By Choo Zheng Xi, Editor-At-Large
I felt deeply angry when I saw the videos of Pastor Rony Tan deriding Buddhists in his church. A place of worship was used to propagate misinformation and ignorance. A faith of love and acceptance was being used as a vehicle of intolerance.
Other Singaporeans were angry too, so angry that a large number were calling for Pastor Tan to be jailed under the Internal Security Act or the Sedition Act. But I held myself back.
I know how deeply religion can inspire. A Catholic friend of mine told me how he teared when he first saw the grandeur of St Peter’s Basilica on visit to the Vatican, and I’ve seen the peace my mother draws from Buddhism when I went to Guan Yin Miao at Waterloo Street with her as she prayed for my safety before I left overseas to study.
Pastor Tan has shown Singaporeans how deeply religion can hurt. But do Singaporeans really need the Sedition Act to heal?
Strong communities aren’t built on strong prisons
Many questioned why the authorities let Pastor Tan off while three teenagers posting comments on Facebook were arrested. While they were later released, there appears to be a glaring double standard being applied. Lock him up, many cried out.
But two wrongs don’t make a right.
It’s telling that when controversy like this occurs, Singaporeans immediately look to a punitive measure to solve the problem. That’s how simplistic our attitudes towards faith and ethnicity have become.
Sadly, laws like the Sedition Act encourage Singaporeans to take the path of least resistance, short circuit important social dialogue, and retard the process of seeking richer inter-faith/cultural confidence building.
I understand that to say to someone that he should heed Voltaire’s dictum to “disagree with what you say, but defend to the death your right to say it” sounds hollow if his belief system has been insulted.
And I disagree with Voltaire.
I believe that some societal interests need to be protected by the government at the expense of completely free speech. Every democratic society negotiates its comfort zone based on its historical experience. Every society has its taboos: you cannot publicly deny the Holocaust in Europe, and even the American Supreme Court draws the line at inflammatory speech that directly incites violence.
However, in contrast to the democratically negotiated boundaries these countries have evolved, the charge of sedition originated in 14th Century England as a means to protect an insecure State against a broad array of political crimes. A United Kingdom Law Commission Report called for it’s abolition as long ago as 1977, and the crime of sedition was recently expunged by an Act of Parliament.
Singapore’s version of this relic now stubbornly remains, standing in the way of a genuine grassroots attempt to define the limits of speech in Singapore, a threatening tool to be unequally applied.
Laws like the Sedition Act would be unnecessary if ordinary Singaporeans and community leaders took a stronger role in promoting moderation.
Where were the community organizations that are supposed to build inter-faith trust like the Inter-Religious Organisation? Disappointingly, there was also no intra-faith peer pressure from senior Christian leaders who could have stepped forward to denounce his views and call on him to apologise. The Internal Security Department (ISD), not the community, took centre stage.
Ironically, resorting to the coercive power of the State as a first resort is likely to encourage moderates to continue sitting on the sidelines.
Even more horrific is the misapplication of police power against teenagers. A friend of mine was investigated several years ago for Sedition. His computer was confiscated and he was interrogated by police at Cantonment station. Although charges were never brought against him, it’s an experience he found traumatic.
The search for inter-cultural understanding should not begin with imprisonments and arrests. In fact, they are counter-productive. Dialogue at dagger’s end is seldom sincere — peace procured by duress is damned to be brittle.
The heavy hand of the law should be the last resort of a confident and harmonious Singapore: moderates in our community have to step forth first.
Forgive, but never forget
Forgiveness is inherent in all beliefs and cultures, but forgiveness would be an empty gesture if we did not keep the principles in which it’s based firmly in mind.
In 1944, the famous American jurist Judge Learned Hand addressed a crowd of 1.5 million strong in Central Park on the annual “I am an American Day”. He said:
“What then is the spirit of liberty? I cannot define it; I can only tell you my own faith. The spirit of liberty is the spirit which is not too sure that it is right; the spirit of liberty is the spirit which seeks to understand the minds of other men and women; the spirit of liberty is the spirit which weighs their interests alongside its own without bias.”
Some might think moderation means taking the middle ground, not taking a position. But in an age of extremes, to hold the principled position of understanding and tolerance is to be brave.
A successful Singapore regardless of race, language or religion has to be constructed on the principles of a democratic country, based on justice and equality. Never forget.
HELP keep the voice of TOC alive!
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Can the ISD just jailed this guy like what you do in the past with other people. Why ISD don’t do it now, is this guy white horse, LKY ball carrier, relatives of some1 powerful?
I am sure ISD could just drag me from my house, put me in a cold room to chill and then into the dungeon. Because i am a nobody.
Hi Zheng Xi,
I enjoyed reading the article, although I take a different view of sedition act and effectiveness of community moderation. I think the sedition act is necessary as a fallback in case all else fails. If community moderation fails and the offender remains unrepentant, what should we do then?
In this case, i am not too optimistic about community moderation either, specifically in this case.If the issue is ignorance, I accept that open dialogue and community based moderation is the way to go. But this is not the case.
