What wrong with being a communist? Japan, German and all the first world countries all have a communist party. It represents a different idealogy only.

Kudos to Dr Lim for sticking to his principles and refusing to be bullied into submission.

Perhaps singapore too may see such a party forming in future, especially with the influx of PRCs being accepted as new citizens (in case someone forgets that they are afterall from a very successful communist country i.e. China).

So what then?

I hope if Dr Lim is still able, that he can contest in the upcoming election as part of opposition.

I am sure he is an asset to any opposition party he join being such a courageous and upright person.

People like him will never compromise his principals and cower before oppression and injustice.

Singapore Future with Influx of Foreign Citizen will have Communist Party, Democratic Party. Republican Party. Tamil Tiger Party. Tamil Lion Party.Dinosaur Party. People Active Party.

It always sadden me greatly to read stories on political victims in Spore. By virtue of using the draconic ISD, totally innocent personals can be made victims as they have no ways to seek greivance… since no trial is needed. It is really sad that such barbaric methods are still being used in our own backyard.

However, it is even more saddening… when Singaporeans conveniently disregard and forget about these people who had once fought for us… to an extent that they have gave up and sacrificed a significant amount of their youth and feedom. Mandela served 27 yrs as a political prisoner for a purpose… South Africans still remember him upon his release… but how about people like Dr Lim and Chia Thye Poh? Did anyone gives them a damn when they are released? In fact, how many Singaporeans have heard of these fighters before? By my reckoning… few and far… almost zilch among the younger ones…

To a certain extent I feel many Singaporeans are a damn hopeless lot… there is no point trying to fight for Singaporean’s rights… most wont be impressed nor grateful… instead they will think these people are doing stupid things and wasting time. Such is the kind of apatheism in our society that, I feel, will very likely lead to Singapore’s decline… since no one feels the need to fight for the nation. Singapore is all appearance… not has no soul.
How long can Sinapore continue to keep up with its beautiful appearance?

“What wrong with being a communist?”

it is not the labeling which is important which unfortunately a lot of people tend to get trapped in this human fallacy. It is the harmful acts which we need to look out for.

the financial crisis apparently came about from the results of some acceptable activities under the free-market capitalistic mechanism.

what is so good from this free-market capitalistic activity which apparently has now given good ground for a apparently much greater self-professed communist country to shine now in the economic arena.

This is what Thomas Jefferson said about suspension of rights.’

“Why suspend the habeas corpus in insurrections and rebellions? The parties who may be arrested may be charged instantly with a well defined crime; of course, the judge will remand them. If the public safety requires that the government should have a man imprisoned on less probable testimony in those than in other emergencies, let him be taken and tried, retaken and retried, while the necessity continues, only giving him redress against the government for damages. Examine the history of England. See how few of the cases of the suspension of the habeas corpus law have been worthy of that suspension. They have been either real treasons, wherein the parties might as well have been charged at once, or sham plots, where it was shameful they should ever have been suspected. Yet for the few cases wherein the suspension of the habeas corpus has done real good, that operation is now become habitual and the minds of the nation almost prepared to live under its constant suspension.” –Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1788. ME 7:97 ‘

Shame on you PAP.

5) Say no to nonsense on November 16th, 2009 12.14 pm

“…..To a certain extent I feel many Singaporeans are a damn hopeless lot… there is no point trying to fight for Singaporean’s rights… most wont be impressed nor grateful… instead they will think these people are doing stupid things and wasting time. Such is the kind of apatheism in our society that, I feel, will very likely lead to Singapore’s decline… since no one feels the need to fight for the nation. Singapore is all appearance… not has no soul…..”

My friend, I share the same feeling as expressed in your last paragrah!

It is just like cancer. We know there is this thing call cancer but we can’t be bother to find out what causes it and how to prevent it from happening. We have the “it will not be me” mentality. However, by the time cancer strike us, it is often too late to do anything about it.

I just love the way he speaks, what a guy.

When i think of MM crying on TV, I feel like laughing.

Thank you TOC and Martyn See for the video. Dr Lim made an excellent speech.

20 long years taken away, no, stolen from him. Just because Dr Lim has the courage of his convictions. My heart grieves at how man can do so much harm to their fellow men under the banner, or, should it be, guise, of national security.
With the benefit of hindsight, will it be closer to the truth to say that Dr Lim and his comrades were incarcerated because they were political opponents to those in power?
I would be grateful to hear from our political analysts who have both the strength of institutional memory coupled with a depth and breadth of historical knowledge to share their thoughts on this era of Singapore’s dark days.

The objective of labeling Dr Lim as “communist” was to give the government the moral justification to detain him by portraying him and the others as a threat to nation in the cold war era . As we know today , the operation was politically motivated to retain the PAP’s grasp to power.

What most digust me is that the the facts were twisted and the PAPpies maintain they have the highest integrity and are whiter than white when such horrible deeds are committed.

Thank you Martyn See… for showing me an important part of the history of Singapore.

That is kind of brutality patriot has to endured ? SHAM law !

Can the author of the video make public the transcript of the video ? It will be useful as reference quote. Or did anyone already “painstakingly” type the transcript to be available here ?

Man of integrity. My salutes!
A Son of Singapore, ahead of his time.
10 more years for non-issue of repentence statement?
Would acknowleging repentence mean admit to wrong doing?
I can only wonder.

I just wish Dr Lim better health to witness change coming to singapore in less than 10 years, which is the time i suspect change to really come.

We must last more than 10 years to see that day come.

Could any of our elites REALLY Truely know what the kind of life must be like for these ex-prisoners?

Can Obami comment on this video?

Can Kissger comment also?

Can Charlie Louse Comment as well?

Can Hum. rights group comment also?

“Compelled to withdraw their Accusations”

This is shocking.

I wonder are these ex-detainees surprised that Lee is still very much in the picture after so long they were in a cell?

There is only 1 way out.

Dr Lim is right in saying the PAP or the government should not be commenting and fighting for human rights if they realised what had been done to innocent people without trial. LKY is a sinner, always will be.

When I watched Dr Lim, I cried and I felt sad for this man and what he has gone through is wrong and terrible.
However we must not adore his ideology. Communism is not for Singapore. We will be worst than what terrible stage we are in now. Communism will rob us of our right to vote and there is no general election every five years.
With communism more people will be treated worst than Dr Lim and we will take a ride back for the worst.
The consequence of the war of ideology there is a price. Yes a price very high to pay but I support democracy.
If you support communism so much, let me warn you, the PAP will support you and bring in communism to govern us.
Though I hope more opposition is voted in, but between communism and the PAP, i better go the latter way.

Its completely shocking to know there were such strong character people in singapore.

Singapore of today has no such strong man.

Dr Lim is strong to have survived the tortment of imprisonment for having different political views.

Just now, Obama was ‘live’ on TV taking questions from top uni students of china in a town hall meeting.

He said something like this:

1. People in power do not like to be Criticised. But Obama take it differently. He is greatful for Democracy to allow people access the internet freely and to communicate openly and to FORCE LEADERS TO HEAR WHAT THEY DO NOT LIKE ABOUT THEMSELVES. This Democracy makes Leaders Stronger and Better.

He is all for Citizen Participation.

While he is pro-Democracy and Freedom, he acknowledges that nothing in life is perfect. For me, I personally can relate this to the situation of having guns. Without guns, people cannot protect themselves in war or in soldier training. With guns, bad things also happen. So, There is a PRICE to PAY for all things.

In this case, the Good from Democracy OUTWEIGHS the BAD.

I think this can serve as a rebuttal to the film “Truth about Democracy” which portrayed the ugly side of democracy altho it also reminded people the benefits of democracy.

Above are merely my personal interpretations of his message and the film.
Feel free to comment.

Singaporean leaders, civil servants , enforcement officers, intelligence officers, judges and everyone else who were participant in this torture of this man for 20 years ought to be brought to trial.

