Comments on: The language divide

By: justkaypoh

justkaypoh — Fri, 04 Jun 2010 04:03:13 +0000

Learn and try to master both languages will be the best. If I let you choose either a 50 and 100 note, will you choose the 50?

It is really not difficult to do that in Singapore, just create or enter the environment that can help you.

By: Focus

Focus — Fri, 04 Jun 2010 03:50:54 +0000

I think we should consider the future as a long term plan rather than just a short term economic advantage. We should continue promoting good English among non-English speakers. Because we all know in 10 years time China will be the largest English-speaking country in the world.

If you wanna argue on short term economic goals with China, must we than also learn Hindi for the next competing Economic power? Although India are well verse in English.

By: SGC

SGC — Sat, 27 Mar 2010 16:44:48 +0000

This is a very late reply, but I thought it is a necessary one too.

Maybe we should kindly remind ourselves that, just like Mandarin, English was forced on us as well, first by the British colonial masters, then by the PAP government in power. So if we allow ourselves to have English forced on us, why not Chinese, in this case Mandarin? (In fact, our forefathers were forced to have their vernacular schools (very reluctantly) shut down; perhaps that might help explain why we shouldn’t be questioning on our cultural heritage.)

Many people like to use the dialects as an excuse to “reject learning Mandarin” which I find laughable. And do these people possess good speaking skills in those dialects? Or are able to pass on those dialects to future generations? Do they also know that Hong Kongers know how to write in Chinese (readable by non-Cantonese) other than to speak in Cantonese? (Yes, and knowledge of Mandarin is not required to write in Chinese because the standard script is the same) Mandarin/Chinese is here to “save our culture” so that at the very least we are using a tongue/language that belongs to the Chinese race. Moreover, how is (the level of) culture measured? By embracing wholesale a foreign language and calling it our own, and rejecting the original native languages, be it Mandarin or dialects? Or to just be able to “speak” and “listen” without being able to “read” and “write”? To the level of only tribal culture? Civilisations progress and cultures progress, that’s why we not only know how to speak English, but also how to write in it.

Our policies have created a situation where we are encouraged to be able to handle both English and Chinese/Malay/Tamil. That leads us to the conclusion that non-Mandarin dialects are no longer feasible, which I thought is sensible. But why is Chinese (Mandarin) also seen as “unfeasible”?

By: Teochew Nang

Teochew Nang — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 02:14:42 +0000

Yini Chua
It has been some time since you posted this article so I do not know whether you are still reading the comments. Anyway, I have been intrigued by what prompted you to express your views and I decided to go back and read your article again. You made a particular statement which I think needs to be challenged.
You said
“Although Chinese is not an easy language to learn, it is our responsibility as ethnic Chinese to be proficient in our mother tongue. The motivation behind learning a language should not be anything but intrinsic.

By intrinsic, I am referring to the innate interest in one’s native tongue and the acknowledgement of the importance of its role in keeping culture alive.”
What you are saying is that as Singaporeans of Chinese origin, we should feel guilty if we show no interest in learning the Chinese language. You must realize that we are not in a unique situation. There are many large Chinese communities in the countries close to Singapore, such as Indonesia, Thailand, Vietnam and the Philippines. A very large proportion of these communities have lost the ability to speak Chinese and have embraced whole-heartedly the language of their country of adoption. They do not feel guilty or ashamed about it. You may argue that this situation arose because historically, they were forced by the governments of these countries to give up their own language in order to be assimilated into the mainstream. But that policy has since changed and yet they feel no need to go back and relearn their original language.
You can apply the same argument to the present day African Americans. Apart from a very small number of them like for example, Alex Haley who wrote the book “Roots”, the vast majority are not interested in where their forefathers came from or what languages they spoke.
I think if a person is keenly interested in his ethnic origins and wishes to master his original language and learn the culture of his forefathers, that should be viewed as a personal motivation and not as an “innate interest”.
On the subject of mother tongue, I find it laughable how the Singapore government has defined this term to apply to Mandarin when referring to the ethnic Chinese. If you go to Hong Kong or Macau and tell the people there that their mother tongue is Mandarin and not Cantonese, they will politely tell you to go jump in the lake!

By: Loyola

Loyola — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:58:19 +0000

Nothing wrong with assimilation and a melting pot Singaporean identity..

By: LionCitizen

LionCitizen — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:56:13 +0000

justkaypoh,

“…To state my point, think about you go and tell the American expats here “Why do you have the responsibility of perpetuating a language that is of no tangible link to you?” ask them to give up English for Singlish etc.
The expat kids in China, should give up their language for Mandarin?
Is that the logic you are proposing?…”

(1) No, that is not the logic I proposed.

