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	<title>Comments on: It is involvement that creates identity</title>
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		<title>By: Mustard</title>
		<link>http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/02/it-is-involvement-that-creates-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-266765</link>
		<dc:creator>Mustard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Dec 2011 04:14:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>This is a good article. Are we a society mature enough for so many immigrants to assimilate and inculcate the Singaporean pride and mindset or is it going to be the other way of influence? Amongst several unfortunate experiences with &#039;foreign talents&#039; I was screamed by a PRC lady once at the MRT station because she jumped queue while I was still being served by the officer and I had to remind her that I am still being served yet being responded by screaming and hurling of abusive Mandarin. Do I scream back or just ignore? I did the latter because I know I am a Singaporean of higher standard of conduct. How many of us and for how long we could accept uncouth behaviour? Can&#039;t beat them so join them? I know I will never yield to the pressure but I know am very unhappy with what has become and what is to come.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a good article. Are we a society mature enough for so many immigrants to assimilate and inculcate the Singaporean pride and mindset or is it going to be the other way of influence? Amongst several unfortunate experiences with &#8216;foreign talents&#8217; I was screamed by a PRC lady once at the MRT station because she jumped queue while I was still being served by the officer and I had to remind her that I am still being served yet being responded by screaming and hurling of abusive Mandarin. Do I scream back or just ignore? I did the latter because I know I am a Singaporean of higher standard of conduct. How many of us and for how long we could accept uncouth behaviour? Can&#8217;t beat them so join them? I know I will never yield to the pressure but I know am very unhappy with what has become and what is to come.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/02/it-is-involvement-that-creates-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-237413</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Sep 2011 15:48:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theonlinecitizen.com/?p=20212#comment-237413</guid>
		<description>Do I misunderstand but Hanson = white Australian protesting against Asian immigration.  Whereas in Singapore, no MP has taken up the mantle, instead we have many ordinary Singaporeans of all races Chinese, Indian, Malay grumbling at influx of so-called FT (some not really from so far away, and some not really talented).  

Singapore is majority ethnic CHINESE Singaporean. Probably the majority of the FT they (and also other Singaporeans of minority races) all grumble about are mostly Mainland CHINESE from PRC (but there are some FT of also other races).  

So the white Hanson vs Asian and racist Hanson vs non-racist Australians analogy may not quite apply to the situation here, you know.  

Here it seems to be CHINESE Singaporeans v Mainland CHINESE PRC nationals.  Or multi-ethnic Singaporeans vs multi-ethnic FT.  

Depends how you want to look at it, I guess.

Australia has lessons we can learn. e.g. points system for immigrants.  Why can&#039;t we have a more transparent system?  More points for family reunion, more points for grads and more points for jobs that we want immigrants to fill.  It sounds reasonable.  Instead, the benchmarks for immigrants seem to be focused on salary levels and some educational qualification.  We need a more sophisticated system like the Australian points system.

