The following is a comment posted on TOC by “AAA”, under the article, “How Singapore appreciates a PRC who tried to integrate”. The author of the comment describes himself as a “PRC scholar”. TOC tried to get in touch with him but our email failed to be delivered to the email address the author provided.
Nonetheless, we publish it here, without edits, for discussion purposes.
Hi TOC
I am a PRC scholar and I have graduated from a local university, just a few months ago.
I have subscribed to TOC RSS feed since last month, and from here I’ve learnt a lot about Singapore, and how people here view us foreigners. I believe it’s always good to hear difference voices.
Before I came here, I didn’t really know much about how Singaporeans see China, and of course I didn’t know the debate on whether to import more “foreign talents” had been on for such a long time.
Now almost five years have passed and I have started working. I have a more complete picture of this society, its people, and how they think, especially after my 5-month long job seeking.
Firstly, I feel it’s difficult to draw a conclusion on whether your policy is right or wrong. However, when I see a Singaporean trying very hard to communicate with food stall staff who can only speak Chinese, I also feel very “strange”. My feeling is that they are very nice people, but they didn’t go through proper language training, or they are allocated to the wrong place.
When we talk about “integration”, there is no doubt that efforts have to be made from both sides. If you are rational, you won’t make any generalization based on a single incident and/or what you assume to be the case.
China is a very special country. Its complexity and diversity is so huge that it is not easy for pure “city boys and city girls” to understand at first glance. I grew up in a large city with 6 million population, but I got the chance to meet with many people in the countryside, and some of them are my relatives. When the mainland people started spreading overseas thirty years ago, we saw people from different classes going out to find a “better life”, or just make money. Within the country, more and more farmers go to large cities in East China to make a living. Yet, the majority of the population (60%) are still living in villages and small towns. And that, creates the big gap between the rich and poor.
So… when you see a male from China on the street, he can be a businessman, a movie star like Jet Li, a scholar like me, or a construction worker who only earns 700 sin-dollars a month. They are from different regions, with different educational backgrounds, different dreams, and very different “quality”. In large cities of China like Shanghai, it’s exactly the same thing. We are used to that, while I find a lot of Singaporeans are not comfortable or “satisfied” with that, or some of them find the construction workers “annoying”. “Diversity” is a big theme in the world. People of different classes live together, and that’s what a metropolis usually look like in the current world, no matter it’s an European or American or Asian city. Yes, they are making money, and… contributing to this society. Meanwhile, they behave in a way they are made to.
Sorry if I’m wrong.
The real question is: Is Singapore a better place without these foreigners? What would be your plan if you were MM Lee? Is that plan feasible?
Secondly, a lot people settle down in Singapore after coming here, and yes, a lot of them leave this place and go to other countries or go back to China. For me, we are bonded to work in Singapore for six years, and I don’t see a a lot of people go to other countries immediately after graduation. Most will at least fulfill the bond, and then, they will make a choice. That’s the whole story. For those studying in private schools, no matter where they go afterwards, they have paid more than what they get. I think on this issue, you can trust your government. They will do fine calculations.
In term of human development, I think Singapore is in-between China and the US. China is rich in culture and resources, and usually you will find more delicious dishes in China, than in i.e. Singapore. However, a lot of people in China are not that disciplined and polite as some of you. That’s true. And there’re some not so nice Singaporeans as well. And there are very big flaws in the system, which could collapse and cause riots any time. There’s a long way to go.
I really admire MM Lee as a great leader in modern Asia. He leads a small country, but he’s been playing big politics. And he’s one of the few who still have such a clear mind at this age. His promotion of English education is politically successful. However, it makes most Singaporeans not have decent knowledge or even decent language skills in Mandarin or English. You are definitely smart people, but just my advise, you need more “culture”. For example, it’s very hard for me to find a Singaporean student to discuss about Chinese History, or Europeans History, in a decent way. It seems that your system make your “values” limited. It’s also not easy to find gifts to bring home for my relatives.
But overall, Singapore is still a model for China, just like 30 years ago when we just opened up. No matter how rich China will become, if people only go for money without knowing how to care for others and taking social responsibilities, China will never be the Han China or Tang China again.
“Integration” is a long, and maybe a frustrating process. Things will only change when better “understanding” is developed.
P.S. Chinese girls are not coming here to steal your husbands.. LOL, it’s the same thing everywhere. Some Singaporean girls will also “steal” other people’s husbands, right? Human nature.. Just take good care of him and make yourself stay charming. Btw I’m male.
——-
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Hi TOC,
Here I am. I can prove to you I am a PRC scholar, but there is no need. Some of us can speak good and proper English, and I know some fellow PRC students who speak better English than I do. I got A+ once in essay writing in university. But I don’t really think my English is even close to perfection. Maybe from here, you can see the efforts I made in learning English, and integrating into this society.
I was surprised when I opened up my Google Reader and found that my comment to a previous article had become a “top story”. I read through all your comments here, on sgforums.com, and on Facebook. I find some of your views very interesting and helpful, while others, are quite unfriendly, or even full of hatred.
I understand that when talking about such an issue you are all concerned with, it is difficult to be complete and precise. But, please, do not exaggerate, or purposely distort my logic. Please don’t assume so many things I didn’t even mention.
I will explain as much as I can.
Firstly, I want to say that I wrote that piece because I was curious to know how you really think about foreign students like me. I tried to be objective (though nobody can) and friendly, and I didn’t pour any complaints. I was just there to share how I feel, and that’s all.
