MM Lee Kuan Yew
In January 2011, the Straits Times Press released the book, “Hard Truths To Keep Singapore Going”. The book is an account based on interviews by several Straits Times journalists with Minister Mentor (MM) Lee Kuan Yew.
In the book, MM Lee spoke candidly about various issues facing Singapore, among which was the integration of Singapore’s Malay-Muslims into society. MM Lee’s controversial remarks about how “the other communities have easier integration” than the Malay-Muslims caused unhappiness among the Malay-Muslim community here.
MM Lee subsequently issued a statement saying that his “call [was] out of date”. He also said: “I stand corrected.”
The Prime Minister, ministers and Members of Parliament from the People’s Action Party welcomed MM Lee’s statement.
On 28 March, American journalist Charlie Rose interviewed MM Lee at the Istana and asked, among other things, MM Lee about his remarks in the book.
Below is a summary of what has transpired thus far on the matter.
———————
January 2011, Yahoo News:
“Hard Truths To Keep Singapore Going”
“Muslims socially do not cause any trouble, but they are distinct and separate.” When asked how they could integrate, he [MM Lee] said, “Be less strict on Islamic observances, and say: ‘Okay, I’ll eat with you.’”
“I think we were progressing very nicely until the surge of Islam came, and if you asked me for my observations, the other communities have easier integration — friends, inter-marriages and so on – than Muslims.”
——————–
8 March 2011, Yahoo News:
Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong later said his views on Muslims’ integration in Singapore differed from the Minister Mentor’s. “Muslims are a valued and respected community, who have done a good deal to strengthen our harmony and social cohesion,” said the Prime Minister.
Prime Minister’s Office website:
PM Lee: “My own perspective on how things are in Singapore, based on my interaction with the Malay community…is not quite the same as MM’s.”
——————–
8 March 2011, Straits Times:
“Hard Truths was a book based on 32 hours of interviews over a period of two years,’ he [MM Lee] said.
“I made this one comment on the Muslims integrating with other communities probably two or three years ago. Ministers and MPs, both Malay and non-Malay, have since told me that Singapore Malays have indeed made special efforts to integrate with the other communities, especially since 9/11, and that my call is out of date.”
“I stand corrected. I hope that this trend will continue in the future.”
——————-
8 March 2011, Straits Times
MP Halimah Yacob, who spoke on racial cohesion in Singapore in Parliament on Monday, told [Straits Times], “This will go a long way towards assuaging the feelings of the community. … MM’s earlier comments caused a lot of unhappiness because many felt it was not a description of the reality.”
She added, the statement show’s Mr Lee’s “humility”.
Chairman of the Association of Muslim Professionals Nizam Ismail also welcomed the news. He said the “retraction” was a “necessary” move.
——————-
9 March 2011, Straits Times, Channel NewsAsia:
Madam Moliah Hashim, chief executive officer of self-help group Mendaki, said MM Lee’s comments ‘restore the confidence of our community and others that Malay-Muslims have indeed done much to integrate’.
Said Senior Minister of State for Foreign Affairs Zainul Abidin Rasheed: ‘Religion and race have always been delicate issues and require sensitive handling.
‘I am happy to see MM’s statement. It gives a kind of closure to the controversy, which had made many Muslims unhappy, in fact even hurt.’
Added Hong Kah GRC MP and Young PAP vice-chairman Zaqy Mohamad: ‘There will always be detractors, but for many in the community who want closure, they should be reassured by his comments.’
———————
14 March 2011, Straits Times:
Yaacob Ibrahim, Minister in charge of Muslim Affairs:
“MM (Lee Kuan Yew) has said he stands corrected, which shows a lot about his ability to learn from what he may have misunderstood. At the end of the day, he realises his observations were not quite accurate. I think we should move on from there.”
—————
Interview with Charlie Rose, 28 March 2011:
At 31:57 mins of the video:
MM Lee: “I said in that book (“Hard Truths”) that I think that the Malays, that Muslims should be relaxed and eat together with the others.”
Charlie Rose: “And it created a firestorm and your son said, the Prime Minister, differed with you.”
MM Lee: “That’s right.”
Charlie Rose: “So, were you right or was your son right?”
MM Lee: *laughs*
MM Lee: “He has to be right because he is the Prime Minister.”
Charlie Rose: “But … but?”
MM Lee: “But you ask the average person in the street whether what I’ve said is true.”
Charlie Rose: “And they would say?”
MM Lee: “You ask them.”
