Hi PRC Scholar,

First, I like to say you english totally impressed me. I thought you are a singaporean. Are you?

You said : “The real question is: Is Singapore a better place without these foreigners? What would be your plan if you were MM Lee? Is that plan feasible?”

Firstly, i like to examine your question.
Your question could be more precise.
For example, if i ask you
Is China a better country without USA?
What i mean is such questions are not precise enough.
Its too broad.
It can be more meaningful.

Of course foreign talents, REAL Talents that is, is good for singapore.
But everything has Pros and Cons.

The issue is HOW MANY. If too many come to work in China and china happens to be as small as singapore, how do you as citizen of China feel when so many come in so easily? The foreigner is grateful for what locals may regard as lower pay . The employer saves money on labor. This is win-win for foreigner and employer. when too many comes in, what happens to locals? You can say they should work harder. But their wages may also be lowered due to ample supply of cheaper labor. Why would employers want to hire singaporeans unless no choice assuming foreigners can do the job?

If only you were a singaporean and I am you the scholar, would you know how it feels.

Yes, no one owes us a living. But as citizen, what happens when the playing field is so leveled that being a citizen has no advantage in securing their rice bowl in a land they have to defend?

If Singaporeans need not do National service and or are able to compete more fairly ( not just an additional $100 GST package top-up or a $8/h for your RT ) with the “foreign talents” , I think 80% of this foreign issue would have been solved.

it is a kick in my face when I know Indian students who are sponsored by our government for their studies are getting lower grades than me and are called “foreign talents” in university. What I got monthly as allowance in NS is lesser than what these students are getting as ” living expenses”.

We need foreign workers but less of foreign talents.

we admit and agreed that we cant do without foreign workers.

however,we can do less with foreign talents.

Our own local talents can do the job of the foreign talents.

we are worried about our local talents.we have alot of undergraduates.

would they be able to find jobs upon graduating?

they are disadvantaged.foreign talents would easily agreed to take a lower pay .employer having to choose a local and a foreign grad,would choose the later because the saving.

we also do not need low to middle skills workers because we also have citizens who can fill it up.

government should not confuse the citizens.we are concern with the foreign talents rather than foreign workers.

do what the romans does
or what the europeans did durin the 70s/80s/90s….
they were shortage of SKILLED cheap labours such as the nursin/hotels industries around europe..i was recruited into the hotels trade for i am the BEST as a waitin staff..i knows there are 7 spoons to be laid on a dinnin table..tried askin a china persons why do they needs 7 spoons..they wouldn’t have a clue @ all…you can employed a foreign talent to serve food and paperworks by night..but you cannot employed a foreign worker to carry bags and luggages…any body can do that..who needs an iso900002 cert just to carry baggages?
in singapoor..obviousLEE leekuanyew think different..he lumped all foreign talents as talents except to be mp/ministers….
even the europeans gst/vat can be separated in any shops..takeouts/medicinces/blah blah blah do not have gst/vat incurred…in singapoor our government made the excuses of havin too many ^loopholes^/costins to separate this and that… except our prince the prime minister wanted the semiconductor industries to be GST exempted sayins we have to compete with samsung inc…wherelse in true facts chartered industries which also made semiconductors chips happenned to be owned and run by his wife…how convenient har? so when simwonghoo also wants to classified his soundcards to be gst exempted..treasury dept says nocando…
why is it suddenly the death estates duty is lifted soon to be passed by parliaments? is somebody so riched in properties is dyin soon? do not want to pay estates duties taxes?
you tell me lark…
p.s. don’t have to poll the peasants…they all already have the answers!!!

Thank you AAA. It is good to have another perspective on the issue.

One interesting point you made is the comparison between Singapore and Shanghai. Internal migration also takes place within China and there is migration to the cities in the same way that Singapore experience migration from overseas.

Perhaps you are right, all cities in the world experience migration- be it internal or external. And due to our lack of countryside, we can’t really see things in perspective. But internal and external migration have very different political connotations too. People can accept internal migration much more than external migration because of the shared national identity.

4) iaintabloomintourist on November 22nd, 2009 4.05 am

As I see it, the Estate Duties lifted in favour of the rich people is not only a way to escape tax by the rich

BUT

more importantly the revelation of the extent and details of assets
owned by the deadly rich – in time to come, these will include all the millionaire
ministers and top civil servants, plus those top Temasek, GIC and GLC Directors, CEOs, Chairmen, etc.

When one submits the Estate Duties documents to Inland Revenue Dept, one has to disclose all the assets and income, both tangible and intangible, in great details. (I have experienced this when my mom died; that is why I know.)

When details like these are revealed, many secrets can be dug out easily, by researching files, documents and records in the Inland Revenue Dept.

Perhaps, in anticipation that the PAP may not rule forever, and in future a new government may decide to dig out more facts about the previous administration, it is wise and prudent to take the necessary measures now when power is still in their hands. Otherwise, it would be very inconvenient and perhaps ugly, when many skeletons were to be be discovered by the Opposition.

Those words above were what my stupid brain has analysed, regarding the issue of the Estate Duties exemption. There is no need to believe me at all. Just take them as rubbish lah.

(TOC Editor, Very sorry, I had digressed from the topic. However, this is in public interest and there is no such thread or article written about this topic, so I do not know where to post this, that is why I post it here. Hope you do not delete. Thanks.)

PS: Perhaps, TOC writers can write on this topic “The Wisdom of Escaping the Estate Duties” in a future date?

Don’t rock the boat – vote Peace & Prosperity (PAP).

When Singaporeans travel, they see much of the scenery and shopping. When foreigners come to Singapore, they think more of the “self”. Sure, what is good for the country may not be good for ourselves. Can’t expect people to be magnanimous, generous and embrace foreign talents with open arms when they are viewed as a threat to their rice bowl and comfort. The gap between expectations and reality equals disappointment.

PRC scholar : you have to understand that the noises made on cyberspace is not representative of thinking of all Singaporeans. The successful ones are too busy or satisfied to complain or worry about foreign talents taking away their jobs, husbands, space, etc.

Just as China is full of diversity, so is Singapore despite our short history. You may have noticed only a small number of brasque and uncultured folks but that does not mean we are all the same.

As for shortage of gifts to bring home, yes, China is now the world’s largest manufacturer. However, don’t forget that, Singaporeans have donated goodies and money to relatives in China from the 1950s – 80s. You may be too young to appreciate or value the shared cultures and history between our people. We are happy that people in China are doing well internationally but don’t be quick to judge and forget.

## 6) Discovery Channel on November 22nd, 2009 5.32 am

“As I see it, the Estate Duties lifted in favour of the rich people is not only a way to escape tax by the rich BUT more importantly the revelation of the extent and details of assets owned by the deadly rich – in time to come, these will include all the millionaire ministers and top civil servants, plus those top Temasek, GIC and GLC Directors, CEOs, Chairmen, etc.”

Excellent point about Estate Duty exemption.

Obviously, for the immediate future, it is meant to protect somebody high up in Singapore who has a lot of skeletons to hide.

Just speculating here that he could be an Old Man in his 80s highly admired by AAA ??

A Whiter than white reputation on the outside but blacker than night if all his skeletons were uncovered ??

Think about it…

The author wrote a good piece of balance perspective. As a PRC citizen is commendable.

Unfortunately, his view is that of a foreigner. In Life, anything that is over the limit is deemed disastrous. Our S’pore being small, with 1.3 million foreigners, is way beyond our simple imagination. At the end of the day, our government pride themselves with brilliant brains, but failed to see the social and demographic upheavel
of such influx. The gahmen’s contention is to make money out of the levies collected every month from each foreigners employed. They pretended to be short-sighted on this issue and let the logistics to work themseves out. How sad!

With honesty, may I ask, do you really want to stay put after six years of bond as a foreigner. Your own China has vast opportunities for a graduate like you. It is only the lower educated foreigners, be it Chinese or Bangladesh or Thai workers that are here in great numbers. With their behaviours, characters and social etiquettes so different from an average S’porean, many of us are quandary to accept such. We may try our best to tolerate.

It all boils down to the government’s bad policy of approving any Tom, Dick and Harry in from other countries,

It has forever altered the simple basic life of the ordinary S’poreans. Do the Ministers and policymakers care a damn? NO! because they all never in their ‘high mighty class’ will come into contact with any foreign workers. They are the elites of society.
So, who suffers? The poor neglected citizens of Singapore.

We hold PAP accountable for this sad state of affair for the influx of too many FWs.

If you look carefully, he said they need to serve 5 years bond to any local company in Singapore. This is when they decide to leave for US or back home, probably by the 4th year, some never come back to Singapore(athough bonded) since they found jobs elsewhere. People are selfish, i dont blame them for looking to the best option, which is not Singapore as you said we are in between. Unless you have no choice….

He wrote reasonably.. But imagine, if China has 50% population of Chinese from Singapore, how would they feel? And 50% speaks English to their Chinese speaking and understanding population?

MM Lee was a good leader but he has changed drastically in the last 5 to 10 years. China is modelling but have its own version of Singapore, not following it exactly. In provincial elections, democratic election is in place to select the best, without terms and conditions. For example, speed traps must be in the open (public view) but in Singapore speed traps are hidden from public view. It shows China is moving towards a more open society than Singapore. Singapore is nothing compared to China, 84 MPs on a small island of 5M. China has 1B people, to manage such a big country, we cannot compare our local politicians to China.

I also feel strange in Singapore. A Chinese Singaporean who can speak Chinese but tries to speak English (until she had no choice but to say in Mandarin) to China Chinese. I am not sure for what, Singapore has this strange values, speaking English means more superior. i speak Chinese to the check in China Chinese at the airport but they still continue to speak to me in China accented English which I found them difficult to understand. I made them understand what i wanted but they kept blabbering. So I guess its a human thing, face values?

Anyone who can live here long enough will integrate but he would begin to see the bonuses and the flaws of our systems. Depends on what you are after, either you stay or you live.

Singapore is basically an economical system, with little respect for culture or history (most are basic or pretentious efforts), maybe Singapore is an island, the crux is to survive. This is why Singapore students except doing well in school, does not know much about culture or history. I know European, American and Chinese histories well, because there was once a time, Singapore histories included world history. But this subject was taken off and made way for local history (which means no history). Another reason is also being political, they did not want students to be influenced and a lot of facts were changed in the text books unnoticeably. I took my dad’s text books and read them and I also bought books when I was overseas. I had to tell you, when I am in China, I discussed 13 dynasty and how 1st dnasty came about, NOBODY knows and you believe that was China!

Singaporeans are marrying foreign brides because they can meet their expectations easily. China and Vietnam are growing countries and their girls are not so demanding, perhaps still possess traditional values of serving and family. This is a big problem not just in Singapore but major cities throughout the world. Japanese marrying brides from Taiwan and China. Americans and Europeans getting girls from Philippines.

While reasons have been splashed across the newspapers many many times over the years on the reduced procreation rate and some who cashed out their CPF due to migrating out of singapore, how does these shortfall lead to the need attract so MANY MORE new immigrants and foreigners?

To me, it just does not tally. In general, it is justifiable that if baby birth rates reduce and people give up singapore citizenship, it is logical to ADD to a MINUS in order to mitigate the situation. BUT!

there is a difference between IMPORTING or Having too much influx.

If anyone cannot see the difference its just a shame to him.

Why need so many new citizens also? This seems to me especially obvious after the last election. This could be coincidental.

eg. 40% based on 100. If the principle is increased to 200, what happens? the % may be changed substantially.

So, the Author has phrased a tricky question where it seems logical that if foreign talents can contribute and do contribute, by this alone, its Justified for their influx. What is missing in the question is to mention the EXTENT of Influx.

To make it clearer, if you take panadol for fever, it can Contribute to your feeling better. What happens if you take 20 panadol at 1 time? Feel High? Not really. most likely need to send in to A&E. This illustration should wake up any naive children.

PRC scholar said : ” What would be your plan if you were MM Lee? Is that plan feasible?””

Very easy question.
I would allow only the number needed to make up for the birth rate and make up for the exodus of citizens who have given up citizenship.