To Ms Ethan Wang Hui Teng @ Facebook,
What she claims is “hmm. I just hope that they import better people. Most of the china people here are snobs. seriously just look at his comments. He talks as if he is of a higher class than us, more cultured. Seriously, talk about cultured. look at how he highlights himself as a “scholar”. Can’t he just put “I’m someone who comes over here to seek for a better future” what a douche bag. =,=”
I read this for a few times, then I still don’t know how to describe my feeling. If you read carefully, you will understand that my piece was a comment to an article talking about a PRC scholar. That’s why I said I am also a PRC scholar. Please, I never imply I am of HIGH CLASS or what. I’m here for discussion, sharing my views and learn from you, and I don’t know what exactly you mean by “a douche bag.”
THE QUESTION
@Red Herring,
I’m from northern China, and I guess you guys are able to sense that I am not a Singaporean. (@ I don’t believe this author)
I agree with you on the more precise question. The question, which is used as the title of my comment, is JUST a question. I didn’t assume any answer (@mad93). What I thought is since you are not satisfied with the situation, what you would do. Red Herring, I understand how you feel since a long time ago.
ON MM LEE
Some people say I am naïve because I claim Mr. Lee is great. I can’t agree with them.
He will be remembered as a great leader of Singapore, and I believe Nixon and Obama share the same view. When I respect someone, it does not mean I cannot criticize him. You can criticize on his policies and his atrocities, yet, when you make an overall judgment from historical perspective, you can still claim he is good or great. I don’t see any contradiction.
@Feelings – Heart vs Brain. I’m not singing praises for Singapore. But it is true I didn’t mention a lot of not so good aspects of Singapore. And, please don’t assume our values and brains are shaped by government propaganda. Yes, everybody is influenced by that, but we have other sources to help us build a rational understanding of this world, right?
CULTURE
@Regnis, who questions: “Who are you to decide that our cultures is inadequate?”
Sorry, I’m nobody. But I don’t like your arrogance. I’m just sharing my views and giving advice. If you are not open to discussion or advice, it’s ok. I don’t have the right, and I will not JUDGE for you. I’m just telling how I feel. I think I have the right to share my opinion.
Singapore is certainly rich in diversity of culture, but how about the depth?
@Ryvyan,
You are proud of what you know and what you don’t know. But, what shaped your interests? What helps you decide what you would like to know and what you don’t want to know? This is the point I want to address. Inadequate cultural immersion may be something to think about. Education is surely not only about knowledge. It’s about delivering ideas and inspiring thoughts, based on the knowledge you have.
In China, a lot of people claim the education system limits the children’s creativity. We know that, and we admit it. The history bit I mentioned is just an example, maybe not a good one. Gifts of uniqueness is just another.
@curious citizen,
You are right that there are a lot of low quality products from China. I can’t agree with you more. But still, if I get good and clean ones, I will feel it is better. I also like European food. This is just about my personal taste.
LOYALTY
I guess you are more interested in this.
@iain’tnobloomintourist,
Where did I say I am not grateful? Then why do you purposely assume it?
What do you mean by “wonderfool”?
Are you saying I am a wonder-“FOOL”? Or are you just reminding me of the pronunciation of this word in Singlish?
I am very grateful to what I am given, what I get, and every little bit I have achieved.
But, I have some worries.
I mentioned I did my job seeking for a long time. And, we are second-class job seekers.
It’s not easy to become PR these days. I was not eligible to apply for PR until I secured a job. Then for the application, it will take 3-6 months on average, and there is a chance of being rejected.
We all know no experience, no job. If you read through some job advertisements, you will also realize that, no PR, no job. So no PR, no experience, no job. Of course, this is a bit exaggerated. But in way, it tells you the difficulty we experienced in job seeking
Secondly, since I came to Singapore, I have started to get immersed in your opinions about foreigners. {We steal your education. We steal your jobs. It is unfair, and you’re fed up with it, etc.} Above all, we are not welcomed.
We are bonded to work here, and, when we are here, we don’t feel welcomed. (@tiredman)
So, we are on scholarship, and no NS, then we should be loyal???!!!
Loyalty is not about money and benefits; it’s about sense of belonging.
Will we be accepted and be part of you, even if we try hard?
I don’t expect so.
So now you understand Yuan Yuan?
Citizenship? Second-class citizen???
However I’d like to remind those who concern, as far as I know, most scholars fulfill their bonds. This program has been there for more than ten years. Since there is a six-year bond, a lot of people do settle down afterwards, because after six years, they already have their family or even children here. It’s hard for them to make a switch back to China, and they will not easily get a job with the same pay as that in Singapore. This is the logic of this scholarship bonds.
And there were people who broke the bond and paid the money (around SS$ 150K to 200K).
And there were people who just left, secrectly…
Eventually it’s really a personal choice. Everyone is different.
I also don’t care if Jet Li or Gong Li take up Singapore citizenship. They have their own concerns.
ON THE OTHER HAND…
There are a lot of complaints from local people. Trust me, I understand them. I won’t repeat here, as you have mentioned a lot about it.
CONCLUSION
If there is a conclusion, then that will be “we are all fooled by the government”. I agree with some of you on this.
Yet, fairness is always just an ideal. I will have no influence on your political system, and what I can tell myself is: If you are a frequent loser, then you will find a thousand excuses until you feel it’s not your problem. I will still try hard to survive.
Frankly, I felt a bit sad after reading your comments. However, overall I find this discussion is meaningful. But for me, it shall not be continued. Sorry if you are not comfortable with some points I made.
AAA on November 23rd, 2009 11.42 am -
Don’t get so worked up lah.
You don’t know who these bloggists are.
They can be -
(1) clones (writers repeating themselves under different pseusonyms)
(2) outsiders or foreigners pretending to be S’poreans wishing & hoping for death for Singapore
(3) anti-establishment people
(4) opposition supporters (oppose for opposition sake but offers no solutions)
(5) handout people (choosey & unemployed hoping for the heaven to drop food into their mouths)
(6) the world & government owes them a living people
Just be cool & contribute to the well-being of the country through your efforts & hard work brother.
