The following is an excerpt of an article “The Big SlutWalk Singapore Trolling Wankfest of Doom 2011″ that was first published on SlutWalk Singapore’s website.
By Shimona Ng
The New Paper ran a story that distorted SlutWalk’s goals, which created a massive backlash against the campaign, sparked rage on the web, and drew an army of trolls to SlutWalk.
Three major ways The New Paper distorted SlutWalk’s goals
1. We believe “mentally raping” is actual rape
The New Paper made it seem like we equate “mentally raping” with rape. They printed these terrible quotes without any context:
The elderly man was staring down at me, as if he was mentally raping me. I asked him in Hokkien: ‘Uncle, what are you looking at?’ Then he looked away.
and
When a woman dresses up, she is bound to get some attention, but she is not asking for rape.
Why did they print this in a SlutWalk feature? Why didn’t they denounce it? Their intentions are clear: They wanted to turn the movement into a joke. They wanted to make people enraged. They might as well have printed: “I was playing StarCraft 2 and a bunch of banelings blew up all my marines, it was like being virtually raped.” Or, “I bought a lightsaber on eBay and got hit with a huge customs tax, it was like being fiscally raped.” Or, “I am a designer and I was forced to use Comic Sans, it was like being artistically raped”. What do all these statements have in common? All of it is irrelevant to SlutWalk. All of it trivialises rape and makes a mockery out of real suffering. All of it, and anything like it, should have been either A) not printed or B) printed and condemned by The New Paper. Instead, they printed it and left it floating in a vacuum.
People brilliantly decided this person was representative of everyone going for SlutWalk and hurled their hate at SlutWalk. The internet exploded with anger:
Arcturuz says: elderly man has every right to check you out bitch.
Societe says: Might as well erect laws to allow them to dig the eyes of guys whom they dont like out.
Fyukpap says: they are trying to legalize public scolding on men who “rape” them even with their eyes.
Badzmaro says: So now we are all presumed guilty until proven innocent?
Fudgester says: if they’re stupid enough to organize this idiotic event, they fully deserve all the ogling they’re gonna get on that day.
Elindra says: I cannot understand this SlutWalk movement. If you want to dress skimply, expect men to ogle.
2. We are a copy of a movement for “the right to dress sexy”
They tried to make it seem like SlutWalkSG was a blindly-copied, substanceless version of SlutWalk, with A) No sluttiness and B) No walking. They helpfully wrote:
But you don’t have to dress like a slut to take part in SlutWalk Singapore. And, oh, there is no walk either.
Unlike SlutWalks held in western countries where skimpy outfits to protest against sexual violence, SlutWalk Singapore organisers here urge supporters to “come as they are” – whether in T-shirt and jeans, fishnets, sari women thronged the streets in, jacket or tudung.
Why adopt the name SlutWalk when they have chosen to downplay the word “slut”?
They even had a whole separate article called “Experts: smart to give it a local twist”.
Every single SlutWalk has encouraged people to wear whatever they want. SlutWalk Austin proudly states on their Facebook page, they ‘encourage all to wear what feels comfortable’. SlutWalk Melbourne’s FAQ says there is “no need to dress differently from how you normally would.” SlutWalk San Francisco’s blog says, “Wear what makes you feel comfortable, whether that’s a tiny dress or a long-sleeve floor-length dress.”
And SlutWalk Singapore is no different — the clothes are not the point. The point is to break free from the shame created by traditional stereotypes and conventional ideas about sexuality, and reclaim the freedom to express our sexuality without fear of being labelled a certain way.
The New Paper also declares we are campaigning for “the right to dress sexy.”
They ran this on their front page:
Why protest? We want the right to dress sexy.
And they named their article “Slutty? We’re just sexy.”
Over and over again, they printed random nonsense about sexiness:
“… you can dress sexily and not look slutty.”
“We all have the right to dress sexy.”
“When we were young, our parents told us not to dress too sexy…”
Who said these things? The ramblings of a few people who they say ‘support’ SlutWalkSG; by The New Paper’s definition, anyone who says they might (or might not) turn up for SlutWalk. Or anyone who says dressing sexy is great (but only for people who have a “good figure”). Or anyone who thinks dressing sexy is fine except “we also need to be aware of the risk when we do so and take precautions.” Do any of these people sound like actual SlutWalk supporters?
Let’s get this straight: SlutWalk fights for the right to express our sexuality free from shame, hate and abuse. Sexuality is infinitely more complex and beautiful than “dressing sexy.” The New Paper twisted our mission into something people could make fun of without thinking critically about any of the issues surrounding sexual diversity, sex choices and freedom from sexual abuse.
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What do you expect from population who’s average mental age is 12.
TNP is the sort of papers that are used to wipe my dogs poo poo.
Boycott it long time ago
Some ladies behaved like an old conservative aunties when they wear sexy. That’s a big mentality problem.
SlutWalk Singapore must remain steadfast in carrying out its mission despite scurrilous remarks from its detractors. With the passage of time, it will be able to win acceptance and recognition as a bona fide organization.
SlutWalk is campaigning for the right to express sexuality free from shame, hate and abuse. TNP has again proved itself to be lacking in true professionalism. Half-truths and distortions are not helpful at all.
