why focus on christianity?
what is so political about this news?
what is so social about this news?
i am non christian leh.
I feel marginalised wor.

Maybe a minister / mp is a member?
heheee just tok cok only lah. can ?

Might as well take over National Stadium. The Sports Hub is a goner already.

May be KH can give some advice to GIC and Temasek Holdings.

Being a fellow Christian myself,i don’t see the need to spend so lavishly on acquiring a piece of land for $310M,its taxpayers’ hard earned money down the drain,why don’t CH rent a building for a cheaper rate,what happens to the underground church that is located in Jurong West???

This is ridiculous,totally horrendous,i wonder what others may be thinking?On one hand,we have homeless people camping on beaches,we have poor people who live on harsh conditions,we have old folks who are selling card boxes for a living,people are still getting retrenched,the unemployed Sporeans who are struggling with their daily finances,who is going to help them?

As far as i am concerned,the $310M should go to people who are in dire straits,not build another church!The church is made of people,not buildings,this is definitely NOT a Christian way of life,i wonder what would Jesus Christ say?

City Harvest,please look @ yourselves,you should lead by example by living a steadfast,humble life,to reach out the poor,needy,helpless & not exalt yourselves above the Almighty,you disappoint The One above & your fellow believers in Christ….

The Force is definitely not on your side……Dear God,help us all……

Luke Skywalker

According to the financial statements disclosed in the church website: http://www.chc.org.sg/eng/church/financial_stt.php, City Harvest Church has not performed well financially over the past two financial periods.

Based on the Income Statements, during the 18 months period from 1 Jan 2006 to 30 Jun 2007, the church incurred a loss of S$441,000, and for the 16 months period ended 31 Oct 2008, the church incurred a loss that amounted to almost one million Singapore dollars (S$967,000).

The balance sheets show that the bank and cash balances held by the church had declined sharply from S$27million as at 30 Jun 2007 to less than S$5million as at 31 Oct 2008.

It is anyone’s guess whether the financial position of the church has continued to deteriorate in 2009.

So the questions now are:
Is the church really in the position to undertake this $310million building project? Will the members (mostly youngsters below the age of 25 years) be pressured to give their pocket money/ hard earned money to the church?

Wah.. So, Kong Hee FATT CHOY oredi…

$310 million divided by 27,000 people equals more than $11,000 per person. And we have not taken into account other acquistions

honestly, renting a place every week for such a large congregation isn’t cheap, not at all. I do events, I know the costs, they’re CRAZY. If you think about it in the long run, it’s definitely cheaper to have your own building.

No purpose serve in highlighting this.
There are so many churches and mosques and temple making investments regularly . So what is so earth-shaking about this for you to waste bloggers time reading this?

More questions:

Is the S$310m just the land cost or the total project cost?

The change of financial year-end is usually a red-flag for stakeholders, auditors and regulators. Why has City Harvest Church changed it’s financial year-end twice in the last few years (in the year 2007, from 31 Dec to 30 Jun; and then again in the year 2008, from 30 Jun to 31 Oct)? Should stakeholders, auditors and regulators be concerned that things are in order?

Has the church improved it’s financial performance and position for the financial year ended 31 Oct 2009?

Is it wise for City Harvest Church to undertake the building project now, especially after it has been incurring financial losses for the past few years? Is the church subjecting itself (and its members) to undue financial pressure unnecessarily? Is it not wiser and more responsible for the church leadership to put its finances in order first, before plunging into such a financially-burdensome endeavor?

This article not very tasteful leh. Christianity-bashing again?

If oppositions are going to play this card, I would rather vote for the known devil than the unknown ones.

There goes another article by TOC on Christianity with a subliminal message! What’s are you trying to tell your readers? Go straight to the point lah…but actually hor, there’s really no need for such articles anymore, we know loud and clear TOC’s anti-Christianity stance all this while…so its nothing new or surprising! Relax lah…

It’s not Christianity bashing folks. I’m a Christian and I don’t feel that it’s bashing Christians. it’s just bashing prosperity-gospel churches and dodgy pastors.

To crossed? and others who are unhappy with TOC’s article about Christianity…look at it again…some articles are about some minority that perverse views and tries to change the boundary…and this article is about Charismatic Church… with a rock-concert like service….and famous stories about its collection….

You want to know the details? … watch the live webcast tomorrow at CHC website

just bashing properity-something somehting? sound just like the pap.

want to bash everyone back to poverty? everyone should be bashed back to be a peasant? I am sick of money not enough. stop telling me being rich is no good. I hear enough of that from the mainstream.

this article just doesn’t contribute to my political awareness. i am looking for affirmation to who i should vote. this article does not help.

and i freaking like rock-concert. i am so fcuking sick of being prim and porper and well controled and well planned out deprived life well mapped out by well you knwo who.

Dear all,

I would like to emphasise that there is no Christian-bashing agenda in this announcement at all. From a journalistic point of view, this is indeed news that should be given space, considering CHC’s influence in Singapore. Any attempt to accuse TOC of “Christian-bashing” is unfounded and has no basis in truth.

Wow, thats really a lot of money!

CHC very influential meh? I don give a hood to them.

why never allow my comment which is before yours? opinion means accusation? another pap style.

ok ok , don like can don read right? just like don like pap migrate lor, right?

i am doing both. happy?

I think TOC’s article’s pretty neutral.. its just how the comments on the article that make it sound critical. Let’s put things into perspective people — this is just a report on recent news. :)

how does having a paragraph on how hoemless ppl were being chased away smack in the middle of this article make it neutral?