At the very basic level, there is an inherent tension between the beliefs of some churches (not all though) vis-a-vis other other religions. It is more of a binary thing- either 1 or 0, with very little room for middle ground. Furthermore, they do have strong convictions about their religion (which I think it’s admirable to have strong principles) but it does narrow the room for common ground.
In this case, I think a govt both neutral and with strength is needed in this case to hold the line. As an aside, i don’t think we should worry about an abuse of power in the area of religion. With society so polarized over such issue, the govt, itself, is walking on a tightrope on such issues.
IT IS TRUE: CHRISTIANS ARE ALSO AMONG THE WORST PEOPLE IN SINGAPORE
A very well written article, Mr Choo! I agree with you that we must “Forgive, but never forget. Forgiveness is inherent in all beliefs and cultures, but forgiveness would be an empty gesture if we did not keep the principles in which it’s based firmly in mind…..Some might think moderation means taking the middle ground, not taking a position. But in an age of extremes, to hold the principled position of understanding and tolerance is to be brave.”
But if you do not believe in forgiving a remorseful man, and prefer playing a blame-game of fault-finding, let’s hack back to the days when Rony Tan was a staunch anti-Christian Taoist-Buddhist (that is what most Taoists will say of themselves—-they “bai Poot” (worship Buddha). His anti-Christian family, and especially his granny would grab a broom and chase those Christians who happened to pass her shop distributing Christian tracts to people walking by there. Those Christians quickly ran away, instead of reporting to the police, which of course they had the right to do. So Pastor Rony Tan would find this something of a deja vu. And he had repeatedly said he was very remorseful of what he did. May I also join him to give our sincere apologies to all aggrieved Taoists and Buddhists! For failing to speak up, as I was then more concerned with questions like “Are those healing stories true? Or they cooked up ones to bump up church membership?, etc”
So steep was he in his belief system that he once went berserk and wanted to kill a fellow band-mate. Hand not another fellow band-mate intervened, Roy Tan would have succeeded with a murder, be convicted of it and hanged. But of course not all Buddhists or Taoists are like that, just as I can also say that many of the Christians (including church leaders themselves) have standards far below that of the non-Christians. I should know better, as my fellow Christians also wanted to destroy me for the good deeds that I tried doing. DJ Bala Reddy (now Principal State Counsel heading their State Prosecution Division) has the details. But I thought Christians are supposed to be good people? How mistaken I was! So there you have those Christians who were trying hard to destroy me for the good that I tried doing to help others as my way of glorifying my Lord Jesus; as my way of trying to help PM Lee build for us a great, enlightened and a loving and sharing Singapore. And my best friend is a Taoist who stood by me, while many of my so-called Christian brothers/sisters wanted me destroyed in a show of their upside-down version Christianity. God is great? You must be mentally retarded, unless I am the one shouting “Allahu Akbar! God is Greatest!!”
So if you are still unhappy with Pastor Rony Tan, the ex-Taoist-Buddhist, please remember that you need to blame a Taoist medium for ‘introducing’ (‘evangelising’) Jesus to him—-for saying and demonstrating how powerful Jesus was while the latter was in a state of trance during their seance. Thereafter, Rony Tan had a change of heart and world view; came back to Singapore and got himself converted to become a follower of Jesus. Now he had become the type of person he detested and had been vilifying for so long many years ago. Life, as we often see, do presents us with unexpected outcomes.
Lastly, you are right to cite American Judge Learned Hand: “….the spirit of liberty is the spirit which seeks to understand the minds of other men and women; the spirit of liberty is THE SPIRIT WHICH WEIGHS THEIR INTERESTS ALONGSIDE ITS OWN WITHOUT BIAS.” That is like paraphrasing what Apostle Paul says: “To all the saints in Philippi….Do nothing from selfishness or conceit, but in humility count others better than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of other.” Philippians 2:3-4. That is why I have been saying your Venerable Kwang Sheng was being very wise, and I agree with what he says, that it is not a question of who is right and who is wrong. It is also an issue of the violation of the Christian principle as enshrined in Philippians 2:3-4. And for all these, Pastor Rony Tan has repeatedly given his sincere apologies and undertaking not to repeat this violation [of this Christian principle too].
Again, I wish to join him to tender our apologies to all aggrieved Taoists and Buddhists. I implore that Buddhists to show faith in the wisdom and graciousness of their Venerable Kwang Sheng who had accepted his profuse apologies. It is a good idea. Pastor Rony Tan should go to jail. And may I state that Pastor Rony Tan has no objection going to jail as can be there helping and praying for miracles for the prisoners there—for their hopes and transformation by the power of divine live.”
So “Inspire me, Lord, to be thankful to Thee for Thy favours to me and my loved ones to do good deeds which will please Thee. Admit me, through Thy mercy, to be among Thy righteous.” An-Naml 27:19. “For the noblest in God’s sight is he/she who is the most righteous.” AL-Hujurut 49:13..
{doctorwho 13/2/10 8:34 AM:
Can the ISD just jailed this guy like what you do in the past with other people. Why ISD don’t do it now, is this guy white horse, LKY ball carrier, relatives of some1 powerful?
I am sure ISD could just drag me from my house, put me in a cold room to chill and then into the dungeon. Because i am a nobody.}
======================================================
GOOD IDEA TO LOCK UP IN JAIL PASTOR RONY TAN
Hi doxtorwho!