This figure is small compared to the 3 million coming in. A very easy thing to achieve.

This is feasible. The long answer is more difficult to explain to you as you may not be familiar with singapore policies and situation.

So, I would only allow what is needed.
The most important thing in this process is

form a committee or organization or certification body that APPROVES and CERTIFIES a foreigner is a TALENT. The body must be 100% INDEPENDENT and held 100% fully accountable for their certification. If and when someone complains about the incompetence of a talent allowed in , a panel should be formed to investigate and of course this panel has to be totally INDEPENDENT which I feel that could be an issue but can be possible if i manage this task.
It depends on who does the job.

I suggest having international independent organization do this.

So, your question is too easy.

Is there levelled playing field when

1. foreigner workers can earn more than they do back home with what is regarded as ‘lower’ labor cost to employer in singapore? Does this not make wages go down given the extent of influx? Does this affect singaporean’s employability? totally unfounded?

2. singaproeans need to pay and pay the very expensive and overpriced and valued flats. Do these foreigners need to ? So are we asking singaporeans to accept the same level of wages as foreigners in order to remain wage competitive? Does this make sense? How to retire?

There is only 1 way out. Period.

The writer seemed to have missed essential points posed by many on this forum :
(a) Context : we knew all along foreigners were immigrating and in our midsts for many years. Yet what triggered the recent reactions from citizens ? I urge him to find out more from this website before posting his article.
(b) Loyalty : Loyalty and sense of belonging to a country does not come free. The way the writer argues gave the impression he hasn’t been reading much in this related aspect in the website. Also, think in terms of a China context on differences between a foreigner and local there in terms of ‘attractiveness’. He is not even aware that there is an imaginary cap in a foreigner’s salary in their capital province to begin with.
Doesn’t make a difference even if the article came from a scholar.

Going forward, would Singapore be a better place without the PAP (in particular this current batch of “leaders”) being in charge ?

We never say we dont need foreigners, its about government lack of control of the huge influx of foreigners. We have too many foreigners here,

i am not against foreigners per se.
I am not against FT per se.
I am not agreeable that there should be so many of them.

I also do not believe this author is a PRC scholar.
Anyone can say they are PRC scholar using an unreachable email with no 2 way communication.

The burden of proof is on you ‘PRC Scholar’.

i invite you to prove beyond reasonable doubt what you claimed. Else I shall dismiss your article as untrustworthy if not without credibility.

Like to know also, have you applied for citizenship? Given you have been here so many years, i assume you more than qualify for citizenship as a ’scholar’. So, why have you not taken it up? Again, i do not expect that you will respond given the way you emailed to TOC. Afterall, your identity is also questionable. I also assume you are at least a PR. Why do you not decide to Quit from China?

so many questions. Why would you not respond to any?

16) sgcycnic on November 22nd, 2009 9.29 am
“Going forward, would Singapore be a better place without the PAP (in particular this current batch of “leaders”) being in charge ? ”

To answer you, we need to 1st consider has USA/ TW / France / Malaysia collapsed when they change ruling parties if not president.

Is political system not considered Stable in these countries?
If there is election, does this = political instability if people are allowed to choose?
Does changing of parties = political instability?

Did TW economy collapsed with new ruling party?

I accept Singapore needs foreign talents. But:

(1) There should be a cap, and the present foreign and PR population is way way beyond the limit.

(2) There should be stringent quality control.

No CONVICTS or EX-CONVICTS
No “talents” that fill up a position which can be taken over by a local. and i don’t mean suppressing wages so that you can claim “no locals want this job”. as you pay yourselves extraordinary salaries, you should at least pay toilet cleaners comparable to what other toilet cleaners are getting in first world countries.

(3) More privileges for Singaporeans, that will encourage PRs to convert too

The writer AAA gave a good overview view from a FOREIGNER’s perspective, albeit a foreigner who has benefited from the Singapore system, and who feels grateful for it.

From his writing, it looks like he has been influenced by inputs from the mass media (both in China and in Singapore) which are the state’s propaganda machines.

I also detect a certain degree of naiveness and that could be why he is singing praises about Singapore.

Perhaps, as a guest and a scholarship-holder beneficiary, it is not wise for him to project more of the negative aspects of Singapore which he might have experienced or observed.

Anyway, the most important thing is feeling. He cannot feel how we local Singaporeans feel. He did not experience how we and our forefathers have slogged and slogged for the past 50 years to help build up this tiny island Paradise of ours. And now so many opportunists and free-loaders are rushing in to grab an easy piece of cake for themselves because of PM Lee’s stupid “Economic Progress At All Cost” policy, which incidentally also includes the opening of the flood-gate for all sorts of foreigners to come in with ease.

(The latest Bukit Timah Freak Flood of once in 50 years could be a warning sign – a symbolic event to show the amount of devastation that can happen to the local residents.)

His feeling is not different from that of those staying in the ivory towers for too long, not in tune with the ground.

“You are definitely smart people, but just my advise, you need more “culture”. For example, it’s very hard for me to find a Singaporean student to discuss about Chinese History, or Europeans History, in a decent way. It seems that your system make your “values” limited. It’s also not easy to find gifts to bring home for my relatives.”

My dear PRC scholar, such is our culture- an attitude of looking ahead, striving for progression, and not having too much focus on the past.

Such is our culture. Who are you to decide that our culture is inadequate? Who are you, as someone who has only been here for a few years, to judge based on your own standards, and criticizre the culture of an entire nation?

Your words seem to connotate that you think your culture is better than ours.

Besides, this culture of praticality was instilled in us by none other than MM Lee, the one whom you called “a great leader”. So on one hand you admire him, yet on the other hand you criticise his policies and their effects on the citizens.

It does not make sense to me.

Here we go again,another PRC scholar who writes if Singapore is a better place without foreigners – this is a double-edged sword,damned if we do,damned if we don’t,why is it in “UNIQUELY SINGAPORE” we have a foreign legionnaire who writes an article,it gets posted online,not on MSM,this does not happen in ANY other nation or country!

Thanks to all the lax govt FT policies & brainwashing propaganda,we have to read all this articles to ask ourselves,what have we done so far?What have we planned for our future?more good years?more fringe benefits for locals?hell yes!Economic growth & GDP go hand in hand,who should reap the rewards? The people,the general public,i am referring to true blue S’poreans who are slugging it out day & night!

It takes two hands to clap,it takes only one hand to slap the FT policy our dear MIW have brought it upon the locals,Singapore needs foreigners,yes,only on the ground that the jobs provided are NOT able to be fulfilled by the locals or we need technical expertise from other countrymen,is that the case now?No!

My fellow Singaporeans,the time has come for change,it has to,time is running out,we have been talking online for ages,when are we going to put it into action?A beautiful gal once told me,”A man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do!”If he can’t satisfy his woman,she will leave him for a better man!” – the same goes for us,if we can’t take proper action against tyranny,fascism,despotism,if we don’t try to fight our battles for real democracy,freedom,peace & happiness,our fellow Singaporeans will leave this state once & for all for greener pastures,our home will be a fallen haven,this is John Connor,if you are reading this,welcome to the resistance!Over & out!

The problem lies with the policies and not any foreign individuals. There are many unpopular policies which result to lots of unhappiness. What you have written do not address the main concern of the locals.

If your scholarship indicates that you must serve 2 yrs of national service as well as 6 years of bond, will you come?

Do you think it make sense for a local to welcome a foreigners in a way that it makes a local worse off? While you study for free, have you ever thought why should so many Singaporean be deprived for an education when a foreigner like you is given a place when there are actually 3 universities in Singapore?

Do you know that locals as young as you are serving National Service and being paid poorly. Do you know that the local will actually start work late as compared to a foreigner like you? These are only one of the many main issues.

Please do not compare what is happening within China to Singapore because Singapore is a country and not part of China.

Why should I be impressed if any stars would want to come to live in Singapore?
Does that sloved all the issue? Hello. Write to make sense please. I am talking about bread and butter issue and not what “super stars”??!!!

Frankly speaking, I see you as a competitor and it is unlikely for me to welcome you here.

“20) KCofS on November 22nd, 2009 10.02 am
I accept Singapore needs foreign talents. But:

(1) There should be a cap”

But does the public know EXACTLY as of the Current day, how many are allowed in already?

Oh, i forgot we rely on the news.

singapore attracted many ‘talents’.
But what kind of talents?
It is such a VAGUE and unclear description.
You say talent means talent?

The spelling champion from usa is a child.
Have singapore attracted any such proteges?

These are no doubt real talents.

2ndly, by allowing talents to come in, does it mean these have no white collar criminal background? How do they check? Based on declaration on a form?
And then after declaration, if any, who certifies these have not committed any crime?

I must say that i do not know any like this. And trust that these come here with clean records. However , this is a Technical Question.

Pregnant? Stand up for your rights at work
Sun, Nov 15, 2009
The Straits Times
By Radha Basu, Senior Correspondent

“MOM received 119 pregnancy-related complaints in the first nine months of this year, the highest since records began in 2004, The Sunday Times reported last weekend. The spike was largely the result of a substantial enhancement in maternity benefits last year which coincided with Singapore’s deepest recession in years. In three-quarters of the cases, the complaints were against small- and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs).

But these numbers may be the tip of the iceberg. While researching the story on dismissals of pregnant women, I spoke to 10 women who said they had been dismissed or unfairly denied their full maternity benefits over the past year. Most said they had documents to substantiate their claims. But only two lodged complaints with MOM.”

http://www.asiaone.com/Business/Office/Ask/Story/A1Story20091113-179673.html

Because of the abundance of foreigners here who are willing to be exploited, employers are discriminating against Singaporeans. Of course, foreigners are bad in they come in such enormous numbers.

Re: “I really admire MM Lee as a great leader in modern Asia. He leads a small country, but he’s been playing big politics…”

Ah Tiong, ah. This Lee Kuan Yew ah, can only considered ‘great’ if got two preconditions to fulfil, lah.

Firsist condition hor:

1. Must city state – real country, he cannot control one;

Then secondsist condition hor, ah tiong,

2. Population must have zero self respect. Like your China, lor. Then only can easily – how they say – manipulate to serve you lor.

Thasswai (That’s why) hor Lee Kuan Yew can modern lidder and big politik.

Hi AAA,

I have spent 6 mths in Shanghai as part of the Global Immersion Program of NTU and I agree with what you wrote about China..

China is immensely rich in culture as compared to Singapore..

For Singaporeans, we are a multi-cultural country and city-state…
Most of us went through the same factory-style education system that really does not place much emphasis on individual racial culture… (That is why FOOD is more impt to us than some monuments…)
Meritocracy and results is the main focus…

With influx of bright young kids from other countries, our youngs faces undue competition and pressure at a young age and it is stifling for their growth.. A little competition is good but OVER-COMPETITION just kills off the spirit to excel when hard work is often not enough when some bright talented people are indeed smarter than you.. There are indeed geniuses around…
I experienced that in NTU in the engineering faculty whereby I think close to 40% are foreigners…

I am not whining about this.. But it is saddening that after graduation, I am saddled with 20k and beyond debts and I need to start to clear them whereas most of the foreign students are debt-free!!! They can thus accept lower pay packages while we natives citizens cannot..

For me, I am the sole breadwinner the moment I graduated and it is a blessing that I managed to complete my university education just as the savings of my family runs out..

As we progress through the stages in life, marriages comes to mind and housing became an issue.. HDB prices has been rising ridiculously over the years but the wages is still pretty stagnant… Despite the crap reasons published in the state propaganda… Natives citizens are aware that the price jump is due to the overwhelming influx of foreigners…

All these and more are the results of the short-sighted policies implemented by the PAP in their chase for GDP growth.. More social problems will surface if the current policies are maintained…. Most Singaporeans are beginning to wonder where is the pride and benefits of being a Singapore citizen when the playing field is heavily skewed against us…

An excellent, well written piece.

I read the article with great discomfort. At first glance, it seems that AAA was trying to soften the blow by praising Singapore to the skies while critising our disregard for foreigners. In actuality, what I gathered from the article was his/her inability to integrate into our society, nor understand Singaporeans and our ‘annoyance’.