Now we need ghost commentor to cover backside?

i always think highly of TOC. I thot at last got something to counter 154th. now i know journalists are the same lah.

Thank you for showing me the reality.

**Moderating Editor: No one is covering backside or frontside and there are no ghost commenters (we really don’t have the time to do this even if we wanted to) here. I do hope that we are able to convince you that we are not ‘the same’ through other articles.**

I agree that there is no real need for this news to be reported. As long as CHC is not breaking any laws, it’s a private affair of a private organisation. Religion is the opiate of the masses. I have no sympathy for people weak-minded enough to become drug addicts. Volenti non fit injuria.

yah lor! even people want to tiao dang every day also none of other people business. so kaypoh for wat? money already not enough still like dat.

I don’t understand what the big fuss is about. What are you people so pessimistic and cynical? It’s not like you have a part to play in this milestone event… are you even going to make a contribution to the project? Do I sense the green-eyed monsters here? Get a life really.

Luke Skywalker ,

Please look at a different perspective angle.They are just following the vision and dream God have given to them.
310M in the eye of God is worth nothing.God only want to know your obedience toward him.
God only want them to Build a Largest Church to Penerate in the Market Place.

If you felt that 310M is wrongly spend.
To me you treated money worthy beyond Christ.

God can send us to help the needy even without any money , when we place our trust on to him.
God can I ask us do many things , but are you obedience to do it?

Building a Church with $310M – Obvious they know that they will get crit , but they fear the God they serve only.
Which make them doing even greater work for God.

My English is quite bad :D

Soloman built a great house for the kingdom of God simply because he loved God. To love is not to talk about loving, but loving god’s people and loving his house. Its about physical actions that you do. You can’t say you love anyone if you have no intention of giving. Having a congregation of that size, being able to have this large amount of people standing together worshipping and praising God as one is that not in line with the word of God? To stand in Unity? rather than having two places going to and fro from expo to Jurong west and back to expo. Loving the house of God, building a physical great house. Upon knowing the news, people give willingly. I agree with van, practically, in the long run, it’s much cheaper having your own building.

CHC is currently sending teams in to Haiti to help with the earthquake affected areas. is anyone doing anything like that to help? there are chc classified ads to help recruit people into jobs. and chc help funds for those who live in families with lower incomes. a school city college has been set up for a long time now, helping o level, n level students, giving tuition. Free children tuition classes also given. Visits to physically disabled and elderly via city care and ministries. a dance school has been set up, O school to give entertainment and teach those who are interested in dance to build lives in the entertainment industry. If there are so many people in the church, with not enough space,and everyone is really cramping up sitting on stairs especially on big days like easter and christmas, should they worship god in some open field? that way maybe they wont spend too much then to please everyone. then maybe just maybe we are undermining God in what he can do for his Glorious church.

I don’t think TOC is a portal that only focuses on political news. So since TOC is also covering the news of religious tensions that are rising in Malaysia, over the name of Allah. I wonder how many more cynical people will be “maginalized” as well. (please refer to: http://theonlinecitizen.com/about/)

I’m a christian. I bet in the days of Solomon, many people and “Pharisees” also ridiculed and mocked him when he spent “a large amount of gold and silver to build the temple (of God). The Biblical account reports that this amounted to 100,000 talents (3,000 tons) of gold (an amount exceeding the current annual global production and 1,000,000 talents (30,000 tons) of silver. ” (refer to: http://www.crystalinks.com/solomonstemple.html)

By the way, the money gathered isn’t taxpayers money. Please do not spurt things that will stumble or mislead others. However, I can understand why one would think this way, if one has never given any love offering in his life.

It’d be good if one can check himself and find out more facts & information first before casting the first stone. Are you doing things in your capacity to help “the homeless people camping on beaches, the poor people who live on harsh conditions, and the old folks who are selling card boxes for a living” or it’s just a convenient tongue-lashing, talk the talk session?

God bless.

What is wrong with the church acquiring a bigger land to serve the needs of its growing congregation? Does it please you then, for churches (and Christians for that matter) to be poor and miserly? Money makes the world go round. With money, help can be rendered, the sick and poor can be saved. And I know that CHC is doing just that.

If anything, Luke Skywalker, you should be glad that more souls are constantly being saved for the KOG, that the church needs to expand physically to contain and better serve its members – both new and old.

Let’s be all poor then. and see what poor can do for the needy society.
let’s worship god in an open field with no sound system just a stage and people standing on the grass. Worship is all about the heart right? yeah sure why not?
Why don’t anyone be the one to do that then? Then that’s what we call humble. That’s what we call holy and true worship.

My question then, if you are able to worship god the best way you can, Why don’t you give the best? Is god not worthy to receive the best? or maybe lets make it small. then with about 33000 people btw, we can have 20 services a week then. Let’s see what happens to the pastor who preaches like that and every guest preacher who comes. They probably will not be burnout because of loving god but because of the strain of going on non stop for that 20 services to preach to 33000 people who are hungry for the word of God.

Maybe people need to enlarge their mindsets just because you’ve probably never seen a church that big, does’nt mean its impossible. Dr yonggi Cho church sits 20000 people in a single service. He has the biggest church in Asia. with 70000 people. plus land in singapore is extremely expensive than in other countries. building a stadium in other countries might come up to a different cost.

As sure as storm drains
will fill when it rains
So does the stormtroops of God
will advance when insinuations
of coffers drained
are made unrestrained
It happens all the time
to many including mine
Doubt there must not be
of intent and morality
We concur! cries the faithful
and fools
Those minds with questions silent
for fear of being sued.