OR

they should be detained without trial without charges for 20 years… they will only learn, repent and reform and be humane if they are given what they dish out…

To #19 noisemaker,
Dr Lim did not admit to the the charge of being communist. If he recanted, then he would not have had to spend that additional 10 years in detention.

I guess for a lot of young Singaporeans, watching this would be like finding out your “loving” father was in fact a bastard.

Unfortunately, I think a lot of them may feel that this was a necessary evil.

The history of Singapore will not be complete if we keep harping on our material accomplishments and ignore our willingness to trade our souls for that economic restructuring share.

Thanks Martyn See.

God Bless You Dr.Lim. Everything happened for a reason and yours will not be forgotten. While you will be blessed with peace from here on, the opposite will be upon the wicked.

Can the owner of this site send the video to this site? They are requesting forsharing of thoughts.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/13/asian-readers-tell-us-what-obama-could-do-for-your-country/

21) Human Being on November 16th, 2009 2.50 pm

“… everyone else who were participant in this torture of this man for 20 years ought to be brought to trial.”

aiyio maciam like ww2 trials at the Hague. kekeke
Of course this case is not like that wan lah.

No one has ever apologised for the detention of the so-called “Marxist conspirators”. The govt’s case was never proved. Evidence was filmsy. It was all Lee Kuan Yew talking.

It chills the bone to think that one single man can destroy the lives, reputations and families of so many people, just because he controls the police and the media.

When the opposition comes into power, whenever this may be, we as a nation should open up these cases again and right the wrongs done to people like Vincent Cheng, Teo Soh Lung, Dr Lim and most of all, Mr Chia Thye Poh.

As a nation, we must right the wrongs of the past committed by a power-crazt madman who sees himself as some kind of wannabe-god.

When the opposition comes into power, many if not most of these detainees may no longer be with us but nonetheless, we should clear their names and at the same time, register the crimes in our history books committed against them by Lee Kuan Yew.

23) Mic O Mic on November 16th, 2009 3.16 pm I guess for a lot of young Singaporeans, watching this would be like finding out your “loving” father was in fact a bastard.

-=-=-=

no worries mate, most singaporeans do not read political blogs. I am not lying.
internet hits ranking organizations have proven this, altho the trend is rising readership. But will new citizens buck the trend?

@19 – Gabriel
“Dr Lim did not admit to the the charge of being communist. If he recanted, then he would not have had to spend that additional 10 years in detention.”
I admired Dr. Lim for i can see he is a very intelligent person and have the charisma to bring about change.
By not admitting to a charge does not mean he is not a communist.
Please don’t support someone that potentially can destroy Singapore. It is precisely he is that good that he has got to be stopped.
China such a great country get bogged down by communism for years. They killed innocent youths at Tiananmen Square who were trying to advocate democracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989.
If Dr. Lim is not a communist, what is he?
Let him speak now, it is not too late, what is his ideology.
Even Osama bin Laden is intelligent and charismatic. He is suffering much more greatly for his cause. Do we need to support him also?
Let us all be mature citizens and be responsible to our country.
If satan is to come to this world, I can assure you, he will be the most appealing individual in the whole wide world, for he is more intelligent and more charismatic then anyone you have ever know.
Your irrational mind will destroy every damn democracy we are fighting for. You will force everyone to clamor for the PAP.

Obama can say so much but he also have problem to seek truth in his own land. 911 building 7 demolition is mind boggling yet truth is swept under the carpet.

There are a few comments here who justify PAP’s right to imprison Dr Lim or communists. I’m sorry that I totally disagree with you. A man’s political views should not give the State a reason to imprison him and destroy his life as much as someone’s religious views should not be held against him/her.

Let the people decide in a General Election. By his actions, LKY has shown time and time again that he’s a dictator who cannot tolerate alternative views. Bright intelligent people have had their lives destroyed because of power-mad LYK. Isn’t it telling that LKY has expressed his admiration for Obama for having people with differing views from his (Obama’s) into his cabinet? If LKY ever does that, Singapore will snow.

No right or wrong. All the head of states behaved the same. They all want to make slave out of their citizens. Power corrupts. Thats the way the world works.

Congratulation, you have awaken PAP as they will gladly embrace communism as you so love it and make it their next election platform.
When they win, you have given them the mandate to abolish general election and opposition parties must then close shop and we truly have only one party.
This will ensure they will rule Singapore forever and ever.
If you advocate the abolishment of ISD, fine, I am on your side. A trial must be given to every detainee, that is always fine for me.
If you embrace communism, I will fight you till the end of the day.
If Dr. Lim denounce communism and take the stand of democracy, I will be the first to vote for him.

PAP looked more communist than ever!
They used ISD to arrest all the communists 50 yrs ago.
Now, they rub shoulders with communists, and going into business ventures together.
Power really corrupts a man…

So was Operation Coldstore a lie ?
Same with the Marxist conspirators ?

So has LKY been lying to us all these years ?

Hi noisemaker

I am going to be very straight with you. PAP is the one who embraced Communism (with distortion to their advantage) and has been practising the distorted form of Communism which is leading this country downhill. As MM once said, “A Communisit leader’s coat may look the same as the common man’s on the outside, but the inside of the leader’s coat is lined with fur.” This, my friend, is what the PAP has embraced, it is 10 times uncomparably worse than Communism. As if this is not enough, these hypocrites incriminate opposition with Communism and punish them.

Communism’s origin is intended for good with the even distribution of wealth but due to men’s greed and evil desires, Communism is made to look evil. Of course Capitalists have to fight the war with Communists as Capitalism stems from the desire to gain more. However Capitalism has its merits. Competition in Capitalism brings out the best. This can even be applied to political parties.

This is why I have a problem with PAP’s practice. It has neither the good of Communism nor the good of Capitalism for the people. If Spore practices total Capitalism, why are there monopolies by the state in almost all sectors of trade, the biggest being housing? Why does the PAP not believe in 2-party or multi-party governing? Why are our media ‘used’ for nation-building (propaganda), not news? These are all classic features of Communism, my friend.

Actually the pap govt. is a bunch of kiasu people. Whenever there is a spark of opposition trying to grow into a fire, they will use every means to put it out. If they are such smart asses what is there to be afraid of? Let a credible opposition grow and debate it in parliament like the House of Commons. Show the people you are real smart and not asses or a bunch of cowards.

[...] Shared S’pore’s 2nd longest-held political prisoner speaks. [...]

Hello, hello…

Where is kopitiamApek today?

Yes, there is certainly something very wrong with this city.

Unfortunately, very little can be done about it with 66% liking it so much.

I salute Dr Lim!

The PAP are not only kiasu, they’re incredible, indesicive with no direction of their ideas, They are very good going around the globe shopping for policy which suit them but not for the people. Build better Housing for the people in the early Singapore, build a forest garden clean & beautiful. Reclaimation of land. This is all from David Marshal ideas. They’re very good in copycat.

@No wonder we are going downhill-
It is not the doctrine of communism that is fundamentally wrong or not wrong.
Democracy guarantees Singaporean the choice to vote for our government. Communism like in China, ensure single party rule.
Once when communist come into power in order to ensure that their doctrine works, they need to have absolute power.
Would you willingly gives up your home and assets to the government?
Do you want those who work less harder than you to earn just as much as you?
China is giving up the doctrine of communism but they retain the absolute rule.
I am a supporter of opposition but you don’t count me in to support communism. The first thing I hear people embracing communism, i am changing to supporting PAP. Many people will be like me, guarantee to go and support PAP if Dr. Lee wants to continue to pursue communism inside Singapore.
Who is Dr. Lee? Frankly the moment I hear he is communist, I shivers because I know communism is bad for our community.
If you allow Osama Bin Laden and his brand of politics to survive in Singapore soon we will soon have the Teleban type of government in Singapore. Frankly there is nothing wrong with Teleban, they only want us to be muslim. Force us to be muslim and be good people.
But I don’t agree, I cannot prove that they are wrong too. It is too argumentative and subjective. They force you to be muslim is to them forcing you to be good people in their sense. What the hack is wrong with that? They don’t want you to party and drink liquor and womanise, what is wrong with that? Nothing, nothing at all, I just don’t want it that is all.