The author speaks of a two-way integration and he/she surely understood the migrants that have existed and how we were doing fine before the great influx. The purpose of this article appears to be just another attack on our attitude towards foreigners, guilting us into not doing so when it is just displaced scapegoating.

I’m proud of what I know and what I don’t know. We don’t need someone to throw relativity into the mix and start judging us because to be sure, we don’t care unless we are interested. I don’t need to know the dynasties of China because I’m not interested, and I read about WWII in Europe and European history because I am. To judge us on what we ‘learned’ in school is no better than our current education system. You can be a scholar for all I care, but a mechanic who cares not for academic studies is better than you if he did not judge.

I guess there is no way to get rid of some of these so as to reduce the amount of influx?

then, there is only 1 way out.

by getting rid, i mean filtering out the non-talents from the talented ones.
i love foreigners. just that too many is not good imho. Overcrowding is also an issue.

Hi AAA, Thank U for sharing your view. very much appreciated!

PRC scholar…………just sign up for 1 month army booth camp (if there is such a thing here) before commenting next time.

After the 1 month booth camp (multiply it by 24 months to put things into perspective what sporean men are going thru) then i like to see his views…

SINCITY will be bad as its’ name if it cannot attract foreigners called tourists.

AND

it is worse if it INVADED by foreigner settlers.

patriot

i would agreed to more import of FT when the ground is levelled.

Seem like doing NS and reservist duties are offsetting the Singaporean Male. i would like to suggested that the Government should imposed on all Workers whether they are lcal or foreign in Singapore to do compulsory national service.

Even Ministers and CEOS whether they are FT or LT should also do two weeks of Compulsory Service. Duties for them should be based on the thinking of the lowest mentality and national intergration. In these case, they should be assigned the job of cleaning toilet, wiping table etc etc. LOL

The airlines country code for singapore is , based on a url link, SIN.
http://singapore-sin.airports-guides.com/sin_airport_airlines.html

Talking about airlines, I wonder for all the losses made quarter on quarter for the last many quarters, how is it gonna fund the operations with so much losse?

why don’t AAA the wonderfool scholar from china tell us about guangzhou and shenchen migrations rulin?
is shenchen and guangzhou part of china? if it is so..how come NOT EVERY china poerson can lived and worked in the same two cities if 1 deem 1 desire to try their fortune over there? and last but not least..how come only 1 chinese is ALLOW to live and worked in the 2 same mentioned counties for just up to a 6 years period if you are not so HIGHLEE qualified?
feel free to share ley…
so if comin to singapore to seek your fortunes with the added avantages of bringin your parents/inlaws and siblin over without any REDTAPEs imposed on you..you still not GRATEFOOL enough?
have you ever tried to brin your spouse over to europe if you just managed to attain for a socalled greencard PR status…
try that then come here to GRIEF your unhappiness..
~zhee~

I miss my Singapore of the early 90s when everywhere u turn, you can only see Singaporean faces. Now, the only thing I can think of when i go, “This place is so crowded” and “let’s spot the Singaporean”. It’s not about foreign talent and workers. It’s about the Singaporean identity that is fast becoming extinct. We are being replaced by a whole group of asians we cannot relate to from our childhood.

Is Singapore a better place without foreigners?

If “Singapore” means (i) Singapore born (esp. male) citizens – answer is “no”
(ii) Singapore govt leaders – answer is “yes”

I suppose most Singapore-born citizens would rather have a “lower” standard of living than to feel a sense of injustice due to foreigners.

I feel touched that so many Readers are in a way Representing the People by voicing up issues that matter to the People.

People Representatives can learn a thing or 2 from these Freelancers. Er, I mean they do it for free. Not even part time. Not that People representatives are not voicing up.

I wonder which People Representative voiced up the LEAST? Any one keeping track?

I feel that singapore have many People Representative Calibre talents but are not the People Representatives because they never join political parties and campaign. Its not difficult to voice up for the people.

More such people should be put into parliament to the Benefit of the People.
Go in there and make us proud.

Lou Tee Wu Mak mak mak mak mak ……!

Dear PRC scholar, you can always talk to me about Chinese and Western history. I’m a true blue Singaporean by the way. My current interest is Roman Empire versus Han Dynasty, the two great super power of their age.

Just like what you said about Chinese being diverse, our little island held also a diverse group of people. Not every Singaporean are just interested in making money or learning something for tangible benefits. We too are pretty diverse.

Unfortunately, our government’s heavy handed policies have caused great misery to those who do not follow the path they dictate.

Foreigners owe Singaporeans a living. Singaporeans built our economy and foreigners came with an empty hand to steal the cake. Then they told us they are here temporarily and have a choice to decide whether to stay or leave when their time is due. On the other hand, Singaporeans have no choice even though many people wanted to emigrate from this 3rd world systems developed by PAP. There is no such thing call fairplay because many foreigners are unwilling to give up their lucrative PR status.

@6
wow, that was a perspective that I never did consider. But you are right with regards to the Estate Duties. There are ways to avoid it, considering the rich have the access to lawyers and accountants.

@8
I’ve seen my share of fellow Singaporeans who go overseas and behave like pompous fools while being a guest of another country. The “self before others” mentality is not limited to just the foreigners. We have a fellow citizen who had called a politician “flashing pan” behaved that way when he was presented an award. Also not to mention those Singaporean companies who under the influence of the cheaper, better and faster propaganda drive (thanks yamamoto for shedding light on that issue) will be hard pressed to choose singaporean workers. Are they concerned for their fellow singaporeans?

And so it would seem that when the opinions differed, it started veering off just at the tip of the question “would singapore be better off without foreigners”

But before i get into posting my opinion, i would like to tell AAA this, by immersing yourself into Singaporean society, it still did not allow you to get into our culture.

We do not believe in the idea of class. We are not indoctrinated in the communist ideals, Singapore has the structure of the greater mortals, elites, lesser mortals and the peasants. Without further explanation, since if you had 5 years and still do not understand that concept, then it would be a waste of time to do so. That Singapore society is even more complicated than China would be an understatement! To think AAA has lived here for 5 years he should have known better.

Food in China might taste better than food in Singapore, but I hate to break it to you, All the food that is nice, has made in Malaysia pasted on all of it. True story! And also except for Indian Rojak that can kill (issue still debatable), the only time where people get seriously ill is from consumption of products manufactured in China.

There are also claims that when your fellow countryside men come into Singapore looking for work and get hired as cheaper alternatives, our income gap grows. But that is unimportant to both your countrymen and mine, since we should grow GDP and that the income gap will resolve itself miraculously.

I am not sure about you AAA, but there was once, the promise of a Swiss Standard of living, if we were to be patient and follow through and abide by the meticulous planning by the greater mortals and elites. Then came the sudden realization that it would be replaced by the Italian standard. Diversity we can accept, but understand this, we did not come from truly humble beginnings like your Great Leap Forward.

Culture is something quite intangible, your belief structure and mine is totally different. Maybe the only commonality is they exist. The differences between yours and mine is a lost cause when put before a debate. The starting point between the two are different. You can ask any Singaporean a similar question about the culture in Singapore and you will get differing answers, but that does not validate the idea that Singapore does not have enough culture.

Lastly to AAA question, I do not know if Singapore will be better place without foreigners. It is not the case where we are tough on immigration and thus, be able to restrict the foreigners from coming in. That Singapore will be a better place with foreigners is still a debatable one though.

Curious

I am sure the writer is fully aware of the current BIG loophole in the scholarships granted to PRC students……..

There is no real bond…..a PRC scholar is free to leave S’pore if he/she cannot find a suitable job in S’pore within 6 months. Whereas all S’poreans under govt scholarship MUST definitely serve their bond (i.e. jobs will be assigned to them)

Hobson’s Choice. No choice lah.
Any intelligent schoolboy, best in S’pore, Johor and Batam, knows the problem.
By the turn of 2030 if nothing is done, due to persistent low birth rates, then we are destined to disappear, especially the Chinese S’poreans.
Where will the State revenue continue to come from to pay public servants, infrastructures, etc., when most of this category are in fact the private sector – State paymasters?
How, with an aged population of 25% by 2030? So where to find the no-subsidies, deligent, etc., labor to replace the dead, migrants and negative birth rates?
Replace we MUST or this tiny boat will slowly but surely sink.
Malaysians? The Chinese & Malays & Indians who can come have already come. The bulk of the Malays won’t, given their free handouts, subsidies, special favours, etc. Moreover, the Chinese are dying out fast in numbers there. The Malaysian government isn’t doing anything abt it. Many Indians are already here mainly in the security & shipyard business.
India Indians – immigrants already beyond their their proportion. With more and given their cultural caste baggage can spell tension within itself and without the circle.
China Chinese – ethnically similar to majority S’poreans. Most are hardworking and independent and are perceived as a threat by some rather than an asset. They don’t receive handouts from the State.
So what the fuss? The ethnic proportion of Singapore will be maintained regardless of migration.
Maybe we shd import more ang mohs over. Now that the US and Europe are in recession. Their numbers are growing and many have married our local girls as well. Tall, burly and handsome wat. Locals where got fight. Tom Cruise leh.
Then, I think we will all shut up and move on. Afetr all our locals won’t dare take them on and are inherently more than accomodating towards these people given our former colonial mentality & background.
Btw, any solutions?

Like poster 1 and the rest, I am in awe of your english. Not even Singaporeans can write in such perfect english >.>

My gf is also a PRC scholar and she learnt english as her first subject but the way she writes english is more proper and not this “Singaporean style of english”. Moreover she would never write Btw, it made no sense to her and other PRCs.

And if you are a PRC scholar, u mustnt study in Sg to get the scholarship. So how do you manage to write in Singaporean English >.>

In short, you are so fake to me >.>

Yes, you can allow a limited number of foreigners in.
Not free for all. come and get it mentality.
What are the criteria for allowing them in?

Foreigners like PR and new citizens that do not like Singapore.
you can go back where you came from.
Why come to Singapore?
If not for the jobs and money, you would not come to Singapore.
If not for the money for value education, you would not come to Singapore.
if not for the good security, you would not come to Singapore.
if not for the clean water,good environment, you would not come to Singapore.

Why come in and enjoy the fruits of our labour? You can make your own in your countries.
Why?

[...] Strangers in a Strange Land – TOC: Is Singapore a better place without foreigners? [...]

“Is Singapore a better place without foreigners?”

This is a leading question a cunning lawyer would use to trap witnesses to answer in the way he wants them to answer. And either way they answer, they are trapped.

And AAA, like so many others above, I also believe that you are a FAKE FT!

So all your efforts in writing this load of bulls is nothing but a scam to me.

Hi TOC,

Here I am. I can prove to you I am a PRC scholar, but there is no need. Some of us can speak good and proper English, and I know some fellow PRC students who speak better English than I do. I got A+ once in essay writing in university. But I don’t really think my English is even close to perfection. Maybe from here, you can see the efforts I made in learning English, and integrating into this society.

I was surprised when I opened up my Google Reader and found that my comment to a previous article had become a “top story”. I read through all your comments here, on sgforums.com, and on Facebook. I find some of your views very interesting and helpful, while others, are quite unfriendly, or even full of hatred.

I understand that when talking about such an issue you are all concerned with, it is difficult to be complete and precise. But, please, do not exaggerate, or purposely distort my logic. Please don’t assume so many things I didn’t even mention.

I will explain as much as I can.

Firstly, I want to say that I wrote that piece because I was curious to know how you really think about foreign students like me. I tried to be objective (though nobody can) and friendly, and I didn’t pour any complaints. I was just there to share how I feel, and that’s all.

To Ms Ethan Wang Hui Teng @ Facebook,

What she claims is “hmm. I just hope that they import better people. Most of the china people here are snobs. seriously just look at his comments. He talks as if he is of a higher class than us, more cultured. Seriously, talk about cultured. look at how he highlights himself as a “scholar”. Can’t he just put “I’m someone who comes over here to seek for a better future” what a douche bag. =,=”

I read this for a few times, then I still don’t know how to describe my feeling. If you read carefully, you will understand that my piece was a comment to an article talking about a PRC scholar. That’s why I said I am also a PRC scholar. Please, I never imply I am of HIGH CLASS or what. I’m here for discussion, sharing my views and learn from you, and I don’t know what exactly you mean by “a douche bag.”

