something now before it is too late.

[...] – TOC: HDB Annual Report : Deficit has doubled – really? [Recommended] – Feed Me To The Fish: HDB: So where the hell did the money go to? – The Temasek [...]

In the end its same shit different day (SSDD)

A rough guide showing much is paid to subcontracters for building of HDB flats, refer to: http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/09/cost-of-building-hdb-flats-finally-an-answer/

Accordingly, it seems to suggest that marketing costs, employee salary overheads and rent have eaten up the 143% profit margin from each HDB unit and thus there’re losses.

So now we know how much it cost to maintain the HDB management?

Or are they taking into account the cost of all the roads and facilities built in the neighbourhood and the land cost that it occupied? But shouldnt that be taken into the account of the ministry of developement? Best guess is that money flows from one stat board to another ministry. And who is going to audit this internal flow of finance?

No wonder the cost of HDB is going up.

Imagine if HDB loses money then how are the many upgraded lifts going to be maintained? Expect the following to be raised :
a) HDB Parking Fees.
b) Service & Conservancy Fees
c) HDB Rentals.

Maybe if LSH runs for Presidency and wins it, he can have all his questions answered.

blade @126: “marketing costs, employee salary overheads and rent have eaten up the 143% profit margin…”

Marketing – HDB is a monopoly business, almost every single Sporean family has to buy from HDB. What marketing do they need to do? What marketing cost are they talking about?

Rent – HDB rents what from who? Can HDB rent from anybody else to cut cost? What rental cost are they talking about?

Salary overheads – Either HDB pays too well or the staff are so inefficient they have to hire so many. They should take a leaf from big private developers in big countries overseas. They sell cheaper and make more profit.

Have you guys heard the lame news on Punggol 21 yet? Let me copy and paste. Waaaa costs down, constructions down, but everything also go up and they r making a loss. Hey, they r working hard 2 appease our anger now! But, we r bitterly angry becos, more lies again to cover their previous lies >.<

National Development Minister Mah Bow Tan, said: "New HDB estates look like private condominiums, but don’t cost as much as private condominiums. New innovative construction methods like pre—fabrication reduces cost and construction time. And that’s one of the reasons’ why we are able to keep the cost of construction down."

Ya hor, how can HDB run a deficit??? What’s this?? All our $$ gone into the drain!

I’d say we campaign to get Sze Hian to run HDB. He has given so much thought and anlaysis to this and get him to do a better job! We need affordable housing (pls drive the prices loooow) and we want our government to make money!! Sze Hian, I support you!

I am so so TOUCH and crying while typing this message!!! now I realize how “CARING” our moron govt is!!!! so “happy” to know that our pigeon hole is so so heavily subsidize. This MORON govt is known for their generosity throughout the world wat!!! didn’t hear that TH and GIC donated $Billions to Banks and Companies all over the world meh! aiyoh if don’t have this stupid moron papies in the world, THIS WORLD will collapse!!!hahaha

Well, as long as the people continue to accept. there is nothing more to say.

Of coz you’re deficit has doubled you fool.  MILLIONS from your sales has been chanelled to pay your MASTER HOBBIT !

if they can still accept, start the elections now.

Now HDB is also in the dirty business of declaring losses.

That means HDB prices is going up up and away soon.

Why is there no election yet?

Time to vote for accountability.

The Real problem I see is the HDD residents are Apathetic to demand for answers.
Not the other way round.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZfenD0vyjc

Hello ‘There’s your problem’,

The above video may serve to prove for you residents in this part of sg are apathetic enough to Tolerate and Accept bird shitting all over their cars everyday and Noise they produce everyday at the following times:

1. 6 am
2. 6pm
3. midnight

Its 3 times a day ! HDB residents here in the video can tolerate the very loud noise they produce everyday affecting their sleep and thus their energy level required for work and the shit they pour onto their cars everyday. Residents can call for help but do not do so! dunno what to do ! or BOCHAP to do anything about anything.

Proven beyond reasonable doubts. APATHY Really Exists!!!

So, should they complain ?

Yes, while the problem may or may not be with the system, what is definitely true is that many are Apathetic. They do not want to demand.