Why did the previous counsel withdraw the appeal?

this picture shows how a humble and simple mother and son together. it may not be appealing to us, but in itself is such a beautiful picture.. is like any us here , as parents or son together. is very sad that this chap is facing the death penalty and to be hang, but thats the law in SG, don’t mess around with drugs trafficking. however after reading his background and his story, i think it take a ’stone heart’ to hang him, OMG he is just 19, I hope our million judge/ president shows some humanlity in them to this case to spare him from the gallow….

I hope the court will give him a chance.

It’s really sad for someone so young to receive the death sentence.

The law against drug trafficking is so well known and yet there are people who still want to take that risk.

Hi, kudos to you guys for the in-depth reporting on the same day. Its stuff like this that make the difference – filling the gaps that the legacy media consciously or unconsciously miss out. Really appreciate it.

how touching; mother and child, set to part by the guillotine. the child at a fine young age of nineteen, a sibling to six others, a child whom a mother laboured willingly for, about to die.

we can about as much surmise who’d take the greatest hit – his mother.

she, who toiled as the sole breadwinner to seven, who kept the family up without a man, who hitherto has yet to know the cruel hand of fate.

why singapore? why drugs?

i personally do not find reason (or any justification whatsoever) with the hand yong was dealt with; why ruin a fine young man, who, after this ordeal, is bound to lead a changed life?

was he wrong? yes.

but did he deserve the death penalty, especially at nineteen? i don’t think so.

give him a chance to change

had not been following this case, but reading it makes me sad…not just for him, but also for us

first, he was only a boy when he committed the offence…the law should not be devoid of mercy …i feel sorry for the mum who will know she only has enough time to say goodbye to her son whom she had raised singlehandedly painstakingly by being a dishwasher….just imagine…..

yes, it’s a tough call, i know, where does one draw the line, you might ask

whom do we hang, or to whom do we show mercy?

and why did the persecution declined justice choo’s suggestion? i thought the judge showed mercy here by taking events and situation in context, but it’s the administrators who pushed the envelope, in typical do-it-by-the-book style

besides, in this case, he doesn’t sound like someone who understands english, mandarin, tamil or malay…the languages where the death penalty is announced….we have not done enough to advertise our country’s heavy penalty to ensure drug traffickers are well aware of the consequences

we can’t say we’re blameless

perhaps we should examine if we’ve done enough to create awareness of our stiff penalties in this respect? have we done enough to prevent?

they say prevention is better than cure….why wait for someone to fall in before trying to find a way out for them via president’s clemency and what have you?

stop them before they end up in our jail or courts

ps. is there anything else we can do to appeal on his behalf? i’m happy to sign a petition if it helps

I remember seeing a report somewhere that he was just 18 and a half years when the offence was committed.I believe he could be spare from capital punishment if he was born 7 month or 1 year later.ie.below the age of 18.But being born earlier is not his fault.
He should be punish for his action but hope that he can be spared from capital punishment.,on account of his age and family background.

By hanging Yong, those who really suffer are his mother and siblings.
Mr President and judge – have a heart! Please don’t indirectly punish his innocent loved ones.

I hope someday, someone would want to compile all the death sentences meeted out in Singapore….from the time she was found…..

Then perhaps search for the families and write about how they felt about the hanging…..and how it played in the family….

and make sure the first copy goes to the DPP….

I know someone who got hanged…..knew him from quite a young age, a young carefree person he was….slept on my couch outside the flat….then I heard that he had an accident , when he was a baby…somebody dropped him…yes, that’s just what i was told….he had a metel in his head after the operation…

He killed someone quite badly…manupilated well,he was…really well by his accomplices
how sad I feel those days when me and all our friends used to manupilate him to get us to do things for us…like buying drinks…
He had an IQ way below average and had been treated at IMH as well.

11) prettyplace on December 2nd, 2009 11.55 pm
someone would want to compile all the death sentences meeted out in Singapore….from the time she was found…..

To be fair, that someone probably should gather testimonials from the victims (of those who were sentences to death) as well. Both should be given together as a set.

He had an IQ way below average and had been treated at IMH as well.

Did he still get the death sentence? Shouldn’t he be spared because of his lower than average IQ?

[i]Yong, sixth of seven children, was raised in Sandakan, Sabah.[/i]

the law/prosecutor should had READ where he comes from…
how many of this highLEE educateds knows about sabah?
beside the orang asli tribes?
i been to sabah…mountain climbin and monkey trainnin..
even in sabah the shoppin centres ain’t aircon as well
~zhee!~ ~sigh~ as well

ps part II
yes the sabahtians are often discrimated by the west malaysians
trust me on that..even the former british colonial masters know the sabahtian deep political history….

What law are the courts applying to take away the boy’s life? One that can be twisted and bent by the DPP as they deem fit?

If LKY or his son has any decency, convince all Singaporeans that such laws applied to everybody. Explain to us why some selected foreigners could be spared with a reduced charges of possessing exactly 14.99 grams of the drugs?

Explain to us why foreign maids are always spared the death sentence nowaday even if they commit the most gruesome murder? Explain to us why the executive editor of Shin Min Daily only spent two hour sitting in jail for causing fatal accident, when other offenders have to spend months or years?

Abolish the death sentence now PAP! Don’t be hypocratic. No thinking Singaporeans will believe that your drug laws are fair and just!

set him free, make him work for the CNB.

16) Jeff on December 3rd, 2009 2.04 am

Agree with Jeff on this one. Hardly anyone seems to have any sympathy for the lives that this boy has ruined. Drugs aren’t cigarrettes, and the habit is impossible to kick.

We have capital punishment for the most heinous of crimes, and drug trafficking is one of them.

Jeff @16

You seem to be taking your anger of drugs on this drug related crime and lost your aim of addressing the real drugs smuggling issue. For the authorities it is just a cop out which many here are very angry about because not only are they executing a 19 yr old who is found in possession of the drugs, they are not going after the trader, the real smuggler of the drugs.

There does not seem to be much of a trial. So many questions need answering esp if you want to kill someone and to stop drugs. How do you prove that Yong is taking his own risk for a big gain in smuggling the drugs? Even if you can prove it, is he intelligent or mature enough to knowingly gamble his life and for what reward?

Yes, ok execute the drug smuggler (I think many still agree) but NOT anyone who is found with drugs. Please do note the difference between a drug smuggler and someone who is found to have the drugs.

Murder is also a heinous crime. Why are there trials? Why not execute the murderer straightaway? It is to determine if the murderer knowningly kill the victim, or if the murderer is of sound mind, or if the murderer is provoked (reducing the sentence) or if the murderer acted in self defence (man slaughter).

Why in the case of drugs, anyone found in possession, even if the drugs have been planted, cannot stand trial and has to be executed whatever the case? Why? Are the authorities so eager to get rid of the only lead and witness they have to the drug lord? Often these are powerful and dangerous people you don’t want to mess with. I can only say we have a weak and useless authority to stem drugs. It is much easier to get rid of poor and less intelligent beings, in order to show that the authorities are strict on drugs and are doing something if someone is caught. You think they care to investigate? Not only do they not have the guts, they are lazy and have no passion to seek the big boys out.

The situation we have today is all no thanks to having a weak and useless leader. If the PM of this country has any sense of duty, he will order full investigation into this matter. Drugs concern all the population and this case concerns a young boy’s life who does not even live here.

Siow one. China man come here kill anyone they like also nvr kana hang.
Smuggle drug got prosecuted.
Justice. The judge has different judgement towards ppl from different nations yah.

The unfortunate fact of the matter is that there is nothing the judge can do regardless of how merciful he feels. In these cases, the death penalty is mandatory, so the accused can only either hang or be acquitted. And since the facts are so clear in this case it’d actually be a greater injustice to acquit.

The only people with any real power in these cases are the DPPs or the President. But the DPPs themselves have to answer to their own bosses. For all we know, the DPP fighting this case might not even want this guy to hang. As for the President, well… I don’t even need to say anything.

The only real long term solution here lies with Parliament. Given the seriousness of the offence, the death penalty should be available, but it should not be mandatory. Only by having two layers of discretion, both judicial and prosecutorial, can we ensure that those who get hanged truly deserve it.

19) Discern on December 3rd, 2009 3.51 am

Consumption of drugs doesnt invoke the death penalty. This guy is being charged for drug TRAFFICKING, which means that they have sufficient evidence to prove that he is not only in possession of drugs, but also involved in smuggling and trading.

Jai:

Do I read the Straits Times for news? What news? Occasionally I go there Just for Lauffs. But too much makes you brain damage.

Protect our younger generation.BOYCOTT STRAITS TIMES. Set aside one day and Boycott ST.

Read the following news before making any assumptions:

==========================================
A MALAYSIAN, who was only 19 when he became a drug mule last year, was ordered to be hanged on Friday.
Yong Vui Kong was found guilty of trafficking in 47g of heroin on June 13 last year by Justice Choo Han Teck.

During the two-week long trial, his lawyers had argued that Yong was unaware of the contents in the packages in his possession.

They said Yong was merely following the instructions of his boss in Johor Baru to give ‘presents’ to people here.

These were wrapped in colourful wrapping paper and Yong had been assured by his boss that he would not land in trouble.

His boss had also made him promise not to open the packets.

Although Yong had told police he stood to receive $2,000 for running the errand, he denied it in court, saying that he had made up the lie as the police would not believe if he had told them he was just helping his boss.

The identity of the ringleader, who Yong said drove a Singapore-registered car, is unknown.

Dismissing the defence arguments, Deputy Public Prosecutors Peter Koy and Stella Tan argued that some of the packets had their ends opened and Yong would have seen the drugs.

Perhaps most damaging was the evidence of Yong’s accomplice Reggie Gwee Chin Hian, 22, who testified that he had received drugs from Yong five to six occasions between May and June last year.

There had also been two past instances when the drugs were not wrapped when he received them.

The court heard that Yong would drive into Singapore with the drugs.

Once here, he would receive an SMS message with the telephone numbers of the recipients. On his trip on June 12, Yong, an odd-job worker, asked his friend Chai Hor Hsiang, 24, to accompany him.

They drove in at about 10pm and went to Yishun where Yong passed about 14g of heroin to Lim Foo Seng, 51 and received $5,000 in return.

Not realising that they were being trailed by Central Narcotics Bureau officers, they then tried to drive to Meritus Mandarin Hotel in Orchard Road.

They got lost and Yong boarded a taxi with his friend following in the car.

When arrested shortly after midnight after his delivery to Gwee. Yong looked shocked and asked for his mother.

His lawyers, who were assigned by the State as Yong was unrepresented in a capital case, told the court that Yong’s father passed away many years ago and his mother was very sickly.

Both Gwee and Lim have been jailed for 22 years for trafficking in drugs.

Yong’s friend Chai was given a discharge not amounting to an acquittal as there was no evidence he knew of the drugs.

Yong looked devastated when the death sentence was passed, and was seen wiping tears away as he was manacled.

His case will now go before the Court of Appeal.

Link: http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/Singapore/Story/STIStory_302234.html?vgnmr=1

Latest news about the stay of execution. Ravi did a damn good job, everyone should give him a pat on his back!

==========================================
SINGAPORE: In what is possibly the first case of its kind, the High Court has granted a Malaysian drug runner’s application for a stay of his execution.

Yong Vui Kong, 21, was found guilty in November 2008 of trafficking 47g of heroin by Justice Choo Han Teck, who imposed the mandatory death sentence for offences involving more than 15g of heroin.

He was scheduled to be hanged on Friday.

Yong had previously made an application to appeal the sentence, but that was withdrawn before he appeared before the Court of Appeals. It is not known why he had decided to withdraw.

The ruling on Wednesday means Yong’s lawyer, Mr M Ravi, will now be given a chance to have the case heard before the Court of Appeals – the highest court in the Singapore justice system – on December 8.

On Tuesday, the lawyer made the application before Justice Woo Bih Li, arguing that until the appellant process had been exhausted, a person cannot be deprived of his life.

According to Mr Ravi, it is also now clear that the mandatory death penalty, particularly for cases not involving murder, is “contrary to international law because it is both arbitrary and cruel”.

In his opinion, it is also necessary to “preserve the status quo and protect his client from execution until the full Court of Appeal has heard his application for an extension of time and full appeal on the merits”.

Mr Ravi also called on Justice Woo to order “a stay of execution until the matter is heard by the full three Court of Appeal judges, as required by Section 30 of the Supreme Court Judicature Act”.

Despite protests from Deputy Public Prosecutor Jaswant Singh, Justice Woo agreed that Yong should be given the fullest opportunity to have his appeal heard as he was about to be executed.

During the two-week trial in 2008, Yong, then 19 years old, had told the court that he was unaware of the contents of the packages as he drove into Singapore, and that he was merely following the instructions of his boss in Johor Bahru to deliver items to people here.

The identity of Yong’s employer, who is said to be driving a Singapore-registered car at the time of the offence, is unknown.

After the hearing, Mr Ravi told MediaCorp that he felt that the outcome was “fair” and “encouraging”.

“It is important that the court carefully considers the death sentence … the accused was at that time young and naïve, so this is an opportunity for people like him to be rehabilitated,” the lawyer added.

To all this, and all previous death row convictions meted out by the State; SOMEONE up there, sitting comfy in his high chair, must surely have some HEART. Convert the sentence to a lengthy prison term.
Killing Traffickers teaches them NOTHING when they are Brain Dead.
That said, I DO NOT condone Drug Trafficking but in seeing to & upholding the tough stance on drugs, I think being a so often proclaimed Developed Country – the powers that be should now SHOW some human EQ – compassion begets compassion. It may also reflect POSITIVELY come 2010’s Elections.

