End

“Theory is only good if a few basic assumptions are the only parameters that matter and remain true throughout. Real life is more complex than this where theorists sometimes find it expedient to exclude other important parameters as it will make their theory messier and not so neat. It is not so basic when this theory is put side by side with other matters, easily forgotten when a particular theory is being emphasized, when standards of living is not going to improve where basic wages for work done are not enough to cover basic costs of essentials like food & shelter.”

When certain economic theories are taught in schools throughout the world and over the decades, they must have been accepted as good theories and are applicable to real life.

If basic wages can’t cover costs of essentials, why are there people travelled all the way from China or India to take up the jobs here?

“You may want to give appropriate examples of jobs which may be outsourced to other places outside of our country because of minimum wages. Jobs that command low-wage here like labourers, cleaners, waiters, etc have to reside within the country and cannot be practically outsourced. Most probably, those jobs which can be outsourced because of low wages plus other overall synergistic considerations would have already been done so and, if not already being done, will be done.”

Oh I see, the Reform Party is proposing a system of minimum wages to protect labourers, waiters and cleaners! Didn’t you tell them that these are jobs which Singaporeans do not want to do?

Singaporeans want to play with modern technologies while earning their incomes. They want to be professionals, executives, managers and investors. It seemed to me that the Reform Party is using an out-dated weapon to hit wrong target! Or may be they do not know the ground well enough.

Members of the Reform Party must have missed many of the economics lessons delivered by the ministers over the decades : skill upgrading , re-training, positive attitude and growing the economic pie for all! Tell them not to miss the next lesson!

“It just needs one self-interested dissatified worker to blow the whistle with proof and strict enforcement, made much easier in a tight country like ours, to ensure that this does not happen. Undesirable & illegal acts like drug trafficking, robbery, etc may still happen even if there are laws to curb it and that goes the same for minimum wage policy as far as your concern for “black labour market” goes. That does not take away the fact that certain good policies or laws still need to be there.”

And what are you going to do with the company that paid below the minimum wage? Closed it down? Do you know how many people would lose their jobs?

I found this nice article on Dubai economy and how it resembles singapore in certain ways.

http://www.temasekreview.com/2009/12/05/the-demise-of-dubai-%e2%80%93-how-the-mighty-have-fallen/comment-page-1/#comment-46149

I found a reader’s comment especially interesting and I quote :

“Singapore resembles Dubai model. While Dubai is a part of bigger UAE and close to oil rich Abu Dhabi, Singapore is alone balancing on a tight rope.

Reads like a paraphase of an article by Business Times, which is republished on the Malaysian Insider.

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/opinion/breaking-views/45422-singapore-and-dubai-alike-yet-so-different–oh-boon-ping-

http://campaignjbj.wordpress.com/

http://www.temasekreview.com/2009/12/05/the-demise-of-dubai-%e2%80%93-how-the-mighty-have-fallen/comment-page-1/#comment-46149

I found a reader’s comment especially interesting and I quote :

“Singapore resembles Dubai model. While Dubai is a part of bigger UAE and close to oil rich Abu Dhabi, Singapore is alone balancing on a tight rope.

Similar to Dubai, without any natural resources, Singapore Inc. including the 2 SWF dug deeper into her 50 years of accumulated reserves. And Temasek and CapL are starting to borrow substantially thru issuing longer term bonds in the international market.

MM mentioned that the post recovery period will be very different and uncertain, and Singapore must expect lower eco growth.

As such, it will be difficult to regain the usual footing as b4. Thus, both taxes and GST will have to go up sooner than previously expected.
“

what nonsense you mumbling here?
i scanned the whole article and no one ever called any good people a dog.
You are a liar and your baseless allegations can lead you into trouble.

stop using the name fingering on a saturday. go out and socialise.

“Opportunist,
if you dare to be more racist, i hope you get sued soon.
your ip is all over.
hope you not grabbing contents .
Are you? Have you? ”

It’s onerous upon TR itself hosting the site to vet and censor whatever it deems improper.
Because the dissidents and sink-a-poors are mainly envious foreigners or ex-Singaporeans with an axe to grind residing abroad.

