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Kelvin Teo
In this article the writer speaks to Reverend Doctor Yap Kim Hao, pastoral advisor to the Free Community Church (FCC), on his views about homosexuality and Christianity.
The AWARE saga earlier this year saw the Christian community torn apart by differing interpretations of homosexuality. While the most vocal of advocates were adamant that homosexuality in itself is a sin against the Christian faith, other moderates and liberals plead for a more inclusive understanding of Christianity.
Reverend Doctor Yap Kim Hao represents the liberal point of view. He earned his Master of Divinity and Doctor of theology degrees from the Boston University School of Theology. Rev Dr Yap was consecrated the 1st Asian Bishop of the Methodist Church in Singapore and Malaysia in 1968 and was made the Visiting Professor of World Christianity at Perkins School of Theology, Southern Methodist University.
The FCC is not recognized by the National Council of Churches in Singapore because of its controversial stance towards homosexuality. It does not ostracise against gays, and is probably the only church in Singapore that does not treat homosexuality as a sin. Furthermore, the reputation of the FCC as a gay group has rendered the church unable to register as a legitimate organization. To circumvent regulations, the church has registered itself as a company, and worship sessions are considered private gatherings [1].
Kelvin: You are currently serving as Pastoral Advisor to the Free Community Church, a role you regard as the calling of God, since your retirement from full-time Christian ministry. Your mission is to declare Christ’s inclusive love (the Agape spirit) to those who have been ostracized and neglected for far too long by the Church. Care to share with us what specific events occurred in your life that led you to live up to your calling?
YKH: Early in my ministry a leading lawyer asked me the question about the teaching of the Church on the issue of homosexuality. This issue was not discussed publicly at that time. The Church did not bother to state its position. The gays and lesbians were in their closets and most people assumed it to be a closed subject since the Bible has declared that same-sex relationship is wrong. In my naiveté, I looked up the five or six biblical passages that relate to it which concluded that homosexuality is a sin.
Later, I re-read, studied and interpreted the passages which were not taught even in my seminary. Reputable scholars of the Bible with un conventional views gave their own interpretations which seem to be credible and convincing to me.
The story of Sodom now linguistically linked to sodomy was an issue of inhospitality to visiting strangers. It is never an account about same-sex relations. It was as defined in Ezekial 16:47-50 as pride, gluttony, and prosperous ease and refusal to aid the poor and needy. Sodom is a symbol of God’s judgment rather than same-sex relations.
The word homosexuality as we understand it today is a modern word and has no equivalent in the original Hebrew and Greek languages of the Bible. It was first coined in 1869 by a Swiss doctor to refer to aesthetic attraction, romantic love and sexual desire exclusively between members of the same sex. It was injected into the Bible as late as 1946 in the Revised Standard Version by the translators and was subsequently dropped in 1971. With such evidence how can I regard homosexuality a sin?
Moving on, when a medical graduate from a wealthy family had come out to his mother, he requested me to counsel her about acceptance of her homosexual son. Again I naively asked the question whether with all his money he has consulted a good psychiatrist to cure his mental disorder. He turned to me with his quizzical look and I was embarrassed for I had asked a stupid question.
I then learnt that already in 1973 the American Psychiatric Association has removed homosexuality from its list of personality disorders. This was followed by other Western professional associations of psychology, counseling, mental health, pediatrics, school teachers, social workers and other related groups.
They also raised concerns about the bad effects of reparative therapy which seeks to change sexual orientation. In August 2009, the American Psychological Association (150,000 members) Governing Council declared that “No solid evidence exists that such change is likely, says the resolution, adopted by a 125-4 vote.
The APA said some research suggests that efforts to produce change could be harmful, inducing depression and suicidal tendencies. It is the most comprehensive repudiation of “reparative therapy” which is pursued by a small group of religiously conservative therapists who maintain gays can change their sexual orientation. Can I ignore the declarations and warnings of these proficient professional associations?
Kelvin: In a letter published to the Straits Times on 18 July 2003, you described an interesting account of how you used to believe homosexual acts are always wrong. After listening to gay and lesbian students and friends, however, you have had to rethink your position and reread the Scriptures. Do you mind sharing with us the kind of thought processes you went through when you re-read the scriptures that finally led to your re-evaluation of your position (referring to the scriptures if you wish)?
YKH: In a more careful study of the Bible I realised that the words of the Bible were not dictated or handed down by God. Faithful and inspired men and a few women received what they believed to be revelations which were not literal words but interpretations of their understanding of what God had revealed. They were first transmitted orally. They subsequently wrote them down and the words of the Bible were copied and translated into different languages from the original Hebrew and Greek.
The Bible contains interpreted words of the writers of the different books of the Bible. There were other religious books which were not able to gain acceptance by the religious authorities then to form the sacred text of the Bible. The Bible is historically related and culturally bound. We are compelled to study and interpret its relevance to our contemporary context. The process continues.
Kelvin: What kind of internal struggles do you think a homosexual Christian will experience?
YKH: Christian LGBT faced far too long the rejection, marginalisation, stigmatisation, ostracisation and oppression in society. They were forced to stay in lonely isolation in their closets. They were compelled to act as if they are straights when they appear in public. A heavy burden of guilt was placed on their shoulders and they cry out in their silence and solitude. They did not choose to be a homosexual.
On the contrary, they want to change their sexual orientation and they tried prayer, exorcism, reparative therapy but of no avail. In their spiritual and emotional struggles there are those who were able to overcome and believe that God loves them and affirm homosexuality is a gift of God that they accept with grace and able to come out to the world with pride.