They don’t want us to think critically, they are masters of bending the truth by using simplicity. They have raped our brains!
a truly substance-less article.
the TNP one was more informative.
singapore knows, we know your sort and we don’t want them here.
you have your right to express your ‘sexuality’, you have the freedom to treat yourself however disrespectfully you want.
now you want to absolve the guilt that comes when you know what you do isn’t right.
thats called true enlightenment and freedom yeah?
you guys are right on one thing though, a slut, no matter how she dresses, is still a slut. you can try and dress up your campaign any way you want, but we won’t be fooled
I want to start a Chee Ko Pek Jalan.
I genuinely wish for a society where men are not dominated into agreeing with the social agenda that unhappy and ashamed women press ahead with.
I dream of a society free from the control of the internet and feminist thought police who try to condition the way MEN should think, even in the privacy of their own minds.
I believe that men should have the right to mentally rape or undress or do whatever perverted stuff he can come up with in his mind – in the privacy of his mind without feeling ashamed, free from hate and abuse.
Therefore I wish to start a walk to protest against this protest, and this would be best carried out by letting us tell these sluts whatever we want to, in whatever way we desire to, including telling them in the most vicarious detail what we would do to them in our mind of course not really acting it out.
And of course market this as our right (including women and children of course) to express our perversions free from shame, hate and abuse.
Just because I think like a pervert doesn’t mean I’m a pervert. Just because I mentally rape you doesn’t mean I’m a rapist. Just because I think feminists are idiots and want them out of my country doesn’t mean that I hate the feminist agenda. Just because I don’t make any sense in an argument on an issue doesn’t mean that its any less meaningful.
Oh wait….
Nevermind I just want to fight for the right to express our perversions free from shame, hate and abuse. Sexuality is infinitely more complex and beautiful than “my personal perversions.”
I feel so strongly that people should wear what they like to wear, what makes them feel good. Clothes are self-expression… Afterall the walk is attempting to bring attention to the fact that women are not asking to be rape simply because they dress a certain way.
Attitude and behavior of a person may stir things in a positive or negative ways. There is never a reasonable motive for attack/assault, only a need for a person’s own self-discipline, self-responsibility and self-respect is called for.
True happening – a family holiday to Phuket with children in tow. Near the hotel reception while waiting for service, plenty of chirpy “birds” loiter around in packs. The little boys noticed and asked his daddy this – “Daddy, how come this place has so many girls and so no men around them?”
What was dad’s smartie response? Ask your mommy! Obviously flabbergasted, and staring at her annoying hubby, told her kids – “your dad is drunk even before his drinking starts, he is an idiot!
Moral of the story is – if you dressed up in a G-string by choice in a SlutWalk protest march, do you seriously expect all little innocent children to stare at passing traffic instead of the exotic exhibits around, forget their fathers in tow?
Freedom of expression and mind thoughts walk both ways whatever “sexuality” that need adoring public exposure one prefers. If you wants to exhibit, be completely liberated of freedom to so express but also be proudly flattered and thankful of the attention given after you are so desperately seeking for. And don’t protest as if it is “shameful” of indignity to you.
Not every “bird” in Geylang gets the privilege of a stare – welcomed or unwelcomed – partly because not all straight men are “eager” to do your bidding. Those others that pay in Geylang, if they are so inclined to, calls the tune.
Not true?
@ TOC Mod- You did the right thing. :)
Seriously what is the purpose of slutwalk? You already got pink dot movement, another overlapping movement?
Why dont you just consolidate everything under one banner? Wouldn that make life easier for everyone else.
Then again, i find it hilarious that Singapore being westernized need to copy what other western countries do. See people slutwalk, also want to copy.
I never really trust newspapers 2 decades ago coz they twist facts to make their news juicy.
Can we make a police report about The New Paper and ask the Govt to shut it down? ;)
Baby reporting is the cause of them journalist becoming more and more unprofessional out of the “slant” reporting they have to do in the partisan news reporting arena here. Because they don’t even realise and know there are different ways of looking as in:
1. Admiring.
2. Amazed looking at beauty appreciated.
3. Lust looking due to whatever reasons.
4. “X-ray” looking in disbelief!
And so on. has this government been so fixated until people who work for them become mono-types in mindset?
@ Rockabyebaby
I agree with everything you said.
So Titiana is right when she said ” Rockabyebaby is one rare enlightened male”.
The New Paper is a tabloid. Nothing written in it should be taken seriously. At best, it is a time waster. At worst, it is causing global warming and killing trees.
What a person wears is their human right. We have autonomy for a reason and being able to wear what we want is completely in our own rights.
I support SlutWalk because it is about fighting for a woman’s right to dress how she chooses with fear of discrimination, physical and emotional abuse. Singapore should start seeing this movement as a benefit to their country because it advocates for their female population.
*without fear of discrimination…*
I apologize for the typo.
It has been announced that Mr Warren Fernandez will take over from Mr Han Fook Kwang as the editor of The Straits Times on Feb 15.
AFTER NINE YEARS>>TO LONG ON THE GRAVY TRAIN MR HAN.
Alas…new broom..same old.
First job of Mr Fernandez is to weed out all the OLD St hangers-on..who are there only because they cant go anywhere else. Second job is to allow Singaporeans to have a voice in the press..and not bin anything the St does not like. So present Forum editor needs to be replaced.
Finally Mr Fernandez says the ST paper will remain the peoples choice foe a long time.
HO HUM. ITS THE ONLY CHOICE.
WE HAVE HOBSONS.
ST and the gahmen..have made it this way.
dude, the new paper is a tabloid. it is their job to sensationalize things.
This discussion is heavily centered on the word ‘slut’ and its connotations.