CHC NEEDS NEW CHURCH FOR……Sun Ho to sing china wine…..duh

So what if CHC bought a piece of land at $310M. The money came from their congregation members, and if the members approved it, what bloody business had it got to do with you (TOC)?

OR, you are trying to imply that Christians are rich, and they should not be?

OR you are trying to question where the money came from?

OR, you simply have a hidden agena in attacking Christianity and Christians, as evident in your many biased and instigative articles, especially after the AWARE incident? Is this another concerted effort and cynical tactic by the LGBTs to defame Christianity and its people?

State your stand clearly for all to see and know, TOC!

**Moderating Editor: We have no agenda other than to discuss issues that affect the community – be it directly or indirectly. Religion is a sensitive and emotional topic but that doesn’t mean it should not be discussed (at the risk of being criticised).**

@John – I agree. Your English is atrocious.

My agreement with you ends there.

Dear TOC..
pls stay away from religion…. it’s way too dangerous to go there… focus on what really matters to your viewers..

Ways of such EXTRAVAGANCE = same pattern = MIW.
Alot small minded conservative so called X’tians runs MIW.
Same same.

X’tians never do wrong in name of their god (MaterialisM)
MIW never do wrong in name of their god (MM)
Same same.

Go figure.
Amen………:P

Do they need to recruit more to fund their ambitious operations?

I miss the days when we were served with christians that had no desire or possess anything extravagantly materialistic. When their lives and minds were only focussed on their religion, God and doing good deeds for the unfortunate and needy.

The fact is that when a religious or charity organisation gets too intent on raising material wealth and possessions, their minds and selves will be separated by different demands and needs, losing focus on what really matters.

This prosperity gospel is getting so much heat in the states now and yet here we have religious leaders dripping in the most material possessions and living the high life. But then its quite typical singaporean – to want the best of everything, to want to have everything and not feel bad or guilty about it.

Regardless of what the bible preaches or the example jesus set for his disciples, the rich here just want everything in life and the hereafter without feeling guilty about it – and the prosperity gospel is a the perfect theology for them.

I think anyone, Christian or not, will agree that the money could have been spent on other more worthy areas like, helping the poor.

It doesn’t help that CHC doesn’t have a very good reputation, be it within or outside the Christian community. Many fellow Christians feel that CHC is too commercialised, while non-Christians are annoyed by their constant evangelism.

Religious institutions not being taxed is just ridiculous.

Faith is poison to humanity.

This is Great news.. I see nothing wrong with finding a bigger land to contain the church congregation.. And given the high property prices in singapore, $310million is a very reasonable price..Sometimes i don’t understand some of you people, if the price high, you have something negative to say, if the price is low, you also have something to comment about.. why cant we just be happy? i think dont comment unless you’re the one paying the money!

kudos to Chc and congrats on getting your new land!!!!

The Idiot Government needs to be careful of these group of people.

We don’t want a ‘Vatican city’ within pin-sized-Singapore.

A clergyman is a person who undertakes the management of your spiritual affairs as a method of bettering his earthly ones.

if people goes to church so that they can wear their latest Louis Vutton and Gucci,then there is something wrong.
Is this church is about Jesus Christ ??? or this church is about how huge the halls is and the materials that it is made of?

The church is getting so powerful, i am sure the pap will recruit or send their dogs into this organisation to have control and influence over the votes. Remember Prince is also paid close to $600,000 worth of peanuts each year!

Check out Kong Hee’s blog and you will know who he rubs shoulders with. You’ll then realise who his big contributors are. The list includes but is not restricted to property magnates in Asia (The Lippo Group). Follow him on Twitter and discover the rich and famous people he connects with. It’s simplistic to divide 310 dollars over 27 000 people. Some of his contributors are famous millionaires. Of course, don’t forget the literally RICH network that his wife provides him with – the L.A recording industry.

What kind of house these clergymen live in?

Why need to spend like this?

Who they rub shoulders with?

Investigate !

so you guys actually also not impartial. you also have hidden agenda. doesn’t matter, you can censor but you can’t hide these forever, you know.

no wonder ppl say TR better than TOC, now i see why.

you are not oppositions with the nobel cause of providing an alternative voice. you are just with another hidden agenda. and the irony is i am not even christian or pap sympathiser!

**Moderating Editor: Apologies for your comments not being approved. It was due to the automation of wordpress and not due to any particular campaign against you. I have since approved all your comments and apologise for the inconcenience. We hope that you will continue to have faith in TOC in spite of its shortcomings.**

This shows how well they have done on the surface to cover up the inner financial problems. But too bad, its not foolproof. And they expect more people to throw money in for the new church soon. This is great… for people who want the church. This is VERY bad… for people who wants to use those money and use on other purposes and helping the others.

“That cost of money is reasonable” Fine… but the cost of this money on other purpose is even greater. And best part is that its not as though their church is rundown or even the expo is going to close.Go ahead and “boost” the economy then.

“Get a life!” I think we are getting a life by sharing comments and making the world better. Its not as though we are commenting rubbish here. If the place you work has no discussion or group, u sounded like u arent working at all.

I think this report is very incomplete, to be fair. The pastor should give more details about it and why is the church at loss going to acquires such a land for that amount of money.

harvest a city of what mmm?! that really bites me

So what if CHC buys a piece of land at $310M? They did it with their own congregation members’ offerings and tithings, and the members had obviously approved it before they make the purchase.