As for &#039;Singaporean culture&#039;, try talking about it and inevitably someone talks about chicken rice or chilli crab and saying &#039;lah&#039;.  So this is not high culture by any means.  If we want high culture, we have to have higher income levels for middle class.  To do that, we likely have to have fewer FT and so allow salaries to rise to levels enjoyed by north Asian countries like HK, S. Korea and Japan.  If we keep allowing immigrants in, companies benefit from lower costs in paying lower salaries, but employees suffer the lower salaries and have little time for high culture.  Only talk about chicken rice, chilli crab and say &#039;lah&#039; and grumble about FT.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do I misunderstand but Hanson = white Australian protesting against Asian immigration.  Whereas in Singapore, no MP has taken up the mantle, instead we have many ordinary Singaporeans of all races Chinese, Indian, Malay grumbling at influx of so-called FT (some not really from so far away, and some not really talented).  </p>
<p>Singapore is majority ethnic CHINESE Singaporean. Probably the majority of the FT they (and also other Singaporeans of minority races) all grumble about are mostly Mainland CHINESE from PRC (but there are some FT of also other races).  </p>
<p>So the white Hanson vs Asian and racist Hanson vs non-racist Australians analogy may not quite apply to the situation here, you know.  </p>
<p>Here it seems to be CHINESE Singaporeans v Mainland CHINESE PRC nationals.  Or multi-ethnic Singaporeans vs multi-ethnic FT.  </p>
<p>Depends how you want to look at it, I guess.</p>
<p>Australia has lessons we can learn. e.g. points system for immigrants.  Why can&#8217;t we have a more transparent system?  More points for family reunion, more points for grads and more points for jobs that we want immigrants to fill.  It sounds reasonable.  Instead, the benchmarks for immigrants seem to be focused on salary levels and some educational qualification.  We need a more sophisticated system like the Australian points system.</p>
<p>As for &#8216;Singaporean culture&#8217;, try talking about it and inevitably someone talks about chicken rice or chilli crab and saying &#8216;lah&#8217;.  So this is not high culture by any means.  If we want high culture, we have to have higher income levels for middle class.  To do that, we likely have to have fewer FT and so allow salaries to rise to levels enjoyed by north Asian countries like HK, S. Korea and Japan.  If we keep allowing immigrants in, companies benefit from lower costs in paying lower salaries, but employees suffer the lower salaries and have little time for high culture.  Only talk about chicken rice, chilli crab and say &#8216;lah&#8217; and grumble about FT.</p>
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		<title>By: The Eternal Summer of Discontent &#171; 4H&#039;s Reading Programme Blog</title>
		<link>http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/02/it-is-involvement-that-creates-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-228053</link>
		<dc:creator>The Eternal Summer of Discontent &#171; 4H&#039;s Reading Programme Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Aug 2011 14:39:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theonlinecitizen.com/?p=20212#comment-228053</guid>
		<description>[...] http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/02/it-is-involvement-that-creates-identity/  Like this:LikeBe the first to like this post.    Categories: Group 5        Comments (0) Trackbacks (0) Leave a comment Trackback [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] <a href="http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/02/it-is-involvement-that-creates-identity/" rel="nofollow">http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/02/it-is-involvement-that-creates-identity/</a>  Like this:LikeBe the first to like this post.    Categories: Group 5        Comments (0) Trackbacks (0) Leave a comment Trackback [...]</p>
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		<title>By: dsadas</title>
		<link>http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/02/it-is-involvement-that-creates-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-177067</link>
		<dc:creator>dsadas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Feb 2011 05:31:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theonlinecitizen.com/?p=20212#comment-177067</guid>
		<description>&quot;that a unique Singaporean culture will eventually develop over time.&quot;

Suppressing  UK,Japan,America,Korea,Taiwan,Australia, switzerland,finland,new zealand, or any other country&#039;s citizens into minority and import many foreigners will eventually develop a unique culture over time,too.
There is a reason why these countries didnt do so.
In singapore current situation( about half or more of the population is made up of foreigners), if such a culture ever were to develop, it will probably be third world standard sort coming from philippine or parkistan which I find it more of a disgrace than be proud of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;that a unique Singaporean culture will eventually develop over time.&#8221;</p>
<p>Suppressing  UK,Japan,America,Korea,Taiwan,Australia, switzerland,finland,new zealand, or any other country&#8217;s citizens into minority and import many foreigners will eventually develop a unique culture over time,too.<br />
There is a reason why these countries didnt do so.<br />
In singapore current situation( about half or more of the population is made up of foreigners), if such a culture ever were to develop, it will probably be third world standard sort coming from philippine or parkistan which I find it more of a disgrace than be proud of it.</p>
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		<title>By: RW</title>
		<link>http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/02/it-is-involvement-that-creates-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-131110</link>
		<dc:creator>RW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 18:28:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theonlinecitizen.com/?p=20212#comment-131110</guid>
		<description>@ curious
 
i agree in that case, it is a ticking timebomb.
 
but where we differ is how to handle a bomb. Rather than just let it explode and harm people, i think the better way is to contain the situation and diffuse the bomb- i.e. through education etc. it is easy to be dismissive, but if you and your family are one of the minorities that suffer the brunt of it, i am sure things will be different.
 
@zft
 
true,there are upsides to discourse- maturing of society and all.
i guess we agree that there can be upsides and downsides to open discourse and it&#039;s silly to go to either extremes- open and close discourse. it&#039;s all about balancing, so i guess it&#039;s about finding the right point.
 
currently, restriction on racial discourse is limited to inflammatory comments. no one is stopping anyone from initiating inter-racial dialogue, inter-cultural exchanges etc.
 
