James Goh –
The party had already commenced the night before with throngs of the Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender (LGBT) crowd from different parts of the European Union (EU) and beyond descending upon one of the most popular gay capitals in Europe – London. It was London’s Gay Pride Parade 2010 in celebration of 40 years of gay liberation.
Amidst the air of jubilance and nervous anticipation of what the day will bring, I joined in for the first time in a gay pride parade which marched from Baker street to Trafalgar Square. The scene was a sea of rainbow flags and blaring music from incredulously colourful floats. I was extremely heartened and secretly envious that the LGBT crowd could march proudly in public with their partners and family members, both young and old, in tow.
Members of the LGBT parade contingent enthusiastically engaged fellow comrades and curious onlookers lining the parade route by giving out pro-LGBT brochures and badges. It was a casual and friendly atmosphere designed to put everyone and anyone at ease, but under the enduring truth that as “Love is a human right”, LGBTs deserve the same rights to love and be loved regardless of their sexuality.
As the crowd congregated at the parade destination of Trafalgar Square, feelings of camaraderie climaxed; the crowd grooved to the music projected from the center stage of the mega outdoor party. The party spirit was stoked by the heat of the summer sun and the abundance of love and unconditional acceptance that was in the air.
A reporter at the event asked me for my sentiments as an Asian about this annual event, and many from the local community quizzed me about the general acceptance of Singaporeans toward the LGBT community. Many of them found it incomprehensible that our globalized and cosmopolitan society still criminalized sex between mutually consenting adults and were quick to offer their sympathies that I would be returning to Singapore to live under such a legally repressive environment.
As tourists marvel at the modernity and ever changing landscape of Singapore, and as we gallop ahead in the development of our sophisticated business and research infrastructure and climate, the legal standpoint on LGBT issues (i.e. section 377A of the Singapore Penal Code) has not turned a page as Singapore chronicles chapters upon chapters in her other areas of development and progress (for example, the presence of casinos in the integrated resorts).
As London’s Gay Pride 2010 goes into yet another chapter of UK’s history, Singapore is still stuck in a limbo about her official stand towards LGBTs in our society, due to the preservation of section 377A of the penal code. Perhaps it is time for decision-makers to take direction from our very own citizens: our citizens who have demonstrated the capacity to embrace liberalism by participating in the Pinkdot campaign to support their LGBT family members and friends; our citizens who cheered on the first LGBT contingent made up of only two but extremely brave souls who marched proudly with the rainbow flag through the Chingay 2010 parade to demonstrate the true diversity that exists in our society.
I’d just like to share with you some thoughts of another fellow Singaporean who attended the London parade. Preferring to remain annonymous, he commented, “The main impression I got from the pride parade was the sense of total freedom enjoyed – freedom to celebrate who you are and what you do without fear of repercussions and reprisals. Everyone is just having a good time, without having to look over their shoulders. There were gay, straight, bi, whatever, just enjoying the festivities for the sake of it, and not having to prove a point (too much) or even think that it was a political statement. I hate how everything back home is reduced to a matter of politics and policy, including the area of who to love.”
In a society where change is a part of our culture, it is now time to cease being ironic, to legally acknowledge and accord every LGBT citizen of Singapore his equal right – the human right to love and be loved for who they truly are.
————
The author is a returning Singaporean student who completed his tertiary education in Europe. He hopes to maintain awareness about the injustice done to the local LGBT crowd associated with keeping section 377A of the Penal Code of Singapore through his short article. He hopes that section 377A of the Penal Code could be repealed as a first step for the open social acknowledgement and acceptance of the Singaporean LGBT crowd.
To : Yeah!
Aiyo , don’t repeat the same sentence everytime lah. I hav a “heterosexual” friend who married and with kids , told that he’s feel enjoyable after disocver gay fun … he like to just stay as bi.
lol
There is a difference between gays and ku niangs. The latter is something we can observe, and the former is something they have to admit.
Did the ‘gays’ in your school tell you they were gays?
lobo76
As a matter of fact, yes
I have STRAIGHT friends and CLASSMATES who turned GAY, even those who got married also can turn gay, even those who have children also undergoes great difficulties to come out. I think we should have organizations to help HETEROSEXUALto face coming out. Not just discriminate against them, instead we should help these closetted gay.