Society is beginning to be enlightened and becoming to be aware that the LGBT person can believe and sing “Jesus loves me this I know for the Bible tells me so.” The tide of their liberation is rising everywhere for those who have eyes to see. God has heard their cries and will deliver them.
Kelvin: What was the effect of the AWARE saga on the Christian community specifically?
YKH: The AWARE saga was a revealing experience in our society. It shows the danger of Christian fundamentalism. It had surfaced the schemes of the Christian Religious Right.
A government leader in a private conversation with me commented that one can do that in America where the majority are Christian oriented although it is not good to splinter the Christian community. But in a multi-religious society in Singapore it is a totally dangerous development.
No one religion should impose its beliefs and values and displace those from other religions. We cannot afford to tear apart the delicate fabric of social cohesion. We cannot have the luxury to engage in religious conflict between faith communities. We need to respect differences in our diversity, engage in dialogue and work together for the common good and ensure a just and peaceful future.
Kelvin: What are the possible approaches of engaging the Christian community in a way that will lead to the acceptance of brothers and sisters-in-Christ who are gays and lesbians?
YKH: Most of the Christian churches have recently been politically correct to declare that they welcome homosexuals and love them. It seems to be that there is an unwritten condition that the homosexuals should not tell that they are gay and if they do then they must recognize that homosexuality is a sin and that they should not engage in same-sex acts and become celibate.
Gays and lesbians know that too well and will continue to stay in the larger closet of the congregation and forced to wear masks and live a lie that they are just like them.
The Christian community must re-study the Scriptures and reflect upon the interpretation of the particular passages relating to same-sex acts and come to their own decision whether the Church’s official teaching that homosexuality is a sin or not.
Most people shun and avoid meeting the gays and lesbians. They are people of sacred worth created by God like you and me. We are called to love even our enemies and they are not your enemies. He or she is your own son and daughter or your relative and they were born into your family and they did not choose to be there. Own them and love them, they are your kith and kin. The gay person is a human being created by the same God who created you and me and each one of us different. We belong together to God the Creator of us all. We are one human family.
Kelvin: What are the possible approaches of engaging the Christian community in a way that will lead to the acceptance of brothers and sisters-in-Christ who are gays and lesbians?
YKH: Most of the Christian churches have recently been politically correct to declare that they welcome homosexuals and love them. It seems to be that there is an unwritten condition that the homosexuals should not tell that they are gay and if they do then they must recognize that homosexuality is a sin and that they should not engage in same-sex acts and become celibate.
Gays and lesbians know that too well and will continue to stay in the larger closet of the congregation and forced to wear masks and live a lie that they are just like them.
The Christian community must re-study the Scriptures and reflect upon the interpretation of the particular passages relating to same-sex acts and come to their own decision whether the Church’s official teaching that homosexuality is a sin or not.
Most people shun and avoid meeting the gays and lesbians. They are people of sacred worth created by God like you and me. We are called to love even our enemies and they are not your enemies. He or she is your own son and daughter or your relative and they were born into your family and they did not choose to be there. Own them and love them, they are your kith and kin. The gay person is a human being created by the same God who created you and me and each one of us different. We belong together to God the Creator of us all. We are one human family.
Kelvin: Care to share with us the high points and low points of your service as Pastoral Advisor to the Free Community Church?
YKH: I regard it as a privilege and a calling of God to stand alongside with those who are despised and rejected. Even though I am being misunderstood widely I find this a defining moment in my ministry. Knowing that I do not agree with the teaching of the Church on this particular issue I believe that I have to be obedient to God in serving the LGBT community.
When I see the liberating effects of those who made the hard decision and dare to appear in the Free Community Church (FCC) at a great risk, I thank God that they have come home and received God’s welcome. They are free at last from guilt and shame and walk with their heads held high. They start with leaving their masks at the door of FCC and then throwing their masks away as they relate to others in the world.
There are those in FCC who are still in doubt and wrestling with the issue of their sexual orientation. They have to unload the false teaching of the Church and it is not easy. It was cruel of the Christian community to cause them so much suffering and pain. They need to regain their self-esteem and worship the God who is loving.
The follow-up service is to help those in FCC who have accepted their sexual orientation to live the responsible life of a Christian LGBT. The moral quality of life must be different from those who are not guided by religious faith. They will need to grow in spirituality and improve the quality of Christian living.
Kelvin: If there is a message that you can pass on to (i) homosexual Christian and (ii) other Christians who have yet to accept their gay and lesbian brothers and sisters-in-Christ for who they are, what would it be?
YKH: Do not remain in your closet and exist in lonely existence. There is help and hope available around you. Seek out others around you who can support you in your struggle. Keep your faith in Christ who will set you free.
Know the damage done by the Church to our brothers and sisters in Christ. Many have abandoned the Church because they have not been ministered. We have cast them out and they are rebellious and have given up on Christian faith. Reach out to them.as a witness for Christ who associated with the dispossessed. Extend your hand in genuine friendship and concern and embrace them with your love and affection.
—–
[1] Source: Associated Press, “Singapore’s gay church exists despite ban”, 30 July 2005. Republished in http://www.freecomchurch.org/06-300705.htm
Kelvin Teo also writes at http://kelvinteowrites.wordpress.com
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154) Jay on November 18th, 2009 1.48 pm
The post from UZEK is full of hatred. If this person is Christian then I do know who is Christian anymore.
Jay, i would rather they dont get moderated.
Its clearly a true reflection on their so called ‘justification’.