The purpose of the SlutWalk is to shed light on the all-too-common practice of victim-blaming. It is to remind our society that all human beings, both women and men, have the right to enjoy the same level of safety and security. Both women and men have the right to not live in fear of sexual violence.
Rape is never the fault of the victim/survivor, no matter what society has been telling us about how women should dress. Rape is always the fault of the rapist.
Simple, right?
I find it laughable someone would even think some campaign proudly bearing the name “Slut” actually warrants anything remotely serious a response. If the Slut-whatever organizers are really sincere about the plight of women unfairly blamed for being rape victims, then what they should do is launch an awareness campaign instead. Make people understand where the blame should lie. Instead, the only thing they succeeded was to ensure me of SlutWalk irrelevance and the mental age of the people behind it. Don’t even need to meet them, just read the headline is enough. Trolling Wankfest of Doom? Ooh, how clever, 12-year-old clever. Well, not that I care though. They can call themselves sluts for all I care while I treat other women with dignity more that SlutWalk is capable of receiving in its entire lifetime.
You can se that the gahmen has put in place ..at the helm of the lap dog ST..their own man. Like previously.
To jaga all the muppets.
By the way, who takes THE NEW PAPER seriously.. hor!!!
@Laumahu
Precisely, TNP is no serious newspaper. To suggest it has some clout to turn public opinion in Singapore is quite imaginative and ridiculous. SlutWalk draws ire and ridicule because their choice word does not sit well with the fairly conservative, Asian society in Singapore. Only SlutWalk organizers and their supporters are blind enough not to see it.
@GunBlaze
You’re full of BS. You treat women with dignity and yet you don’t take two minutes to find out what the SlutWalk is all about. Yep, you treat all women with dignity, just not the organisers of SlutWalk because they are behind “SlutWalk” and therefore must be “sluts”, not worthy of your respect. So much for your proclamation of treating women with dignity!
Oh yeah, a campaign on rape awareness will have people like you posting how rape can be prevented by women not tempting the rapists i.e. by not dressing provocatively (i.e. like sluts who obviously are not deserving of any respect). You will continue to repeat this despite showing it is a myth.
And are you really ignorant to not know how the word slut (or its equivalent terms) is used against any woman who doesn’t dress or behave according to what you perceive to be becoming of a “good” woman? That even a woman in a headscarf could be called a slut by someone because they think she may be wearing too much make-up?
Are you really that clueless? Or are you just not worldly enough?
@TM
You are the one full of garbage.
The word slut is an insult, and will always be an insult. How will claiming slut is some kind of badge of honor helps the women who actually suffer from rape? And you can even make some baseless claim of me agreeing that women are raped because they tempt men with their provocative dresses when I hold the opposite opinion. Are you really that clueless? Go back and reread my posts.
And, please, I do know what slut walk claims to be championing. My contention is the naive revisionist thinking that if you can “claim” the insulting word slut for women you will stop mysoginy for good. One just need to apply the same logic to word nigger, coon, fag, cina, etc to see how Nigger Walk, Coon Walk is not helping but demeaning instead. I have said it before and I will say it again, slut walk is irrelevant. Better ways to address the stigma have existed long before slut walk came. You think all these laws protecting equality, human rights and freedom of expression of women only came after this campaign? Surely you jest. Do you see judges, TV commentators or journalists in Singapore proclaim scantily clad women are sluts? No? Precisely, the majority of Singaporeans know better before you even spew your diatribe. Calling others who do not share your enthusiasm with slut walk ignorant is quite small-minded of you indeed.
By the way, has it occurred to you that slut walk only happens in countries where there is a modicum of women rights in legal system? Do you know that in certain countries, women are considered worth only half of man and is often jailed or hanged for the crime of being raped? These women live their life in constant fear, trying keep themselves invisible and hope that they would not get raped one day and then killed for shaming their family. Their plight is far more urgent than some Canadian whose sensibilities were offended because of some thoughtless remark by a local cop, yet you barely hear a sound from leading feminist groups. What does that tell you about their priorities? Why don’t they arrange slut walk in those countries instead? I guess it wasn’t such a worthwhile cause after all?
Slut walk tries the shock approach, and it receives backlash here mainly because of culture clash between Western values and Asian values. This is not the first time it happens, and this is not the last. Claiming TNP is the cause is willful ignorance. Only the obvious is lost to people like you.
@Gunblaze
SlutWalk will not get rid of misogyny overnight …. nobody is claiming it will (Are you naive? Do all marches and protests change behaviour overnight?). One thing it does is to examine the labels we slap on people like “slut”. We may think we know what it means and how it used (on women who dress scantily). But in reality the word “slut” is used against any woman whose attire and behaviour displeases someone else. We also don’t realise that one person’s vision of elegance is another person’s sluttiness. In other words, “slut” is subjective. Surely, you are aware of these points? (BTW – have you been called a slut? Wait, no, you are a man. I was. I was in my school uniform. By some random man. In Singapore. Because my hair was combed a certain way. So, don’t give me the BS about how it is actually used.)
And just because “judges, TV commentators and journalists” don’t use it does not mean it is not used in society. If society is all so understanding and careful of how it uses the word “slut”, why is the reporting of rapes very low compared to other crimes? It is because the victim is made to feel she invited it, somehow, either by her dressing or her mannerism. In other words, she is made to feel a “slut” and, as you say, slut is an insult; it is negative and bad, is it not? Why don’t you look at Section 157(d) (soon to be repealed) and see how the victim could be treated in courts. And this might shock you – do you know that one of the underlying impetuses for the move to repeal Section 157(d) was the SlutWalk Singapore? No? Read the article on AWARE’s website.