Is it being overcautious that Singaporeans are prevented from insulting each other and being racial intolerent? Will Singaporean&#039;s maturity be stunted if they are not allowed to insult each other?
 </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ curious<br />
 <br />
i agree in that case, it is a ticking timebomb.<br />
 <br />
but where we differ is how to handle a bomb. Rather than just let it explode and harm people, i think the better way is to contain the situation and diffuse the bomb- i.e. through education etc. it is easy to be dismissive, but if you and your family are one of the minorities that suffer the brunt of it, i am sure things will be different.<br />
 <br />
@zft<br />
 <br />
true,there are upsides to discourse- maturing of society and all.<br />
i guess we agree that there can be upsides and downsides to open discourse and it&#8217;s silly to go to either extremes- open and close discourse. it&#8217;s all about balancing, so i guess it&#8217;s about finding the right point.<br />
 <br />
currently, restriction on racial discourse is limited to inflammatory comments. no one is stopping anyone from initiating inter-racial dialogue, inter-cultural exchanges etc.<br />
 <br />
Is it being overcautious that Singaporeans are prevented from insulting each other and being racial intolerent? Will Singaporean&#8217;s maturity be stunted if they are not allowed to insult each other?<br />
 </p>
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		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/02/it-is-involvement-that-creates-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-131101</link>
		<dc:creator>anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:34:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theonlinecitizen.com/?p=20212#comment-131101</guid>
		<description>What a pity.. You should&#039;d shaved at the least.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a pity.. You should&#8217;d shaved at the least.</p>
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		<title>By: Tan Beng Sim</title>
		<link>http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/02/it-is-involvement-that-creates-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-131099</link>
		<dc:creator>Tan Beng Sim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:22:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theonlinecitizen.com/?p=20212#comment-131099</guid>
		<description>Generally, singaporeans are Not Involved.
After 50 years, they are the same basically.

This is a Unique situation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Generally, singaporeans are Not Involved.<br />
After 50 years, they are the same basically.</p>
<p>This is a Unique situation.</p>
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		<title>By: HL</title>
		<link>http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/02/it-is-involvement-that-creates-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-131096</link>
		<dc:creator>HL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:59:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theonlinecitizen.com/?p=20212#comment-131096</guid>
		<description>Thank you all for your comments. Wish I can respond adequately, but maybe to touch on some that have touched me (funny bone or otherwise)...
anon, I do assure you that the girl was not hitting on me - I sported a good-haircut-and-shave-is-in-order look back then (yup, AU$26 for a visit to the barber was just too much).
Sze Keen, I do not think Australia, NZ or any country has a perfect handle on racist within their own shores, only that I doubt we had enough opportunity to express ourselves to know what we stand for, beyond a constructed image, to even be able to say &quot;we are multi-racial&quot; without blushing.
My View, Chee Wai, if you&#039;d let me choose, I&#039;d say I&#039;m both mad and naive. But if that be the case, then we all are, for we are already participating in precisely what I am advocating - set up a public sphere, don&#039;t dictate who is already wrong or right, and let the debate flow. But consider beyond what I have written, for we shd be doing this for every issue that matters to us, rather than let sides be defined for us in advanced.
Might seem like I am prescribing a descent into chaos. But I challenge that the notion of no-holds-bared debate seems daunting and frightening to some Singaporeans, only because we have not let it become a part of our lives to discuss things openly. Some argue it is not our &quot;Asian culture&quot; to do so. I say we have never given ourselves the opportunity to try to make things meaningful for our selves.
Bo Chap, pls don&#039;t be. There is a lot that we can call our own in this country, as long as we are willing to take it into our own hand to do something. Never believed in the apathetic mumbo jumbo we have been preached, have seen a lot of passionate people to know this for sure.
Singaporedaddy, I have other (perhaps more nasty) things to say about the media. But in this case, I&#039;d rather appreciate the wave they have created, good and bad, for both sides of the issue. Yes, Hanson&#039;s views were hyped, but I believe it was also the good sense of a debating public that brought it back down to earth, for it is in the minds of people that public opinion matters, not in what the media says.
Btw, do hope you have the time to read a more moderate piece by &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.todayonline.com/Weekendvoices/POV/EDC100220-0000058/Cherishing-and-respecting-diversity&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Eugene Tan in last Weekend&#039;s Today&lt;/a&gt;. I am agreeable with this specific quote: &quot;Allowing for mature, robust and critical discussion and debate is often the best way to deal with lies and myths. More principled and well-informed speech is needed, not less speech.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you all for your comments. Wish I can respond adequately, but maybe to touch on some that have touched me (funny bone or otherwise)&#8230;<br />
anon, I do assure you that the girl was not hitting on me &#8211; I sported a good-haircut-and-shave-is-in-order look back then (yup, AU$26 for a visit to the barber was just too much).<br />
Sze Keen, I do not think Australia, NZ or any country has a perfect handle on racist within their own shores, only that I doubt we had enough opportunity to express ourselves to know what we stand for, beyond a constructed image, to even be able to say &#8220;we are multi-racial&#8221; without blushing.<br />
My View, Chee Wai, if you&#8217;d let me choose, I&#8217;d say I&#8217;m both mad and naive. But if that be the case, then we all are, for we are already participating in precisely what I am advocating &#8211; set up a public sphere, don&#8217;t dictate who is already wrong or right, and let the debate flow. But consider beyond what I have written, for we shd be doing this for every issue that matters to us, rather than let sides be defined for us in advanced.<br />
Might seem like I am prescribing a descent into chaos. But I challenge that the notion of no-holds-bared debate seems daunting and frightening to some Singaporeans, only because we have not let it become a part of our lives to discuss things openly. Some argue it is not our &#8220;Asian culture&#8221; to do so. I say we have never given ourselves the opportunity to try to make things meaningful for our selves.<br />
Bo Chap, pls don&#8217;t be. There is a lot that we can call our own in this country, as long as we are willing to take it into our own hand to do something. Never believed in the apathetic mumbo jumbo we have been preached, have seen a lot of passionate people to know this for sure.<br />
Singaporedaddy, I have other (perhaps more nasty) things to say about the media. But in this case, I&#8217;d rather appreciate the wave they have created, good and bad, for both sides of the issue. Yes, Hanson&#8217;s views were hyped, but I believe it was also the good sense of a debating public that brought it back down to earth, for it is in the minds of people that public opinion matters, not in what the media says.<br />
Btw, do hope you have the time to read a more moderate piece by <a href="http://www.todayonline.com/Weekendvoices/POV/EDC100220-0000058/Cherishing-and-respecting-diversity" rel="nofollow">Eugene Tan in last Weekend&#8217;s Today</a>. I am agreeable with this specific quote: &#8220;Allowing for mature, robust and critical discussion and debate is often the best way to deal with lies and myths. More principled and well-informed speech is needed, not less speech.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: shibuyume</title>
		<link>http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/02/it-is-involvement-that-creates-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-131065</link>
		<dc:creator>shibuyume</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:54:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theonlinecitizen.com/?p=20212#comment-131065</guid>
		<description>some of the problems with taking up or debating about social/public issues:
1) remember the Catherine Lim saga? She was told that she has to be a politician to talk about things. In Singapore, you can&#039;t think or express opinions; you have to be &quot;quallified&quot;, you have to be &quot;eligible&quot;. Free speech in Singapore is allowed, please apply for permission, that is. That&#039;s how the Speaker&#039;s Corner operate too, btw.