(2) Actually when I used the words immigrant and American-Born Chinese, I used them in the assumption that they have become PR or Citizen of the country they emigrate to or born in, and they have no intention to return to their original country. Thus, if they are minority immigrants, we would expect that their offspring will be assimilated by the host country’s language and culture in 2 or 3 generations.

(3) On the other hand, foreign expats are usually not immigrants but foreign workers. They have no intention to give up their original citizenships. They will return to their country when they completed their oversea assignments. Hence, no assimilation will occur and their kids will not need to give up their language for other language.

By: justkaypoh

justkaypoh — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 06:07:47 +0000

angry_one,
agree with you. All the more, we should try hard to learn both languages.

By: angry_one

angry_one — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 05:55:20 +0000

Our educational system has been an EPIC FAILURE at language education. We have hordes of Sinkees who are neither proficient in English nor their mother tongue. Language instruction usually consists of rote learning and memorizing words, and this shoddy teaching method really causes locals to lose out in the global competition for talent.

By: Die-hard Singaporean

Die-hard Singaporean — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 05:38:11 +0000

I think Mochi hit the nail on the head when he said that Singaporeans (Chinese Singaporeans in particular in my view) do not have a mastery of any one language. (This is a generalisation of course, and for every generalisation there are exceptions. But, nonetheless, the generalisation holds true.)
I speak little Mandarin but I can quite adequately follow the everyday conversations of Singaporeans in Mandarin. Why? Because Singaporean Mandarin sounds much like the dialects “Mandarinised”.

When I was a kid, nearly all of us Chinese kids spoke the dialects. The dialects were well and truly our mother tongue – not Mandarin. We spoke the dialects well, even though it was colloquial.
When we refer to Singaporeans’ mother tongue these days, what language are we referring to? The predominant language of an increasing number of mothers in Singapore is English. By definition then, the mother tongue of the children of these English-speaking mothers is English, regardless of the ethnicity of the parents.

A lot of thinking here for the MOE.

By: justkaypoh

justkaypoh — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 05:19:08 +0000

Hansen, I think you got your figures wrong.
“and you go on to say the welsh do speak welsh. only 10% of welsh people know how to speak welsh these days. most speak only english. so you are crazy.”
Can we you where you got your figures?

By: justkaypoh

justkaypoh — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 05:15:17 +0000

Lioncitizen,
To state my point, think about you go and tell the American expats here “Why do you have the responsibility of perpetuating a language that is of no tangible link to you? ” ask them to give up English for Singlish etc.
The expat kids in China, should give up their language for Mandarin?
Is that the logic you are proposing?

By: LionCitizen

LionCitizen — Tue, 16 Mar 2010 23:49:44 +0000

DM and justkaypoh,

“……
DM (Mar 9, 2010 21:17)
If an American-born Chinese grew up in an English environment speaking English, would you still blame him for “disowning” his language simply because of his skin colour? Even though Mandarin bears absolutely no significance to him and the surroundings he knows as home?
justkaypoh (Mar 9, 2010 23:45)
Will find China/Singapore-born Americans grew up in China/Sg not speaking and despise English? Will fellow Americans find them wrong? I believe yes, likewise. The ABC should carry on with their own language. However, it much easier to pick up MT in Sg than in the US.
DM (Mar 10, 2010 1:12)
May I ask why should they do that? Why do they have the responsibility of perpetuating a language that is of no tangible link to them? Simply because of their race? Do you really find that burden logically justifiable or is it merely an idea that you personally find appealing?
…… I seriously doubt that German and French people living in Europe care about the fact that descendants of German and French immigrants in the US no longer speak their “mother” (or more like grandmother/great grandmother) tongue.
……”

(1) To me, Anglicization of Singaporeans in Singapore is very different from Anglicization of immigrants in any English-speaking countries. The followings are the reasons.

(2) Generally speaking, it is quite common that many countries in the world are implementing the policy of using the language and culture of their major dominant race, to govern and integrate all their citizens or multiracial citizens and immigrants.

(3) Such policy when apply to immigrants is usually called the assimilation of immigrants. The assimilation will most likely on language, but in long run, it may gradually develop and deepen to include culture, religion or others customs and values.