Dear writer, do not admire someone like lky gullibly unless you have concrete understanding of the person! Of course, as a foreign-born scholar, it is quite natural for you to be thankful for the Singapore Government to grant you a scholarship for which not only cover all your expenses, if you are thrifty enough, you may even be able to save-up some money! How much do you know about Singapore’s history and development? Whatever you read from the main-stream-media are just propagandas from the government to deceive the innocent citizens, not to disparage, please have more in-depth understanding before you send-in your frivolous comments! Mind you, not to mention foreigners in China, Shanghai residents also despise Chinese citizens from other parts of China inclusive those from the capital! It is just human natural not uniquely to Singaporeans that have reservations regarding the influx of too-many fts to this tiny island. Hence, I encourage you to read more before you state your comments and opinions. I wish you all the best for your future endeavor but hopefully, you do not end-up as a hubris or self-absorbed person, who abominates your own countrymen in China!
Dubai has 80% foreigners and the citizens are not complaining. Why? Because it is very difficult to get a Dubai citizenship with all the nil taxes and free medical benefits (and of course no national service or 10 years reservist liability).
In Singapore, the Government is totally stingent about giving benefits to the average citizen. They allow loop-holes like this PRC scholar not serving NS and many children of Singapore PRs give up their PR to avoid NS
The ministers and senior civil servants welcome foreigners with open arms, knowing well these foreigners cannot take-over their jobs.
Therefore the only solution is to let one of the ministers lost their job (in their next election). No point talking any more, if you want to save yourself, fellow Singaporeans.
I came to know a China businessman in sg who is PR. He has his family settled here for education as well wife to get a job. He seems to be doing well in business in sg and travels frequently. He realised that there is a problem for China PR who travel needs VISA which to him is troublesome and as well as sensitive issue such as crime offending in sg. He decided to apply for citizenship for himself except his family as his plan is to overcomes problems as mentioned.
I asked him for an honest and serious truth to my question. “Are you sure you want citizenship just for reasons of being troublesomes rather than real reasons and why is your family member not included?
He replied so confidently : “Whatever reasons for, when time comes to go back to China, there is no problem as long as you have money to settle it”
Perhaps, AAA, you may yet to encounter such incident but I believe soon you will.
It is unfair to compare the migration situation here in sg with China as one is external and the other is internal where the PRCs simple move from one city to anor to work/live (that is not even migration to speak!).
While we do need some foreign labour here to take up positions in the service and manufacturing sectors, do we really need that many executive/white collar workers from foreign countries to compete with the locals for jobs?
In the long run, our wages will be even lower (than it is already now) and cost of living will be higher (thanks to the rich PRs snapping up the resale units).
Culture-wise – that is subjective – we can offer chinese/western history as one of the optional subjects in schools for students who are interested but should not be a compulsory subject – afterall why should one be compelled to study chinese history when we are supposed to be born and bred singaporeans and we do have our own culture and history (however short) as well.
If we keep thinking this way – how diff are we then from the PRCs back in China? Shouldn’t we then come under China as one of their city states?
You claim to be ‘PRC Scholar’.
You now use the nick AAA.
You never answered my question.
Would you Quit China ?
Do you like the system here?
You admitted your question is not precise.
This is a big disappointmen for a talent that is a scholar.
You have not impressed me as a scholar talent.
AAA aka PRC ‘Scholar’,
you know what , anyone can type what you typed.
anyone can claim what you claimed.
You could not understand that people are asking you to prove your claim of identity.
You have proven Nothing about your identity. Zilch.
You know what , I am the James Bond. Meesiam with hum.
[i]@iain’tnobloomintourist,
Where did I say I am not grateful? Then why do you purposely assume it?
What do you mean by “wonderfool”?
Are you saying I am a wonder-“FOOL”? Or are you just reminding me of the pronunciation of this word in Singlish?
I am very grateful to what I am given, what I get, and every little bit I have achieved.
But, I have some worries.
If there is a conclusion, then that will be “we are all fooled by the government”. I agree with some of you on this.
Yet, fairness is always just an ideal. I will have no influence on your political system, and what I can tell myself is: If you are a frequent loser, then you will find a thousand excuses until you feel it’s not your problem. I will still try hard to survive.
Frankly, I felt a bit sad after reading your comments. However, overall I find this discussion is meaningful. But for me, it shall not be continued. Sorry if you are not comfortable with some points I made.[/i]
worries indeed you will have..eternaLLEE..which is the MAIN reason i left britain AFTER obtainnin PR…but i do not feel comfortable when if i changed my mind to get married..whether its a local angmor lass or a madeinchina beauty (zhangzhiyi is what i am after not gongli by the way).. the angmor locals/government will alienated her until they are satisfied that she is what she is..not just a bustop waiter(not the hotel/restaurant type) no needs to go further..most of YOUR country persons has already RETURNED home after winnin the gold medals/rewards..includin the poor little girl who was murdered PARENTs… all this people from YOUR country have a sense of belongin here?
you tell me…in the early 70s…it was the same incident..the multi milionaires from indonesia all packed up and abandoned singapore after makin tons of money HERE…the hongkies did the same tricks..1st they pretend to migrate here to start a new life in anticipation of the prejuly 1997…and abandoned so quickly when they find out after july 1997..hongkong still have a better deals as before..
so where are all this sense of belongin are you mubblin here? people here asked you would you or your future kids serve NS to protect fellow singapooreans?
DID YOU SAY YES? without hesistation……………………
thank you..catched my drift? kapish?
“because I was curious to know how you really think about foreign students like me. ”
No rocket science and stop the pretense. Back in your country (here I am giving you the benefits of doubt) and if, only if, your own country is flooded with foreign students & also many foreigners where you cannot avoid to take notice, that is how you feel.