At the website of SlutWalk Singapore, the first thing you would have picked up is how varied the word “slut” can be, and that anybody and everybody can be a slut. If you truly respected women’s dignity, you would have engaged the organisers on the use of the word, and the images behind them, instead of dismissing them as being juvenile. The fact that you would dismiss the walk out of hand despite claiming to knowing its objectives is telling to say the least.
As for your point about feminists not working with women in countries where women are treated horribly, how do you know? Are you privy to every work done by the feminists? How do you know there is no co-operation between the feminists in countries with “modicum of women’s rights in legal system” and feminists in these countries? Would it make sense to trumpet the work given the conditions? Are you naive? Also, are you critical of human rights workers for not having parachuted into communist countries and organising marches there? And are you also critical of people taking to the streets to demand better conditions for whatever groups in countries with “modicum” of human rights laws in their legal systems? (I guess we are all supposed to be satisfied with a modicum of something or other).)
As for your Western values vs Asian values (seriously, what are asian values? What are western values?), surely you are aware that SlutWalk, although started in Canada, is very much driven by local initiatives, and that you have such walks in Latin America, Africa and Asia (e.g. Korea, HongKong, India, Malaysia, Singapore)? Why do you give local (Asian) women so little credit for being intelligent and being able to make up their own minds? Has it ever crossed your mind because some experiences transcend borders and cultures?
Also what nonsense is this statement – “You think all these laws protecting equality, human rights and freedom of expression of women only came after this campaign?” Who claimed this? Although see my point on Section 157(d) above.
Oh, you say “Better ways to address the stigma have existed long before slut walk came.” Like what? Do share.
As for your very last sentence regarding the backlash and TNP, I suggest you read the opening paragraph of the article posted here. Again.
@TM
“We may think we know what it means and how it used (on women who dress scantily). But in reality the word “slut” is used against any woman whose attire and behaviour displeases someone else. We also don’t realise that one person’s vision of elegance is another person’s sluttiness. In other words, “slut” is subjective”
Garbage. Don’t anyhow make your own interpretation. The definition of the word slut has not changed and is not subjective.
slut (noun – derogatory)
1. promiscuous woman
2. slovenly dressed woman
That one was lifted from Oxford 1996. You can go check other definitions online or book copy by yourself. Definition is fairly consistent in time with different publishers. The only thing you can contend about is just how much a woman’s behavior/clothing influence the labeling, which again goes back to my point: value difference in society.
“BTW – have you been called a slut? Wait, no, you are a man. I was. I was in my school uniform. By some random man. In Singapore. Because my hair was combed a certain way. So, don’t give me the BS about how it is actually used.”
Ah, typical arrogant diatribe of how a man is not allowed an opinion for a simple reason of not being a woman. How refreshing, and enlightening. You have my sympathy for your plight though, whatever little it’s worth to you.
“Are you naive? Do all marches and protests change behaviour overnight?”
And since when do I claim the world will change overnight? My discontent is how such a word is bandied around despite the its awfully insulting nature. And don’t even try to claim I do not know how the Slut Walk name came to be. It was specifically picked to provoke and elicit outrage. The official Slut Walk site says as much. Well, they got the outrage alright, so why is it such a mystery then? My point stands, people like you can’t see the obvious.
“why is the reporting of rapes very low compared to other crimes? It is because the victim is made to feel she invited it, somehow, either by her dressing or her mannerism. In other words, she is made to feel a “slut””
Oh really? Because statistics actually show increasing number of reported rape. Whether or not it mean anything to you, I digress; disputing numbers is not really my forte. And besides, how hard is it to understand that maybe, just maybe, the victim did not report simply because being ashamed of anyone finding out, not because someone “magically” made her feel like slut? No doubt this shame is stronger in Asia countries, where chastity is strongly favored as a virtue. Again my point, cultural difference.
“If you truly respected women’s dignity, you would have engaged the organisers on the use of the word, and the images behind them, instead of dismissing them as being juvenile. The fact that you would dismiss the walk out of hand despite claiming to knowing its objectives is telling to say the least.”
Telling of what? That I think slut title is actually demeaning for a movement claiming to help raise awareness of rape culture? Yeah, it is. So what? Am I not entitled for my opinion? Who are you to claim my opinion disrespected women for not embracing word slut wholeheartedly? Besides, do I demand the movement be stopped or verbally assault anyone? And can you take seriously an article titled of “The Big Kahuna Troll Wanking of PURE WIN!!LLOOL!Z”? Neither can I.
“seriously, what are asian values? What are western values?”
Western values are a broad umbrella of norms, ethics, customs, traditions, beliefs and political systems originating from Europe culture which is rooted in Greek civilization and Christianity, while Asian values are rooted in various South, South-East and East Asia civilizations, contrasts between both are major emphasis in individual rights vs social good, political freedom vs single party rule, liberal vs traditional, uninhibited expression (includes sexuality) vs restraint. Surely you know this?
“As for your point about feminists not working with women in countries where women are treated horribly, how do you know? Are you privy to every work done by the feminists?”
Go find out more about the women rights problem in Middle East nations, who the leftist groups supported there and what advice they are giving to women sexually assaulted in those places instead of spouting nonsense when you know nothing. I have made my claim and stand by it, if you want to rebut me at least find something more credible than plain ignorance…
“Also, are you critical of human rights workers for not having parachuted into communist countries and organising marches there?”
