~by: Ravi Philemon~
We conducted an email interview with a Ms Yau who wrote in telling us that as a result of cancelling an application for a DBSS flat, she ended up paying 70 per cent ($44,223.01) of the forfeiture.
She had initially tried to have the name of the co-owner changed to that of her mother from that of her husband (they were planning to divorce and her husband had agreed to the change) but was told by HDB that this change could not be done until after they were divorced. The divorce would only have been completed after the keys had been handed over.
To the trauma of a failed marriage, she has to suffer a disproportionate financial loss.
As the developer would have no problem selling the flat, this would one case where any “forfeiture” would be most unfair. Some compassion please.
–
TOC: When did you and your ex-husband apply for the flat? We assume you applied jointly, and that both of you would have been co-owners? And can you give us details of the flat you applied for e.g. how many rooms, cost and location?
Yau: March 2008. 3-rm. $372k. Boon Keng (City View at Boon Keng)
TOC: We understand he has a flat, do you have one?
Yau: No.
TOC: Where are you now staying?
Yau: With Mum and brother in a 3-rm flat near MacPherson MRT.
TOC: When did you decide to separate, and then divorce?
Yau: Last year Nov. Divorce procedure started in May this year.
TOC: Are you now divorced? What is your share of the joint assets?
Yau: Yes. I take nothing from him.
TOC: What are your educational qualifications and yr job?
Yau: ‘O’ level. I work in a Bank.
TOC: When did you decide to change the other name to that of your mother?
Yau: July last year.
TOC: Did your then husband object? Was he a co-owner?
Yau: Yes. He agreed because he knew that he wasn’t eligible to retain the house neither as a single owner nor as joint owner with his parents as his parents’ house was a new house when they bought. He agreed also because he doesn’t want to pay penalty.
TOC: You have written saying that for months your emails on change of ownership went unanswered. When did you send your first email? And when did they finally reply? In between did you make telephone calls, or visit the HDB office? Do you still have copies of emails you sent?
Yau: What I meant is every time we exchange emails, she’ll take ages to reply if not I have to resend my quiries. First email in May last year. I started off as asking what are the penalty charge if cancel. Ms L , who is in charge of my case, she’s more like when I asked 1 question and she answered 1 sentence, I mean as a Customer Service Manager, I would expect more elaboration on what are the consequences I would faced, give more information, etc. without asking since she already know I have the intention to cancel or change ownership names.
So our emails come and go till Oct last year and I still haven’t got idea that I had to divorced first before I can appeal for the change of ownership. I ever went to HDB during that time, wanting to talk to her face to face but on the way, on the phone she said I am not able to see her, so I didn’t get to talk to her then. I still keep some of the emails I sent.
TOC: What were the choices you had, if you had not cancelled?
Yau: Retain the house as a married couple for at least 5 years. (or) Transfer ownership name from my ex-husband to my mum. (subject to HDB’s approval)
TOC: Why did you not adopt any of these alternatives?
Yau: My ex-husband and I were on the verge of going separate ways. Impossible to stay as married couple for another 5 years. (TOC Note: This is what she tried to do but was told that it could only happen after they were divorced. The keys would have been handed over before the divorce was completed.)
TOC: As your then husband was co-owner, did you consult him on what to do?
Yau: No, I just asked him whether he’s agreeable to the owner names transfer or cancel.
TOC: Did you seek professional advice (i.e. advice from your lawyers or volunteer services such as marriage guidance)? If not why?
Yau: No, not volunteer services such as marriage guidance because my ex-husband is a gambler cum liar, so I think it’s not necessary.
TOC: Who advised you to cancelled? Did your then husband agree?
Yau: No one because since HDB and developer said I am not eligible to retain the house and they are not willing to wait till I finalized the divorce which will be after the key handling date. And I do not wish to keep the house together with my ex-husband. Since no other way to keep the house so got to cancel. He agreed.