“when you make an overall judgment from historical perspective, you can still claim he is good or great. I don’t see any contradiction.”
Just like Qin Shi Huang and the great wall of china.
“Loyalty is not about money and benefits; it’s about sense of belonging.”
sure but money and benefits do play a great part when it is constantly being emphasized / reinforced by society where the relationship between the governed & the governing seems to be focus on that (something that goes by the word Inc.) and may I know where is your own sense of belonging and why.
“Whatever reasons for, when time comes to go back to China, there is no problem as long as you have money to settle it”
You are right boy. A lot of people just do not understand how other countries work (where money can simply grease your way through harmless technicalities) and here our own blockheads think that citizenship means so much ……..
I am thankful that most singaporeans and PRs if not FTs will not be reading comments here. Else, too many China FTs read this may invite their responses which I worry may create friction.
phew. luckily many are pathetic apathetics.
well done.
Hi TOC,
You can contact me if there’s anything you’d like to know. Now this is a real email instead of the aaa one.
For some of the questions you guys addressed, if you read my previous comments carefully, you will get the answer. I feel tired to reply to you. It’s like 1 vs. 1000. Nothing will be changed, and there’s a lot more meaningful things to do in life. Honestly, I have a feeling that you will not be the ones who will threat the current Singapore goverment and change the system, no matter how much you complain or how angry you look like here. Just my own opinion.
Btw, sense of belonging for me is being accepted, cultural values & family.
One thing I feel really interesting is that many of you question my identity.
Why? This just shows how little you really know about us.
No matter how much hatred or sarcasm some of you show in your comments, I will not care much. I know some people just go online and leave some comments to make them feel 爽. I’m here to do discussion and also learn from you. I won’t feel “losing face” if I accept your idea or realize I claimed anything wrongly. For me, this is the correct attitude to discuss, and learn.
三人行，必有我师焉。No matter who you are.
I appreciate your comments.
AAA,
“I’m here to do discussion and also learn from you”
But your question was phrased in a tricky and ambiguous way which you admitted.
What discussion can be achieved when your question is questionable?
I am sure you appreciate learning so many things here.
Let me ask you back:
Do you think that all so-called talents in singapore are talents?
Why singaporean who served NS plus 13 reservists with microdust allowances with worst than foreigners holding sholarship with at least S$1200 allowances. We singaporean are not giving free education, housing, medical and worst till have to pop up that NS microdust allowances to buy insurance to cover our own ash. Then foreigners who came here are allow to claimed income tax on their parents as well as their sibling in their own nation are claming too. But Singaporean only one member allow to claim on their parents (S$3500 EA) But parents who are earning more than S$2000 per annual then his or her children are not allow to claim. Look they themselves are getting few millions per years then are calculative with that S$2K and S$3500 per annual. Besides, everyone are paying 7% GST- lucrative Tax, then now property tax increase as well for all the singaporeans so called subsidy HDB rental Flat. Look if HDB FLAT are paying the same level of propety tax then should they imposed fixed same selling prices for resales flat irregardless the location. example if Tiong Baru 5room flat selling at S$700K then other area of 5 room flat should also sell at S$700K. If not, then property should should also base on their resales valve right.
I am an American and I have lived in Singapore for 5 years too. Some Singaporeans have joked to me that most Americans think Singapore is part of China. The funny thing is that now I sort of agree with them. 5 years ago, I could get by in Singapore speaking English. Now, I cannot. It’s exasperating to be spoken to in Chinese at coffee shops/hawker centers everywhere. It’s not really the PRC immigrants’ fault for not knowing English or my fault for not knowing Chinese. The Singapore government has created these circumstances for us to deal with. Many Singaporeans might blithely say “so go learn Mandarin” but there is actually an easier solution: return to America. Which I am doing in two months. I didn’t want to live in China when I came to Singapore, but it feels just like Shanghai as the PRC scholar pointed out. In fact, it feels like part of China. The American jokesters are right – Singapore is part of China (in all the ways that really matter). Maybe it’s good for Singapore to become more Chinese; I wouldn’t want to judge. But it’s not my taste – I don’t feel like studying Mandarin. I guess maybe some non-Chinese Singaporeans might not want to either. I like the old Singapore better.
Sad to see a number of you only concerned about the disapearance of Singaporean Chinese. Surely you are aware that Singaporean INdian birthrate is not that different and even the Malays are below replacement rate.
You should be more concerned that the Singaporean culture and Singaporean himself is in danger of disapperaing. If Indian and Malays vanish there will be no real Singaporean culture either.
It is obvious like some of our leaders – some of you are more concerned about being Chinese than Singaporean. A sad day indeed!
to mike @ 56) “He seems to be doing well in business in sg and travels frequently. He realised that there is a problem for China PR who travel needs VISA which to him is troublesome and as well as sensitive issue such as crime offending in sg.”
aiyo, you cld have told that friend, it’s no problem for PRs to commit even serious offences in Singapore. it is a common misconception that PRs will be deported automatically or for convicts to be stripped of their PR status
No so. I checked with ICA already. PRs can remain in Singapore after serving out their jail sentence. heck, singapore prison will even consider release them early to WORK in singapore much like they evaluate singapore citizens.
yap, you heard me right. that’s how lenient singapore is towards PRs. we’re gonna be a hotbed of foreign crimes when casinos open soon. stay tuned!
@67
well i went to Palo Alto and took a drive down to LA, when i reached LA, i was wondering if i had overshot my destination and reached mexico. Also on the way to Miami, i was curious about whether i had to bring along my spanish phrase book just in case, and in the end had to cancel it since my car was broken into.
