The issue of FWs is always interesting because it shows a schism among the people. Some people are pro-foreign workers rights, while some are clearly not.
Of course, everyone will pretend to be on one side, by dissing the govt, even when it is obvious everyone’s positions differ on FWs.

The serangoon garden incident clearly showed that many singaporeans do not want to stay together with FWs.

Should the govt listen to people and build the dorms faraway? Or should the govt bulldoze over public opinion and build the dorms next to housing estates anyway?

I don’t think there is a clear consensus even among the public, which is the RIGHT way. But of course, there is a clear consensus on what is the WRONG way- whichever the govt pick!

I do not fail to see, that the government’s interests are on the money & economics (their economics) in doing things. And when it comes to such questions of Humanity, they are very apt in beating around the bush & highly skilled in skirting such queries. Why be so surprised?

frankly where else can we house them? I dont mean the dead.

I think the location near cemetries is due to the lack of space on our little island.

In Taiwan, when I was training the other time during NS, our camp is near a cemetry too..

Lack of space?? Don’t the all knowing government know about this fact?
What about all the other facts like Brain Drain, Aging Populace, and the need to Tweak the CPF till one’s dying age? Oversight, all of them???
If you call your friends over for the night do you make them sleep outside your house on the driveway or corridor??

This is probably a more complex issue, given that many Singaporeans would not be willing to live in close proximity to foreign worker lodges. Add that to spatial constraints, and we’re in a bit of a fix as to where to put them aren’t we? If the lodges were placed in the general housing areas, the argument would be that the gov cares more about foreign workers and immigrants, not considering the security and conveniences of the local population. The Serangoon Gardens incident very clearly highlighted this issue. Point is, that its not merely a government issue. Foreign workers make people uncomfortable in general. How many of us have even smiled at a construction worker before, or is it more likely the case that we walk right past them as though they don’t even exist? So what does the government do? Put them close to other humans, kena whack, put them anywhere else, called inhuman. Where really can we place these poor people?

I do not see anyhting wrong with the location. The Civil Defence also has a camp next to Aman Cemetery, a short distance away. There is also an army camp nearby.

Further up are the campsites for scouts, and schools.

Every day there are flower sellers at the entrance to the cemetery, which also has a mosque. Sometimes Muslim workers who are free would attend the funeral and give their blessings.

What is so demeaning about the location, when it is peaceful, clean and with all the modern facilities? Many of the workers came from homes that did not even have piped water, let alone flush toilets.

I remember Flamingo Valley Condo sits next to the Kassim cemetery in Siglap. Bishan used to have a cemetery.

I have always enjoyed reading TOC articles but I find this one overly idealistic and does not even attempt to propose any possible alternatives to the FW housing problem. Andrew, where would you like the government to build these hostels then? Right beside your house can or not? Come on, no one likes to have FW hostels near their prized property.

Humane or necessity, the end result is the FWs will never be treated as equals.
The government already leads the way in building their domitories far away.

The only concern of MOM and Gan Kim Yong is how to bring in more FWs and earn good levies from each of them to enrich the government coffers. Humanity can take a back seat. Money is more important.

Consequently our social fabric of life for the average citizens are also transformed to the worst. Encroahment of space on public buses, mrt and the like. Do the government really cares in view of such huge influx and now talking about the $10 million to help the immigrants to blend well into our society and take our livelihood away.

What has the government done to our once conducive S’pore?We may be living in a tiny island hell on earth for a couple of years to come.

We do not need too many foreigners in S’pore.

Lack of space?
Go check how many golf courses have we got on our little island.
And while on it, how many % of people are playing the game.

The simple truth is many may be sympathetic to the plight of the FWs living conditions and how the government treated them. And we honestly asked
ourselves, do we really want too many FWs in S”pore?

Many will not like FWs to live as our neighbours. I concur with #9 on the predicament.

Andrew Loh highlighted the faraway dormitory and the inconvenience to the FWs.

Then again with the Serangoon Garden debacle. How can the government solve this conundrum apart from stopping the influx of too many FWs ?

There’s that red herring argument again – “please provide solution”.

First of all, it’s not my intention to provide solutions to problems the govt created. How convenient it must be for the govt to create a problem and when such a problem is brought to light, to demand that solutions be suggested.

Second, even if I were to provide them or suggest them, the govt has shown that it does not take them seriously. The foreign worker issue has been around for years. And aid workers and the media have highlighted the problems they face for years. Yet, there have hardly been anything done to resolve the problems – including housing and the exploitation which go on even today.