And for the record, they are what called the Christian Right movement, or broadly lumped together with Christian Conservatives.
Dear Kezu
Wow…
You seem to be suggesting that because I used the word ‘Heresy’, I automatically agree with burnings and religious wars. I do not, so please do not assume this. I do not even attempt to justify these from a Christian perspective. The Church and Christians in general have no authority from Jesus to kill people. They never have, and they were wrong to do so. The worst thing a church can do is to show such a person the door until such a time as they repent.
However, my point still stands. You cannot tamper with the foundations of Christianity and still call yourself a Christian, and I know that the Pope and the Roman Catholic Church would certainly agree with that.
You say:
“Are you so infallible to judge so harshly, and to carry out that judgement as well?”
I am not infallible, nor do I even claim to be, and I hope you know by what I have just written I am not standing by with a burning torch in my hand. Dr Yap’s views are to be countered with words. He is most certainly in the wrong on this, but if you are not a Christian, I would not expect you to get that. Yes, we Christians believe that God has spoken on this issue – and firmly, so it is more than just our personal judgement here. If you don’t believe that, fine. That’s your problem. However, please don’t expect us to sit back while this kind of nonsense invades the Church.
Kezu is quite right on 149) Kezu.
I also wish to apologise for my harsh comment. And although I am a Christian, I have no high opinion of many Singaporean Chrisitian.
Many mass atrocities are commited by Chrisitian. All tyrants are mostly straight polygamist and (some bisexual)., non of them fully homosexual
Jesus is accomodative to vamp and sinners. In New Testament, the one receiving the most disproval are false prophets (Yap may be a candidate) and hypocrites.
I do not support gay is no-sin doctrine, neither did I like those who persecute homosexual. I think church should love gays but must also make it clear that it is definitely something that displease Lord.
156) Des on November 18th, 2009 3.01 pm Dear Kezu
Wow…
You seem to be suggesting that because I used the word ‘Heresy’, I automatically agree with burnings and religious wars. I do not, so please do not assume this. I do not even attempt to justify these from a Christian perspective. The Church and Christians in general have no authority from Jesus to kill people. They never have, and they were wrong to do so. The worst thing a church can do is to show such a person the door until such a time as they repent.
However, my point still stands. You cannot tamper with the foundations of Christianity and still call yourself a Christian, and I know that the Pope and the Roman Catholic Church would certainly agree with that.
Ah, that the thing you see.
When you see the word heresy and coupled with the apology from Pope on persecution. You thinking burning stakes and wars.
Then again if you read my post in totality, you should have known that’s not my point at all.
The point i am trying to make on the so called unshakeble foundation of Your brand of Christianity is this.
What you called HERESY today, may not to be so in future as we discover more and more about the world and our past civilization.
Dont take my word for it.
It is so in the case of Galileo (remember flat as pancake Earth?), and If such were the not the case then Protestant should not be part of Christianity as well.
156) Des on November 18th, 2009 3.01 pm
I am not infallible, nor do I even claim to be, and I hope you know by what I have just written I am not standing by with a burning torch in my hand. Dr Yap’s views are to be countered with words. He is most certainly in the wrong on this, but if you are not a Christian, I would not expect you to get that. Yes, we Christians believe that God has spoken on this issue – and firmly, so it is more than just our personal judgement here. If you don’t believe that, fine. That’s your problem. However, please don’t expect us to sit back while this kind of nonsense invades the Church.
I see now what’s the problem is.
You cannot accept the fact that Rev Dr Yap has such belief and can still be a Christian. At best, a Herectic.
And one can only come to this conclusion when one share the same particular view with you? If one does not share that revelation with you and your kind, its nothing more than nonsense thats invading the Church?
To me this is clear as day and night.
You cannot or refused to acknowledge that there are more Liberal or Moderate Christians in The Church.
And everything or anyone that’s not with you is either nonsense or heresy.
You are fine in attacking Dr Rev Yap’s christianity because your brand of christianity rooted its unshaken foundation in a literal translated inerrrant Bible, and his is not?
Finally when you use the term ‘We, Christian’ tell me does it include Rev Dr Yap in that context??
Re 154) Kezu
I almost support Kezu fully. Example Singapore, Christian here have given us more injury than gay.
Most of our Ministers and Judges are Christian. Look at the defamation suit our judges awarded to LKY, they are here to show most Christian are hypocrites.
They are the one who have poison people’s mind.
Kezu is not wrong of puritans. Those so call puritans be it Talibans, Al Qaeda, or hypocrite moralist like Mao and Stalin, they are really the most evil.
Gays never have so much blood in their hand.
And what about the scantily dress female ex clerics of City harvest turned Singer.
Wake up my Christian brothers, we are really lack of a role model and martyr. We are full of hypocrite and bullshit clerics.
Uzek
Ah either you are playing parody game as sslim or had a change of mindset immediately?
But regardless, nicely done though on the reverse anagram on my nick.
Dear Kezu,
Yes – I do see your point. I’m afraid that it took me a long time to write my initial thoughts out and so I missed what you had originally written.
The argument from progression cuts both ways, though. As we progress through history, who knows what is round the corner? It is presumptuous to suggest that all the churches will abandon faithful confession of the Creeds and the realities that they speak of, and current scholarship concerning same-sex relationships is very much towards the ‘conservative’ view.
Same-sex relationships were common in the Greco-Roman world where the Christian message first went out. It will not surprise me if it happens again and gay relationships become normalised in society in general. It doesn’t scare me. it shouldn’t scare any Christian. I am also not for criminalising gay sex, by the way, especially as the government seem to think that straights can indulge in sexual acts that are more commonly associated with gay men. Why one and not the other is a good question, is it not?