23) XiiAoGeNgEnX

When did I mention ‘consumption’ of drugs? The fact that Yong is “involved in” smuggling and trading, means that there are other members. Was he the real owner of those drugs? Did he buy those drugs to trade in Spore? Do you believe that this 19 yr old from a poor family has the money to do that and is able to scheme this?

An effective law to stem drugs would be to sentence the trafficker to a lesser sentence but sentence ‘the boss’ to death or life imprisonment. Let the boss gamble on his own life. If these big boys know that if their carriers are caught, they themselves will be implicated (with capital punishment), at least they will think twice when they want to make use of anybody.

If the law goes after the big boys or first owners of the drugs, at least they cannot make use of people like Yong as decoy (probable) because they themselves will be in trouble. Also they may even turn down younger naive members who might get caught.

[...] November 30, 2009 by Jacob 69er Dec 3 update: Read TOC’s report High Court grants rare stay of execution [...]

If the death penalty prevented people from trafficking then we wouldn’t be reading about this boy today. But it doesn’t work.

The ONLY way to eliminate drug traffickers is to allow legitimate companies to *undercut* the drug traffickers’ prices with legal drugs. This will strip the drug traffickers of their customers, eliminate the profits they make from selling drugs and force them out of the market.

The result will be less crime, greater national security and far more difficulty for youngsters to obtain drugs than what it is today.

jway, are you kidding? Or are you one of the drug lords/traffickers trying to legitimize your drug trade?

It is really absurb that you advocate legalizing harmful drugs that are destroying and ruining people’s life!

“If the death penalty prevented people from trafficking then we wouldn’t be reading about this boy today. But it doesn’t work.”

The intention of the death penalty was to act as a deterrent, and while it may not totally eradicate drug trafficking, at least it helps in containing the worsening of it. Compare Singapore with Malaysia, Indonesia or even Australia, we do have a much lower rate of drug abuses and availability of illegals drugs were much more controllable than the above countries!

Having said that, I find it hard to beleive that Yong was not aware of the death penalty…it was obvious that he was simply trying his luck due to the temptation of quick and easy money!

I would like to urge people here to also consider the pains and sorrows of those who have family members, friends or relatives whose life were being ruined and destroyed by the availability of illegal drugs.

Some may argue that Yong had pleaded innocent and not knowing what’s in the packets, but who will not when faced with a death sentence, right?

Having said that, I do support Yong’s chance to be rehabilitated, rather than being sentenced to death!

31) jway

u got to be crazy. legalizing drugs?
u are missing the point- the problem is not the black market but the drugs itself.

28) Discern

it’s true that there is a whole supply chain involved in drugs.. from the farmer in Afghanistan/Golden Trangle, to the drug lords and the carriers.

The problem is national jurisdiction. The farmers/druglords and everyone else remain back in the origin country, where drugs could be legal or the authorities have no means of tackling the problem. So all this talk about ‘going after drug lords in some third world country’ etc. has no real meaning in legal terms because we cannot prove and persecute for a crime committed overseas. It’s not a singapore problem per se but a weakness in the international order.

The only one who falls within Singapore jurisdiction (and actually harming Singaporeans) is the carrier bringing drugs into SIngapore. it is unfortunate the only ones we can actually prosecute are the low-ranking carriers. But considering that they are the only ones available and they are the ones doing DIRECT damage to Singapore, stopping and prosecuting them is reasonable.

of course, the big question is the death penalty effective or excessive?
that part is debatable.

but the point is- as long as the law is standing, it should be applied (regardless the penalty is a fine or the death penalty), unless there are strong mitigating factors. if we winch every time we enact a punishment, there is no point in having laws, because we will never enforce them.

Kudos to TOC and M Ravi (especially) for his untiring effort to try tosave a life.
We live to treasure the moments of regret and mistakes of our life. With such experiences, many a wrongdoer with be awakened and born again to do good.

Yong Vui Kong is still a young man, not violent. His greatest mistake is to so naive and taken in by the monetary evils of the deed.

Please give him a chance to live again. Men make law. Sincerely appeal to the Court of Appeal to commute YVK sentence to life imprisonment.

A stay of execution is a ray of hope. We pray for your rehabilitation and the Judges’ compassion and humane understanding of life’s sacredness.

I am very surprised that the original posting ommitted the very important information as stated in one of the posts, and also in the Straits Times:

“Perhaps most damaging was the evidence of Yong’s accomplice Reggie Gwee Chin Hian, 22, who testified that he had received drugs from Yong five to six occasions between May and June last year. ”

It seems to me that Censorship is not confined to the Shitty Times alone.

zero

//zero

Yeah, but it doesn’t change the fact that the capital punishment is cruel.

Its a double edged sword. If he is granted clemency, then the evil drug lords will make use of even more of his kind knowing that the law will be more lenient. Its a lose-lose situation.

19) Discern on December 3rd, 2009 3.51 am
How do you prove that Yong is taking his own risk for a big gain in smuggling the drugs? Even if you can prove it, is he intelligent or mature enough to knowingly gamble his life and for what reward??

errr…

In the above article: Yun Leong added that Yong had been aware that the packages he received contained drugs, but he was assured by his superiors that these drugs were of an insufficient quantity to warrant the death penalty..

What have we done wrong as a society? How have we failed?

Have we prioritized the study of the life sciences over that of rehabilatitive studies for example?

Rehabilation IS possible. If only we knew how. It is we who are taking the lazy way out of a problem by not challenging ourselves to understand human failings and what we can do help the situation.

The failure is OURS and not Vui Kong’s

I don’t care if this BOY – he’s NOT a man no matter what anyone says – is locked away for another 15 years.

But PLEASE spare him his life.

Not one of us here on earth is God who can decide that he gets his life or not. If you were not personally responsible for bringing this boy to earth, then you are equally not personally responsible for taking him away from this earth.

I want to offer my deepest apologies to Vui Kong’s mother for the suffering that we, as a Singapore society, have brought to her.

It’s not the judge who sentenced her son to death but we, a Singapore society so bent on an eye for an eye that has.

For anyone who has harsh words to say about Vui Kong’s crime, I would prefer that you are man or woman enough to tell it to his mother’s face instead of resorting to the cowardly act of writing it here.

[i]IF we let this swine go, then we will have to let the next one go, and the next and the next and the next…[/i]

i liked you..you already condemed him to hell when you LABELLED him a SWING
are you a west malaysian or the overhighLEE educated type?
try lowered your helicopter view from your ivory tower and travelled to sabah
have a meal with the orang asli..after luch i will arran for the prang asli to have lunch again…you are the MAIN course…
now regardin the law…the next 1? how about those harboured and protected by the singapoor government..i don’t see you labelled them as PIGs/Dogs?

To anonymous on December 3rd, 2009 10.10 am:

You said:

Re: “Its a double edged sword. If he is granted clemency, then the evil drug lords will make use of even more of his kind knowing that the law will be more lenient. Its a lose-lose situation.”

Discern on December 3rd, 2009 4.07 am had actually raised a brilliant point:

Re: ‘”Why in the case of drugs…[are] the authorities so eager to get rid of the only lead and witness they have to the drug lord?”

We can actually co-opt those who have the connections to the drugs underworld by not only offering them another chance at a better life, we also give ourselves a chance at getting to the root of the problem.

Am I being sly by suggesting this?

Yes, I will readily admit that I am but I’m OK with it only because I am still grappling with not knowing what the solutions are.

Why is it, at other times, it doesn’t matter whether the cat is black or white as long it it catches the mice?

“Its a double edged sword. If he is granted clemency, then the evil drug lords will make use of even more of his kind knowing that the law will be more lenient. Its a lose-lose situation. ”

I’m not sure how that really works. Sparing Yong wouldn’t suddenly increase the number of people queuing up to be drug mules. Neither would drug lords suddenly find it much easier to recruit people to be their mules. Don’t forget who they usually target to smuggle their stuff – the poor and uneducated ones. Those who don’t know about the death penalty. They are told they won’t be hung even if caught for the amount is too small. Between perhaps a jail term and money that could last much longer than the jail sentence, if you’re desperate enough, why won’t you? It’s the same reason why many migrant workers would take a chance with cheating agents, with illegal employment to come here. Just for a few dollars more.

50g lost to drug barons are nothing. Do you really think the drug barons actually only just send ONE trafficker across the border each time they wanna smuggle? Did it occur to you that they might have deliberately tipped off the customs about this ONE trafficker of 50g so that others carrying the really significant supplies would get through while the police are busy looking out for this one bugger?

There’s a reason why they are called ‘drug mules’ and not ‘drug transportation executives’. Because the barons know that there will never be a shortage of suckers willing knowingly or unknowingly to take that chance.

For anyone who has harsh words to say against Vui Kong’s death penalty, I would prefer that you are man or woman enough to tell it to the wrenching fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, friends and relatives of those people whose life had been ruined and wasted by illegal drugs made available by drug traffickers like Vui Kong, instead of resorting to the cowardly act of writing it here.

40) Robox on December 3rd, 2009 10.44 am wrote:

“I want to offer my deepest apologies to Vui Kong’s mother for the suffering that we, as a Singapore society, have brought to her.”

===========

I hope Robox will also offer his deepest apologies to those victims of Vui Kong’s drugs.

Goodness gracious, what kind of society have we become with people trying to make a “martyr” out of a unscrupulous criminal and ignored the wicked intentions they have and the very crime they have comiitted?

Of course, there will be arguments that if the drug addicts had not chosen to try out drugs, they wouldn’t end up as addicts. Similarly, if Vui Kong had not try his luck in trafficking drugs, he’ll not end up being sentence to death for his crimes.

When a someone dies in a road accident, do you blame the driver or the car?

TQ M Ravi

FACT – More people die from smoking each year than from all known drug abuses combined.

FACT – Many people who end up taking drugs also smoke. If ’soft drugs’ is the gateway to hard drugs like heroin, then cigarettes can also be considered gateway to soft drugs.

FACT – psychological profile of drug abusers show consistent correlations between family background, income, education, relatiionships with parents etc.

FACT – The government does not ban the import and sale of cigarettes as long as its taxable.

FACT – going by percentage of total populationinstead of absolute numbers, there isn’t much significant difference between Singapore and countries without the death penalty for drug traffickers.

If anyone is looking for people to blame for ruined families caused by drug abusers, there is a whole myriad of factors to look at. Pinning the blame squarely on drug mules is failure to consider all other factors, Including the responsibility of the abuser and his family as well.

Deter drug trafficking, yes. But harshness doesn’t mean effectiveness. A life, any life, is too important a thing to lose just to send a message.

45) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on December 3rd, 2009 11.32 am
When a someone dies in a road accident, do you blame the driver or the car?

The driver.

First I must add that your analogy is flawed, coz the car is ‘dead’ and does not have the capacity to make choices… even desperate ones.

To continue your analogy, this thread is to save the ‘car’. And to earn compassion for the ‘car’, supporters of death penalty are asked to tell it to the ‘manufacturers’ (parents and family members) in the face, that it will be scrapped.

Interestingly, no one bother to talk about the ’someone’ who was killed in the accident and his/her family.

Judge Woo you are a man with a great heart.

heaven knows.

you will surely be bless.

Hi Lobo,

” Interestingly, no one bother to talk about the ’someone’ who was killed in the accident and his/her family. ”

please read post 49.

Let’s not forget the drug abuser also has a choice, even desperate ones. No one forces him to take drugs. The drug abuser ruins his family with his choice. The drug trafficker also, because his family will never see him again after the hanging.

One is given a chance. The other no chance.

How does that make sense?

“To continue your analogy, this thread is to save the ‘car’.”

Lastly you don’t save something by killing it. Unless you’re the vietnam war general who believes you have to kill an entire village just to save it.

The poor boy who committed the crime may not know what he was doing at that point in time as such I welcome the news.

However, I also would like to caution opening a floodgate of similar cases in future.

I’m wondering, how come TOC is giving this case so much coverage? I’ve seen a few articles on this and an event organized by TOC in support of this guy Could the editors clarify their stand on this?

Is TOC supporting the abolishment of the death penalty for drug trafficking?

I want to ask a question;
How is it that the government deems a person of 19-20 years of age is not adult enough to vote, but is instead old enough to be executed?

I want to ask another question;
Why do they point their finger at us Singaporeans for being SELFISH (aka un-graceful) when they themselves, executes people readily and uphold their policies SELFISHLY?

I am an indirect victim of drug abuse…I have seen how drugs had destroyed my elder brother’s life and how he was reduced to just a living body because of the effects of illegal drugs! This is despite the many efforts put in by family members to help him but the availability of drugs and the already strong addiction for so many years really left us with not much ways to help him, but to sent him to a drug rehabilitation centre, but he is already like rotting his life away (being 42 years old now).

Hence, I would ask those who similarly have family members or friends who are drug addicts to be present too at the court on Tuesday as well.

We need to show solidarity in supporting the death penalty for drug traffickers, and this is the best time and place for us to remind those, who think they can go round ruining the life of others through their greed in making quick money, to think twice or thrice before they become a drug trafficker.

If I have the opportunity to meet Vui Kong’s mother or brother, I’ll also let them that Vui Kong’s death sentence was a justified consequences and outcome of the heinous crime he had committed. It is his retribution!

Botox on December 3rd, 2009 11.19 am:

Re: “For anyone who has harsh words to say against Vui Kong’s death penalty, I would prefer that you are man or woman enough to tell it to the wrenching fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, friends and relatives of those people whose life had been ruined and wasted by illegal drugs made available by drug traffickers like Vui Kong, instead of resorting to the cowardly act of writing it here.”

[Botox], and also [Who is really suffering? on December 3rd, 2009 11.31 am]:

Why don’t all of you who are claiming that lives are actually DESTROYED by the consumption of drugs actually PROVE your case?

True, there are some people who overdose on drugs and die. But cases of overdosing on drugs are actually the tiny minority who – if you really want to know – had preexisting problems and who didn’t know how to solve their problems, or who don’t live in societies that do.