Third, the lack of housing for foreign workers is clearly a govt-created problem simply because of the open-door policy it has. This has resulted in an overwhelming number flooding our shores in the name of “cheap” labour. One would have thought that since it is a govt-created problem, one would expect the govt to solve the problem!

Fourth, the question of being humane is one which the minister for national devt agreed with, as I mentioned in the article. And from this humane perspective, it is clear that siting the dorm at a cemetery is clearly not a humane thing to do. I think we are being disingenous if we claim that it is ok for the dorm to be at a cemetery – the proof of this claim is how many of us would live there ourselves.

Fifth, the location of the dorm itself, as I said, smacks of social isolation. Those who work with the foreign workers, such as TWC2’s John Gee, has said that workers need social interaction and be able to have access to amenities. One barber shop, one provision shop, a few stalls in a canteen, do not provide this basic framework for social interaction.

Sixth, the argument that S’poreans do not “like” to live next door to foreign workers is a sad one. Perhaps if one day, one of our races does not like to live besides another race, we should also end up segragating one race from another. Clearly, isolation and segregation are not the solutions. And clearly, the argument is flawed for there are dormitories sited within housing estates and there have not been problems with it. The Serangoon Gardens saga is a different issue as it is more about a particular “class” of Singaporeans’ attitude towards foreign workers rather than one which shows the attitudes of all Singaporeans towards foreign workers.

Seventh, if there is indeed a “lack of space” for dormitories, then it runs against logic that we keep seeing new construction sites for new condos, new shopping centres, new and huge developments. The “lack of space” argument is a convenient one which many have bought into.

i wonder if the dead would mind living with these foreign workers.

There are in fact several cemetery’s situated in housing areas. I live next to a Muslim kramat, so I am not of the view that it is inhumane.
I think it’s too simplistic to talk about Singaporeans ‘liking’ or disliking living near foreign workers, and comparing this to racial integration. It is not true that there are no problems with foreign worker dormitories situated within housing estates. There are security issues, loitering, littering and workers getting drunk and being nuisances. I as a female have had enough bad experiences with workers to be uncomfortable around them. I do not feel safe walking around construction areas, or nearby dormitories at night. Many others would echo similar sentiments. This is not to say that we should generalise and typecast, but I can understand a discomfort with having foreign dormitories situated in housing areas. Alot of it comes down to differences in behavioural norms and cultures. Both sides need to make an effort to blend in. It’s a complex issue.

Having said that, I would say that yes, there have been a huge influx of foreign workers due to government policy, but insufficient management of the inevitable social problems and tension that comes with it on the government’s part.

I am quite unhappy with the purpose of this artilce highlighting the workers’ dormitories.

The post is the work of armchair critics. Let me pose a simple question, does the writer of the post mind if 5,000 foreign workers were living next door to him?

Singapore is small. The limited land has to be used for permanent stuffs, not transient. Therefore it is obvious that the migrant labour masses has to be housed in more remote areas. It is an unfortunate situation that in singapore, remote areas mean cemetery areas. But we have to agree first, transient masses have to be housed in more remote areas.

The argument that we seem to abuse the lower class migrant labour at the xpense of the high skilled ones, is not valid. It is a question of numbers. Large numbers of migrant lower skilled labours require more housing and it is much more viable for high density housing such as those developed by the govt.

I have many gripes about the governement but it is grossly unfair to act as an armchair critic and simply state that the government is not taking care of foreign workers due to the fact they are housed near cemeteries. I sympahise with the government in this respect although it is not the ideal solution. I would not want to make a hoo haa out of this issue to gain political mileage against the goverhment. I have lost my respect for TOC several points because of this posting.

Zero

in europe, it is common to stay near a church which also houses a cementary. nothing wrong if you have a clear conscience.

Zero,

Your question is a moot one. Throwing the question back at the author is disingenous, at best.

But to answer your question, no, I do not mind. In fact, I lived in Little India and interact with the workers for over a year.

- Andrew

Zero,

Also, I am no armchair critic. As anyone who knows what I do can testify.

I am also shocked to hear you say, “…in singapore, remote areas mean cemetery areas.”

really?

- Andrew

Zero,

You said: ” I would not want to make a hoo haa out of this issue to gain political mileage against the goverhment.”

Political mileage? That is another strawman argument which can be thrown at anyone who highlights a problem.

In any case, what political mileage are you referring to?

Zero,

“The limited land has to be used for permanent stuffs, not transient.”

I have never heard this espoused by the govt as a policy. Until it does, your point is at best a speculative one.

