By Yini Chua
Step into any ACS school, and you would be hard-pressed to find anyone conversing in Mandarin. As an alumnus aptly articulated, the surest way of gaining notoriety is to ‘get a loudhailer and start singing Chinese songs at the top of your voice’.
During my two years’ stint in ACJC, it was not uncommon to hear about how our school, a traditional enclave of atas – high class – English speaking students from single-sex mission schools such as MGS or ACS(I), has been diluted by the influx of students from SAP schools.
In other words, people like myself.
Born into a Chinese-speaking family, and having attended Nan Hua Secondary, I was the epitome of a cheenah kid. Having spoken Mandarin up till the point when I entered ACJC, I experienced a culture shock in my first few days of school, where virtually all of my classmates spoke English. My insecurity was further magnified by the secondary school uniform I was wearing.
It is a classic case of how ‘clothes maketh the man’. In ancient Rome, your clothes not only showed your status in society but also pinpointed exactly the layer to which you belong.
It is not much different nowadays. It is a sad fact that most people are judged by which school they came from, rather than by their real talents that lie underneath the clothes.
Yes, the world is my oyster. But the oyster speaks English and wears an MGS uniform.
This is not an isolated case. English-speaking elitism is a growing phenomenon in Singapore, as families who communicate solely in English are fast becoming the majority, providing sharp relief into the cultural differences cleavaging the local Chinese community.
Of course, the economy has a big part to play. Since independence, English has been dominant as the language of commerce and government. It has assumed the role of a de-facto lingua franca of Singaporeans, as its accessibility did not provide any racial group with any ostensible linguistic advantage, particularly the Chinese majority.
More parents are encouraging their children to adopt English as their first language, in the name of pragmatism. It is an accepted fact that being fluent in the language paves way for a smoother career trajectory.
However, the outward rejection of one’s mother tongue, especially Mandarin, has, in recent years, gained momentum among the younger generation. It is an unintended, regrettable consequence that the inability to write and speak Mandarin has become a point of pride among youths.
In fact, offering the Chinese Language ‘B’ syllabus (CLB) has morphed into a badge of honour for such students, as a testament to their inferior Chinese speaking skills.
The fact that being incompetent in one’s mother tongue has become a ticket to popularity speaks volumes about our level of maturity and our desire to hold on to our traditional heritage.
My 9 years old cousin is an exemplification of this point. When confronted about his dismal grade in Chinese, he self-righteously exclaimed, ‘But I got A star for my English what. And Chinese is so hard to learn.’
At that point of time I was very acutely aware of my grandmother’s expression – one of resignation.
Although Chinese is not an easy language to learn, it is our responsibility as ethnic Chinese to be proficient in our mother tongue. The motivation behind learning a language should not be anything but intrinsic.
By intrinsic, I am referring to the innate interest in one’s native tongue and the acknowledgement of the importance of its role in keeping culture alive.
Even the recent state-sponsored revival of Mandarin can be attributed to economic practicalities. The national obsession with pragmatism has resulted in a population that is hyper-efficient only in the manufacture of tangible results. The productive ethic of this island state has been secured at the price of cultural degradation.
This phenomenon paints a very pessimistic picture for Chinese cultural development. The socio-cultural architecture of this nation is increasingly reflecting the tabula rasa of our physical landscape, where cultural relics and architecture will still stand in their pristine condition, but without evoking any sentiment. Their fate as empty and polished shells is the danger that faces the culturally lobotomized children of the future.
The history behind Nantah is a treasure trove of stories that narrates the sacrifices of the local Chinese population as they endeavored to build an oasis of education for the future generation.
Now, precisely because of the borrowed cachet of history, its contemporary namesake is ridiculed for its cheenah-ness.
The Chinese adage of remembering the spring when drinking water, encapsulating the need for gratitude towards our elders. Reaping the fruits that our ancestors have shed blood and tears for, the younger generation has to fulfill our responsibility and ensure the continuity of our culture.
We should also seek to transcend the functional logic that underscores the government’s interest in Mandarin and appreciate our culture beyond the state-imposed understanding of racial categorization. The appreciation of Chinese culture may begin but should not end with Mandarin; rather it should be the tentative to steps to rekindle our interest in the dialects and practices that have been reduced to obscurity, both by the state and by ourselves.
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Headline photo courtesy of chinnian
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Hansen,
(1) “…LionCitizen, dont be an idiot. anglicised is commonly used to describe your accent being anglicised…”
MM Lee has once used the word “anglicized” when he said: “We will lose our dynamism and become totally English speaking, Anglicised or westernised.”. (Ref: http://www.moe.gov.sg/media/press/2004/CLCPRC.htm)
That is how I used the word anglicized.
(2) “…english is the first language of singapore. we are schooled in english since young. we do study another language but that is only as an extra subject…”
As Singaporeans, all of us have gone through bilingual education if we attended schools after 1968. So, yes, English is the first language and Mother Tongue (MT) the second language. To all races, including your Malay and Indian friends, MT is not an extra subject, it is our language.
(3) “…why should we be speaking the “extra subject” instead of our main language english? it doesn’t make sense…”
As MT is our language, not an extra subject, it makes sense for us to learn and speak it besides using English.
(4) “…road signs, menus, internet forums, instructions on your shampoo all are in english. why in the world would you want to speak another language?…”
We have agreed to embrace English as common language for all races but never at the expense of our own languages. That is why we have the bilingual policy and 4 official languages. Thus, allow English to be the first language dose not means that we can not speak our own language among the same race.
(5) “…what is the utility of chinese? with chinese u can connect with china or taiwan only. and china is poor as hell, gdp per capita is even lower than thailand and iran……with english, you can connect to the entire world – EU, australia, us, carribean, africa, oceania, fiji, nz, etc etc…even asia…”
When we started our bilingual policy in late 1960s, China was even poorer, now it is much better, thus from utility point of views, we should have stronger reason to learn Chinese language.
(6) “…singapore was a british colony for 200 years, of course our language is english. we were never part of china, why should we speak mandarin? …”
The fact that most Malaysians and Singaporeans were not anglicized during 200 years of colonial times has proved that English was not our language at all. It is thus a great irony that all races in Singapore have to face Anglicization after we have just independent for 45 years. We really have to do somethings to enhance our bilingual policy and MT education before it is too late.