TOC: Before you decided to cancel, did you know the terms of the forfeiture? Especially that you would bear the brunt of the forfeiture? If you knew, why did you decide to go ahead? If you didn’t why didn’t you find out? When did you find out.
Yau: I know there’s a 20% forfeiture, but I thought it was a 50-50 equal portion of forfeiture on each of us. Ms L told me the forfeiture is in accordance to the amount I paid for flat purchase. I know I am paying 60% of the house in monthly installment, but what they meant is the amount when it was first wiped out from our CPF, so for example if my ex-husband has zero balance in his CPF initially and all was deducted from my CPF, that means 100% of forfeiture would fall on me alone. That’s what they meant. I found out when I received the “Repudiation of sale and purchase agreement” letter from HDB and for this I had to ask before they emailed me one.
TOC: What were the terms of forfeiture?
Yau: I think I don’t have details.
TOC: What was the concession?
Yau: A 10% reduction from 20% forfeiture by developer.
TOC: What do you want the HDB to do? No forfeiture, or ask your now ex for more?
Yau: An equal portion of forfeiture on my ex-husband and myself cos right now I am paying 76.83% while he paid 23.17% of the total forfeiture.
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Actually I don’t really pity this couple. When you buy a house, you should know. Your planning failed, then just live with it. Hold for 5 years and sell it away and split the profit. Developers are operating a business. They don’t have an obligation to listen to your sad story.
Minister Khaw must take care of the HDB customer happiness quotient. HDB is also a 3rd party to marriage and family destroyer. PAP housing minister must have a compassionate heart, not a money face and black heart. Like a gangster and loan shark.
HDB is keeping people’s family, money and CPF hostage. It is in a hostage development business. Life long customer and multi-generation business.
Ms Yau knew about the forfeiture but did not take the trouble to find out the details. She is now unhappy that her ex is paying only 23.17% (about $19k) compared to her $44k. She wants the HDB to make her ex pay 50% of the forfeiture. Her lawyer should have made her ex do it when she divorced. Now she can only hope for compassion from HDB and her ex.
Things sure change very fast. From 2008 application to intention of divorce in 2009.
not again?
we attempt all ways to try n please the FTs and grant them countless ‘concessions’ even when they BLATANTLY REFUSE to accept the gvot ‘s offer to become SINGAPORE CITIZENS,preferring to remain permanently as PERMANENT RESIDENTS with all the ADVANTAGES of a non- committed ‘RESIDENT’.
BUT,each time our own BONA FIDE SINGAPOREANS ask for a WEE BIT LEEWAY,the PUBLIC SERVANTS try all means to block them?
WHO ARE ARE PUBLIC SERVANTS SERVING THESE DAYS?
Agree with Evan. Hold it for 5 years, sell and make a profit. Since the woman is paying most of the instalments, the court will probably rule that she gets the larger proceeds from the sale. HDB and developer not obligated to do anything for her.
Evan wrote:
“Actually I don’t really pity this couple. When you buy a house, you should know. Your planning failed, then just live with it. Hold for 5 years and sell it away and split the profit. Developers are operating a business. They don’t have an obligation to listen to your sad story.”
@ @ @ @ @
Hey Evan,
PAP needs more black-hearted jerks like you, that would make it easier for WP to win more GRCs in 2016. Keep it up!
Next time, go to http://www.sgdi.gov.sg. Search for the next higher or higest ranking officer and CC him/her.
Quality Service Manager LIM Randy, PPA(G), PBS rl1@hdb.gov.sg
Managing Director (HDB BRI) LAU Joo Ming, PPA(P)(Bar), PPA(P), PPA(G), PBS
64901003 ljm1@hdb.gov.sg
Chief Executive Officer Dr CHEONG-CHUA Koon Hean, PPA(E), PPA(P), PJG
hdbceo@hdb.gov.sg
Evan27 October 2011
Actually I don’t really pity this couple. When you buy a house, you should know. Your planning failed, then just live with it.