Like Singapore.

And they resorted to drugs to medicate their PAIN. Not different from how people turn to alcohol for their problems.

It’s human society that created that pain. That’s YOU and ME.

WHY DON’T WE DEAL WITH HOW WE CREATED THAT PAIN IN THE FIRST PLACE?

And we still don’t call for the death of owners of businesses that serve alcohol. Or the government that makes alcohol legal.

Of course, even ONE life at risk of death is important. But that brings me back to my point:

1. Is it our own incompetence at offering rehabilitative services that is the problem?

2. Is it our own inability to realize that people are on earth BECAUSE they are put here by a Higher Power to learn something? Because they were imperfect to begin with? Why are we asking for perfection from those we know are imperfect?

Heck, how perfect are YOU? And should YOU be put to death for your imperfections?

The cases of overdosing on drugs have been oversensationalized by fascist PIGS intent on criminalizing anyone who is not PERFECT in their books. Never mind that those same fascist PIGS are themselves not perfect.

The MAJORITY of people who consume drugs – people who you are claiming have lives that being destroyed by so-called drug traffickers – are actually very FUNCTIONING people who are no different from people who drink alcohol every night but are able to go to work every day.

Stop this oversensationalizing.

Sensationalizism is not FACT.

The comments seem to be very biased towards the state and our legal system. Understandable. No system is perfect. But one must remember that one man’s meat is another man’s poison. I’ll just offer a few more points for everyone to contemplate about.

1. Legitamizing Drugs. Its not crazy. Its been done in Netherlands, Portugal, to name few. Limited success. But just like the death penalty, just cos it doesn’t work 100% doesn’t mean it is doomed to failure. All legal systems are work in progress. Arguments for and against are too long to put on here. If interested, google it.

2. All the above on drugs mules (i.e. tip offs, etc.) are all credible I am sure. You might say the drug barons are all inhumane creatures, which they may be. But one must remember that this is a business. Where there is a need, there is a supply, esp one as lucritive as drugs. Torching the barons, slapping the mule and addict seems to be the fairest, but how practical and feasible is that? Are you sure the authorities are not working towards it? What makes some here so sure that the authorities are simply being lazy and useless and all that stuff? Would YOU like to try, seeing that there are some that think that catching drug barons is as easy as picking a flower from the garden.

3. The high payback gaurantees that there will always be someone that will either be suckered in, tempted by knowingly, coerced, etc. into making such trips. Having laws like the death penalty makes even the dumbest think twice. Sure, some still get conned into carrying. But I am sure for every 1 tat gets doped into believing they are safe, many others decide they’d rather take the “lesser paying” american or european routes. Which means the drugs don’t come into Singapore. Which ALSO means that this law, agree with it or not actually works to some degree.

4. Sympathy to the family. Sympathy to the victim. Do think he will rehabilitate. Pray that the legal system will be leniant on him. BUT if he still gets the death penalty, that really is the price he had to pay for doing what he did. Agree with the system or not, it is the system our country employs and what use is a sword if you don’t use it? Don’t like the sword? Petition, write, make noise (civil disobedience, not riot or make silly noises where ppl will just end up laughing at you), write to your MP, write to the Silly Times as someone here put it, write the Today, write here, organise a visible event, do SOMETHING! But in the mean time, respect the law.

5. If u think our leaders are so bad and our system so flawed, just how the heck do you think SG got to where it is right now in 40 yrs? And i challange anyone that thinks SG is a screwed up country: If you can find a better one, why not simply MOVE THERE. Can’t? Won’t? No qualifications? Well, I guess us lowly SGeans will simply have to put up with you… so pitiful. SG, llke any country, has its flaws, strengths, weakness, etc. We are not suitable to everyone. In the wise words of an old swedish friend to his swedish counterparts, “If you don’t like SG, LEAVE!”.

No system is perfect.

kill fast = harvest organ fast = sell to some rich man from other country….

welcome to singapore….the organ farm of south east asia

:)

DevilsAdvocate on December 3rd, 2009 1.39 pm :

Re: “If u think our leaders are so bad and our system so flawed, just how the heck do you think SG got to where it is right now in 40 yrs?”

And where exactly has the SG ‘got to where it is right now in 40 yrs’?

Don’t just ask the question.

Answer it instead.

Re: “And i challange anyone that thinks SG is a screwed up country: If you can find a better one, why not simply MOVE THERE.”

Many have. I could be the next one.

Re: “Can’t? Won’t? No qualifications?”

What makes you think that those are the only considerations that come up when people consider migrating?

Re: “Well, I guess us lowly SGeans will simply have to put up with you…”

Yes, just like we have been putting up with fascists like you.

Re: “SG, llke any country, has its flaws, strengths, weakness, etc.”

But why do we insist on being so IMPERFECT and DEEPLY FLAWED?

Re: “We are not suitable to everyone.”

But you bloody well make it suitable for those who were born here.

Re: “In the wise words of an old swedish friend to his swedish counterparts, “If you don’t like SG, LEAVE!”

Sure.

Tell your Swedish friend to guarantee 100% that everyone who wants to leave Singapore is able to leave.

Especially to a country like Sweden.

Otherwise tell your friend to shut the **** up.

52) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on December 3rd, 2009 12.03 pm
One is given a chance. The other no chance.
How does that make sense?

you might as well compare a murder and a shoplifter while you’re at it. Why do you think one is given a death sentence and one is not?

Lastly you don’t save something by killing it.

huh? the statement is inherently correct, but I don’t know how it relates to our discussion.

This is the slogan for all Opposition Parties in the Next General Elections:

VOTE FOR CHANGE! YES, WE MUST! YES, WE CAN!

53) SINGAPORE SHORT STORIES on December 3rd, 2009 12.20 pm
The poor boy who committed the crime may not know what he was doing at that point in time as such I welcome the news.

You can read my post in 39 or refer to the 5th para from the bottom of the article.

ooOOoo, you are out of the topics discussed, care to offer or provide some proofs to substantiate your wild claims…else shut-up and sit down!

I find it so highly despicable of individuals coming here to spread rumours and lies!

Lobo76-

“you might as well compare a murder and a shoplifter while you’re at it. Why do you think one is given a death sentence and one is not?”

Um no leh. Unless you think the damage wrought by a drug abuser to himself and his family, not to mention the State (and us taxpayers) for the cost of rehabiliation is comparable only to a shoplifter.

59) DevilsAdvocate on December 3rd, 2009 1.39 pm

haha very interesting food for thought.

1) Woohoo Amsterdam baby! Hahaha narcotic capital of the world, where your food, drink and weed come on the same tray. I REALLY don’t think we’ll be going down that path anytime soon. :)

2) and 3) Singapore has one of the lowest rates of drug abuse in the world, because in the drug trade, we have one of the highest “operating costs”. If we keep executing their drug mules and traffickers, it raises their operating costs to unbearable levels and forces them to trade elsewhere. Simple economics. But while we can suppress the levels of drug abuse, it’s something that cannot be COMPLETELY eradicated, because the law is meant to deter reasonable, rational people. But in society, we cannot expect EVERYONE to be reasonable and rational.

4) Yes there’re many other more effective ways to change the system. But at the end of the day, you cannot expect that every change you try to implement will succeed. There is a silent majority out there that is entitled to their own views, which might or might not be the same as yours.

5) I disagree with you on this sir. This is Singapore, this is where I was born, bred and worked. This is where I watched my first movie, went on my first date and kissed my first girl. And this is where I will raise my children, grow old and die. Even if there is a better system out there, I wouldn’t move there so easily. I’d rather stay here and reform the system.

but i saw some stupid Justice

“2) and 3) Singapore has one of the lowest rates of drug abuse in the world, because in the drug trade, we have one of the highest “operating costs”. If we keep executing their drug mules and traffickers, it raises their operating costs to unbearable levels and forces them to trade elsewhere. Simple economics. But while we can suppress the levels of drug abuse, it’s something that cannot be COMPLETELY eradicated, because the law is meant to deter reasonable, rational people. But in society, we cannot expect EVERYONE to be reasonable and rational.”

Sorry, dun mean to barge in. By your argument it therefore means that it is ok to kill people who may not fall into the reasonable and rational category. At this moment, I find your thinking very irrational. How?

With regards to ‘drug rates’, I hope you are referring to percentage of population as opposed to absolute numbers. In a country of say, 40 million, if 1% takes drug, that would mean 400 000 people. In a country of 4 milion, even 10% of the population is less than 400,000.

Regardless, there are countries with lower ‘drug rates’, be it absolute or percentage figures that give lie to the fact that death penalty actually reduces drug abuse rates.

Let’s not forget that Singapore’s borders are much less porous than other countries.

It’s a fallacy to suggest death penalty has anything to do with the ‘low’ drug abuse rates.

Drug abuse is also tied to social factors and standards of living. You often find that countries with high drug abuse rates are poor countries. Similarly, profile of drug abusers will reveal that a higher percentage come from lower income, lower education families – those with lesser chance of social mobility.

With generally higher standards of living and education, that’s the other reason for our ‘low’ drug abuse rate.

Now regarding your simple economics. If your model is what drug barons and manufacturers follow, they would all have been working at Macdonald’s a long time ago. Maybe you would like to know the cost of making drugs isn’t terribly high. If out of ten traffickers who try to smuggle the same amount of drugs in, eight get caught, the profits made from the two that succeed would still be enough.

The issue is not just about capital punishment but the “mandatory” in mandatory death sentence.

I support capital punishment but I think the courts, not Parliament, should be given leeway to determine appropriate punishment ie no mandatory capital punishment.

The courts have no say in whether a person should be hanged. Once a person is convicted of such crimes, it is an automatic death sentence. There have been many cases challenging the law but it is common law that the courts themselves have no say in determining the sentence.

Unless Yong can prove that he is innocent, which he is not, only then will the death sentence be lifted. Parliament, not the courts, have decided on the sentence. Don’t forget that it is we, the citizens, who select the people in parliament that make the law, so all of us bear some responsibility for this sentence.

At the same time, the President also has the right to grant clemency. Whilst we can have some reprieve as the President was selected by default rather than elected in the last “election”, it is still a responsibility to take the vote seriously.

It is imho too late for Yong. Consider the stance of your MP candidate and Presidential candidate towards capital punishment and mandatory capital punishment, the next time you vote. It is your and our responsibility.

Ahhh the debate begins. Is Mavis around?

Ok. Those who support the death penalty, let me ask you two simple questions:

1. While you may support the death penalty itself, do you support it being “mandatory”? This is what the law in S’pore says, “Mandatory Death Penalty”.

2. And if you still support it being mandatory, do you then agree that judges should not have power to consider mitigating factors or extenuating circumstances? This is what the law in Singapore says. Judges have no such power.

Please give your views and we shall proceed.

Thank you.

67) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on December 3rd, 2009 3.03 pm
Um no leh. Unless you think the damage wrought by a drug abuser to himself and his family, not to mention the State (and us taxpayers) for the cost of rehabiliation is comparable only to a shoplifter.

You almost got it right.

The point was that the ‘damage’ between a drug abuser and drug trafficker is different. hence the different punishment. aka the ’sense’ you were looking for.

If you tot ‘damage’ wrong by a drug abuser is significant (let’s quantify it as X), then assume a drug trafficker can ‘feed’ Y number of drug abusers, the total damage is X x Y. Quite a lot more damage, right?

* wrought by a drug abuser

70) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on December 3rd, 2009 3.41 pm

Here are some numbers for you to look at.
http://www.yawningbread.org/arch_2005/yax-508.htm

Ironically, you just defeated the argument in that one. i.e 3 countries in that list have equal or better record of drug abusers, but I would put their social economic circumstance to be above ours, which is why despite not having the death penalty, we have about the same rate on drug abuse.

Now, with the economic crisis (like to recur as the stimulus packages are used up) and (imo) inept policy by our govt that increased our gini coefficient, we are likely (according your hypothesis) experience an upsurge in number of drug abusers. Following that logic to its end, it would thus make sense to have the death penalty to prevent the upsurge.

So, until we experience the Swiss level of living as promised by Ah Goh (which many of us agree that we are not there yet), we need to have the death penalty in place.

lobolobo.. it’s interesting you actually lifted figures from a source who is actually vehemently against the death penalty. Now if you would finish reading the whole article…

Next, your desire to win is really stretching your logic.

I said there are other factors to look at for Singapore’s low drug abuse rates that is independent of punitive measures. Somehow that translates into an argument that we should have a Swiss standard of living before we are ‘ready’ to remove the mandatory death sentence.

It’s all a very clever semantics game to you isn’t it? Take ONE factor without considering the other factors involved, and beat it into submission to fit your stand.

Of course, you would be cleverer if you didn’t conveniently ignore the case of Mexico, which few people would consider to be on par with Singapore in terms of GDP and standards of living, not to mention literacy rate.

Of course you also fail to consider our borders are much less porous than the borders of said countries with bigger land masses. If, with our borders being easy to patrol than the borders of Japan, Finland and Mexico we only have the same, NOT LOWER percentage of drug abusers IN SPITE OF the death penalty, that’s not saying a lot about the effectiveness of punitive measures isn’t it?

And no, pointing out correlations of drug abuse rates with other factors does not therefore equate to the moment a country’s GDP drops by 1%, there will be a corresponding x% increase in drug abuse. It’s not a simplistic mathematical equation. Thus your conclusion and your justification are wrong.

But it is altogether very likely it is this very simplistic form of thinking that explains why the death penalty exists still as a deterrent despite all evidence to the contrary.

“If you tot ‘damage’ wrong by a drug abuser is significant (let’s quantify it as X), then assume a drug trafficker can ‘feed’ Y number of drug abusers, the total damage is X x Y. Quite a lot more damage, right? ”

Which is why the drug trafficker should get a heavier sentence than the abuser. There’s no argument about that.