“ang moh” is the hokkien term for caucasian. check it out at any hawker centres.
Mr. Kenneth Jeyaretnam’s mother is causacian and his father is of tamil sri lankan descent, So what is so derogoratory?

Opportunit doesn’t call good people “Dogs”. It is slanderous and shd be checked. Right?

“Opportunist,
if you dare to be more racist, i hope you get sued soon.
your ip is all over.
hope you not grabbing contents .
Are you? Have you? ”

It’s onerous upon TR itself hosting the site to vet and censor whatever it deems improper.
Because the dissidents and sink-a-poors are mainly envious foreigners or ex-Singaporeans with an axe to grind residing abroad.

“ang moh” is the hokkien term for caucasian. check out

Theory is only good if a few basic assumptions are the only parameters that matter and remain true throughout. Real life is more complex than this where theorists sometimes find it expedient to exclude other important parameters as it will make their theory messier and not so neat.

It is not so basic when this theory is put side by side with other matters, easily forgotten when a particular theory is being emphasized, when standards of living is not going to improve where basic wages for work done are not enough to cover basic costs of essentials like food & shelter.

“Alternatively, employers may resort to outsourcing functions to get around with the minimum wage requirement. More jobs would be lost as companies providing the outsourcing services may be based in foreign countries.”

You may want to give appropriate examples of jobs which may be outsourced to other places outside of our country because of minimum wages.

Jobs that command low-wage here like labourers, cleaners, waiters, etc have to reside within the country and cannot be practically outsourced. Most probably, those jobs which can be outsourced because of low wages plus other overall synergistic considerations would have already been done so and, if not already being done, will be done.

“It is also no secret that with a system of minimum wage, “black labour market” will exist. Businesses will try ways to hire workers at wages below the minimum level stipulated by law, e.g. paying workers below what is stated in their employment contracts.”

It just needs one self-interested dissatified worker to blow the whistle with proof and strict enforcement, made much easier in a tight country like ours, to ensure that this does not happen.

Undesirable & illegal acts like drug trafficking, robbery, etc may still happen even if there are laws to curb it and that goes the same for minimum wage policy as far as your concern for “black labour market” goes. That does not take away the fact that certain good policies or laws still need to be there.

of course, that was a “commoner’s” perspective. maybe economists have a different opinion on this. plus, it could be also due to sampling.. i just happen to meet someone who is against minimum wage.

but since the reform party is looking at making some informed policy statements, i thought it will be good to point this out, so they can do a more informed study, with due diligence.

after all, this affects us all and we want to make sure we come out with the best way forward, with no regrets in future.

i tend to agree that minimum wage will hurt Singaporeans generally.
for the same reasons as stated in (41).

What is worse is we create a divide within the working class.
Those who are fortunate to have jobs will have more pay.
But if you are unfortunate to be the one jobless, that is over for you.

Companies tend to have a fixed budget for staff.
Assume it is $1000, the choice is between
(i) Give 100 people $10 each or (ii) Give 50 people $20 (min wage) each.
Legislating min wage does not make the pie bigger.
It just change the distribution of the pie.

Hence, i feel the focus should be on growing the pie.

It is basic economics theory that a system of minimum wage will not improve employees’ living standard. On the contrary, it has the potential of raising unemployment rate further and lowering employees’ income.

What would happen if Singapore adopted a system of minimum wage? You can bet that employers would pay the minimum rate, regardless of productivity or competence. The Reform Party may argue that such an employer would end up losing skilled labour. However, let us not forget that employers can easily employ much more talented people at the same rate from overseas. These are people who have the drive, skills, commitment and positive attitude to contribute to Singapore’s economy.

Alternatively, employers may resort to outsourcing functions to get around with the minimum wage requirement. More jobs would be lost as companies providing the outsourcing services may be based in foreign countries.