All my gay and lesbian friends……… they were all previously HETEROsexual !!!
There are so FEW gay that started off as gay and suddenly become HETEROSEXUAL.
Obviously it must be EASIER or BETTER (perhaps cheaper, faster and better) to turn from HETEROSEXUAL into GAYS, then otherwise. That accounts for why more HETEROsexuals like to turn gays. I see so few gays or lesbians who wanted to turn otherwise.
Goes to show that, it is not good to be HETEROSEXUALS too; otherwise, there should be more who wanted to turn hetero .
My invisible sky daddy (who is also bigger, better & more right than yours) said so, enuff said!
And how did I hear him you might ask? I prayed and he answered only to a selected few, undeniable eidence indeed.
Dear gemami,
TOC is not promoting the gay lifestyle. We are allowing alternative voices to air.
As for editorial decisions being influenced by gay members, just so you know, as far as I know, we do not have anyone who’s gay on the editorial team. And even if we do, our decisions are made on other grounds.
TOC has been the platform for minority/alternative voices. And as such, the “gay voice” qualifies. Having said that, we welcome voices from others who may disagree with the “pro-gay” articles here.
Feel free to write and email it to us.
As for other “more important” issues to discuss, I think TOC covers these as well. We do not forsake other issues, as you can see on the website.
Andrew
@IPU
Schizophrenic also hear voices, and insisted that there are gods and angels.
@Atobe 28 July 2010
Do you know that some has successfully remain celibate all their lives, and to an old age without wasting their sperm or ova ?
Obviously you need more then a rubber band to hold yours down.
Jesus, at the last supper, had a young man that he loved, lie on his chest.
This young man followed jesus to garden of Gethsemane, (improperly dressed, covered only with linen)
On the cross, jesus specifically asked this YOUNG MAN to take care of his mother (Read the bible, it says disciple, not disciples which the church would like you to think) and entrust his mother to this one young man.
Peter raised an eyebrow against this young man. Guess what Jesus said to him ?
Read the bible carefully, the bible stressed that this young man who sleep on jesus chest no less than three times.
@ lol 29 July 2010
Frequent observations:
When I was in a boy’s school, I had friends who were heterosexual in my school. Now these heterosexuals are happily gay, some may have been married to women and even have kids but were unhappy. Then they discovered love and come out , and adopt happy gay lifestyle. They found love, they never had love with their wife.
This is one observation that genetic plays a part in developing one’s sexuality, no amount of social engineering such as marriage is going to prevent them to seek their true identity, their true orientation, and YES, their true love too.
Yes u can be heterosexual, you can even appeared to be married. But no, don’t keep telling everyone “it is normal to be heterosexual, ” or “don’t suppress your feelings and get married to have a family”.
No I don’t stop my kids to find their true sexual orientation, their happiness and true love, becos to me, I want them to remain happy, whether they are heterosexual or homosexual, i want them to be happy, and i love my children the same.
To : gemami
Daddy , just want to tell u my problem , why u asked me to be silent and told me :
“… take back what belongs to you and do not be led by the gays and their purpose”
See! why nowdays , younger don’t want to talk to parents and lead to the higher suicide case among the young last year.
http://sg.yfittopostblog.com/2010/07/27/number-of-suicides-in-singapore-increased/
@ More Hetero turn gay
My point is, homosexuality may be as a result of environmental influence, not solely as genetic as some claimed. I mentioned this people told me they were gay when I was in a boy’s school. Now I ask them why are they not gay, they said they found more love with a woman than a guy. Is my point about environmental factors not valid?
And if, and only if my child was gay by some fate, I will still accept them. But they should discover their own sexuality, not some campaigning to tell tell them homosexuality is normal and selling the alternate lifestyle.
lol,
I don’t understand. You allow your children to discover their own sexuality, and yet allow the perception that some sexuality is more equal than others to persist. Sorry if I offend, but it does sound very much like hypocrisy.
The other thing I don’t understand is why the cause of homosexuality is so important (nature vs nuture). In the end, they are what they are now, and the cause determines whether it is right or wrong? If there is right or wrong, it should be evaluated on its own.
If I were a murderer, I am a murdered. I planned and killed someone. Does it matter that I was made by the environment or is naturally so? Either way, I present a threat to society and should be deal with as such.