The question is – can the number of wasted years Y number of abusers spend being an addict causing grief to loved ones add up to equal termination of a life?

Is not a life sentence for the trafficker enough? Why punish more than what is necessary?

“If he is granted clemency, then the evil drug lords will make use of even more of his kind knowing that the law will be more lenient.” – anonymous @38

You might be right IF the law stops here. The law should jail the trafficker and go after the supplier – those who actually make, supply or own the damn thing. If Spore wants to make a name, and live up to its name of efficiency and stemming drugs, then organise a co-ordinated effort to hunt the drug lords down (at least in Asia).

This stupid drug law in SG is like guns kill therefore anyone found with a gun got to be hung. Why not go after the manufacturer and supplier. They make the damn thing for a profit and would find anyway to push them out to people. Young men would be attracted to own a gun even if not for self protection and yes, they thnk they would not get caught. Their perception of risk and threats are different from mature adults.

To those who want the execution in defence of victims harmed by drugs, aren’t those who knowingly consume the drugs no difference to Yong? They are mostly young, naive, vulnerable, misled etc. So why excuses and protection for the consumer but not the abused trafficker when the motivations are very likely the same. They are usually similar group of people.

If death penalty is meted out to the supplier of the drugs (proven to be supplier) to Yong, we would have much less to argue in defence of the harsh punishment.

Drug smuggling or peddling is a highly organised crime involving a gang. Do people here believe that Yong is capable of this?

I re-iterate if Yong took the risk of trafficking the drugs knowingly to get quick money, he need to be given a long jail sentence, death sentence (if they want to do it) should be meted out to the supplier.

Of course these have to be investigated and proven in court. Perhaps that is of no interest and urgency to SG but until this is the practice, the drug lords will continue to use the next mule, to try again & again. Our country will continue to send the next mule to the gallows and this continues on and on.

“If he is granted clemency, then the evil drug lords will make use of even more of his kind knowing that the law will be more lenient.” – anonymous @38

You really think the severe punishment of death to the drug lords’ mules works to send a deterrent message to them? They are evil as you aptly described, so they don’t care how many of their mules die.

It might send a deterrent message to the mules themselves but if only we have clever, mature and wise mules. But they won’t get picked by the evil drug lords in the first place.

I think because of his age at the time when he commited this crime. He should be sentence life imprisonment instead of dead penatly.

Yang @90, I disagree even to life sentence. Something like 10 yrs is severe enough esp if he is likely to rehabilitate. If a young chap possesses a gun (obviously for the purpose of harming someone else what are guns for) and haven’t killed anybody, should he be sentenced to life?

so now the dpp say the judge is wrong?

who is more experience or should be more correct?

Even if the Judge had erred in law, I believe the court of public opinion will rightly regard the decision as correct from a humanity standpoint.

FDFB on December 3rd, 2009 8.20 pm

“so now the dpp say the judge is wrong?”

It seams there is alot of infighting going on in court between the Judges. Take for example recently also there was the case of SDP members being acquitted by a judge, then the AG apealed for this to be overturned.

Maybe this is a good sign of change to come?

It’s a battle between the two camps of draconian old guards and the new open minded and rational judges.

First of all, I want to say that it is heartening to see so many of you here showing compassion. This to me, indicate that our society has hope.

Let me go on to air my views, agreeing and also regurgitating some points made by fellow posters.

A death penalty is murder. You can turn it any way you want but you can’t run away from the fact that it is knowingly and deliberately taken away someone’s life. IMHO, only God has the right to do that.

The government gave the reason of eradicating the drug problem to justify taking someone’s life but has it eradicate the problem? If it hasn’t solve the problem, then it does not serve the purpose. So how can we continue to kill people to serve no purpose?

To retribution at No.58, I’m sorry to hear about your brother’s life being ruined by drugs. You may hate me for saying this but your brother has to take some responsibility for the failures in his life. Yes, the people who brought them to your brother are evil but they are NOT the likes of Yong but the druglords with millions, if not billions in their bank accounts who sit comfortably on their lavish sofas enjoying the trappings of an elite. In the same token, gambling ruin families too. Are we going to petition to have the casino owners hanged?

About the boy, Yong. It’s easy to say that he should have known. I say easy meaning it is easy for people like us to say. We are educated and literate. We can find out things for ourselves through reading materials that we can discern are trustworthy. Imagine being otherwise. For those who are older like myself, don’t you remember when we were kids, how we looked up to the older boys and believed in everything they told us?

The government is always talking about how times and things have changed and that we must adapt to changes. Times indeed have changed. This mandatory death sentence was implemented at a time when we had never heard of the word `human rights’, much less understood it. Now it is the one concept that unite the world. Please people and Mr. PM, show that we can and dare to change.

58 Retribution

Am very sorry to hear about anyone hooked on drugs. Its very, very sad. I was just wondering how is it that there are still illegal drugs available in SG given the mandatory sentence for trafficking. Obviously it did not work and the drug lords are smiling from cheek to cheek that the young ignorant chap is taking the sentence and not himself.

Do you really think the drug lord will caution the trafficker that if caught he WILL face death sentence, and ask him to think about it carefully? Will he ask this boy, Yong (then 18) to go home, discuss it with his parents or siblings, think about it, etc and come back? What reward did the drug lord promise him? We do not know as well, probably a mansion? Remember its a promise, not a contract that got to be honoured by law. Do you have any idea how cunning these drug lords can be? If they are nice people, they won’t push drugs.

What you should do if you are so angry about drugs (like myself) is to push the authorities to improve the law, go after the people behind the trafficking, not just get your revenge on 19 yr old Yong by shouting for his execution.

I suppose from our govt’s point of view, killing this young man right away is far more economically feasible than having to feed him for life. That’s probably why our Prosecution refused to reduce it to a non-capital charge.

If say, Malaysia were to appeal for our clemency and are willing to trade off some benefits for Spore, do you think for a moment that this will be a lost case ?

Compassion has no value in our PAP system.

If the authorities found the darn drugs on a donkey, are they going to hang the donkey as well? If not, why treat a human less than an animal?

I hope for the best for this young chap. Killing him at this age is a little too much.

Sometimes prosecutors can really be a little overzealous, it seems.

i think he should be jailed but not executed.. he is only 19 back then.. isn’t it to harsh to end a 19 year old life just like that?

76) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on December 3rd, 2009 5.45 pm
lobolobo.. it’s interesting you actually lifted figures from a source who is actually vehemently against the death penalty. Now if you would finish reading the whole article…

well, you can’t say I ain’t objective then, can you? lol

It’s all a very clever semantics game to you isn’t it? Take ONE factor without considering the other factors involved, and beat it into submission to fit your stand.

Standard of living is hardly one factor. Many factors have to come together to create a standard of living. It’s not just the cost of rice, you know?

Of course, you would be cleverer if you didn’t conveniently ignore the case of Mexico, which few people would consider to be on par with Singapore in terms of GDP and standards of living, not to mention literacy rate.

I figured that they are too busy shipping the drugs to USA (0.6) and killing each other in the rush to do so. I remember your advice to not dwell on one factor. hehe

pointing out correlations of drug abuse rates with other factors …

was done because you wanted to introduce other factors. In which case, it doesn’t turn out so well for you either.

But it is altogether very likely it is this very simplistic form of thinking that explains why the death penalty exists still as a deterrent despite all evidence to the contrary.

Where exactly is this ‘evidence’ you are talking about? Can’t be the ‘correlations’ since you just say they don’t work. So what is it?

Frankly, the best ‘evidence’ would be a survey to drug mules and ask them to rate on a scale of 1-5 whether they are willing to risk their life to run drugs. or the drug lords to quote on average cost: if there is a difference between shipping drugs to a country with death penalty and one without.

78) Discern on December 3rd, 2009 6.29 pm

not sure if you have been in touch with the world… countries are very very sensitive about sovereign issues. Even if you want to save them (from Rebels,Taliban,etc), they’d still have think about it.

How then do you go after a drug lord in another country?

To the Public Prosecutor,

You are supposed to be a public prosecutor but when the public do not want you to hang him and you insist, whose interest are you representing????

I advise you not to have your mind and conscience muddled by your career priorities. We are talking about a life here. Someone’s son and brother. If you cannot relate to that, I’ll pray for Yong and you too. For he will be walking into Heaven’s gate with his innocence but you, I don’t know.

As for the Judge, you are indeed a product of God.

Honestly, this guy is a goner. Nothing you do can save him, really.

For those who wish him to be set free, or avoid the death penalty, it’s a lost cause. This is because you are fighting from a position of weakness. You have allowed the PAP government free reign to do anything they want, hence your opinions are nothing to them. They can pay themselves multimillion dollar salary, do business with drug lords and continue to execute drug runners as a show and there is nothing you can do.

Unless you did something in the coming election.

You cannot save this man today. But you can save others in the future, if you stop giving carte blanc to the PAP.

Once they do not hold dominant power in parliament, they have to go through YOU, the people, in order to do whatever they need to do.

Stop fighting a lost cause and start preparing for the next battle to win. Vote in more opposition.

WinstonCheng, why are you so sure that he is innocent?

Goodness, just how did we actually make a criminal like Yong a angel, to that state of even claiming innocence on his behalf (and he entering heaven’s gate, common…)

We want to save Yong from his death sentence, but that does not mean that Yong is innocent, we just don’t think that he deserve the death penalty…PLEASE, can you be more rational?

Ahhhh… the talking of semantics, examples, facts and figures.

How detached we have become when we talk about the life of a young man. A bot when he was caught.

HERE IS WHAT WE SHOULD BE ASKING FOR FROM THE GOVT:

We should first be asking for a moratorium on the death penalty. Moratorium means “hold on”, “wait”, “time-out”. Suspended. No killing during this period.

A moratorium, clearly, is needed in Singapore. It is totally absurd and ridiculous, not to mention utterly barbaric, for the State to kill teenagers.

Totally insane.

Does no one see this?

Or are we so drunk with righteousness that we have become blind?

A moratorium will allow us all to breathe. To allow the govt to listen to those who have real concerns about the current law on mandatory death penalty. There are so many flaws in the current system it is incredible that we can use it to put people to death !!

1. Judges’ hands are tied so much so that CJ Yong once said an innocent man can be hanged if procedures required it!!

Have we become blind?

2. The burden of proof is shifted to the accused, defying international standards of criminal law.

Have we become blind?

3. As long as the drugs found is more than a certain prescribed limit, death is COMPULSORY. Mandatory.

have we become blind?

4. Judges have no power to consider mitigating factors, extenuating circumstances. So, if a young boy with a low IQ, say, was fond with 47g of heroin, he must be put to death. The judges have no power to consider his circumstances.

Are we blind?

The only people with the real power in individual cases are not the judges. Not the govt. Not the defence. Not civil society groups. Not international activists. Not the media.

It is the Public Prosecutor.

The Attorney-General.

The AG can decide not to charge the accused with capital punishment.

If he does, the accused will not be given the mandatory death sentence.

In the current case of Yong Vui Kong, the trial judge had asked the prosecution whether he would consider a lesser charge since Vui Kong was only 19.

The prosecution declined.

And so, now Vui Kong will most likely be hanged.

The law as it stands is an ass.

It is a mockery.

It is a stupid set of laws.

Yes, and I will say it again:

IT IS A STUPID SET OF LAWS !!

And where is Mavis?

Mavis who screamed she wanted Vui Kong to die.

Where are you??

You do not want to hear. You do not want to know. You prefer to shut your mouth, Cover your ears. Shut your eyes.

You prefer to do these than to hear and listen to the facts?

Where are you?

How can you say you support the death sentence and want Vui Kong to die (indeed, you said you were glad) when you do not know a damn thing about the law in Singapore for the death penalty?

Where are you, Mavis?

58) Retribution & Botox

Firstly, Did they choose to take the drugs themselves? or did the trafficker offer then the drugs and force them to buy? This is just an assumption, but the trafficker just provide an easier assess for the drugs…

So why do you people push all the blame to the trafficker when the addicts themselves have the right to choose….they make the wrong choice, cos their families to suffer and we have people like you pushing the fault all to the mules…

If the mules have to be blame, 58) Retribution, this will be harsh, but your brother should be blame too…he is a human, and he can make the choice…no matter how hard and the choice he makes cause your family to suffer…then he is as much as fault as the mule…don’t just push the blame onto others…

“The serpent tempts the woman to eat from the tree of knowledge, telling her that it will not lead to death; she succumbs, and gives the fruit to the man, who eats also, “and the eyes of the two of them were opened.” Aware now of their nakedness, they make coverings of fig leaves, and hide from the sight of God. God asks them about what they have done. Adam blames Eve, and Eve blames the serpent.” ~ and we know what happens after that

this may be off-topic, but is this like another case of HC and our TH scenario, whereby they make the choice to invest in high risk portfolio, suffer loses, and the fault is not with them?

Do know, i support death penalty for serious crimes such as war crimes and murder…

“73) lobo76
Nice to see you here…Don’t mind me saying, but your equation seems to be missing something…firstly, you state that trafficker supplies to more people, thus more actual harm done…which is true

but what if, the abuser influence and get other people hooked on drugs too? of course the magnitude is smaller and lesser…..but still….focusing on one and accidentally forgetting another aspect it just typical of us all…everything is too subjective aye?

“if there is a difference between shipping drugs to a country with death penalty and one without. ”

Ohh….Then Mr Lobo, can you also ask this? does selling in a place with death penalty that regulates supply with constant demand, results in better profit…compared to a place whereby supply is not so regulated with constant demand… and of course after that, we have to look at the economy of scale.

but once again, Lobo, I am sure I will also make the mistake of pointing out stuff and missing out on another, for my own convenience…what to do….