(7) “…go ahead and speak mandarin and dream of living in china. when u get to china, smell the polluted air and look at the people cutting your queue and yelling at you. then look at how ppl are starving and how degree holders are working for 1000 yuan(200sgd) a month…”
China does have a lot of problems that we hope they can solve them fairly and peacefully as soon as possible. But those are really their problems, not ours. Our problems, at least in MT issue, is how to maintain the use of MT in our homes and country, not in China, Malaysia, India or any other foreign lands which our MT may apply.
(8) “…maybe then you will wake up. singapore is not china. many of us are chinese by race but we are singaporeans, not chinese. our first language is english not chinese. our culture is totally different from the chinese..if u go to china u will see. wake up! …”
We are all Singaporeans living in our multiracial country. We do not force any race to drop their racial identity in order to show that they are more Singaporean-ness than others. Thus, it is acceptable for one to say that he or she is a Malay or Malay Singaporean, a Chinese or Chinese Singaporean, an Indian or Indian Singaporean, etc.
Besides economic reason, we have allowed English to be our first language in the spirit of uniting our multiracial society and providing fairness to all races (this is only applicable in Singapore, not other countries). And we have extended this fairness spirit to our bilingual policy to assure all races, to embrace English as first language without any worry that their MT, which will always be taught as compulsory subject in Sinapore schools, will eventually be assimilated by English.
However, in view of the current trend of Anglicization, the old worry that our MT may eventually be replaced by English if we embraced it as first language (plus all related assimilation worries) is afterall not unfounded. It can happen because our policies are too bias towards English. Therefore, in the fairness spirit of bilingual policy which we still trust, it is very reasonable for us to urge all fair-minded Singaporeans to provide and push for a level playing field for our MT.
Lastly, just like MT, all races are allowed to continue their cultures in Singapore. We have been doing this harmoniously for many years; we should continue to do so while developing common Singapore cultures for all.
Hansen,
(1) “…lioncitizen are you an idiot? why do we need to level the playing field for other languages? english is obviously the main language in singapore…”
Please refer to my previous posts for details. To put it simply, it is about the co-existence of 2 languages. We have to level the playing field to prevent the first language from replacing our Mother Tongue (MT).
(2) “…without english as our first language, how is everyone going to communicate? do i have to learn 3 languages just to get about my daily life? wtf? …”
Don’t worry, we are still embracing English as first language, what I am saying is we should try to provide and maintain more spaces for our MT.
(3) “…i already have problems right now with all the waitress etc from china. they dont speak english. u have to speak chinese to place ur order with them…”
The problem we should worry is whether all bosses have trained and keep reminding their waitresses from China to speak English to non-Chinese customers. As for your case, since you have learn Chinese MT in our bilingual education, it should not be a problem for you unless the watresses speak too fast with thick accent that you may not get used to.
(4) “…are u suggesting all singaporean chinese speak chinese as our first language? rediculous. …”
We should encourage all races to continue using their MT as family language and always seek opportunities to improve the proficiency of their MT to higher level (since most people will only learn MT at second language level in schools). It is our language, it worth us to learn and use it, not replace it.
(5) “…i think u are mixing race with language…”
Have I mixed race with language (or MT language)? I think we may see the question in 3 stages.
For majority of Singaporeans and in Singapore context:
(a) Before we learn English as first language, race and MT language do mix or match.
(b) After we learn English as first language and under the bilingual policy, race and MT language are still mixed or matched.
(c) It is only when the effects of Anglicization have taken roots (eg, MT language being replaced by English) that it begin to make some people to think otherwise, i.e. race and MT language do not mix or match because their MT language has already been replaced by English.
Hence, probably you are viewing race and language from stage (c).
(6) “…i am chinese singaporean. my culture is singaporean culture not chinese culture. i speak english and singlish, my local dialect. i got nothing to do with china. my friends consist of malay, indians, phillipinos, chinese etc. it does not consist of zhejiang people, shenzhen people and guangzhou people…”
Yes, you are Chinese Singaporean; your culture is Chinese Singaporean culture, not China culture or English culture. You speak English and Singlish. You attended our bilingual education, learn Chinese MT, and were taught to respect the languages, cultures and religions of all races. This should be a typical profile of modern Singaporean; it is really got nothing to do with China.
(7) “…it is just like saying the americans, australians, south africans should have the same culture as britain since their ancestors are from britain. rediculous. the link has long been cut. we are soverign…it is high time people like you wake up and stop associating chinese singaproeans with china. we have got nothing to do with china. we are singaporeans…”
In fact, to me, the main language and religion of these countries are quite similar. They are from their ancestors; they have never replaced them or allow any language or religion to assimilate them. And they do not need to declare to anybody that they are different from Britain.
These are precisely what we are doing in Singapore in term of our ancestors’languages and cultures under the bilingual policy framework; and we should continue to do so.
lioncitizen,
i would appreciate if the prc or whoever waitress can take my order in english instead of chinese. why?
simply because this is singapore not a province of china. our first language is english not chinese. i may speak rather fluent chinese but both my parents do not speak fluent chinese.
if your menu is in english, why are you speaking to me in mandarin? and why is it when i order my food in english, you cannot understand?
i speak english as my first language and english is the language of business and commerce, so why do i have to compromise in my own country to someone who is supposed to serve me and make my dinner a pleasant one? and i am paying for that waitress as well!
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the americans, australians, south africans have way different culture from britain. african americans have way different culture from africans. asian/latino americans have wayyy different culture from latin america or asia.
going by your reasoning, when you see an african male in america you can speak to him in afrikaans? or when you see a chinese american male you can speak to him in chinese? they dont even speak afrikaans or chinese.
even within the uk itself, the welsh and scottish are an entirely different race from the english. but they ended up speaking english nevertheless. why? because it is more useful to do so.
latin america ended up speaking spanish because they were once colonies of spain. singapore ended up speaking english because we were once (for 150 yrs) a colony of britain.
why? because it is more useful to do so.
at the end of the day, chinese is not a useful language when compared to english. it is as simple as that.
if chinese is spoken worldwide by the eu, america, nz, australia, canada, africa, carribean, even asia, i would make extra effort to learn it.
but chinese is only spoken in china. and i have no interest in china because it is poor and they have problems making ends meet themself. i dont see any improvement in the future as well because they are under a dictatorship.
a language should be useful. there is no point in speaking mandarin if you are living in singapore because you compete in english.
in fact, i regret learning chinese. learning malay or french would have helped me more since i have more interests in malaysia and europe than china. i can retire in malaysia while collecting rent in singapore.