I am a great fan of Pastor Rony Tan, and I certainly support and your great idea, to have the ISD lock him up in jail. Why? This man likes to pray for people and God likes to hear his prayers for others, as he has great faith in God to heal and change the lives of the sick, the hopeless and those in demonic bondage.
And there are lots of such people in prison who needs spiritual help. Many of them are relapse cases (recidivists), so liberty outside prison is meaningless for them. What they need is for someone like Pastor Rony to go in there and conduct his prayer and healing sessions. For God is Great! Allahu Akbar!!
So I hope more unforgiving Taoists and Buddhists can join me to support your great idea to jail Pastor Rony, as we love hearing new stories fro this great true story teller. So got great stories to tell us when he comes out of prison—how God was so mighty doing His great works of redemption!
I repeat: it is a good idea. Pastor Rony Tan should go to jail so that Changi prison can have a chaplin-in-residence to help, pray for and mend wasted lives there.. And may I state that Pastor Rony Tan has no objection going to jail as can be there helping and praying for miracles for the prisoners there—for their hopes and transformation by the power of divine live.”
Again, I wish to join him to tender our apologies to all aggrieved Taoists and Buddhists. I implore that Buddhists to show faith in the wisdom and graciousness of their Venerable Kwang Sheng who had accepted his profuse apologies.
It would be a far better idea if all of Taoists and Buddhists can join me and Mr Kwa Soon Khe (CEO of Singapore Buddhists Federation) to show faith in this transcendentally beautiful Prayer of Prophet Suleiman if we want Singapore to be turned into a great, enlightened and a caring, sharing society:
:So “Inspire me, Lord, to be thankful to Thee for Thy favours to me and my loved ones to do good deeds which will please Thee. Admit me, through Thy mercy, to be among Thy righteous.” An-Naml 27:19. “For the noblest in God’s sight is he/she who is the most righteous.” AL-Hujurut 49:13..
CORRECTIONS FOR: “GOOD IDEA TO LOCK UP PASTOR RONY IN JAIL”
“from”, not “fro”; “divine love”, not divine live”, etc.
So I hope more unforgiving Taoists and Buddhists can join me to support your great idea to jail Pastor Rony, as we love hearing new stories from this great true story teller. So got great stories to tell us when he comes out of prison—how God was so mighty doing His mighty miracles helping hopeless people and His great works of redemption in Changi Prison!
I repeat: it is a good idea. Pastor Rony Tan should go to jail so that Changi prison can have a chaplin-in-residence to help, pray for and mend wasted lives there.. And may I state that Pastor Rony Tan has no objection going to jail as he can be there helping and praying for miracles for the prisoners there—for their hopes and transformation by the power of divine love.”
The pastor mocked and the crowd followed.
By inference, can i say that all other singaporeans who think likewise are also harboring deepseated Ignorance and hatred if not resentment of other religion such that these so-called religious people are in fact no better than Intolerant Unforgiving Intellectuals with extremely low EQ where high IQ does not necessarily mean high EQ?
For example, a certain religion had followers with PhDs. They murdered people who they feel are not one of them or satanic? ‘Either you are one of us or against us’ mentality?
If so, these are no better than terrorists.
Religious Extremists should be persecuted and locked without trial , indefintely until they have Reformed. Their believe is Fundamentally Flawed and without merit. worst than Total thrash. Even thrash can be recycled.
Choo,
As a Christian who used to be a Hindu eons ago,i know exactly why Pastor Rony Tan made those comments,i have yet to see the video,but based on online reports on this sensitive matter,i know there’s a thin red line between preaching & polytheism,but i guess in this case,when the video got out,all hell broke loose,there will always be 2 sides to a coin,one man’s meat is another man’s poison,what may be acceptable for some may not be accepted by others.
I know how you feel about this incident,i have been there,done that,i have indeed gone through countless number of religious incidents in S’pore as well as in England now,these issues can’t be swept under the carpet,the day we learn how to be truly be tolerant will be the day freedom has reigned supreme,until then,issues pertaining to religion will continue to haunt mankind.
Hi,
My feeling is that inter-communal (inter-religious) relations is so important to Singapore and remains the bedrock of our existence that any parliamentary act even the Sedition Act is welcome by many in Singapore ( including myself). This causes all of us to be less exuberant when talking about others different from ourselves.
If I were a Buddhist or Taoist watching the video, I know I would be incensed with the insensitivity shown on the stage.
How would Christians feel if Buddhist or Muslims had sneered at their beliefs and were condescending towards them? I rest my case.
Why should preaching the wonderful teachings of a religion require the use of putting down other religion if one can preach well?
seems like attempting to ‘win votes’, for lack of better word, as in win converts.
if one is selling lollipop brand A against competitor lollipop brand B, i would not mind. But this rony is too much. Worse is, we do not know exactly how many such religious preachers and followers think alike or have been brainwashed to think alike.