I recognize the problems you are facing with the communication problems too, and wondered if the 50ish states of america were actually over populated with immigrants. I would not be surprised there will be a time, where more and more chinese immigrants move over to USA. Till then, I wonder if you had brought with you a slice of china back with you or that USA is now also a part of china.
You can run, but in the end, you have to face it. This might be a problem for Singapore now and you can run away from it. What is there to prevent the same problem from happening over in America? You might as well embrace the inevitable just like Jim Rogers had done so.
should have asked why people don’t want to give birth…
I’m not saying I admit my question is “wrong”. What I mean is that I learnt from you that you have more specific versions which may be more relevant to your current concerns. My question is more general, because for me I don’t think it’s only about the “number” of foreigners, it’s about the future of this place in this new cycle of globalisation. But you don’t seem like you wanna talk about it. You are more interested in pouring your anger to me.
Rigorously, there’s no question that is not questionable. If your comment is used as a top story, you will know that. That’s why it is a discussion.
It’s not necessary to achieve anything here. And some of do not have the correct attitude to discuss.
I feel strange when you question me about government’s policy. I am not the policymaker, and I didn’t learn about all your complaints until I signed with MOE and came here. I am also a victim as I mentioned, because I feel unwelcomed. You are asking the wrong person. Question your government instead. I’m only here for discussion.
Goodbye.
Regnis on November 22nd, 2009 10.34 am
Commented on:
“You are definitely smart people, but just my advise, you need more “culture”. For example, it’s very hard for me to find a Singaporean student to discuss about Chinese History, or Europeans History, in a decent way. It seems that your system make your “values” limited. It’s also not easy to find gifts to bring home for my relatives.”
You Said:
My dear PRC scholar, such is our culture- an attitude of looking ahead, striving for progression, and not having too much focus on the past.
My view:
Yes, I agree with PRC scholar that singaporean need a little more “culture”, by culture I mean 文化素质 and 修养. It is more of a emotive and spirtual quality that need time to develop. Singaporeans tend to be moving so fast everyday and don’t take time to reflect. Our schools cramp use with facts and data and as a result we have many knowledgeable people, but few with wisdom.
Think about the last 10 discussion you have. What are they about? How many of the conversation will be about the the beauty of a particular verses or the majestic nature of creation? And how many of such conversation is about material possession, positions and social status?
Don’t get me wrong, the China youth of today is getting less and less culture too.
Don’t think that just because we can build the most glamourous opera house or have the most classical/musical/opera concerts in the region we will automatically be “cultured”.
My 2 cents :-)
@ AAA:
“I feel strange when you question me about government’s policy. I am not the policymaker”
Erm… because you first asked us the question about what would we do if we were MM Lee, and now we’re just throwing back our ideas, queries, and concerns at you?
If singaporeans need not pay and pay so overpriced flats, and COE and ERP and no need do NS (use this years to study more or get job experience), and the system is 2 party system, I would not mind these foreigners because, cost of living would not be so high and quality of life can increase having less stress.
sincerely
Vivian
@72
Wow, I do not think that over in TOC, there is residual anger placed upon you as an individual and that you should feel as if you are the target board for the policy. It is an avenue of differing ideas, some people believe in it and their emphasis might come across as negativity or even to a more extreme end, make hurtful remarks. In the end, opinions are seriously considered and should be directed to the subject of discussion. In theory that is, practical application seeks to undo whatever semblance of grace we would like to attribute to a discussion.
But as you have said, it is but in a quest to seek answers. I do not profess to be able to provide you for much, but at least here, I can give you some idea of a question that is not meant to be answered. It is also known as a rhetorical question, usually the person who asks it, does not intend for an answer to be given, eg Are you from Mars? Its intention was never meant to be rigorously questioned. I would think that would be up the alley of a philosopher who had training in metaphysics or philosophical logic.
However, I think there is sentient unhappiness with this policy, some might say it is necessary and can acquiesce, and there is without a doubt that there are its opponents to it. It just so happens that when emotions get mixed into it, there are always going to be misunderstandings. What I am trying to explain to you is the issue of how different we are from others looking in. Once others realise that and take that into account, they start to reject it naturally and try and explain it away as an anomaly. Just as you remained indifferent when you could have tried to integrate into society.
The issue for us is best served up as an example of a party. We are the host, and we invited a lot of guests to our party. Beverages, food and entertainment provided to ensure everyone at the party is happy. Now as the party is dying out and the guests are hinting that they want to leave after having a good time. As with most parties, there is going to be a lot of cleaning and tidying to be done post party. We as hosts cannot simply pack up our belongings and move on with the guests can we? (this is an example of rhetorical questioning)
This I hope illustrates the sentiment, not explicitly, the feeling of FTs coming here and leaving when the going gets tough. FTs that can contribute and help improve Singapore is usually to mitigate the feeling of us being belittled.
I hope you will not feel aggrieved when you read the remarks and find them caustic. It is but human nature, we feel aggrieved when we hear negative remarks too. It sometimes sparks a vigorous inquiry and in the pursuit, we start to see that we have hastily generalized the FTs into a category.
Now feeling welcomed here is a 2 way street, but usually it depends on you opening up to us first like what you have done. There are others out there who are now extending their friendship towards you. If you still do not feel welcomed then do try and remember that it is but a minority and do not hastily generalize the whole Singaporean population as having an axe to grind with you.
Curious
72) AAA on November 24th, 2009 8.51 am
“I feel strange when you question me about government’s policy. I am not the policymaker, and I didn’t learn about all your complaints until I signed with MOE and came here. I am also a victim as I mentioned, because I feel unwelcomed. You are asking the wrong person. Question your government instead. I’m only here for discussion.”
You are very unintellectual in this aspect.
I agree with #74 Regnis for spotting your self-contradiction.