Hansen Mar 8, 2010 15:07,
one writes hokkien and mandarin in CHINESE characters.
mandarin, hokkien, cantonese, hainanese and the like are all dialects.
then what is a language?
a language is merely a dialect lucky enough to be chosen as the gold standard.
this is almost always a socio-political decision and nothing to do with any inherent superiority of the dialect chosen.
I started out in a mandarin-speaking family who was hardly comfortable in speaking any English but by the end of my primary school education, I actually found myself shunning the Chinese language, other my hacked up version of Mandarin and Cantonese which I use to communicate with my family and friends in. After some self-reflection and a bit of retrospect, I think I understand why.
While my English education in primary school was enjoyable with the teachers coming up with plenty of innovative ways to help us learn, Chinese lessons were totally dull and boring, and was mostly memorization-based. I still can’t get over how I was actually forced to memorized the definition of phrases, WORD BY WORD. When I tried to come up with my own definitions during tests or exams, even when my definitions were technically correct, I had marks deducted. It may very well be the sadistic nature of the old-fashioned Chinese teachers at work, but I choose not to believe that.
This was the case in secondary school too. It felt as if Chinese was FORCED onto me by some old-fashioned aunties/uncles. English teachers were usually innovative in their methods of teaching, while Chinese teachers were innovative in punishment methods. Naturally, who do you think a teenager (or anyone) would prefer? Furthermore, I felt that Chinese teachers had always bored me with their backward-thinking mentality instead of approaching a more open-minded approach to issues.
Okay, that was just some background on how my personal views on the Chinese language was formed. My real argument is this: a culture is the way of life of a society in the present, it’s who we are in the present - not in the past nor future. Yes, history can be considered part of a culture too, but remember that a culture can change over time. It is dynamic, not static. Just because our ancestors used the Chinese language predominantly doesn’t mean that we are obliged to do so. If some of us speak English and some speak Mandarin, this is our culture. Due to many of our forefathers being immigrants, and the fact that we were once a colony of the British Empire, our society is not as homogeneous as Japan or China. In our diverse culture, expect different people to have different language preferences.
I chose English as my primary language because I prefer it, not because I am ashamed to be an Asian, like what some people may incorrectly assume. Why else would I learn Thai and be so proud of my ability to speak Cantonese, which is actually more relevant to my ancestry than Mandarin?
exactly.
what is the point of speaking mandarin? how many countries in the world and which supranational organisation speak mandarin? only china speaks mandarin
how many countries in the world has english as an official language? 53!
how many countries in the world do not have english as an official language but speak it widely – all the countries in europe !
how many supranational bodies work in english – all!
what is the point of learning chinese unless you want to do business in china? even in china, you would be of a higher social standing if you dont speak chinese. even in china, english is more important than chinese and you get paid much more if you speak english as compared to chinese!
they already have 1.3billion perfect mandarin speaker. they dont need anymore.
agongkia,
you are just a chinese helicopter.
i hope you enjoy poverty because with your lack of english skill and your singlish crap, you will get nowehere even in your own country.
but dont let me wake you up from your delusions.
even if you go to china, with 1.3 billion chinese who speak perfect mandarin, many of whom are phds, master degree holders,i doubt you you will be able to survive.
i doubt you can find any decent job given your poor english and lack of education. you will probably be working for 1000 yuan (200 sgd) a month clearing tables.
if you are a singaporean who is fluent in standard english, you can easily make 5000 yuan or 80000 yuan just based on the fact that you speak english alone. if you have a skill, you can make even more than that.
in fact, english teachers in china make 5-10k yuan easily just by teaching english.
Hansen,
“anyone who thinks they will be accepted just like that is naive. some will accept you with open arms, some will put u down just because they can.
but who cares about those who put you down?”
It’s undeniable that many in sg are trying to be like and act like the westerners. They thought that their culture are more superior and disown their parent/grandparent’s culture. They thought that they belong to the community.
Are you one of them?
Yes, many in the world speak from non-English speaking countries can speak English. But very seldom will their not speak their own ethnic language or even disown/despise it. Eg. The French don’t like to speak English, they prefer to speak their own language because they are proud of it. The French descendant in Canada speak French as well, its also the official language of Canada, can you see your logic flaw now?
You can speak mandarin, the waitress can’ speak English. So while the waitress need to be trained further in English, why don’t you speak to her in mandarin at the moment? Mandarin is one of the four official language, therefore it’s not wrong to speak it, understand?
You call people idiots and nuts, is it because of your anglicized culture that make you an ill-mannered person?
justkaypoh, the moment we speak Mandarin, we aren’t honoring our ancestor’s cultures either. Most of our ancestors spoke dialects, not Mandarin. To fully honor it, we should speak our grandparents’ respective dialects, not Mandarin. By reinforcing Mandarin, we are actually bowing to those blighted PRC immigrants who are making our lives more difficult with each passing year.
And it is funny that many of us forget that the British founded Singapore. We were the immigrants back then.
so why do the welsh and scottish speak english? why do americans/canadians/australians who were descendents of germans, poles, dutch etc speak english? why do the ghanians and bahamians and fijians speak english?
why do idiots like you not understand that singaporeans by default speak english as their first language because that was the way we were brought up since young in school? why do retards like you try so hard not to speak proper english even though everything around you is in english?
in fact, if you dont speak english, which is the first language of your own country well, i have got nothing to say to you.
is it because of your lack of education and your inability to read english that made you such a retard?
you need to take out the world map and look at where china is and where singapore is. will it surprise you that many singaporeans have never been to china, dont care about china and even if they have people being murdered during tian an men etc or decide to take another “great leap forward” and starve a few millions to death, that is not my problem. because we are singaporean not chinese?
Jason,
So in short, are you speaking your dialect since you brought this up? So by your own logic, reinforcing English means to bow to the British or Americans?
Just like some posters said that during the British colonial times, most people don’t speak English, and the British did not force our forefathers to speak their language!