………….
me former kakis..2 couples in facts…
rom/combined to buy their dream 1st time hdb castle..owever thing went sour..both this 2 couples couldn’t bare to sleep together or even hold hands @ all..
lan lan they stay together for the compusolry 5 ears contracts and by that time..their hdb properties went up by values..they part happily after…
Erm this is a Hdb law that not married cannot keep flat right.
I’m sure the developers would be happy to proceed with the sale and take the money
If you cancel the offered flat, the penalty is about 2k.
As 1st world as most citizens like to think they are , many dare not ask what is shared in this article.
Thanks to TOC for providing us the information through the interview.
Thanks to the interviewed for sharing her woes.
INFORMATION is important. Let there be light. Let all information the People is entitled to have be KNOWN to all.
We should focus hard in this Direction.
Soon, we will see the light.
citizens are so fortunate to have TOC helping us get these kinds of information without us having to question by ourselves and we also not sure would we get this kinds of information.
A question a day.
365 big questions in 1 year.
By 2016, ha.
haa haa
Ha Ha Ha
HA HA HA HA
Wahahahahahaha !!!!
Nobody, especially the govt, should try and dictate to people to stick to broken marriages, in order to make a profit. What warped mindset and you are only banking on a continued property up cycle. No one really knows what will happen 5 years later. Stop controlling people’s lives by holding at stake a basic need called shelter.
C’mon, I see some of you here asking the couple to buy down the flat and wait for next 5 years when both of them are already in the process of divorcing. Let me ask you a simple question here, how do you expect 2 divorcing persons to go on with facing each other for another 5 more years? if they can then they wouldn’t have resort to divorcing each other, am I right? and also, anyone can guarantee that the flat would make a profit in the next 5 year’s time? As for the hdb customer service officer or manager, don’t expect much assistance from them, most if not all works eaither like robots or dead zombie, everything also dunno, you asked 1 question they answer you 1 liner . . . yes, no, can’t be help, it’s hdb/govt law so just follow (blindly!!!!)SOP for all garment servants, nothing new . . .
This is the problem with most Singaporeans.
If you dn’t knw or not sure–ask !
Nothing to be ashame of.
If can get good or convincing answer /even double check if necessary, always ask a Good Housing Agent for advise.
It would be even better if you ask to speak to the Agent Leader.
Dn’t ask and always “assume things” or “refuse” to act further “out of anger” or “out of pride”, often puts you in a losing position !
Nothing to lose for asking and for keep on asking ( sometimes face must be thick, sometimes must also act Blur and ask more to learn more )
Singaporeans are too shy, too timid and dare not demand. This kind of mindset must change in this Globalised world.
After things have happened and than you “raised the issue or complaint” is always “useless”.
You guys should know that our present Civil Servants learned from their Dept Head who in turns learn from their Master.
Anything to their advantage and “clear cut”, they will slap with “Law by law” reasons.
Anything if found to be their fault, they will delay ,act blur or “twist” to their favor.
The more realistic way in singapore in particular, perhaps is to adopt the western philosophy: just stay together, dont get married.
HDB should not allow Ms L, to deal with public.
It took ages for her to reply an email. She refused to meet Ms Yau face-to-face to answer her queries and help solve her dilemma. She gave curt reply – a one liner.
She gives me the impression she is aloof and arrogant – not a public servant. It is people like Ms L who cause PAP to lose even more votes.
with so many laws changing every second there is no doubt civil servants are rather confused and dare not give specific answers or valid advice for fear of divulging secretive or protected info. they are much caught in between.
it is not a surprise that in a small animal farm the humble cow is trying very very hard to clear the massive mess legacied by some breed of atrocious horse, making the little dog laugh as the cow tries to jump over the moon.
“It is people like Ms L who cause PAP to lose even more votes.”
Whats wrong with going public ?
Why are you protecting pap?
Are there shameful things that they fear exposed in public?
with singapore as a place where we have no confidence with the government, no confidence with the spf, no confidence with the media, no confidence even if we can keep our jobs,we might as where have everything exposed, let truths emerge that at least singaporeans can make their own independent judgement and decision.