2) Which brings me to this point, that to be a president, you also have to &quot;qualify&quot; for nomination. With those criteria, Barrack Obama can&#039;t be the president of Singapore, btw. 

3) Very strict and blanket libel laws that puts the burden of proof on the defendant, instead of on the prosecutor. We are prolly a rare case of more developed economies with archaic libel/slander laws, and of course, the prosecutor stands a very high chance of winning. I won&#039;t even talk about who gets the post of being a judge or Chief of Justice. I vaguely remember that a Queen&#039;s Counsel was rejected to represent the defendant....that&#039;s quite duh. 

4) People are deemed stupid, lazy and inferior to the ruling elites. We are not drilled to believe that we are unable to make sound and good decisions, hence we need to pay exorbitant amounts of money to ensure that life goes on for us. That&#039;s the exact justification that the Fortune 500 CEO uses. Do you think Goldman Sachs will bankrupt if they paid their CEO less? Or BoA for that matter? The truth is, no. But you are made to believe that without them, everything will collapse and burn in hell. The truth is, they are threatening you and making you pay a ransom, for something that they dun even have as collateral. 

US is already being held at ransom by Corporate America, but Singapore is being held at ransom by their own politicans, who are also Corporate Singapore too, btw. In US, at least Corporate has to waste money to lobby and bribe the politicians; Singapore on the other hand, has an express way to achieve the same outcome. 