THE QUESTION

@Red Herring,
I’m from northern China, and I guess you guys are able to sense that I am not a Singaporean. (@ I don’t believe this author)

I agree with you on the more precise question. The question, which is used as the title of my comment, is JUST a question. I didn’t assume any answer (@mad93). What I thought is since you are not satisfied with the situation, what you would do. Red Herring, I understand how you feel since a long time ago.

ON MM LEE

Some people say I am naïve because I claim Mr. Lee is great. I can’t agree with them.

He will be remembered as a great leader of Singapore, and I believe Nixon and Obama share the same view. When I respect someone, it does not mean I cannot criticize him. You can criticize on his policies and his atrocities, yet, when you make an overall judgment from historical perspective, you can still claim he is good or great. I don’t see any contradiction.

@Feelings – Heart vs Brain. I’m not singing praises for Singapore. But it is true I didn’t mention a lot of not so good aspects of Singapore. And, please don’t assume our values and brains are shaped by government propaganda. Yes, everybody is influenced by that, but we have other sources to help us build a rational understanding of this world, right?

CULTURE

@Regnis, who questions: “Who are you to decide that our cultures is inadequate?”

Sorry, I’m nobody. But I don’t like your arrogance. I’m just sharing my views and giving advice. If you are not open to discussion or advice, it’s ok. I don’t have the right, and I will not JUDGE for you. I’m just telling how I feel. I think I have the right to share my opinion.

Singapore is certainly rich in diversity of culture, but how about the depth?

@Ryvyan,
You are proud of what you know and what you don’t know. But, what shaped your interests? What helps you decide what you would like to know and what you don’t want to know? This is the point I want to address. Inadequate cultural immersion may be something to think about. Education is surely not only about knowledge. It’s about delivering ideas and inspiring thoughts, based on the knowledge you have.

In China, a lot of people claim the education system limits the children’s creativity. We know that, and we admit it. The history bit I mentioned is just an example, maybe not a good one. Gifts of uniqueness is just another.

@curious citizen,
You are right that there are a lot of low quality products from China. I can’t agree with you more. But still, if I get good and clean ones, I will feel it is better. I also like European food. This is just about my personal taste.

LOYALTY

I guess you are more interested in this.

@iain’tnobloomintourist,
Where did I say I am not grateful? Then why do you purposely assume it?
What do you mean by “wonderfool”?
Are you saying I am a wonder-“FOOL”? Or are you just reminding me of the pronunciation of this word in Singlish?

I am very grateful to what I am given, what I get, and every little bit I have achieved.

But, I have some worries.

I mentioned I did my job seeking for a long time. And, we are second-class job seekers.
It’s not easy to become PR these days. I was not eligible to apply for PR until I secured a job. Then for the application, it will take 3-6 months on average, and there is a chance of being rejected.

We all know no experience, no job. If you read through some job advertisements, you will also realize that, no PR, no job. So no PR, no experience, no job. Of course, this is a bit exaggerated. But in way, it tells you the difficulty we experienced in job seeking

Secondly, since I came to Singapore, I have started to get immersed in your opinions about foreigners. {We steal your education. We steal your jobs. It is unfair, and you’re fed up with it, etc.} Above all, we are not welcomed.

We are bonded to work here, and, when we are here, we don’t feel welcomed. (@tiredman)

So, we are on scholarship, and no NS, then we should be loyal???!!!

Loyalty is not about money and benefits; it’s about sense of belonging.

Will we be accepted and be part of you, even if we try hard?

I don’t expect so.

So now you understand Yuan Yuan?

Citizenship? Second-class citizen???

However I’d like to remind those who concern, as far as I know, most scholars fulfill their bonds. This program has been there for more than ten years. Since there is a six-year bond, a lot of people do settle down afterwards, because after six years, they already have their family or even children here. It’s hard for them to make a switch back to China, and they will not easily get a job with the same pay as that in Singapore. This is the logic of this scholarship bonds.

And there were people who broke the bond and paid the money (around SS$ 150K to 200K).

And there were people who just left, secrectly…

Eventually it’s really a personal choice. Everyone is different.

I also don’t care if Jet Li or Gong Li take up Singapore citizenship. They have their own concerns.

ON THE OTHER HAND…

There are a lot of complaints from local people. Trust me, I understand them. I won’t repeat here, as you have mentioned a lot about it.

CONCLUSION

If there is a conclusion, then that will be “we are all fooled by the government”. I agree with some of you on this.

Yet, fairness is always just an ideal. I will have no influence on your political system, and what I can tell myself is: If you are a frequent loser, then you will find a thousand excuses until you feel it’s not your problem. I will still try hard to survive.

Frankly, I felt a bit sad after reading your comments. However, overall I find this discussion is meaningful. But for me, it shall not be continued. Sorry if you are not comfortable with some points I made.

AAA on November 23rd, 2009 11.42 am -

Don’t get so worked up lah.

You don’t know who these bloggists are.

They can be -

(1) clones (writers repeating themselves under different pseusonyms)
(2) outsiders or foreigners pretending to be S’poreans wishing & hoping for death for Singapore
(3) anti-establishment people
(4) opposition supporters (oppose for opposition sake but offers no solutions)
(5) handout people (choosey & unemployed hoping for the heaven to drop food into their mouths)
(6) the world & government owes them a living people

Just be cool & contribute to the well-being of the country through your efforts & hard work brother.

Dear writer, do not admire someone like lky gullibly unless you have concrete understanding of the person! Of course, as a foreign-born scholar, it is quite natural for you to be thankful for the Singapore Government to grant you a scholarship for which not only cover all your expenses, if you are thrifty enough, you may even be able to save-up some money! How much do you know about Singapore’s history and development? Whatever you read from the main-stream-media are just propagandas from the government to deceive the innocent citizens, not to disparage, please have more in-depth understanding before you send-in your frivolous comments! Mind you, not to mention foreigners in China, Shanghai residents also despise Chinese citizens from other parts of China inclusive those from the capital! It is just human natural not uniquely to Singaporeans that have reservations regarding the influx of too-many fts to this tiny island. Hence, I encourage you to read more before you state your comments and opinions. I wish you all the best for your future endeavor but hopefully, you do not end-up as a hubris or self-absorbed person, who abominates your own countrymen in China!

Dubai has 80% foreigners and the citizens are not complaining. Why? Because it is very difficult to get a Dubai citizenship with all the nil taxes and free medical benefits (and of course no national service or 10 years reservist liability).

In Singapore, the Government is totally stingent about giving benefits to the average citizen. They allow loop-holes like this PRC scholar not serving NS and many children of Singapore PRs give up their PR to avoid NS

The ministers and senior civil servants welcome foreigners with open arms, knowing well these foreigners cannot take-over their jobs.

Therefore the only solution is to let one of the ministers lost their job (in their next election). No point talking any more, if you want to save yourself, fellow Singaporeans.

I came to know a China businessman in sg who is PR. He has his family settled here for education as well wife to get a job. He seems to be doing well in business in sg and travels frequently. He realised that there is a problem for China PR who travel needs VISA which to him is troublesome and as well as sensitive issue such as crime offending in sg. He decided to apply for citizenship for himself except his family as his plan is to overcomes problems as mentioned.

I asked him for an honest and serious truth to my question. “Are you sure you want citizenship just for reasons of being troublesomes rather than real reasons and why is your family member not included?

He replied so confidently : “Whatever reasons for, when time comes to go back to China, there is no problem as long as you have money to settle it”

Perhaps, AAA, you may yet to encounter such incident but I believe soon you will.

It is unfair to compare the migration situation here in sg with China as one is external and the other is internal where the PRCs simple move from one city to anor to work/live (that is not even migration to speak!).

While we do need some foreign labour here to take up positions in the service and manufacturing sectors, do we really need that many executive/white collar workers from foreign countries to compete with the locals for jobs?

In the long run, our wages will be even lower (than it is already now) and cost of living will be higher (thanks to the rich PRs snapping up the resale units).

Culture-wise – that is subjective – we can offer chinese/western history as one of the optional subjects in schools for students who are interested but should not be a compulsory subject – afterall why should one be compelled to study chinese history when we are supposed to be born and bred singaporeans and we do have our own culture and history (however short) as well.

If we keep thinking this way – how diff are we then from the PRCs back in China? Shouldn’t we then come under China as one of their city states?

You claim to be ‘PRC Scholar’.
You now use the nick AAA.

You never answered my question.

Would you Quit China ?
Do you like the system here?
You admitted your question is not precise.
This is a big disappointmen for a talent that is a scholar.
You have not impressed me as a scholar talent.

AAA aka PRC ‘Scholar’,

you know what , anyone can type what you typed.
anyone can claim what you claimed.

You could not understand that people are asking you to prove your claim of identity.

You have proven Nothing about your identity. Zilch.

You know what , I am the James Bond. Meesiam with hum.

[i]@iain’tnobloomintourist,
Where did I say I am not grateful? Then why do you purposely assume it?
What do you mean by “wonderfool”?
Are you saying I am a wonder-“FOOL”? Or are you just reminding me of the pronunciation of this word in Singlish?

I am very grateful to what I am given, what I get, and every little bit I have achieved.

But, I have some worries.

If there is a conclusion, then that will be “we are all fooled by the government”. I agree with some of you on this.

Yet, fairness is always just an ideal. I will have no influence on your political system, and what I can tell myself is: If you are a frequent loser, then you will find a thousand excuses until you feel it’s not your problem. I will still try hard to survive.

Frankly, I felt a bit sad after reading your comments. However, overall I find this discussion is meaningful. But for me, it shall not be continued. Sorry if you are not comfortable with some points I made.[/i]

worries indeed you will have..eternaLLEE..which is the MAIN reason i left britain AFTER obtainnin PR…but i do not feel comfortable when if i changed my mind to get married..whether its a local angmor lass or a madeinchina beauty (zhangzhiyi is what i am after not gongli by the way).. the angmor locals/government will alienated her until they are satisfied that she is what she is..not just a bustop waiter(not the hotel/restaurant type) no needs to go further..most of YOUR country persons has already RETURNED home after winnin the gold medals/rewards..includin the poor little girl who was murdered PARENTs… all this people from YOUR country have a sense of belongin here?
you tell me…in the early 70s…it was the same incident..the multi milionaires from indonesia all packed up and abandoned singapore after makin tons of money HERE…the hongkies did the same tricks..1st they pretend to migrate here to start a new life in anticipation of the prejuly 1997…and abandoned so quickly when they find out after july 1997..hongkong still have a better deals as before..
so where are all this sense of belongin are you mubblin here? people here asked you would you or your future kids serve NS to protect fellow singapooreans?
DID YOU SAY YES? without hesistation……………………
thank you..catched my drift? kapish?

“because I was curious to know how you really think about foreign students like me. ”

No rocket science and stop the pretense. Back in your country (here I am giving you the benefits of doubt) and if, only if, your own country is flooded with foreign students & also many foreigners where you cannot avoid to take notice, that is how you feel.

“when you make an overall judgment from historical perspective, you can still claim he is good or great. I don’t see any contradiction.”

Just like Qin Shi Huang and the great wall of china.

“Loyalty is not about money and benefits; it’s about sense of belonging.”

sure but money and benefits do play a great part when it is constantly being emphasized / reinforced by society where the relationship between the governed & the governing seems to be focus on that (something that goes by the word Inc.) and may I know where is your own sense of belonging and why.

“Whatever reasons for, when time comes to go back to China, there is no problem as long as you have money to settle it”

You are right boy. A lot of people just do not understand how other countries work (where money can simply grease your way through harmless technicalities) and here our own blockheads think that citizenship means so much ……..

I am thankful that most singaporeans and PRs if not FTs will not be reading comments here. Else, too many China FTs read this may invite their responses which I worry may create friction.

phew. luckily many are pathetic apathetics.

well done.