@ Sickapore
I am not protecting the PAP.
I remember some years ago a retired Permanent Secretary made the remark that government (PAP) lost votes because of some civil servants. There is truth in what he said.
Don’t be surprise there are many Ms L inside HDB. Ms Yau should write a complaint to PM or Minister-in-Charge.
Should HDB go into social counselling? Clearly a good solution is not to divorce but no one of course will expect HDB to state it.
Most forget that HDB is still very much intended to cater to the mass market. That means less options and fixed products. I think in fairness, HDB was never meant to tackle social issues.
The question is whether HDB rules could have been bent. Easy to say ok. No one breaks a contract without reasons. In general if ok to do so, then could the developer do the same when it suits them?
I think the article lacks sufficient analysis which ends up giving a lop-sided perception.
When you’re paying $300K over for a 2 bedroom “subsidised” pigeon hole and you still have to meet all these ridiculous family nucleus requirement… it’s just nonsensical.
If they’re supposed to really provide housing, flats should be affordable and to have her pay a penalty while the flat can be sold to someone else easily is criminal of HDB.
HDB must provide free in house legal services to all buyers. The lawyer must explain to them what happen to the HDB when they divorce and all the legal and financial obligations, asset disposal and financial distribution. HDB must ask them to buy insurance for the HDB flat deposit forfeiture in the event they decide to split up, divorce or die before taking possession of the house.
Why those private developer for HDB flats must charge 20% forfeiture. HDB flat is public not private housing, got so many rules and not easy to dispose. HDB must take full or more responsibility towards the private developer risks of non proceed of sale or ask them buy insurance to cover their loss.
Divorce is very common, HDB must also relax more rules for those who divorce and must review their cherry status and prevent them from losing their cherry or eating more. HDB should not be a volatile futures trading asset.
Buyers pay for legal conveyancing. The lawyers should explain, rather than HDB. There are already more than enough sources of info including HDB website, brochures etc.
As to insurance, let’s not add to cost. HDB will have to make it compulsory insurance for ALL buyers to cater for this one or two cases. Ultimately, insurance company earns. No point.
More easy to just ensure people who can’t afford or don’t understand, don’t buy new feature property with new rules like DBSS etc. Stick to conventional HDB.
HDB is the owner of all HDB affordable apartments. They should bear the cost of the forfeiture of sales. The lessees should just pay 1-2 months “rental” deposit of the HDB flat as forfeiture.
HDB should take back all the HDB flat sales from the private open market to centralize sales with government control and price setting to regulate the market. They should not allow free market forces to inflate the price of the flats and become complicated and inflexible futures contracts with hot money coming in from foreigners. LKY must not swindle the daft Singaporeans from their fake asset appreciation scheme. This is unscrupulous trading by unrighteous mammon and penalize the future generations.
All HDB flat property agents “rental” commission must be co-broke with HDB as the main property owner/agent, commission will be peg to rental of the HDB “lease” with monthly recurrent rental commission scheme and clawback. HDB must give all the information regarding the property and its remaining lease value, future en-bloc potential risk on their online sales website portal. They must reveal the land price with sale of balance lease for cash out/monetize out of HDB for old estates and retiree income.
PAP must not say 80% of all Singaporeans own their homes. They must tell the world 80% of Singaporeans rent their public apartments at private market prices and will be evicted and homeless if they fall ill or unable to pay their rent. They will not even be allowed to camp in any government land or private land. They will be escorted to prison and subjected to humiliation for many years as a vagrant for being an errant tenant.
HDB has lost the aim and purpose of its creation. Their sole purpose is to provide cheap housing for the mass. From the 1980s it started thinking itself as a ‘coorperation’ (enforced by the PAPies)with a clear intention of making ‘business profit’.
JBJ time and again had questioned the price labels of HDB flats and the Papies finally blamed it on the Chief surveyor of Land for his estimates on the land value.
Well it is a mystery to many sane minded Singaporeans.