- Andrew

Sorry Andrew,

You may have good intentions, but I think you are barking up the wrong tree with this article.

It is better for the Government to house the FWs near cemetaries or housing estates than to not do anything about it and let these people add to the housing pressure for Singaporeans.

Most of us really want a reduction to the mindless influx of FW / FT / PR.

That’s our main concern.

I don’t see anything wrong with the location. I’m more concern about the living conditions inside these housing.

Yes there is a problem in housing foreign workers and most of us are unwilling to live ‘near’ them. So in order to please the public, the govt came up with housing next to a cemetery. Looking within the compound that housed these workers, it is apparently well kept (though I am not too sure how it is inside).

Come to think of that, would the govt, facing the problem of public housing, starts to build flats at locations like these dorms, since there is nothing inhumane as asserted by some of the posters here. What will the take up rate be like? Will it attract big hoo-ha from the public? We have to be realistic to acknowledge that there are indeed a difference in ‘class’ between the FWs and citizens.

Will anyone take up a HDB flat built at cememtery?

Confucius : Do not do unto others what we do not want others to do unto us.

Concerning the dormitory near cemetery, we should not worry too much because our extraordinary MIW as usual can conjure up extraordinary reason such as “the workers should be thankful for the location because the spirit there will protect the workers from harm and loneliness.”

If we justify such housing for foreign workers by saying this is because there is space contraint, then soon we’ll also be justifying sending our elderly folks to other countries for the same reason.

In fact, just a stone’s throw away from that dorm in the cemetery is a home – called Sunnyville. I am not sure what kind of home it is as I didn’t have the time to check it out. But it looks like an isolated area as well.

It would be utterly sad if we use space constraints to justify treating fellow human beings like that.

And as I said before, which one of us would not mind having our homes next to Lim Chu Kang cemetery?

It is easy to justify it for someone else. But when it comes to ourselves, we indeed do not even want them near us.

There is adequate housing alternatives. The problem is that the govt has let the cart in before the horse, so to speak, and now it has a huge problem on its hands. The solution it has come up with is a classic one – private dorms run by private companies. Failing this, site the dorms in secluded areas which, I assume, is cheaper.

However, what we were told by the provision shop owner was that the rental for his place was some $30,000 a month. He said he is paying even more than Sheng Siong!

So to me, I am not sure if it’s really for the welfare of the workers or is it another cheap money-making exercise.

Sheer madness, running a provision shop near the dormitory at $30,000 per mth.
The govt. is really squeezing every blood from the people. Be it citizens or foreign workers.

Eveything the PAP government did has an agenda – to make more money for their huge paycheck. It is very clear cut.

The solution to all these problems will surface when there is nothing left to be built on this red dot. The need for foreign labour could finally be put a full-stop to it.

It is just a matter of time, and time reveals the truth of all things ….

I find the locations of the FWs accommodation buildings in an acceptable location. Singapore is a small island state/city.Please stop making unwarranted and unnecessary remarks to spike the MND for the sake of doing so . There are many apartments and flats built near cemeteries too.Perhaps the authorities should look into providing more amenities/facilities at those building and to make public transport like SMRT buses available near to those buildings. FWs need to commute also for social and marketting needs.

Dear Reasonable and Objective,

How reasonable can you be when you are not even willing to have your abode in the middle of a cemetery but find it acceptable to have these workers housed there? Nice panoramic view from the windows of their dorm, quiet and serene?

How objective can you be to expect the authorities to purposely provide amenities/facilities and make public transport for these FWs? You expect a FW Lim Chu Kang Community Club to be built? Or you prefer a Cemetery Yard Wet Market built next to it and maybe a mini bus depot for them for ease of commuting?

What’s wrong with staying next to cemetery? I too once stayed near cemetery and everyday walked through the cemetery as short cut to take bus.

i am wow! by the number of FWs needed in just the western part of SG alone: 12,000! assuming they are working in the west or else doesn’t make sense for FWs whom work in Changi to stay in Lim Chu Kang.

Looking from the photos above, the dorms appear quite nicely built with basic amenities avail to the FWs. Apart from its “neighbours”.

i am no supporter of the PAP one party regime, but in this instance, i am willing to cut them some slack on this effort lah.

kudos to TOC highlighting the works and reporting by NGOs that are concerned with the welfare of FWs. Make the public aware and the PAP cannot ignore public opinion.

keep up the good work all.