Hi noisemaker

You said, “Democracy guarantees Singaporean the choice to vote for our government. Communism like in China, ensure single party rule.”

This is the bit that has the biggest problem in Spore. Democracy is not practised to its true meanning, it is also distorted deomcracy. A lot of Sporeans do not get the chance to vote, a lot of opposition do not get the chance to be heard correctly, a lot of things are going on behind closed doors. How does it guarantee Sporean the choice to vote? This is the type of Communism that is guaranteeing single party rule in Spore.

Unless you live in a freehold property in Spore, what assets of Singaporeans do not belong to the state? Unless you are a Minister in Spore, everything you work for goes to the state. So, isn’t Spore practising ONE side of Communism? The other side of Communism which is sharing out the wealth is conveniently forgotten. I prefer Capitalism myself but I think if Spore practices Communism to the full, maybe it is not so bad like now because at least people can feel some returns. Why do you think rich Sporeans migrate or have 2nd or 3rd property in democratic countries?

@No wonder we are going downhill-
First and foremost, I make it clear to you. I am a supporter of opposition in Singapore. I don’t like absolute power hog by one party at all. I like the freedom of Internet where my little voice can be heard even by a small group of people.
I speak up for opposition and I hope Singapore will change from the grip of PAP.
However I also know that communism failed and I sincerely hope Dr. Lim gives it up not for PAP but for the people of Singapore. He need not prove a thing to us at all. He can make Singapore better and he will have many people supporting him if he stands in politics. But he must give up communism because it didn’t work for both Russia and China. North Korea is also not prospering from it.
Dr. Lim refusal to disown communism is not hurting PAP. It is hurting us Singaporean.
When PAP released him, they know what he will say, please don’t be naive thinking PAP is really that stupid and unable to foresee this simple thing. If the people really support Dr. Lim, the PAP will say that communism is something they should look into and use it for their own gain and officially adopt it. They can really do it, they have more than two third majority in parliament and they can change the constitution. Far fetch you may say, but why give them the chance. They are going that way I know since long time ago. We are helping them to do it faster if we start embracing Dr. Lim because communism is what Dr. Lim wants to stand for. So many years of suffering he refused to give up do you think anyone of us can change him.
We must not walk into the trap of the PAP. They will use this as an excuse and say that communism has made China prosper and so they want the same thing for Singapore. That will ensure absolute rule by the PAP. They are sick of having to think whether the next five years their extremely high salary still be around or not. So once and for all they will do it. That guaranteed their salary stays high for good. Of course it is the new form of communism that defer from Dr. Lee but nonetheless China is having it. Communism with capitalism, the Singapore communism.

wow! whoever engineered all these cruel conspiracy to torture all these innocents must be punish to death. this is pure cruelty to human being in any part of the world, wonder if obama will have anything to say about this.

I salute his tenacity..and none of the men and women (past, present and future) from the PAP…not a single one…can ever measured up to just this one person!

@noiseMaker

You said “By not admitting to a charge does not mean he is not a communist.” “If Dr. Lim is not a communist, what is he?”
Just for illustration sake , if someone influential said you are an idiot , you do not admit it yourself , according to your flawed logic “ By not admitting that you are an idiot does not mean you are not an idiot ” and “If you are not an idiot , what are you ?”
Whether you are an idiot or not is pretty subjective to how the people around you view your actions. Certainly there is no strictly defined class of behavior belonging to a communist, but who is to make the final call to say if one is a communist, socialist or just a left leaning democrat? In this case , if Dr Lim said he is not one , surely he is the best person to attest to his belief based on his own interpretation. And if Barisan Socialist can simply be labeled as Communist just because it is left winged , then the ruling party can also as be labeled as Fascist by the same yardstick.
Whether his detention under the ISA is justifiable or not should be based on the “potential harm” he might have brought to the country ,without regards to his political ideology . Leading right up to his capture, has he been shown to be out to destroy Singapore ? He competed in democratic elections and he was against the proposed Malaysia merger. Were there really good reasons to detain him and for so long ?
It is pretty lowdown to demonize someone by indiscriminatingly linking him to Osama bin Laden and Satan for the sake of being intelligent and charismatic. I would say the wise old oracle of Singapore is certainty very intelligent and charismatic.

We experience the worst form of socialism and the worst form of capitalism in Singapore.

“When you are young you are idealistic. When you’re old you are realistic. Now this is the kind of rubbish that is used by those who have lost their ideals or sold their ideals for self-interests.

Each should not wither one ideals or convictions. If anything, it should only consolidate and make it more resolute. if age has anything to do with it, it is only by way of expression and application of these ideals and convictions having the benefit of a youth experiences .and a life without convictions, without idealism is a mere meaningless existence.”

Very meaningful words indeed.

@nocityforoldmen -
Do you think that I am not against his detention? Did u actually read what I said?
I truly sympathized with Dr. Lee detention and I don’t think any detainee should be held without trial. I cried because I don’t think Dr. Lee should have received that kind of treatment and I admire him for his steadfastness.
Even if he is a true believer of communism, it is alright however he now must not embrace it and come to term with reality. If he is not a communist but and willing to give democracy a try I will surely vote for him.
It is what he is that bother me and not what he is not. If he truly isn’t a communist and declare as one, I am very happy person. However if he keep his mouth shut and never declare his stand and say things about his detention simply to win our sympathy then we must be worried.
It is not what you say or the PAP says that count. He must come forward to tell all of us.
Don’t make use of our opposing PAP sentiment and come on back with his communism and win people over whether they are idiot like me or a smart person like you.
The use of Osama and Satan is not to link Dr. Lee with them, you are simply being malicious. It is only to give an illustration of how confusion ideology can become.

Re noiseMaker

Whats wrong with Communism? All Nordic country epouse a large part of communism calling themselves socialist.

Nordic socialist and even more fanatic than Chinese communisty party.

As long as communist is willing to participate in democratic process, whats wrong with them?

Even he believe 99.99% of Karl Marx (except the violent revolution part), I don see any problem.

I am not sure whether Barisan Sosialis is a communist party but I am suspicious of PAP say about them. From Wikipedia (that’s the only source of information I have) on Mr. Lim Chin Siong who was one of the BS founder: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lim_Chin_Siong, it doesn’t seem to be a communist party or rather on Mr. Lim himself. Whatever it is, history is written by victor and not looser.

Dr. Lim, I respect you and I give honor to you, you are a hero!

I do not think communism has failed. I think eventually LKY’s system will fail.

If Karl Marx really talk crap, how come so many Nordic countries follows his idea and become one of the most advance nation in the world.

Nordic country real tax to its rich citizen may reach 80% and transfer it to the poor. Isn’t that a kind of paradise?

If that is communism I am a communist as well.

We all have been fooled by LKY.

@noiseMaker on November 16th, 2009 10.17 pm

I have no doubt that you are against his detention . I had read what you had wrote, and i am saying that your logic is flawed . Read my above comments again to know why. Let him be judged by his actions instead of being fed into believing that he is someone which he already said he is not .

You said at post 29.
“I admired Dr. Lim for i can see he is a very intelligent person and have the charisma to bring about change.”
Followed by “Even Osama bin Laden is intelligent and charismatic. ”
Again by “If satan is to come to this world, I can assure you, he will be the most appealing individual in the whole wide world, for he is more intelligent and more charismatic then anyone you have ever know.”

At post 45 , i said “It is pretty lowdown to demonize someone by indiscriminatingly linking him to Osama bin Laden and Satan for the sake of being intelligent and charismatic.”

At post 49 , you told me this now “The use of Osama and Satan is not to link Dr. Lee with them, you are simply being malicious.”

Can you please enlighten me how you manage how not to link osama and satan with Dr.Lee by highlighting that they are all intelligent and charismatic . Why were Osama and Satan even introduced into your comments in first place then ????