You know, what happens when you get offended? You get offended. That’s it. Nothing else happens after.. the sky doesn’t change, the earth doesn’t shake. Sure, your heart might pump a little faster, you might tremble a little, your pupils might dilate a little. Unless of course if you think the world revolves around you, you and your peers and beliefs and that this world of yours could come crashing down with mere words, then perhaps the problem lies not in the power of certain words but the fragility of your world.
How you deal with your emotions when getting offended depends on how you are brought up, how educated you are (not necessarily by tertiary institutions), how mature you are.
How you act upon those emotions (negative or positive) is what matters. How you decide to act, depends on how you have grown as a person.. a person in society, a global society perhaps in most probability.
Wanting a LAW, needing a LAW to protect that over sensitive emotions of ours only exposes the weakness of collective minds, the immaturity of society, this particular society.
Battling of the minds, challenging with words and ideas, having the ability to debate/disagree, and articulate one’s thoughts well, takes more learned process, a more positive road of discovery and indeed much more bravery than to threatened dissent, disagreements, unpopular ideas with force, violence and the loss of liberty and freedom.
Tell the God Kuan Yew not to run down other Opposition when touting his PAP religion.
Hi wui,
I totally agree with you … that yes, this particular society is immature. But until the day when all our people are as mature and as open minded ( and as eloquent) as yourself, some restraint is needed- even it comes in the form of a LAW.
Best wishes
To those Christians who wrote to this forum in support of the government intervention.I have a question to ask of them.Should church pastors be also refrain from preaching against Voodooism,shamanism,Blackmagic,Occults like tarrot-card reading.After all,are not all these
considered by the United Nations as religious practices?Thanking you in advance.
#MLC
hahaha …lol
This is a difficult question to simply answer. However, I must add that lately there has been many situations we had, especially with young pople. A little worrying.
We must be tolerant and I like the TOC idea. Better, open communication will certainly help all around.
All religions exist to steer human beings back to the right once they stray too far away due to human greed, arrogance, egotism, materialism and totally forget the existence of God. Most religions of the world only have part of the truth or rigtheous principles at different given time of their birth in this world. Therefore, religion by itself cannot say that it is more right or superior than other religions. All religions should come together and unite to give mankind the complete picture on the correct way of human existence and way of life. In fact your of us are related one way or another and are brothers and sisters regardless of our religious faiths.
1st of all..let me confessed.. i am NOT a christian even though i used to attend catholic masses on weekends in the olden days..obviouslee i was there to chase skirts…but whatever happenned..the priest lookup on me and give me his personal time to tutor me bible class
till today i still reside give us today our daily bread..forgive us our sins…….
2 decade ago i embraced thais buddishism upon my 1st visit to bangkok thailand..beside chasin skirts where the land of a 1000s smiles…i found myself in a broken down temple manned by a 80 year ole holy chief monk…from that day onwards..i embraced and practised karma to the best of my ability…
why did i changed side? simply because buddishism are simple people..one who beleives in what you want to believe..unliked the christians who alway think JESUS/MARY come 1st..before YOUR family/friends… i hate that…i rather broke off my friendships/relationships with my cousinS over this issues…
we are no longer on talkin terms…
Ideally, the community will moderate itself. But we have primordial instincts that are (or should be) suppressed by the rules of our society. One of these instincts is racism. The Germans supported (or acquiesced in) the holocaust because the Nazi worldview so perverted societal rules that they failed to suppress racism. Instead, the Nazi worldview, which legitimised racism, was allowed to become pervasive in Germany. Once that primordial instinct, racism, was legitimised, only carpet bombing could restrain it.
The point is that once a racist voice emerges, if it is allowed to become loud enough, it has the effect of legitimisation. Moderate voices are drowned out. And history has shown us what the consequences of racism are. For that reason, the Sedition Act is needed to delegitimise racist behaviour and speech.
One can easily see that the same argument applies to speech that tends toward religious hate, although it may be argued that religion is less compelling an issue in Singapore’s context than race.
The reaction to Rony Tan may suggest that our community is responsible enough to delegitimise speech that tends toward religious hatred. I hope that is the case. But I sense that the real outrage here is not about what Rony Tan said, it is about a suspicion that he is getting off lightly because he is friendly to powerful people.
Evangelism is like campaigning for votes in an election.
Trying to sell brand thunderstorm , does not mean that you should or you could say nasty things about brand hammer or chisel, brand star or moon, brand arrow or sword.
On a related note – will the Prime Minister get away for dismissing the beliefs of certain Singaporean Chinese people in his New Year speech about having ‘tiger babies’ as ‘cling(ing) on to superstitions’?
How would Christians feel if Buddhist or Muslims had sneered at their beliefs and were condescending towards them? I rest my case.
—-
We will just laugh it off? After all, Da vinci code came in book and even movie form and no ruckus was raised?
Kelvin Tan
Not true. If u went to certain churches, you would have heard condemnation and hailing of fire and brimstone upon the book and terrible punishments on those who read it or watched the movie. Not one but quite a few of my friends told me their pastor and church warned them against readind it when i asked them, condemning the book in no uncertain terms.
So there was ruckus raised within the churches and thats their perogative.