Re StayNearCemeteryBefore :

Maybe you can ask these as well:

Whats wrong staying beside whorehouse?
Whats wrong staying within drugpusher neighborhood?
Whats wrong staying beside cesspool?
Whats wrong staying beside pig shed? (for muslim)

Obviously I am not saying there is anything wrong. Whatever PAP does, it must be right.

I think Lim Chu Kang would be redeveloped in future as another haven for Singaporeans. The cemetary may be relocated. Land reclamation seems to have stopped due to price of sand.

After the 2 IRs are built, I wonder what cheaper, better and faster ideas they have.

http://www.ura.gov.sg/mp08/map.jsf?goToRegion=SIN

In fact it isbetter next to cemetery because it is a quiet place, and the dead would not disturb you.

Actually, I find there nothing inherently wrong about living next to a cemetery. My friend lives opposite a columbarium, but doesn’t mind it because it doesn’t smell or whatever, and is fairly peaceful and nice to jog around.

Rather, it isn’t the surroundings per se, but the underlying reason why they have to live there. Let’s be hypothetical for a while?

Lim, a hardworking Singaporean, earns money enough to buy a nice 5-room flat in Jurong West. One day, an European expatriate family moves in to the flat opposite him. Lim looks at them disgustedly and says to his wife, “Darling! I think we should move house. Our daughter might not be safe living here. Later the European man rape her how.”

Maybe it’s just my guess but at least some people would find that hypothetical situation a bit strange. “What’s wrong with having Europeans next door? They’re just foreign, they are people too!”

So what’s wrong with having Bangladeshi, Chinese, Indian or Thai workers near your home? Not even next door – about three, four blocks away. Most of us don’t even know our neighbours three, four blocks away. What has a foreign-worker population living there got to do with us? If you say they litter, Singaporeans litter too (check out public parks early in the morning), if you say they pee randomly around, so does my neighbour three floors up and he’s trueblue Singaporean, and if you say they make noise, so do the hundreds of people who like to blast karaoke late at night.

It might be painful but if you think, “I have a right not to live next to a Bangladeshi worker dormitory”, you might just be racist.

By the way, I find this title very cutely polite.

Social isolation? Do you mean involuntary apartheid?

@12) Andrew Loh on November 1st, 2009 10.36 am

“…First of all, it’s not my intention to provide solutions to problems the govt created. How convenient it must be for the govt to create a problem and when such a problem is brought to light, to demand that solutions be suggested…”

I think Andrew’s views should bring us back to earth. Problems are created for us without our consensus (minus the “voted them in” shitline), yet times and again we are at each other throats over individuals’ views, grammar, language, etc. Another reason why it is not in the govt interest to nurture a nation?

Again, do we need 36% foreign content in Singapore? Even big countries like America (12.5%) and Australia (23%) doesn’t go to such extremes. And pls, don’t anyone give me shit on me sound like a protectionist — that is another poor excuse for bad policies in the first place.

Remember again, the 36% are mainly working age people. That means on the bus, MRT, road, workplace, etc.. the ratio of foreigners to WORKING Singaporeans would be even stacked against the locals — hence this sense of “overcrowded”.

Imagine, countries with less foreign content ratio can have their single Chinatowns, etc.. Think what 36% means to a small country — maybe 2 or 3 Chinatowns or Indian enclaves!

I have a solution to our problem.

We pay the local young man 1st world wages benchmark with those pals in Europe and US to do construction.

I am sure many will jump in and so do I.

We have no need for those FT since many young lad here got no jobs no where no future.

Since PAP already made so much $ even with market subsidies, why not transfer it to the young people. We will have no lodging problems in putting up those FTs.

You hear that PAP, you blood suckers. Even dracula in those cemetary do not disturb people as you do.

Our government make more than corrupt leaders elsewhere.

Many of our managers made world class salary.

Our construction worker earn less than a begger. (try begging 1 month without being caught, I sure you earn more than site worker)

why why why.

why our low level laborers earn less than europe but our leaders earn more?

why why?

Our young boys has no future no hope no access to womb to fertilize someone, our country are sterilised rank among the lowest in world

why why?

Why only bankers has job credit why no job credit for workers in construction?

Our young people being paid same amount of monies doing those construction can easily kick out those FT.

So PAP create these problems. Now can you see it?