————————–
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Dear ag s,
Let me ask you one question. How do you know the interpretation of the Quran without the Prophet’s guidance i.e. Seerah, Hadith etc ? Or are you interpreting the Quran according to your own whim and fancy ?
Whatever the case may be – to you be your religion and to me mine.
Regards
Dr Syed Alwi
Dear alitheia,
The basis for Muslim and Non-Muslim interaction is precisely – to you be your beliefs and to me mine – which is a Quranic verse.
In the Singapore context – only Unity In Diversity can live up to that Quranic expectation.
Therefore I put it to you that Singapore should adopt Unity In Diversity as a State ideology instead of Singaporean Singapore or Malaysian Malaysia.
Best Regards
Dr Syed Alwi
My Dear Doctor,
Do I need the Prophet’s guidance to READ?
55:1 The Gracious:
55:2 Teacher of the Quran.
55:3 He created the human being
55:4 Taught him how to distinguish.
I guess not?
Dear Dr.
May I suggest that you read more of your Quran and have a better understanding of the true message….
Best Regards
ag s
To Dr Syed:
“to you be your beliefs and to me mine”
You posit that this is “Unity in Diversity”. Is it really?
What I see is “diversity” not unity. I see separation, not cohesion.
But if you’ve already decided on your personal position and have entrenched it – then that’s that, isn’t it?
And if you hold that position, then you yourself should not encroach and impose on others.
You dismiss a Singaporean Singapore; but are you averse to a Singapore state subject to the will of your God?
I quote what you had written earlier:
“In Islam – the state must submit to the will of God.”
Needless to say, it has to be your God and His will. What does that mean to non-Muslims here? What unity is there in this diversity? How does it all square?
Do your views give me the reassurance that you will even abide by your own rules?
I say this to you alone because it’s unfair to presume all other Muslims think like you.
Dear ag s & alitheia,
Firstly ag s, it is quite obvious that you are just following your own whim and fancy when interpreting the Quran. Thats your business BUT you certainly cannot ask the Muslim community to follow you in your whimsical ways.
Secondly to alitheia – the problem with people like you is that you want to dictate to us Muslims how to practice our religion. Thats why LKY is in hot soup right now. As a Non-Muslim you must learn to respect the beliefs and practices of Muslims. After all we Muslims too respect the beliefs and practices of the Non-Muslims.
On this matter – I will certainly NOT compromise. To you be your religion and to me mine. That we cannot compromise.
Best Regards
Dr Syed Alwi
To Dr Syed,
Am I really the one doing the dictating?
To you I will concede: “to you be your religion…”
If you choose to separate and insulate yourself, then that’s that.
But remember, you yourself must not encroach, nor impose on others.
This is a multi-racial, multi-religious, multi-cultural, multi-lingual society. And whether you agree or disagree, this little island has to have shared ideals and goals if we are to make it work.
These shared ideals and goals will necessitate accommodation from all sectors of the citizenry.
And finally, may I urge you to see that it has NOT been only one group that has been respectful and making all the concessions.
Syed Alwi, by repeatedly emphasising your “separeteness” you are defeating your own argument and proving the old man right.
“Unity in diversity” is nothing new. Another name for it is “egalitariansism” which Singapore practices and which LKY tried to achieve in Malaysia.
If you choose to believe in your own separateness, please do so but spare the rest of us, including other Muslim Singaporeans because I don’t believe you are advancing their cause.
I suggest closing this discussion here. I suggest the others do not engage Syed Alwi any further because this discussion is not progressing.
The important thing to remember is, we all know LKY’s views on this matter are not correct. His views were shaped over 50 years ago by events and circumstances which have changed completely. The new reality in Singapore is completely different and, thankfully, there is peace and harmony between the races and religious groups here. Long may this continue.
Dear alitheia & Peter Sellers,
I really don’t care what you think – provided – you do NOT try to tell us Muslims how to practice Islam.
It is very clear from the debate here – that some of you DO want the Muslim community to follow YOUR ideas of Islam.
Your so-called egalitarianness of LKY is just another BS. Malaysian Malaysia can NEVER happen because it IS Islam that stands in the way of a homogeneous society. Malaysia is a Muslim country and the PM of Malaysia has to be a Muslim – something which LKY cannot accept.
But if there are attempts to dilute Islam – then I guess the Muslim community will respond.
Of course you don’t like me. Why ? Because you know very well that you cannot fool me into compromising Islam. You like those whom you can manipulate into compromising Islam. But thats just NOT me.
Best Regards
Dr Syed Alwi
To Mr Sellers,
I agree that we may be arguing in circles with the good doctor. He has decided on his position. So, really, case closed on that.