You have sung the praise. Now, i invite you for a baptism of fire.
Litmus test.
I ask you to give 1 flaw / complain / weakness about the system.
Else, by do you mean its PERFECT, FLAWLESS?
You praised a political policy.
Yet , you could avoid reply citing that its a gov policy you cannot question it.
You said you are not the policy maker and so you cannot respond to questions about policies. This is also unintellectual. People can question gov policies. Why only gov can question its own policies?
Based on all above replies from you, you have given me a lot of doubt about your qualification as claimed. For this , i question your Identity.
YOU have not yet proven your identity.
why not you say you are rich and handsome has psychic power and kidnapped by aliens before?
the Burden of proof is on you.
Actually, there is no need for AAA to ask
and frankly, there is no need for (local born) Singaporeans to answer.
Just leave us Singaporeans alone
and
that will make us Singaporeans feel a lot better.
Please stop meddling with our domestic affairs.
patriot
Proof? How do you expect me to prove my identity? I can give you my passport number, NUS matriculation number (yes, NUS), my name, current working location and my personal blog address. But I don’t think anybody will be willing to do that. Yet, even if I give you these, those skeptics will still believe I fake them. There’s no point to do that. If TOC contacts me I’ll be glad to answer some questions. I have left my real email address.
@#76 I wish my English could be as good as yours in the future, sincerely.
I don’t see the self-contradiction some of mentioned. (@#77) Maybe I just didn’t express properly. My English is still limited. I never say your government is perfect or flawless. There are way too many problems, just as many other governments in the world. I’m open to discussions on this and share my two cents, but some of you made me feel “I am the one to curse”. That’s why, if you want a solution to be exercised, please talk to your government instead. I’m not the one to be hated.
I read some about Singapore history, but surely not as much as many of you guys know, I believe. I learnt how your PAP leaders played with the communists and finally jailed them. And I was trying to find a similarity between the Temasek Holdings and the stateowned companies in China. There’s no need for me to sing praise for them. But I will still consider LKY as great politician in Asian history. Yes, somewhat similar to Qin Shi Huang, as someone mentioned. Don’t forget he was one of the very few who supported Deng’s decision in 1989 Tian An Men incident. That is his leadership style, we all know that.
I can share with you my opinions regarding the policy of importing foreigners. 1. As I mentioned, some serive staff didn’t undergo proper training. They only speak Mandarin and this shall truly be changed. It gives people the feeling that it’s so easy to come to Singapore. 2. Regarding the number of foreigners you should take in, I don’t really know what is the ideal number. It depends on who you allow to go in. Most are still transitional workers who are here for two or three years, I believe. Yes, there are too many of foreigners now, and that’s why it’s more difficult to get PR. But one thing is clear, your goverment does fine calculations, on GDP. They won’t lose money, but they do sacrifice some of the citizen’s benefits. 3. Singapore will “look” more like China or India, at least to some degree, and for now I think it is inevitable in this cycle of globalisation. If not so, the cost to do business and invest in Singapore would be so high that the local economy will decline for sure. It is not like small countries in Europe who have the big EU as their shelter. This is Asia, and Singapore is very different from other SEA countries. 4. Don’t blame us foreigners who come here. Your policy (no matter right or wrong, or just a big loophole) allow them to go in and they have the right to make a choice. If they really try hard to integrate, please give them a hug. Yes, the competition is more intensifying, but it’s really not the foreigners’ fault.
How do you kill off patrotism. Replace the local population with immigrants. Many a colonising power has used this method to quell resistance. China has been very successful with this policy in Tibet. That’s what happening here, Singaporeans are slowly but surely showing resistance to the ruling authority. Many are now looking beyond personal econonic progress and are looking towards human rights. So the best is to replace them with people who put money before everything. So we welcome these immigrants to replace the population. The basic difference about these immigrants and our so called “quitters” is that most if not all Singaporeans who left did not do so monetary reasons. Many did so because they could not agree with the social and political conditions here.
#69,
That’s something news to me, thanks. Ya, indedd we are going to be flooded with hotbed of crimes in sg very soon….
Look, my gf is also a PRC scholar (And a Temasek Scholar somemore) and also major in english, and all damn scholars have to score A. So what is a A worth? They just do not have exposure to Singapore English and their style of english is much more proper. AAA dont write like this.
I am also an editor and sometimes write alot. This essay piece you have wrote have too many words, it will take the average Singaporeans 1hr to write like this. And even more so, for PRC. Or rather, they wont have the patience to write like this, unless they been exposed to extensive writing in their jobs.
Why don’t you write this essay in Chinese?
Somemore, my gf, a civil servant now in China, earns only sin 400 a month…and your idea of contruction worker earns 700 a month..wow, that’s alot for a construction worker.
Like I mentioned, in order to be a PRC scholar, you need to be based in China first and after getting the scholarship in Sg means that you no longer study english but had moved on to other subjects. In fact, your english would actually deteoriate and not written like a straits time writer.
You mentioned you are interested in Sg, there are sites like Outreach, that is more meaningful to you.
What is the most popular forum for PRC ppl in Singapore, do you know?
And you mentioned almost 5 years had passed and you been looking for a month for 5months, what kind of a scholar needs to study for erm…5 years?
@On Holy,
I really smiled after reading your comment.
Straits Time writer? Thank you for your compliments…
As I said, if you are a skeptic, you will still believe I fake everything.
What I could tell you is I was able to understand NUS lecture the first time I listened to it. My English is still getting better, not getting worse.
I put a lot of efforts in learning English when I was in China. I’m confident in my grammar although I believe sometimes my English still looks “mechanical”, and my vocabulary is still limited. There is one webpage online where you can find my name. And that is a list of award winners in the National High School English Proficiency Competition of China in Year 2003. Interested to take a look?