You are right that this problem is created by the government. By all recogning, the economy in Singapore is still in crisis and there are many in Singapore who still cannot find gainful employment. I suggests that the employers repatriate these FWs and give the jobs to the jobless Singaporeans instead. This way, we would solve the FW housing ‘problem’ too.

imagine that you are a FW. concerned citizens in the country you work in think that your living condition is very bad of which you are living in an apartment like a normal HDB in singapore. extremely enthusiastic, these citizens pull out some political stunt which the government had to comply.

now u live in a 20 room bungalow with swimming pool and a gym. but 90% of your salary u earn has to go to accomodation.

how will you feel?

come on they live in somwhat shabby house back in their hometown. this is not discrimination if you dont believe go search online on pictures and reports of their living condition in their country. moreover its not like accomodation is one of their major concern. they normally only spend the night there and most likely on their bed thinking about their families back in hometown instead of brooding over the location of their dorms.

mayb our concern is not their concern. if theres soemthing really should be done more effort can be directed to their welfare in terms of salary or into conflict resolving between them and the companies who hired them.

but i have to say their location is not the best of all but is this issue on the minds of the FW? try to put yourselves in their shoes before you post anything.

“In fact it isbetter next to cemetery because it is a quiet place, and the dead would not disturb you”

that is very selfish thinking from human perspective. Have you ever think if the cemetery will be serene and peaceful with foreigners become rowdy at night, disturbing the peace of the dead ? Who can the dead complain to ? Marlboro Tan ?

Just because someone like to eat shit doesn’t mean the rest should too. Just because someone has no problem staying near the dead doesn’t mean the rest should follow too.

Why is living near a cemetary a big issue now? There are still many homes that are quite near to cemetaries. It wasn’t too long ago that even more of us lived near big cemetaries. Of course that isn’t something the young generation remembers now. And these same young generation probably doesn’t know many of the estates are sitting on former burial sites.

Bishun was a former burial ground, any problem with living in Bishun?

Re Singaporekia :

Maybe property developers should build a few hut deep inside the Lim Chu Kang necropolis for our ministers to see whether is there any problem.

Or HDB should make few blocks there to see whether it can be sold?

Ya… definitely no problem for me definitely.

I repeat. ALL ABRAHAMIC RELIGION BELIEVE CORPSE ARE UNCLEAN.

“Bishun was a former burial ground, any problem with living in Bishun?”

Nearly every part of popular estates of Singapore, Jurong, Clementi,Bishan, Holland etc were once a cemetery. No problem having a past history of been a cemetery as long as it is no longer a cemetery now. People’s memories are short, forgetting or even disbelieving that the place they live is once a cemetery. But to think that they are now living beside a cemetery right before their eyes ? A building situated beside a cemetery and a building which build on top of cemetery land require different perspective.

eg Building in Singapore is a once really affordable, but are the building on the same ground affordable now ? So can we say that flat which is affordable then is affordable now ?

The true test is not whether someone else has no issue having their house situated beside/near a cemetery, but whether YOU, the one that comment nonchalantly about non-issue about house beside cemetery, have issue staying beside one.

If I may ask, what is the most appropriate recommendation when it comes to the issue of FW accomodation?

I worry that an over-zealous critique to every instance of FW’s accomodation may be read as a leaning towards recommending welfarism for FWs; i.e. the state are entasked to ensure the welfare of foreign workers when these workers are actually a direct responsibility of the employers.

I personally feel that the role of the state here is to set regulations for minimum care of well being that the employers must adhere to and exercise due diligence to ensure the optimum minimal care as regulated are met.

This way the onus is on the employer to either 1) provide for the FW they employ as per requirements or 2) provide the monetary allowance for accomodation pegged to rental quantum to each individual worker to allow them each to find a suitable accomodation.

For instance, if the minimal requirement for every individual worker is pegged to the minimal requirement of every NSF soldier undergoing BMT, the employer has little choice but to look out for accomodation and facilities of that standard or better. Employers are at liberty to explore the market to fulfill the requirements.

On the part of the worker, the state should allow union formation and representation to negotiate for better than minimum living standards. Anything under the minimum is non-negotiable and any failure to comply should be seen as a criminal offence against the regulation as well as against the particular act of neglect/abuse similar to employment regulations of Singapore Citizens.

This way, every employer will have to take into consideration the true cost of employing FW which includes the cost of planning for accomodation, care and well being of every individual worker.

With the true cost of employment reflected on the employers accounts, inclusive of possible deterrence penalties accrued, employers may have to reconsider their recruitment practices to include Singapore Citizens through a more attractive employment and remuneration packages.

Forcing the government to clean up after the employers would mean taking resources from tax-payers (including opportunity cost of time taken away from planning for citizens) while the employers retain unrealistic profit margins for themselves.

