He stuck to his guns, made no apology for what he said, and instead reminded gay and lesbian Singaporeans that they were criminals in the eyes of the law.
HELP keep the voice of TOC alive!
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I am not God; I can’t command God to come down and meet you nor produce any miracles for you. I can show you God through the lives that did become better through him.
oh please, you can’t command god because this god don’t exist at all. period. it is as simple as that.
the only “miracles” you claim to perform is not even exclusive to your faith. healings? even non religious get “healed” for no apparent reasons which baffle physicians. what about so many other faiths who also perform this kind of “miracles”?
pls.
your bible can do much better than that. now show us some REAL MIRACLES like…maybe you can step on the waters in your bathtub for a min huh? hopefully that won’t be too much to ask since jesus walked on waters? LOLOL
Your interpretion of religion is severely misinterpreted. It what religious people can do for God (orthodox sense) and not the selfish aims we want God to do for us.
A warning 1st: Your talk is getting rapidly seditious. By insulting all faiths and going further down this road, you might going in for coffee break with ISD
what is so SEDITIOUS to ask you to PROVE huh? you dare to MAKE ALL THOSE CLAIMS, the authorities ought to SUE your kind for deceiving people! LOL
LoL and irony,
Please keep it impersonal. Some of your comments have been disallowed.
Thanks!
CMON TOC, your kind are copping out. is that the kind of singaporeans we have breed?
a bunch of CHICKENS LIKE RONY TAN. lol
Moderating Editor: We have to act in the interests of discourse and not that of trolls. Unfortunately, we feel you have crossed over to the latter category and therefore decided to end the exchange between yourself and LoL. There are many places on the internet which you could approach for answers and proof of religious belief, thanks.
Because as much as you have your rights to have your religion and be free to practise it without persecution, others who are atheists have the same right to live life without religious influence. And that includes the right of the atheist to reject any religious view , including its stand on moral issues.Do not force your beliefs on others.
We need to recognise that many lonely, attention seeking losers (eg; Avast) revolve around cyberspace to forge themselves an identity and post inflammatory remarks to feed their own broken ego and life.
No, don’t even pity them. Ignore them. When you ignore their existence, they perish. The massive idiocy, hate and stupidity contained in their posts are self evident. No need to debate with them.
We live in Singapore, a place where blatant cronyism, discrimination, double-standards..etc exist. How can one defend oneself fairly when this city state company is run by morons and therein encourages those low-lives to fester into similar clones from its population for survival. It’s akin to telling a blood sucking vampire to forgo blood and drink tomato juice instead. No-brainer.
Imagine vampire x-tians (like in the movie, Daybreakers), all smug and hole-ly, pretending to be “normal” and “god-loving” a species, but in a second, turn into voracious feeding monsters on the very humanity that eludes them; and yet refuses to admit that anything is wrong. Hypocrites !
X-tians=bottom feeders. >:E~
Beware. They are all around us. Most love to post, some carry microphones but most scary of all, many run the country and make laws. Now Shut Up And Feed ! <:E~ Yum !
Lighthouse! what a misnomer lar. So unenlightened is this not-so-intelligent pastor and he has the audacity to use the pulpit to foment a divisive society lar or stupidly assuming exclusivenss of wisdom. Moreover, it seems more like a publicity stunt and it is a shame that the mainstream media and TR is magnifying it lar.
Frankly, one’s sexual orientation – whether by birth, biology or acquired is nobody’s business AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT ENCROACH ON ANOTHER TO BE AS HE/SHE FEELS SUITED TO BE.
To make oneself ”right” by making another ”wrong” does NOT in any way invalidate the other’s existence.
The wise would see thru the hypocrisy of this so-called pastor.
If he was really religious he would understand, accept that it takes all kinds and allow and though he may not and does not have to approve he would adopt a stance of tolerance and inclusiveness. His stance is that of bigotry and a prejudiced mind projecting itself.
Beware, behind the cloak of religiosity is a politician
”Scriptures” of any form be it the Bible, koran, Torah … were all written aeons ago and today it is 2010 lar, utterly dense to live and assume that one is being holy by simply adopting it verbatim lar.