Hi TOC,

You can contact me if there’s anything you’d like to know. Now this is a real email instead of the aaa one.

For some of the questions you guys addressed, if you read my previous comments carefully, you will get the answer. I feel tired to reply to you. It’s like 1 vs. 1000. Nothing will be changed, and there’s a lot more meaningful things to do in life. Honestly, I have a feeling that you will not be the ones who will threat the current Singapore goverment and change the system, no matter how much you complain or how angry you look like here. Just my own opinion.

Btw, sense of belonging for me is being accepted, cultural values & family.

One thing I feel really interesting is that many of you question my identity.
Why? This just shows how little you really know about us.

No matter how much hatred or sarcasm some of you show in your comments, I will not care much. I know some people just go online and leave some comments to make them feel 爽. I’m here to do discussion and also learn from you. I won’t feel “losing face” if I accept your idea or realize I claimed anything wrongly. For me, this is the correct attitude to discuss, and learn.

三人行，必有我师焉。No matter who you are.

I appreciate your comments.

AAA,
“I’m here to do discussion and also learn from you”

But your question was phrased in a tricky and ambiguous way which you admitted.

What discussion can be achieved when your question is questionable?

I am sure you appreciate learning so many things here.

Let me ask you back:

Do you think that all so-called talents in singapore are talents?

Why singaporean who served NS plus 13 reservists with microdust allowances with worst than foreigners holding sholarship with at least S$1200 allowances. We singaporean are not giving free education, housing, medical and worst till have to pop up that NS microdust allowances to buy insurance to cover our own ash. Then foreigners who came here are allow to claimed income tax on their parents as well as their sibling in their own nation are claming too. But Singaporean only one member allow to claim on their parents (S$3500 EA) But parents who are earning more than S$2000 per annual then his or her children are not allow to claim. Look they themselves are getting few millions per years then are calculative with that S$2K and S$3500 per annual. Besides, everyone are paying 7% GST- lucrative Tax, then now property tax increase as well for all the singaporeans so called subsidy HDB rental Flat. Look if HDB FLAT are paying the same level of propety tax then should they imposed fixed same selling prices for resales flat irregardless the location. example if Tiong Baru 5room flat selling at S$700K then other area of 5 room flat should also sell at S$700K. If not, then property should should also base on their resales valve right.

I am an American and I have lived in Singapore for 5 years too. Some Singaporeans have joked to me that most Americans think Singapore is part of China. The funny thing is that now I sort of agree with them. 5 years ago, I could get by in Singapore speaking English. Now, I cannot. It’s exasperating to be spoken to in Chinese at coffee shops/hawker centers everywhere. It’s not really the PRC immigrants’ fault for not knowing English or my fault for not knowing Chinese. The Singapore government has created these circumstances for us to deal with. Many Singaporeans might blithely say “so go learn Mandarin” but there is actually an easier solution: return to America. Which I am doing in two months. I didn’t want to live in China when I came to Singapore, but it feels just like Shanghai as the PRC scholar pointed out. In fact, it feels like part of China. The American jokesters are right – Singapore is part of China (in all the ways that really matter). Maybe it’s good for Singapore to become more Chinese; I wouldn’t want to judge. But it’s not my taste – I don’t feel like studying Mandarin. I guess maybe some non-Chinese Singaporeans might not want to either. I like the old Singapore better.

Sad to see a number of you only concerned about the disapearance of Singaporean Chinese. Surely you are aware that Singaporean INdian birthrate is not that different and even the Malays are below replacement rate.

You should be more concerned that the Singaporean culture and Singaporean himself is in danger of disapperaing. If Indian and Malays vanish there will be no real Singaporean culture either.

It is obvious like some of our leaders – some of you are more concerned about being Chinese than Singaporean. A sad day indeed!

to mike @ 56) “He seems to be doing well in business in sg and travels frequently. He realised that there is a problem for China PR who travel needs VISA which to him is troublesome and as well as sensitive issue such as crime offending in sg.”

aiyo, you cld have told that friend, it’s no problem for PRs to commit even serious offences in Singapore. it is a common misconception that PRs will be deported automatically or for convicts to be stripped of their PR status

No so. I checked with ICA already. PRs can remain in Singapore after serving out their jail sentence. heck, singapore prison will even consider release them early to WORK in singapore much like they evaluate singapore citizens.

yap, you heard me right. that’s how lenient singapore is towards PRs. we’re gonna be a hotbed of foreign crimes when casinos open soon. stay tuned!

@67
well i went to Palo Alto and took a drive down to LA, when i reached LA, i was wondering if i had overshot my destination and reached mexico. Also on the way to Miami, i was curious about whether i had to bring along my spanish phrase book just in case, and in the end had to cancel it since my car was broken into.

I recognize the problems you are facing with the communication problems too, and wondered if the 50ish states of america were actually over populated with immigrants. I would not be surprised there will be a time, where more and more chinese immigrants move over to USA. Till then, I wonder if you had brought with you a slice of china back with you or that USA is now also a part of china.

You can run, but in the end, you have to face it. This might be a problem for Singapore now and you can run away from it. What is there to prevent the same problem from happening over in America? You might as well embrace the inevitable just like Jim Rogers had done so.

should have asked why people don’t want to give birth…

I’m not saying I admit my question is “wrong”. What I mean is that I learnt from you that you have more specific versions which may be more relevant to your current concerns. My question is more general, because for me I don’t think it’s only about the “number” of foreigners, it’s about the future of this place in this new cycle of globalisation. But you don’t seem like you wanna talk about it. You are more interested in pouring your anger to me.

Rigorously, there’s no question that is not questionable. If your comment is used as a top story, you will know that. That’s why it is a discussion.

It’s not necessary to achieve anything here. And some of do not have the correct attitude to discuss.

I feel strange when you question me about government’s policy. I am not the policymaker, and I didn’t learn about all your complaints until I signed with MOE and came here. I am also a victim as I mentioned, because I feel unwelcomed. You are asking the wrong person. Question your government instead. I’m only here for discussion.

Goodbye.

Regnis on November 22nd, 2009 10.34 am

Commented on:
“You are definitely smart people, but just my advise, you need more “culture”. For example, it’s very hard for me to find a Singaporean student to discuss about Chinese History, or Europeans History, in a decent way. It seems that your system make your “values” limited. It’s also not easy to find gifts to bring home for my relatives.”

You Said:
My dear PRC scholar, such is our culture- an attitude of looking ahead, striving for progression, and not having too much focus on the past.

My view:
Yes, I agree with PRC scholar that singaporean need a little more “culture”, by culture I mean 文化素质 and 修养. It is more of a emotive and spirtual quality that need time to develop. Singaporeans tend to be moving so fast everyday and don’t take time to reflect. Our schools cramp use with facts and data and as a result we have many knowledgeable people, but few with wisdom.

Think about the last 10 discussion you have. What are they about? How many of the conversation will be about the the beauty of a particular verses or the majestic nature of creation? And how many of such conversation is about material possession, positions and social status?

Don’t get me wrong, the China youth of today is getting less and less culture too.

Don’t think that just because we can build the most glamourous opera house or have the most classical/musical/opera concerts in the region we will automatically be “cultured”.

My 2 cents :-)

@ AAA:

“I feel strange when you question me about government’s policy. I am not the policymaker”

Erm… because you first asked us the question about what would we do if we were MM Lee, and now we’re just throwing back our ideas, queries, and concerns at you?

If singaporeans need not pay and pay so overpriced flats, and COE and ERP and no need do NS (use this years to study more or get job experience), and the system is 2 party system, I would not mind these foreigners because, cost of living would not be so high and quality of life can increase having less stress.

sincerely
Vivian

@72
Wow, I do not think that over in TOC, there is residual anger placed upon you as an individual and that you should feel as if you are the target board for the policy. It is an avenue of differing ideas, some people believe in it and their emphasis might come across as negativity or even to a more extreme end, make hurtful remarks. In the end, opinions are seriously considered and should be directed to the subject of discussion. In theory that is, practical application seeks to undo whatever semblance of grace we would like to attribute to a discussion.

But as you have said, it is but in a quest to seek answers. I do not profess to be able to provide you for much, but at least here, I can give you some idea of a question that is not meant to be answered. It is also known as a rhetorical question, usually the person who asks it, does not intend for an answer to be given, eg Are you from Mars? Its intention was never meant to be rigorously questioned. I would think that would be up the alley of a philosopher who had training in metaphysics or philosophical logic.

However, I think there is sentient unhappiness with this policy, some might say it is necessary and can acquiesce, and there is without a doubt that there are its opponents to it. It just so happens that when emotions get mixed into it, there are always going to be misunderstandings. What I am trying to explain to you is the issue of how different we are from others looking in. Once others realise that and take that into account, they start to reject it naturally and try and explain it away as an anomaly. Just as you remained indifferent when you could have tried to integrate into society.

The issue for us is best served up as an example of a party. We are the host, and we invited a lot of guests to our party. Beverages, food and entertainment provided to ensure everyone at the party is happy. Now as the party is dying out and the guests are hinting that they want to leave after having a good time. As with most parties, there is going to be a lot of cleaning and tidying to be done post party. We as hosts cannot simply pack up our belongings and move on with the guests can we? (this is an example of rhetorical questioning)

This I hope illustrates the sentiment, not explicitly, the feeling of FTs coming here and leaving when the going gets tough. FTs that can contribute and help improve Singapore is usually to mitigate the feeling of us being belittled.

I hope you will not feel aggrieved when you read the remarks and find them caustic. It is but human nature, we feel aggrieved when we hear negative remarks too. It sometimes sparks a vigorous inquiry and in the pursuit, we start to see that we have hastily generalized the FTs into a category.

Now feeling welcomed here is a 2 way street, but usually it depends on you opening up to us first like what you have done. There are others out there who are now extending their friendship towards you. If you still do not feel welcomed then do try and remember that it is but a minority and do not hastily generalize the whole Singaporean population as having an axe to grind with you.

Curious

72) AAA on November 24th, 2009 8.51 am
“I feel strange when you question me about government’s policy. I am not the policymaker, and I didn’t learn about all your complaints until I signed with MOE and came here. I am also a victim as I mentioned, because I feel unwelcomed. You are asking the wrong person. Question your government instead. I’m only here for discussion.”

You are very unintellectual in this aspect.
I agree with #74 Regnis for spotting your self-contradiction.
You have sung the praise. Now, i invite you for a baptism of fire.
Litmus test.
I ask you to give 1 flaw / complain / weakness about the system.
Else, by do you mean its PERFECT, FLAWLESS?
You praised a political policy.
Yet , you could avoid reply citing that its a gov policy you cannot question it.

You said you are not the policy maker and so you cannot respond to questions about policies. This is also unintellectual. People can question gov policies. Why only gov can question its own policies?

Based on all above replies from you, you have given me a lot of doubt about your qualification as claimed. For this , i question your Identity.

YOU have not yet proven your identity.

why not you say you are rich and handsome has psychic power and kidnapped by aliens before?

the Burden of proof is on you.

Actually, there is no need for AAA to ask

and frankly, there is no need for (local born) Singaporeans to answer.

Just leave us Singaporeans alone

and

that will make us Singaporeans feel a lot better.

Please stop meddling with our domestic affairs.

patriot

Proof? How do you expect me to prove my identity? I can give you my passport number, NUS matriculation number (yes, NUS), my name, current working location and my personal blog address. But I don’t think anybody will be willing to do that. Yet, even if I give you these, those skeptics will still believe I fake them. There’s no point to do that. If TOC contacts me I’ll be glad to answer some questions. I have left my real email address.

@#76 I wish my English could be as good as yours in the future, sincerely.

I don’t see the self-contradiction some of mentioned. (@#77) Maybe I just didn’t express properly. My English is still limited. I never say your government is perfect or flawless. There are way too many problems, just as many other governments in the world. I’m open to discussions on this and share my two cents, but some of you made me feel “I am the one to curse”. That’s why, if you want a solution to be exercised, please talk to your government instead. I’m not the one to be hated.