It is not late for Singaporeans to wake up to acknowledge the bravery and sacrifices of these people. Treat them as heros. Talk about them amongst your family and friends. Also spread words of the cruelty of such detention. Above all fight for the abolition of the ISA.

Dr. Lim Hock Siew you are a far, far greater man than Lee Kuan Yew.

Whatever admiration we may have for Lee Kuan Yew has come to naught..

Said Zahari’s description of Lee Kuan Yew being a coward is indeed true. Lee Kuan Yew can’t compete fairly man-to-man with people like Chia Thye Poh and Dr. Lim Hock Siew.

Even today Lee Kuan Yew’s PAP needs the GRC system, practises gerrymandering, controlling the press and media to keep themselves (himself) in power.

This breed has gone extinct.
Nowadays, people are loyal to employer as long as the employer pay and pay them salaries that is not a peanut.

Soul bot by money. dirt cheap.

#52, the INC deals with communist country China.
Lots of cooperation.
So, by this i suppose communist country like China is a friend?

@nocityforoldmen – As I had said Mr. Lim is someone very intelligent and charismatic and he has the making of a leader. It is especially such type of people whom we hold respect we have to especially weary because they can make things happen. If it is me, you need not worry I am just an idiot, nobody need to worry a damn thing about me.

I use illustration of Osama Bin Laden to explain that people with intelligent and charisma but with a different ideology cannot be taken lightly. This is a reference of respect to such people and not meant to belittle them.

Satan of course is very intelligent and charismatic, just because he is evil does not mean he is not smart. He is the supreme leader of evil land and can oppose god, how can he be so ordinary. An illustration to say that it does not mean an intelligent and charismatic person is definitely a good man, we got to ask ourselves who is he.

There is no where that I said Dr. Lim is a evil man. His ideology is where I am most concern about. If we give communism a forum, we must also give telebanism a forum, maybe we might even have to give satanism a forum.

As for Osama Bin Laden, he is not evil even, in fact if you are a radical Muslim, he is a man of Allah. He is a good man. But I cannot accept him because I cannot accept him. Too many argument if we are to go into details. His method is too extreme, he kills too many innocent people. To him they are infidel and deserve to die. To him you and I are infidel also deserve to die. To his gang, he is a hero and super person, even nice, friendly and caring.

If I give this man a forum, he will be able to talk many of us to become terrorist and bomb and kill our own people, mind you we will do it most willingly. He is definitely that good. Am I giving him disrespect and trying to be sarcastic? No I am not. This is a very serious problem, he is a real person, not friction.
Bring him to the cul de sac, one on one, I am not afraid of him. Give him air time to speak to the people, I think better not, too dangerous. My guts feeling tell me if I love my freedom I better protect it. If he is free to participate in our country election, maybe he can win a GRC. Eventually he takes over the whole country and then we will be talabanized. I must give up my faith, or kill myself else no way out. I think i will kill myself cause I won’t give up my faith. Before this can happen, it is either he die or i die.

In the hope of preventing disaster, I hope these people disown their ideology and then we can live harmoniously. However it is not that easy.

to #29) noisemaker

“I certainly have no regret for my involvement and participation in politics although I had to pay a heavy price for it. I am still a socialist who believes in democracy for the people and social justice for the working classes.” Dr Lim Hock Siew
- as reported in Malaysiakini 11 Jul 2007.

In a time of gluttony of the capitalist, by the capitalist, for the capitalist. Maybe the sword of socialism has to be unsealth to bring back the balance, so that the true invisible hand of the free market economy can again function and thrive in a healthy way. How ironic.

What we are seeing today is NOT a healthy, thriving free market economy in action. It is a very loped sided power grab by the business elite, and by extention, into the political (right wing) elite, that if left unchecked, will eventually lead to enslavement of the common man and this condition will erupt into chaos and bring much suffering in a connected world economic system.

True communism is long dead with the fall of the Berlin wall, what you have in Russia and China is only a semblance of government, exercising power over their respective countries. The so called communist party conveniently inherited the country and the people and embrace the capitalist mentra. They are not communist and certaintly not an iota of socialism, that we can rightly identify with.

You want socialism, see western Europe! Which our MSM and some segment of Americans are having fun denigrading.

We trust that the Chinese “communist” know too well the excesses of the capiltalist system. Their great acrobatic kungfu can hopefully help tame the discontent in their own family.

In time to come, then maybe we can entertain the reality of a bipolar world order (or disorder). i digress.

“However we must not adore his ideology. Communism is not for Singapore. We will be worst than what terrible stage we are in now. Communism will rob us of our right to vote and there is no general election every five years.”

Why is people here wasting time entertaining noiseMaker, a PAP troll or member of PAP IB ? What can you expect from someone who highly likely on PAP payload ?

Coud we not identify who this noisemaker is ?

To keep his dynasty from going downhill after his death, believe me, LKY will apologise to all political detainees INDIRECTLY during his last breathe.

For a man who betrayed his fellow countrymen to work for the Japanese, i dont see why he would not ’sell himself’ out again.

If not for the Internet, and if not for TOC, how are we to know about this great man? Will ST report this? I have never heard about this man until now.

A forumer (supposedly a local U grad) in the ST forum, “Get best into local varsities”
threatened people with ISD for disrespecting a former Minister. They are open about it, using ISD for matters including dis-respect for former PAP Minister and ‘respect’ is as defined by them. The whole system is a shamble!

@Utopia – what crap r u talking? I m on PAP payload. U then on PAP payload. U want to promote communism for PAP so that they can stay on power forever.
U love communism then give all your money to the state. Work as a road sweeper, you can get the same pay as a manager. Everybody takes the same pay so good. Since my pay is so low, I really don’t mind getting the same pay as you.
PAP loves to be communist like China. Don’t need to vote. Forever they can get their extremely high pay not having to worry every five years coming to face election.
Stop pretending Utopia, you are then the PAP troll.

@noiseMaker on November 16th, 2009 11.29 pm:

You are not thinking straight; just commenting based on your own prejudice towards communism. If you even watch the video once thoroughly, it does describe Dr Lim Hock Siew as a staunch socialist right at the end. You either disbelieved or missed that part altogether.

Still, if you think about his whole talk and the story of his life, your point about him promoting communism does not stick. He was detained without trial and charged to be a communist. His entire life story is that throughout his detention, no matter how he was tortured or bribed, he never once took the position of admitting that he is a communist. In fact, it is precisely he refused to bow to pressure (to take easy way out) that led to his long detention.

In short, he was detained under ISA as a communist suspect, a charge which he were to deny through his entire life. There was no evidence against him that conclusively proved he was a communist, and the long detention did not make him change his stand. To stand by his own principles no matter what, that is what he calls integrity.

As such, your accusation that Dr Lim is spreading communism is simply an extension of the charges thrown to him long ago, and which have so far not been proven. Considering he spent a large portion of his life without freedom just to maintain that he is not a communist, i would be very inclined to think that his assertion is very much stronger than your mere accusation.

Simply put, if your main point is that Dr Lim is a communist, i would say that his actions so far provide very strong evidence that he is not. His freedom could have been obtained much earlier if he had just issued a statement to show some repentance and save someone’s face. (essentially, that will put him in a ‘guilty as charged’ position as a communist detained under Operation Coldstore).

@ObviousMan – my first comment come upon seeing the first post to this article.1) Oh Holy – who saying what’s wrong with being a communist. Obviously there is connotation that he is a communist. 6) as long as… another case of what’s wrong with being a communist.
Is Dr. Lim a communist? I am asking is he or is he not. If he is not. Good. If he is then I don’t support communism.
I suppose communism is a higher form of socialism. The two is very similar. Why don’t Dr. Lim explains?
In the video he did not argue about being wrongly accuse of being a communist but instead highlight on the torture.
Why hide, if he is not a communist just explain what form of socialist is he?
It is public interest to know.
Who is prejudice against communism? I am and many people too.
China is a communist, they don’t have election, it is always the same party ruling the country. They kill young people trying to ask for democracy with live bullets when these young people is unarmed at the Tiananmen Square. I seen it before I don’t like it.
I am a staunch believer of democracy. I think PAP has too much power and we need to vote in opposition to counter the PAP.
This Dr. Lim seems to be as capable as LKY, got potential of bringing up a party. However if he is a communist then let him say so himself. If he is not, I am so happy. Please don’t come and build a shield around him. Let the man speaks for himself. There is nothing wrong for him to come to the people to say it loud and clear that he is not a communist. Explain his brand of socialism and if it is really not harmful, why not share it with us. Let us be the judge whether it is good or not.
If his ideology is not harmful to Singapore why not bring him on and lets vote for him.