5) People are too afraid to talk about politics, or have no time for that matter. With the costs of living so high, with hours at work topping the world, nobody has the time nor energy to talk about politics and stuff. Let&#039;s just pay the bills and get some sleep ok? Don&#039;t talk about things that we have no way to get involved. How many Singaporeans who are still alive now got to vote? If so, how many times in their lifetimes, and when?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>some of the problems with taking up or debating about social/public issues:<br />
1) remember the Catherine Lim saga? She was told that she has to be a politician to talk about things. In Singapore, you can&#8217;t think or express opinions; you have to be &#8220;quallified&#8221;, you have to be &#8220;eligible&#8221;. Free speech in Singapore is allowed, please apply for permission, that is. That&#8217;s how the Speaker&#8217;s Corner operate too, btw.</p>
<p>2) Which brings me to this point, that to be a president, you also have to &#8220;qualify&#8221; for nomination. With those criteria, Barrack Obama can&#8217;t be the president of Singapore, btw. </p>
<p>3) Very strict and blanket libel laws that puts the burden of proof on the defendant, instead of on the prosecutor. We are prolly a rare case of more developed economies with archaic libel/slander laws, and of course, the prosecutor stands a very high chance of winning. I won&#8217;t even talk about who gets the post of being a judge or Chief of Justice. I vaguely remember that a Queen&#8217;s Counsel was rejected to represent the defendant&#8230;.that&#8217;s quite duh. </p>
<p>4) People are deemed stupid, lazy and inferior to the ruling elites. We are not drilled to believe that we are unable to make sound and good decisions, hence we need to pay exorbitant amounts of money to ensure that life goes on for us. That&#8217;s the exact justification that the Fortune 500 CEO uses. Do you think Goldman Sachs will bankrupt if they paid their CEO less? Or BoA for that matter? The truth is, no. But you are made to believe that without them, everything will collapse and burn in hell. The truth is, they are threatening you and making you pay a ransom, for something that they dun even have as collateral. </p>
<p>US is already being held at ransom by Corporate America, but Singapore is being held at ransom by their own politicans, who are also Corporate Singapore too, btw. In US, at least Corporate has to waste money to lobby and bribe the politicians; Singapore on the other hand, has an express way to achieve the same outcome. </p>
<p>5) People are too afraid to talk about politics, or have no time for that matter. With the costs of living so high, with hours at work topping the world, nobody has the time nor energy to talk about politics and stuff. Let&#8217;s just pay the bills and get some sleep ok? Don&#8217;t talk about things that we have no way to get involved. How many Singaporeans who are still alive now got to vote? If so, how many times in their lifetimes, and when?</p>
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		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/02/it-is-involvement-that-creates-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-131050</link>
		<dc:creator>anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 12:28:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theonlinecitizen.com/?p=20212#comment-131050</guid>
		<description>Howard, maybe the Caucasian girl was hitting on you..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Howard, maybe the Caucasian girl was hitting on you..</p>
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		<title>By: Local talent - pap supporter</title>
		<link>http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/02/it-is-involvement-that-creates-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-131035</link>
		<dc:creator>Local talent - pap supporter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 09:23:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theonlinecitizen.com/?p=20212#comment-131035</guid>
		<description>&#039;stuck in my mind was this one fact: the girl was Caucasian.&#039;
Could be from anywhere, originally. Eastern European origin? Just wondering only.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;stuck in my mind was this one fact: the girl was Caucasian.&#8217;<br />
Could be from anywhere, originally. Eastern European origin? Just wondering only.</p>
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		<title>By: Curious</title>
		<link>http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/02/it-is-involvement-that-creates-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-131034</link>
		<dc:creator>Curious</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 09:04:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theonlinecitizen.com/?p=20212#comment-131034</guid>
		<description>&quot; After all public discourse&quot;, I would assume ,  means open debates had been done by all parties-- the voices of all---the liberals, moderates, conservatives, scholars, and men in streets are heard. By itself, it is an educational process. 

And if the eventual winners are the bigots and the xenophobs, it just showed the state of that society.

By &quot;regulating&quot; the outcome, aren&#039;t you planting a time bomb </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8221; After all public discourse&#8221;, I would assume ,  means open debates had been done by all parties&#8211; the voices of all&#8212;the liberals, moderates, conservatives, scholars, and men in streets are heard. By itself, it is an educational process. </p>
<p>And if the eventual winners are the bigots and the xenophobs, it just showed the state of that society.</p>
<p>By &#8220;regulating&#8221; the outcome, aren&#8217;t you planting a time bomb </p>
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		<title>By: A student</title>
		<link>http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/02/it-is-involvement-that-creates-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-131016</link>
		<dc:creator>A student</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 05:39:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theonlinecitizen.com/?p=20212#comment-131016</guid>
		<description>Hello Curious,

The purpose of studying history is to learn from its mistakes and hopefully not make the same ones. I certainly disagree with you, that we should allow &quot;history to take its course,&quot; for that will be disastrous. Like what RW said, the question would be, how to regulate the process such that a &quot;happy outcome&quot; would ensue. However, i do recognize that such manipulation would deem it rather contrary to the proposed process itself, but i argue that it would be a good start. Scholars of democracy recognize that an essential component of a liberal democracy is an educated middle class. My argument here is that govt policies are stifling such a development. The concentration on maths and the sciences are reducing the talent out there for the social sciences, which is important insofar as the development of a liberal democracy is to be successful. Only with proper education would the &quot;voice of the moderates and conservatives&quot; be louder than bigots and xenophobs. 