(4) Therefore, the offspring of any immigrant, such as Chinese, German or French, who arrive in America (as subsequent immigrants), will all be assimilated to English-speaking citizens. This is part of the natural results of immigrant assimilation policy which is acceptable by all nations (That is why the German and French people living in Europe will not care about the fact that descendants of German and French immigrants in the US no longer speak their “mother” (or grandmother/great grandmother) tongue.)

(5) However, when the same policy is applied to multiracial citizens, although it will not be called the assimilation of multiracial citizens, but in long run, it may yield the same outcomes as the assimilation of immigrants. Therefore, to protect the language and cultural rights of the minority races, bilingual or multilingual policies are also quite common in countries where the language and culture of major dominant race are used to integrate the multiracial citizens. Under such situation, the language and cultural rights of the major dominant race (notably, using their language as first language) as well as the minority races (i.e. learning their mother tongues as second language) will all be taken care of in a democratic and harmonious way.

(6) If we were to follow the international norms and applied the policy of using the language and culture of major dominant race to govern and integrate the multiracial citizens in Singapore after independence, then, with a Chinese population of around 76%, using Chinese as first language while maintaining the multiracial languages and cultures of all races should be our natural choice.

(7) However, due to the considerations of many factors we all know, Singapore did not take the normal path of allowing the use of language and culture of Chinese majority to integrate all citizens. Thus, we are an exceptional country.

(8) We do not allow or practice the policy of “ruled by the language and culture of major dominant race (or vested interest group of people)”. No race will thus be integrated or assimilated by other race (or vested interest group of people) in term of language and culture. Furthermore, under the bilingual policy, the languages and cultures of all races (including the Chinese majority) will not be replaced or assimilated by English common language and its related cultures.

(9) Hence, to put it simply, in Singapore, no major dominant race/vested interest group of people, language or religion has the rights to replace or assimilate others (eg, be it chinese-cised, anglicized or otherwise), all have to co-exist under fair conditions.

(10) Using the above point of views, we would expect and accept that the minority immigrants (says, less than 12% of the total population) living in countries where the language and culture of major dominant race are used for governing and integrating citizens, will eventually be integrated or assimilated by the host countries and use their languages or even cultures.

(11) However, it should be obvious that this type of assimilation of immigrants in others countries can not be used as example to justify the Anglicization of Singaporeans in Singapore. We do not practice the policy of “ruled by the language and culture of major dominant race (or vested interest group of people)”. We are not minority living in other country. We have accepted English as our common language under the condition that, it will remain as a neutral language co-exists with our MT languages under the spirit of bilingual policy.

(12) Thus, when the supposed “neutral-co-exist” English language begins to act as a “hostile-takeover” language to replace our MT languages, thereby causing the gradual Anglicization of Singaporeans in Singapore, we have the rights to protect our core language and cultural interests and voice our concerns.

PS: Although it is good for American-Born Chinese to carry on with their own MT language, but we should not be too concerned about the assimilation and anglicization of ABCs in America or others countries. Their assimilation model and facts will not contradict our efforts to prevent the Anglicization of Singaporeans in Singapore.

By: hansen

hansen — Sat, 13 Mar 2010 07:38:27 +0000

when i am overseas and people ask me to speak in my own language, i tell them that my language is english. i am singaporean, i grew up speaking english.

just like the australians, british, ghanians, jamaicans etc.

and i speak english with a cultivated singaporean accent. and i am proud of it. i am proud of the fact that i can speak basic mandarin as well. i am proud of hokkien noodles and wantan noodles.

i dont speak with a british accent or american accent. i am singaporean and this is the way singaporean culture is.

unlike justkaypoh, i dont feel the need to try and be someone else by speaking mandarin. i also dont speak much singlish. i speak standard english with a singaporean accent.

just like how the scots speak english with their scottish accent and how the australians speak with their australian accent.

By: hansen

hansen — Sat, 13 Mar 2010 07:18:31 +0000

justkaypoh,

english is the first language of singaporeans. your roots are in singapore not china. so you speak english. singaporean culture is a mix of east and west, embrace your own culture – english, fishball noodles, malay national anthem, all of it. singapore is not a province of china, neither are singaporeans chinese. most singaporeans have never even been to china, dont care about china and think china is very poor (gdp per capita 1/9 of singapore).

look at britain, it is 1/3 english, 2/3 scottish and welsh. going by your definition, only the english should speak english. in the uk, the welsh should speak welsh, the scots should speak scots, those in cornwall should speak cornish, others should speak gaelic. ireland should speak gaelic. but everyone speaks english there as well.

and you go on to say the welsh do speak welsh. only 10% of welsh people know how to speak welsh these days. most speak only english. so you are crazy.

same question, why is english an official language in 54 countries worldwide while chinese is official language in only 2? (singapore and china?)

singaporean chinese are different from china chinese. learn about china and you will find that we live in entirely different world. i remember asking my friend while i was in china to help me buy dental floss. and he said he has never heard of it or used it before. our “chinese food” – hokkien noodles, wantan noodles, chicken rice etc are also not found there. and seeing everything in mandarin sure gives me a bloody headache. our cultures are just entirely different.