19) noiseMaker on November 16th, 2009 2.45 pm
29) noiseMaker on November 16th, 2009 4.28 pm
33) noiseMaker on November 16th, 2009 5.44 pm
41) noiseMaker on November 16th, 2009 7.17 pm
43) noiseMaker on November 16th, 2009 8.20 pm
49) noiseMaker on November 16th, 2009 10.17 pm
58) noiseMaker on November 16th, 2009 11.29 pm
63) noiseMaker on November 17th, 2009 1.06 am
66) noiseMaker on November 17th, 2009 2.38 am
68) noiseMaker on November 17th, 2009 3.36 am

Hello my friend

I think that is more than enough from you.
And btw please refrain from using the surname of Dr Lim Hock Siew interchangeably between Dr Lim and Dr Lee.
Thank you and take care!

This is the epitome of irony. The guy who helped start the PAP was jailed by them, even without a trial. This is disgusting. I don’t believe I am from a country which evidently has respect for any form of civil liberties what so ever. I think Dr Lim should start his own politcal party. I would definately be voting for a political party which actually knows what democracy means, has an independant media and does not go around editing people’s letters and above all respect’s legal and political rights of all their citizens.

Noismaker:

“… If satan is to come to this world, I can assure you, he will be the most appealing individual in the whole wide world, for he is more intelligent and more charismatic then anyone you have ever know…”

That can be a universal truth.

But it would be preferable if you do not bring your personal religious beliefs into your views to strengthen your arguments.

Singapore is the only country in the world where you will find people justifying these kinds of barbarity as important sacrifices that had to be made for the growth and development of the country.

Imprisoning a man, whose ideas you dont share and who doesnot pose a threat to national security, for 20 years and brutalising him is not the kind of sacrifice any country has to make to achieve growth and development.

this is a man who was working together with LKY in the very same political party. if he is a communist in 1963, he must have been a communist in 1959 and before that while he was with PAP and LKY. should that not make LKY a collaborator of communists?

the charges that these guys are communists simply go against all logic. not only are there barbaric singaporeans who justify locking up a person without trial and using violence to torture him for 20 years, they also insist all these illogical charges cant be untrue.

these barbaric singaporeans are traitors of humanity….

it is precisely because of these kinds of barbarians that we have their counterparts living in out midst
- physically abusing and torturing maids and foreign workers
- physically abusing and torturing recruits
- physically and sexually abusing children of theirs and others
- obstructing spouses or parents from assessing their own kids
- taking away jobs from employees out of bias and driving them to desperation
- asking the desperate to go to another agency and not waste their time
- denying the poor the very entitlements they were bequethed with through the endowments of their ancestors

face this fact… cruelty is the central phenomenon in some singaporeans lives… they are either on the perpertrator end or the receiving end…

so telll this loudly to every Singapore who wants to justify cruelty.. You are a social criminal, I dont wanna hear you!!! enough is enough!!!

Hi noise maker,

a quick one, i don’t think you are a PAP stooge. From your post (a brief glance), i gather that you are very against communism and think that PAP loves communism and fear that they will secure the throne for eternity with communism. This fear is valid and i agree with you just on this one.

i think people are not happy with your posting simply because of the way you question Dr Lim’s being. That’s all.

good day to you.

Oh dear.

This is what happens when you push a man too far; for a while he will contemplate the smallness of his courage; then at some point, he will just say, I have already gone past the point of no return; I have already invested X, Y and Z; I have nothing else to lose and they can no longer do anything that they have not already done to me, my family and pet goldfish etc

I saw this twice. It is perhaps the most strongest piece ever published in TOC as I couldnt sleep very well the whole night.

The moral of the story: never disrespect your enemy; you may not agree with his pov, but that doesnt mean you have a right to rob him of his dignity, self respect. and right as a human being

The moment you disrespect him to the point where you believe you can “cross the line,” you better be careful (PLS BE VERY CAREFUL) as you have earned yourself a VERY formidable enemy that will do more than urinate in your grave; he will come after you: as the serious men of this world will tell you: though you may have won all the battles; unbeknown to you; you have already lost the war the moment you disrespected him and thought that you could do what you like.

Gme over

SD (Internet Liaison officer of the brotherhood)

Sun Tze say keep your friends close and your enemies closer!

We hope more patriots like Dr Lim would come forward and tell their side of history for the young and totally ignorant Singaporeans before it is too late..

Thank you to the 66.6% who voted for PAP! I love you!!!! You have ensured that we will have a free and democratic country for many years to come!!!!

I can tell you all based on my experience in as a liaison officer in virtually 900 dominions in the virtual realm spanning over 428 of our colonies and over 500 protectorates; deep spirited trust is the hardest thing to cultivate; sometimes it takes years, it is like cultivating pearls; it take time and patience but crucially intelligence of the highest quality; as to break an intellectual is not like breaking in a mustang – it takes intelligence; but it is worth its weight in gold; as without trust, you can achieve very little.Nothing infact.

No one will listen to you; you can do nothing. People will just pretend to nod their heads and that is no good. No bloody good.

SD

Hi guys. As someone in the top has mentioned already. It is only the PAPoutcast that have labels him as a communist. The charge was never, i repeat, never proved. The charge is leveled as a convenient tool to retain him because of political differences and because perhaps he wants to use China as a hinterland but the english speaking Old Lee feels using China is bad because he dislike it. He wants to use Malaysia as a hinterland and thus wants to merge Sg with M’sia. And this charge is true, cos he really did merge sg with m’sia! Talk abt democracy lol.

To label a person as a communist in a democracy is serious libel. To retain him is undemocracy.

Anyway back to China, how many of u knows Chinese (China) History? The CCP consists of 8 democracy parties unlike taiwan one party that exists for many years. That is why there r lots of power struggles and no one can succeed to the top so easily. Let refer to Sg…which is more democratic then?

China is founded as a Republic and have many representations. Dont be fooled by lies of one party. Go read history!

“Young PAP ’school’ takes a leaf from Communist youth”

- 4 March 2009, Straits Times.

“FRESH from a study trip to China last month, the youth wing of the People’s Action Party is taking a leaf from the Communist Youth League in political education and leadership development.”

And from the Young PAP website:

“YP bonding trip to Chendu, China”:

“It was also an educational and fruitful journey during which we interacted with our Chinese counterparts from the China Youth League (‘CYL’) 中国共青团.”

Ode to my Chengdu Delegates

Our friendship is new, like the morning dew
The fog restricts our vision; we still cannot define each other in completion
The rain feels cold and the wetness uncomfortable
Yet your smile makes the journey more than bearable

Like the legacy of Du Fu’s thatched hut,
may the door to your friendship never by shut
Like the brotherhood of Liu Bei, Guan Yu and Zhang Fei,
from you memories may I never fade
By the Treasures unearthed at JinSha Basin,
we are always prepared to overlook each other’s sins
As we stand by all the oil and chili in our steamboat
Let us salute and say, “YP got Hope”!!!