If someone was a homo, why is it impt to determine why they are so? Are they or are they not a threat to society/harmful to others? Personally, that is all that matters to me.
@LOL
I dont think anyone can claim (at this day) that homosexuality or heterosexuality is genetic or environmental. All are still under investigation.
And if, and only if my child was heterosexual by some fate, I will still accept them. But they should discover their own sexuality, not some campaigning to tell tell them heterosexuality is normal and selling the self-proclaimed moral or holier-than-thou lifestyle.
To amendable, why is it there in the first place? If it is not there then there is no need to amend, my dear idiotic cum laugable-amendable!
In this world there will definately be a group of people whom enjoy to oppose for the sake of opposing at the expense of others! These are to flex their muscles and show their important social status in the society. Especially, those reglious leaders to impress upon their followers and leaving a lasting impact on society!
So, who had created this predicament/dilemma?
First and foremost, the formal “formiable mighty” QUEEN of ENGLAND whom was a master of NO trade but pretended to be a skillful legal expert under the protection of the former idiotic “KING”!
Last but not least, former equally idiotic and ignorant English men and women whom had supported the “KING and QUEEN”!
SO, laugh at your own former idiotic KING and QUEEN first b/f laughing at Singaporeans! This is due to the queen whom can not imagin how a woman with another woman to engage in homo-sex so, it must be the men and push it to the men to criminalize them!
Just to conclude, an idiot is laghing at a genius!
Well done TOC.
You are a voice for the minority and the silent majority who have suffered under the authoritarian rule of the PAP.
A true democracy must allow all sides to tell their story without any harassment.
I would like to suggest that TOC campaign vigorously (as you’ve done for Yong Vui Kong) to the PAP government to allow an independent (non-SPH neither linked to GLC, PAP, etc.) newspaper to be set up in Singapore.
By the way, idiotic amendable, you may perceive that English law is the most advance, superior and modern legal system in the world and ASIAN countries are conservative and backward, am I right to say so.
I bed to differ, at least there are no law in Asia prohabiting a man having sex with another man as a crime as liken to the idiotic law of stupid English law practiced by most commonwealth countries! (Woman having sex with another woman is not a crime!)
In retrospect, indeed, the English should carry out profound introspections to reflect their ingorance of criminal law as claimed to be the pioneer and original of criminal law!
Only a word to describe–shameful/shameless, really a shameful and shameless English nerd!
British is great , British is best on the world history . Why singaporean enjoy modern life ? Why Singaporean learn English ? Why we use english to write comment here !!!
TO : gemami
govt also discuss “homosexual” topic wat!
http://app.reach.gov.sg/reach/YourSay/YourDiscussionCorner/tabid/117/ptid/414/threadid/3381/forumtype/posts/Default.aspx
gemami… i suspect u are fond of farewells … u have made them before, in the same context, and for the same purpose of implicitly threatening anyone who dares to question mainstream religion-driven values
in our little alice-less wonderland, reason and rationality are not always apparent or appreciated… with our censorship and the sprawling tentacles of our 3rd world versions of religion, TOC deserves admiration for being one of the few forums where our hidebound attitudes can be questioned and challenged.
reading some of these posts, i start to wonder what century this is … how come there are so many people with so many whacky and/or childish views of sex and sexuality?
To : RedDotWong
1)what is u view about “Homosexual” ?
2)what u can share on u non-childish sex and sexuality view ?
For those readers who wants to know how a person can contract HIV, this is a real sad true fact article. Go and google it and read the article.
Google this article :
High HIV incidence for Thai men who have sex with men; many acquiring HIV in their early twenties
Note : So it is scientific proven that LGBT falls into this category also.
bye gemami, you will DEFINITELY NOT be missed.
lee mun wai
It’s truly AMAZING & so “Christian” for these X-tian homophobes to always spend so much resources in condemning and fighting against the lives of LGBT than doing more charitable works for the less fortunate.
Homophobes and fundies will never want to accept logic nor reason that if they themselves were persecuted by vicious people out there to undermine their own freedom to be who God created, will they not fight for that basic right too? Unfortunately, they do not care. The underlying motivation for all their discrimination is, CONTROL and deluded self – Superiority. By trying to “save” LGBT, they feel more holy, more X-tian, more closer to entering hell-ven, without needing to pay ERP-Eternity Require Punishment (for others not themselves). Zzz.