However, I am not as sanguine as you are about what you have termed “the new reality in Singapore”.
Of course, I am glad that we do not have a replay of the racial or religious problems we had back in the 60s.
That said, we cannot take peace and harmony as a given. They are fragile things that must constantly be protected, nurtured, and further protected.
Race, religion, culture, language – these are powerful and extremely resilient forces. Their centrifugal pressures will remain – long after you and I are dead and gone.
Unattended, these centrifugal forces will only separate us and break us apart. That is their natural tendency.
That is why we need to have a strong centre – a set of shared ideals, values, goals as a balance; and to hold us together. And such a centre is all the more important if we desire Singapore to become more democratic and respectful of human rights.
If we fail to see this, and we fail to work towards shared ideals, values and goals, and we allow the divisions and separations to grow – then we have to ask ourselves: what then can hold us together as a nation? Democracy cannot survive in such a fractured and fractious society. It would have to be an iron fist and force. That is not what we want.
Dear alitheia,
We do NOT share the same values precisely because of religion.
When will you learn that it is the nature of Islam that keeps us apart ?
Sorry – but as a practicing Muslim – I dare say that the majority of Muslims do NOT share your values.
Muslim values is based on Islamic teachings.
Regards
Dr Syed Alwi
“It is NOT for you to decide who is Muslim and who is not Muslim.” Syed Alwi
Syed Alwi are the Ahmadiyyas (Ahmadis) Muslims?
Dear SC,
According to the majority of ulamas within the Muslim world – the Ahmadiyyahs are heretics because they believe that Muhammad is not the last Prophet.
So my answer to you is that the Ahmadiyyahs subscribe to a belief which the rest of the Muslim world rejects based on Quran and Hadith – thus making them NON-MUSLIM.
But our good friend, ag s, is NOT an ulama nor does he have the support of the majority of ulamas to declare that I am not Muslim.
If you want to declare someone as an apostate or heretic – you need the support of the majority of ulamas. You cannot anyhow point your finger at someone and accuse him of heresy and apostasy.
You should study Islam first before you debate Islam with me.
Regards
Dr Syed Alwi
“I am an American trained, qualified scientist. The first thing you need to know about Science is its limitations.” Syed Alwi.
So science is limited compared to religions?
It was reported in a hadith that drinking camels urine is good for you. http://sacred-texts.com/isl/bukhari/bh1/bh1_234.htm
Wow! this must be revelation indeed, camel urine a super medicine!
I am sure no modern scientific or medical text books will prescibe drinking camel’s urine for your illness.
What’s your opinion on this Dr. Syed?
Dear SC,
When you are dying of thirst in the desert – you may want to drink camels urine.
What makes you think that it cannot be true ? What if tomorrow modern research shows that its true ?
Why are you so sure that camels urine is not a cure for some disease ? What if it turns out – in future research – that it is indeed a cure for some diseases ?
It seems to me that you harbour a hatred for religion. But thats your business. Just don’t go around telling Muslims to disobey Islamic teachings.
Regards
Dr Syed Alwi
Dear Doctor,
What if I say that your “ulama” themselves are Musrik and I can proof to you from the Quran.What then?
The fact that there is an influx of more than a million foreigners into Singapore in the last 5 years takes its toll most strongly on the Malay Muslim community. I will tell you how.
The bulk of the lower grade jobs in Singapore are still are held by members of the Malay Muslim community. Thus, cleaning, dispatching, serving at foodstalls, dishwashing are some of the occupations held by the lower grade workers and most affected by cheap foreign labour. Foreign labour are able to come cheap because they tend to live together in large numbers in dormitories and dozens eat from the same pot, saving accommodation and food costs. Like dalcha (curry) with a little meat thrown in, the staple food of Bangladeshi workers. They do not have PUB bills, house rent, childrens’ pocket money etc to foot. The exchange rate is much in their favor. So they can afford to be cheaper and in most cases more obedient than the average Singaporean in these occupations and thus more presentable and more sought after. What happens when they are allowed into Singapore in large numbers? Naturally they displace the Singaporean workers and most frequently Malay Muslim workers. So the wages of these Singaporean workers become lower and worse many become unemployed due to the overwhelming competition. As most workers in these categories are Malay Muslims, this community is hit hard at this level of occupation. Another horde swarming the Singapore scene are young Chinese girls, the favorite workers for hawker centres, supplanting local workers who in this category are middle aged women of the Chinese or Malay races. So the mass importation of workers, far from creating jobs for Singaporeans, actually make the lives of Singaporeans so much more difficult. It is not my purpose here and now to describe how the local professionals in Singapore are elbowed out by foreign ‘talent.’ That will be another sorry tale, not only for the Malay Muslim community but for the whole Nation and in several aspects of their lives.