~Christopher Koh, YP Punggol Central

Should the YP offer its “repentence” and “contrition”?

what the hell you talking about what colonies protectorates rubbish!

to 55) JW,
Agree with you absolutely.
It is befitting that Dr. Lim Hock Siew and LKY be remembered………………………….
……………………………………………………………………….BUT for different reasons.

to 71) SD,
“never disrespect your enemy; you may not agree with his pov, but that does not mean you have a right to rob him of his dignity, self respect and right as a human being”……………………….could not have said it better !

to 72) reader,
“Sun Tze say keep your friends close and your enemies closer ! ”
LKY was doing just that.
He kept the enemies ( Japanese ) during WW2 closer……. by working for them.
He kept his perceived political opponents closer………. in detention cells.

The British outlawed the Communist Party and declared an emergency in Malaya (which included Singapore). The ISA was a legistration which the colonial master used in its political suppression of Communist Party of Malaya. The Emergency was lfted when the British felt that the threat of the CP was not serious enough to justified that. However, the ruling parties in Singapore and Malaysia chose to keep the ISA for political expediency in crippling their political opponents. The communist branding was used as a justification because it was outlawed before. The issue here is one of democracy, whether we have the rights to participate in the political development of the country not one of ideologies. A government that uses such draconian method to suppress and wipe out its political opponents is a farcist one. One of the reason why PAP was thrown out the Socialist International in the mid 70s. A democratic system is one that allow the people to vote and decide fairly. Throwing the whole leadership of an opposition party (in this case Barisan Socialis) was definitely foul play. The ISA must be abolish!

TOC, it will be swell to organize a reading group to meet & discuss the books written by Dr Lim Hock Siew, Poh Soo Kai etc…I can also think of others, who in the later generation such as Tay Kheng Soon, have mused about a different modernity for Singapore. I think it is time for us, and up to us in this current generation to re-engage them, tap their spirit and continue their work in dreaming, building a viable, modern Singapore – with integrity and autonomy.

It’s a new dawn awakening.

boys and girls.

My mama did not raise a fool. What do I mean by this? It means if you want to see the communist threat in its rightful scale and perspective; then you CANNOT deny it’s historical context and setting, if you do that, its like going to the Sistine chapel and saying the frescoe is just a bible comic. Do you understand?

I am only a young man, so all this things that once happened to the good doctor is as alien to me as when my granny talks about having to eat millet laced with rat meat during the Japanese occupation.

But I have read up extensively on the period; what cannot be denied is the communist threat was once upon a time a CLEAR and PRESENT danger; not only to Sg but to the rest of the free world – did you know that when the Russians launched sputnik; most Americans started building nuclear shelters in their backyard en masse? – my point is we cannot forget this: the red menace was very REAL and it dominated much the geo-political and national security considerations.

This should always be borne in mind. Dont say I am supporting the PAP. You all know I am not. But we are all sportsmen; we owe it ourselves to be fair and to see things in the right scale; we should not forget the historical context and setting that Dr Lim for some inexplicable reason did not see fit to mention.

audi alteram partem

SD

If we are all sportman, then why didnt the Communist take over Hong Kong and Macao first?

In those days, there are strikes and racial riot due to ineffective british rules and sg as a colonial is bankrupting the empire.

When the PAP take over, strikes are banned, UNions are to be state controlled. So many controls…dont u think we r a communist already?

Noisemaker:

Dr Lim’s communist leanings are not proven. Whatever your proclivities and sympathies, continuing to repeat an unproven fact is damaging to Dr Lim, who has suffered sufficiently. Do desist. Open up another separate anti-commie thread, lol.

Marxist!

Let me put it this another way: if communism was not perceived as a clear & present danger to the free world; none of us would even be having this conversation today; we will still be using slow mail or homing pigeons; as the internet was nothing more than a doomsday communication tool conceived by the pentagon to survive a full scale communist nuclear attack – why would anyone in their right frame of mind do that if it wasnt a perceived threat?

A wise man does not close one eye just to convince his brain; he is right.

SD

@singaporedaddy,

You r projecting your present frame of understanding into the past. History has not been written, and is not closed on the Cold War in this region. It can only serve us better, in this generation to understand from their own perspectives i.e. Dr Lim, Zahari & co. what was going on then during those tumultuous times. I, for one, am not ready to accept ‘history’ as you unreflexively put it as simplistically a ‘Free World’ vs ‘Communism’ because it is precisely this simplicity that opens up society to abuses of justice.

During the era of the cold war, communist parties were legal in some countries around the world including USA. In Singapore LKY exploited this threat to kill off his ideological foes within the PAP. These people may have socialist leaning but communist they are not. LKY managed to hide the ultra capitalist within him so
well that Singaporeans were fooled for 50 years. Many Singaporeans are still under the hypnotic spell of LKY. Time to wake up.
After ridding the PAP of the leftish socialist elements, LKY moved against many of the old guards like Dr. Toh Chin Chye who are less capitalist than himself. They were prematurely retired so that LKY can take the full credit to himself. Now LKY is moving against the Western Liberals in Singapore. People like Dr. Chee
was targetted.
So u can see that it is inherent in LKY’s nature to dominate and dominate alone. It is not ideology. Only one person can become a great emperor and he must be the one. Anyone who stands in his way must be destroyed. Simple as that. The man is extremely selfish and cold hearted.

@singaporedaddy,
If you’re talking about the ideology then what you said is total bs. Communism stems from the word commune or community, it is for the greater good. It is always meant to be for the people and not just for a select few. However Authotharian leadership abused the system and the people suffered for it. By the way, the soviets were innovators. Don’t restrict yourself to what happened in the past. If not we’ll end up like the majority of americans. Suffering now, because they embraced capitalism and rejected whatever that was socialist.

Re

Unlike Vietnam, Malaya Communist are never able to pose a credible military thread to anybody, not even in guerilla warfare, and never as a conventional arm forces.

A predominantly Islam religion in Malaya deprive communist of its support base. Morover, the social division is neither acute in Malaya until the poor take up arms.

The insurgency has already been defeated militarily in 1960.

And communist who participate in democratic process is not unlike the socialist in Europe.

LKY blown up communist thread to take power. Now he still shamlessly brag around how he defeated communist …. bla bla

Very very angry after watching it.

For almost 20 years being tortured by a fucking good life and high pay government of 50 years.

Feel like showing my middle finger infront of LKY face.

But we must follow the system..

VOTE HIM OUT is the only way.

Wait up Singaporean, VOTE HIM OUT…. to show support to all people under tortured by him.

Come on people. Dr Lim was someone, like all political insurgents of that era who does not comply with the white code of the PAP – and therefore it was necessary to banish him into obscurity. That was the rightful thing to do so that Singapore could make progress to what it is today; as envisioned by the great visionary that we have all come to know. Some would say it so sweetly, “The ends justify the means”.

Dr Lim, you are a generation too late. You could have fought history while it was being made. You certainly cannot fight history, now that it has been written.

All Hail PAP! All Hail the Capitalists!
Down with Communism! Down with political insurgency!
PAP, PAP, PAP – you’re the BEST.

Can we now ask whether that Ukrainian in our army, mentioned by the MM, is a communist or not? Are there going to be future soldiers in our armed forces coming from the fatherland of Communism? Are the communists now more trustworthy than the communists of fifty years ago? What makes them so different that we can trust them to defend all that we have, and all things dear to us?

I think we had better think about this more carefully.

Good afternoon walau, dd et al,

“You r projecting your present frame of understanding into the past.” You know what? You could be 100% right; as when the good doctor was jailed – I did not even exist then; short of being an illicit itch somewhere in my papa’s trousers.

But like I said, I invested a lot of time reading up on that period (I am not saying no one here did, I just get that sinking feeling that may be the case) and I would strongly recommend that if some of you genuinely want to understand something; then it doesn’t pay to just run on the account of one video; that’s a bit like deciding to marry a girl just after the first date; my point is you really need to do some homework and try to bring a sense of historical scale and perspective into understanding why communism was considered such a threat during that point in time.

The danger as I see it is; if we start short cutting instead of crafting an accurate sense of scale and perspective to make sense of this discussion; then what invariably happens is many of us may just say “they r always like that lah,” very much in the way we look derisively at full frontal tobacco advertisements from some bygone age – and wax lyrical, they didnt know better, when infact, it is actually us who know nuts abt the geo-political threats sorrounding that tumultuous period.