Galileo did not believe in a flat earth, and neither did the scholars of the day. If you are concerned that the church ‘got it wrong’, well, Thomas Aquinas was correct to warn the Church hundreds of years before Galileo that they should not pin their reading of scripture to any particular cosmology – and he proved to be right in this case. As Galileo himself once said ‘The Bible tells us how to go to Heaven, and not how the Heavens go’.
Des
However, my point still stands. You cannot tamper with the foundations of Christianity and still call yourself a Christian, and I know that the Pope and the Roman Catholic Church would certainly agree with that.
Now that we are in more agreeable mood. Lets clarify further on issue that would tamper the very foundations of Christianity?
To quote the word of Carolyn.
“Jesus made it very clear in Matthew that there were only two that mattered. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind, and Love your neighbour as you love yourself. that is it.. Not so hard I would have thought. No room for intolerance, rejection and exclusion . Christianity at its purest. Love for all of God’s created people.”
I would think violating those 2 fundamental rule would have shaken that foundation to its core. Would it not?
Jesus is God himself if you do not know.
God himself have spoken that he adhor homosexuality.
LEVITICUS 18:22: “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.”
LEVITICUS 20:13: “If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death.. Their blood shall be upon them.”
If you believe in Jesus, you all also know that many will claim to know Jesus but many will be rejected.
What is God’s love?
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Prostitutues, Tax collectors are not put to the death. For though they have sinned, they have incurred the wrath of God and the transgression that led to death. Have you asked why homosexuality must be put to the death and why the Blood is on ‘Their Heads’?
Was Jesus not angry when the people uses his father temple as a market? Was he not zealous of God?
Jesus is zealous of God and his commandents! But he is not here to condemn, he comes to warn us and also to save us. The time of judgement is another day.
Oh Stuff It Already.
160) Uzek on November 18th, 2009 4.38 pm Re 154) Kezu
I almost support Kezu fully. Example Singapore, Christian here have given us more injury than gay.
Hahaha i am not sure i want your support, fully or not. But flattery will get you almost everywhere.
Most of our Ministers and Judges are Christian. Look at the defamation suit our judges awarded to LKY, they are here to show most Christian are hypocrites.
They are the one who have poison people’s mind.
Interesting, unfortunately i cant comment on that. I simply do not know which ones of them are Christians and which ones are not.
And you see, judging . . . hmmm.
Kezu is not wrong of puritans. Those so call puritans be it Talibans, Al Qaeda, or hypocrite moralist like Mao and Stalin, they are really the most evil.
Really now?
Gays never have so much blood in their hand.
Of course they do, their own (as victim of hate crimes usually do)
And what about the scantily dress female ex clerics of City harvest turned Singer.
Hey that’s my favourite church, … well architecturally. But be nice.
Wake up my Christian brothers, we are really lack of a role model and martyr. We are full of hypocrite and bullshit clerics.
Ah i think you are doing just fine.
Budamaxx #140,
Only weaklings are attached to their views. And only honest weaklings (weakest of the lot) such as yourself admit to it. I am waaaay too strong for that. (And besides, I can’t change my views even if I wanted to; I’ve enshrined them, remember?)
Scroll the page and imagine me sweeping my holy arm across your monitor. My prayer muscles will illuminate scripture after scripture after scripture. Who needs mere attachment?
162) Des on November 18th, 2009 5.08 pm Dear Kezu,
The argument from progression cuts both ways, though. As we progress through history, who knows what is round the corner? It is presumptuous to suggest that all the churches will abandon faithful confession of the Creeds and the realities that they speak of, and current scholarship concerning same-sex relationships is very much towards the ‘conservative’ view.
Well, that’s the problem you see.
It is presumptuous to assume otherwise either.
But would you rather err in Compassion or err in Persecution?
Sometimes what we think does not matter as much as what we actually do.
Dear Kezu –
I have only just noticed your comment #155 – it must have been posted while I was replying. I am not a quick thinker, and so I ask your patience.
You said:
To quote the word of Carolyn.
“Jesus made it very clear in Matthew that there were only two that mattered. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind, and Love your neighbour as you love yourself. that is it.. Not so hard I would have thought. No room for intolerance, rejection and exclusion . Christianity at its purest. Love for all of God’s created people.”
I would think violating those 2 fundamental rule would have shaken that foundation to its core. Would it not?
My answer is Yes. However, we need to have a definition of ‘love’ in order to confirm whether I have shaken the foundation. The best definition of love from a Christian perspective that I have come across is something like this:
‘unconditional regard for a person that prompts and shapes behaviours in order to help that person to become what God desires’.
I got that from a book called the Jesus Creed, by Scot McKnight, who is an American scholar. The key bit is ‘to help that person become what God desires’. Now as I’ve already said, God has spoken on this issue, and so to ‘love’ someone cannot mean that as a Christian all of ones behaviours are considered by default OK and to be celebrated in the Church. A Christian who has same-sex attractions (please note, I am not here talking about those outside the Church), is to submit to the scriptural admonitions to avoid same-sex sexual behaviour, and live a chaste life, whether one is ultimately ‘healed’ in this life or not. The goal is holiness – Christ-likeness – not ‘Straightness’, though for some that may come to some degree.