I think I know which one you’re referring to. What, you believe that country is still communist? With all the rampant ultra-nationalism, I thought you would have known better.
“And are you also critical of people taking to the streets to demand better conditions for whatever groups in countries with “modicum” of human rights laws in their legal systems?”
That is within their rights, provided it didn’t degenerate to anarchy, arson or looting. So, how are they relevant when they don’t even attach the word slut under their protest banner? Oh, by the way, had I been the one to compare workers protest to rape-culture, no doubt you would see me as insensitive, just an observation.
“I guess we are all supposed to be satisfied with a modicum of something or other”
I had meant “more than a modicum”, quite obvious when countries where slut walks are organized turn out to be quite progressive. I did slip on my sentence, so yeah, I’ll give you that.
“Why do you give local (Asian) women so little credit for being intelligent and being able to make up their own minds? Has it ever crossed your mind because some experiences transcend borders and cultures?”
And where do I claim that? Perhaps you mistaken earlier posters who claim Sg women just copy slut walk with me? And can you stop putting words in my mouth? It’s hard to take you seriously otherwise.
“Why don’t you look at Section 157(d) (soon to be repealed) and see how the victim could be treated in courts. And this might shock you – do you know that one of the underlying impetuses for the move to repeal Section 157(d) was the SlutWalk Singapore?”
Soo, what? Aren’t you happy it got repealed? And what makes you think the existence of this law is news to me? And where does it state that the impetus to remove Section 157(d) was slut walk? From what I have read, the credit belongs to AWARE instead.
“Also what nonsense is this statement – “You think all these laws protecting equality, human rights and freedom of expression of women only came after this campaign?” Who claimed this? Although see my point on Section 157(d) above.
Oh, you say “Better ways to address the stigma have existed long before slut walk came.” Like what? Do share.”
Equality for women already existed long before slut walk, despite bumps in the long road of laws revision and social acceptance. Women from the previous decades had no rights to vote, right to own properties, expected to stay home and not compete with men in careers. In many countries they still can’t. Compared to the privileged life you lead here your nonsensical proclamation sounds hollow. Can you say with a straight face that none of this matters in your life, that you are not enjoying the fruits of men and women who made it possible for you to live freely in a modern society that acknowledges women rights? I do hope you will not be so crass to dismiss them outright next time.
“As for your very last sentence regarding the backlash and TNP, I suggest you read the opening paragraph of the article posted here. Again.”
For all your comprehension power, I still can’t tell if you’re serious or purposely avoiding to address my argument. And I already posted my opinion on this, twice. Go back and read my above posts. TNP is no serious newspaper. It only knows how to sensationalize news. It has no influence over public opinion. All the posts made in Sgforums, Hardwarezone, Stomp, etc are not copies of TNP forum. They reflect the current online mood on slut walk. Even some TOC posters don’t see the point of slut walk. You really think none of them has the intelligence to go check what slut walk is about before posting their opinion? What a nonsense.
Next time you answer stick to proper debating instead of baseless assumptions.
(Because of the long post, I have divided it into parts.)
PART I
“Garbage. Don’t anyhow make your own interpretation. The definition of the word slut has not changed and is not subjective.”
So, everyone who hurls the word at women is using it the same way are they? A conservative religious person is going to label a woman the same way as a bohemian does?
“The only thing you can contend about is just how much a woman’s behavior/clothing influence the labeling, which again goes back to my point: value difference in society.”
What is this, if not being subjective? And even within Singapore, does everyone agree exactly what a slut is, how she dresses and behaves?
“Ah, typical arrogant diatribe of how a man is not allowed an opinion for a simple reason of not being a woman. How refreshing, and enlightening. You have my sympathy for your plight though, whatever little it’s worth to you.”
So a man can be called a slut? That’s news to me, apologies. Who says you are not allowed to have an opinion? I merely said you would not have ever been called a slut by virtue of your gender, and gave an example where I was called a slut. So, don’t get your knickers into a knot.
“And since when do I claim the world will change overnight? My discontent is how such a word is bandied around despite the its awfully insulting nature. And don’t even try to claim I do not know how the Slut Walk name came to be. It was specifically picked to provoke and elicit outrage. The official Slut Walk site says as much. Well, they got the outrage alright, so why is it such a mystery then? My point stands, people like you can’t see the obvious.”
You said “My contention is the naive revisionist thinking that if you can “claim” the insulting word slut for women you will stop mysogny for good.”
Which is akin to saying that SlutWalk will change misogyny overnight because it is all about claiming the word “slut”.
Again, there is no assertion that claiming the word will stop the misogyny for good. I wish I had the chutzpah, when I was in school, to say to the man who had called me a slut, “Yeah, I am! What’s your problem?”, and had the knowledge to realise the word slut is used as an intimidation and is meaningless, and that was his problem, not mine. And you’re right – “It was specifically picked to provoke and elicit outrage.” Outrage against victim blaming, outrage against slut-shaming, outrage against that an officer of law can actually repeat a rape myth which has been debunked in studies, outrage that women are told don’t get raped rather than telling men not to rape, and that no means no.
“Oh really? Because statistics actually show increasing number of reported rape. Whether or not it mean anything to you, I digress; disputing numbers is not really my forte. And besides, how hard is it to understand that maybe, just maybe, the victim did not report simply because being ashamed of anyone finding out, not because someone “magically” made her feel like slut? No doubt this shame is stronger in Asia countries, where chastity is strongly favored as a virtue. Again my point, cultural difference.”