Open discourse has its obvious draws, but without an educated public, wouldnt it be like the blind leading the blind?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Curious,</p>
<p>The purpose of studying history is to learn from its mistakes and hopefully not make the same ones. I certainly disagree with you, that we should allow &#8220;history to take its course,&#8221; for that will be disastrous. Like what RW said, the question would be, how to regulate the process such that a &#8220;happy outcome&#8221; would ensue. However, i do recognize that such manipulation would deem it rather contrary to the proposed process itself, but i argue that it would be a good start. Scholars of democracy recognize that an essential component of a liberal democracy is an educated middle class. My argument here is that govt policies are stifling such a development. The concentration on maths and the sciences are reducing the talent out there for the social sciences, which is important insofar as the development of a liberal democracy is to be successful. Only with proper education would the &#8220;voice of the moderates and conservatives&#8221; be louder than bigots and xenophobs. </p>
<p>Open discourse has its obvious draws, but without an educated public, wouldnt it be like the blind leading the blind?</p>
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		<title>By: Singaporedaddy</title>
		<link>http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/02/it-is-involvement-that-creates-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-131015</link>
		<dc:creator>Singaporedaddy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 05:29:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theonlinecitizen.com/?p=20212#comment-131015</guid>
		<description>Good afternoon all,

Most interesting piece. Refreshing in it POV and genuine that I find myself nodding to this excellent article.  

However, I do suspect the media plays a major role here in determining our levels of perception concerning racial divide. 

It&#039;s very hard to say whether the tail wags the dog or whether its the other way round i.e if the media did not blow it up will we even be worked up by it - if one takes the trouble to look at the curious case of Pauline Hanson could she possibly have gain such notoriety without the assistance of the hype and spin the media offered her in terms of air time, bandwidth etc -the same holds true for stereotypical depictions that he often harbor about black people, muslims and even some one who may not share the same cultural back ground and values as us.

The cure for this to try to understand there may be other ways of seeing the world, as the saying goes, &quot;if everyone reads the same books, then don&#039;t be surprise, if they end up thinking the same way&quot; - this I admit based on personal experience may even be easier said than done - seeing other worlds within worlds requires patience, intelligence and a certain level of curiosity. 

To me the question is can we even afford not to see the otherside? 

The cost of not seeing beyonds one&#039;s world may IMHO be a very high one, we may even just end up being so parochial, narrow minded and blinkered that we don&#039;t even realize that there is a whole wide world out there beyond the traditional black and white distinction. 

A good illustration of how things can go so wrong is when values, beliefs and philosophies are not aligned is IMHO very well documented in this article that the brotherhood press has written.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://dotseng.wordpress.com/2010/02/20/why-the-chinese-are-scared-shit-of-the-dalai-lama/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://dotseng.wordpress.com/2010/02/20/why-the-chinese-are-scared-shit-of-the-dalai-lama/&lt;/a&gt;

Do have a very productive week ahead

SD (The Internet Liaison officer of the Brotherhood - sponsored by the Interspacing Mercantile Guild) 

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good afternoon all,</p>
<p>Most interesting piece. Refreshing in it POV and genuine that I find myself nodding to this excellent article.  </p>
<p>However, I do suspect the media plays a major role here in determining our levels of perception concerning racial divide. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s very hard to say whether the tail wags the dog or whether its the other way round i.e if the media did not blow it up will we even be worked up by it - if one takes the trouble to look at the curious case of Pauline Hanson could she possibly have gain such notoriety without the assistance of the hype and spin the media offered her in terms of air time, bandwidth etc -the same holds true for stereotypical depictions that he often harbor about black people, muslims and even some one who may not share the same cultural back ground and values as us.</p>
<p>The cure for this to try to understand there may be other ways of seeing the world, as the saying goes, &#8221;if everyone reads the same books, then don&#8217;t be surprise, if they end up thinking the same way&#8221; - this I admit based on personal experience may even be easier said than done &#8211; seeing other worlds within worlds requires patience, intelligence and a certain level of curiosity. </p>
<p>To me the question is can we even afford not to see the otherside? </p>
<p>The cost of not seeing beyonds one&#8217;s world may IMHO be a very high one, we may even just end up being so parochial, narrow minded and blinkered that we don&#8217;t even realize that there is a whole wide world out there beyond the traditional black and white distinction. </p>
<p>A good illustration of how things can go so wrong is when values, beliefs and philosophies are not aligned is IMHO very well documented in this article that the brotherhood press has written.</p>
<p><a href="http://dotseng.wordpress.com/2010/02/20/why-the-chinese-are-scared-shit-of-the-dalai-lama/" rel="nofollow">http://dotseng.wordpress.com/2010/02/20/why-the-chinese-are-scared-shit-of-the-dalai-lama/</a></p>
<p>Do have a very productive week ahead</p>
<p>SD (The Internet Liaison officer of the Brotherhood &#8211; sponsored by the Interspacing Mercantile Guild)</p>
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		<title>By: Curious</title>
		<link>http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/02/it-is-involvement-that-creates-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-131002</link>
		<dc:creator>Curious</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 03:53:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theonlinecitizen.com/?p=20212#comment-131002</guid>
		<description>@RW

If your &quot;bad endings&quot; means the racial majority had its ways after all public discourse, than what&#039;s next?