Don’t assume non-native speakers cannot learn English well. And yes, it took me more than an hour to write the first piece.
If I were to write that in Chinese, it would still cost me one hour or so, but surely the writing and the use of words would be more decent. I also write poems in Chinese, if you are interested, I can show you.
The most popular forum for PRCs in SG is sgchinese.com The second most popular is huasing.org. Too easy questions. I registered on both and posted on both.
Yes, five years in Singapore. There’s something called “bridging course” before we started university studies. Then after that, 4 years to get Honours.
If you still worry about my identity, you can question me, and I will answer. But if you insist on not believing in me, then this discussion just goes completely meaningless.
The question posed is: “Is Singapore a better place without foreigners?”
What doesn’t sit well about the way the question is phrased is that it is too black-and-white, much like the PAP’s extremist rhetoric: the choice is between having foreigners or not having foreigners with nothing in between.
These are some of the things that are wrong about the policy. It is:
1. too much;
2. too soon;
3. we’re not even set up for this volume of influx and at this rate; and especially,
4. in so tiny a space.
There are other things wrong with this policy, namely:
1. it is a cover up for past economic mismanagement; and,
2. it ignores the many causes – some of which have only been hypothesized but are worth exploring – of low birth rates specific to Singapore. (It has been shown in many studies overseas, that the birth rates of new immigrants very quickly become identical to the native born population. And why not when the factors affecting the TFR are identical to new immigrants as they are to the native born population? We are still going to be saddled with the problem of low birth rates even withy new immigration if nothing else changes.)
[i]AAA on November 24th, 2009 11.40 am
it’s about the future of this place in this new cycle of globalisation. But you don’t seem like you wanna talk about it. You are more interested in pouring your anger to me.
Rigorously, there’s no question that is not questionable. If your comment is used as a top story, you will know that. That’s why it is a discussion.
It’s not necessary to achieve anything here. And some of do not have the correct attitude to discuss[/i]
but i did asked you a very honest questions on sense of belongin…
you NEVER answer nor rebutted…
would you served NS in the polis mata forces patrollin the street of orchard armin to the teeth if/when osamabinlette is active again?
you didn’t even said NO/maybe or even seek to ask..can i called a lifeline?
why you all china persons are liked that? siamed liked hell if it don’t BENEFIT you @ all..XI PUN SENG LEE (loss money business nocando) har?
@#85 iain’tnobloomintourist
“why you all china persons are liked that? siamed liked hell if it don’t BENEFIT you @ all..XI PUN SENG LEE (loss money business nocando) har? ”
I don’t know why you say this. I answered you about this sense of belonging question, please read my previous comments carefully.
If I have to serve Singapore NS, then go to NUS, then bonded for six years. Yes, I would not have come. If China asked me to serve NS in China, I would go to serve it. As I mentioned, I understand your feelings, including the fact that young Singaporeans have to serve NS. If I were you, I would also feel unfair.
If you were me, would you make the same decision?
My sense of belonging goes to China. Loving China does not necessarily mean loving the Communist Party. I love the country as it was and it is, but at the same time, I criticize on a lot of aspects of it, and I wish it could be better.
It’s not that Chinese people are more selfish or what, just like you are also talking about your rights and your future, which concern both you and your country, it’s the same thing in essence.
There are so many questions you guys posted here. Sometimes I miss some questions, but it does not mean i purposely ignore them. Thank you for your understanding.
Frankly, the question in the article is similar to what SM Goh said, where there seems to be only two(2) choices. With foreigners or without them; One or the other…. nothing in between. If the article revolves around this question, then it is basically a worthless piece.
A better question the author should ask is, “how many foreigners is too many”?
@lobo76
You should read through the comments first. This is a general question which does not only have Yes or No. And we were not only talking about Yes or No.
Is Singapore a better place without foreigners?
88) AAA on November 24th, 2009 1.57 pm
we were not only talking about Yes or No.
> Well, I say YES to the question. Singapore a better place without foreigners FULL STOP
“Well, I say YES to the question. Singapore a better place without foreigners FULL STOP .”
No . . . . .I’d say “Yes” but “Singapore’s a better place without those good-for-nothing boggists.” Period!
Lincoln once said,” Ask not what your country can do for you BUT you can do for the country.”
Remember this is not MALAYSIA!
#84, I concur.
This so-called scholar could is asking a poorly structured question.
Its like a kid asking ‘you are either with us or against us’.
Is life so simple?
I like to ask him : Could China have grown without their ‘innovation’, if you know what i really mean?
Could China invent all the things invented by the west if not japan?
///You can run, but in the end, you have to face it. This might be a problem for Singapore now and you can run away from it.///
Do you not think that a lot of us are already facing the problem head on. As a matter of speech, most of us are grounded here in this country and talking about running, only those with the means are able to do it.
/// What is there to prevent the same problem from happening over in America?///
Let America enjoy their problem, if they care to have it.
///You might as well embrace the inevitable just like Jim Rogers had done so.///
Jim Rogers may be sitting in an air-con room unaffected by all this, just like some of our own scholars. It will definitely be inevitable if all of us just sit still and allow it to happen.
“If I have to serve Singapore NS, then go to NUS, then bonded for six years. Yes, I would not have come. If China asked me to serve NS in China, I would go to serve it. As I mentioned, I understand your feelings, including the fact that young Singaporeans have to serve NS. If I were you, I would also feel unfair.”
wow pian, are you for real ?
please do us a favor and say this to our special group of angels (aka as higher mortals) so that they can wake up from their slumber.
Thank you PRC scholar for making it clear to us who yourself and people like yourself will be voting for if you get your citizenships and are around for the coming elections.