It is also no secret that with a system of minimum wage, “black labour market” will exist. Businesses will try ways to hire workers at wages below the minimum level stipulated by law, e.g. paying workers below what is stated in their employment contracts. Workers who are desperate for jobs are more willing to cooperate with unscrupulous employers – because they know that there are many highly skilled foreign workers who are more than happy to assist employers in their cost saving.

as i’ve always been saying in my comments on TOC, right now being an armchair critic is not only futile, but dangerous. not that PAP will come down on you, but more because the country and its people need help.

i’m not good with economy and numbers. but i absolutely think we need actual numbers and figures, white papers and proposals about how to:

1) implement minimum wage yet encouraging local companies/enterprises to employ Singaporeans.
– what should the min wage be (per hr pre/post tax)
-> why set it at this rate, what does a 40h week at this rate provide
-> what are the laws governing it? how to not have loopholes to exploit? how should we punish people if they dun observe it?

we can’t compete even at today’s depressed wages, so min wage is going to make it worse. we need a comprehensive system whereby work visas are not given just by paying a $150 levy. That’s way too significant and too cheap.

2) prevent or have stricter laws against exploiting foreign cheap labour.
– how should employers be punished if convicted
– how should foreign workers be protected or seek protection?

as if depressing wages isn’t bad enough, they now figure out how to house them in inhuman conditions and even not paying wages. again, there is no way singaporeans can let them get away with this, hence again, these are “talents” who are favoured over locals.

3) number of foreign skilled/unskilled work visas. Criteria of approval
US has a 65k max each year. there is another quota for masters/phd holders. there is another category for “exceptional” talents (for e.g., if you are maria sharapova, LOL).

I won’t go into the argument whether 65k is enough for US. I think we need actual numbers, as to what talents we need in each area, how many. we can’t just give PR status to a newspaper vendor. (remember that story about how the downturn is creating a queue at ICA? they interviewed a PRC, and he’s applying for PR, his day job is selling newspapers at those vendor shops)

those are local jobs, no question about it. it’s untrue that singaporeans don’t want to work those jobs, the only reason is that wages are so depressed that they can’t pay their mortgage or transportation fares with it.

4) provide financing to kickstart local businesses, and also encourage them to employ locals.

let’s keep a good ratio (say at least 50-50) at these enterprises to qualify for a better financing rate. banks should not just sell out to corporations, there is a duty to support the real local economy. the country and its people are at stake here.

Actually I am very impressed with him as well! And I thought by sharing with him how others will perceived him and his post. I am merely trying to guide him. If he truly wants to make a difference as he grows he needs to start working of public relationship skills, and there is not better time than now.

As for suppressing his feelings, I did not ask him to do so. I merely asked if it is his intend to be abrasive and grind the sentiments of swing votes against RP.

Let us be clear here. We are both terribly impress with this kid. I want to make him aware of PR — very important in the field of politics — and I believe he is more than equipped to think and come to this awareness.

My intent is to help him despite not being so.

two comments deleted only ? you made me want to laugh and want to puke onto your face (don’t worry, cyber puke on cyber face lah). you will fare better with MSM lah.

learn & exchange ideas ? I was wondering why you even bothered to say it leh.

what do you think of the cooling period ? to learn & exchange ideas also ? you have to really ask yourself whether all of you really want to let the public learn & exchange ideas …… or to control ideas, yeah just think MSM. yes, very very slowly good good good and righttttttttt, MSM, yes, think MSM.

Why say this leh. just support anyhow itself is a principal and strategy leh.
do not play by the rules all the time if it ain’t work, especially the rules keep on magically changing to your disadvantage. ok. now, any blind man here.

“Open your eye big. Don fall into boobe trap. Take care.”

Don’t you think that all along we are in a trap, not booby lah but an open one where it has been drawn around you without you needing to move at all. now what do you think of the cooling period.

If you want to post potentially defamatory comments, I urge you to do so in your real name. Freedom and responsibility are two sides of the same coin. You cannot do one without the other.