If the victim was instead robbed or her house burgled or if she were swindled, would she feel the same shame? Would she be fearful that someone would find out? What are the chances of her reporting these crimes vs her rape? Why is it, in cases of rape, the victim is ashamed of someone finding out? Is it because she might be blamed for the rape? That it could be assumed somehow that it was her fault for getting raped, that somehow her attire and behaviour resulted in rape? And where do you think she got this message from? And since chastity is strongly favoured in Asian countries, does the burden once again not fall on the victims to stay silent, because if you are not chaste, then you are a slut? Is this not slut shaming and victim blaming?
Go to AWARE’s website, and read more about the article on their befrienders service, and how many who call them actually report their rape to their authorities.
“Telling of what? That I think slut title is actually demeaning for a movement claiming to help raise awareness of rape culture? Yeah, it is. So what? Am I not entitled for my opinion? Who are you to claim my opinion disrespected women for not embracing word slut wholeheartedly? Besides, do I demand the movement be stopped or verbally assault anyone? And can you take seriously an article titled of “The Big Kahuna Troll Wanking of PURE WIN!!LLOOL!Z”? Neither can I.”
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but read what you have written. The title of the article was in response to an article in TNP, not exactly the WSJ, and it reflects that. It is your prerogative to not accept the word slut, but to live in denial on how it is actually used is something that does not sit well with me. You keep claiming you are familiar with SlutWalk and what it hopes to achieve, but your objection seem to revolve purely around the word slut. Which suggests you have a big hang-up on the word, and cannot get past it (and the supposed juvenile nature of the organisers) to critically evaluate the other objectives of SlutWalk. They are people who are uncomfortable with the word slut, but nevertheless, they have the balls and brains to engage with the organisers to learn more, because they support the goals of the SlutWalk and really care about the problem of victim blaming.
“Western values are a broad umbrella of norms, ethics, customs, traditions, beliefs and political systems originating from Europe culture which is rooted in Greek civilization and Christianity, while Asian values are rooted in various South, South-East and East Asia civilizations, contrasts between both are major emphasis in individual rights vs social good, political freedom vs single party rule, liberal vs traditional, uninhibited expression (includes sexuality) vs restraint. Surely you know this?”
Well, bravo for knowing the definitions of western and asian values. Well done for repeating the same old, same old. Do you know that in Europe, individual rights, political freedom etc are relatively “recent” (as far as historical milestones are concerned) developments? That uninhibited expression (including sexuality) is even more recent? That anti-homosexual laws were only repealed in Britain in the late sixties? Are South Asian views on politics the same as someone from East Asia? Is modesty the same in India as in China? That some don’t even consider Philippines Asian enough because they are Catholic (and therefore supposedly liberal)? What are you talking about?
(In case it is not obvious, this and the previous posts are in response to Gunblaze.)
PART II
“Go find out more about the women rights problem in Middle East nations, who the leftist groups supported there and what advice they are giving to women sexually assaulted in those places instead of spouting nonsense when you know nothing. I have made my claim and stand by it, if you want to rebut me at least find something more credible than plain ignorance…”
Give me a break! You are conflating the government support of the current regimes with feminists? Well since you are the expert, please do tell me what advice the leftist groups (whoever they are) are giving to women sexually assaulted in the Middle East? All you claimed was women are suffering in countries where their worth is less than that of the men. And that feminists are ignoring their plight and are not organising slutwalks there. And then you get hot and bothered under your collar when the idiocy of the argument about feminists is pointed out. Are you being facetious?
“I think I know which one you’re referring to. What, you believe that country is still communist? With all the rampant ultra-nationalism, I thought you would have known better.”
Well, I don’t. Please re-read the sentence. I said “for not having parachuted” meaning in the past i.e. when communism was alive and kicking.
“That is within their rights, provided it didn’t degenerate to anarchy, arson or looting. So, how are they relevant when they don’t even attach the word slut under their protest banner? Oh, by the way, had I been the one to compare workers protest to rape-culture, no doubt you would see me as insensitive, just an observation.”
What are you on about? Workers protest is analogous to rape culture? You lost me there! Go back and read what I have written, again, this time remembering the context under which it was mentioned.
“And where do I claim that? Perhaps you mistaken earlier posters who claim Sg women just copy slut walk with me? And can you stop putting words in my mouth? It’s hard to take you seriously otherwise.”
Based on your claim that the backlash is mainly due to clash of cultural values. Your talk of the backlash being due to western vs asian values shows that you have no clue as to the opposition SlutWalk faced in other countries (in fact your claim of knowing SlutWalk seems only superficial). You talk as if the backlash took the organisers completely by surprise. Go and trawl the internet, and see the opposition to the SlutWalk in the west as well as in the east. What you will learn is that misogyny and prejudices know no borders and are not confined to any culture.
“Soo, what? Aren’t you happy it got repealed? And what makes you think the existence of this law is news to me? And where does it state that the impetus to remove Section 157(d) was slut walk? From what I have read, the credit belongs to AWARE instead.”
Did I say the existence of the law was news to you? Anyway, if you knew the law was in existence, did you not think it was a form for victim blaming or slut shaming? And you say so what if SlutWalk had played a part in the journey towards repeal? Do you really hate SlutWalk that much?
I’m very happy that it was replaced; even happier it was due to efforts of people who are sometimes criticised unfairly. And I suggest you (re-)read the article on AWARE’s website where credit was given to SlutWalk Singapore among others by AWARE themselves.