We will continue with the main thread of our narrative.If a young man at the prime of his life, newly married, cannot find a simple job (even the lowest legal job in the Land) to fulfill his human needs, then he is really hard hit. He flies into a rage very easily. Unfortunately housed in cramped conditions, he is squeezed in all directions and so even when a child or infant irritates him slightly he is liable to lash out. Although he is jobless and hungry he still has deadly strength and when he punches and kicks the child, the consequences are serious and in the cases that come to light, fatal. In the last five years we had five such fatalities of children killed by their own fathers or their mothers’ live-in boyfriends.
So the Ruling Party’s strategy of permitting business enterprises to bring in any number of workers into Singapore has got fatal consequences for all, also Singapore’s lower paid workers.Most tragically does the Malay Muslim young man pay for this. He pays for this with the loss of his family life, the infant’s life and as things would turn out his own life.
The Minister for Muslim Affairs had only to say that he felt malu about young Malay Muslim men killing infants within their reach. It is just like he was not present when these policies were debated and passed in Parliament. Even if there were no debates and no studies about the plight of the Malay Muslim low grade worker is made for his perusal, he should know about it by observing his community. Knowing about it would compel him to act. But when you receive such a heavenly salary in the order of millions of dollars per annum, you have to treasure the largesse and to keep it going as long as possible. So you see no evil and talk no evil. In the same trend, the people that matter in MUIS have no interest about doing their best for the lot of those whom they are charged to serve. Whatever is put before them by the Government they rubberstamp.In fact, it has come to light that Malay Muslim jurists in MUIS go out of their way to produce judgment which promotes the cause of the Kafirs. They do this by writing judgments so nonsensical that one does not know whether to laugh or cry when confronted with such trash. I hope that there is a complete archive of the written judgments these Muslim jurists have dispensed over the years for an investigation to be made when the need arises and when it is possible to do so.
At the present time, these jurists are beyond the reach of rationality.
The cause of this extraordinary behaviour of people holding the highest social responsibility can be traced to the steady buttress of a one party rule. It is deleterious in many ways. Because there is so much confidence in the monopoly of power inside Parliament and in other departments of the community, no one cares whether decisions are good or bad. Because there are no mechanisms for overlooking the process of Shari’ah implementation, no justice can be had. (The common Muslim citizen in Singapore can’t find the money to hire lawyers to get justice when he is failed by the Shari’ah system). Because there is no opposing point of view to pronounce on the true and good as against the fraudulent and bad, Muslim jurists, worked out in their own minds, that the best course for themselves is to settle only for the expedient and the risk free decisions.
You may also sit down and discover for yourself more consequences of this monolithic control of civic life, Muslim life, in Singapore. If you find it intolerable, or against your conscience, then you must do something different in the coming elections.
Allah promises in Al Qur’an that He will not change the condition of a people until they do it for it themselves.
Dear ag s,
You cannot interpret the Quran according to your whim and fancy ! There are rules and methods. I suggest that you study Islam in detail at the Muslim Converts Association.
Regards
Dr Syed Alwi
Dear Dr. Syed Alwi,
Funny, I asked you a question first, and you refused to answer my question, but you want me to answer your question first. Why be evasive?
OK, I’ll give you my answer to your question: “NO”. Now I like to know your answer to my question.
Thank you.
Dr Syed
Who is interpreting the Quran!You can check it from 25 translation of the Quran.Let me guess you did not bother to even check the verses I posted from the Quran.And you call yourself a Muslim.Shame on you Dr.
Assalamualaikum
I used to believe that Islam was a peaceful religion.
After 9/11, I have come round to the view that Islam is not a religion but an intolerant political ideology, much like Nazism.
In fact, in my view, Islam should be banned not only in Singapore but worldwide as well.
Sources: http://www.faithfreedom.org
Mod,
Kindly delete salimsg’s post.
Thank you.
Syed does not know the scriptures of his religion.
The drinking of camels urine has nothing to with being thirsty.
It has to do with the ancient myth that camels urine is a cure for certain ailments. This myth is propagated in the hadith as “…drink their milk and urine (as a medicine) 1:234″.
Huge sums of (Arab) money has gone into reserching drinking camels urine and to no avail.