Can anyone here tell me how would that kind of shallow approach contribute to a better understanding? I give you the facts; you decide for yourself.

SD (Internet Liaison officer of the brotherhood)

@noisemake

You r indeed making alot of noise :-) U r not Dr Lim, I m not Dr Lim so why r u purporting to speak on his behalf, suggesting compensation, apology from e gahmen etc? I feel there is more at stake here – its something bigger than the individual narrative of Dr Lim the ‘maligned patriot’, ‘false communist’ or whatever u want to call him; its about a spirit and idealism of an entire generation; its about the conviction and courage to imagine possibilities apart from a hegemonic vision of the reigning regime – its the spirit of independence(of thinking) that Singaporeans of later generation has forsaken for the promise of material prosperity.

@SD

Eloquent poetry :-) ! I can only suggest that you shift your ’scale and perspective of history’ rather than affix it uncritically from an American Cold War angle.

That said, I m not suggesting that the ‘Communists’ r angels but to say absolutely that its a war against Evil is propogandistic which makes for the worst kind of history/history-making ever.

Its one thing to read and another to think.

Give the man his due respect as his resolves has not been broken after more than 20 years of mental torture !
No difference from the Nazis who operated concentration camps in Dachau in Munich and Auschwitz in Krakow, Poland !

singaporedaddy:

The question is whose perspectives are you reading from. The so-called communist threats were a part of nationalism movements across Asia. Because they were the most organised armed resistant against the Japanese invasion and upon the surrender of the Japanese imperialists then seeked to drive out the colonial masters which came to colonise asia for some 400 years. Ideologies had galvanised a generation in their pursuit of idealism. Without the support of the 400 million Chinese people, the CCP would not be able to drive out the Japanese imperialist and then successfully win the fight against the KMT which had the support of US then. And the 400 million Chinese people were not stupid.

But in the case of the struggle in singapore, the communists were just one group, the fajar generation was another extra ordinary group of young people – english educated and came mainly from privileged familes with more options in life and they had exercised their options to pursuit of their ideal society. You should buy the book and read the chapter of our history from their perspectives.

Hi Different Perspectives,

From the brief script of your sharing; you’re definitely a heavy weight and you certainly know your stuff; so with your kind permission; I am going to concede my initial position – you could well be right; its conceivable my knowledge may even be so woefully incomplete to suggest I better stop here, otherwise I may run the risk of making a complete fool of myself.

“You should buy the book and read the chapter of our history from their perspectives.” Fair enough. That is a good idea. I will buy many copies and even circulated it around our cycling club and even have a book club discussion after all of us have chewed on it.

Many thanks and pls do feel free to make the allowances for my shortcomings.

Best regards

SD

when you see the large number of people who turn up to greet and welcome PAP MPs including LKY, it only shows that majority of singaporeans dont know any of this information on TOC. the lens through which they see PAP is the lens that is shaded by the news, information, opinions provided by Medicorp and ST.

majority of Singaporean are not reviled by PAP because they know nothing or little of PAP beyond all the good stuff they are told. when you ask them if they know all the atrocities of PAP, they look at you in utter disbelief. i am asking each one of you reading this to go out and tell the story of Dr Lim to a totally new stranger you get to meet and who is not of your own background in education, income. nobody will believe you

if you do show them this video, they will justify what PAP did by saying that PAP had to do to curb communism, to protect Singapore etc etc… majority of singaporeans dislike PAP policies but they believe in the dominance of PAP, the rule of PAP and the governance of PAP.

when you look at the top 30% of Singaporeans, primarily those who work within the government, they will never give up their support for PAP.

as much as PAP may claim they won the sembawang GRC due to malay voters, which is bullshit because each election PAP performs the worst in Eunos GRC because of malay voters.

the majority of chinese voters in singapore as LKY says do not really wish for democracy. they want autocracy, with PAP dominating the parliament. if you look at the earlier periods you see lots of Chinese politicians opposing LKY. but they were from the earlier periods of Singapore where Singaporeans saw themselves above the divisions of race. the first prime minister of singapore who was selected by a chinese majority electorate was actually a jew

but since the moment singapore became divided by race vote in 1959, it has remained as such. if you see the opposition to PAP since then, you wont find 80% of opposition members being chinese…. after the last heros of 1963, till today we have not seen a single rich or influential chinese walking out of his comfort zone to fight for his country or people other than Francis Seow… we need more chinese to step forward like Dr.Lim to sacrifice for their country and their people

Tsk, tsk, tsk… PAP is so ruthless!!!!!!

Oi media dept of NUS, its time you do a study or publicise your paper (if study has already been done) on how people form their opinions of PAP and opposition parties. What does the audience base on? Are opinions based on ‘States Times’ & ‘MediaCorpse alone’? Do people not question anything fed to them? Do they do their own reserach like checking or verifying with other sources? If you are truly academic, you do not do it for PAP sake, you do it to find out what role the media has.

singaporedaddy,

I am not as well read as ‘Different Perspectives’ and not as wise as you claim or portray yourself to be, but I do think about how many things started or why it did, and the different circumstances.

In fact the different perspectives still apply today. If Dr Lim is punished for being a Communist by the authorities (this is assuming he admited), it still does not necesarily mean that Communism is bad and evil, period. A Capitalist or rich elite will no doubt classify Communism as such but not necessarily the masses, and I suspect you are the former arguing from against the masses here, like Noisemaker.

Noisemaker declares that he is afraid of Comunism because he does not want his assets confiscated. See what I mean? If you do not have assets and never will under the current system, will you be afraid?

Let the people decide, no need to lock anybody up. If Capitalism is what we prefer, we certainly would reflect it on our vote, why the need to lock up a Communist leader? There is absolutely no ground for locking up anybody on political reason even if there is a fair trial to prove a person’s ideology.

According to Wikipedia,

“Communist regimes have historically been authoritarian, repressive, and coercive governments concerned primarily with preserving their own power.”

I don’t see how different our govt is from the above description.

I agree with a reader here that some day their names may be cleared if one day Opposition wins.

Even though this may not happen tomorrow, one day, Opposition should win based on Change is the only constant law of the universe. It may take 100 years, it may take 1000 years, but one day, it may happen.

With all the hidden darkness of 1 man, all singaporeans should know by now that they are being fooled by LKY all these years, it may be abit too late to realised how dangerous and cunning a person can be when he is power craze, its up to the people to decide what they want to do now before they are being sold.

There are many people as smart if not smarter than LKY.

But there is one thing LKY is a super grand master champion….. not scared of people TU LAN!

Dr. Lim ought to give more speeches now,so that more Singaporeans,especially the younger ones,know the other side of the coin too in the political story of Singapore.
We often see LKY in the media limelight,oftentimes with other heads of states,dishing out sage advice as if he is a demigod,and getting praised as an outstanding statesman.Those who recently did,like the senior George Bush and Henry Kissinger,should watch this clip too,in order to get a more balanced picture of the man.
Nearly 2 decades in jail without trial.That’s worse than Aung Sang Suu Kyi’s fate.
Of course,LKY will say that Singapore is what it is today because he put away people like Dr. Lim.He will never apologise.
Thanks to the power of the internet,we get to be aquainted with the sleazy underbelly of Singaporean politics.Because we can know both sides of the story,the propaganda of the ruling class will lose its grip on ruled.Now,we don’t just blindly subscribe to one side of the story.

Just like to pay my tribute here to the respectable people who upheld and uphold their principles despite been put into all kind of unsavoury and unconscionable treatments.

You all deserve the respects and history will ensure that You will be remembered as such.

patriot

Hi:

i forgot to say that history will register VILLAINS as well

and

their sins will not be forgotten.

patriot

The injustice done on DR. Lim Hock Siew for 19 years of his prime life is a sin to a man who did no wrong but has a different ideology of thoughts different from the establishment. Dr. Lim was betrayed by LKY. Many others who were imprisoned under Operation Coldstore were and are innocent.