Pui! Amen.
Whatever the pro-homosexuals say, their choice bring grief and suffering on themselves and on their parents and family.
Cannot imagine any mother jumping up and shouting ‘hooray’ when her beloved boy is homosexual.
Anyway, the improved Sex Education in schools is not going to let the wolves in again.
Whatever the anti-homosexuals say, their choice bring grief and suffering on themselves and on their parents and family.
Cannot imagine any mother jumping up and shouting ‘hooray’ when her beloved boy is mini-Hitler.
Anyway, the mockery of the Sex Education in schools is going to let the x-tian fundie wolves in again.
To : Yeah
Such agenda no good for our kids future.
06 May 2010
MOE and sex ed: let the culture war begin!
Last week, Singapore’s Ministry of Education released its new approved sex education vendors list after a revamp and audit of external vendors and their programmes. Word has it that liberals and secularists in Singapore are concerned with the new list – 5 out of 6 of the vendors are linked to Christian organisations
http://akikonomu.blogspot.com/2010/05/moe-and-sex-ed-let-culture-war-begin.html#links
The Kinsey scale attempts to describe a person’s sexual history or episodes of their sexual activity at a given time
Rating:Description
0 Exclusively heterosexual
1 Predominantly heterosexual, only incidentally homosexual
2 Predominantly heterosexual, but more than incidentally homosexual
3 Equally heterosexual and homosexual (bisexual)
4 Predominantly homosexual, but more than incidentally heterosexual
5 Predominantly homosexual, only incidentally heterosexual
6 Exclusively homosexual
X Asexual
Kinsey himself avoided and disapproved of using terms like homosexual or heterosexual to describe individuals, asserting that sexuality is prone to change over time, and that sexual behavior can be understood both as physical contact as well as purely psychological phenomena (desire, sexual attraction, fantasy)
wah, so many pro-homosexual clones.
Whatever you say, you surely realize the grief and pain you brought to your parents when they know you are homosexual. Look for help please. Really, I am not here to pour salt into your wound. Please look for help.
In fact , we are help you to alert your disorder encounter.
Homophobia manifests in different forms, and a number of different types have been postulated, among which are internalized homophobia, social homophobia, emotional homophobia, rationalized homophobia, and others.There were also ideas to classify homophobia, racism, and sexism as an intolerant personality disorder.
In the June 2008 of the magazine Scientific American Mind, scientist Emily V. Driscoll stated that homosexual and bisexual behavior is quite common in several species, and that it fosters bonding and peacefulness among animals: “The more homosexuality, the more peaceful the species”. The article also stated that “Unlike most humans, however, individual animals generally cannot be classified as gay or straight: an animal that engages in a same-sex flirtation or partnership does not necessarily shun heterosexual encounters. Rather many species seem to have ingrained homosexual tendencies that are a regular part of their society. That is, there are probably no strictly gay critters, just bisexual ones. Animals don’t do sexual identity. They just do sex
to: yeah
i’m not sure what u expect homosexuals to do to insulate their parents from the grief, pain, and shame that anti-homo people like you impose on them … u want gays to pretend that they are not gay just so it looks better?
maybe it’s the parents (and you) who should seek help and enlightenment to free themselves (and yourself) from their (and your) prejudices and ignorance… it seems a way lot easier to change what you’ve been taught to believe rather than what nature designed you to be
To red dot wong, don’t blame your parents for being upset with you for being homosexual. They love you. That is why they feel so sad for you. You must change, seek help ok?
Why must homosexuals insist that homosexuals must stay as homosexuals. So sad.
to yeah:
fortunately i have educated parents who wouldn’t have nervous breakdowns if i was gay… they are the ones who taught me my values and how to be a good human being
btw, i’m straight and married… it reflects your smallness and lack of imagination to assume that anyone who doesn’t want to burn homos at the stake is gay
i suggest you educate yourself about human sexuality in general and homosexuality in particular.
being trapped in a closed mind makes the world a very, very small place.