I read some about Singapore history, but surely not as much as many of you guys know, I believe. I learnt how your PAP leaders played with the communists and finally jailed them. And I was trying to find a similarity between the Temasek Holdings and the stateowned companies in China. There’s no need for me to sing praise for them. But I will still consider LKY as great politician in Asian history. Yes, somewhat similar to Qin Shi Huang, as someone mentioned. Don’t forget he was one of the very few who supported Deng’s decision in 1989 Tian An Men incident. That is his leadership style, we all know that.

I can share with you my opinions regarding the policy of importing foreigners. 1. As I mentioned, some serive staff didn’t undergo proper training. They only speak Mandarin and this shall truly be changed. It gives people the feeling that it’s so easy to come to Singapore. 2. Regarding the number of foreigners you should take in, I don’t really know what is the ideal number. It depends on who you allow to go in. Most are still transitional workers who are here for two or three years, I believe. Yes, there are too many of foreigners now, and that’s why it’s more difficult to get PR. But one thing is clear, your goverment does fine calculations, on GDP. They won’t lose money, but they do sacrifice some of the citizen’s benefits. 3. Singapore will “look” more like China or India, at least to some degree, and for now I think it is inevitable in this cycle of globalisation. If not so, the cost to do business and invest in Singapore would be so high that the local economy will decline for sure. It is not like small countries in Europe who have the big EU as their shelter. This is Asia, and Singapore is very different from other SEA countries. 4. Don’t blame us foreigners who come here. Your policy (no matter right or wrong, or just a big loophole) allow them to go in and they have the right to make a choice. If they really try hard to integrate, please give them a hug. Yes, the competition is more intensifying, but it’s really not the foreigners’ fault.

How do you kill off patrotism. Replace the local population with immigrants. Many a colonising power has used this method to quell resistance. China has been very successful with this policy in Tibet. That’s what happening here, Singaporeans are slowly but surely showing resistance to the ruling authority. Many are now looking beyond personal econonic progress and are looking towards human rights. So the best is to replace them with people who put money before everything. So we welcome these immigrants to replace the population. The basic difference about these immigrants and our so called “quitters” is that most if not all Singaporeans who left did not do so monetary reasons. Many did so because they could not agree with the social and political conditions here.

#69,

That’s something news to me, thanks. Ya, indedd we are going to be flooded with hotbed of crimes in sg very soon….

Look, my gf is also a PRC scholar (And a Temasek Scholar somemore) and also major in english, and all damn scholars have to score A. So what is a A worth? They just do not have exposure to Singapore English and their style of english is much more proper. AAA dont write like this.

I am also an editor and sometimes write alot. This essay piece you have wrote have too many words, it will take the average Singaporeans 1hr to write like this. And even more so, for PRC. Or rather, they wont have the patience to write like this, unless they been exposed to extensive writing in their jobs.

Why don’t you write this essay in Chinese?

Somemore, my gf, a civil servant now in China, earns only sin 400 a month…and your idea of contruction worker earns 700 a month..wow, that’s alot for a construction worker.

Like I mentioned, in order to be a PRC scholar, you need to be based in China first and after getting the scholarship in Sg means that you no longer study english but had moved on to other subjects. In fact, your english would actually deteoriate and not written like a straits time writer.

You mentioned you are interested in Sg, there are sites like Outreach, that is more meaningful to you.

What is the most popular forum for PRC ppl in Singapore, do you know?

And you mentioned almost 5 years had passed and you been looking for a month for 5months, what kind of a scholar needs to study for erm…5 years?

@On Holy,

I really smiled after reading your comment.

Straits Time writer? Thank you for your compliments…

As I said, if you are a skeptic, you will still believe I fake everything.

What I could tell you is I was able to understand NUS lecture the first time I listened to it. My English is still getting better, not getting worse.

I put a lot of efforts in learning English when I was in China. I’m confident in my grammar although I believe sometimes my English still looks “mechanical”, and my vocabulary is still limited. There is one webpage online where you can find my name. And that is a list of award winners in the National High School English Proficiency Competition of China in Year 2003. Interested to take a look?

Don’t assume non-native speakers cannot learn English well. And yes, it took me more than an hour to write the first piece.

If I were to write that in Chinese, it would still cost me one hour or so, but surely the writing and the use of words would be more decent. I also write poems in Chinese, if you are interested, I can show you.

The most popular forum for PRCs in SG is sgchinese.com The second most popular is huasing.org. Too easy questions. I registered on both and posted on both.

Yes, five years in Singapore. There’s something called “bridging course” before we started university studies. Then after that, 4 years to get Honours.

If you still worry about my identity, you can question me, and I will answer. But if you insist on not believing in me, then this discussion just goes completely meaningless.

The question posed is: “Is Singapore a better place without foreigners?”

What doesn’t sit well about the way the question is phrased is that it is too black-and-white, much like the PAP’s extremist rhetoric: the choice is between having foreigners or not having foreigners with nothing in between.

These are some of the things that are wrong about the policy. It is:

1. too much;
2. too soon;
3. we’re not even set up for this volume of influx and at this rate; and especially,
4. in so tiny a space.

There are other things wrong with this policy, namely:

1. it is a cover up for past economic mismanagement; and,
2. it ignores the many causes – some of which have only been hypothesized but are worth exploring – of low birth rates specific to Singapore. (It has been shown in many studies overseas, that the birth rates of new immigrants very quickly become identical to the native born population. And why not when the factors affecting the TFR are identical to new immigrants as they are to the native born population? We are still going to be saddled with the problem of low birth rates even withy new immigration if nothing else changes.)

[i]AAA on November 24th, 2009 11.40 am
it’s about the future of this place in this new cycle of globalisation. But you don’t seem like you wanna talk about it. You are more interested in pouring your anger to me.

Rigorously, there’s no question that is not questionable. If your comment is used as a top story, you will know that. That’s why it is a discussion.

It’s not necessary to achieve anything here. And some of do not have the correct attitude to discuss[/i]

but i did asked you a very honest questions on sense of belongin…
you NEVER answer nor rebutted…

would you served NS in the polis mata forces patrollin the street of orchard armin to the teeth if/when osamabinlette is active again?
you didn’t even said NO/maybe or even seek to ask..can i called a lifeline?
why you all china persons are liked that? siamed liked hell if it don’t BENEFIT you @ all..XI PUN SENG LEE (loss money business nocando) har?

@#85 iain’tnobloomintourist

“why you all china persons are liked that? siamed liked hell if it don’t BENEFIT you @ all..XI PUN SENG LEE (loss money business nocando) har? ”

I don’t know why you say this. I answered you about this sense of belonging question, please read my previous comments carefully.

If I have to serve Singapore NS, then go to NUS, then bonded for six years. Yes, I would not have come. If China asked me to serve NS in China, I would go to serve it. As I mentioned, I understand your feelings, including the fact that young Singaporeans have to serve NS. If I were you, I would also feel unfair.

If you were me, would you make the same decision?

My sense of belonging goes to China. Loving China does not necessarily mean loving the Communist Party. I love the country as it was and it is, but at the same time, I criticize on a lot of aspects of it, and I wish it could be better.

It’s not that Chinese people are more selfish or what, just like you are also talking about your rights and your future, which concern both you and your country, it’s the same thing in essence.

There are so many questions you guys posted here. Sometimes I miss some questions, but it does not mean i purposely ignore them. Thank you for your understanding.

Frankly, the question in the article is similar to what SM Goh said, where there seems to be only two(2) choices. With foreigners or without them; One or the other…. nothing in between. If the article revolves around this question, then it is basically a worthless piece.

A better question the author should ask is, “how many foreigners is too many”?

@lobo76

You should read through the comments first. This is a general question which does not only have Yes or No. And we were not only talking about Yes or No.

Is Singapore a better place without foreigners?

88) AAA on November 24th, 2009 1.57 pm
we were not only talking about Yes or No.

> Well, I say YES to the question. Singapore a better place without foreigners FULL STOP

“Well, I say YES to the question. Singapore a better place without foreigners FULL STOP .”

No . . . . .I’d say “Yes” but “Singapore’s a better place without those good-for-nothing boggists.” Period!

Lincoln once said,” Ask not what your country can do for you BUT you can do for the country.”

Remember this is not MALAYSIA!

#84, I concur.

This so-called scholar could is asking a poorly structured question.
Its like a kid asking ‘you are either with us or against us’.
Is life so simple?

I like to ask him : Could China have grown without their ‘innovation’, if you know what i really mean?

Could China invent all the things invented by the west if not japan?

///You can run, but in the end, you have to face it. This might be a problem for Singapore now and you can run away from it.///

Do you not think that a lot of us are already facing the problem head on. As a matter of speech, most of us are grounded here in this country and talking about running, only those with the means are able to do it.

/// What is there to prevent the same problem from happening over in America?///

Let America enjoy their problem, if they care to have it.

///You might as well embrace the inevitable just like Jim Rogers had done so.///

Jim Rogers may be sitting in an air-con room unaffected by all this, just like some of our own scholars. It will definitely be inevitable if all of us just sit still and allow it to happen.

“If I have to serve Singapore NS, then go to NUS, then bonded for six years. Yes, I would not have come. If China asked me to serve NS in China, I would go to serve it. As I mentioned, I understand your feelings, including the fact that young Singaporeans have to serve NS. If I were you, I would also feel unfair.”

wow pian, are you for real ?

please do us a favor and say this to our special group of angels (aka as higher mortals) so that they can wake up from their slumber.

Thank you PRC scholar for making it clear to us who yourself and people like yourself will be voting for if you get your citizenships and are around for the coming elections.

Thank you for being a part of this great scheme to rob Singaporeans of any decent democratic development in the years to come.

From the length of the letter and comments written by AAA aka PRC Scholar,
its seems that he does have a fairly good command of english.

Now, why did he phrased such a question?
Examine his question.
There is bias in it.

He is not as simple a person as he claims to be.
His motive i suspect is more than to have friendly discussion.

AAA, whatever you up to, its not gonna work.

AAA,

Well, when the price of everything is on the rise, the salary does not rise. In some case, get a pay cut. You should know where to divert the anger to when citizen has no way to stop all these nonsense.
When dollar and cent is concern, you cannot pretend no one knows that. When opportunities are concern, you cannot assume that, that concern does not exist. If policies do not skew badly towards one side, you are most welcome here to study and work.

I wonder what is on the minds of these new citizens about the future in a city which will be crowded by more influx to come such that the foreigners exceed the locals?

AAA, i am sure you are confident of retirement and job security.

injoy.

While respecting alternate views on blogs (I thought that’s what blogs are for), this article/author smells like some shit from the NIC. Basically, the message is to accept the FTs coming in.

The clue is at the very last part of the article:

“……”Integration” is a long, and maybe a frustrating process. Things will only change when better “understanding” is developed…..”

Seriously, $10 million budget for NIC to “integrate” the foreigners, and so far what have we seen? Pieces of trash articles like these? WIth some bits of “poor” Singlish to be convincing? Sorry, I am not buying. C’mon TOC, I thought you have more class than this.

As many have pointed out, the actual question to ask is “Why do we need so MANY foreigners in the first place?” Is it the mistake of our Stop-at-2 policy, just like LKY have now admitted the “mistake” of our learning of Chinese after decades of trumpet blowing of an excellent edcuation system. To the author AAA, do you not see similar long-term problems with China’s stop-at-1 policy? No, then you are really a disgrace to your parents, unless you’re one of those “Little Emperor” (aka Brat in plain English).

With reference to America, they have about constant 12.5-12.6% foreign-born population. This is in the land of freedom, where every T+D+H aspire to go, including Singaporeans. In contrast, Singapore now has 36% foreign-born population. The author is thus talking apples while we are talking oranges.

The author has also conveniently forgot what “scholars” can contribute to Singapore. I recall the Health Minister was quite up-beat about our biotech sector coming up with a H1N1 vaccine earlier on–with the large employ of FTs current in that sector. Where are we now? — quitely importing vaccines from elsewhere. Even HK has annouced a vaccine based on TCM. Now, why didn’t we import that 1% of FT that really matter?