Its only pseudo-Anglo people like to ‘carry’ the Brits. Haven’t you mean those people who are especially good to the whites (esp. those customer service staffs)
your forefathers were chinese citizens and you are singaporean citizen you idiot. they grew up with dialects as their first language, you grew up with english as your first language.
ya la ya la…everyone who speaks english is trying to be pseudo anglo la…that makes 53 countries who have english as an official language anglo wannabes. the ghanians, jamaicans, trinidians, scottish all trying to act ang moh la hoh ah pek.
i know i know…all caucasians speak english… all english accents are the same and english has no dialects like broad scots, singlish, patois, sourthern american etc..
chinese helicopter.
so how? after work at the hawker center meeting your prc girlfriend to sing ktv lounge? how many bottles of martell are you opening?
btw why do you type in english? why are you “carrying” the brits?
have you ever considered moving back to your forefather’s province in china? you can speak your dialect all day long and everything is in mandarin! wont that be great? you dont have to speak english in singapore!
Hansen,
“so why do the welsh and scottish speak english? why do americans/canadians/australians who were descendents of germans, poles, dutch etc speak english? why do the ghanians and bahamians and fijians speak english?”
As I said that many can speak English but choose to speak their own language, I’d been to Wales before, I only hear them speaking Welsh to themselves and they told me they dislike to speak English.
Do you know that most European language derive from their ancestors language which is Germanic? So its not surprising for the North Americans to use a European language as they are from different European Countries.
About the Ghianians etc, it’s probably that they don’t have a great and strong original language. And ofcourse like some Singaporeans, they will to be anglicized.
“why do idiots like you not understand that singaporeans by default speak english as their first language because that was the way we were brought up since young in school?”
I don’t get what you mean. Did you mean “Singaporean should treat English as their default language since it’s the first language of the students in school.”?
Probably you mean to brush up your English that you are promoting.
Hmm, maybe you should be further anglicized.
If that’s what you meant. Oh, sorry, I don’t understand why by default we should English. Is that a law? Was there a campaign to tell us to use English as the default language? Since young, I speak to my friend in school in Mandarin.
“why do retards like you try so hard not to speak proper english even though everything around you is in english?”
I don’t consider myself as a retard, so I don’t know who are you referring to too. Someone said EVERYTHING around them is in English, this will mean: had not seen or heard other languages” maybe this logic will make the person who supported this illogical fact seems retarded.
“in fact, if you dont speak english, which is the first language of your own country well, i have got nothing to say to you.”
Oh, I think you got your facts wrong, can you show prove of it? Or it’s just your own hallucination?
“is it because of your lack of education and your inability to read english that made you such a retard?”
I can understand that when people start to lose in their arguments, they will end up in emotional personal attack.
Your choice of words, only further show the shallow culture of anglicized Singaporeans. Maybe you should start learning some classic Chinese ethics and philosophy just like what many westerners are doing.
“you need to take out the world map and look at where china is and where singapore is. will it surprise you that many singaporeans have never been to china, dont care about china and even if they have people being murdered during tian an men etc or decide to take another “great leap forward” and starve a few millions to death, that is not my problem. because we are singaporean not chinese?”
Ya, I saw the map, China is closer to Singapore than, US and Britain is to Singapore. And US and civil war with slavery as well. Is that what you meant?
“You call people idiots and nuts, is it because of your anglicized culture that make you an ill-mannered person?”
Just to dispel this common myth, I’ve encountered many English-speaking Singaporeans who would hold the lift for me and thank me for doing the same. Lots of times too. On the other hand, I have also encountered Chinese-speaking aunties who would waltz through the door of a lift which I held, and then retreat to a corner without a simple ”Thanks”, like as if I’m paid to hold the lift for them.
I suggested using dialect instead of Mandarin because I thought that since you place such a huge importance on honoring the culture of your ancestors by using language as the medium, I thought you might find it relevant. I myself honor my ancestors’ culture through the enduring festivals and customs, not through the superficial uplifting of a language. For your info, I do speak some Mandarin and Cantonese to people around me too, but I do not see those who do not speak my mother tongue as “arrogant” or “ashamed”. They probably do so for their own reasons, and dismissing it as “being ashamed of their roots” is simply being ignorant and superficial.
“So by your own logic, reinforcing English means to bow to the British or Americans?So by your own logic, reinforcing English means to bow to the British or Americans?”
Fine, 1 point for you. I lose by my own words.
“Its only pseudo-Anglo people like to ‘carry’ the Brits. Haven’t you mean those people who are especially good to the whites (esp. those customer service staffs)”
I personally despise people who give whites preferential treatment, because these are the people with self-esteem so low that they actually believe that whites are better than them. However, this isn’t an issue with language. It’s race.
“Was there a campaign to tell us to use English as the default language?”
No that I’ve known of. And that is what I’m trying to say. While English has assimilated our culture naturally, it seems that people are trying to push Mandarin artificially.
Have you seen Singaporean-Indians doing the same thing to Tamil? From my observations, most of them speak English among themselves home.
hansen
You have no idea how useful and how proud I feel to have my own language or mother tongue (Mandarin and dialects) when in England. When my neighbour’s cat poo-ed in my garden, I can ‘let off steam’ in my dialect and feel good without my neigbour having a clue what I have just said about them.
Amongst Chinese, we speak in Mandarin as much as possible. Its great that the English people cannot understand us but when they converse in English, we call all understand them. For your info, I have not met an English person who feel as proud as you, of the English language.
“Just to dispel this common myth, I’ve encountered many English-speaking Singaporeans who would hold the lift for me and thank me for doing the same. Lots of times too. On the other hand, I have also encountered Chinese-speaking aunties who would waltz through the door of a lift which I held, and then retreat to a corner without a simple ”Thanks”, like as if I’m paid to hold the lift for them.”
I was just a rhetoric use on Hansen. But it’s a fact that many English speaking natives youth are ill-mannered.
I English-speaking locals are better mannered than the aunties simply because they are better educated. I believe these locals, most can speak mandarin/MT. The context here is the anglicized people who disown their own language.
“I suggested using dialect instead of Mandarin because I thought that since you place such a huge importance on honoring the culture of your ancestors by using language as the medium, I thought you might find it relevant.”
If you read my previous post to Hansen, I mentioned that most European languages are Germanic, so that are a group.
Mandarin was one of the dialects/language in China. These languages share a common text (with some slight differences). So they are a group, this is a known fact about linguistics.
“I myself honor my ancestors’ culture through the enduring festivals and customs, not through the superficial uplifting of a language.“
This I think it just your personal opinion, most sociologist and people will agree that the key to understand a culture is to learn the language first. E.g. if you don’t not know English, do you think your knowledge of the western culture will be as it is?