perhaps you can start with googling what the American Medical Association, American Psychological Association, American Psychiatric Association, Canadian Psychological Association, Royal College of Psychiatrists, etc say about your uninformed insistence that homosexuals can magically become heterosexuals … yet i somehow suspect that the even the enormous weight of the world’s medical and scientific consensus will be unable to shake your conviction that you and others of your irrational ilk are right
To : Yeah
I am homosexuals , i have the “RIGHT” no to change ! You also have the “RIGHT” to be homophabia because we know you are ” unchangeable”
Human rights are “rights and freedoms to which all humans are entitled.” Proponents of the concept usually assert that everyone is endowed with certain entitlements merely by reason of being human
The Yogyakarta Principles on the Application of International Human Rights Law in relation to Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity is a set of international principles relating to sexual orientation and gender identity, intended to address documented evidence of abuse of rights of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) people, and further of intersexuality requested by Louise Arbour according to the International Human Rights Law
Yogyakarta Principles was launched as a global charter for gay rights on 26 March 2007 in Geneva. Michael O’Flaherty, spoke at the International Lesbian and Gay Association (ILGA) Conference in Lithuania on 27 October 2007; he explained that “All human rights belong to all of us. We have human rights because we exist – not because we are gay or straight and irrespective of our gender identities”, but that in many situations these human rights are not respected or realised, and that “the Yogyakarta Principles is to redress that situation
Please Gemami,i implore you not to leave us.TOC is only a conduit for the minorities to free speeches.The public at large would not be too easily swayed by pro-gay articles or opinions printed here or anywhere else.What you should be more concerned about is our government.Have you not noticed lately that the PAP is working insidiously to introduce liberal activities
in our society which you and i considered moral insanities.Remember scantily dressed women doing pole dancing is allowed now.Did you notice we have more red light districts in Singapore?Just a couple of weeks ago,the PAP allowed a first local made erotic film right here in our own turfs.We now have news about the government allowing condoms to be distributed during the YOG in Singapore.
Have you ever asked yourself why all these things are happening in a conservative society like Singapore?Would you be shocked if one day,our secular government legalizes unlawful behavior like homosexuality and allowing gay pride parades on our streets.Hey GEMAMI,it is coming soon and it will be imposed on
us not by the LGBT community but by an unsuspecting source which is the PAP.That culprit is a great desensitizer.
Hi REd dot wong,
Don’t put too much weight on those so-called ‘medical’ evidence on homosexuality. The pain families experience is what counts. You have cousins or close friends or even siblings who are homosexuals? Do you see the grief it brings to parents? I have seen that in families of my close friends and cousins. I have also seen my formerly homosexual friends who married and have children, with great joy.
Don’t deny the freedom of homosexuals who become heterosexuals and have families. As the Minister of Education puts it well, which parent does not want their children to settle down and have children of their own? I have great joy with my sons. You would too.
And red dot wong,
whoever talked about burning people at the stake? I didn’t. If you have homosexual friends, surely you see the sadness of their parents. I have. So you want to pin the label of ‘smallness and lack of imagination’ on them then? No, that’s because of love. They love their children and are sad that they are homosexual.
Why do parents want the contents of sex education in schools to be openly published? Because they love their children enough to care. Why are they angry that AWARE claims ‘copyright’ as a reason not to share their version of sex education? Because they love their children enough to care.
People from different religions and there are also people who are atheist who are sad if their family members are homosexuals. Don’t call them ‘small minded’.
To : Yeah
1)Pls do read your science chapter :
Prenatal hormones
The prenatal hormonal theory of sexual orientation suggests that people who are exposed to excess levels of sex hormones have masculinized brains and show increased homosexuality. Research on special conditions such as CAH and DES indicate that prenatal exposure to, respectively, excess testosterone and estrogens are associated with female–female sex fantasies in adults. Both effects are associated with bisexuality rather than homosexuality.
There is research evidence that the ratio of the length of the 2nd and 4th digits (index finger and ring finger) is somewhat negatively related to prenatal testosterone and positively to estrogen. Studies measuring the fingers found a statistically significant skew in the 2D:4D ratio (long ring finger) towards homosexuality with an even lower ratio in bisexuals. It is suggested that exposure to high prenatal testosterone and low prenatal estrogen concentrations is one cause of homosexuality whereas exposure to very high testosterone levels may be associated with bisexuality. Because testosterone in general is important for sexual differentiation, this view offers an alternative to the suggestion that male homosexuality is genetic.