What bloody business has it got to do with TOC and those busy-body, shallow and narrow-minded posters here? Did they used your tax money? Did they infringe on your rights? Did they create harm to the society?

TOC, what’s your agenda behind all these instigative articles? Is this another of those LGBT’s cynical and malicious movement to attack and belittle Christianity?

[...] Posted by addice in Uncategorized. Leave a Comment From http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/01/city-harvest-church-acquires-land-for-s310m-in-central-south-sin... [...]

According to Pierre, we are no longer allowed to comment on anything that does not involve us in the ways he wants it to involve us. Also, no one can possibly publish a factual piece of news without having an agenda. Coincidentally, all these ‘agendas’ are the ones he doesn’t like.

Please don’t leave, Pierre. You keep us all so well entertained, like those dancing chimps at a carnival.

But, to humour you,

“Did they create harm to the society?”

Yes, it is possible to argue that they do. Churches have tax exempt status, this is effectively a subsidy by the taxpayers. The rationale is that they provide a social service. The lavishness of the purchase makes this questionable. Just how will having a huge complex benefit society at large?

Having a bigger church to hold more crowds, and attract more members does not benefit society. It only benefits the church itself. Especially if the church sees society as its “Market Place”

So the ‘harm’ is the irresponsible spending of the subsidy provided by tax payers.

- From the LGBT’s cynical and malicious movement to attack and belittle Christianity

@jem:

All religious societies are tax-exempt. By “irresponsible spending of the subsidy provided by taxpayers” – this doesn’t make sense. All churches and other religious organizations are funded by their members. What subsidy is provided by taxpayers? How does it affect them? Or more accurately, these religious organizations are self-funding and don’t receive any government funding – so how then can you argue they “spend taxpayers’ money”?

o Observer:

I was studying Chc’s income statements and you mentioned earlier that:

“The balance sheets show that the bank and cash balances held by the church had declined sharply from S$27million as at 30 Jun 2007 to less than S$5million as at 31 Oct 2008.”- thereby signaling a loss

However, if you study the balance sheet, you would realize that although there was a decrease in bank, cash and fixed deposits to less than 5million.

There was also an increase in the Available-for-sale financial assets from 500,000 to 35m.

Total assets also increased from 78m to 87m.

Besides that – people who sell land and projects usually look for viable prospects before they sign with anybody.

I would safely say that the sellers of the land did their homework before they were willing to sell to City Harvest.

I think they have more to lose than someone just making comments on the internet.

@uncannygal – If the church is tax-exempt, this means they don’t have to pay GST etc, and donations to the church are potentially tax-deductible.

A few effects to consider:

1. As @jem, the assumption is that the organization is largely for social and public good. But if a large amount is used in accumulating assets, and/or paying the leadership significant amount of money, or used by the leadership for self promotion that drives other sources of income, then this really calls into question the true intent of the organization.

You can argue that the organization runs social programs etc, but if the spending there constitutes a relatively smaller percentage of the money (vis-a-vis the Red Cross, for instance), then how they represent themselves and use the funds should be questioned.

Conversely, we as a society are foregoing tax revenue in recognition of the social good that the organization and its funders are doing. But if the money is really used for some other reason, then we as taxpayers have all the right to ask questions.

2. Because the church relies on tithes and donations for its funding, and because of the heavy financial commitment, it will either have to increase the size of the congregation or encourage larger donation. Likely both. Look out for aggressive recruitment and fund-raising tactics.

@pierre – this article lists nothing but facts. If you believe this article has defamed the church somewhere, please do us a favor and point us there. If you dispute the facts, enlighten us. Otherwise, you are just a bigot stretching this factual article to a commentary on LGBT, Christianity etc. People like you are why church-burning and temple disfigurement happens.

@uncannygal

As @irrational mentioned, donations to the church,in other words their income, is not taxed. Individuals and corporations are taxed in order to fund infrastructure and services, among other things.

The church enjoys these benefits, but is not required to contribute in the form of taxes. So the money that is not taxed, is the subsidy paid for by the taxpayers.

Hope that clarifies.

Hey Lukie (Luke Skywalker)… Just zip up! What City Harvest do is none of your business…

Go get a date or something… You must be really free to bother so much about other people…

Get a life dude!

Guys and gals,

We must understand that this is a free society and a republic whther
We think it is or not. All are free to air whatever opinions they haven good or bad,
Constructive or not.

I think that we should put our actions where it matters.
If we think that we should help the poor, put your money where you say it matters.
If we have religious convictions, we should honor it.

So why not let us just keep our peace first and
Equate our words with our actions.I think CHC had been
Doing their part in social work and stuff.

Because they were focused and wanted a piece of land in the central
They got it. But land in central are pricier.
If we can pick and choose our dream home, why not a Church?
Why not a mosque? Why not a temple?

Just because CHC is the first to do this, it does not means it cannot be done.

Come on, people. CHC is moving to the frontline in the war against the integrated resorts. Soon, other churches will make a similar relocation, forming a Christian perimeter around the integrated resorts. The Jehovah Witnesses will ALSO do their part by swarming the integrated resort with evagenlistic material. HOORAY!!!

How does this church makes its monies to finance this project?

Does it sells drinks or food or something?

the entrance got ERP anot? :P

liddat oso can tax indirect to regulate traffic! just look at the crowd, even if only 1 quarter of the congregation drives, govt very happy!!

maybe kenna ring fenced by gantries (beep beep beep = $$$) every weekend. lol….

cat

post #50 on January 18th, 2010 1.41 am

they sell faith. some have blind faith, some true faith, others are probably influenced by close friends, some others are drawn by the hippie crowd (cute babes & fashionable dudes). i been there once in their old old place.

i never went back.