So much for Syed’s claim of being a scientist and someone who knows the hadiths.
If Syed truly knows the Quran he won’t be saying, “I suggest that you study Islam in detail at the Muslim Converts Association.”
He will be quoting verses from the Quran.
I smell hypocrisy when he said,
“It is NOT for you to decide who is Muslim and who is not Muslim.”
But then goes on to declare the Ahmadis as non-Muslims.
Looks like ‘ag s’ and ‘californian’ can teach a thing or two to Syed Alwi about the Quran. That will indeed be a great revelation.
hi all,
obviously, LKY is gonna win this thing if he see’s all these posts.
no one is at war,but why shuld we be talking bad about each other’s opinions?
as a Muslim myself, i assertively say that our religion can compromise,but to a certain extent n with reasonable reasons.
but thing which is haram,we have to obey.
same as christians,hindu, n etc.
its simple as that.
why fight over intepretations of the book or so..
let’s not have a deep online arguement..
nobody’s right or wrong.
to those who do not really understand, “your religion is you’r,my religion is mine”, it just simply mean, do whatever u want in uy religion,me as a muslim or hindu or buddhist have no right to stop your practise. vice versa, it’s not that we are separating ourselves from ur religion or the society.
its totally absurd to these thoughts..
we malays/indians/chinese muslims are equally happy to mix ard with everyone..
we are one people..
sometimes, words do really get in the way…
this is a rather S’porean trait, S’poreans are sensitive to picking up & at certain words & “attack” it with such vigour. with each additional exchange, more words are added to the fodder. & it all goes downhill from there.
i guess MM truly is a master manipulator, coupled with a keen sense of timing (General Elections), he must know that there is a sizeable % of Malay-Muslim in S’pore who are (not just feel) marginalised for all these decades, as dopplerganger pointed out. all he had to do to raise a forest fire is to create a tiny spark.
Quot: “Assalamualaikum
I used to believe that Islam was a peaceful religion.
After 9/11, I have come round to the view that Islam is not a religion but an intolerant political ideology, much like Nazism.
In fact, in my view, Islam should be banned not only in Singapore but worldwide as well.
Sources: http://www.faithfreedom.org”
Dude .. I agree with your comment. I already commented few days ago .. This Dr Syed Alwi (i am not sure what Dr. is he :)) acting like Nazi.
@Nationalist,
Islam has always been a peaceful Order of Life and what FF is spreading is a total fabrication and your comment is really uncalled for.
To dopplerganger:
The huge influx of foreigners has certainly created problems. I sympathize with members of your community whose employment and economic opportunities have been affected. But do note that Singaporeans from all ethnic backgrounds have similarly suffered too.
=====
To peacetoall…
I think I can comprehend “to you your religion…” line. But with due respect, you gloss over the logical consequences in reality. Did you not read what the Dr. wrote?
I quote: “When will you learn that it is the nature of Islam that keeps us apart?”
Perhaps you should reason with him.
Finally, proclaiming “We are one people” is a good thing. I welcome it. The challenge though, is to live it.
Hi ag s ..
I am not say all Muslim. I have so many Muslim friends. My boss is Muslim and he is kind and educated person.
I will be wrong if I said all Muslim are Nazi.
I never forget I have so many dear Maly Muslim friends here. We have no issue discussing some topic.
What my concern is radial Muslim from Middle east..
We should not use these pages to fight among ourselves.We are here not discussing the Qur’an, the sunnah and our religion of Islam. We are here discussing about how we have been screwed and will continue to be screwed by the powers that be.
How can we get out of the vicious cycle?
LKY will be laughing at us as we nitpick each other.
Dear californian, Nationalist, altheia, Peter Sellers, ag s, etc etc etc,
1) If californian can give the assurance that he will NOT follow the Christian or Jewish Messiah when he appears – well – I will reciprocate and will NOT follow any kind of Muslim Messiah. Tit-for-tat. If he says yes – then I will say yes. If he says no – then I will say no. Tit-for-tat.
2) The problem with Nationalist, SC, Peter Sellers, altheia etc is that these people CANNOT accept the fact that we Muslims have our very own code of conduct.
Look – Muslims cannot do Haram things like drinking alcohol, free mixing between the sexes and so on. Muslims must pray 5 times a day, go on Hajj, fast in Ramadhan etc etc. Muslims must marry Muslims etc etc. And such rules and practices DO keep us apart somewhat.
We Muslims do NOT impose our beliefs and practices on the Non-Muslims – BUT – it seems from this debate here, the Non-Muslims are telling us Muslims that they want us to be like them. But we cannot be like them !