I say, if that&#039;s what happen, let history takes its course. Let Australia go back to become the South Africa of the 60&#039;s and 70s. Go back 30-50 years. And they will get it right the next time!

If you had not gone thru this process, you are just sweeping your dirt under the carpet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@RW</p>
<p>If your &#8220;bad endings&#8221; means the racial majority had its ways after all public discourse, than what&#8217;s next?</p>
<p>I say, if that&#8217;s what happen, let history takes its course. Let Australia go back to become the South Africa of the 60&#8242;s and 70s. Go back 30-50 years. And they will get it right the next time!</p>
<p>If you had not gone thru this process, you are just sweeping your dirt under the carpet.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/02/it-is-involvement-that-creates-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-131000</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 03:45:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theonlinecitizen.com/?p=20212#comment-131000</guid>
		<description>Without practice, anything is meaningless. So it is with democracy and active citizenry etc etc,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Without practice, anything is meaningless. So it is with democracy and active citizenry etc etc,</p>
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		<title>By: elmo</title>
		<link>http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/02/it-is-involvement-that-creates-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-130999</link>
		<dc:creator>elmo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 03:43:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theonlinecitizen.com/?p=20212#comment-130999</guid>
		<description>i would trade in my sg passport for any europe passport anytime. sg is so small and resourceless. sg is in between two big countries infested with terrorists. think out of the box.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i would trade in my sg passport for any europe passport anytime. sg is so small and resourceless. sg is in between two big countries infested with terrorists. think out of the box.</p>
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		<title>By: catlover</title>
		<link>http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/02/it-is-involvement-that-creates-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-130993</link>
		<dc:creator>catlover</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 03:13:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theonlinecitizen.com/?p=20212#comment-130993</guid>
		<description>Sure there is racism not only in US, but also here. I experienced it in Uni in the US. But that cannot be all of the story. Only fifty percent. As most people are pretty level headed. When I went to Shanghai to work. I noticed all my Chinese co-workers seem to think the Americans and Europeans look down on them, so they started becoming really defensive and aggressive. Isnt that a form of racism?

Look at how the PRC chinese reacted to the dalai lama&#039;s visit. Isn&#039;t that a form of racism as well?

&lt;a href=&quot;http://dotseng.wordpress.com/2010/02/20/why-the-chinese-are-scared-shit-of-the-dalai-lama/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://dotseng.wordpress.com/2010/02/20/why-the-chinese-are-scared-shit-of-the-dalai-lama/&lt;/a&gt;

Or maybe there is something cheemer at work. You decide for yourself.