@ 97 Tan Cheng Hua: at last someone who’s saying something that is perhaps remotely productive – why is the AG so damn powderful? How is it that the exercise of e law become so mechanical, even procedural – does it serve or obstruct justice? What kind of justice are we being served if we were to examine what our esteemed Law Min. & CJ said to an international panel not too long ago? I don’t see the champagne-class Law Society having any opinions on either of these issues which in my lay-man perspective concerns the public.

I don’t think society at large gets served any better with “blinkers-on” comments like #60 Devils Advocate.

It is probably only in TOC where you can find outrageously irrational people blaming drug addicts for their own situation, but spare the drug traffickers from any responsibilities for their criminal intent!

Gosh…what kind of world are we living in now?

To Tan Cheng Hua on December 4th, 2009 1.13 am:

Re: “HERE IS WHAT WE SHOULD BE ASKING FOR FROM THE GOVT…We should first be asking for a moratorium on the death penalty. Moratorium means “hold on”, “wait”, “time-out”. Suspended. No killing during this period.”

The UN has also issued a moratarium on all executions in its member countries; I believe this was only last year.

Singapore remains in defiance of this.

But coming on the heels of the same government’s introduction of the one-day cooling-off period at elections – purportedly for us to become rational enough again after our temporary madness so that we will vote the PAP – I wonder why the government cannot observe a moratarium when:

1. it is legally provided for; and,

2. for them to cool off from their own madness – let’s have a full society-wide debate and look at the issue rationally during the period of the moratarium.

Yes, I support your call.

102) Arthur

It depend on how you see the world…some people just blame others for their own misfortune…and seldom accept the fact that they are at fault too…it takes 2 hands to clap, so if the abuser doesn’t provide the second hand, how will the clap occur?

And do read, I think people here never absolve D.T from any responsibilities, it is simply your assumption based on your perception…but what people here wants to say to those who totally blame it on D.T is that the D.A is pretty much at fault…

People will go….the blah blah take drugs because of them…hello…did they use a knife to force them to take drugs? stuff it down their throat..threaten them….or were the abuser tempted? and make the wrong choice….both are at fault…

if you are executing someone who really traffics a crazy amount of drugs, well understandable, i won’t even whine about it…

To Arthur on December 4th, 2009 1.41 am:

Re: “It is probably only in TOC where you can find outrageously irrational people blaming drug addicts for their own situation, but spare the drug traffickers from any responsibilities for their criminal intent…Gosh…what kind of world are we living in now?”

We live in a world that understands that the problems faced by those allegedly ruined by drug traffickers did not begin when people like Vui Kong passed the drugs to them; they were already predisposed to drug addiction before they knew Vui Kong existed.

I ask for help for them as well.

But I ask for Vui Kong to only be meted out the punishment that is proportional to his crime; I’m not exonerating him from his crime.

@102 Arthur: u r not getting the point of this debate, and the kind of dialogue U r engaging in is limiting and regressive: we, or at least most of us r trying to address a situation that is obviously troubling to many of us here, and i think we are trying to expand the horizons of our understanding that encompasses issues such as human & sovereign rights, state power, system & meanings of justice etc – which are not obvious to U.

Hi Robox,

Totally agree with you. From the article content, Yong Vui Kong is certainly a victim. As in all drug cases, the courts can’t simply sentence the ‘victim’ guilty until proven otherwise.

From our legal perspectives, the law actually punishes victims ‘innocently’ if and when insufficient ‘evidence’ is produced in courts.

I’m keeping vigil for this young chap, given his family background, and yes, he deserve a second chance and perhaps the authorities may consider sentencing him to life imprisonment instead and then extract info from him on who the drug syndicate is in order to mete out necessary action to the syndicate instead.

This is LKY’s First World, where laws are “what I write on a piece of paper” (Saddam Hussein).

All the glitter of skyscrapers does not make a country a first world. You can be all dressed up to impress but the game is up when nothing useful comes out of you. Spore is all dressed but nowhere to go. Correction, all dressed but heading to the rubbish dump. Any joy in this?

Arthur on December 4th, 2009 1.41 am said this:

Re: “It is probably only in TOC where you can find outrageously irrational people blaming drug addicts for their own situation…”

I suspect that by “irrational”, he only means “emotional”, and this is as good a time as any to address this typically extremist rhetoric of the fascist types.

Yes, the issue of the death penalty *IS* an emotional one: Does anyone here know anyone else – including themselves – who wasn’t emotionally affected by the death of someone close to them?

The issue of the death penalty had only better be an emotional issue; we lose our humanity otherwise when we think of human life as a clinical issue that affects no one emotionally.

(As a side note, I would like to say at this point that I find the posts in this thread discussing this issue in economic terms to be extremely offensive; human life CANNOT be measured in terms of dollars and cents. If it can, then please tell us what you – or better yet, your mother – are worth in terms of dollars and cents. Or stop.)

But back to my point: How can we – Abolitionists – be accused of being irrational when we are presenting our arguments based on the evidence we have from studies already conducted, and while the pro-murder* people have nothing to counter us with? Is there NO rationality in academic studies? If there isn’t, then why are wasting all our resources on the seemingly meaningless pursuit of academic studies?

No, I suspect that Arthur, like so many other like-minded people, thinks that being *emotional* is the opposite of being *rational*. When have fascists ever stopped taking all the nice names to falsely describe themselves leaving us with nothing nice to call ourselves?

He’s dead wrong!

The opposite of “rational” is *IRRATIONAL*, and not *EMOTIONAL*; you can be rational AND emotional at the same time but you can never be simultaneously rational AND irrational.

Tell us where we have been IRRATIONAL. I would appreciate your contribution to this debate better.

Footnote:

* Anecdotally, I have consistently found a strong correlation between the pro-murder camp and the pro-lifers in the debate on abortion – go figure their internal self-contradiction; I wonder if declaring and proving one’s religion should be made mandatory in this debate to ascertain if there are any vested interests.

Can a minor be hanged for an offence of drug trafficing?

Yes I mean minor or “child” in layman term.

“Yong had received the death sentence last November, after being found guilty of trafficking 47g of heroin in June 2007. He was 19 years old at the time of arrest.”

Note that in Singapore you are only considered an adult at age “21″…thus only at age 21 then you are allowed to vote, allowed to buy HDB flats, allow to start for free “erection”.

Can someone out there tell lawyer Ravi that Yong was still a “minor” in Singapore context and thus cannot be hanged. If Singapore hangs Yong it is like imaginging hanging a 8 year old boy who smuggles drugs.

Singapore likes to use law to their advantage, they would say in Canada 18 years old is considered as an adult but then they should use the law on the level playing field as Canada do not hang or excecute drug offenders.

In LKY’s first world, so what if the AG hangs a minor? So what? I would go to the extent of saying so what if he hangs an innocent minor? Who is going to go after him? Who?

lobo76

You know what’s really sad reading your comments?

The views I, and many have presented are based on the findings of many people who have looked deeply into the whole drug situation and concluded that the death penalty is hardly an effective deterrent.

Can anything ever be interpreted in different ways? Unfortunately, yes, if you choose to. If you choose to pick at straws, then so be it.

I tend to stop debating after some time when it starts appearing ridiculous.

What’s truly sad though, is how it all seems like a fun little game to you, all the smart nudges, ‘heh-hehs” and “LOLs”. It seems, like one reader points out – so detached isn’t it?

Nevermind that it’s the sanctity of life we’re talking about.

(But then, I guess we’re expecting too much from someone who believes that terminating the life of a criminal is equivalent to showing compassion to the families of the victims of his crime.)

It is tragic enough that there are many people who are caught in this web and cycle of the drug trade. Ask yourself if we need to callously add another name to the cast of this tragedy.

Hi guys, just a bit of info about the law.

The age “divisions” were drawn in England (our ex colonial master) i think 200-300 years before, and it’s still generally accepted around the world today.

Anyone below the age of 16 is considered a child. You are subject to a lower standard of understanding, and in an old English case, a 15 year old girl was held not liable for poking her friend’s eye out with a ruler. (Mullins v Richards)

Anyone between the ages of 17 to 21 is considered to be of the “age of discretion”. Meaning you are held to the standard of a grown-up, BUT u don’t have the rights and privileges of an adult yet. Americans have this joke that between 17 to 21, you’re a “kidult”. The rights of a kid but the responsibility of an adult.

The law has to draw the line somewhere. For drugs, 15.00 grams is the line. The closer you are to the line, the more unfair it is. The most deserving person to hang will be the one with 14.99g and the least deserving to hang would be the one with 15.00g on the dot.

In the case of VuiKong, it might “seem” unfair, but always bear in mind that the line was drawn independantly, with no particular case or criminal in mind. That means the line is objective and impartial.

The AG is eager to execute Yong so that the case is closed, job done, no more dealing with us lot. Why want to trouble himself for someone of no consequence to him, someone as insignificant as Yong? Rightly or wrongly the AG still gets his pay, and still remains AG. Why bother? – So what if the drug lord cons and tries again with the next mule? We will just execute the next mule. So what if some big stock gets through? Those who abuse the drugs deserve it isn’t it?

If you argue for the execution, you are helping the authorities to skive their jobs. The police don’t have to investigate, the AG don’t have further work, the prison has one less to feed, and the Govt has no enemy of the rich and powerful (drug lords). The latter are the ones who got away scot free because of our ‘lazy’ system but the worst is, the supply continues to find its way into the country through successful mules or non-decoys.

Do you think the authorities really care? The execution is but a show that job is done. It achieves nothing.

112) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on December 4th, 2009 6.11 am
I tend to stop debating after some time when it starts appearing ridiculous.

I tend to get such excuses when I ask for things people simply can’t give good replies to.

100) Yamamoto on December 4th, 2009 1.32 am
but what if, the abuser influence and get other people hooked on drugs too? of course the magnitude is smaller and lesser…..but still….focusing on one and accidentally forgetting another aspect it just typical of us all…everything is too subjective aye?

Not really. It’s common to assume ‘all things being equal’ when making such equations, no? your ‘focusing on one’ is just an attempt to conflate things until you get your way.

does selling in a place with death penalty that regulates supply with constant demand, results in better profit…compared to a place whereby supply is not so regulated with constant demand… and of course after that, we have to look at the economy of scale.

I am a bit lost. Exactly what scenario you trying to convey?

How does one have a death penalty and then have regulated supply? My assumption of the ‘regulation of supply’ is to the drug abuser only. Correct me if I am wrong.

So the state gives death penalty, which likely means they are not likely to regulate the drug. Hence the regulation of the drugs can only be from drug lords. Do they really regulate supply? With a constant demand line, the more the supply the more profits they get…. why would they want less profits?

WRONG. With regards to your questions, they were the same questions you keep throwing over and over again despite repeated efforts made by many people to present facts and figures, here, and in previous articles.

There are many good articles Alex Au has written on his blog too, and I can see that you wouldn’t be a stranger to them if you can take his articles out of context to begin with.

What do we get from you in return? “That’s not good enough, that’s not good enough, that’s not good enough…” And you ask for the improbable – to ask drug mules on a scale of 1-5?!!!!!

At the end of the day, it is clear that you are unpersuadable. Which, is all fine and dandy.

But please do not add insult to matters of life and death with your clever quotes and flippancy.

The topic deserves better than that.

96) Petrus on December 4th, 2009 12.34 am
Goodness, just how did we actually make a criminal like Yong a angel, to that state of even claiming innocence on his behalf (and he entering heaven’s gate, common…)

My hypothesis is that pple are so anti govt here (which I am also one by the way) that any calls by anyone with the proper ‘excuse’ can get anyone to support them when it is a position that is in opposition to the govt. Some may truly agree, but there are likely some who don’t think, and simply go with the flow since it is a direction they want to go anyway.

117) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on December 4th, 2009 9.39 am

You realised it is you what who brought up that it is always myriad of factors that determine anything and everything. The ‘“That’s not good enough, that’s not good enough, that’s not good enough…” is exactly that.

Alex Au does write good articles but like all humans he is not perfect. To quote one person as a source of evidence seems to show that you only wished to pick up views from those who agree with you.

The only ‘evidence’ in this or the other threads is by Tan Cheng Hua but it is not about whether death penalty is effective, but that our application of the death penalty is governed by a flawed process.

If we can agree that there are many things that determine the drug rate, do you not suppose that a life is too important a thing to lose over a punitive measure that hasn’t been proven to work?

Look at the stats you happily show me again. I do believe it is very clear that it shows nations with death penalty do not necessarily have lower drug rates.

At the very most, as with many instances of debates, you can only insist that the stats swing both ways.

Which begets the question – should we exercise the choice to take lives over something inconclusive?

120) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on December 4th, 2009 10.02 am

What is conclusive, is that according to the last stats that were made available, we had one of the lowest drug abuse rates. Probably the only thing we both agree on thus far. Now, this (drug abuse rate) is something that has the potential to affect a lot of people’s lives.

Now, from my perspective, your evidence has been inconclusive so far. Remember that is was you who brought up the fact that corrrelation is no proof. Hence the lack of correlation would mean the same thing, especially with so many factors (something also brought up by you) in play.

So why would I want to change the status quo of something that has such a big repercussion on a lot of lives based on inconclusive evidence?

I think it’s just not the place of the state to kill anyone. Especially when there’s no evidence of the effectiveness of capital punishment. I think if you support the death penalty the burden of proof should be on you to show that it is indeed “better” for the state to kill these people.

So far it’s either conjecture or inconclusive statistics, and seriously, if this is good enough for you to send someone to the gallows, I pity you.