“Equality for women already existed long before slut walk, despite bumps in the long road of laws revision and social acceptance. Women from the previous decades had no rights to vote, right to own properties, expected to stay home and not compete with men in careers. In many countries they still can’t. Compared to the privileged life you lead here your nonsensical proclamation sounds hollow. Can you say with a straight face that none of this matters in your life, that you are not enjoying the fruits of men and women who made it possible for you to live freely in a modern society that acknowledges women rights? I do hope you will not be so crass to dismiss them outright next time.”
Again I ask – was there a claim that SlutWalk began the fight for women’s rights? That SlutWalk was responsible for them? And you really think the fight for equality is over? That everything is hunky-dory? Also, how do you think women fought for their rights in the first place? Over tea and cucumber sandwiches? Without the support of brave men and women? Without provoking outrage? What are you on about with your “I do hope you will not be so crass to dismiss them outright next time.”? Who dismissed what? You are not making any sense at all.
Again, you avoid my question. You said “Better ways to address the stigma have existed long before slut walk came.” So I ask again, please explain yourself. What was done to remove the stigma?
“For all your comprehension power, I still can’t tell if you’re serious or purposely avoiding to address my argument. And I already posted my opinion on this, twice. Go back and read my above posts. TNP is no serious newspaper. It only knows how to sensationalize news. It has no influence over public opinion. All the posts made in Sgforums, Hardwarezone, Stomp, etc are not copies of TNP forum. They reflect the current online mood on slut walk. Even some TOC posters don’t see the point of slut walk. You really think none of them has the intelligence to go check what slut walk is about before posting their opinion? What a nonsense.”
If Sgforums, Hardwarezone, Stomp, etc reflect the current online mood, then all the more reason the topic needs to be tackled boldly. What do you think? Do you think what the online readers have expressed is justified or based on ignorance? Don’t you see that they are blaming the victims? That they are spreading rape myths?
Well, if the opponents of SlutWalk had checked out the website, and read the manifesto, and seen the videos, then either (i) their comprehension skills are questionable or (ii) they are bad at expressing themselves. I have yet to see an intelligent response (from what I have read so far online) why someone is against the SlutWalk. All I get is (paraphrasing of course) “Of course I don’t blame the victims, but women must take some responsibility if they don’t want to be victim. They must not tempt rapists. It’s similar to preventing robbery. Women should also avoid lonely places”, or “why are encouraging women to dress like sluts” or “why not have a rape prevention campaign”, conveniently forgetting that the same old useless advice on attire/behaviour will be dished out, by the same naysayers. And facts such as women have the right to dress as they see fit and no means no are lost.
You see, naysayers somehow cannot accept the fact that vast majority of rapes are committed by perpetrators already known to victims, that the attire of the victim has no influence on whether she gets raped, and rapes are pre-meditated and are not carried out some dark alleys. The information is there, but the refusal to accept is very puzzling indeed. Why don’t you give me the reason?
“Next time you answer stick to proper debating instead of baseless assumptions.”
Look who’s talking.
“And I fathom how anyone can even think of such a demeaning campaign.”
Typo. I meant “can’t fathom”
@TM
” So, everyone who hurls the word at women is using it the same way are they? A conservative religious person is going to label a woman the same way as a bohemian does? What is this, if not being subjective? And even within Singapore, does everyone agree exactly what a slut is, how she dresses and behaves? ”
Is that the best you can do, playing word games? The consensus of the population can be quantified rather easily. Nobody is disputing the way word slut is used, only your overactive imagination demands it. And yes, it does depend on societal norms, which is more real than you give credits for. An extreme example is Saudi Arabia, where women who don’t wear veil to cover herself is considered loose women (the equivalent word slut in Arabic is more equivalent to prostitute than mere slovenly dressed). The women might disagree, some people might disagree, but the general consensus there just is. So it’s not as random or relative to individual like you’re trying to mislead me into. Cultural relativity does not equal to mere difference in opinion. Singapore is far more free than Arab countries, but the society here still has its conservative root. No doubt tolerance in Singapore is higher, but strut around posing in Brazilian bikini at the roadside, and you can bet your career the Singapore public will be outraged, some even go as far as calling you slut. A very simple concept, yes?
“So a man can be called a slut? That’s news to me, apologies. Who says you are not allowed to have an opinion? I merely said you would not have ever been called a slut by virtue of your gender, and gave an example where I was called a slut. So, don’t get your knickers into a knot.”
Of course not, how silly of you to argue over something as asinine as that. Slut by definition applies to female after all. Men can be called man-hoe, though the effect no doubt is reduce due to the prevailing Western view that the more he scores, the more manly he is. And I commend on you for backpedaling on your earlier statement of how I shouldn’t comment on how slut word is used. I was afraid that I’m dealing with a rather opinionated woman who stubbornly wants to win over every single sentence. Glad to see I was wrong. Quite silly of you to assume I felt anger instead of amusement over that one though.
“You said “My contention is the naive revisionist thinking that if you can “claim” the insulting word slut for women you will stop mysogny for good.” Which is akin to saying that SlutWalk will change misogyny overnight because it is all about claiming the word “slut”. ”
Ah yes, the great semantics problem. Here let me reworded it so you can fit my intent better within your limited understanding: I don’t see how or what is the purpose of so called claiming the word slut since it will not have any effect on misoginy problem, not gonna stop anything, not going to change anything. Is that better?