That will mean deep love and support within the Christian Community for those who struggle with this issue, and seek to live lives in conformity to Jesus, and I will be the first to acknowledge that we’re not very good at that. Some of it has to do with ‘fear of the Other’, but if Jesus’ disciple John is right, then ‘perfect love casts out fear’, and I hope that Churches of whatever stripe can do a better job. However, it also means confronting those who believe that there is nothing wrong with same-sex sexual behaviour. If those who go on living like this do not inherit eternal life (as we’ve confessed for the past 2000 years), then to say that one should indulge such desires is perhaps the most ‘unloving’ thing a person can say. It’s like telling an alcoholic to ignore the medical consequences and ‘go on, have a drink – you know you enjoy it!’.
And I am concerned that this is precisely what Dr. Yap is advocating. Whether he is not a Christian is not for me to say – as I said before in an earlier post, I am not infallible, and I can’t look into his heart. However, he advises a church which openly allows questioning of key Christian Doctrine (as I pointed out from their Faith Statement – which is what I described as heretical, not Dr. Yap). He may not be a heretic, but he appears to be – as we would say in modern terms – an ‘enabler’. At best he is a very confused Christian.
Finally Kezu – I want to add that I am sorry if I have come across as overly strident. We are all heroes behind our keyboards, and personally I would rather discuss this over a beer or a coffee – and now I have somewhere to go. I look forward to your reply.
Des.
Why, after so many years, hasn’t someone flew/teleported down to give us a newer version of the bible? One that keeps up with the times? Like maybe, one that allows us to eat shrimp and pork? Because bak kua and cereal prawns taste darn good!
Oh and anyway, somewhere in the bible allows me to rape any girl that I like. She’ll then have to marry me and can never divorce me forever, on the account that I have to pay her dad “fifty shekels of silver”. How much would that be in modern times? Like US$50?
The people (like 40 or so of them) who compiled the Bible just had to conveniently die and then take no responsibility of any sort. Not even an afterword or something. Dammit la.
#160, #145, “Oh Holy…. 1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.”
If you look further to 1 John 5:5,6, one would would realise that these commandments are centered upon understanding of the nature and standing of Christ … and it is not the 10 commandments nor the the Jewish laws in Lev used to condemn gays. Otherwise, why need Jesus? The Pharisees were doing a good job in insisiting on the laws to be followed strictly. We seem to have many of their descendents in this discussion today. You might just end up crucifying the innocent person as they did in the bible.
# Arix 105 – “6) In grave irony, FCC isn’t part of the Roman Catholic Church, whose Pope is the direct successor of Saint Peter. Plus, there is no evidence anywhere that Peter condoned homosexuality; in fact, he condemns it in one of his letters not published in the main canon of the Bible”
Yes, I believe FCC is not Catholic as they do not worship the pope.
Pope is Pontifex Maximus, the high priest between god and man, ie god himself. We are to pray to god, through the Pope and Mary, the co-redeemer. Sounds like pagan ancient worship of the sun goddess in Rome. That is why the Pope can apparently forgive sins. I thought only God can?
Jesus did not have any children, and they said Peter was the first Pope about 400 later to claim legitimacy. Anyway, it was Paul who went Rome, not Peter. He did not mention homosexuality, in clear contrast to his clear condemnation against heterosexuality in the idol worship of temple prostitutes. Shoud we then ban sex? if the action by itself is sin.
Perhaps Paul was Gay, he ask people not to get married, was not married himself and he can’t stand women especially those who bitch too much in church and in parliament! Oops, women can’t even vote in those days and must have their faces covered.
Des
I was confronted with a choice, not fundamental one but still an interesting one.
Between replying to your comment or JayF.
To be honest, a rebuttal to the later is nothing that has not been said before.
But to yours i am intrigued.
When you called for the definition of ‘Love’ let me ask a question.
Help us understand what ‘God desires’.
Who can say we truly understand what God’s desire?
The reason Carolyn’s message is so impactful is because it directly speaks from Jesus. Love God and Love thy Neighbour. Not so difficult and Exactly what this world now needed the most.
The thing you see, which i have teeeny problem with your comment is to liken the homosexuality to alcohol addiction. Implying its curable.
Before, I would have agreed wholeheartedly, as i came from very devouted methodist family. To be honest, we have a tradition of blaming the roman catholics (idol worshiper) from where i came from for almost anything.
But in my adult life, i realize this is a very serious side effect from blind faith.
Blind faith, as we do what we are told. Conform even when we feel uncomfortable. There’s simply no room for negotiation. To a point I always thought Roman Catholic is a different religion altogether.
That’s why i applaud Rev Dr Yap and this article.
Reality is Christianity is not a cohesive whole.
Different in more ways than we can count.
But fundamental similarity is still those 2 rules from Jesus.
I would not so hastily call someone heretic when what he is say brings hope.
*sorry might not be coherent, started on the beer bit earlier*
#172) OhMyGoodnessGraciousMe on November 18th, 2009 9.47 pm
Its called divine intervention, not McDelivery. Ahem.
Kezu (#141),
The Galileo Controversy has been referred to so many times it has become somewhat stale. The real historical truth is: The Magisterium/Church/Pope never condemned Galileo’s scientific teachings as heresy, even though he was uncomfortable with it.
In fact, Galileo was permitted to teach his theory publicly for three months under Church-sponsored sessions (and people say that the Church is against science!!), although he was advised repeatedly to state that his theory was just a theory. But no legal punishment was enacted against him based on that.
What was condemned as heresy was Galileo’s assertion that his new scientific doctrine could undermine Divine Revelation and the Authority of the Magisterium in interpreting Scripture.