Open discussions and comments that are CONSTRUCTIVE, MATURE and RESPONSIBLE should be highly encouraged. Anything else is just polluting this space.

My perspective of this whole matter is – ultimately, the society is looking at religions to contribute to its social and religious harmony, especially in Singapore’s context. If this church reflects that, then she has contributed positively to society.

And so, there is nothing wrong in building projects like that because it facilitates its work not just for its faith, but also for society’s benefit and progress. As a Building undergrad, I can tell you details of why logically it definitely makes more sense to own a building than to rent for eternity. But i don’t think that’s necessary unless you think you need it. And if it’s a good investment, the church will see return on investment of this land in the long run. That is called financial wisdom, biblically mastered from King Solomon in the book of Proverbs. But it is also called financial common sense. I hope we all have it someday.

As for those who think badly of the church due to its aggressive evangelism, let me tell you that aggressive evangelism is not what the church preach. If you have met people like that who claim to be from City Harvest, maybe they are unfortunately the “black sheeps” of the church. BUT 99% of the time, it is the unbeliever’s own decision to accept the invitation to attend church when it’s being offered. No compulsion. Comeon, Singapore is a free society. How aggressive is aggressive if you don’t hear CHC goers being warned by the state for upsetting the public with its evangelism? Maybe it’s just you having misgivings and prejudice against this church, or you are just a more easily provoked/enraged person.

CHC does not seek public donations. So if you’re not a City Harvest Church member, don’t even have to drop a hair worrying whether your money will suddenly teleport itself into the Church fund. It will never happen.

All funds are collected from CHC members ONLY. If the church members are willing to give, that’s all there is to it. Don’t need to trouble everyone else by being so concern and worried.

BEING POOR
You are so right. Isn’t it obvious that you can’t benefit the less-fortunated society if you are poor all your lives? :)

WASTING MONEY ON A BUILDING
First things first, please do your homework first and understand that renting a place for such a huge congregation is much more expensive financially and time-consuming compare to having a building of S$310M. Do check out the Expo rental (which is Singapore’s largest hall-rental services) :)

Yes, the money is indeed alot and can be used for more humanitarian efforts. Many people asked why waste such money? I know many narrow-minded people can’t see it still, but why can’t you have a state-of-the-art house/apartment and still contribute to the society in a big way? :)

TOC MOTIVE
I don’t believe TOC did anything wrong by posting the article. :) News should be available for anyone. The good thing about them having this article first is the increased traffic and revenues for them I guessed:)

FINANCIAL STATEMENT
If you are not sure, please admit instead of speculating. Financial statement may show movements in figures, but it will never show the underlying reasonale and motives. So stop making assumptions that decline in income or change in financial period mean anything malicious.

Just find it so interesting the range of topics people can be churned out just from a simple factual article like this :) Enjoy debating guys, you are entitled to your own opinions. Just with any other online discussions, there are bound to be nothing leading out of it.:)

Whenever you find anything unjustifiable, maybe you could first ask yourself why you think this way in the first place. Seems like alot of comments are from people who do not have much details and don’t bother about getting the information as to understand “why is it like this or why is it like that”.

PS: I completely understand where these bombardments are coming from. I was once against everything too, about why churches are going so big, why Christians bothered so much about everything etc.. having so much of my own opinions about everything, until I bothered to find out the other side of the truth which I found was always kept out of my narrow stubborn little mind.

I think i would disagree with how some would define a tax-exemption being an effective public subsidy.My understanding is that the tax-rate levied on other tax-payers would be independent of however a religious organization chooses to utilize its funds, y/s? (while yes knowing that the tax-rate considers a multitude of factors before the actual determination)

Yes, there is real monetary savings by a religious organization if it chooses to use its funds to build a building, insofar that they are perhaps able to build more with the $X then a private developer would with the same $X.

However, while there is a real monetary savings here, what is happening is that the government is merely not earning money on the development, status quo. Yes, you could call this a subsidy. But the public as a whole is not “giving” anything to the religious organization.

Additionally, as state and religion are and should be kept in separate arenas, While the public should have a say in the government, why would and should the public have any say in how a religious organization runs itself?

The general public is split into varying camps, of differing agendas and vested interests for and against any religious organization. If tax-exemption is a bona-fida license for any member of the public to protest against how a religious organization uses its own resources to extend its own agenda (which might personally offend your sensibilities but remain legally acceptable),i believe this goes against the right of an individual’s freedom to worship. The general public is not a neutral party.

As long as a religious organization does not overstep the legal parameters set out in determining it’s right to exist (which i have no idea what of, but I’m pretty certain that as long as they get the correct permits, a church could build the tower of babel if they so wanted), the public have no right to ask that a organization be monitored or the liberties that every religious organization enjoyed to be curbed for a particular organization. Even if the scale of operations of the religious organization is larger than commonly expected.

i guess there are people here who get very defensive about anything that does not seem positive about CH.

does feel like MIW’s ways. anything neg-, they get upset & refuse to see things from the “other side”.

snob.

there is a saying that goes “helping the poor & needy is more important than building a 7-storey pagoda” or words to that effect.

by spending that amount on a new place i think religious organisations have lost the plot.

For those challenging and questioning CHC’s ethics, please go and attend their services to experience the dynamics. Otherwise, don’t speculate and instigate!