” Why is it, in cases of rape, the victim is ashamed of someone finding out? Is it because she might be blamed for the rape? That it could be assumed somehow that it was her fault for getting raped, that somehow her attire and behaviour resulted in rape? And where do you think she got this message from? And since chastity is strongly favoured in Asian countries, does the burden once again not fall on the victims to stay silent, because if you are not chaste, then you are a slut? Is this not slut shaming and victim blaming?”
Another garbage. Stop projecting your wishful thinking into the real world. The shame of anyone finding out I talked about has more with the concept of losing face in Chinese societies, which is a whole different beast. No one blames the poor girls in these Chinese communities as sluts, only your vanity demands it. Oh, I’m sure some outsiders might do so, but that it besides the point.
” It is your prerogative to not accept the word slut, but to live in denial on how it is actually used is something that does not sit well with me. You keep claiming you are familiar with SlutWalk and what it hopes to achieve, but your objection seem to revolve purely around the word slut. Which suggests you have a big hang-up on the word, and cannot get past it (and the supposed juvenile nature of the organisers) to critically evaluate the other objectives of SlutWalk. They are people who are uncomfortable with the word slut, but nevertheless, they have the balls and brains to engage with the organisers to learn more, because they support the goals of the SlutWalk and really care about the problem of victim blaming.”
I don’t quite get you about the denial part. I said it is an insult. You agreed it is an insult. So what’s the problem then? Why on earth can’t you move beyond that? And funny how you accuse me of being hung up about the word when you are the one getting outraged over my insistence to keep my opinion to myself. And besides, I don’t see anything like embarassment you mention in slut walk, only the daring for confrontation so far. But I suppose I can accept your words if you really are in touch with the organizers feelings.
” Well, bravo for knowing the definitions of western and asian values. Well done for repeating the same old, same old. Do you know that in Europe, individual rights, political freedom etc are relatively “recent” (as far as historical milestones are concerned) developments? That uninhibited expression (including sexuality) is even more recent? That anti-homosexual laws were only repealed in Britain in the late sixties? Are South Asian views on politics the same as someone from East Asia? Is modesty the same in India as in China? That some don’t even consider Philippines Asian enough because they are Catholic (and therefore supposedly liberal)? What are you talking about?”
Thank you. Well, you sound like you genuinely clueless about it, and I had no idea you were being a troll. Compared to monarchies doctrine of divine authority, true. Yes, I know that. Ok. Depends on what syates being compared to. If you’re talking about state of undress for women, yes. Acoording to which sources, if you can even provide them? Plain, simple English, which is lost to you.
” What are you on about? Workers protest is analogous to rape culture? You lost me there! Go back and read what I have written, again, this time remembering the context under which it was mentioned.”
Sigh, context, context, context. How quick someone turns to blame context when she couldn’t even express herself articulately in plain English.
” Again, you avoid my question. You said “Better ways to address the stigma have existed long before slut walk came.” So I ask again, please explain yourself. What was done to remove the stigma?”
Oh, apologies. I had not meant to blow off you before, it’s just that I can’t let pass such a thoughtless remark that everything done to promote equality of human beings regardless of gender is nonsense. One would think you were being an ingrate. Now, better ways are like rape laws, before in Common Law only utmost resistance can be considered rape. Now it covers spousal rape, age of consent, further refining of rape definitions also cover drug rape and coercions. Also the formation of international human charter which declares all human have basic rights regardless of gender, which have large impact on how laws were written, including rape laws. And also liberalisation of women roles from traditional confines. That means freedom of expression, including their sexuality. Help centers for rape victims, women rights group since you like quoting AWARE so much. Police mobilization, which managed to result in lower rape rate for the first time in 2010 after the alarming climbing trend. Is the general list enough to sate your curiosity?
” Do you think what the online readers have expressed is justified or based on ignorance? Don’t you see that they are blaming the victims? That they are spreading rape myths?
Well, if the opponents of SlutWalk had checked out the website, and read the manifesto, and seen the videos, then either (i) their comprehension skills are questionable or (ii) they are bad at expressing themselves.”
How laughable. You remind me of a street salesman who blame the crowd for not being receptive instead of wondering whether his presentation skills sucks. A little introspection is in order; There is a reason for the outrage, work around it and reach out instead of of getting defensive and writing some garbage piece of rant lambasting the online community as trolls. This kind of reaction only burn whatever little bridge left to reach out. Do I need to mention how immature it is as well, unbefitting of rape awareness movement?
” You see, naysayers somehow cannot accept the fact that vast majority of rapes are committed by perpetrators already known to victims, that the attire of the victim has no influence on whether she gets raped, and rapes are pre-meditated and are not carried out some dark alleys. The information is there, but the refusal to accept is very puzzling indeed. Why don’t you give me the reason?”
Another wishful thinking in your part? Can you even point to one of the so called naysayers? Plenty of educated people out there, males included, who can do proper research and connect the dots. Nobody in Singapore is in support of rape, contrary to your stereotypical feminist depiction of males. If you cannot see, then that is your own shortcoming.
” Look who’s talking.”
Funny how you prove my point exactly, yet still attempt the pot-kettle reversal. Well, the kettle unfortunately is not black Mrs Pot, so you can keep wasting time writing hogwash if you must.
Just here to say that I agree wholeheartedly with Gunblaze and applaud the well-written and rational defense of her opinion.
*his/her..!
I totally agree with Gunblaze interpretation as well…TM is just being opininated.
grown women acting like spoiled children isn’t much of a “movement” as much as my shit is a “movement”