116) lobo76

Lobo, that can be said of you, can’t it?…focusing on your point and ignoring others, assuming that everything is equal is just another way to make sure that you get your way? conflating the issue aren’t you? mmm…seems like it…I try not to assume that everything is equal, since we are living in the real world, instead trying to see whether there is the other side to the coin… Mmm….guess what Joshua say is right aye….Joshua, give lobo the hug campaign man…

What i am trying to say is, with death penalty aka high entry barrier, supplies will be low/regulated since it is harder to bring in…and what happens when supplies is low with demand?

“With a constant demand line, the more the supply the more profits they get…. why would they want less profits? ”

see, here we go again Lobo. With a readily available supply and constant demand, yes the profit will be constant, which is good for them, what they want…however, as usual, it is subjective and our dear lobonator seems to ask one side that suits him, but not the other…now, the question will be, why they won’t want a bigger profit when it is staring them in the eye. in a place, whereby the supplies is low, payoff is huge at the expense of risk, this druglords will also want to reap a huge profit, since losing that heroin and mule doesn’t hurt them, and the return if it is successful is too appealing to turn a blind eye…

And Zefly, good to see you again

Lobo76, let me guess what Joshua’s reply will be…let’s see

Since it is inconclusive according to Joshua “I do believe it is very clear that it shows nations with death penalty do not necessarily have lower drug rates.”

“Now, this (drug abuse rate) is something that has the potential to affect a lot of people’s lives. ”

Based on both perception, either’s evidence has been inconclusive…and this will result in another cycle of the same question ask in a different way:

“Which begets the question – should we exercise the choice to take lives over something inconclusive? ”

or

“Which begets the question – should we exercise the choice to take lives over something inconclusive? ”

and here we go again

“So why would I want to change the status quo of something that has such a big repercussion on a lot of lives based on inconclusive evidence? ”

Then we’re looking at irreversibility of situations.

If you look at life as the capacity of a person to have self awareness, to be breathing, (nevermind the quality of life for the moment) – every person that has tasted drugs has the capacity to change. A second chance.

Yes, you may even argue that there are some cases where people do die when they consume drugs for the first time, but that is very rare. At any case, in any argument, in any stats, there is always a point, an exception you can pick at, and I hope you do us the favor by not going there.

So let’s agree that there is never a guarantee of death with drug abusers.

But a death sentence is a guarantee.

Lives RUINED and lives LOST are very different.

Now let’s look at the ‘eye-for-an-eye’ form of justice we love to have.

In an ‘eye for an eye’ system, if A kills B, then A gets the death sentence.

In ANY case of DIRECT death via drugs. Can it ever been shown who the drugs come from?

If it can’t, then the closest thing an ‘eye for an eye’ justice system can do, is to ‘ruin’ the drug mule’s life. By putting him away, making him lose his physical freedom. How long will depend on how much drugs he’s carrying.

And EVEN if you want to go into some mathematical formula – how do we calculate how the felon should pay for the potential lives ruined, let’s not forget even if he carries with him enough drugs that can POTENTIALLY ruin 100 lives.

That’s also 100 lives that can be potentially rehabiliated.

I dunno what calculator you use, but it doesn’t add up to justify one life lost forever.

Yamamoto…

wahahahahahah! Sorry i din give you the pleasure of proving you right.

126) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang)

Damn, but it is ok…it has been some time Zefly…I think what lobo wants is just a huggggg

the calculation is very simple, differentiate heroin with no respect to human life and you get 15g.

Yamamoto,

I think what he needs is to win.

To be fair, I don’t really mind. He’s not the person I’m trying to convince.

123) Yamamoto on December 4th, 2009 10.23 am
What i am trying to say is, with death penalty aka high entry barrier, supplies will be low/regulated since it is harder to bring in…and what happens when supplies is low with demand?

Suppliers can charge a high price, which (all things being equal) would mean extraordinary profits.

However, as I have mentioned, the only conclusive part thus far is that drug rate in Singapore is low. So while your theory is correct, reality has for some inconclusive reason, proven that it isn’t. For if is, we should be seeing a horde of mules coming to die.

On the other hand, if my theory of (all things being equal) no death penalty equal higher drug trafficking also holds true, reality has yet to disprove it.

So there you have it
- Your theory true + reality false = conclusion: theory wrong.
- (if) my theory true + reality unknown = conclusion unknown. Potential ‘damage’ of theory being right is big. So why should I take the risk?

125) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on December 4th, 2009 10.38 am
Then we’re looking at irreversibility of situations.

No.. that’s what you (and some others) are looking at, not me. From the irreversibly point of view, you are correct.

The analogy i can come up with may be not the best but anyway…
A general sends his army to fight. Statistically, it is nigh impossible not to have casualties (which is as you said, irreversible). Does the general then not fight?
(assumption: enemy is evil and all diplomatic options has been exhausted)

Yes, you may even argue that there are some cases where people do die when they consume drugs for the first time, but that is very rare.

no need. I can point out that drug addicts may commit crimes to get money for their next fix. Crimes which may result in the lost of other lives (robbery, murder, etc). Crimes that would perpetuate the drug cycle (they become mules themselves), eventually resulting in other people’s death.

if the drug trade increase due to lack of deterrence, it seems impossible that someone will not die… which as you said, is pretty irreversible.

Lives RUINED and lives LOST are very different.

Personally, I view them as equal. If living is suffering then death is preferable. I hold more value on Lives Ruined than you, it seems.

If it can’t, then the closest thing an ‘eye for an eye’ justice system can do, is to ‘ruin’ the drug mule’s life. By putting him away, making him lose his physical freedom. How long will depend on how much drugs he’s carrying.

That would mean ignoring the ‘message’ part to other mules. Unfortunately, I do not think lives should be consider in isolation.

129) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on December 4th, 2009 11.25 am
I think what he needs is to win.

To be honest, I have ‘lost’ before on forums, and I have no issues admitting to the ‘winner’ that he was right. However, if that is the way you need to convince yourself to I am not reasonable so as to reassure yourself that your evidence is conclusive ….

“Personally, I view them as equal. If living is suffering then death is preferable. I hold more value on Lives Ruined than you, it seems.”

And this where I can say there is no need to debate anymore, if that’s your premise.

As mentioned, it is always sad when lives are ruined. Whenever there is suffering.

But the examples of many people past and present have shown, as long as there is life, there is a chance. To get beyond the suffering.

We keep seeing examples of people truimphing over personal tragedies. Learning from past mistakes. Ex drug mules becoming counsellors, lending spiritual support to others in need.

Even a person who has repented but serving life imprisonment can do a lot of good for his fellow inmates.

People who recognize that due to fate or past actions, you may not be able to help being where you are, but you are able to determine your reaction to it.

You are able to get a second chance to redefine the meaning of your life.

Even the most incorrigible person can change.

Taking his life takes that away.

Lobo,

“Suppliers can charge a high price, which (all things being equal) would mean extraordinary profits.”

That is assuming that the drug trade is a monopoly…however, in such a lucrative market which may yield high profit and supplies can be easily delivered, i guess those people want an equal share of the pie, and when that happens, you have competition that may drive prices down…

“So while your theory is correct, reality has for some inconclusive reason, proven that it isn’t. ”

No Lobo, reality has not proven it either way. How do you know, you don’t…my favorite quote from you. Why is this so, that is simply because you assume that in the ideal reality, if drug lords send more supplies this way, it will equate to more mules getting the noose. However, that is an assumption, which doesn’t prove me right or wrong. The assumption is based on your perception that more people get caught and punish, then people who manage to get away….but who are we to know….does the drug lords publish an annual report of how many mules go through successfully vis-a-vis unsuccessfully.

So here it goes again….your reality disprove others’ theories, while it doesn’t disprove your theory…what an ideal state…but it occurs for me too

A quote from you

- Your theory true + reality false = conclusion: theory wrong: Actually reality is unknown, just that dear Lobo assume that it is false, and so he say it is false thus he states theory is wrong. But Lobo, since you say reality is false, are there any proves? Since you like to use this phrase, let me return it to you: How do you know? You don’t”

- (if) my theory true + reality unknown = conclusion unknown. Potential ‘damage’ of theory being right is big. So why should I take the risk?

Why should you take the risk? Well Lobo, since reality is unknown, that means it can go either way…and humans just love to think that their ideal reality occur, but how often does that occur? and so what if the potential is high, hello, the worse thing can happen at the worse time at the worse possible place…So why aren’t you taking the risk? well, cos to some people, taking drastic action to prevent an unknown/unwanted scenario from happening is worth the price, i guess…aka minority report style? Of course, been proactive is better, but been too proactive may lead to mistakes that can never be restore, since i think a broken neck can never be join back

So either way, both sides are speculation…and Lobo, such an ideal world that we exist in ain’t it…everything can be sum up in your formula, but please…take into account variable change… in this world, when are all things being equal?

129) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang)

Very true, let him win…since I am only playing a devil’s advocate…and sometimes you win by not winning right? ironical, yes, but true…

And i totally agree with 132nd post. Live ruins can be save, though hard it may be. Live lost, hell i am not a death god, so once gone is gone…If the sinners is repentant, he may do society some good, while taking life away from him ensures that he can’t seek penance by contributing to the society…

however, in some cases, the death penalty has to be applied

Lobo,

“I tend to get such excuses when I ask for things people simply can’t give good replies to. ”

To be truthful, in other’s perception, including myself, Joshua has given a very good and logical replies…and I have follow his post for quite some time too…and Joshua is someone who agrees to disagree, and I admire him since he ends off heated debate in a nice manner, the huggggz campaign

However, that’s your own perception that others’ replies aren’t good…he gave you a good reply, but since it is different from your view, of course you reject it as ain’t good…and maybe only those who align themselves with your perception are considered good

and dear Joshua knows better and to stop debating after some time when it starts appearing ridiculous. Since the other side will only agree to his view and reject all else…A one way traffic aye?

I can’t even understand how life can be reduced to something that’s expendable to ’send a message’ to other drug mules.

In certain aspects of the things I do, I come across a lot of people who really makes you think – why the hell did you allow yourself to get cheated!!! you should have known waaaat…

But the consistency of such instances, and matching with their backgrounds – poverty, low education – makes you realize that what we commonly associate with rationality – the ability to balance pros and cons, risks, doing due dillgence before embarking on a course of action is remarkably different with people that come from much less less fortunate backgrounds.

In some cases, even if the message seem abundantly clear – and this is assuming the message reaches them to begin with – they do not necessarily ‘get it’.

The whole ’sending a message as deterrant’ rationale crumbles when you realize that the messenger – that is, the law – is not really that active in making sure the recepients get the message until it is too late.

As with many cases, it seems the poor really get the wrong end of the stick.

The person who needs a hug the most isn’t even lobo.

Think about it. A person on death row isn’t even allowed to come into physical contact with loved ones.

And for god’s sake, if you really HAVE to kill someone, does it have to be by hanging? Even dogs that need to be put down get a more humane send off.

If we REALLY want to use death sentence as a deterrent message, I suggest we show videos of actual hangings on huge plasma TV screens at all custom checkpoints. And loop it 24/7. That way, EVERYONE who comes will get the message. Instantaneously.

Afterall we already have those ugly photos on the consequence of smoking on cigarette packs.

Oh wait. But that affects tourism…

133) Yamamoto on December 4th, 2009 1.02 pm
does the drug lords publish an annual report of how many mules go through successfully vis-a-vis unsuccessfully.

No. but the govt did publish a report on the number of abusers which is low. If the mules didn’t get caught, we’d have a high number of abusers… which we don’t. i.e nobody bothered to send huge number of mules or drug, despite you saying that it is a lucrative market.

since reality is unknown, that means it can go either way…

I agree. My point was that if it can go either way, will you choose the way where you have more to lose?

135) Yamamoto on December 4th, 2009 1.14 pm

well, to sum up this post… it’s (not trying to be rude) 废话

People naturally see what they agree with to be ‘good and logical’. Since you agree with his view, naturally his posts are such. Do you ever agree with views that are ‘bad and illogical’?

in other’s perception, including myself
However, that’s your own perception that others’ replies aren’t good

One of the things I always try to avoid doing is to pretend to know what others are thinking. So while you are right in that it is my own perception (could be classified as 废话 for unless I am someone’s secretary, which would i be doing the posting myself?) the other’s replies aren’t good, I don’t see how you can claim to know other people’s perception.

132) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on December 4th, 2009 12.31 pm
And this where I can say there is no need to debate anymore, if that’s your premise.

The ‘debate’ for me, wasn’t really to win. It’s simply to show that there are different views out there (one of which is mine). Especially when people start claiming themselves to be the ’silent majority’ without any basis.

We keep seeing examples of people truimphing over personal tragedies. Learning from past mistakes. Ex drug mules becoming counsellors, lending spiritual support to others in need.

Are you perhaps referring to ex drug abusers and not mules?

I have only seen one post giving credit to Justice Woo Boh Li by 51) FDFB on December 3rd, 2009 12.01 pm. Hence, I would like to add the following:

His (Justice Woo) ability to reconsider alternative views actually gave me some hope in Singapore judiciary system in terms of its’ capacity for mercy; i.e. slow things down a bit, listen to alternate views, and not rush into making a decision or just follow the book. It’s a healthy sign I would say that there are sane people in there; then just robots blindly following the book (i.e. aren’t we being taught that we need to be kind to others – look at the bible).

To 58) Retribution on December 3rd, 2009 1.25 pm

I wouldn’t claim that I understand your plight; but there is other punishment beside killing a person in my opinion.

Let me illustrate my views – could be flawed, but I welcome comments.

For example, does the old law of cutting one hand when caught in a theft act cruel? Do you feel the brutality of such an act? So, who’s to judge that the theft does not deserve the cutting off of a hand or it’s effectiveness? Should the effectiveness of such an act be the sole judgment for passing such a law?

I personally, felt that cutting off one’s hand due to an act of theft is brutal. Why? The main reason I can think of is due to the fact that such crime rate has not reached an alarming rate/uncontrollable state and together with the maturity of the people to understand the brutality and consequence of such an act has resulted in the abolishment of such practice in today’s world.