“For your info, I do speak some Mandarin and Cantonese to people around me too, but I do not see those who do not speak my mother tongue as “arrogant” or “ashamed”. They probably do so for their own reasons, and dismissing it as “being ashamed of their roots” is simply being ignorant and superficial.”
I did not say that EVERYONE who is like that is ashamed of their roots, from what I observed many are like that. These people even glorify about their weakness in the Chinese language. Many attested to these phenomena. An undeniable fact.
“Fine, 1 point for you. I lose by my own words.”
I’ll consider you a gentleman (at least on the net) . Someone who admit one’s mistake, it’s so super rare to find online. If you can spot a logical flaw in my statement, I’m more than willing to admit it.
“Have you seen Singaporean-Indians doing the same thing to Tamil? From my observations, most of them speak English among themselves home.”
Did you observe that most Malays speak to themselves in bahasa? Probably the Malays are more proud of their own language.
Hansen
What a loser you are. Wasting time in the forum.
“But it’s a fact that many English speaking natives youth are ill-mannered.”
That’s a meaningless statement. Many Mandarin speakers rude. Many Japanese speakers are rude. It doesn’t say anything. Many serial killers enjoy eating ice-cream.
It would be meaningful to say that a larger percentage of English speakers are rude as compared to the percentage of Chinese speakers who are rude, but I seriously doubt you can make that claim.
“English-speaking locals are better mannered than the aunties simply because they are better educated. I believe these locals, most can speak mandarin/MT. The context here is the anglicized people who disown their own language.”
Because they are better mannered and educated, therefore you believe that most of them can speak Mandarin? The logic is baffling.
If an American-born Chinese grew up in an English environment speaking English, would you still blame him for “disowning” his language simply because of his skin colour? Even though Mandarin bears absolutely no significance to him and the surroundings he knows as home?
Culture is how we live our lives, not how our ancestors lived theirs. I agree there shouldn’t be a need for individuals to be proud of not knowing Chinese, but at the same time no one should be forced to learn a language just because of his/her race. We already know the languages needed to live our own lives. That is our culture. Everything else should be left to one’s own discretions and be respected as such.
DM
“That’s a meaningless statement. Many Mandarin speakers rude. Many Japanese speakers are rude. It doesn’t say anything. Many serial killers enjoy eating ice-cream.
“It would be meaningful to say that a larger percentage of English speakers are rude as compared to the percentage of Chinese speakers who are rude, but I seriously doubt you can make that claim.”
By using your own logic, Jason’s statement does not stand as well right?
Jason “I’ve encountered many English-speaking Singaporeans who would hold the lift for me and thank me for doing the same. Lots of times too. On the other hand, I have also encountered Chinese-speaking aunties who would waltz through the door of a lift which”
I guessed you’ve told him that there are many English-speaking aunties are rude too.
This is what we say general observations. Few years back, when I was at Leicester square London where a lot of youth hangout, I heard very frequently spewing of expletives from them.
Even the Londoners agree that the youth are getting more rude(I was told by some), should I ask them, what’s the percentage, when was the study done?
I don’t have that much of expletives at Far east square/Orchard road from the youth here or in Beijing/Taipei.
How about comparing the western/local youths in Clark Quay?
When someone say the rude PRCs, did you tell them there are rude Singaporeans as well?
“Because they are better mannered and educated, therefore you believe that most of them can speak Mandarin? The logic is baffling.”
JKP: “I English-speaking locals are better mannered than the aunties simply because they are better educated. I believe these locals, most can speak mandarin/MT.”
These are my exact words, you have mistaken and mis-quoted me. I was trying to point out that the better manners are not due to choice of language spoken but due to the education level. In sg, context most people are at least bilingual (most Chinese here can speak some Mandarin).
“If an American-born Chinese grew up in an English environment speaking English, would you still blame him for “disowning” his language simply because of his skin colour? Even though Mandarin bears absolutely no significance to him and the surroundings he knows as home?”
Will find China/Singapore-born Americans grew up in China/Sg not speaking and despise English? Will fellow Americans find them wrong? I believe yes, likewise. The ABC should carry on with their own language. However, it much easier to pick up MT in Sg than in the US.
“Culture is how we live our lives, not how our ancestors lived theirs.”
I don’t agree, that’s maybe your own definition. I don’t think I should explain further, you should be smart enough to know why.
“but at the same time no one should be forced to learn a language just because of his/her race.”
In sg context, does that mean not one should be force to learn English too? I’d smart friends who got retained in school promotion just because they fail English. Furthermore English don’t belong to most of our races. So from this view, your point don’t seem to stand.(in school context). But in daily life, who is forcing who?
hmm justkaypoh,
do you intend to petition the government to write all the laws of singapore in mandarin for you to read?
maybe our judges can jiang hua yu as well?
how about we get our schools and unis to jiang hua yu as well?
then we can start changing all our signboards into chinese characters. i just looked at my shampoo and realised it was in english. my shampoo has been anglicised.
how do you explain the fact that the carribean nations, belize, fuji, samoa, cameron, south africans speak english then? they are not caucasians as well. and they speak standard english with their own accents? they also have their own english dialects?
here pick your choice
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_where_English_is_an_official_language
how about the UN, nato, ASEAN, APEC, EU, and practically every supranational organisation in the world? they all speak english?
do you want them all to jiang hua yu?
“Will find China/Singapore-born Americans grew up in China/Sg not speaking and despise English? Will fellow Americans find them wrong? I believe yes, likewise. The ABC should carry on with their own language. However, it much easier to pick up MT in Sg than in the US.”
May I ask why should they do that? Why do they have the responsibility of perpetuating a language that is of no tangible link to them? Simply because of their race? Do you really find that burden logically justifiable or is it merely an idea that you personally find appealing?
I seriously doubt that German and French people living in Europe care about the fact that descendants of German and French immigrants in the US no longer speak their “mother” (or more like grandmother/great grandmother) tongue. And your argument about Germanic language is just factually wrong since only a few European languages trace their roots there. French is a Romance language for example. In fact there are more Romance languages than Germanic.
In any case, the whole point opens a can of worm that baffles me. If a Chinese Singaporean speaks Japanese exclusively, does he “betray” his heritage to a lesser extend than if he spoke English exlusively due to the historical ties between Chinese and Japnese? What about Tibetan? Some Eastern European language that was influenced by Chinese? Considering the fact that most Chinese today have mixed Han and Mongolian blood, aren’t we betraying some part of our ancestor’s culture no matter what we do?