And even so, his punishment meted by the Church was nothing more than house arrest that Aung San Suu Kyi would find enviable today. A visitor to Galileo’s house wrote in his personal journal that Galileo was probably the best-cared-for prisoner in all of Europe.
Catholic.org has the full article on this.
There were, however, less senior members of the clerical hierarchy who misinterpreted the Pope’s condemnation of heresy. So, John Paul II apologized for these people. In his speech, the Pope did not admit to errors in Scripture; he admitted to errors in the INTERPRETATION of Scripture, which is very different.
The difference between homosexuality and astronomy is that there are verses – and cultures – that explicitly condemn at least MSM (In a patriarchal culture, WSW would be automatically regarded as fornication); whereas the Bible, not intended as a scientific document, does not make any pronouncements on astronomy.
Arix, Arix Arix.
I am glad Galileo did not suffer overmuch in ‘house arrest’
Heaven forbid enough suffering has occurred in this world already, day in and day out.
But then again, the question of literal interpretation of Sin of homosexuality is not that much different than say, when Galileo begged the Christian Church to take the stand of St Augustine of Hippo, not to take the every passage literary.
The rest of MSM and WSW is too cheem for me tonight. Someone else can take on this, i hope.
Cheers
Carolyn (#142),
3) It is sometimes strange that Progressives like yourself and Dr Yap claim to be able to interpret the Bible in its proper context, and yet, expose your grave ignorance of cultural contexts. Yes, Leviticus endorses slavery, but the slavery which it endorses is not the Racial Slavery that began in the Spanish Canary Islands in 1404, and the kind of slavery we think of when we mention the term.
Old-testament slavery is just-title slavery, also called debt slavery or indentured labour. It is when an individual agrees to work for another in order to pay off his or her debt. It is more or less an informal employment contract, except that the scope of work is not defined.
Yet, even though Leviticus endorses such slavery, it places a number of restrictions on what the employer/slave-owner is permitted to do to the slave, which almost makes Leviticus the first book in history to talk about Workers’ Rights. Leviticus does that to curb abuses among slave-owners.
For the issue of Racial Slavery, the first historical condemnation is St Thomas Aquinas during the Crusades. The first formal condemnation by the Church Hierarchy is a Papal Bull issued in 1435 that condemns the “unheard of till [then]” institution of slavery and the slave trade by the Spanish colonialists of the Canary Islands. So whoever made the claim that the Church supported slavery needs to relook their historical documentation.
4) Glorifying God doesn’t simply mean verbally acknowledging His love and grace, but also putting Him in the prime position of your life by following His Law.
5) Well, that sounds harsh, but you cannot just ignore it because you don’t like it.
7) And what does Loving God imply? Perhaps the Protestants here might want to help me out with finding the correct verse, but there is a verse in the Bible that argues that Loving God includes following God’s Law.
Bravo! JayF
Your knockdown argument had me leaking–tears of blood, or milk (whichever miracle you are comfortable with)
Might I venture, your very presence refutes Evolution, the devilcraft of filthy atheists and gays. Let’s have your face in Biology textbooks. It will take up an entire page, leaving some space beneath it for your inspired argument: “Filthy”
In fact, I think your argument is succinct enough to be a pop-up:
Foreword
[BAM!] JayF
[BAM!] FILTHY
Kezu (#172),
It might help you to understand the Church’s position on homosexuality better if you google “Theology of the Body”. I admit, even I had personal issues with the Church’s views of same-sex marriage – and I am a God-fearing Catholic – until I read an excellent book on the Theology of the Body, and read the first part of the lecture series available on the Vatican Website.
It is a little theoretical, but it gives a good explanation. (And no, just because this Theology is a lecture by the Pope, it doesn’t mean it is infallible.)
Arix
You see i never have any issue with your argument.
Be it the stand of Church to Homosexuality.
But this i gotta say on behalf of all Gay men out there.
If the leviticus is to be strictly adhered to, what the heck am I gonna do with the rest of my wardrobe? *prohibition of cloth in 2 different type of treads*
And just for the record, I am NOT going to go to work as Ugly Betty by wearing a Poncho!
Can you?
Arix, being a Roman Catholic, should get his own church to accept, admit and make reparations, seek forgiveness and mercy from those thousands of children (now adults) who were sexually abused by Catholic priests, before he opens his mouth to condemn others and preach from his high horse.
Do that and we may listen to what you say.
So far, the Roman Catholic Church and its Pope have not even apologised for the years, decades, of abhorrent and horrendous sexual abuse by its priests on vulnerable children throughout the entire world – from Europe to South America to the States.
In fact, when the church found out about them, it covered up the entire thing for years. Bishops, Archbishops, priests and even the Pope were complicit in the abuse.
And we have Arix here preaching about morality? About the Bible?
There’s a word to describe people like that. It has 9 letters, starts with “H” and ends with “e”.
DoneFor (#146) and Lobo (#149),
God Necessarily Exists, which is a symbol for the notion that God exists both in reality and imagination, that God both exists and does not exist, and neither as well. “God exists” is the popular theist way of compressing that concept.
Christianity is not a Religion of the Book, not according to orthodox (Orthodox and Catholic) Christian teaching anyway. The idea that Christianity is a Religion of the Book comes from Martin Luther’s doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Christianity is instead a religion centred around the person, and not just the teachings, of Jesus Christ. The New Testament is the record of Christ and his followers, and the Old Testament is regarded from early Christianity as some sort of historical background to Christ.
Rightfully speaking, the Bible is a guide for how to follow Christ, and thus how to follow God.