For those self-righteous questioning why CHC is not helping the poor and needy, you should be aware that CHC is also actively involved in community and social works and they’re a integral part of the National Council of Social Services’ network. Through many of their dedicated volunteers, I am aware of how people’s lives were changed, how poor families were taken and care for through regular visits by their volunteers, and how rebellious and destructive individuals became useful people to their families and the society.

So, mice is nice, care to join them in their community and social work? Are you helping the poor and needy yourself, or you are simply just an armchair critic?

It is a fact that CHC’s funds came from members, and it is properly accounted for and audited based on the stringent rules and requirements stipulated by the Commissioner of Charities (CoC) (don’t forget too that CoC had just completed a major independent audit of CHC’s fund in the previous years, and there was no irregularities found). So, anyone trying to implicate otherwise about their funds should write directly to the CoC for an in-depth investigation…otherwise, rest your peace and don’t insinuate something out of nothing!

CHC is using their legitimate money and how they used it is really none of TOC’s business, unless there’s a hidden agenda that we do not know of, as TOC had left it to the complete imagination of the readers as to why they had reported this news.

And if this is not speculative and instigative, what is it?

I remembered in 2007, there was a COC Governance Review of 7 Charities, which includes CHC. Apparently the government was aware of what was going on in the religious organizations and the report was as below: http://www.charities.gov.sg/charity/charity/charityCMSFileDownload.do?id=75.

Apparently, I do not think there is anything suspicious about the religious organizations financial statement. However, I do read some interesting comments about some organizations not too willing to reveal their yearly income. (http://buddhism.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/288645)

I personally think it makes sense economically for the church to invest in their own building, than to pay heavy rental costs for their meetings.

For those of you who think why not use the money on the poor, I would like to quote the very words of Jesus in Mark 14:3-7:

“And being in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as He reclined, a woman came with an alabaster vial of pure, costly ointment of spikenard. And she broke the vial and poured it on His head.
And some were indignant to themselves, and said, Why was this waste of the ointment made?
For it might have been sold for more than three hundred denarii, and be given to the poor. And they were incensed with her.
And Jesus said, Let her alone! Why do you trouble her? She has done a good work towards Me.
For you have the poor with you always, and whenever you desire you may do them good. But you do not have Me always.”

If CHC felt that God has called them to build Him a house, then let the church alone to do what they are called to do, it is their sacrifices to God anyway, and not the public funding.

God bless …

Hi Luke Skywalker,

I think you’re mistaken on many points.

First of all, it is not lavish at all, for acquiring a $310m property. Moreover it is not just for the land, but the entire project cost. By per-seat calculation, the church’s existing jurong west building and this new building would be more cost efficient than most other churches in Singapore, even smaller ones, by per seat count. It is also the only cost efficient way over the long term than renting or buying several smaller properties. $310m for a 12,000 seat hall right downtown is a steal !

Secondly, it is also not true that the church is not doing well financially, since you’re so good at reading balance sheets, why didn’t you see that the church is low on liabilities and high on accumulated funds, prepared specifically for the new property?

Thirdly, it is also not true that the church is mainly made of people under 25. The mean age is 26 and rising over the years, there’re many entire families from the elderly to the young in church.

Fourthly, the church is not ‘using taxpayer’s money) per-se, as it is not a charity and does not collect funds from the public. As an IPC, it is entirely private.

@ 57) mice is nice on January 18th, 2010 3.53 am

Just to address your insinuation, here’s the answer for your information: http://www.chcsa.org.sg/about_chcsa.htm

===============
City Harvest Community Services Association (CHCSA) was established in March 1996. Championing the merits of active social care within our society, CHCSA has continually endeavoured to express the ethos of faith and hope in the human spirit through practical demonstrations of love to the community at large. This extends especially to those who are less fortunate, regardless of their race, language and religion.

CHCSA passionately believes in a culture of loving others fervently. With that, as of 31 August 2008, we have a dedicated group of 8 full-time staff and 784 volunteers who work toward fulfilling the vision of making a difference in our society. In 2008 alone, CHCSA provided 22,996 services to 14,276 unique individuals.
====================

I also hope that you will not get defensive about anything that does not seem positive about your comments, and that you’ll not get upset & refuse to see things from the “other side”.

Sigh …

Its a common scenario, where church becomes more like MNC.

Except, MNC pays taxes. Lol!

I wonder does the clergymen receive good salaries from their sacrifice for the people?

GLBT gang

You gotta raise yr game.

Money talks.

Tithing rocks, and other religions (Abrahamic or otherwise) should seriously give it a thought.

How about co-existing with casinos? The motto can be “Where miracles happen”.

Look at it this way…

Treat CHC as an entertainment company. They buy land and build entertainment facilities, it is good for Singapore as a whole. At the very least, govt get income (from land sales albeit without taxes) and create jobs (for contractors who will get yet more foreign workers). So sure, there is benefit for the society.

p.s I wonder if IRs should be tax exempt then… hmm….

nice lobo….and soon, we will have business man starting business with a religious theme at the foreground

look at it this way people…CHC will be criticize, and their members will fervently defend the church no matter it is right or wrong…and it will be another cycle….just like what micey says..how about treating their members the way u will treat a MIW fanatics? just let the words flow in and out

Dear Yamamoto,

If I get you correctly, you are saying that CHC members should therefore be treated just like MIW fanatics in TOC…in other words, you are declaring “war” with CHC members (sorry if I had used a strong word)? Did I get your meaning correctly?

I am just wondering what had CHC done to deserve this…because they have the money they shouldn’t have, or because you feel that their motives are evil?

Just to qualify, I’m not from CHC nor a Christian, but I’m just puzzled by your statement above and are seeking clarifications.