Since North America was colonized by Europeans who spoke a large variety of languages which you nevertheless claim to be close enough to English to justify their almost-exclusive use of American English today, shouldn’t the fact that Singapore was also British colony and today functions as a global trading hub in a world where English remains the standard language of trade play some part in your assertion that Singaporeans choosing Singaporean English over Mandarin are merely idolizing the West? Are you sure there is no good case for English’s roots in Singapore and its national identity? What do you think Singlish represents?
Again, I have nothing against anyone learning any languages. And in Singapore, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from learning Mandarin and claiming it as your mother tongue. Regional languages change, evolve and go extinct constantly. On some level, there’s sentimental value in preserving and promoting languages that you identify with, but it’s not something you can guilt people into doing by branding them “traitors”. Such futile actions only lead to knee-jerk backlash from individuals such as Hansen who feel the need to justify his distaste for Mandarin to others.
Just as many regions in China have been made to adopt Mandarin at the detriment of various minority dialects, the situation in Singapore vastly favours the propagation of English and indeed Singlish. You can call it anglicization or whatever and rant about social ills and lost of cultural identity, but I see it simply as the evolution of a Singaporean culture, one based on English and is accessible to all races, and I feel that it is more relevant and important to Singaporeans than the sense of Chinese identity one gains from Mandarin.
Western values may be present in Singapore, but I’m sure no Westerner would say that Singapore shares as his country of origin. If Chinese traditionalists feel that Chinese culture is being butchered by Anglicized Singaporeans, I wonder what the Brits feel about Singlish?
So really, just what is your culture? I find that there’s no real need to hand on to the past and at the same time no real need to make the effort to cast it away. Things just happen. Singaporean culture today is already vastly different from Chinese culture. No use pointing fingers now.
To DM Mar 10, 2010 1:12
I agree with your point of view.
However, we have too many people, who chose to be ignorant of other people’s culture and language in the belief that theirs’ are more superior.
And the sad part is, they don’t realise how bigoted and racists their views are. To equate one’s behaviour to the language one speaks shows how ignorant they are.
IMHO, we do not have much choice even though we are purportedly a multi-racial society. The majority will always try to impose their will on the minority. And the majority being the ‘Chinese-speaking’ Chinese.
We should be free to choose to learn the language we believe should serve us best.
justkaypoh is obviously a schizophrenic uneducated trash who works at a low level job because everyone shudders when they hear him speak in his broken english.
he touches himself while thinking about living in china all day long.
hanson
hahaha ..since when did I say speaking english makes you a caucasian?You got the wrong person or you have difficulty understanding what I say?
The name AGONGKIA is given to me by MYSELF.Because I heard the Taiwanese say Nthee Kong Nthia Gong Larng and I want to be doted by the Nthee Kong.You know what is Nthee Kong?Oops I forgot,anyway need not find out from your friend.
My view is that Singlish should our first language becos we are Singaporean.All races can speak Singlish and will more closer irregardless of races.We should not stress so much on speaking English .Speaking SINGLISH may appear to be ridiculous(“not rediculous” as you have spelled here)but that doesnt meant it is impossible one day.
If you enjoy bashing others,pls look at yourself too.Check for your english spelling before you post.Even a lowly educated who worth 1000 yuan a month and useless netizen like me can spot your grammer mistake.I think “ Npua kin Mai chio puay neo”.Oops..sorry I forgot you got to check what I am talking again.
I learnt from a netizen Patriot a useful sentence.Rotten woods are only good for the furnaces.I love to use it and I will not debate further here.
Hansen, as much as I agree on your views in this discussion, please stop attacking justkaypoh personally. Just saying.
agongkia,
i shudder to think of hearing you speak english in your terrible singlish and shitty accent. i will laugh at you in your face whenever you open your mouth.
continue speaking singlish please, it will give standard english speakers like myself a bigger advantage. if everyone speaks perfect rp english then who will we step on?
i would love to write more but i dont want to waste time on illiterate lowlives. people from the higher classes of society don’t like to argue and correspond to singlish and broken english speakers. one day, if and when you grow a brain, you will understand why.
well done on the singlish and dialect, now go mop my floor.
jason,
i am not making a deliberate effort to attack him. i am merely calling a spade a spade.
by the way, what is Jason Dyman Low ?
an english first and middle name; and a chinese last name. most singaporeans have a english first name, chinese middle and last name.
is that your real name? do young singaporeans give themselves such unique names these day?
Hansen,
thanks, for your insightful post.
what i can gleen from it:
- there is something wrong with you if you will laugh at others for no good reason just because they open their mouth.
- there is a class (social) divide in S’pore.
- you may have a brain, but like other top scorers of their years. they do not seem to contribute to society much & have a superiority complex.
- you maybe a prime example of how resources have gone to waste investing in acadamic elites that do not yield much tangible benefit to the betterment of S’poreans.
looks like our much touted world class education system has its flaws afterall…
Hansen, the origin of my name is totally beyond the scope of this discussion. I’d love to have a fair and civil discussion, but your arrogance towards the other participants (who have displayed a much higher maturity level than you) is ruining whatever intelligent points you have made.
DM does seem like an articulate, mature and intelligent guy.
agongkia, kaypoh, mic and you seem to have the maturity and worldliness of a 16 year old.
the percentage is just about right. idiots who make no sense always outnumber intelligent reasonable men who make excellent sense.
Jason Dyman Low
online should have more posters like you, level headed & cool at all times. not easily drawn into flame wars by others who do not exercise restraint.
let’s avoid being drawn off topic. i wonder if there are “cyber thugs” out there to discredit the online platform as negative as they try to make it.
cheers. ;)
typical example of singlish with bad syntax and grammar borrowed from mandarin
-> online should have more posters like you
it should be “we should have more posters like you online”
->i wonder if there are “cyber thugs” out there to discredit the online platform as negative as they try to make it.
what the hell are you trying to say?
i smell another uneducated, singlish and pidgin english speaker. yet another waste-of-space. nothing turns me off more than these people.
Practically, the mother tongue is the language you speak at home or in the language your mother speaks to you at home. For many, it is now English so the mother tongue is “naturally” English. Yes I am chinese and so is my wife and we don’t speak mandarin at home to our kids, as our mandarin is well only conversational at best. So not surprisingly our kids don’t enjoy learning mandarin and don’t fair too well in their mandarin exams.