Islam is NOT just a belief system – Islam is a comprehensive way-of-life with Syariah rules and so on.
We Muslims cannot make what is Haram become Halal and vice-versa. The Non-Muslims do NOT seem to respect the Quranic verse – To you be your religion and to me mine.
Islamic rules make any attempt at homogenisation of Singaporean society IMPOSSIBLE.
It really IS the nature of Islam which keeps us separate.
So the question arises as to how Muslims can integrate. But that question has been answered by the Quran – TO YOU BE YOUR BELIEFS/RELIGION AND TO ME, MINE.
That is the basis of Muslim – Non-Muslim interaction. You cannot ask Muslims to compromise Islamic practices and beliefs just to integrate. Why ?
Because we can choose to follow the ideology of UNITY IN DIVERSITY instead of trying to homogenise society into a SINGAPOREAN SINGAPORE.
We can share the same table but eat different food. We can participate in activities which do NOT violate Islamic teachings.
But if you want Muslims to join you in activities which clearly violate Islamic teachings – then I am sorry but I think most practicing Muslims will NOT do it.
At the end of the day – you must accept diversity and you cannot expect Muslims to follow your every wish. There are things that we can do together. But there are also things that we cannot do together.
Best Regards
Dr Syed Alwi
Dear payalebar & Muslim-Local-In-US,
Muslims account for only 15% of Singapore’s population and we live spread out. Even if every Muslim voted Opposition – we still cannot make much impact. In any case – the Opposition too has similar issues to think about.
You think the Opposition will not come under Western pressure to help in their 10-40 agenda ?
The issues I debate here – goes beyond narrow, short-term politics. What makes you think any other political party will suddenly reject the Western lobbying for a 10-40 agenda ?
It is our Muslim duty to tell the Non-Muslims that we CANNOT follow their way of life because Islam has already spelt out for us what to follow.
Sorry but its time to go to mosque for Friday prayers.
Best Regards
Dr Syed Alwi
To the Dr.
I am replying to you for the very last time – to correct something you have wrongly imputed to me.
I say again: I am not asking any Muslim to go against his religion. My pleas are:
1. for Singaporeans to find common ground and shared ideals; values and goals;
and so, towards that end;
2. to not isolate ourselves from one another unnecessarily because of an over zealous or over legalistic adherence to any teaching or creed; (as you’ve said, you can eat at the same table with those who have non-halal meals – that is good).
and so, may I urge you and your fellow Muslims:
3. to present to us, the non-Muslims, an Islam of peace; not of rejection and confrontation – for at the moment, that is how you appear – whether fair or not.
Ok, that’s it from me. I do not wish to keep repeating myself nor do I wish to get involved in proving the correctness of any religion or creed.
Again, peace to all.
Dear Dr. Syed Alwi,
Tit-for-tat? Ah, situational ethics, eh? I gave you mine…. no ifs, no buts.
Anyway, you gave an answer to a question I did not ask about. I did not ask regarding a Muslim Messiah. I didn’t ask you “If californian does not follow the Jewish or Christian Messiah when he appears, will you follow the Muslim Messiah, or if californian follows the Jewish or Christian Messiah when he appears, will you follow the Muslim Messiah?” Well, if californian doesn’t follow, maybe some other Jews/Christians (say in America) does, is your answer going to be different?
My question was simply, “When al-Mahdi appears, will you be one of those who will conduct jihad against your fellow Singaporeans?” I realized I missed out an important part. “When al-Mahdi appears, will you be one of those who will conduct jihad against your fellow Singaporeans when he calls for jihad against Singapore?” Please note a few important terms: al-Mahdi, jihad, Singaporeans, and that he calls for jihad against Singapore.
I suppose you know that the Qur’an say, “And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).” (Surah 2:42)? (er… of course, the hadiths allow some situations where Muslims are allowed to tell lies, but I don’t want to go there).
Note: I’m not questioning your right to practice Islam the way you believe it to be. I’m interested to know what a liberal-minded Muslim (I think I saw your own description in one of your letters to Dr. Mahatir… correct me if I am wrong) in Singapore thinks about al-Mahdi and following him. In fact, you have every right to do that if that is what you believe. I’m only interested in an honest answer. Thanks.
Interesting discussion about al-Mahdi.
Comparison of Muslim beliefs in End Times and Christian eschatology: http://al-mahdi.atspace.com
Dear alitheia & californian,
1) My dear alitheia – it is precisely because of Islam that we do NOT share the same values and goals ! You have to accept that because we Muslims cannot go against Islamic teachings.