Thank you!

Its is Great news that finally City harvest has found a suitable piece of Land to build their new building. Now they no longer have to rent a place, and also can have a bigger place to serve its congregation! Awesome news =)

I feel happy for them. Hope to see their building plans in future.

So glad to hear the news. City Harvest Church has been making great impact in the society and I think with the new church building coming up that can contain more people, they will do greater stuff.

There’s no doubt that for a church, CHC is big and rich. But is that a crime enough to be targeted by TOC and some cynical posters here?

What have they done to deserve a special mention by TOC? Has this got to do with the pro-homosexuality movement that TOC is aggressively supporting and promoting, and therefore, feel that a strong church like CHC will threaten their ongoing fight to legalise homosexuality in Singapore?

I see those “faithful” LGBT supporters who condemn Christians and Christianity during the AWARE saga are out here again…hmmm…

When New Creation Church got their land and shared their plans for the land, people critisized and talked alot. Now when City Harvest Church gets their land and share their plans, lots of people critisized again. What is it about churches and their land? I think Christians are like everyone else, like the Buddhist, the Taoist, Muslims, athiest, all are smart and not dumb. It makes sense that when you find a land to build a religious building, you want the most convenient place for it. When you want to build, you will have the best state of the arts equipment. So I totally see no issues with City Harvest Church getting a land in the center of Singapore, with fantastic facilities, ample parking spaces, adequate eateries. All these cost money, so the money is well spent.

Wonder if those who made remarks about helping the poor have really provided practical help to the poor on a consistent basis themselves or are they just convenient cyber space critics who criticise for the sake of criticising?

Wonder why some people turn a blind eye to the good & positve works but insist on focusing in baseless negative hearsay?

To the unbelievably “eng” critics …

Do you go to every Buddhist/Indian temple/Muslim mosque and ask what they are doing with their money?
Are you interrogating them on why they are building beautiful buildings for the god they worship?
If you were buying your own house, would you decide instead to donate all your money towards charity and choose to live under a bridge?

Or are you worried that CHC will come around your house asking YOU for money?
If you are not contributing a single cent, then what’s all yr kaypoh-ness about?
As far as I know, CHC raises its own money for whatever projects it does, even those giving back toward the community that is chockful of people like you determined to be cynical.

CHC is sending teams into Haiti and giving school dropouts a 2nd chance … what are YOU doing?

Isn’t it amazing how people love to bring irrelevant details into a forum discussion such as this?
Yes, the poor and needy are important and I believe are an important part of every religious’charitable organisations’ ‘vision’ BUT… must the public bring it into the spotlight in EVERY discussion/news about that organisation?
One doesn’t do that for every profitable organisations’ latest breaking news, why the difference here?
YES a religious organisation generally does have that as one of their aims… but it is not its sole aim I believe.
If any knowledgeable person would look into what city harvest church has done in the last 12 months for the poor and needy in Singapore and overseas (need I quote Haiti, Sichuan natural disasters?) I believe he/she would say that city harvest is definitely doing their part for the poor and needy.

I heard that CHC has been moving from rented hall to rented hall at Expo and every move should cost ALOT. I figure getting their own building makes more monetary sense in the long run. It’s sure going to free up more funds to help the society and all. Congrats CHC! It sure is good news!

Gogogogo CHC..I belive we can do it :D We are gonna do God’s mighty works..

Gogogogogogo

I am proud of CHC for finally getting the land! Churches should be able to build a building so that they can house the members more comfortably and efficiently! There’s nothing wrong with them doing so!
It’s not too expensive at all! :)

The church is doing so much good for society and now they have a bigger place where they can house their services and functions! And also many rooms to further outreach to the community! YAY! :)

Regardless of whether you are or you are not a believer, when mindsets have been molded in a certain way, and when something challenges or changes the norm that people are used to, differences in opinions result because people are naturally resistant to change…

Have you ever wondered why people may have a fixed notion of the following?

1. That a church, or another religious organization for that matter, cannot acquire a large piece of land right smack in the middle of town, or anywhere suitable on the island for that matter. There are many sizeable temples, mosques and other places of worship within the city centre.

2. That a church, or another religious organization for that matter, cannot grow beyond a certain size. If CHC has grown bigger than any other church or religious organization in Singapore, something right must be working that has “penetrated” and benefited the lives of its members.

3. That a church, or another religious organization for that matter, cannot be financially strong or have members who are committed to give. There are also many persons of other faiths who donate generously for their beliefs. There are many beautiful temples, mosques and other religious buildings that have come about because of personal donations. Or have modern people lost the notion of giving to a community project altogether, focusing more on self?

4. That a church, or another religious organization for that matter, can also contribute to the economy by offering F&B services, or other services the public can find useful. There are many businesses started by religious people of different faiths, who are also very enterprising in business.

5. That a new church building, or another new religious building for that matter, may be a place to most effectively reach out to the poor, touch the needy, improve the lives of the desperate, and transform the lives of the forsaken. Effectiveness of outreach is a combination of the difference a program can make, commitment of volunteers, execution and sustainability of the effort, and not just a measure of how much money is spent. It is the ROI (Return on Investment).

As a man thinks, so is he… Free your mind!

Even though i was not born from a christian family but i am very proud of singaporeans and churches who have such a big goal and dream! I think this CHC is really something. Read about their community work from the website… 20 years of history and they are still contributing to the society. This church know what they are doing lah

Well all i can say is that there are many out there who have cynical opinions about a church lead by a pastor whose wife is wannabe pop singer. Say, defend and argue all you can but the fact is that the notion of exploiting popular culture to promote a religious faith is only opening yourself to criticism.