The prenatal hormonal theory suggests that a homosexual orientation results from exposure to excessive testosterone causing an over-masculinized brain. This is contradictory to another hypothesis that homosexual preferences may be due to a feminized brain in males. However, it has also been suggested that homosexuality may be due to high prenatal levels of unbound testosterone that results from a lack of receptors at particular brain sites. Therefore the brain could be feminized while other features, such as the 2D:4D ratio could be over-masculinized.
Brain structure
LaVey’s (1991) examination at autopsy of 18 homosexual men, 1 bisexual man, 16 presumably heterosexual men and 6 presumably heterosexual women found that the INAH 3 nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus of homosexual men was smaller than that of heterosexual men and closer in size of heterosexual women
2)Feel sad if your son is “born in the way”. because you will be the sad father soon.
3) which chapther and session of your moral pages builded your parenthood?
To Yeah,
Parents certainly do suffer because of the homosexuality of their children… but such suffering is unnecessary and hollow… like wolves selfishly howling at the moon for disturbing the darkness of the night… parents who are knowledgeable, wise, and truly caring do not torment their kids for being gay… these wise parents know that life will be difficult enough because of our society’s backwardness and try their best to make the family an oasis of love and acceptance for all their children.
It is a grave weakness of conservative societies such as ours that irrational prejudices are passed on from one generation to another… and in the case of homosexuality, the ignorance verges on ridiculous and simple-minded … the very notion that homosexuals can be turned straight by the nagging of their parents or teachers or anybody is a sort of mindless cruelty … they can perhaps be persuaded to live sterile, passionless lives by pretending to be straight… but i wonder how worthwhile such a life can ever be… would u sacrifice all possibility of love and passion just to please your parents? even worse, would u expect it expect it of your children?
in singapore, it is sometimes apparent that parents need sex education far more than the children … certainly our society will be happier and healthier when it is more open and tolerant … we have lived far too long as an uptight, hypocritical, ungracious, stressed-out people who don’t quite yet grasp that life is about happiness, not mindless duty and smug conformity.
To : ignorant & arrogant
The pink triangle as used as a Nazi concentration camp badge to denote sexual offenders. It is sometimes turned ‘point up’ as a gay pride and gay rights symbolThe pink triangle (German: Rosa Winkel) was one of the Nazi concentration camp badges, used to identify sexual offenders, this also inculded homosexual men along with rapists, bestiality and paedophiles.
Under Nazi Germany every prisoner had to wear a concentration camp badge on their jacket, the colour of which categorized them into groups. Individuals who were sexual offenders (inculding homosexual men) had to wear the Pink Triangle. Other colours identified Jews (two triangles superimposed as a yellow star), political prisoners, Jehovah’s Witnesses, “anti-social” prisoners, and others the Nazis deemed undesirable.
While the number of homosexuals in German concentration camps is hard to estimate, Richard Plant gives a rough estimate of the number of men convicted for homosexuality “between 1933 to 1944 at between 50,000 and 63,000.”
After the camps were liberated at the end of the Second World War, many of the pink triangle prisoners were often simply re-imprisoned by the Allied-established Federal Republic of Germany. An openly gay man named Heinz Dörmer, for instance, served 20 years total, first in a Nazi concentration camp and then in the jails of the new Republic. In fact, the Nazi amendments to Paragraph 175, which turned homosexuality from a minor offence into a felony, remained intact after the war for a further 24 years. While suits seeking monetary compensation have failed, in 2002 the German government issued an official apology to the gay community.
Today, fewer than ten of those imprisoned for homosexuality are known to be still living. In 2000, the documentary film Paragraph 175 recorded some of their testimonies.
1)Homophobia , Please stop your anti-homosexual political agenda.
TO : Andrew
i read again u statement “…..we do not have anyone who’s gay on the editorial team….” may i know what is the objective of this statement ? are u disagree to work with gay or will not hire gay as your employee ?
Dear Human Right!
My comments were in response to gemami who said:
“I understand also that there are a number of gays in TOC who may influence your decision making process.”
We do not discriminate anyone here on TOC – whatever their sexual orientation.
Andrew
Hi,
1) Thanks for your reply , but i still disagree the sentence that you had been write. (i know that it can’t be undo when it was done)
2)I prefer the answer is ” anyone can be an editor in anywhere regardless of their sex orientation ”
3)oh, i apoloy that i mis-undertood what your mean.