Of course these sessions were not recorded and uploaded online….
want to promote moderation, but dun want to take firm action against people who knowingly step out of line does not promote or encourage people to moderate.
there must be “carrots” for those who toe the line for the greater good, be it for personal reasons, for society (which in the long run may hopefully translate to economic terms).
and the “stick”, for those who stepped out of line, to prevent the blurring of lines between what is acceptable & what is not. if the distinction is not clear enough, it may embolden others to test the fault lines time & time again. let’s hope our govt agencies take a more pro-active approach to maintain religious & racial peace. they are paid well enough to do a job, so deliver the “goods”.
because the speed at which a fallout can develope in today’s wireless world, S’pore’s tiny size cannot afford to mis-calculate on what one should have done or needs to be done. of course, it may seem like extreme fear mongering now, but the threat is real, & like our govt’s commitment to our national security with the huge annual budget allocation, it has to “wake up” & see the potential threats from within!
Double standard no matter what undermines the legitimacy of the law. It seems to me that there is a polarized debate here that people either want him to be punished or not. The issue for me, is more on the how he can be punished; there is a great difference between high handed jail term and soft handed community service. Soft punishment here not only reduces the seeming double standard at play, it enforces humility.
Moderation is key. So is moderation of punishments.
A good article, except that I agree with Voltaire.
Religion, like all belief systems, should not be exempt from criticisms.
We live in the 21st century where we don’t burn witches or stone people for adultery. Many religious pratices have been found to be superstitious by modern science.
It is shocking to find many asking the government to police thinking and speaking. Looks like the PAP position is very secure with people with this type of mentality.
A well written and thoughtful article.
It is best that man keeps his God and religion in his heart and home and not bring it to the public domain. We are not as rational as we seem to think we are when it comes to matters of God and religion.
There is a lot of growing up and life learning required before man can truly become qualified to embrace a religion of his own choice and out of his own freewill. By then he would have sufficiently known about the viles and virtues of men and the machinations of pseudo God men who bring untold misery to the human race with their false and foolish preaching in the name of religion.
If I were to be a ruler I will ban proselytisation and conversion to anyone up to the age 59 and below. No questions asked if you want to convert to another religion if you are 60 and above. I will facilitate your conversion by setting up a government office unit for this purpose (like the Registrar of Marriages)!
ALLAHU AKBAR! GOD IS GREATEST!!
Thank God! My efforts writing to AGC, the Police, ISD, DPM Wong Kan Seng, etc to politely appeal for the 3 poly boys have born fruit. Today ST reported on page one that the Police would not be pressing any criminal charges against the 3 Chinese boys arrested for bad-mouthing Indians. If not for Pastor Rony Tan’s case, I would be unable to pitch effectively my appeal to the police & AGC.
I have to thank all netizens who have expressed strong sentiments on the matter. Thanks to all of you for your concern! May God bless all of you!!
Obviously such widespread sentiments do help a lot for an appeal like that. So I can’t claim all the credits to myself. But I do thank the police and the authorities for taking note of my view and the the sentiments of Singaporeans. So it is true that “All things work for good with those who love God, who are called to His purpose.” Romans 8:28.
Allahu Akbar! God is Greatest!! Praised be His Holy Name!!!
Zeng Xi –
I think that there may be a misunderstanding of what Voltaire actually taught. He wasn’t against state intervention in social spaces; he was against the influence of socialised religious values rather than civil reason on state power. I clarified this matter as much last year after Thio Li-ann spectacularly misused the same quote you cited in parliament. You can still read my piece here: http://www.qlrs.com/essay.asp?id=697.
{Gwee Li Sui Feb 13, 2010 17:17 PM:
Zeng Xi – I think that there may be a misunderstanding of what Voltaire actually taught. He wasn’t against state intervention in social spaces; he was against the influence of socialised religious values rather than civil reason on state power. I clarified this matter as much last year after Thio Li-ann spectacularly misused the same quote you cited in parliament. You can still read my piece here: http://www.qlrs.com/essay.asp?id=697. }
I HOPE EVERYONE CAN AGREE WITH ME THAT THE VENERABLE KWANG SHENG IS BOTH A VERY GRACIOUS AND A WISE BUDDHIST MONK
Hi Dwee Li Sui!
Happy to see you posting in this blog! Wishing you a Happy and Meaningful Chinese New Year!
Read that you ar a lecturer in Eglish Literature in NUS, right? That you are a Christian, as you claimed to be!
If that is the case, please do not forget what te Bible teaches: “Love the sinner and hate the sin (especially those inside ourselves)”
Paul exhorts, “To all the sants i Philippi….Do nothing from selfishness or conceit, but in humility, consider others better thanyourselves. let each of you look not to your own intreests, but also to the interests of others.” Philippians 2:3-4.
On this score, I wish to say I agree with the Venerable Kwang Sheng, that it is not a question of “who is right or who is wrong”. That is why I feel the Venerable Kwang Sheng is not only a very gracious and forgiving man; he is also a very wise Buddhist monk WHO IS worthy of our respect?
What do you think?
CORRECTION:
Should be:
Paul exhorts, “To all the saints in Philippi….Do nothing from selfishness or conceit, but in humility, consider others better than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to your own interreests, but also to the interests of others.” Philippians 2:3-4.