ISA is a draconian self-set law to silence the opposition and freedom of speech of people. Jailed without trial and indefinitely. What justice !! Corrupt power is their own ‘justice’ to do what they like on people the PAP deemed marxist or security threat to PAP’s survival.

We must all petition for ISA to be abolished !!!

Dr LimHS should speak up more on the circuit to propagandise his cause and let S’poreans know about political detention and forced imprisonment with no redress.

Dr LimHS, I sympathise with your predicament and you can claim your lost dignity back by announcing and give talks to create awareness on the injustice of ISA detention.

I wish Dr Lim well and may he live to see that justice is done.

The day for justice is getting closer.

Those who unjustly harm others will themselves be harmed by their own deeds.

Karma or Retribution operates silently, slowly but surely. It can go down to as far as 7 generations. So don’t play play with other people’s lives for your own selfish benefits.

May justice be done on earth as it is in heaven.

#114,
“Karma”

what if people do not believe in Karma?
some atheists do not believe in Karma.
They did not meet one for decades.

Dr Lim speech, the ongoing debate here on communist idealogy, the assessement on immigrant’s loyalty and the latest comment by our MM just got me thinking.
We locked away a group of people in 1963 because we considered them communist and thus threat to society. We banned Chinese schools because they were considered breeding ground for communism . We did this again in 1982 by labelling a church group Marxist and made a prominent lawyer flee the country.

Today we are inviting millions of mainland Chinese who are basically communist and are not required to renounce communism to become PR or citizens and yet the two batch of ISD prisoners were required to do so to be released. There is this incessant call to promote Mandarin and to do business with China, which I believe is still a communism country. How ironic

I declare that ideology of communism is dead.
After deliberation on the subject, I am confident that it is dead. It cannot be revived and I am happy to welcome Dr. Lim back.
In order for communism to survive in Singapore it must have backing from some big brother and China is no longer practicing the kind of communism it used to.
The people of China these days are more and more fashionable, they don’t look like soldier in blue. Capitalism and such you name it they have it, not much different from Singapore.
The different is that we have general election but they do not. Lets hope that every five years we still have our elections, that is all I can hope for.

Sadly, i am convinced that singaporeans will not let opposition win because of FACTs that we al have to admit.

1. singaporeans bochap about their political responsibility.
2. singaporeans scared to voice up. who’s talking at hong lim?
3. singaporeans are self preservatory to a serious extent.
4. singaporeans accept all things based on historical evidence.

Its inevitable that with time, new citizens will become the majority, in my view, especially when the birth rate has been so low for so long and possibly into the far future and especially when citizens migrate or work overseas not intending to return in the near term.

I feel that singaporeans have given up hope to change this country.
Education level so what?
Travelled to places like indonesia and malaysia and thailand so what?
When you study, wherever you do that, you are still a singaporean.
When you travel, you are still a sngaporean.

You are who u are.

I expect no change for at least another 15 years.

noiseMaker @117

quote: “I declare that ideology of communism is dead.”

- Which part of it is dead? Like I said, the half-dead communism practised by PAP is uncomparably worse.

- You STILL insist that Dr Lim is a communist by saying that you welcome him back because communism is dead. Are you one of those ISD man? What convinces you so badly? Why don’t you support your stand?

quote: “we have general election….Lets hope that every five years we still have our elections, that is all I can hope for”

- Are you really that simple minded or do you choose to still turn a blind ear to all the GRCs and walkovers, the unfair coverage by the media of opposition and the defamation suits.

@No wonder we are going downhill –
Thats the law. LOL.
If you’re not happy go challenge the law.*shrugged*
What are you going to do to the half dead communist?
Go and get photoshop and cross out their face, thats the best u can do.
Since he was incarcerated as a communist, I welcome him back from his imprisonment. That is very nice of me isn’t it.
If you think he is not a communist go and sue the government for wrongful imprisonment. Stop bothering me.
I no longer have a stand, someone from onlinecitizen has canned my post so where do I stand.
Anyway please please I want to behave myself, I don’t want to be sued who I am just a little guy down the road.

@noiseMaker

I could argue that Jesus and the first disciples were communists in practice; Ghandi observed this to his English accusers. I could argue that the US does have a long rapsheet of media manipulation, political emasculation and general perversion of justice that might create an Osama out of a “little guy down the road” civil engineer. I could also argue that people will support EVEN SATAN because EVEN GOD is unjust.

And just between you and me, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from Heaven,(Luke10:18)” and “even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, (2 Cor 11:14)” Which local party symbol prominently features the haloed lightning bolt?

But of course, I ask rhetorically. Like “Satan”, I already know the ugly truth about “God.”

@Saul , 121 -
Yes yes I know your name is Saul and not Paul.
Adios.

Well, politics isn’t easy.

Stay out if you don’t have the guts.

Anyway, socialism (communism) isn’t for me. Glad LKY won.

Even China spits on communism now and adopted a market economy.

The rest is history.

singaporeans were given 50 long years to form a strong opposition.
Look at what they have achieved.
Why complain now ?

singaporeans should look at yourselves in the mirror and reflect.

There will be no change. Forget it!

Chomp @123 said “Socialism isn’t for me”.

May your business never dwindle, the economy never enter recession and your health never fail (or your childrens’). Ah, but I think you are one of those with iron rice bowl, even pension guaranteed in the millions, thats why you can say “Socialism isn’t for me”. Not very clever is it, if you are either Mr Minister or just Mr Tan down the road?

Ok, say socialism isn’t for me either. Do we have a thriving Capitalist system? Where are the competition for political power, media & businesses?

Actually for those igorant people out there, China embraced capitalism 30 years ago already.

But we r heading towards an increasing authoritism government. Now who is more communist now? Sg or China?

Of cos is Sg lol..we even have compulsory NS and many more.

20/11/09

Sad case but that time the Communist Bloc-World threats were very real and we saw one country after another fell into the hands of the communists especially after the fall of Saigon and the Domino Theory was a very real threat to Asia and the local communists were all out to topple these Asian governments and worse, China was supporting them.

Today, Communist Bloc-World is dead and gone and China and its allies ie Vietnam and others are no longer Capitalists hidding in Communist clothing and look at the Eastern Europe Communists all disappeared and majority are members of NATO, can anyone imagine a total collapse of the Communist Bloc-World one day. So, let us move forward and now the threat is Islamic exteremisim and Islamic militants and daily we see their suicide bombers killing hundreds in the public……sad, and our Modern Singapore is not safe from these Islamic extremists and militants and recently we saw our own local Islamic extremist and militant managed to escaped to Johor but was arrested and now detained in Malaysia under their Internal Security Act-ISA.

Now, coming to Internal Security Act-ISA, our Singapore government has not abused ISA unlike Malaysia ie use on opposition members (they only used ISA on Islamic extermists and militants so far) unless the Singapore oppositions worked these Islamic extermists and militants, I am all for ISA to be used on them-I am sure they are not stupid (they prefer to be Running Dogs for foreigner NGOs and taking monies from them).Also, ISA must be used on Drugs Syndicates and their masterminds in Singapore who use Singapore to launder their monies (I am sure there are other laws )

Regards
Andrew Chuah

What’s wrong with Communists?
Does this mea China full of communist as it is a communist country officially?
People do business with Chinese people all the time.
How bad is that?

Were any of them PROVEN beyond reasonable doubt that they were actually communists? Singapore is based on rule of law is it not?

So, my question is were they proven given they have spent much of their lives in a cell ?

What crimes did they committed?

I suppose there is Transparency on these thingies?

#127,
” they are not stupid (they prefer to be Running Dogs for foreigner NGOs and taking monies from them).”

Are you able to PROVE what you said or are you assuming?
Where is the evidence to substantiate your allegations?

Is LKY the longest employed and renumerated politician in the world EVER?
How about the oldest ?
anyone knows?

What Dr. Lim Hock Siew said must be true or else he sure kena sued already.
Got to respect him for his integrity.