By: mice is nice

mice is nice — Wed, 10 Mar 2010 18:27:38 +0000

hi The Just One,

hmmmm, money culture? thatz a start (so let’s get the dice rolling!). lol….

By: The Just One

The Just One — Wed, 10 Mar 2010 18:05:41 +0000

u guys are blowing this way out of proportion.

it is just a matter of preference.

i speak English almost exclusively. but that does not necessarily mean that i like the f-ing racist white men that lie their way into wars all over the f-ing world.

difference.

if you guys want to talk about culture, Singapore has none.
…other than money.

By: justkaypoh

justkaypoh — Wed, 10 Mar 2010 17:38:35 +0000

DM,

What I actually want to convey is that people from ‘stronger’ countries (or people with more pride) will tend to retain their own language.

E.g. the American born overseas will be very unlikely not to speak English or even do not like to speak. But some races from some countries will not try hard to preserve their language, say comparing to the Europeans or Americans. E.g. when they migrate their children will tend not to speak their language properly. We don’t find the children of 2nd gen Americans doing that overseas?

Get what I mean? This is a factual observation.

IMO, the culture of these people are not so deep-rooted and do not hold as much pride as say the western counterpart.

Why to ‘some’ people here treat westerners better? I could well due to inferiority complex.
To me these people are partly anglicized.

Anglicized in my own ‘definition’ means to feel/think that English(and its culture) is superior than one’s own.

If an American have a similar attitude to Chinese, then this American is ‘Chinisize’

It does NOT means that every say Chinese who can only speak English is Anglicize, I hope you get what I mean.

In short Anglicization is about the heart.

According to what I read, Germanic speaking countries are more than Romance speaking countries, in Europe.

“Western values may be present in Singapore, but I’m sure no Westerner would say that Singapore shares as his country of origin.”

I’m sure some Singaporeans thought that they share part of the Western culture. I had a friend who speaks mainly English (he’s not very anglicized) went to work in the US. When he came back for vacation, I was so surprised that he starts to speak Mandarin, he told me that he feels the need to find cultural grounding there, one reason is that the Anglos do not ‘accommodate’ him like their own even his speak their language. He found more interest in Chinese while in the US than here isn’t it ironic?

I’m NOT saying these people are wrong, they are influenced by the more western environment here. Many leave in our small island whole, travelling for short trips will not get a better picture.

Cultural roots association is important right and very advantages right? So why not make use of it? To the Singaporean Chinese, why don’t we choose either one.

If I give you either 1000 or 500 dollars, will you choose none?

By: mice is nice

mice is nice — Wed, 10 Mar 2010 08:22:48 +0000

Hansen,

btw, if you can understand me to the point you can correct my less than perfect english. then my english is not so bad, right?

i can’t say “we should have more posters like you online” because i do not represent a group of posters or TOC. there is no “we”, just me & that is my (& mine alone) opinion.

perhaps you can enlighten everyone how to smell people, educated or not? specifically, which part of the person do you smell? which school teaches students that? bear with me, b-cos i wasn’t taught this in school! rofl…

By: mice is nice

mice is nice — Wed, 10 Mar 2010 08:00:34 +0000

Hansen,

you may have missed the point of language as tool for communication. not a sport where 1 tries to 1 up another person.

btw, where is this Oxbridge in the article ["Who Elected this Clowns?" post on March 10, 2010 14:53] you were saying?

By: hansen

hansen — Wed, 10 Mar 2010 07:44:56 +0000

i was just watching this wang lee hom skype interview.

http://www.razor.tv/site/servlet/segment/main/92/38402.html

the english spoken by these people made me shudder. even as a local, i cannot help shaking my head. i have trouble understanding these people myself.

none of the fans managed to speak one simple sentence in english properly. none. zilch. zero.

pronounciation is off. intonation is off. syntax is off.

these young people are supposed to be schooled in english for almost 2 decades of their lives. and they can’t even speak a single sentence in english properly.

not RP english. not GA english. just simple, good old standard singapore english. and none of them can do it.