Sincere, honest will not take place with punitive action. There is also the danger that punitive action and eventual martyrdom would be hijack by the conservative Christian right to represent the overall Christian view. What we need is a louder voice from moderate christians who do not denigrate other religions just to glorify christianity. The other churches and christian organisations can also do their part, but this time they are found to be lacking. Moderate christians is their very own little way can try to be the mending bridge.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=291543027665
Hey Dr Huang,
Since both of us agree that this particular society is immature, do you think, perhaps we can find the root cause of this ‘problem ‘ or even many factors that moulded the very common form of mentality here. What has been discouraging or even suppressing creative thoughts, independent growth? When do we become mature? How do we become mature?
Why is our society so obsessed with material needs? Do you think perhaps it was encouraged? Why is our society on the whole not infatuated instead of the liberal arts, music (not just pop culture), literature, basic sciences, walking, environment, global issues?
While on the surface, our people appear ‘courteous’ and mild mannered, this has often been misinterpreted as having real civility and social awareness. Why is this so?
You said ‘until the day when all our people becomes mature and open minded, some restraint is needed’.
I might agree laws to be put in place against violence, I am against law that threatens someone imprisonment just because he or she offended me and that there is a potential for me to incite violence or chaos in retaliation. If that were to happen (that is, I retaliate with force), then it is I who is guilty of disrupting peace. I would rather be given the opportunity to defend my position or choose to walk away from a particular confrontation, it is only then, I will begin to learn a little more about myself, my beliefs, my position and how I should approach any particular subject thrown at me throughout my life. Both approaches (confront with knowledge and words, and walking away) are signs of education and maturity.
Dr Huang, do you remember the time when there wasn’t even kissing scene allowed on our TVs? Do you remember the first Restricted films being shown? I remember it well.. were we ready, open minded and mature then? What studies did the government use to decide that it was the right time to introduce this oh very ‘improper ‘ exposure? Who are they to judge whether we are OLD enough? Did we not then live through the initial days where it was ‘big news’ and a national obsession about who smooches who onscreen (wasn’t that sad?), did we not live through the initial crazy period where there were long queues of ‘uncles with umbrellas’ at cinemas awaiting for certain raunchy and not very artistic movies? So, this generation is better equipped to handle exposures of bare breasts, acts of copulation onscreen than the last? What was going to happen if that was introduce in the early 80s?? Would people go running amok in the streets, commit crimes because they saw the natural female or male form?
It is sad at today’s age and time, that in this country and many others of course, the natural human form is considered obscene while acts of third world control is not.
Is this not a case of introducing the cane first before dialogues, understanding and compassion. If dialogues, interaction, debates, discussions and compassion were introduced first, why is there a need for the cane? And if the cane with a discipline master were to be placed there as a reminder even on the background, all my suggestions unfortunately can only be practiced superficially without true engagements.
Although I remember when technically I became an adult in the eyes of legality, I don’t remember when I considered myself one… even after looking back at all my experiences, exposures, life tests at different times.. but what I do know is that I don’t need anyone, and certainly not the government to tell me when I am ready for life’s courses.
Since every generation always affects the next, the right time is always this generation, our generation, our time and not the next.
Best regards… and sorry about the long response. Have a brilliant Lunar New Year.
I never agree with the idea that religion should not be exempt from insults or criticisms ,especially in a pluralistic society like ours. The sedition act is required to safeguard the interests of the society and is essential for harmony to prevail. However i feel that the sedition act needs to be reviewed for it to be more fair and effective. I would want it in such a way that 1st time offenders are sent for counseling and repeat offenders to be given a jail term and/or fine for the purpose of deterrence.
As for the freedom to criticise religion, why do you wish for that? Personal right at the expense of comfort of the offended? Whether we want such policy or not, we need to take into the consideration of the benefits and whether are we better off without such policy?
Hi Wui,
You asked very profound and pertinent questions which, unfortunately, the majority of S’poreans are not interested in. Whose fault is it that we do not have a culture we can be proud of? That most around us are only interested in material things and do not share love of “liberal arts, music (not just pop culture), literature, basic sciences, walking, environment, global issues” that you so obviously are passionate about?
It is easy to blame the govt being “role model” culprits as they pay themselves millions and in so doing tell us that everything in Sg is measured only in terms of the mighty dollar- that there is no such thing as altruism or selfless public service or patriotism. “If you don’t pay millions to these great leaders- they will be tempted to be corrupt” was the message that was clear unless one was blind. The people were willing accomplices for falling into this propaganda trap as we ( or majority of people) laughed and were skeptical of those who said they will serve because it was the right thing to do ( and not for $). Hence JBJ died thinking that we didn’t care.
Liberal arts and love of music fell by the wayside as there was no money in it and parents actively discouraged their kids from pursuing whatever passions they had and whatever talents they had in these “soft” subjects were completely snuffed out by the time they passed their teenage years.
“Creativity” meant willing to think that alternative ways other than the status quo were possible. The establishment (govt/schools/NS/employers (in a sense) sort of conspired to make sure we kept to the well trodden path- or else you are on your own. Forget scholarships/ govt jobs/ places in top faculties if you wanted time to smell the flowers.