</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure there is racism not only in US, but also here. I experienced it in Uni in the US. But that cannot be all of the story. Only fifty percent. As most people are pretty level headed. When I went to Shanghai to work. I noticed all my Chinese co-workers seem to think the Americans and Europeans look down on them, so they started becoming really defensive and aggressive. Isnt that a form of racism?</p>
<p>Look at how the PRC chinese reacted to the dalai lama&#8217;s visit. Isn&#8217;t that a form of racism as well?</p>
<p><a href="http://dotseng.wordpress.com/2010/02/20/why-the-chinese-are-scared-shit-of-the-dalai-lama/" rel="nofollow">http://dotseng.wordpress.com/2010/02/20/why-the-chinese-are-scared-shit-of-the-dalai-lama/</a></p>
<p>Or maybe there is something cheemer at work. You decide for yourself.</p>
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		<title>By: zft</title>
		<link>http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/02/it-is-involvement-that-creates-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-130992</link>
		<dc:creator>zft</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 03:12:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theonlinecitizen.com/?p=20212#comment-130992</guid>
		<description>@jw
&lt;em&gt;What if racist people make the majority of the population and discourse swings that way, should we allow the tyranny of majority? Should we allow racists attacks and derogatory remarks in the name of open discourse?&lt;/em&gt;
I&#039;d say that not all outcomes are equally worth preserving, and that some, even if achieved and supported by a democratic majority, would surely be deserving of moral condemnation and shame by outsiders. If the outcome is as blatantly racist as the White Australia policy in the 1970s, I am of the opinion that the policy should be condemned. But the more important and trickier question is: what do we do about it then? How do we persuade the government and the public to repeal it without violating democracy in itself? I have no ready answer to this. Perhaps we simply have to let these nations bear the consequences of their choices, and hope that outsiders will bring about enough moral pressure to get them to repeal it themselves, without material coercion. Of course, that is an ideal far, far away from what we have now.
Tyranny of the majority is not defensible in the context of openly racist policies, I agree. In the French and Swiss cases, I agree with you that those who accept the process as more important than the outcome have to bear the consequences of that choice, good or bad. I have no illusions regarding the assumption that open discourse will always lead to good endings, but in relation to the Singaporean context, no discourse is harmful to us in dimensions other than the &quot;good ending&quot; of &quot;stability and harmony&quot;. Stability at what cost? An infantilised, &quot;tolerant&quot; society who has been told to tolerate, but whose only justification is that the government told us to do it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@jw<br />
<em>What if racist people make the majority of the population and discourse swings that way, should we allow the tyranny of majority? Should we allow racists attacks and derogatory remarks in the name of open discourse?</em><br />
I&#8217;d say that not all outcomes are equally worth preserving, and that some, even if achieved and supported by a democratic majority, would surely be deserving of moral condemnation and shame by outsiders. If the outcome is as blatantly racist as the White Australia policy in the 1970s, I am of the opinion that the policy should be condemned. But the more important and trickier question is: what do we do about it then? How do we persuade the government and the public to repeal it without violating democracy in itself? I have no ready answer to this. Perhaps we simply have to let these nations bear the consequences of their choices, and hope that outsiders will bring about enough moral pressure to get them to repeal it themselves, without material coercion. Of course, that is an ideal far, far away from what we have now.<br />
Tyranny of the majority is not defensible in the context of openly racist policies, I agree. In the French and Swiss cases, I agree with you that those who accept the process as more important than the outcome have to bear the consequences of that choice, good or bad. I have no illusions regarding the assumption that open discourse will always lead to good endings, but in relation to the Singaporean context, no discourse is harmful to us in dimensions other than the &#8220;good ending&#8221; of &#8220;stability and harmony&#8221;. Stability at what cost? An infantilised, &#8220;tolerant&#8221; society who has been told to tolerate, but whose only justification is that the government told us to do it?</p>
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		<title>By: RW</title>
		<link>http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/02/it-is-involvement-that-creates-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-130989</link>
		<dc:creator>RW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 02:55:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theonlinecitizen.com/?p=20212#comment-130989</guid>
		<description>@zft
 
i agree not all open discourses lead to &#039;bad endings&#039;. As you rightly point out, there are many cases of peaceful co-existence and maturity. But i&#039;m sure you will admit not all open discourses lead to &#039;happy endings&#039; as well.
 
As i mentioned before, it assumes that there is a majority of reasonable people who will drown out the voices of the racists and the intolerent. Is that always true? Again, What if racist people make the majority of the population and discourse swings that way, should we allow the tyranny of majority? Should we allow racists attacks and derogatory remarks in the name of open discourse? 


If we place process over outcome, we should accept whatever open discourse leads us to- be it a more mature society or a more oppressive society. The French president called for national dialogue on french identity and started a maelstorm of anti-immigrant rhetoric. The Swiss voted to ban minarets on mosques. What open dialogue led to in these cases is the tyranny of the majority and a smaller space for minorities. 
 
Now, my main point is not to mimic the govt&#039;s position that it will &lt;em&gt;always lead to a bad ending. Instead, my main point (in relation to this article) is I disagree with the liberal, idealistic assumption that dialogue and open discourse will always lead to a good ending. Process and outcomes are two separate things. Just like democracy can give you good &amp; bad govt, so can open discourse lead to harmony and disharmony. &lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@zft<br />
 <br />
i agree not all open discourses lead to &#8216;bad endings&#8217;. As you rightly point out, there are many cases of peaceful co-existence and maturity. But i&#8217;m sure you will admit not all open discourses lead to &#8216;happy endings&#8217; as well.<br />
 <br />
As i mentioned before, it assumes that there is a majority of reasonable people who will drown out the voices of the racists and the intolerent. Is that always true? Again, What if racist people make the majority of the population and discourse swings that way, should we allow the tyranny of majority? Should we allow racists attacks and derogatory remarks in the name of open discourse? </p>
<p>If we place process over outcome, we should accept whatever open discourse leads us to- be it a more mature society or a more oppressive society. The French president called for national dialogue on french identity and started a maelstorm of anti-immigrant rhetoric. The Swiss voted to ban minarets on mosques. What open dialogue led to in these cases is the tyranny of the majority and a smaller space for minorities.<br />
 <br />
Now, my main point is not to mimic the govt&#8217;s position that it will <em>always lead to a bad ending. Instead, my main point (in relation to this article) is I disagree with the liberal, idealistic assumption that dialogue and open discourse will always lead to a good ending. Process and outcomes are two separate things. Just like democracy can give you good &amp; bad govt, so can open discourse lead to harmony and disharmony. </em></p>
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