The thing that one ought to question is if he is BEING Christian (or whatever he proclaims to be) or simply using the label/badge of Christianity (or ???)
PS – was Rony Tan born a Christian? it was also acquired.
is the aim of having a growing number of congregation & the need for more money to house an ever expanding congregation a sin in a sense?
S’pore may be a wealthy country, but to know that there will lways be people who fall in-between the cracks of welfare & not help them for 1 reason or another is a sad reflection of apathy. must these people share the same religious believe to be given help? or are those who sinned for the lust for power in a neverending quest admit they strayed from The Path?
afterall, the path to hell is paved with good intentions. it does seem like those who trumpet on their ‘only way’, indeed got lost & they don’t even know it!
Lol
The reason for my post about good and evil done in the name of religion is simply this.
Morality is not an exclusive domain for religion. Without of without religion people still know what’s good and bad.
But if you or those that need the religion to be good, hey by all means do so.
Religion in the hand of men, can be a devastating tool. Just look at the terrorism in the name of Islam. Look at the christian war between protestant and catholic in Ireland.
Lets not remember the holy crusade and jihad.
LOL
Do you know why Third Reich comes from? First Reich refer to the holy roman empire.
HItler consider himself the ‘Aryan Christ’ and uses heavily christian elements in his Nazi movement.
So tell me does religion makes him a better person?
Jesus, whom I find a rather agreeable fellow, said: “Love Thy Neighbour”. Which of the 3 words (all???) don’t his followers understand?
Mahatma Gandhi said: “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Why did this great man say this?
From Richard Dawkins’ tour de force, The God Delusion:
“The god of the old testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacial, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. Those of us schooled from infancy in his ways ca become desensitized to their horror. A naif blessed with the perspective of innocence has a clearer perception. Winston Churchill’s son Randolph somehow contrived to remain ignorant of scripture until Evelyn Waugh and a brother officer, in a vain attempt to keep Churchill quiet when they were posted together during the war, bet him he couldn’t read the entire bible in a fortnight: ‘Unhappily it has not had the result we hoped. He has never read any of it before adn is hideously excited; keeps reading quotations aloud “I say I bet u didn’t know this came in the bible….” or merely slapping his side & chortling “God, isn’t god a shit!” Thomas Jefferson – better read – was of a similar opinion: ‘The christian god is a being of terrific character – cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust.’”
Pastor Rony should is engaging in a moral crusade. This is a weak and old tool but it is powerful on inalert souls. Moral crusading is a technique employed by cult preachers, organised religions and politicians to condescend the values of other groups that do not share similar values. Insults are hurled as a means to indicate “I have holier than thou” mindset. Such a belief stems from an obnoxious ego. Not from a heart of love. Religions produces such psyches for a number of reasons. The main problem stems from squaring the reality that a non-existential God is not observed in daily life. The religious do not know a God exist. They merely believes He does. There is a mismatch between believing something is true as opposed to knowing that something is true. To resolve this vector, the religious ego often seeks to strengthen itself by subsconciously conjuring their God into existence through subtle reminders of the moral acts and suppression they have been engaging in their lives. They want a delayed reward in heaven to be delivered here and now. Their beliefs are merely repressed doubts. And they will from time to time, morally attack you to strengthen their moral egos. There is nothing moral about a moral ego.
people who cannot accept that Christian faith calls for disapproval of homosexuality often would like to call names – Christian bigots.
i say, live and let live. you can’t change the way people think. so long as discriminatory actions are not initiated outside the context of law, i don’t see what the big deal is.
discrimination exists everywhere, in all planes, in all thoughts. gays are discriminated against in some circles as much as other groups of people are in others. sure, protest all you want, but there is nothing wrong in preaching to your own congregation the “unnatural” nature of homo.
[i]
i say, live and let live. you can’t change the way people think. so long as discriminatory actions are not initiated outside the context of law, i don’t see what the big deal is.
discrimination exists everywhere, in all planes, in all thoughts. gays are discriminated against in some circles as much as other groups of people are in others. sure, protest all you want, but there is nothing wrong in preaching to your own congregation the “unnatural” nature of homo. [/i]
what are you mubblin here? on the 1st paragraph you all in for free undiscrimination
on your 2nd you ALLOWed the church to be biased againbst gays just because he preached to his followers? wah you bet black N white chips in the casino har?