Re Lifeobzervr :

It will not cost the tax payer an iota. All our monies saved through employment of FTs has been squandered by Ho Ching in the casino.

Ho Ching used our saved resource to bail out ailing American Banks and to pay those crooked CEO millions.

The government just simply takes in less revenue by hiring locals so that they will not give it to wall streets blood suckers.

After all those government just need to sell land at lower price to make up for higher labor wages. That is good to deflate a property bubble.

Our government has been proven stupid all the way long. Even Paul Krugman compared LKY with Stalin.

So you think our government clever? Better monies in our pocket rather than they help us invest.

“If I may ask, what is the most appropriate recommendation when it comes to the issue of FW accomodation?”

What better way to have these dormitories situated beside/inside Ministers, LKY, Istana, and presidents’ vicinity ? I recall those place they stay in are all very large spacious area, with many empty land ! What a waste ! Shouldn’t all these clowns be responsible for the issues created ? Why must always be the citizens and the dead be the one paying for the planning of those coffers ? In addition, there will be stringent security, police, Gurkhas guarding those clowns’ housing anyway. Since the clowns think that having many foreigners don’t create issue, then let foreigners live near them then. Whose known, LKY, and MIW might just enjoy staying with those foreigners !

The clowns can never understand the issues they cause until they are experienced themselves.

Actually, we should all be examining the crux of the issue, i.e. why there seems to be an incessant influx of FWs.

It will be too easy to finger point at the govt for resorting to collecting levies of FWs as a form of revenue. I sincerely doubt the gravity of this rationale.

The incessant need to acquire a bigger, better house has resulted in an upward spiral of demand in residential properties. Developers need to ride on this demand wave and to offer as much supply at the highest prices as possible, resulting in a continuous slew of condo launches. Question is who is going to built these condos? Singaporeans ? And with more condo properties come the issue of maintenance, and who is going to clean & maintain the condo compound ? Singaporeans again ?

Guys

for those of you who think its not proper to house them next to a cemetery, please ask the govt to locate them next to your hdb block.

Lets be honest. no one wants them in their neighbourhood. you think the value of your property will increase if you have them? ask the Ministers to have them housed in their Bukit Timah, River Valley etc areas.

i agree. where are you going to house them? no one wants them in their neighborhood. People just keep shouting that the government is at fault! put them in their homes! Just not near mine!

Seriously, where Would you house them? Wat are the other viable alternatives? Housing them at worksites? letting them live in filth?

I agree with #52. I think we have let in too many for SG’s capacity to house them. We need them, but the numbers may be getting unmanageable. The Social cost is too high.

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Seriously, i would have no problems living next to a cemetery. In fact, i hope it’s a big one with no tall buildings surrounding it, giving me a great view of the surrounding nature. I’d rather live there than live in a place surrounded by noisy, crammed HDB blocks.

what do you expect these FW to stay?? be your neighbours??? face it, singaporeans do not like to stay with them… ITS A FACT!
At least they do have a proper place to sleep…so what is beside the cemetery….and pls, stop comparing singaporeans to all these FW……i dont like it!!!

The problem can be solved, it just up to them if they keep on focus on huge profit return, GDP and answerable to shareholders with no passionate on those middle, low, jobless & elderly citizens. They got to imposed minimun wages said S$1600 in SG ensure every singaporeans got job. I strongly believed with minimun wages policy more singaporeans are willing to take up offer even is manually labour intensive therefore boots up local moral & own domestic market. By doing so more singaporeans would have job therefore less rely on foreigners. Beside government got to bring down the cost of living here (GST, medical, education, housing,PUB, transportation included taxi, removed property tax & TV License Tax etc), and allow every members to claim tax on elder parents rather present policy only allow one member of the family to claim, therefore everybody got more money saving for retirement & not burden their next generation where present majorities elderly were paid too low and old become a huge burden this present generation where we are suffering now.

We should send back foreigner construction worker to solve the problem. They did no benefit to people. Allowed me to explain.

They lower construction cost, but that saving do not benefit us. We get more and more expensive housing each year and government earn more and more and brag about more market subsidies.

And scandalous monies government earned was given to Ho Ching to bet in wall street. Ho Ching a serial failure since micro-polis, global crossing, Shin Corp, Merryll, Barclay…etc.

And also to those idiot in GIC that cannot outperform S&P.

If FWs are gone, companies would have to raise wages to attract locals. And eventually it will be attractive enough that locals jump onboard.

And PAP would need to sell land at lower price, effectively transferring our monies back to us. It will reduce Ho Ching’s purse when she visit wall street casino.