I don’t think Muslims aim for a Western style, liberal democratic society because the Islamic Syariah stands in the way.
Any proposed common goal or value system – MUST – be in line with Islamic teachings if it is to be accepted by Muslims. Period.
2) My dear Californian – I don’t beat around the bush. If the Jews and the Christians can give assurance that they will not follow their Messiah – then I think Muslims too will not follow their Messiah (al-Mahdi). Thats only fair.
If on the other hand it turns out that the Christians and the Jews insist on following their Messiah – well – then I think its only fair that the Muslims too follow their own Messiah (al-Mahdi).
As I said before tir-for-tat. Simple as that. Or do you mean that its ok for the Christians and the Jews to follow their Messiah – but its NOT ok for Muslims to follow al-Mahdi ? You can – but others cannot ? Is that it ? Double standards ?
Sorry californian – your intentions towards Islam is very clear for all to see.
Tit-for-tat my dear californian !
Best Regards
Dr Syed Alwi
Dear Dr,
The Quranic teaching on AlMahdi = No such Person…..Any comment from Muslim ,if yes please post one verse from the Quran on Mahdi…..I will be glad to convert to your belief…..
Dear ag s,
Go study the Hadith. Its in Shahih Bukhari & Muslim plus others. Its a strong Hadith. But of course – you are an Inkar Sunnah – you reject the Hadith. And that puts you OUTSIDE the Ahli-Sunnah-Wal-Jamaah.
For Sunni Muslims – we accept the Hadith in addition to the Quran. And so for Sunni Muslims – the al-Mahdi is also a teaching of the Prophet.
Best regards
Dr Syed Alwi
Dear Dr,
Please forgive me I really don’t mean to rude or offensive,Just out of curiosity.
How come your learned ulemas either from Singapore/Malaysia/Indonesia can fall for such fairytale myth.I seriously cannot understand their level of understanding.If such important incident such as the return of Messiah be left out from the Holy Book?.And when I question them they just shy away and not giving me any explaination and said “this has got to do with Faith”
Again I don’t mean to be rude or offensive just curious to know your opinion…
Dear ag s,
The Quran itself directs Muslims to follow the Prophet’s teachings. The Prophet’s teachings ARE recorded in the Hadiths. There is a whole industry and methodology regarding the Hadiths.
Like I said – the Quran tells Muslims to pray. But it does NOT say how. It is in the Hadiths that the Prophet teaches us how to pray.
The problem with you – is that you reject the Hadith !
So may I suggest that you visit the Muslim Convert’s Association to find out more regarding the Hadiths !
Best Regards
Dr Syed Alwi
Dear Dr,
What do you understand from this verses,
069.044
YUSUFALI: And if the messenger were to invent any sayings in Our name,
PICKTHAL: And if he had invented false sayings concerning Us,
SHAKIR: And if he had fabricated against Us some of the sayings,
069.045
YUSUFALI: We should certainly seize him by his right hand,
PICKTHAL: We assuredly had taken him by the right hand
SHAKIR: We would certainly have seized him by the right hand,
069.046
YUSUFALI: And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart:
PICKTHAL: And then severed his life-artery,
SHAKIR: Then We would certainly have cut off his aorta.
069.047
YUSUFALI: Nor could any of you withhold him (from Our wrath).
PICKTHAL: And not one of you could have held Us off from him.
SHAKIR: And not one of you could have withheld Us from him.
Dear ag s,
Those verses are meant to assure us that the Prophet is acting according to the Will of God. In fact – those verses merely re-affirms the necessity to accept the Hadith which are the teachings of the Prophet.
Regards
Dr Syed Alwi
Dear Dr,
Can you get your ulemas to confirm and endorsed that the Hadiths are equal to the Quranic Revelation…..meaning to say that the hadiths is also ‘WAHYU’ If yes I will accept their beliefs. If no than “to you your belief, to me mine”
One more Question .Am I an apostate to Sunni Muslim?
Dear ag s,
The Hadiths are not EQUAL to the Quran. It is SECOND to the Quran. As for what the Prophet taught – yes there are Quranic verses which re-affirms that whatever the Prophet taught is sanctioned by God.
Again – why don’t you visit the Muslim Convert’s Association to find out more ?
Finally – no one here has the power of takfir to declare you an apostate. No ulama has ever issued a fatwa that you are an apostate. On that basis – you are not an apostate.