Quoted from a post by “concerned” in TR:
The Homosexual Lifestyle and Sexual Practices
A study by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control revealed that 50% of male homosexuals have had over 500 different sexual partners. For AIDS victims the average is 1,100 different sexual partners.
In one study, two homosexual researchers found that 73% of adult malehomosexuals had had sex with boys age 19 or younger.
93% report anal sexual relations.
92% report oral/anal sexual activity.
17% report eating and/or rubbing themselves with the faeces of their partners.
29% report urinating on or in their partners.
37% report sadomasochism.
42% report “handballing” or “fisting” here the hand or arm is inserted into
the rectum of their partner.
32% report bondage.
12% report giving or receiving of enemas for sexual pleasure.
15% report sex with animals.
Is this normal practice of a SANE person ??? Pastor Rony was certainly right in condemning homsexuality…look at how dirty and sickening these freaks can be!
@Kenz
Do you know why Third Reich comes from? First Reich refer to the holy roman empire.
HItler consider himself the ‘Aryan Christ’ and uses heavily christian elements in his Nazi movement.
So tell me does religion makes him a better person?
ya I do know that. The 2nd Reich is the unification of Germany by Prussia. What is so holy abou the 3rd Reich? It just echos the unification of Germans as with the earlier Reichs with no religious agenda attached to the 3rd one Otherwise, his Reich would have encompassed either all of catholic or protestant europe. He himself is not religious in any sense.
The law we have in most secular countries is based both on secular and religious principles. The crimes of any “religious” and “non-religious” person are seen equally under the law. You are right if u say that SOME may live their lives morally without religion but there are many others who did become more morally correct due to religion. No, not everyone knows what is wrong. Paedophiles, murderers, ppl who commit genocide, rapists obviously do not know what is wrong and right.
Avast,
1. That study was in 1972.
2. Problem with such studies is that nobody knows the population size of homosexuals. i.e the denominator from which the 50% is derived is likely smaller than the real figure.
3. A Google search give you results that are more likely to be hosted on ‘Christian’ websites, rather than the U.S Center of Disease itself. Why is that so?
4. Promiscuity is the main issue here, and ironically, it is the (mostly) Christians who do not wish them to be monogamous by depriving them of the right of marriage.
@ contradick
no contradiction in my post, unlike your monicker.
live and let live, if a pastor wants to preach to his receptive flock that homosexuality is UNNATURAL, let them be. they are operating within the confines of the LAW, and are not inciting hurt/violence
there is only contradiction if you want to “live and let live” and insist that people yield to your way of thinking ie homosexuality is “normal” like yours.
bigotry cuts BOTH ways.
tigger
Feb 22 2010, 15:02
live & let live? does Pastor Rony Tan practise this? or does he sow the seeds of hate to his congregation? there certainly is something very wrong to be abusing his position of influence to lead people astray. they cannot be innocently termed as “receptive flock” simply because other militant religious leaders cannot use the same line & still come across as sane.
in your next post on:
Feb 22 2010, 16:26
if you don’t see that some words of Pastor Tan are inciting hate, & does not practise “live & let live”, can people deduce that people of his congregation or similiar belief, cannot be reasoned?
religion can unit people or it can divide, so too can it cloud people’s judgement. seems like some religions only acts to re-enforce the herd mentality, can be a barrier to promote critical thinking skills (in S’pore’s context) & should be handled more robustly by ISD.
the slide down the slippery slope if its not already started, could accelerate….
Avast
Feb 22 2010, 15:47
the study that was sonducted could very well be funded by lobby groups out to discriminate against a certain segment of society.
a few things to take note of, the study is, in addition to what Lobo76 mentioned:
- not conducted in S’pore’s context,
- the margin of error of those reports,
- any study has a set of aims, & as far as studies go, they will conveniently omit other critical infomation to avoid deviating for the set of aims,
- there is no alternative studies on heterosexuals, married or otherwise to act as a “control”, hence, its largely biased.
heterosexuals are not all clean & sane or any less freakish. you see what you want to see, & if you choose only to see the uglier side of certain things (homosexuals), its your choice. btw, have you not heard of monster dads or monster stepdads who do sickening stuff to/with their daughters or stepdaughters?
a healthy mind enhances a healthy body, like food, too much infomation from one source can be a bad thing, diversity is key. or some prefer the term ‘moderation’.