Incidentally, mandarin is a DIALECT of the northern Chinese, and my dialect or mother tongue is historically and maybe even genetically, FooChow.
i was just watching this wang lee hom skype interview.
http://www.razor.tv/site/servlet/segment/main/92/38402.html
the english spoken by these people made me shudder. even as a local, i cannot help shaking my head. i have trouble understanding these people myself.
none of the fans managed to speak one simple sentence in english properly. none. zilch. zero.
pronounciation is off. intonation is off. syntax is off.
these young people are supposed to be schooled in english for almost 2 decades of their lives. and they can’t even speak a single sentence in english properly.
not RP english. not GA english. just simple, good old standard singapore english. and none of them can do it.
Hansen,
you may have missed the point of language as tool for communication. not a sport where 1 tries to 1 up another person.
btw, where is this Oxbridge in the article ["Who Elected this Clowns?" post on March 10, 2010 14:53] you were saying?
:D
Hansen,
btw, if you can understand me to the point you can correct my less than perfect english. then my english is not so bad, right?
i can’t say “we should have more posters like you online” because i do not represent a group of posters or TOC. there is no “we”, just me & that is my (& mine alone) opinion.
perhaps you can enlighten everyone how to smell people, educated or not? specifically, which part of the person do you smell? which school teaches students that? bear with me, b-cos i wasn’t taught this in school! rofl…
:P
DM,
What I actually want to convey is that people from ‘stronger’ countries (or people with more pride) will tend to retain their own language.
E.g. the American born overseas will be very unlikely not to speak English or even do not like to speak. But some races from some countries will not try hard to preserve their language, say comparing to the Europeans or Americans. E.g. when they migrate their children will tend not to speak their language properly. We don’t find the children of 2nd gen Americans doing that overseas?
Get what I mean? This is a factual observation.
IMO, the culture of these people are not so deep-rooted and do not hold as much pride as say the western counterpart.
Why to ‘some’ people here treat westerners better? I could well due to inferiority complex.
To me these people are partly anglicized.
Anglicized in my own ‘definition’ means to feel/think that English(and its culture) is superior than one’s own.
If an American have a similar attitude to Chinese, then this American is ‘Chinisize’
It does NOT means that every say Chinese who can only speak English is Anglicize, I hope you get what I mean.
In short Anglicization is about the heart.
According to what I read, Germanic speaking countries are more than Romance speaking countries, in Europe.
“Western values may be present in Singapore, but I’m sure no Westerner would say that Singapore shares as his country of origin.”
I’m sure some Singaporeans thought that they share part of the Western culture. I had a friend who speaks mainly English (he’s not very anglicized) went to work in the US. When he came back for vacation, I was so surprised that he starts to speak Mandarin, he told me that he feels the need to find cultural grounding there, one reason is that the Anglos do not ‘accommodate’ him like their own even his speak their language. He found more interest in Chinese while in the US than here isn’t it ironic?
I’m NOT saying these people are wrong, they are influenced by the more western environment here. Many leave in our small island whole, travelling for short trips will not get a better picture.
Cultural roots association is important right and very advantages right? So why not make use of it? To the Singaporean Chinese, why don’t we choose either one.
If I give you either 1000 or 500 dollars, will you choose none?
u guys are blowing this way out of proportion.
it is just a matter of preference.
i speak English almost exclusively. but that does not necessarily mean that i like the f-ing racist white men that lie their way into wars all over the f-ing world.
difference.
if you guys want to talk about culture, Singapore has none.
…other than money.
hi The Just One,
hmmmm, money culture? thatz a start (so let’s get the dice rolling!). lol….
:D
justkaypoh,
english is the first language of singaporeans. your roots are in singapore not china. so you speak english. singaporean culture is a mix of east and west, embrace your own culture – english, fishball noodles, malay national anthem, all of it. singapore is not a province of china, neither are singaporeans chinese. most singaporeans have never even been to china, dont care about china and think china is very poor (gdp per capita 1/9 of singapore).
look at britain, it is 1/3 english, 2/3 scottish and welsh. going by your definition, only the english should speak english. in the uk, the welsh should speak welsh, the scots should speak scots, those in cornwall should speak cornish, others should speak gaelic. ireland should speak gaelic. but everyone speaks english there as well.
and you go on to say the welsh do speak welsh. only 10% of welsh people know how to speak welsh these days. most speak only english. so you are crazy.
same question, why is english an official language in 54 countries worldwide while chinese is official language in only 2? (singapore and china?)
singaporean chinese are different from china chinese. learn about china and you will find that we live in entirely different world. i remember asking my friend while i was in china to help me buy dental floss. and he said he has never heard of it or used it before. our “chinese food” – hokkien noodles, wantan noodles, chicken rice etc are also not found there. and seeing everything in mandarin sure gives me a bloody headache. our cultures are just entirely different.
when i am overseas and people ask me to speak in my own language, i tell them that my language is english. i am singaporean, i grew up speaking english.
just like the australians, british, ghanians, jamaicans etc.
and i speak english with a cultivated singaporean accent. and i am proud of it. i am proud of the fact that i can speak basic mandarin as well. i am proud of hokkien noodles and wantan noodles.
i dont speak with a british accent or american accent. i am singaporean and this is the way singaporean culture is.
unlike justkaypoh, i dont feel the need to try and be someone else by speaking mandarin. i also dont speak much singlish. i speak standard english with a singaporean accent.
just like how the scots speak english with their scottish accent and how the australians speak with their australian accent.
DM and justkaypoh,
“……
DM (Mar 9, 2010 21:17)
If an American-born Chinese grew up in an English environment speaking English, would you still blame him for “disowning” his language simply because of his skin colour? Even though Mandarin bears absolutely no significance to him and the surroundings he knows as home?
justkaypoh (Mar 9, 2010 23:45)
Will find China/Singapore-born Americans grew up in China/Sg not speaking and despise English? Will fellow Americans find them wrong? I believe yes, likewise. The ABC should carry on with their own language. However, it much easier to pick up MT in Sg than in the US.
DM (Mar 10, 2010 1:12)
May I ask why should they do that? Why do they have the responsibility of perpetuating a language that is of no tangible link to them? Simply because of their race? Do you really find that burden logically justifiable or is it merely an idea that you personally find appealing?