Good for everyone.

Then PAP would not have excuse to accuse our young people lazy and choosy….etc

Can you see that readers? PAP is really the problem.

the dead cannot even have peace…..

A few points.

The main issue to me should not be about the location of housing near the cemeteries and columbariums but whether the conditions inside meet the kind of standards we would allow ourselves as citizens to be subjected to.

This isn’t an issue of space but whether standards of health, safety and sanitation are met.

Now, to preempt the retort about whether I myself would personally mind staying in such a place, I will say this:

1. Half of my NS life was spent in the vicinity of cemeteries and columbariums. Also, I have had to walk through them as part of my training.

2. I studied for 4 years in a school located right beside a columbarium. Our teacher would bring us to the columbarium to explore and learn.

Now, there is the matter of sensitivity. I am unsure about the cultural implications for the foreign workers living in these dormitories situated beside the cemeteries and columbariums. If there are indeed cultural and religious implications, then we should accord them respect and not house them there. Where, of course is another question.

Another thing, I don’t think it is just about the fact that the dorm is located near cemeteries and columbariums but for far away it is from everywhere else. That place is really quite ulu. I know. I just did my reservist there. Even walked pass the place.

Mental thought experiment” What if we built the dorm near the tombs located near Macritchie. There are a lot of private terrace, semi-detacheds and bungalows there. Would be being beside dead people be an issue if the dorm was on prime land?

Hi Ian,

You sounded like a sensible person to me though I suspect you lack a sense of realism. You ask a question and attempted with greyish answers, i.e. you did not answer your own question.

You asked yourself if you would personally mind staying in such a place, you bring in your NS life and your school life. The fact is, would you, together with your family,. young and old, stay in such a place, as a home? Even if you said yes and know, I reckon both the answers are half hearted. I confessed, mine will also be the same as yours.

Personally, I feel there are better places than within a cemetery. I am no saint and I do not know where exactly is good. I am only an ordinary Singaporean, not earning the pay like the almighty ministers, whom are wise and learned. My guess is that there aren’t enough consideration placed on this issue during the planning stage. Can a group of wise men in the various authorities not brainstormed enough to derive a better decision on the final location? What were the key considerations? We really have no means to get the answers.

Ian Timothy,

“The main issue to me should not be about the location of housing near the cemeteries and columbariums but whether the conditions inside meet the kind of standards we would allow ourselves as citizens to be subjected to.”

So, if the dormitory was situated in a desert or in the middle of the jungle, it is ok as long as “the conditions inside meet the kind of standards we would allow ourselves as citizens to be subjected to”? What utter nonsense. Would any Singaporean buy a house if it was situated in such an area? Would you allow your children to grow up in such an area?

You talk about having lived among cemeteries and all but you have missed an important point – you and all S’poreans have a choice in this. The foreign workers do not. Why?

1. The low pay they receive barely is enough to keep them alive.

2. The moment they’re brought into S’pore, they have no choice in where they are made to live. So, we see them being housed in containers, in shophouses crammed together, in worksites which are sub-standard, etc.

For a first world country and one which repeatedly boasts of being a compassionate society, housing workers in a cemetery is by no means humane. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

For all of us S’poreans, we have a choice of where we want to live.

These foreign workers have choices thrusted upon them.

I think we need to balance idealism with pragmatism here.

On one hand, which Singaporean would honestly want to stay in a dorm next to a graveyard? On the other hand, are there any alternatives for these FWs? Is housing these dorms next to HDB estates a source of more social unrest and disenchantment with the government?

If there are no alternatives, then the next natural question would be: Why is there no more space? Is it due to over development? I think when you think of it this way, it is quite clear where the source of the problem lies… it is a policy issue really, and has a lot to do with the government.

Ian made a valid point: What are the cultural implications for the FWs staying there? Is it a strong sentiment? And if they don’t mind at all, then I have no reason to object really.

62) tender on November 2nd, 2009 5.03 pm
The fact is, would you, together with your family,. young and old, stay in such a place, as a home? Even if you said yes and know, I reckon both the answers are half hearted. I confessed, mine will also be the same as yours.

The fact is, you should be asking Ian if he might stay in such a place if he was WORKING OVERSEAS for a finite period of time. why would you bring in ‘family’ at all?? totally apple and orange.

“Ian made a valid point: What are the cultural implications for the FWs staying there? Is it a strong sentiment? And if they don’t mind at all, then I have no reason to object really.”