@ mice is nice
“or does he sow the seeds of hate to his congregation?” – no, he categorically didn’t. I honestly don’t think people will turn to hate homosexuals after listening to him. Pity, yes. Hatred, a definite no.
“there certainly is something very wrong to be abusing his position of influence to lead people astray.” – you think this is “astray” simply because you don’t subscribe to the belief that homosexuality is UNNATURAL.
“they cannot be innocently termed as “receptive flock” simply because other militant religious leaders cannot use the same line & still come across as sane.” – watch out, you’re going down the slippery slope yourself. you started out from your own bias, and associate wrongfully his mainstream preaching to militant/fundamentalist.
‘if you don’t see that some words of Pastor Tan are inciting hate, & does not practise “live & let live”, can people deduce that people of his congregation or similiar belief, cannot be reasoned? – the laughable thing is after watching the video and reading some of the comments here, i sense more hatred from the gay community towards the pastor than from the Christians towards the gay… lolol
“religion can unit people or it can divide, so too can it cloud people’s judgement. seems like some religions only acts to re-enforce the herd mentality, can be a barrier to promote critical thinking skills (in S’pore’s context) & should be handled more robustly by ISD.” lolololol… let’s try this: sexual orientation can unite or divide people, etc etc etc & therefore should be dealt with promptly by both CURRENT LAW and ISD… lololol…
my last post on this topic: i am a heterosexual Christian. However if there is referendum on whether to repeal S377a or not, i’m more inclined towards “yes” for a multitude of reasons – and none of which runs contrary to my firm belief that homosexuality is deviant and a Christian sin. I will defend my right to voice my opionion as such to my circle of influence as much as you will defend yours to do the same.
good day
TOC, care to explain why my reply to mice is nice is not published? tigger
this is tigger. i can’t wait to hear from toc and have to log off after this post.
mice is nice, here is my reply to you.
the good pastor was not sowing seeds of hatred towards the gays. i went through the video. the overriding feeling was pity, not hatred. going through some of the comments here, i sense more hatred from the gays towards the pastor, then from the Christians towards the gays.
you said the pastor was leading people “astray”, that’s because you hold the personal bias that homosexuality is natural. mainstream population who think homosexuality is UNnatural will not be lead “astray”.
final word from tired tigger: i’m a hetero Christian. however i’m more inclined towards repealing S377a than not for a number of reasons – none of which runs contrary to my personal belief that homosexuality is deviant and a Christian sin.
it’s so funny. even though my personal belief is espoused by law, i actually have to defend my right to voice it. talk about (homosexual) fundamentalism!
from your bias, you wrongfully associated the pastor with militant/fundamentalists. i think you’re own the precarious slope of slippery logic yourself.
you ask that ISD handle such a divisive issue as religion. how about this: homosexual orientation can unite and divide people etc etc and therefore the POLICE and ISD should work promptly within the CURRENT context of LAW to deal with such law-breakers?
Score:
GLBT = 0
Pastor Ronnie =1
GLBT ‘s cause is a lost cause for now. Lie low.
anon
Feb 22 2010, 22:19
eh, 1st question Anon = Tigger? -.-”
points to clarify:
1. i do not hold the view homosexuals are natural, just as i do not hold the view of God’s will… eg, no one should be denied medical help even if death seem almost certain.
2. when using certain terms, eg “slippery slope” like i do. maybe you can highlight to me how i may be the one sliding down the slippery slope? do not imitate for imitation’s sake, unless you are more keen on having a verbal dual in the form of texts than engaging in a debate or conversation?
3. i have no idea mainstream’s opinion that homosexuality is “unnatural”. where did you get that info from?