…… I seriously doubt that German and French people living in Europe care about the fact that descendants of German and French immigrants in the US no longer speak their “mother” (or more like grandmother/great grandmother) tongue.
……”
(1) To me, Anglicization of Singaporeans in Singapore is very different from Anglicization of immigrants in any English-speaking countries. The followings are the reasons.
(2) Generally speaking, it is quite common that many countries in the world are implementing the policy of using the language and culture of their major dominant race, to govern and integrate all their citizens or multiracial citizens and immigrants.
(3) Such policy when apply to immigrants is usually called the assimilation of immigrants. The assimilation will most likely on language, but in long run, it may gradually develop and deepen to include culture, religion or others customs and values.
(4) Therefore, the offspring of any immigrant, such as Chinese, German or French, who arrive in America (as subsequent immigrants), will all be assimilated to English-speaking citizens. This is part of the natural results of immigrant assimilation policy which is acceptable by all nations (That is why the German and French people living in Europe will not care about the fact that descendants of German and French immigrants in the US no longer speak their “mother” (or grandmother/great grandmother) tongue.)
(5) However, when the same policy is applied to multiracial citizens, although it will not be called the assimilation of multiracial citizens, but in long run, it may yield the same outcomes as the assimilation of immigrants. Therefore, to protect the language and cultural rights of the minority races, bilingual or multilingual policies are also quite common in countries where the language and culture of major dominant race are used to integrate the multiracial citizens. Under such situation, the language and cultural rights of the major dominant race (notably, using their language as first language) as well as the minority races (i.e. learning their mother tongues as second language) will all be taken care of in a democratic and harmonious way.
(6) If we were to follow the international norms and applied the policy of using the language and culture of major dominant race to govern and integrate the multiracial citizens in Singapore after independence, then, with a Chinese population of around 76%, using Chinese as first language while maintaining the multiracial languages and cultures of all races should be our natural choice.
(7) However, due to the considerations of many factors we all know, Singapore did not take the normal path of allowing the use of language and culture of Chinese majority to integrate all citizens. Thus, we are an exceptional country.
(8) We do not allow or practice the policy of “ruled by the language and culture of major dominant race (or vested interest group of people)”. No race will thus be integrated or assimilated by other race (or vested interest group of people) in term of language and culture. Furthermore, under the bilingual policy, the languages and cultures of all races (including the Chinese majority) will not be replaced or assimilated by English common language and its related cultures.
(9) Hence, to put it simply, in Singapore, no major dominant race/vested interest group of people, language or religion has the rights to replace or assimilate others (eg, be it chinese-cised, anglicized or otherwise), all have to co-exist under fair conditions.
(10) Using the above point of views, we would expect and accept that the minority immigrants (says, less than 12% of the total population) living in countries where the language and culture of major dominant race are used for governing and integrating citizens, will eventually be integrated or assimilated by the host countries and use their languages or even cultures.
(11) However, it should be obvious that this type of assimilation of immigrants in others countries can not be used as example to justify the Anglicization of Singaporeans in Singapore. We do not practice the policy of “ruled by the language and culture of major dominant race (or vested interest group of people)”. We are not minority living in other country. We have accepted English as our common language under the condition that, it will remain as a neutral language co-exists with our MT languages under the spirit of bilingual policy.
(12) Thus, when the supposed “neutral-co-exist” English language begins to act as a “hostile-takeover” language to replace our MT languages, thereby causing the gradual Anglicization of Singaporeans in Singapore, we have the rights to protect our core language and cultural interests and voice our concerns.
PS: Although it is good for American-Born Chinese to carry on with their own MT language, but we should not be too concerned about the assimilation and anglicization of ABCs in America or others countries. Their assimilation model and facts will not contradict our efforts to prevent the Anglicization of Singaporeans in Singapore.
Lioncitizen,
To state my point, think about you go and tell the American expats here “Why do you have the responsibility of perpetuating a language that is of no tangible link to you? ” ask them to give up English for Singlish etc.
The expat kids in China, should give up their language for Mandarin?
Is that the logic you are proposing?
Hansen, I think you got your figures wrong.
“and you go on to say the welsh do speak welsh. only 10% of welsh people know how to speak welsh these days. most speak only english. so you are crazy.”
Can we you where you got your figures?
I think Mochi hit the nail on the head when he said that Singaporeans (Chinese Singaporeans in particular in my view) do not have a mastery of any one language. (This is a generalisation of course, and for every generalisation there are exceptions. But, nonetheless, the generalisation holds true.)
I speak little Mandarin but I can quite adequately follow the everyday conversations of Singaporeans in Mandarin. Why? Because Singaporean Mandarin sounds much like the dialects “Mandarinised”.
When I was a kid, nearly all of us Chinese kids spoke the dialects. The dialects were well and truly our mother tongue – not Mandarin. We spoke the dialects well, even though it was colloquial.
When we refer to Singaporeans’ mother tongue these days, what language are we referring to? The predominant language of an increasing number of mothers in Singapore is English. By definition then, the mother tongue of the children of these English-speaking mothers is English, regardless of the ethnicity of the parents.
A lot of thinking here for the MOE.
Our educational system has been an EPIC FAILURE at language education. We have hordes of Sinkees who are neither proficient in English nor their mother tongue. Language instruction usually consists of rote learning and memorizing words, and this shoddy teaching method really causes locals to lose out in the global competition for talent.
angry_one,
agree with you. All the more, we should try hard to learn both languages.
justkaypoh,
“…To state my point, think about you go and tell the American expats here “Why do you have the responsibility of perpetuating a language that is of no tangible link to you?” ask them to give up English for Singlish etc.
The expat kids in China, should give up their language for Mandarin?
Is that the logic you are proposing?…”
(1) No, that is not the logic I proposed.
(2) Actually when I used the words immigrant and American-Born Chinese, I used them in the assumption that they have become PR or Citizen of the country they emigrate to or born in, and they have no intention to return to their original country. Thus, if they are minority immigrants, we would expect that their offspring will be assimilated by the host country’s language and culture in 2 or 3 generations.
(3) On the other hand, foreign expats are usually not immigrants but foreign workers. They have no intention to give up their original citizenships. They will return to their country when they completed their oversea assignments. Hence, no assimilation will occur and their kids will not need to give up their language for other language.
Nothing wrong with assimilation and a melting pot Singaporean identity..