God is the Principle of Existence, which divides what is existent from what is non-existent. Think of God as a file divider. Is a file divider part of what comes before it, what comes after it, or both or neither?
Slim
Harrro, no biology. You are very salah liao.
For those who’re unaware:
“Moving from one parish to another in Northern California during the 1970s, Father Oliver O’Grady quickly won each congregation’s trust and respect. Unbeknownst to them, O’Grady was a dangerously active pedophile that Church hierarchy, aware of his predilection, had harbored for over 30 years, allowing him to abuse countless children. Juxtaposing an extended, deeply unsettling interview with O’Grady himself with the tragic stories of his victims, filmmaker Amy Berg bravely exposes the deep corruption of the Catholic Church and the troubled mind of the man they sheltered.”
Here’s the documentary of Catholic priests who sexually abused children.
Deliver us from evil
Father O’reilly now lives in a little corner in Ireland, a free man. His daily expenses are believed to be taken care of by the Catholic Church.
God disaprove homosexuality according to Bible. That is beyond doubt.
However, how much responsibilities God delegate to man in dealing with homosexuality is up to debate, since it is an consensual act.
In the Israelite Era, certainly the man are able to intervene harshly on behalf of Lord, but whether is it the same now is questionable.
But that does not mean a mad cleric can go up preaching accomodation for gay as if everyone else is homophobic or intolerance.
I think its best this Yap guy stop his megaphone.
Sorry. I mean “Father O’Grady now lives in Ireland….”
Kezu (#175),
I need to clarify a term. When the Church – at least the Catholic, Orthodox and Lutheran and High Anglican – talk about the “literal” meaning of the Bible, we don’t mean literal as in surface meaning; we mean literal in the sense of what the author in that particular context wished to convey. So following the “literal” meaning of the Bible does not necessarily mean following it word-by-word, because certain policies were designed for certain eras. But again, policies do not equate attitudes.
In that particular case of two threads, there are two possible reasons:-
(1) There is some natural reason for the prohibition; perhaps, in those days, without velcro or zips to hold the pieces of cloth together, they might snap more easily and violate modesty. You know, something like pants splitting.
(2) Wearing more than two colours is associated with the Pagan nations which the Jews were instructed to dissociate, on account of their Paganism. (The irony was that the Jews ended up misinterpreting it as dissociating on account of Race, which is where Judaizers versus St Paul comes in in the New Testament.)
Sheep and Wolves (#176),
To put things in perspective, the “thousands” of children were molested by less than 100 priests out of hundreds of thousands. And these priests were disciplined by the Catholic Church.
And yes, I know that you are using the word “Hypocrite”. But note, I myself have nothing whatsoever to do with the molestation of anybody, so if I state Church teaching, I am not being hypocritical. Plus, Jesus himself condemned the Pharisees for hypocrisy, but he didn’t deny the truth of their teachings.
Hypocrisy and Lying are two different things; make no mistake, lest you fall into Ad Hominem.
“Shocking documentaries about paedophile priests led to probes”
THE controversy raging over the Church’s handling of child sex abuse allegations has its roots in three powerful television documentaries broadcast more than a decade ago.
‘Dear Daughter’, ‘Sex in a Cold Climate’ and ‘States of Fear’ caused huge public outrage in the early 1990s at the scale of cover-ups of child clerical abuse by bishops and religious superiors.
The storm of public indignation at ‘the sins of the Fathers and the Sisters’ perpetrated behind the closed doors of parish houses, monasteries, seminaries and industrial schools led to the announcement in 1995 by the Government of its intention to set up a Commission of Inquiry.
Meanwhile, priest paedophiles such as the notorious Brendan Smyth, Sean Fortune and Ivan Payne became household names through newspaper coverage of their court trials and ensuing imprisonment.
In 2002, Brendan Comiskey resigned as Bishop of Ferns after admitting he had failed to deal adequately with priest rapists such as Fortune.
Arix
You see, i like your arguments.
If they just wear a poncho with stone tied to the edges. That would have solve all the problem with modesty.
But the problem is not all these arent they?
The problem is even the most staunched Christian no longer abide by the rule and mandate handed down by the OT.
Where does that leave us?
Re Sheep and wolves
You news is no news. I have longed disillusion with church institution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sexually_active_popes
The church has been getting sexual gratification from many of the innocent victims more than thousand year before you and I were born.
But that does not mean it do not have outstanding individuals. The world is an interwind between good and evil, that is not easily distinguisable.
We are in a material world ruled by Satan,
The way to Lord Jesus is fraught with pain and danger. There is high chance where anyone might just trip and went down a path of no return.
To all homosexual, I hope God bless you.
If the above video link fails, you can watch Deliver Us From Evil here as well:
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/deliver-us-from-evil/
Uzek
stop focusing on Sheep and Wolves and what about my rebuttal to your comments?
Dont stop.
I am talking about the church authorities, the very top people in the church, like the Pope, who preaches about morality, about forgivenes, about mercy, about LOVE.
Yet, where are all these in the case of rapist priests and paedophile priests?
And I am talking about people like Arix who’re so “concerned” about a group of people but does nothing about the horrendous actions of his own Catholic priests.
Hiding behind “there are some good priests as well” does not cut it. And whether there are good priests or not is not the point.
The point is DON’T BE A HYPOCRITE.
As Jesus said:
Why do you not take the lof out of your own eyes?
Those who are without sin, let them cast the first stone.
Has Arix gone to his own Church and cried “MORALITY!” about the paedophile priests?