Thank you for being a part of this great scheme to rob Singaporeans of any decent democratic development in the years to come.
From the length of the letter and comments written by AAA aka PRC Scholar,
its seems that he does have a fairly good command of english.
Now, why did he phrased such a question?
Examine his question.
There is bias in it.
He is not as simple a person as he claims to be.
His motive i suspect is more than to have friendly discussion.
AAA, whatever you up to, its not gonna work.
AAA,
Well, when the price of everything is on the rise, the salary does not rise. In some case, get a pay cut. You should know where to divert the anger to when citizen has no way to stop all these nonsense.
When dollar and cent is concern, you cannot pretend no one knows that. When opportunities are concern, you cannot assume that, that concern does not exist. If policies do not skew badly towards one side, you are most welcome here to study and work.
I wonder what is on the minds of these new citizens about the future in a city which will be crowded by more influx to come such that the foreigners exceed the locals?
AAA, i am sure you are confident of retirement and job security.
injoy.
While respecting alternate views on blogs (I thought that’s what blogs are for), this article/author smells like some shit from the NIC. Basically, the message is to accept the FTs coming in.
The clue is at the very last part of the article:
“……”Integration” is a long, and maybe a frustrating process. Things will only change when better “understanding” is developed…..”
Seriously, $10 million budget for NIC to “integrate” the foreigners, and so far what have we seen? Pieces of trash articles like these? WIth some bits of “poor” Singlish to be convincing? Sorry, I am not buying. C’mon TOC, I thought you have more class than this.
As many have pointed out, the actual question to ask is “Why do we need so MANY foreigners in the first place?” Is it the mistake of our Stop-at-2 policy, just like LKY have now admitted the “mistake” of our learning of Chinese after decades of trumpet blowing of an excellent edcuation system. To the author AAA, do you not see similar long-term problems with China’s stop-at-1 policy? No, then you are really a disgrace to your parents, unless you’re one of those “Little Emperor” (aka Brat in plain English).
With reference to America, they have about constant 12.5-12.6% foreign-born population. This is in the land of freedom, where every T+D+H aspire to go, including Singaporeans. In contrast, Singapore now has 36% foreign-born population. The author is thus talking apples while we are talking oranges.
The author has also conveniently forgot what “scholars” can contribute to Singapore. I recall the Health Minister was quite up-beat about our biotech sector coming up with a H1N1 vaccine earlier on–with the large employ of FTs current in that sector. Where are we now? — quitely importing vaccines from elsewhere. Even HK has annouced a vaccine based on TCM. Now, why didn’t we import that 1% of FT that really matter?
Big question then: Is Singapore a better place WITH foreigners???
Okies, I believe you AAA even though your english is too good to be true. But honestly, since you are working in the MOE, you will never know the truth amidst the corruption spread by MOE.
Nobody respect MM Lee, it his papers that promoted him all the time. Where were you during the 60s to 90s when MM Lee provoke our neighbours all the time with his disrespectful remarks, it a lucky thing we are not involved in a war.
Who merged Singapore with M’sian to get better political benefits? Who promote the 2 child policy that led to our downfall? Who disdain the chinese speakers and discriminate against them?
Singapore can be ancient Rome because we have a small population, and can create high happiness level..but we fail..why?
Take Hongkong for example, for more than 3 decades to the 90s, we r trying very hard to overtake Hongkong, Taiwan but failed miserably. Does Hongkong have a MM Lee? Even if we dont have MM Lee, the likes of David Marshell can surely lift us to prosperity after our wealth depends on the likes of Chinese merchants from Penang and Indonesia that migrant to our shores due to discrimination in their homelands.
MM Lee likes to claim everything to him. The reason why Hong Kong and Taiwan lose out to Singapore is that their Police Force sux, and they need to only that point. But then they have a bigger population.
Dont we have poor ppl as well? We have 2000 charities bodies, my god! Take away this 2000 charities bodies, we r dead.
We have no resources, we r just laudering international money with property and housing prices. Look at the USA mortage and u know.
You know why Temasek, DBS are raising money now? If we r attacked by Speculators, we r doomed, and the 1998 financial crisis will repeat again. This electronic cash system is creating virtual economy money and it only a matter of time, some1 found a loophole and burst it.
The property prices are too high, and it needs reining. Imagine if you are a Singapore, and you heard of price increase every 1 or 2 months, you be horrified. Just like the salt and sugar tax in ancient china long ago.
We r thinking of our children, of the Singapore in the future. MM lee is not thinking of us as he funneled all cash to GIC and Temasek. That is why we always have +1 or -1 Billion surplus for Singapore, the rest becomes his in the private companies.
That is why there is a big increase of salary and our budget jumped from 40B to 60B last year and 30B is unaccountabled for. What do you feel, if you r a Sg?
Do you guys and gals really think there will be enough jobs created for a future population of 6 million which is about 3 million more ?
Can singapore produce so many more jobs?
This means creating so many more jobs that based on today’s population, each citizen can hold 2 jobs at one time. This means ZERO unemployment based on today’s population size.
this is a technical question.
@100) Humphrey on November 25th, 2009 3.39 pm
Hi Humphrey,
SG now has 4.9m population, of which 36% is foreigners. So we actually have only about 1m more to go. Though I thought the goal was for 6.5m.
3m referred may be those with a red IC, but that includes “new” & “naturalized” citizens, whatever that means.
It takes 5 FWs to dig a hole (using 1 shovel), more NMPs needed in Parliament to spread the workload of MPs, 4-5 MPs in a GRC (each taking turn to speak in parliament), lots of social workers for debt-ridden gamblers when the IRs are ready, collecting cans from trashbins to resell, people to help integrate (whatever that means) the flood of FT/FWs, etc… You kidding no way to squeeze more… er… jobs… for us?