Now, let’s think about drug trafficking. Does a drug mule, 19 years of age when the crime is committed, deserve a death sentence?

This is not an easy answer, nor should we rush to come to a conclusion. But personally speaking, there are other punishment other than death, and could be worst than death. However, death is irreversible, and if human have the capacity for humanity, shouldn’t we treasure life first then embrace death only when it’s absolutely necessary? Beside death sentence, is 30, 40, 50 years life imprisonment any lighter and not reach the same purpose in this case?

Nonetheless, cruelty and justice is a fine line; and you really need to look into each case, just like what Judge Woo has done. A broad stroke may not be the right solution in solving problem. Human capacity to “humanity” and “cruelty” has to apply in the right “context”.

Put it simply, there is “a time to kill”. But does this 19 year old guy deserve one?

For “58) Retribution” again, while you advocate retribution, ask yourself frankly; if the judge dished a 30, 40, 50 years imprisonment for a drug mule, wouldn’t this not be able to appease your anger/grief, other than death?

If death is your only answer, here is the ultimate test, are you at the same time, be able to look into the eye of Yong’s mother and tell her that her son deserve death and death only, in order for justice to be served?

I do not claim to the answer, however, you are the victim of drug trafficking, only you are in the appropriate position to answer the questions, and only Yong’s mother has the right to rebut your reply in this case.

I look forward for your views.

PS: What I would like to point out is that while our law has the ability to judge and kill; does it, at the same time, able to demonstrate that it has the capacity for mercy?

aren’t drug mules people too? You mean, there is something so special about them that they should be exempt from second chances?

139) lobo76

“No. but the govt did publish a report on the number of abusers which is low.”

Oh right, and since they publish that figures, it is the absolute truth? and reality? The figures only involves those in the light, but what about those in the dark? So just because the dear gahmen publish a figure, you will treat it as reality…great…i guess there are few abusers who are doing so in secrets right? all the drug abuser will come out and do a roll call…

“which we don’t. i.e nobody bothered to send huge number of mules or drug, despite you saying that it is a lucrative market. ”

How do you know that Lobo? you don’t right? do you go to the custom and try to keep track of who get through and who doesn’t? those who are caught became a statistic, while those who got through is a huge ?. Perhaps your assumption is based on high percentage of drug traffickers are caught, but sadly, without the other figure, we won’t know what came in at all. so another assumption. Just the opposite of mine…just because they are not caught, doesn’t mean there are none…and as for the figures of drug abuser, read the statement above.

“I agree. My point was that if it can go either way, will you choose the way where you have more to lose? ”

Well, ask the strategist, not me. But ain’t it surprising that some strategist are willing to lose more, in order to gain in another way? Moreover, it has not been proven either way, that death sentence results in lower DA rate, so taking a drastic action that involves a human life seems…too much…..but strangely, if these mules are sentence to concentration camp/hard labour etc, somehow I won’t feel that it is too much… and those are worse then death…

136) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on December 4th, 2009 1.19 pm
The whole ’sending a message as deterrant’ rationale crumbles when you realize that the messenger – that is, the law – is not really that active in making sure the recepients get the message until it is too late.

Not to be a cynic, but the human rights activists and pple like you are doing a damn fine job at the moment. With the law providing ups and downs (stay of execution and the challenging of that by the dpp) to generate more ‘excitement’ from you guys, I can’t really say it isn’t doing it’s best either.

And for god’s sake, if you really HAVE to kill someone, does it have to be by hanging? Even dogs that need to be put down get a more humane send off.

I have no knowledge of this…but I seem to recall some issues with the US’s way of lethal injection, whereas I haven’t read anything about hanging.

I want to answer your post on 138, but you sort of answered it yourself at the end…Frankly, I don’t mind. But with some much violence (worse than hanging) already on TV and stuff, what kind of effect do you think it will have?

“And for god’s sake, if you really HAVE to kill someone, does it have to be by hanging? Even dogs that need to be put down get a more humane send off. ”

Joshua, I don’t think there is a humane way of implementing the death sentence…lethal injection? Hanging is terrible, but at least in the modern world, there is no hang, drawn and quartered.

144) Yamamoto on December 4th, 2009 2.33 pm
So just because the dear gahmen publish a figure, you will treat it as reality…

no. if you were a regular of TOC, you won’t have assumed that.
but unless YOU are going to do a study, it is the only figure we have to work with. By the way, the UN sort of endorsed it coz well… they published it.

How do you know that Lobo? you don’t right?………

by the way…you are getting incoherent. The only impression I got from that jumble was that YOU know a lot. well, kindly enlighten us then.

But ain’t it surprising that some strategist are willing to lose more, in order to gain in another way?

No, but only if the other way has greater value. Something along the lines of loss leaders. i.e products that are priced below cost or very cheaply to attract crowds. In the end the shop earns greater value by having sales of other products.

So… what is this ‘another way’ that benefits Singapore citizens?

149) lobo76 on December 4th, 2009 2.52 pm

Well, go and check up, see how regular my posting is…but of course, that’s a waste of time. And the truth is, whatever figures they publish must always be taken with a giant pinch of salt?

“by the way…you are getting incoherent. The only impression I got from that jumble was that YOU know a lot. well, kindly enlighten us then.”

wrong Lobo76, I don’t know alot. So don’t put words into my mouth Just that in your previous post, that’s like your favorite catchphrase, and i decide to use it too…just to let you have a feel. Why do you think I keep using it even though it is so rude. Since you assume you know while others don’t. And for the matter of fact, look at above posting where I state that what i says are assumption, which means I don’t know the accurate info, which is way different from some people who think that their assumptions are correct and build on it.

“So… what is this ‘another way’ that benefits Singapore citizens? ”

Wuth regards to improving the current status quo Mr Lobo, Hey Lobo, I wasn’t thinking of improving it, but just maintain it at least… at least reduce the extent whereby the death penalty is carried out. Look at the Nigerian or those unknowing carriers. With regards to the death penalty, perhaps other form of severe punishment will be good…who wants to totally lose their freedom and stare at four walls? although staring at death is a good deterrence…

“I want to answer your post on 138, but you sort of answered it yourself at the end…Frankly, I don’t mind. But with some much violence (worse than hanging) already on TV and stuff, what kind of effect do you think it will have? ”

I guess you completely fail to grasp the irony.

It is your stand that deterrence is an effective measure.

We have pointed out that even, going with your wobbly logic and arguments, at most it is inconclusive.

The video example, is really to show how the people who use deterrence as justification do not really care about getting the message of deterrence across. You don’t ‘mind’ having videos of hanging, but worry about the ‘effect’ it will have.

“ooo! look we have enough violence on TV, showing real life violence would be bad for our kids, our reputation etc etc..’

And the very best thing is – despite all the harping on the lives of abusers, so many things seem to supercede the sanctity of life.

It seems that ‘effect’ of showing hanging videos at customs (which is suggested in sarcasm by the way) is even more important than that ONE drug mule – who may not have known about the draconian punishment – would be deterred, and save himself.

Maybe it’s a good thing you are using a nick. I can’t imagine how the people who know you may think about you after what’s been said.

We’re done talking.

“Joshua, I don’t think there is a humane way of implementing the death sentence…lethal injection? Hanging is terrible, but at least in the modern world, there is no hang, drawn and quartered. ”

Yamamoto,

the fundemental issue here is, if the rationale for dealth penalty is such that it is a deterrance, of what use is a deterrance if the actual ‘death’ and it’s bloody brutal, mostly hush-hush? Reduced to a headlines the next day?

I mean, hell, not that I am for it, but they used to conduct public executions in the past as means to ‘deter’ people from crime.

What do we have here? Hell, we are even shy to release actual facts and figures to show how many people were hung each year!

So what ‘deterence’ is it, you tell me. Oooooo, but it will scare the children if we make it too graphic…. um yah, and we have pictures of dead fetuses on cigarette packs.

We kill people. And yet we sanitize it all the time. It’s like one of those Pixar cartoons where you KNOW the bad guy dies, – and it’s usually a very terrible death – but it is only ’suggested’.

This place is truly a Disneyland with Dealth Penalty.

148) Yamamoto on December 4th, 2009 3.12 pm
Well, go and check up, see how regular my posting is…but of course, that’s a waste of time. And the truth is, whatever figures they publish must always be taken with a giant pinch of salt?

of course. That’s the point I was trying to convey about being a regular of TOC. Quite a number of articles here criticizes figures published by the govt. The best ones were by Leong. i.e People here ALREADY tend to take the figures with a pinch of salt. To suggest otherwise hints at you being a not regular.

In any case, do you know why I consider him to be the best? coz he backs up his criticisms with countering stats published by the govt themselves or from somewhere who are considered reliable. In contrast, all I see you doing is questioning assumptions and saying that everyone don’t know everything (which while true, accomplishes nothing).

Fact is the figures for drug rate is the only one available. Unless you have other stats, it is the only one we can based our arguments upon.

I don’t know alot. So don’t put words into my mouth

I didn’t. I was deliberately careful in saying that it was my IMPRESSION that it was so. not that it IS so. Notice the difference?

Wuth regards to improving the current status quo Mr Lobo, Hey Lobo, I wasn’t thinking of improving it, but just maintain it at least…

But we ALL don’t know anything (as you have claimed).
So how are you maintaining something by changing something else? It’s not like you have proven by doing nothing (no change to death penalty), we would experience a deterioration of the situation. In fact, the usual way to maintain something is to change nothing. Which is sort of my position.

He’s too young to die..and he didn’t kill anyone. Let him go. If Ming Yi and TT Durai can be given second leases in life, why not Vui Yong?

149) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on December 4th, 2009 3.32 pm
You don’t ‘mind’ having videos of hanging, but worry about the ‘effect’ it will have.

You are probably be reading it wrong or I wasn’t clear enough.

I was NOT worried about the effect, it’s more like I am worried about the LACK of effect that it will have (courtesy to the amount of violence we already have on TV). i.e Visual cues don’t cut it anymore.

well… maybe it will for the desperate who may not have access to TV. Then you’d have to contend with how you are going to not let the children see it though.

but it will scare the children if we make it too graphic…. um yah, and we have pictures of dead fetuses on cigarette packs.

Please tell me you understand the difference between a TV where everyone can see, and a printed graphic on a box that only a person who have bought it can see clearly (very hard to see from afar if it is on the shelf).

The deterrence effect will simply have to come from mainstream newspapers of their respective countries when they carry the news, hopefully BEFORE they take on the ‘job’. As it is, I would imagine (though I really don’t know) we are already quite well known for it.

If they are already at our doorstep (customs), I do not think just having a TV will make them have a change of heart.

At the very least, I remember that on planes they clearly say that Drug is a death penalty before you alight.

Here are some more stats. Of course, take it with a pinch of salt.. though I shouldn’t have to tell you this. Personally, I only look at the figures, and skipped the commentary.

http://www.cnb.gov.sg/medialibrary/index.asp

The one in 2006 is the best as it has plotted a line graph over the years. The 2007 reports onwards only compared with previous year.

If according to the UN published report that we were ‘good’ in 2001, then going by the chart, it seems we have improved.

Lobo,

From your last two posts, it sends a clear message that scholars (Spore scholars) should never be in govt.

In post 154, what language or languages is the warning in plane delivered in? Changi is an international airport, we have all nationalities coming including Polish who don’t speak a word of English, Malay, Mandarin or Tamil. I know Yong is not a Polish but I also cannot assume that a Chinese Malaysian can understand all those languages because he could be illiterate and only comprehends dialects. What about a deaf person?

In post 155, if figures are all you look at, go tell all the police not record drug related crimes in SG and tell the doctors to find other reasons for death due to drug abuse.

You seem to be reduced to a ROBOT! Grow a brain and a heart!

All I have is a simple question, if the authorities are so bent on keeping singapore safe from drugs, they are willing execute young men, should not the police have put some effort and used the mule to go undercover, to trap the main supplier?
If you seriously want to stop drugs, you can’t just cut off a finger, you need to chop off the head!
1year has gone by and they have not caught the headman
By killing their best lead the cops have effectively helped the drug dealer to deal another day.
so who is a bigger contributer to drug trafficking-the mule or the authorities? no wonder I always feel confused living on this Island.

156) No Scholar on December 4th, 2009 5.46 pm

Well, I have never been on a plane that is of polish origin so I can’t say what language they would broadcast in. Frankly I would be surprised if they don’t know any English because they have to fill in a red/white immigration form (like those we have to fill when we go malaysia) which I think is in English.

… and btw, what things in my post led you to conclude that I am a scholar, if that is indeed what you are implying?

In post 155, if figures are all you look at, go tell all the police not record drug related crimes in SG and tell the doctors to find other reasons for death due to drug abuse.

Well, I hate to embarrass you… but you need to see the report before you comment. It’s the number of drug abuse (people who take drugs) case, not drug related crimes…..While I know police don’t record some ‘crimes’ especially when it doesn’t involve a civil servant, I failed to see what relevance it has to that figure.

have skimmed through the charts (neccessary so that I ‘read’ as little as the text as poosible), I also do not see the number of deaths from drug abuse, only the breakdown of how many percent consume what type of drug.

Basically, I think you are the robot which is rehashing some sentence/para, and just replacing some of the terms.

157) dazed and confused on December 4th, 2009 8.10 pm
All I have is a simple question, if the authorities are so bent on keeping singapore safe from drugs, they are willing execute young men, should not the police have put some effort and used the mule to go undercover, to trap the main supplier?

I tot it has been mentioned umpteen times…. the answer to your simple question is Jurisdiction. Mules by definition carry drugs from OUTSIDE the country into ours. i.e Supplier is OUTSIDE the country. So how to catch? Probably only Interpol have jurisdiction.