We are the result of this successful indoctrination through the 60’s till now. Now so-called enlightened ministers, such as Tharman (whom I respect) , want to reverse the trend and to give all the chance of attaining their full potential with many different education paths, Better late than never, but elitism such as IP schools, are disadvantaging late bloomers etc.
Other factors that prevent more mature and peaceful co-existence (that do not require Sedition Act) include the rise of religious fundamentalism ( from some major religions). The relatively large different ethnic/religious blocks (Chinese 70%/Malays 15%/ Indians ?5-8%) who represent mainly Buddhist/Taoist/Christian and Islam and Hindu/Christian respectively who have to share common public space mean that we are different from Denmark which can allow the infamous cartoonist to draw insulting caricature of the prophet in the name of freedom. There, the relatively homogenous white Christian ( even if nominal) population meant that they can tell any minority to either accept their dominance or leave ( take it or leave it). Sg cannot afford to tell anyone to do that as our minorities are sizable blocks. Most of us are also genuinely appreciative of our relative racial/religious peace and harmony and do not want to risk it ( even there may be examples of successful models that I am sure you know of).
So, after the great digression, ( blame it on the CNY reunion dinner)- we have blamed the govt/ourselves/ our unwillingness to take a risk for the sake of our very tenuous religious/racial harmony.
I shall not say more- for I have digressed enough.
Wishing all a healthy and happy Lunar New Year!
heh heh.. Dr Huang,
I shouldn’t be writing as I have had quite a number of drinks now. But heck…
Somehow, I feel we are actually having a rather interesting discussion rather than a debate for debating sake type of debate.. and I feel we are on the same side.. just having similar different approach and opinion. Appreciate it. And I do enjoy reading your comments on other issues and subjects. Have a good year and journey.
Three cheers to civility!
Happy Lunar New Year to all at TOC. Thank you, well done, and keep it up.
i get it. so long as you are not specific when ATTACKING another religion, the authorities here will generally not intervene. when christian champion their god as the only way, it already implies that all other faith are SATANIC in nature or are SATANIC. for centuries, christianity has never been ‘friendly” or cordial towards SATANIC ORGANIZATION. but they have learned to be subtle when comes to insults. now, they know how to “imply” and not speak directly or name names. PASTOR RONY TAN was the only bold one, or was unfortunate to get caught, who stood up for the Lord and be counted as the LION of Judah.
but just when his ROAR was about to IMPACT the kingdoms of SATAN, he was beaten down to an apologetic whimpering kitten.
next time, be more subtle with your insults. just scold SATAN without naming names, understand? and the authorities will ignore you lolz
Moral of the story?
It Pays to be a hypocrite.
When its all boiled down to gravy the author of the article is making a statement about the place of the sedition act in a free society. As a holder and voicer of often unpopular opinions I agree with his statement. Sedition laws protect the powerful from the voices of the powerless. That is how the powerful stay powerful.
Well says friends! If Singapore Education Department could suspend the AWARE’s SEX eduction being introduced & run in school – I wonder why Rolling Stone Rony Tan could not possibly be jailed or at least detained together with the Lighthouse Evangelism Hall where the actual spot being used for the unhealthy activity to be closed down until ISD investgation is completed without legal case? I hope & wish the government do not just close one eye in response to the feedback of its own majority people in SIngapore! Is this signal of the beginning as well as the first day cum new chapter for CNY celebration in Asians Cultural style/fashion too? Cong Xi Fa Cai!
PASTOR RONY TAN was the only bold one, or was unfortunate to get caught, who stood up for the Lord and be counted as the LION of Judah.
but just when his ROAR was about to IMPACT the kingdoms of SATAN, he was beaten down to an apologetic whimpering kitten.
====
U should realize that, in Singapore, everytime you point a finger at others saying they are cowards, 3 fingers point back at you for being part of the Singapore society that does nothing when the state comes down hard to these people.
trivialize mr gold? my my, i think you are “trivializing the issues” here with a potent concoction of delusional puppy credo. your strategy is basically to suppress a “tiger”. sure, the tigers will meow. but it only takes a few to wake up to their true nature, and you will soon be running for your life.
now even if you succeed in your suppressive measures, what about the kind of people you are breeding and putting them in charge of key appointments? a people who can’t be real(hypocrites to be exact) and pretend we are all living in a “disney world”? c’mon, mr gold. surely for what you are worth, you can do much better than that?
you seriously think there is a future with a hypocritical populace?
no wonder your people are so…”inoculated” and “alien” when compared to freer citizens.
Our dear Pastor Rony Tan from Lighthouse Church in the same ‘programme’ with the 3 Poly boys?
” In reply to media queries, Police confirmed Friday night that the boy “who started the Facebook group that stirred feelings of unhappiness and resentment against other races would be placed on a Guidance Programme”.
He may be given a police warning after satisfactorily completing the programme – run by the Ministry for Community Development, Youth and Sports – and, in that case, would not have any criminal record. ”
oooooooooooooo
Quote-
TODAY Newspaper February 13, 2010
>
> FACEBOOK TRIO NOT CHARGED
> ————————-
> SINGAPORE – The three youth arrested for posting racist comments on Facebook have been given a second chance.