If CHC choose to embark on the prosperity gospel path and nurture and flaunt their celebrities then live with the sticks and stones. It comes with the territory of being wealthy and flaunting that wealth and status and fame in the face of society.

Be a witness of your faith in the best possible sense, according to the word of your holy book and you would win the praise the respect of many, even those of other faiths Just look at Ghandi, the Dalai Lama and even Obama.

Funny how trapped minds think that it is other minds that need freeing. There must be a basis to see who exactly is the trapped one.

Cynical people can never get out of their own trapped mind, but what is worst is that they think they are righteous enough to criticise other within their own mental cage…pity them, as they will continue to be trapped in their own pathetic mental cage despite the fact that others around them had already been freed!

I believe the congregation of CHC will continue to grow as freed people!

Dear sloo, your comment, ‘the notion of exploiting popular culture to promote a religious faith is only opening yourself to criticism’ is very oddly placed in this discussion of a building.
However, if you do wish to approach this topic… all I have to say is, if you have a critical mind, you will find something to criticise.

Is there anything that they’re doing that contradicts Biblical doctrine?

If there’s nothing, then I don’t see why they can’t do what they’re gonna do – despite the nay-saying attitudes of other Christians.

It seems to me a pretty good idea to have a building (religious) that will house shops, restaurants and so on – other Christians will find it convenient, for instance, to take food/meals there.

[Food can be quite a problem in Singapore for some Christians. Not all vendors are ‘new food court’ types - they display religious inscriptions and images at their stalls, and many a Christian find it uncomfortable to take food from there. The best places for these Christians are places bereft of religious symbols and artifacts, or places with symbols, artifacts or inscriptions relating to Christianity. Supermarkets - at least most supermarkets - are fine because they are usually bereft of anything which acquaints with religion.]

Once again, I don’t see why this is a bad idea at all. The City Harvest Church seem to want to create a modern Christian village that might be worth studying when it’s complete, up and going – you know, if Christians cannot create a republic of their own why should they not be able to create a village of their own? This has been the quaint idea of many Christians before they grew older, and more pessimistic.

And again, if there’s nothing unbiblical about what they’re doing, why should City Harvest Church not be allowed to do what they are going to do?

Roman Catholicism has a centre, a very grand one, in the Vatican City; Islam has Mecca, but Christians do not even have Jerusalem. Protestantism has never had a real centre in the form of a city, and never will probably, but it should have churches that are interested in creating large, self-sustaining communities.

City Harvest has always been the forward-looking kind, you can tell that even in their worship style. Christians who prefer a more meditative style cannot say that that kind of worship style is not unbiblical, and neither can they say that its ‘expansion plans’ are unbiblical in nature, only that it’s probably all in the good name of evangelism or proselytisation.

Any economical value for acquiring such expensive land when $310m can be used to help the poor and needy. I have heard enough of extravagant spending and lose of billion dollars out of taxpayers money that were treated like toilet papers. Why do we still need charity shows when so many big religion bodies are so wealthy. What would god have done with so much money if he knows his sheeps have nothing to eat.

Reply to #87hngry
Hey!,AMEN to you,buddy.

wah thats a lot of money.

Just my 2 cents worth..

Any church or organisation that is big, requires suitable land and property size in order to function.

A small building like Jurong West – which according to my sources, can only sit 2,000 has caused many problems such as traffic jams, not enough parking lots, not enough F&B places for the members to go to. Previously when they were at Jurong West only, the 27,000 membership were spread over back to back services, rushing off when one service ends to rush in when another starts. I’m talking about 6 English services packed into one weekend, and other ministries such as the children church, the dialect church, the mentally disabled ministry, the Indonesian church etc etc. There is virtually no room in the building for fellowship or simply for people to hang around and enjoy their own church premises, or even use the packed toilets.

If you were part of a big organisation with such a small building, who suffers? Everyone, from the Pastor who preach the same message 6 times a week to the members who are consistently rushed from one hall to the next holding area, fighting over the limited amount of seats in the main hall.

To me, the desire for a bigger place is only reasonable. its a 12,000 seater hall, what do you expect? the price tag to be a mere 1 million? Yes, its a tad pricey for the average Singaporean.. but we’re talking housing about close to 30,000 people in a single seating.

City Harvest is amazingly bold for a church.. I wish I was part of them, and the magnificent building they are going to have.

Jealous, much?

(:

I thought god himself said to give money to the poor, all talk only…spend on themselves

Nick, I’m not sure which god you are referring to when you say “god says”…but as far as I know, all the major religion emphasize helping the poor and needy, and not giving money to the poor.

In this regards, CHC has a team of 8 full-time staff and more than 700 volunteers going their rounds in helping the poor and needy in the society. It is in fact, a bigger welfare organization than even many government or government –related bodies. The size and magnitude of the organization is still growing day and day, and if CHC does not have a passion in serving the poor and needy, would it plough and contribute so much in terms of money and efforts to our poor and needy?

You might also like to know that beyond Singapore, they had also contributed greatly to the relief efforts of the tsunami victims (in terms of money, manpower and time), and they are doing the same now for the Haiti’s earthquake victims as well.

So, while CHC is doing their silent part, what have you been doing, our dear Nick? Just sitting back in your nice armchair and being a cyber critic will not help the poor!

And if you are not contributing anything, then at least don’t hypocritically criticize on matters that you yourself do not even have a conviction in, OK?