Rather than saying if they don’t mind at all (seriously you asking the foreigners who are openly exploited by employers ), the question is “Do they even have a choice to raise objection ? “

““Ian made a valid point: What are the cultural implications for the FWs staying there? Is it a strong sentiment? And if they don’t mind at all, then I have no reason to object really.””

Isn’t it like asking the citizen if they mind having CPF Life when they don’t even have a choice of whether to have it or not ? Don’t even need to object and dis-object.

“And if they don’t mind at all, then I have no reason to object really.”

Terence, that is a cop-out. There are almost a million of them. And for sure, some of that million will not mind. But does that make it right? I think we have to be bigger than that, more compassionate than that.

As you said, the problem is the policy. Without first ensuring that there is infrastructure enough to cater to these foreigners, the govt has opened its doors to them – a million of them. That’s an astounding number.

And without the infrastructure, we house them wherever we can find space, even in containers in ulu, mosquito-infested places and in cemeteries. It is sad to me to hear things like, “As long as the conditions inside are ok…” and “As long as the workers are ok with it…”

The simple principle we should live by is this: Do not do to others what you do not wish others to do to you.

And by this, none of us would live in ulu, mosquito-infested areas, or in cemeteries or in containers.

No?

The Deads are the person who should complain .Human being built their dormitory near their resting place.Create noises,took photoes and put them in the net,talk how bad staying near their castles….They are not only disturbed,but also face a security threat.They are also worry that one night,someone one will carry a changkol and start digging and took away their gold bracelet etc. from their bodies .Can they complain to URA why is there no sookoority guard on duty?Pls let them Rest in Peace.
What is wrong sleeping near a cemetery.Not everyone has a chance.Show more concern on our singaporean who sleep in the parks,open area etc who risk being picpocket or robbed,face the authority’s spotcheck etc…Many homeless citizen need your attention.The FWs dun mind staying there.Get the fact right.

as the sayins goes…
a house is better than no roof @ all whether its near a cemetry or the cte highway
try workin in a foreign country and suddenly find out that you cannot even afford the weekly/monthly rentals….
last but not least..try rentin a room which housed 4 bunkmates in a shophouse upstairs which have 4 bedroom makin a total of 16 roomates in 1 sharin 1 mini kitchen and 1 jumbuan…
rental wise? only $200/month nia…has anybody ever wait in line just to brush your teeth..have a crap before startin work?

Agongkia #69;

“Show more concern on our singaporean who sleep in the parks,open area etc who risk being picpocket or robbed,face the authority’s spotcheck etc…Many homeless citizen need your attention”, unquote.

A good call my friend !

The foreign workers that i know are all very resilient, able to adapt to any environment and are real survivors. They are not softies neither are they very demanding.

By the way, graveyards were preferred over temples by travellers in the olden days in China and i surmise it was/is because the deads do not molest, rape, rob, cheat, exploit and bully the living beings.

patriot

72)patriot
Enjoy seeing you here.Thanks for reading and sharing.

I just feel that Human has their so call rights.The Dead should also have their right..The Dead are also past singaporean who had contributed in one way or another.They deserve to rest in peace.They do not mind and do not complain about human moving in to become their neighbour but that does not mean Human has their Rights to despise them by feeling down graded or low class to stay near them.
And hope no one uses this excuse to expedite the closure of these graves instead of the relocating the dormitories elsewhere and start building flats or condos..Spare some thoughts for our Deads.Some deads just love to be buried and not cremated becos there is a saying”Lu Thoo Wee Arn”and not “Sze Wu Chang shen chze Tee”

[...] among the dead” By Matt Today’s inspiration is Andrew Loh’s article, titled “Social isolation – left among the dead” . In essence, the article asks: Is siting a dormitory for foreign workers directly beside a cemetery [...]

[...] "Why leave them among the dead – literally?" Andrew Loh [...]

Hello fellow Singaporeans, I really hope that you are really reading this. There are reasons why such dormitories are built in certain areas. This is to deter those foreign workers from commiting offences against the locals. An example is that, those FW’s would sit under the void deck especially on Saturdays, drinking beer, leaving empty beer bottles, urinating at the corner of the void deck and/or disturbing house maids. I had heard of aldultery happening before. This is why it is built in, at the far end of the cluster of Muslim, Christian and Chinese cemeteries, the dormitories are isolated. The nearest housing estate and shops are in Jurong West, at least 5km away. It’s good that they are built far from our area.

Only those in the enforcement line would agree with me. There are always bad guys among the good guys.

Anyway, they are humans just like us. They won’t commit criminal activities unless they are being paid by locals(syndicate). See that??