Regards
Dr Syed Alwi
Dear Dr,
I can assure you nothing at the Muslim Convert Associations can do for me that goes to MUIS…They themselves are not practicing the Real Islam.The way you pray were fabricated as you say the Quran did not teach you how to pray neither do the Quran teaches the Prophet to do it>>..As the above verse I posted ,The Prophet wouldn’t even dare to propagate what was not reveal to him…..Salam
Dear ag s,
To you be your beliefs and to me mine.
It was Jibreel a.s. that was sent by God to teach the Prophet how to pray – according to the Seerah – and the Prophet certainly taught us how to pray.
You cannot interpret the Quran without the Seerah and the Hadith.
Best Regards
Dr Syed Alwi
Dear Dr
Which is why there is no point to this discussion because you’re defending, and I wouldn’t deny that I’m defending as well.
But fact: I see your perspective and you don’t see mine.
Your beliefs and your interpretations from such materials are constantly centralized, and a limited thinking habit in a sense that you only see what you allow yourself to see. In this case, you’re bounded to not defy the teachings, and cross the lines as such you would NEVER see my perspective because you assume my stands to be perfectly wrong.
Traditional thinking habit: A cycle of perfection, such that one flaw would cease function of the entire cycle. So eliminate the cause.
A thinking habit needed to approach such subjects require more complexity and not such shallow thinking, one that allows you to build on cause and effect, that allows you to build on the entire cycle, and not simply within the cycle.
This will be my last post because unless you find a way to perceive and see what i see, there is no point in a discussion.
If you think you can continue to defend like this and hope to convince and change minds, much like many others, then prejudice, discrimination, restrictions and the lack of understanding of anyone different would continue to breed and spread.
1 cannot convince Dr Syed Alwi with words alone. he who have come to his own view of things, highly likely from his own life’s experience. it would be gravely wrong to dismiss such experience/s & the strong emotions that result.
i may not be able to feel how Dr Syed Alwi feels, but i can safely say that locals of any race or religion feels similiarly when under intense threat to self, physically or psychologically. like job security constantly being under threat? while both are vastly different examples, the trigger for strong negative response is the same.
sometimes, to win actually results in eventual lose.
anyway, i think its good news that the discussion have proven that S’poreans can resist the racial strive of old. S’poreans are capable of critical thinking, though not all, but there will be enough to prevent dis-intergration.
a positive sign indeed!
Dear Dr. Syed Alwi,
There is no double standard. I gave you a simple, straight, unequivocal answer. I already said that you have every right to follow al-Mahdi. You have every right to conduct jihad (in Allah’s cause). I never once said that you are not allowed to follow al-Mahdi. That is a strawman.
You shifted again in your latest answer. Your previous answer was “if californian can give assurance that he …”, refering to me. Now you gave the answer that “if Jews and Christians can give assurance…”
Your second answer nullifies your first answer to me: “If californian can give the assurance that he will NOT follow the Christian or Jewish Messiah when he appears * well * I will reciprocate and will NOT follow any kind of Muslim Messiah.” since your second answer just dragged in all Jews and Christians into your second answer but not in your first answer. In other words, whether your will follow al-Mahdi or not will does not depend on californian (i.e., me) giving you any assurance. So, why do you obfuscate by asking me a non-consequential question?
BTW, the Singaporean Buddhists, Hindus and atheists won’t be following any Jewish / Christian Messiah any time either.
So, my question remains:
“When al-Mahdi appears, will you be one of those who will conduct jihad against your fellow Singaporeans (comprising of Buddhists, Christians, Hindus, atheists, etc) when he calls for jihad against Singapore?”
Syed Alwi has deliberately hijacked this thread and neglected the plight of the Malay-Muslim community as described by a very concerned dopplerganger,
“an influx of more than a million foreigners into Singapore in the last 5 years takes its toll most strongly on the Malay Muslim community”
“Even if there were no debates and no studies about the plight of the Malay Muslim low grade worker is made for his perusal, he [Minister of Muslim Affairs] should know about it by observing his community. Knowing about it would compel him to act… In the same trend, the people that matter in MUIS have no interest about doing their best for the lot of those whom they are charged to serve.”
Syed Alwi is more interested in imposing his Arab-Muslim ideologies on the Malay-Muslim community in Singapore, appealing to MUI to call upon a foreign body (Al-Azhar) to Arabize the Malay-Muslims.
Further, he cast doubts on the integrity of the Opposition in helping the poor, “You think the Opposition will not come under Western pressure to help in their 10-40 agenda” ?
Instead of addressing the concerns of the Malay-Muslim community, Syed tells them to become more religious, i.e. irrational.