Lobo

What Polish plane are you talking about? I have been in an SIA flight next to a Polish who does not understand a word of English. She asked me to help her fill in her immigration form. She passed me a piece of paper containing all the necessary data, thats the address of residence etc.

Wow, thanks for not embarassing me. Didn’t know all drug abusers report to the authorities that they take drugs. I mean other than that how do the authorities know who or how many are abusing drugs? Now do you see why I pointed to the number of drug related crimes (convicted hence reported) or hospital records.

No, I did not think that you are a scholar. I just think that you behave like one (of Spore scholars).

here’s a starting point if you want to know about the effectiveness of drugs policy on the incidence of drug (ab)use:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/nov/07/bad-science-nott-drugs

i personally view the ending of someone’s life as pretty damn serious, and if the evidence of the effectiveness of the death penalty is inconclusive either way, then i put it to you that the only responsible and reasonable thing to do is to stop doing it until you know that it actually works.

“it is a tenet of evidence-based policy that if you discover a gap, you commission work to fill it.”

oh yeah, the link points to the same column in the guardian by ben goldacre as the one on the ‘TOC press muse – cynical studies’ column by spiegel, in case anyone’s wondering.

Let this matter send a chill down the spine and a message to the people. We have a system that desperately needs change. Otherwise we will have more “Yong Vui Kong’s” to be executed as decoys for the drug lords. Meanwhile the haul that successfully got through into the country continues to harm your loved ones.

This is a serious matter and it depends on every single one of you to do the right thing, not for Yong Vui Kong’s sake (if you do not want to) but for your love ones and fellow country men and women.

The authorities can extract important info from Yong. Who is the supplier? Where does he operate? Who else are involved? Use them to carry out investigations. If or when the supplier is captured, Yong Vui Kong is a key witness. How can they destroy forever this key witness?

151) lobo76

Great, I think the Detroit Big 3, ML, FM and gangs also have this mentality, don’t change when nothing seems to be wrong, and look where it brought them….

Likewise lobo, although DA/DT are relatively low right now, partly due to capital punishment…for the sake of been more humane, the death penalty could be change to a very heavy imprisonment penalty, for less severe case. And monitor for a short period. If the DA/DT rise up, then drastic action could be reinstall and that time round, nobody can say anything about the use of capital punishment as a deterrence….although i know, someone will say ” by the time it rise up, it will be too late” but at least a chance was given..

You want to deal with these cunning evil people (drug suppliers), you have to double-cross them. Give them back a taste of their own medicine. They use people like Yong to go against you, you use Yong to go against them. Otherwise what is there to stop them? If there is such action, suppliers might even turn down easily rewardable, simple traffickers because if caught, they will be hunted down. Let the suppliers gamble with their own lives. This will be a more effective deterrent.

150) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang)

I can’t find fault…deterrence need to be shown and let its impact be felt…

“So what ‘deterence’ is it, you tell me. Oooooo, but it will scare the children if we make it too graphic…. um yah, and we have pictures of dead fetuses on cigarette packs.”

Actually, isn’t deterrence meant to create fear…to warn a person off that something bad will happen if they try something funny? somehow, it will be good to let the children know that fear…and through that fear instilled, hopefully it will deter them from doing stupid stufff

So imagine if we have William Wallace style of public execution, now, that will surely serve as a deterrence message, right? And perhaps Lobo can suggest displaying the quartered remains, so that mules will have second thought about bringing that shipment…a barbaric, but should be effective way right?

however, does it work? hang drawn and quartered is a barbaric punishment meant for the highest treason act…and in fact were carried out publicly and remains were displayed at crossroad….but regicide still occur even though people know that they will really suffer a nasty death

“I can’t find fault…deterrence need to be shown”

- Of course, otherwise what is a deterrent?

No one here has yet asked a key question. Where is the drugs going to? Who is Yong meeting up with. Ok, it is difficult to track the supplier outside Spore but surely Yong is trafficking the drug to someone within Spore. Who is this? Obviously this person sells it on and s/he is as harmful if not more than Yong. Why is s/he let off or not pursued?

Why does the police not let Yong meet up with the recipient and nap him or her too? Quite obviously, the recipient is a known trader in Spore who peddles the drugs to locals, the end users. Shouldn’t our authorities track them down?

If Spore cannot work with overseas police to catch criminals, go learn a thing or two with US who is busy working with international network to stop terrorists.

Lobo, to be honest, I don’t accept however little our number of drug abusers are. One abuser and life destroyed is one too many. Lets do what is right and not what appears to be right by comparison.

He have a very hard yound life…Anything would happened to a fragile human being. Money is the main culprit. In this case innocent life are wasted, but let not forget that the main CULPRIT is still at large waiting for the next bait.
Let pray to GOD for the best. Amen.

Yamamoto,

I think the point I’m trying to make is… we make death penalty into law, and yet, despite the gravity of taking away one life, we don’t seem to be making the corresponding effort to really really make sure people get the message.

All we get are excuses.

That really punctures the whole ‘deterrence’ as a message angle, and show the double standards of the punishment system.

Wa Wa Wa.

I sell life destroying merchandise and I want to play up my “tragic” circumstances to hope I’d avoid doing the Irish tap dance now that I got caught

Hang the drug mule and be done with. At the least give him the dignity of a death to atone whatever little for all the lives he had ruined.

Pull the lever, we got more drug peddling scum on the list.

The argument here is an effective and justified penatly, without neglection for human right or value. Guilty? Yes of cos, but given the death sentence, does it effectively fufil your so called ‘Atonement’… the moment this life is sent to the gallows, there is no talk of atonement or hope for change, everything just ends there.

If atonement was a serious consideration, wouldn’t sparing him from death penatly and long-term imprisonment / rehab be more effective? At least there is a chance of him repenting and contributing to society in any way.

[...] Jaslyn Go’s Blog: To err is human; to forgive, divine – Yong Vui Kong is human too! – TOC: High Court grants rare stay of execution appeal – Rachel Zeng’s blog: Yong gets one week stay of execution – innersanctum: an open letter to [...]

[...] Kong’s case, see TOC’s report on the stay of execution granted by the High Court here: http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/12/high-court-grants-rare-stay-of-execution-appeal/. The Court of Appeal will be hearing Vui Kong’s appeal this coming Tuesday at 10 am. [1] [...]

[...] Find out more about Vui Kong’s case: http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/12/high-court-grants-rare-stay-of-execution-appeal/ [...]

164) Yamamoto on December 4th, 2009 9.17 pm
…the death penalty could be change to a very heavy imprisonment penalty, for less severe case. And monitor for a short period. If the DA/DT rise up,

You realised you are experimenting with people’s lives here?

lobo @175

If you care so much for peoples lives, what about the drug suppliers and the agents peddling them on the street? Do you not call for investigations on them? You should also be asking the authorities to spend on anti-drugs campaign instead of courtesy campaign, go into the schools and tell children about the destruction of drugs, better still make the govt include this in the curriculum. There are so many things the govt can do, not just executing mules.

One more thing, there should be prominent signs reminding immigrants of the drugs law and death sentence, at embarkation. The airport security should allow immigrants to declare the illegal drugs if they carry them to avoid the death sentence. Those who declare are spared but not allowed entry into Spore and banned, at the same time, they should be handed over back to their countries’ authorities to deal with them. Afterall, Spore is not interested to investigate further and cannot arrest anyone overseas, so what is the point of detaining them. The law should not be set up as a trap to execute people, it is there to safeguard drugs entering the country.

JayF @170

Yong Viu Kong was not caught SELLING the drugs. He was caught in posession of them. Who he is bringing the stuff to, we do not know. This 19 yr old is not a rich young man, he did not have the money to own the drugs for sales. Yes, he works or carries the drugs for someone. Who this someone is, we do not know. The authorities do not seem interested either.

For the potential harm he might have done in aiding the smuggling of the drugs, he should be given a jail sentence. Many of us take his background into consideration when arguing against his execution, I think it is not Yong himself who is using it to escape punishment.

The drug peddling scums make use of people like Yong to stake their lives. Yong was certainly easy target for them, and the drug law in SG is certainly easy loophole for the drug peddling scums. The scums themselves will never do the trafficking themselves and never get into trouble with this law.

The law is wrong, very wrong and needs to be changed. Notice I have not even argued for or against capital punishment yet.

JayF, I personally cannot bring myself to hate Yong, although I hate drug abuse. I have seen lives damaged by drugs but somehow there is something in Yong that I cannot bring myself to condemn him. I cannot explain it myself but there is something there shouting this boy deserve another chance. I have just wept (literally) when I read that he knelt down to his mum and bowed to her 3 times (by Rachel Zeng). My eyes are welling up again as I write. If a person has feelings, he has hope. It is a beautiful relationship between him and his mum which will be a good basis for him to start a new life after his jail sentence if he is given another chance. It is too cruel to take away this young life and from his mum, both of whom had never had it easy from Yong’s early days.

JafF, I am personally sad for you that you do not feel anything for a young human life.

First off I am against the death penalty for drug trafficking, when there is a good chance of rehabilitation and imprisonment is a far more apt punishment.

However the problem here is that Yong is a foreigner; I am not sure the Singaporean taxpayer should pay for his rehabilitation. I can imagine the hordes of foreigners over-flooding the local jails especially in land scarce Singapore.

If Singapore has extradition treaties with other countries, it could ship them back to their home country to serve out their sentence.

[...] has received a rare stay of execution because of legal technicalities connected to his right to appeal. His final plea will be held in [...]

176) Discern on December 6th, 2009 3.35 am
If you care so much for peoples lives, what about the drug suppliers and the agents peddling them on the street?

Suppliers already mentioned ad nauseum. They are OUTSIDE the country. Do you want us to invade another country? or maybe get our NS boys to Afghan to burn poppy fields?

Agents peddling on the streeting, I do not know since I am neither CNB nor there was much news. The only ‘news’ is on CNB website which may not be the most objective. Unfortunately, since it is the ONLY news I can find…

Anyway, go to the website yourself and decide for yourself if they are indeed doing nothing or too little.
http://www.cnb.gov.sg/Newsroom/index.asp?name=TmV3c3Jvb20gLSBPcGVyYXRpb25z&year=MjAwOQ&type=Q3VycmVudA&view=Q3VycmVudA

If you care so much for peoples lives,

I care for the quality of lives, not just life itself. If courtesy campaign improves quality of life, then I am all for it . Do note that I do not think the govt can carry off any campaign well enough for it to mean anything… regardless of anti-drug or courtesy. The only one that worked (too well) is the stop at 2 I guess.

[...] has received a rare stay of execution because of legal technicalities connected to his right to appeal. His final plea will be held in [...]

lobo

I thought Mas Selamat was caught OUTSIDE the country. Did we need to attack other country to pursue him?

We can’t even find Yong’s boss or do anything with him, you want to talk about burning poppy fields. So its either Yong dead or burn poppy fields. No one or syndicates are in between.

I am talking about the agent that Yong is expected to meet up with to pass the ‘gift’ over, not random agents. If they can’t be bothered to track just this lead, don’t even talk about looking for random agents.

Yong thought that drugs were like cigarettes. If he had not had to give up on education, if the Malaysian schools talk about drugs in their schools, Yong could have been aware of the damages drugs can cause. If you really think that courtesy campaign can be more important in improving the quality of life, I wish you good luck in finding quality of life.

Eh, I’m leaving Singapore soon which is why I stopped reading local news. Was Mas Salamat caught by Singapore police in a foreign jurisdiction?

Lobo76,

Extraterritorial legislation works fine for drug interdiction without sending in soldiers to burn poppy fields. Think of the DEA concept for anti-drug ops.

I sat through anxiously and earnestly the entire appeal hearing this morning (8 Dec 2009) with reknown criminal lawyer Mr. Jason Peter Dendroff (who had been the defence counsel for Yong during the initial trial) seated on my left beside me. The appeal this morning at Court 9A was presided by his Lordship Chief Justice Chan, Justices of Appeal Andrew Phang and V K Rajah with surprisingly lots of SMU law students and some learned Assistant Registrars present. The atmosphere was indeed tense where it is the first time I saw armed Prison Officers holding stirling and high-power riffles milling around. Can’t blame them due to high degree of security – we are dealing with a condemned prisoner.
During the entire arguments and exchanges I noticed one thing for sure and that was brilliant questions and arguments put forth by the Justices directed to both counsel and public prosecutor.
Guess Yong must be thanking and kowtowing his God this evening at Changi Prison for His grace when the appeal to stay execution and also to file appeal was granted when pronouncement was made exactly at 11.39 am Singapore time 8th December 2009 at the relief of Yong’s family members (seated on the extreme first row on my left of the Court) after the three justices deliberated for 39 minutes when the court was adjourned at 10.55 am after both defence and prosecution presented their arguments substantiated with authorities (both UK and Malaysia cited) and past proceedings.
This morning’s judgment certainly reflects the globally acclaimed high standards of Singapore’s criminal justice system and due processes in Singapore. It is so exceedingly evidential that the Court of Appeal is empowered to decide on the case before the three justices this morning to grant a stay of execution and also to allow an appeal after the former appeal was withdrawn due to misguided religious belief.
Guess every Singaporean is also as lucky as Yong as I witnessed the delivery of judgment. Defence Counsel Mr. M Ravi surely did a fantastic and commendable job.
I learnt what finality and merits of appeal were all about this morning. This hinges what layman call ‘life and death’.
Finally wondering why our President of the Criminal Law Society was not present this morning when I was ‘craning’ my neck for him.
Hurrah! Mr. Ravi, you did a great job!!! The Yong family must be kissing your hands (and feet as well) now for the next three months at least!
By NOT GOD

[...] http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/12/high-court-grants-rare-stay-of-execution-appeal/ [...]