I would like to urge the readers to consider the confiscation of HDB properties from those who could not pay the instalments due to the downturn of the economy. Near thousands of families are in a quandary. That is why Mr Khaw is building more rented flats. This is progress in Papies style!!!!!!
u think those lazy civil “servant”s will give a flip abt the sufferings & plight of anyone?! All they want and care abt each day at “work” is to make sure they stay out of line of work. They make special efforts at avoiding any work and only care abt getting their mthly pay, yr end bonus & PB – as if they(mostly) ever perform anything.
but again, can we really fault them?! As the Chinese saying goes: 上梁不正，下梁歪 – if those at top are bad examples, don’t expect much from the followers.
Who’s been heading HDB all these years? – MBT. Who’s heading HDB now? What sort of examples hv they been giving. Who r those clowns reporting to – PAP. Ask yourself, does PAP cares abt us? Maybe they did…once a long time ago. But they hv gotten too used to unchallenged concentrated power, giving themselves celestial status n skyhigh pay, we, the people of Singapore, are nothing to them except their tools of enriching themselves. PAP, the SG gvnt, DOES NOT CARE ABT ITS CITIZENS. HENCE, THOSE WORKING UNDER THEM R THE SAME – APATHETIC, SELFISH, SELF-SERVING, SELF-CENTERED. I speak from personal experience wif HDB n other gvnt boards – they, like PAP whose their father, hide behind an entire thick wall of red tapes n self-generated rules n regulations, which are always increasing, to confuse pple, block access, for the sole purpose of protecting themselves in every aspects, including their own mistakes! BLOOD BE UPON THEIR HEADS!!! PAP N DOGS!
WELL IF THE HDB AUTHORITIES HIDE BEHIND THE WALL THEN LET THE AFFECTED PARTIES SUE HDB.
I am sure there are many public spirited Lawyers who will act on behalf of the affected parties.
I do not come here often, the reason being many readers’ comments are not much different from the mainstream, heartless Singaporeans. Just like the pap.
Life is never a guarantee. You will eventually meet unexpected events, like accidents, sickness, cancer etc. through no fault of their own. Than, you start looking for comfort or help. This society is rotten to its core and again just like the pap. Forty over years of stupid indoctrination. You reap what you sow Blah!
What goes around comes around!
Thank You.
PS: My deepest respect the people behind OLC keeping this only channels alive. OLC and readers may wish to go to a similar sites in the US call “Common Dream”. They are now battling to keep OWS (Occupy Wall Streets) going.
http://www.commondreams.org/
Correction, I mean “TOC” “The Online Citizen” and not “OLC”
http://www.commondreams.org/
Thanks
pap bastards are denying us Singaporeans the basic necessities of shelter.
Down with pap bastards.
Given 4 in 10 oppose paphamsterx ,could there be 4 in 10 working in civic servix who are oppo?
So, i urge oppo in civix servix continue in stealth mode.
But i am not suggesting trojanix .
I am also not alluding blowing trumpet whistler.
rules and regulations of the hdb and all gov crap is done by MAN, YOU MEAN THAT STUPID RULE CANNOT BE CHANGE, BEND, ???
ALL THE RULES, SUPPOSED REGULATIONS ARE DONE BY DOGS OF LKY !!!!!
STEALING THE PEOPLE’S MONEY IS PART OF THE SCAM,
LOCALS ARE DAFT……
BORDERS ON “STUPID”
Maybe Minister Mr Khaw should allow DBSS/ EC couples in such situation to sub-sale their unit to another eligible buyers, rather than requiring the couples to surrender the unit with forfeiture to developer to resell it at higher price
Has anyone, anywhere, anytime EVER hear that HDB was compassionate, helpful or determined to ensure every citizen has a roof over their heads, other than say but do otherwise?
Nope. Nada. Minus zero!
We have a vile administration in power and curses to the 60.1% who for selfish agendas, dragged everyone against injustices to their shallow rotting graves.
what’s the finale outcome to date,anyone,hdb, included?