Has Arix gone to his Church and cried “SIN” about the rapist priests?
Has Arix made any attempts or written to his Pope about helping the victims?
Has Arix gone to his Church and rally his church mates in condemning these priests?
What has Arix done? He is more interested in condemning homosexuals who live their lives in silence than rapist and paedophile priests who abuse children by the thousands over decades and Arix’s church covering it all up.
Until someone shouts WOLVE!!
S+W
You raised an interesting point.
When too much authority of God is placed in the hand of man, those things do happened.
*Who is watching the watcher?* is the question that’s begging to be asked.
Opps you have asked already.
Then the question is who will answer for the suffering that follows?
Arix says:
“To put things in perspective, the “thousands” of children were molested by less than 100 priests out of hundreds of thousands. And these priests were disciplined by the Catholic Church.”
I think Arix had better go do his research before he spouts lies, which is a sin in his Catholic faith.
Less than 100 priests? Are you sure? God-damned sure?
Disciplined by the Church? As in the church paying for the daily expenses of Father O’Grady, one of the worst rapist priests??
This is totally laughable. Not surprising, coming from a hypocrite.
Re Sheep and wolves
Pope Benedict has to cover those pervert unless he wants to ruin the vatican instituion as a credible vehicle for. reaching out to Christian
The good certainly outweight the bad.
When vatican as outgrows too big for its own good, its not easy to police. In going to church, many of us are not unlike gambling or finding a mate.
Though probability of meeting a pervert there is much less than going to Zouk.
But I think Pope Benedict is a good man, It is a sad really a sad thing. I believe he has no way to control his man. People now are much different from the past.
If there is ever a homosexual church, Buddhist instituion that grows big, I believe such will definitely happen.
Unless the instituion choose to legalise polygamy which is what Islam is doing. In Islam, “Aisha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad”
Even man sin. The world is full of pain.
Did Arix watch the documentary?
Or does Arix find it too unbearable to watch?
Does Arix prefer to condemn others?
It is appalling that Arix would say “children were molested by less than 100 priests out of hundreds of thousands.” So that makes it “not so bad” I guess for a “god-fearing Catholic”, as Arix describes himself.
Yes. This is what I mean by hypocrisy.
What if Arix’s children were one of those “less than 100″ children who were raped? Would Arix dismiss it as, “Oh, my daughter was just one of only 100 raped. So, it’s ok.”
I would use an expletive here if it was permitted.
Arix,
You see there’s where we have a slight problem.
When Galileo ask for non literal interpretation of the bible in regards to cosmology.
Did he get the same treatment?
Why dont we just admit that the OT has too many rules and restriction that has Judaism and Jewish tradition in ITS cultural and geographical context that can no longer be relevant in our time?
Lets focus on the Gospel in NT and words supposedly from Jesus Christ the Lord to steer our lives?
Sigh.
Uzek
Now i am totally ashamed that you and I shared the same nick, reverse or not.
Inciting ‘the phrase’ is totally unacceptable!.
Sigh
Uzek,
God is bigger than the church, a man-made institution. Your excuse for the Pope’s inactions tells me how little faith the Pope – and the Church – have in God in taking care of his church if it should crumble.
Here is again another question: Does the church really trust and have faith in their God in taking care of it?
Looks like love is already out the window. Next would be faith.
Re Sheep and wolves
Vatican is already been long rotten but it does have many extraordinary people. There is no way to police a spawning organization like vatican.
That does not mean that all Christian is like Yap or those pedophille priest.
Whether you like it or not, the world and the natural order will goes as God’s command. And God certainly disapprove homosexuality.
Do it for your own pleasure, and pray that you guys escape divine intervention.
Below is a link to Newton’s end world calculation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton%27s_occult_studies
I believe the resurrection of State of Israel and Hebrew language has manifested that Lord’s will shall be.
The orderly movement of celestial bodies all indicates the existence of God.
Good luck, and hope God bless you.
180) Uzek on November 18th, 2009 10.49 pm
God disaprove homosexuality according to Bible. That is beyond doubt.
really? though I may tempting moderation from TOC, please state a passage when woman-woman relationship is mentioned. The two passage brought up by [160) Oh Holy on November 18th, 2009 5.59 pm] , LEVITICUS 18:22 and LEVITICUS 20:13 seem to be against gay ONLY.
Is it homosexuality, or just gay? If the latter, when only gay?
Incidentally, as brought up by Kezu, if this two passages are relevant, why about the one about shellfish and clothes of two types?
lobo76
Allow me to hazard a guess.
The reason *probably* is back in those days women are not consider an equal of men.
So technically what they do with each other don’t matter.
Being ‘property’ means sex is not an option. Its obligation.
Story of Lot’s daughters, …. need i say more?
So the moral of the story is this, when you have no right, what you do don’t matter.
177) Arix @UK on November 18th, 2009 10.37 pm
Rightfully speaking, the Bible is a guide for how to follow Christ, and thus how to follow God.
Therein lies the problem. For this, I would like to quote from a STAR WARS novel. hehehe… where one of the characters say, “Everything I say is a lie”.
Essentially, what the character is trying to say, everything he SAYS is necessarily limited by language which cannot convey ALL that he wish to say. i.e lying by omission. The very same limitation that is suffered by the Bible.
Maybe the people who wrote the Bible did correctly interpret the ‘religion’… but can human language convey it? If you are depending on the Bible as a guide, then I would say you are living a lie. Since Christianity is about a personal relationship with God, then just have the relationship. Listen to what your God is telling you (if you really can hear it) and not through a book written by others.