4. in no way, i mean ISD should “handle” religion. religion itself is not ISD’s core duties, but a person who abuses it in ways that may harm the social fabric is within the powers of ISD.
if Pastor Rony Tan would just say less negative stuff about GLBTs & their associated lifestyle, he would get less reaction from anyone. when there is an action, there will likely be a reaction. he who preaches hate, is hated in return?
the pastor’s words border on hate, furthermore, there is no point preaching “love thy neighbour” or apologising for his words because he is not sorry for what he says.
when the OB markers are breached its ISD’s duty to see that the course of justice (whatever 1′s opinion of it) is carried out without selective enforcement.
homosexuals can unit & divide people, but did they? please share if you have such info. Pastor Rony Tan’s words were divisive (he spoke ill of other religions). so why should the law breaker be let of that lightly? take into the context which he uttered those words, certainly the law was too “gentle” on him, no?
Gays are human beings. I think it is time for us to talk to some people to tell the facts of life - churches are like corporations; once the see that the money is not coming in – that’s the best time to talk to them.
We learnt this once with a mega church that operates in a mall somewhere in town; a journalist made an allegation concerning adultery which was unfounded but nonetheless damaging; this went on for a while, but they just sat on it; then we persuaded a few major donors to hold back and came down on the leadership like a screaming eagle; suddenly they saw the light and made a 180 degree turn. God apparently works in mysterious ways it seems.
Hit them where it hurts and you will get the results.
All this talk now is just full of anger and fury signifying very little. I am sorry to say this, but if you cannot hit them where it counts; you will not have any influence, they will kick you around as if you are rubbish.
SD
This crackpot only picks on easy targets. His ministry survives on the feelings of superiority over the rest. He is merely an opportunist and accumulates power by dispensing hate. When confronted he makes a quick retreat throwing away everything he preached and stood for. I am sure he will be just as “remorseful” this time if the police visits him again.
pathology speaks the truth.
There’s no point arguing with Totally Televangelist Tan and his ilk. Reason is not part of their thought processes. I’m sure you’ve all noticed by now that their ‘arguments’ are basically giant failtrucks of logical fallacies.
christians should remain at their own sg christian forum – http://www.singaporechristiansonline.com/christianforums/index.php and the world is peaceful, thanks.
“reminded gay and lesbian Singaporeans that they were criminals in the eyes of the law.”
So were they arrested (effectively by self-identification) when they made the police report.
The great thing about the AWARE saga and this Rony Tan incident is that they EXPOSED & CONFIRMED the hypocrisy and hatred that essentially is the same lifeline that courses through all of these so called self professed faiths/x-tians/megachurches. It also shed knowledge on that many of our civil powers-that-be, are actually in the same co-horts.
So beware & be prepared and know these darkness exists amongst our midst and be ever ready to engage your enemies when they attack again. Be Vigilant. :)
True Christians and the meek may inherit the earth, but never ever lose sight that their demonic alternate ego will kill and take control of majority if they have to do. This is what they believe in, this is what they are. They are self consumed with their own darkness.
These wolf packs in sheep clothing are like vampires. They must convert all their victims. Nothing you say or do matters to them. They MUST feed or die. This is their nature.
@nonsense
That was a very graphic and insulting interpretion of Christians. U seem to put Christians as THE enemy rather than the evil that blinds some of them.
For all that bible thumping queers out there. I seriously wonder how many of you have some dark fetish which you would be Oh-so-afraid to let us find out. Pray harder kids! It’s makes you go to heaven faster!
PS: Standing in a car garage does not make you a ferrari engineer just like how going to church every Sunday makes you a better christian.
^ Typo in the quote. :D
Standing in a car garage does not make you a ferrari engineer just like how going to church every Sunday does not make you a better christian.
When someone speak bad on Buddhism, should Buddhist retaliate? Is Buddhism about Tit for Tat? Should Buddhist call for arrest of Rony Tan when the government let him go?
I left the “Arrest Rony Tan” group because it is not promoting Buddhist’s agenda on loving kindness and forgiving, and help to administer a new group “pastor rony tan helps strengthen buddhist faith”.
You may also like to take a look at this group on non harsh word and non retaliating
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=348037296880