Big question then: Is Singapore a better place WITH foreigners???

Okies, I believe you AAA even though your english is too good to be true. But honestly, since you are working in the MOE, you will never know the truth amidst the corruption spread by MOE.

Nobody respect MM Lee, it his papers that promoted him all the time. Where were you during the 60s to 90s when MM Lee provoke our neighbours all the time with his disrespectful remarks, it a lucky thing we are not involved in a war.

Who merged Singapore with M’sian to get better political benefits? Who promote the 2 child policy that led to our downfall? Who disdain the chinese speakers and discriminate against them?

Singapore can be ancient Rome because we have a small population, and can create high happiness level..but we fail..why?

Take Hongkong for example, for more than 3 decades to the 90s, we r trying very hard to overtake Hongkong, Taiwan but failed miserably. Does Hongkong have a MM Lee? Even if we dont have MM Lee, the likes of David Marshell can surely lift us to prosperity after our wealth depends on the likes of Chinese merchants from Penang and Indonesia that migrant to our shores due to discrimination in their homelands.

MM Lee likes to claim everything to him. The reason why Hong Kong and Taiwan lose out to Singapore is that their Police Force sux, and they need to only that point. But then they have a bigger population.

Dont we have poor ppl as well? We have 2000 charities bodies, my god! Take away this 2000 charities bodies, we r dead.

We have no resources, we r just laudering international money with property and housing prices. Look at the USA mortage and u know.

You know why Temasek, DBS are raising money now? If we r attacked by Speculators, we r doomed, and the 1998 financial crisis will repeat again. This electronic cash system is creating virtual economy money and it only a matter of time, some1 found a loophole and burst it.

The property prices are too high, and it needs reining. Imagine if you are a Singapore, and you heard of price increase every 1 or 2 months, you be horrified. Just like the salt and sugar tax in ancient china long ago.

We r thinking of our children, of the Singapore in the future. MM lee is not thinking of us as he funneled all cash to GIC and Temasek. That is why we always have +1 or -1 Billion surplus for Singapore, the rest becomes his in the private companies.

That is why there is a big increase of salary and our budget jumped from 40B to 60B last year and 30B is unaccountabled for. What do you feel, if you r a Sg?

Do you guys and gals really think there will be enough jobs created for a future population of 6 million which is about 3 million more ?

Can singapore produce so many more jobs?
This means creating so many more jobs that based on today’s population, each citizen can hold 2 jobs at one time. This means ZERO unemployment based on today’s population size.

this is a technical question.

@100) Humphrey on November 25th, 2009 3.39 pm

Hi Humphrey,

SG now has 4.9m population, of which 36% is foreigners. So we actually have only about 1m more to go. Though I thought the goal was for 6.5m.

3m referred may be those with a red IC, but that includes “new” & “naturalized” citizens, whatever that means.

It takes 5 FWs to dig a hole (using 1 shovel), more NMPs needed in Parliament to spread the workload of MPs, 4-5 MPs in a GRC (each taking turn to speak in parliament), lots of social workers for debt-ridden gamblers when the IRs are ready, collecting cans from trashbins to resell, people to help integrate (whatever that means) the flood of FT/FWs, etc… You kidding no way to squeeze more… er… jobs… for us?

AAA,

Will i be sued if i reply, No?

AAA,
“Is singapore a better place without foreigners?”
Also, will i be sued if i say Yes?

A resounding YES. I’ve lived that life from the 80s and 90s !!! The Kallang roar, the pride of attending national day, the beautiful and spacious streets, less overcrowding, etc. I really love that era. We were once one united people.

I think is the combination of fustration with the government and the sheer number of migrants influx that causes this negative implication! I fully respect diversity and hey.. I am a migrant in Australia too! But i think the the crust of the matter can be pinned down to mainly the policy involved. Singapore is an island by size and can you honestly image the number of people per square meter when the population eventually gets to 6.5M! Singaporean already loses their freedom of speech and livestyle and now they are going to lose their freedom of movement!

Another flaw of the goverment in its policy is that the preservation of the locals’ job and their finance capability! Bear in mind that Singapore doesn’t have fair employment regulations unlike Australia, which guarantees min wages and employment fairness. It is very true that business are run to generate profit by max. revenue and min. cost. With no min wages law to protect the locals, its a matter of who is willing to undertake a lower salary. Many of the chinese stills has a lower standard of living, China to return to. What about Singaporeans? Its has been instill in us by our goverment to study hard and get an office job, Hence, no many locals are willing to undertake sub average pay works like cleaners and construction workers. With Shenton way being only that big, our finance sector is limited and competition is getting very real.

The biggest flaw by far is the lack of justification for this sheer number of 6.5M. Rather spending effort in reviewing the decline in child birth attributed by the fast and high living standards, the gov/t opted for a quick fix via migration. Look, the entire Western Australia which is at least a quater in mass of Australia only has 3.5M. Our financial position is in greater despair as compared to Singapore, which has a reputation of a regional Biz hub of Asean countries. But the government has a policy to limit and expand its population here ensuring that there is a balance in lifestyle preservation and economic expansion. It is nature to place self interest above all but as the locals here can see us migration coming and contributing in a positive manner, many Australian welcomes us to their door. A less harried expansion plan would have been more acceptable in my opinion.

Allow me to answer the Question in the most straight forward way.

Singapore itself is not going to be good for the future as far as its’ outlook is concerned.

However, it will be worse if aliens are allowed to occupy this compact little city.

And with or without aliens, time is closing on its’ destiny.

Will You(AAA) kindly tell us here, are You prepared to be a Singaporean yourself?

patriot

4 questions :

1. are the so-called talents the best in the world attracted here?
Would the best come here? Are there no better place for these to choose?

2. What is the effect on the quality of workers here if these are not the best or certified talents?

3. Will top talents be paid lower wages than the best wages in the world?
What is the effect of Low Wage, Many Foreign workers on the quality of workforce here? Are foreigners here generally higher paid than locals of the same calibre?

4. Is low wage the solution for a strong economy and high talent workforce?
Is this solution sustainable? Can it stand the test of time?

To this prc writer,

‘find a Singaporean student to discuss about Chinese History, or Europeans History’

You mean south-east asia history? 700 years of temasek history? why should we know about chinese history? or european history? i am happy with south east asian history. i am happy knowing about the history of the malayan pennisula. If you can’t make a decent opinion on us singaporeans, please shut up and/or get out. we don’t need you.

‘I really admire MM Lee as a great leader in modern Asia.’

keep this opinion to yourself and in your head. we don’t need another foreigner to tell us what is BAD for us. you know what i mean?

thank you.

@105) The fact Of Life on November 26th, 2009 12.38 pm

Good on you mate for sharing the situ in land o’ Matilda. I recall Australia has about 23% foreign-born population, even though the impression one gets is that there is a LARGE influx of immigrants into Australia. This is the highest % among developed countries to best of my knowledge, so SG at 36% is real King. Hope such relative comparison will give everyone the magnitude of the actual situation SG is facing….. Hmm, very quiet from NIC, lah.

Well, perhaps just after waking up isn’t the best time to respond to this. But since many of you have noticed that the question is inherently biased, why then are you taking the bait? Nonetheless, I’ll try to respond to the question as well as I can.

(Also, as an aside for those of you who think AAA’s English is “too good to be true”, there’s something called editing which really helps before posting an article, be it a comment or an essay. Practice it. It’s really a good idea, and helps keep the flaming in check, too.)

I am Singaporean, I didn’t quite enjoy my NS, though I did have some good times in there, and I am strongly *for* subsequent generations to continue doing NS. It is a problem that I am, in some ways, 2 and a half years behind my peers – my PRC and Malaysian classmates from JC have all been working for some time now, and some are doing Ph.D.s. But I wouldn’t replace NS with anything. Maybe making it shorter would be a good idea, though, but I feel it is an important part of our identity as Singaporeans.

Do I fully understand the FT/FW policies the government has been using for the past few decades? No. Did I see more and more foreigners around me in Singapore (I am currently in Germany studying for a Masters degree)? Yes. Do I have many friends who are not born in Singapore? Yes. Do I have to like the increase of FT/FW in Singapore? No. Are these FT/FW replaceable? Well, yes and no. Would Singapore be a better place without foreigners? No.

Bear in mind that without foreigners, we would still be a fishing village, part of the Johore-Riau Sultanate. That’s perhaps pulling it a little too far, but without those initial foreigners, there would never have been a Singapore. Do you think the locals then enjoyed it when more and more Chinese, Indians and Europeans came flocking to their shores, building a city-state out of a fishing village? Yet it has happened, and this is where we are now. Look at the bumiputra policies in Malaysia if you want to see a knee-jerk reaction to the influx of “foreign talent”.

The difference, I think, would be that those foreigners who came then chose to stay and weave their fates together with Singapore’s, building a nation – whereas now, foreigners are perceived as having come to make money and leave if they can, or decide to stay for various reasons. But who is to say they will not also become a part of Singapore and help to build its future?

It would be nice for some, I guess, if there were a way to look into the future and determine which of the foreigners wanted to stay and become Singaporeans before letting them in. This is something no one can do, and I believe it would be absurd to do.

@101) the forgottengeneration on November 25th, 2009 7.51pm:

I’m not sure where you got your figures, but I thought “only” 20% of our 4.9 million were non-Singaporeans. Feel free to correct me, I have to admit I haven’t been keeping track of my country’s development.

Neither do I know the definition of “new” citizens, but my mother is a “naturalized” citizen who came from Malaysia when she was young and has been working here for almost 30 years. She has a pink IC, of course.

There are definitely many jobs available for Singaporeans. Domestic help, for instance, doesn’t need to come from other countries. We can have local students working as part-time babysitters, and let the people living in the house clean their own house, cook their own meals, etc. We can have locals doing the hard work at construction sites, for instance. We can have more locals in healthcare, because it’s important to be able to speak the language and understand the culture. The same goes for F&B services, such as in cafes, bars, kopitiams and restaurants.

The question is, do we want to take these jobs? Well, uh, not really. We’re all hoping to make it through our beloved degree mills (I myself worked through NUS) and take high-paying jobs in management, engineering, business, law, and whatever else. That’s fine, but we have to accept that as a result, other people who want to take these unwanted jobs have to be let in. And sometimes they don’t stay in those jobs. Also, allowing them in gave us time and space to pursue our dreams, so no one complained then.

Influenced by the Singapore culture, they want to achieve more. They spin off their own businesses, go for language classes or technical courses in the hope that maybe they can do better, if not here then back at home when their contracts here end. Maybe an exceedingly small percentage make the jump from “FW” to “FT”. Who knows.

In your earlier post at 9.28am on 25th November, you mentioned that we should ask “Why do we need so many foreigners in the first place?” I agree, the underlying reasons need to be looked at, but whether we like the answers and we are prepared to make the changes, or even whether it’s possible to stem the flow of foreign talent, if indeed that needs to be done, is something that I don’t know at the moment.

I would suggest that we don’t have the “1% of FT that matter” not because we signed the wrong players, but because the club isn’t right for them, to use a football metaphor. If the environment were right for innovation, our locals would have come up with the solutions. But despite having a world-class education system, and universities ranked in the top X of the world, we produce workers whose main aim in life is to earn more money at the expense of others just to provide for their family, and office politics is probably the no. 1 sport in Singapore.

Might this be why we think we need inspiration and vision from FTs?

@104) Muhamad Nur on November 26th, 2009 8.03am:

In the 80s, I was still very young, but I enjoyed it very much. I have to say there were far fewer foreigners than there are now, as I remember, and yes, we were also less crowded. Of course, there was the Kallang Roar, which I also miss, but that is another story for another time.

But is it really true that we were without foreigners then? Just take our football team for instance. In the 90s, we were coached by foreigners for a longer time than the locals did. We had Abbas Saad, Alistair Edwards, Jang Jung helping to bring the Roar to the National Stadium. There are some other foreigners whose names I can’t quite recall, and Michael Vana didn’t exactly cover himself in glory, but that again is best left for elsewhere.