>
> In reply to media queries, Police confirmed Friday night that the boy “who started the Facebook group that stirred feelings of unhappiness and resentment against other races would be placed on a Guidance Programme”. He may be given a police warning after satisfactorily completing the programme – run by the Ministry for Community Development, Youth and Sports – and, in that case, would not have any criminal record.
>
> The other two boys, who acted as the administrators to the Facebook page, have also been cautioned by the Police and will not have any record of criminal conviction.
>
> “In consideration that the youth had acted out of immaturity rather than malice, and in consultation with the Attorney-General’s Chambers, these actions were taken by Police,” said the Police. “The three boys have since apologised for their actions and the offensive online page and forum removed.”
>
> The trio, aged 17 and 18, were arrested on Jan 31. The Police said it still takes a serious view of acts that can threaten the social harmony here, including those done “behind a shroud of anonymity afforded by the Internet”. Zul Othman
Our dear Pastor Rony Tan from Lighthouse Church has ‘passed the ball’ to the PAP government and happily walked off?
Therefore PAP stands for PEOPLE ACTIONLESS PARTY! Is the whole game simply a draw case? Was it well planned or arranged?
I feel that the issue could have been handled by just the police. He was not even charged or punished? is it?
This case could have indirectly made people think of the need for ISD when in this world , only a few country is left practising it now.
its cny and i wonder why they gonna ring the alarm bell island wide ?
Hypocrisy is to the max…. like i have mentioned earlier in my other post, if i were to plunge a knife into your abdomen with the intent to kill, but after i have caused you harm and see the damaged, i realized it was a mistake and i decided to apologize for my actions, hoping you would forgive my actions and let the wounds heal.
The scar would remain and the damage is done. No matter how sorry you are its can never resolve the fact that the intent is to kill.
What he did in his church service was an arranged setting. He got an ex monk and an ex nun to come on his rotten stage to give his preaching. What is he trying to prove?
Its all in his intent to damn whoever is not following his faith. So if this fella had already planned all this in the beginning, why would he not think about it before he planned or execute the so called preaching. He even had the cheek to upload into his website.
This is all staged. I believe its nothing but a form of publicity to get more attention. By apologizing, he had so called demonstrated he realized his mistakes and would amend his sins. This is all crap.
He should be stripped of his titles or powers and to be jailed for causing public disturbance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition_Act_(Singapore)#Uses_of_the_act
Wouldn’t it be unfair to these people if he was not brought to justice?
Or, it’ll just reinforce the views of our justice system having a double standard.
Kelvin Tan wrote: “PASTOR RONY TAN was the only bold one, or was unfortunate to get caught, who stood up for the Lord and be counted as the LION of Judah.” Amen to that, brother.
Pastor Tan was so loyal to his country of birth that he wrote this in appreciation: www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O67SyJiyzY
Thanks be to God, despite the hordes of angry mobs that lash him so mercilessly, there are supporters out there that can see the light: http://singaporedesk.blogspot.com/2010/02/freedom-of-worship.html
Suppose Singapore have 5 millions of people & everyone is entitled to do the way as Rev Pastor Rony Tan did & then apologied duely & accordingly once, would Singapore ISD or PAP government close one eye too? If so, I think the Rule Of Law in Singapore is dead!
More so, there will be more & more hidden agenda such like - STILL WATER RUNNING DEEP! The LightHouse Evangeism shoud be charged accordingly & bring the set-up or organisation to book. They had insulted/bullied/targetted the 51% of Buddhists & Taoists in Singapore as well as gave a slap to many foreigners & tourists of other religions around the Asian regions. What about the reputation of Singapore to its neighbour as well as to the whole world? After Chinese New Year, we will patiently wait & see the outcome of this legal issue.
Oh Tham Eng
Feb 17, 2010 18:59
SADLY, ONE RELIGION TALKING NEGATIVELY ABOUT ANOTHER RELIGION WILL BE WITH US FOR THE NEXT 1,000 YEARS AND MORE
Dear Oh Tham Eng,
-You are quite intelligent person as I see it from my personal own-point of view & in fact I quite agree most of the points you had been written so far but I am very surprised you keep on quoting/clinging/attaching the same strong words/stories of your personal own belief/religion right in front us here when you chat/discuss/debate or whatever you are doing here so far! I am real disappointed indeed! I hope I am wrong about you! You have done a good job so far as a Christian as a matter of fact as per Rev Pastor Rony Tan case/issue!
-However, if you keep on standing on your stubborness of religion as a basis to talk here & if most Singaporeans who do not agree with you use the same method to counter react your points, I think you are pretty right to say that it may take another 1000 years or more to cool down & settle the dust… bearing in mind that apart from the Christianity & Islam – both had gone through thousands years of conflicts & wars because of the extrems ideologies/concepts! Your standing ground is strangly inappropriate in my point of view.
-On the other hand if you stand on your own group of Christianity of same group with that kind of strong authoritive/powerful belief to chat/discuss/debate, you are 100% appropriate or correct to my humble & shallow level of understanding as a third person because strictly I am not bind with any religion though officially I am stated as a Buddhist in my identity card.
- peace