Granted, we were playing as a club then, and we should have been allowed foreign players to compete, etc etc, but for those few years the foreigners were as much a part of the Lions as Fandi, Malek, Kadir and David Lee. The situation now is that we see foreign athletes as prizes to be added and hopefully converted to Singapore citizens. I don’t agree with this strategy, but I’m in no place to decide the strategy by myself.

One problem that I can see is that we are simply bursting at the seams and yet more foreign talent is being welcomed. This is not right. This, [theforgottengeneration], is what we should be worried about, rather than the ratio of Singaporeans to foreigners vs Americans to foreigners. I can also say that you are comparing apples and oranges.

Reducing the number of foreign talent allowed in would probably mitigate the problem, but I’m not sure how much more appealing it would make our home for Singaporeans, who are yearning to get out. And then the ratio would change, of course, but at what cost?

I will come back to Singapore at the end of my studies, because it is my home and I want to make it better. I am disheartened to see such an outpouring of anger and suspicion against the author of the original article, whoever he may be and whatever his motives may have been. (It was established at some point that AAA was male, right?)

But in any case, I am at least glad to see, even if it is behind the anonymity of the Internet, that we have people among us wanting to say something about our country and concerned about our future. Now … if only those remarks about MM Lee and the Lee Dynasty would be replaced by more constructive opinions on how to move forward, and followed by constructive action, I feel Singapore will be a much better place to live in in the future. Regardless of how many foreigners there are, space permitting.

[...] interesting read. http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/11/is-singapore-a-better-place-without-foreigners/ the comments esp. Leave a Comment No Comments Yet so far Leave a comment RSS feed for [...]

With the PAP in power for the past 50 years, we Singaporeans have lost our:

1. Freedom of Speech – intimidation through servere no-win law suits and imprisonment through use of ISA.

2. Freedom of Assembly – new laws now even consider one person protesting as illegal assembly.

3. Freedom of Trade Unionism – all trade unions are under the direct control of the gov through a Minister appointed by the PM Office.

4. Freedom of Housing – 90 per cent of citizens have no choice but to live in gov housing, on a long-term rental (lease) for 99 years, with escalating prices dictated by HDB and paying installments for 30 years, with rules and regulations restricting what can or not be done.

5. Freedom of Parliamentary Debates – with only two opposition MPs in Parliament, the motion for any policy, law, etc proposed by any PAP Minister has always been carried, without much serious debates on the pros and cons. Using the “Whip” to ensure “Yes” votes, PAP MPs cannot vote against any motion moved by PAP Ministers.

6. Freedom of Voting for Opposition Parties – with many walk-overs, especially with the GRC concept imposed and the redrawing of boundaries, many eligible voters are deprived of casting their votes. With short-campaigning period of 8 days, and the one-sided PAP-controlled medias, Opposition parties can hardly reach out to the whole nation. With the threat of suing to bankruptcy, people are afraid of joining Opposition political parties to rise up against the ruling party.

AND NOW, with the influx of foreigners targeting to reach 6 to 7 million population, Singaporeans will lose their:

7. Freedom of Movements – the tiny island will be so squeezed that it will be very unhealthy for movements and many other physical activities. Shopping centres and public spaces will be so congested that diseases such as H1N1 and tuberculosis can spread easily and speedily.

8. Freedom of Facilities Utility – health, transportation, communication, education and sports facilities will be overwhelmed to the extent that a lot of time will be wasted in queuing up to wait for your turns. Service staff will be so bogged down that the standard of service will drop tremendously.

9. Freedom of Infrastructure Utility – the limited space means limited infrastructures; the available limited infrastructures will no doubt be overwhelmed by the immense influx of foreigners.

10. Freedom of Employment – with unlimited number of low-wage foreigners competing for jobs, the choices for jobs for the locals will be very limited.

11. Freedom of Better Standard of Living (Swiss Standard of Living promise by GCT?) – with their wages curtailed from rising to match inflation, via cheap low-wage foreign labours and cheap foreign ‘talents’, the standard of living will be severely affected. If they are lucky, they may still have a Malaysian Standard of Living. How can they even dream of a Swiss Standard of Living as promised by the previous PM Goh Chok Tong?

Therefore, in return for all the above, Singaporeans should rise up to:

MAKE THE PAP HAS NO FREEDOM OF ABSOLUTE POWER!

(Have we forgotten the saying that “Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely”.)

Vote for any Tom, Dick and Harry.
Vote for Opposition Parties!
Make that “Freak” Election comes True!

@111) icedwater on November 26th, 2009 6.37 pm

Guess U been away for a while to quote 20%; my figures are from official NPS data. Admit, I screwed up in some previous postings quoting 34% for 2008 until someone pointed (so nicely) to me it was 35%. But the 2009 figure is 36% (4.9m with 1.76m foreigners = 36%). So, I am having trouble keeping up too.

Trust TOC to save my bacon also, as they just put up another article at: http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/11/by-2015-born-and-bred-sporeans-may-be-the-minority-in-spore/, which gives some hairy figures even for my standards.

On jobs, you mentioned:

“…The question is, do we want to take these jobs? Well, uh, not really. …”

Guess you are again away for some time. There is much discussion on WHY Singaporeans are seemingly not taking such jobs — it just boils down to us not having a system of min. wage & fair conditions, unless you only hear crap from our ministers. There is also the larger picture of a fixature on the GDP number, lately using more of labor injection than capital injection, etc…. Since you are in Germany, maybe you could do a comparsion of, say a road sweeper salary there vs one of ours. Then compare the Chancellor’s pay (me think it’s about USD320K) vs Singapore PM (USD2.05M).

[i]AAA on November 24th, 2009 12.48 pm @#85 iain’tnobloomintourist

“why you all china persons are liked that? siamed liked hell if it don’t BENEFIT you @ all..XI PUN SENG LEE (loss money business nocando) har? ”

I don’t know why you say this. I answered you about this sense of belonging question, please read my previous comments carefully.

If I have to serve Singapore NS, then go to NUS, then bonded for six years. Yes, I would not have come. If China asked me to serve NS in China, I would go to serve it. [/i]

in china it do NOT asked..every communists needs to serve includin the only son of maotsetung..the son was killed in action fightin outside china on behalf of north korea….
so your cents of belongin is no longer BELONGIN the moment if mindef served you an NS reportin little handbook right?
in the event of war/disturbances..you would abandoned singapore without a second glance..
am i right so far?
so in this topic what the HELL are you mubblin?
ps servin NS is not a choice nor option..athough we do not asked you to buy your own bullet and faced a firin squad..singapoor is not that CRUEL yet…however havin said all that even if you are in the 40s and do a 3 mile IPPT test and died of exhaustion..mindef will tell your survivin famiLEE we will do an investigation…till then your survin famiLLEE have to seek their own lodgins/debts and meals…

Foreigners that come here and boost our wages and quality of life by improving our skills and knowledge should be appreciated.

However the opposite is happening by the so call ‘FTs’ from the ubiquitous service stuffs to those working in constructions by depressing wages at the lower end.

At the higher end of the ladder, sg university are filled with foreigners especially from PRC competing for grades and since most of them are ’scholars’, many of them scored better grades. I admit this may increase the overall competency of of sg students, I myself have sometimes benefited from them. Yet I also have seen countless of my friends who initially in uni life put in much effort yet still unable to do well because of the bellcurve system. They gradually lost confidence in themselves which lead to a downward spiral in grades.

Furthermore in the current job market, I have friends who are as well qualified as the foreigner graduates but yet unable to secure jobs because their expected pay is higher than the foreigners. It is not totally realistic to expect sg grads to keep lowering down pay expectation. Most still have their tuition loan to pay off unlike most other foreigners.

Though overall sg grads competency may have risen, it does not translate to better job opportunies which is making many soon to be sg grads worried especially in the current job environment.

In short, calibrating the flow of FT may be a much better solution

‘A Chinese Singaporean who can speak Chinese but tries to speak English (until she had no choice but to say in Mandarin) to China Chinese. I am not sure for what, Singapore has this strange values, speaking English means more superior. i speak Chinese to the check in China Chinese at the airport but they still continue to speak to me in China accented English which I found them difficult to understand.’

Chinese=Teochew language? I know only my mother tongue, i.e. Teochew. I tried to speak to prc using Teochew but you can guess their reactions! being chinese themselves and don’t know teochew?

I don’t speak mandarin, which is the national language of china, and is not my mother tongue. thus, to be fair to all races, i use english for work and when i am buying things.

so what is so bad about using english? tell me?

I think the issue is not so much whether Singapore would be better without the foreigners but the government’s attitude towards foreigners.

Personally I don’t have anything against foreigners per se. I mean Singapore was founded by foreigners. All of us at one time or another were foreigners and our prosperity is actually founded on being open to people who wanted to make a better life here. So from that perspective, I have no issue with a PRC National or Bangladeshi worker coming here and working like a slave in order to save money to bring back home to educate kids and so on. I admire that, people with this spirit are the type of people who make host as well as original nation better.

And I also think it’s OK for us to have educated people from elsewhere. People like Indian IT professionals do have skills that we don’t have.

What is disagree with, is the fact that the government seems to assume that “foreigners” good “locals useless. Yes, be open to people but don’t kick the local in the groin.

Look at the argument that we need FT here because the locals don’t have the skills. Yes, in the short run you need to import talent but surely, won’t it be better to invest in educating the local people and giving them the skills to do the job? If local people do not have the necessary skills year after year, who’s fault is it? I mean it can’t be that all the locals are incapable of being trained? Obviously the education system here has a lot to answer for.

Then there’s the issue to National Service. Why should some people be exempt from National Service because they came in from elsewhere and chose to make Singapore their home. If you want to make a life here, you should jolly well pay the price as well as enjoy the privileges.

When talking about foreigners, it reminds me of the influx of new citizens, PRs and FTs. Anyone been to the Expo this week?

Its a large place and still jampacked with people. People like sardines in a can.

I ask myself before and now i ask the You :
1. Can the Expo handle when population about doubles to 6.5million?
2. Can sg Infrastructures like MRT , Roads (as if its not jammed enuf), malls , handle? How much more expensive will ERP be thanks to more people driving cars due to population explosion?

Quality of life?

I seriously wonder if this 6.5mil is an Aspiration or a Definite target?

Can minster of nat dev tell us?
Is this of public interest? Maybe not, cos most are apathetic anyways.

If these foreigners are so “TALENTED”, then they should be staying in thier own countries and helping their country. Or perhaps they are the bottom rung of the talent rung in their country and so find themselves unwanted!

And as a singporean plese dont think so highly of our country our government and our ministers cos you have not live here a lifetime to be able to offer and honest opinion.You ar only prevy to on side of the coin.

Perhaps if you live here long enought then and only then will you understand what all singaporeans have been talking about and why we want a change of government which we feel and no is long over due. Is really funny when you read about all the posiitve comments all these foreign talents seem to say about our country our government and our ministers. Live long long here and I bet you all will be singing a different tune akin to what we are now singing about!

We do need foreigners. It would just be so much better if the ang mohs and all the rest of the China people are construction workers like the Bangladeshis.

122) Marker on December 2nd, 2009 3.33 pm Your bs sound good but maybe to some people who have never worked with foreigners. I have worked with all kind of foreigners you name it, for more than 15 years.

Aussie o level can beat a MBA grad? This cannot happen my friend, we are not idiots. The average Singapore maybe complaining a lot but compared to lazy Aussie, Singaporean is still miles ahead in terms. One of the Aussie grad who worked in my company, took every Friday off to fly to nearby destinations for short holiday. He did take 2 or 3 times a month and when he was back on Monday, there was always backlogs and he gave all the excuses he could find. Just one fine day, he was called to the boss office and shouted at.. because he refused to support a major project, going on holidays again.

If they miss their families so much, they are more than welcome to return.

About tax rate, Singapore tax rate is half of what a foreigner would pay ie 22%. A lot of Australians are trying to escape the high bracket of 47% in Australia.

I can see you are a foreigner and successful in business, this is why a local girl would jump at you but I think you need to get your facts right. Dont come and bs us.

ha ha ha